November 12, 2019, 12:52:28 PM

Author Topic: An interesting article about Dalglish  (Read 4666 times)

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
An interesting article about Dalglish
« on: June 15, 2011, 01:49:07 PM »
'Reds' Blind Kenny Trust Is Dangerous'

Posted 15/06/11


Imagine If Hodgson Was Buying British Mediocrity...

I'm going to write a mail now which will easily anger the (easily angered) Scousers and my fellow Liverpool fans. I expect to be met with furious anger as the Redmen come out searching for me with firey sticks with their half-burned effigy of Roy Hodgson being held aloft like a trophy (with it being as close as we get to a trophy these days). But I'd like to stress I disapproved of Hodgson being appointed last summer, I agreed he was the wrong man for us and I was happy when he was finally given his marching orders. His press conferences were moronic, attitude defeatist, tactics out of date and submissive and expectation level in the basement.

However it seems to me Liverpool's two managers in recent months are treated different by the fans for doing some of the same things. I'm seeing fans on message boards say "we cant criticise Kenny, he has more experience than us, so shut up!" funny, we had no issue criticising the experienced Roy back in the summer and more violently in December. Obviously results speak for themselves but it is interesting how we've gone from a boss who can do no right into the exact opposite. Roy was never afforded that luxury before a ball was even kicked.

Roy Hodgson spent £4million on an experienced left-back and everybody howled with anger, threw stones and tantrums and called Roy a brainless idiot, as poor as the signing turned out I'd liked to have seen the reaction to Roy Hodgson spending £20million on an unproven kid that we DONT NEED. Imagine if Roy Hodgson had sanctioned a £35million deal for Andy Carroll to replace Fernando Torres (that one would've melted the internet). Imagine if Roy Hodgson had taken Fernando Torres off with 15 minutes to go at Old Trafford in the FA Cup (would've been painted as the sole and only reason we lost). Imagine if Roy Hodgson had presided over a goalless 180 minutes with SC Braga which sealed our elimination. Imagine if Roy Hodgson used Glen Johnson at left-back for the second half of the season. Also, Hodgson was kicked for using Raul on the right, yet Kenny was let off for the same thing. Imagine if Hodgson was in charge for the early games with Carroll where we did nothing but hoof it long. Imagine if Hodgson spent £20million on a kid we dont need and then set about pursuing a Championship Scottish midfielder for four times his true value that we also don't need. Imagine if Hodgson's number one winger target was an overpriced average Stuart Downing, but yet Ashley Young go to United without even showing an interest. Imagine if Roy Hodgson had stated that "your birthright doesnt get you a game here" (quote from Dalglish) to then in June state your targets have to have a British passport and you will pay quadruple the odds regardless of value or ability. Imagine if Kenny Dalglish had come out with innocuous comments about Pacheco, I dont think he'd have got the "f**k off football terrorist" remarks Roy got on F365 for the same thing.

Obviously results speak for themselves. Kenny recorded top four form with Glen at LB and Raul on the right, and that's what matters, Roy nearly got us relegated. Roy did a lot of things wrong (oddly his 25 points from 20 games would've seen us finish with 47, the same as his West Brom side finished with and only one point above Fulham last year). The football under Roy was turgid and under Kenny it's much better. People will say "yeah but Kenny won games doing that!" yes you're right, I dont disagree and fair play to him but on a general note, making a general point having a fanbase which refuses to question a manager due to what he did 20 years ago is a dangerous game, just as dangerous as not trusting your manager at all. Kenny Dalglish may turn out to be yesterday's man chasing the early 80s dream, I hope not, but it's possible. But it's still interesting to see how the fans react differently dependant on reputation. At this rate I'm beginning to think Kenny wouldve even been praised for spending £5million on Christian Poulsen. Yes, yes you heard me.
Martin (YNWA)
 


http://www.football365.com/mailbox/story/0,17033,8744_6990293,00.html

Ignore the name above the manager's door and he has a point, or rather several.  I know some people think it's wrong to question the manager or make observations  about players, but surely the questioning and observations are driven by a desire for the club to be the very best it can and therefore as the motivation is a positive one, the points being made should be seen it that light.

I'm still not sure that the money spent on one Andy Carroll was the best use of £35M but am dying to see how he will fit into the team, how it influences the style of play and if it will prove to ultimately be the most successful way of playing.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Juan

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 2366
    • View Profile
Re: An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2011, 05:59:37 PM »
I read this earlier on football365 and wasnt sure what to make of it. On reading it again I find it hard to agree with much. The author is trying to differentiate between the support and blind faith Kenny has received compared to the lack of shown to Roy. I think the article is rendered pointless when the author admits that Kenny managed to get results whereas Roy didnt. Nothing else really matters. The author seems quick to question Kennys managerial success because of when it was achieved yet doesnt mention that Roy has never had that success whether it be 1979 or 2010.

To say that the fans would have lauded Poulsen if he was a Kenny signing is again rubbish. The fact of the matter is Kenny probably would never have bought up a washed up 30 year old and paid 4 or 5 million for him at that. Kennys seems to be getting questioned for decisions he had nothing to do with and for signings he probably would have never made. Hypothetically if Kenny did sign Poulsen and the fans were to back the signing it wouldnt be because Kennys endeared himself to the fans, it would be because Kenny knows his football, has always stayed in touch with football and has the proven track record of buying quality players in the past.

Although there was a swell of support for Kenny to get the job last summer there were plenty of Liverpool fans who had their doubts and many aired those doubts. I signed a petition to have Kenny re-instated, I thought the petition would rack up thousands of signatures but in the end it managed hundreds. So although Kenny is viewed as a legend most fans dont support his management with blind faith, they support his management of the team as a result of what hes achieved to date.

Offline the dude abides

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 8113
  • that rug really tied the room together
    • View Profile
Re: An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2011, 06:14:47 PM »
very good article.

indeed I think the author has been reading a section within my end of season report.

possibly there has been a watergate style break-in at the dude's ranch.

fergie has built successful teams everywhere he has been.....with or without money. Kenny has not.

Let's wait and see how it works out for kenny.  Many can take resources and turn a team into a top 4 outfit.....not very many can compete year in, year out, for the title (ala fergie).
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Juan

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 2366
    • View Profile
Re: An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 06:22:09 PM »
As for the players Kennys signed, well so far Suarez and Carroll havent proven to be all that bad. As a normal transfer 35 million for Andy carroll probably seems about 15 million too much. Collectively swapping Suarez and Carroll in exhange for Fernando Torres now feels as if we were the club doing the robbing. Its a no brainer and pretty good business to date.

15 - 20 million for Henderson again seems excessive but had United snared both he and Phil Jones the author above would probably be disputing our ability to compete with United for the top upcoming English talent. 

Kenny has a transfer strategy, more British players, more youth, players who have proved up to the rigours of the Premier League. Now and then like the addition of Suarez we will probably see some top foreign talent also. Roy had his chance and fluffed it, Kennys grasped his chance with both hands. To suggest that fans will support Kenny whatever he does is in my opinion is an unfair judgment on our fans. Kenny will always be a legend but if he proves not to be the man to take this club forward fans wont let sentiment get in the way of whats best for the club.

Offline Kopite999

  • Established
  • ****
  • Posts: 788
    • View Profile
Re: An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 06:35:42 PM »
Hard to take that website seriously. Normally stories are on there to get reactions.

Until i've got a good reason to doubt Kenny and you could also say the owners, then whats the point in saying 'what if....?'

Henderson was rubbish for the under 21's the other night but until i see him have a good number of games under his belt at Anfield, i'll reserve judgement

Offline Juan

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 2366
    • View Profile
Re: An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2011, 06:45:54 PM »
Dude by the sounds of it you have your doubts about Kennys ability to take us to the top.

Does what you have seen since January not fill you with a huge amount of encouragement? Have Kennys press conferences not been a breath of fresh air?

Just like people say Kenny gets blind support for who he is I also feel that he doesnt get the same recognition from certain quarters for who he is. Had Mourihno or Ferguson come in and done what Kenny has done since January both would probably be kighted or reknighted in Fergies case. People always have an excuse to find fault with our own.

Dude instead of encouragement for Kenny I almost suspect that your waiting or expecting him to fail even though he can have given you little or no ammunition since the day hes  been back. I understand cautious optimism and i wont be making any title challenging predictions for next year but I would like to see more credit given to Kenny for what hes done this year and for what hes done in his previous roles as manager.

Offline Kopite999

  • Established
  • ****
  • Posts: 788
    • View Profile
Re: An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2011, 07:32:55 PM »
Good point on the knighthhod Juan. Not only should he be recognised for his services for sport, he should also be recognised for everything he did for the families of the 96 after Hillsborough. Great great man.

Offline the dude abides

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 8113
  • that rug really tied the room together
    • View Profile
Re: An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2011, 08:28:49 PM »
Dude by the sounds of it you have your doubts about Kennys ability to take us to the top.

Does what you have seen since January not fill you with a huge amount of encouragement? Have Kennys press conferences not been a breath of fresh air?

Just like people say Kenny gets blind support for who he is I also feel that he doesnt get the same recognition from certain quarters for who he is. Had Mourihno or Ferguson come in and done what Kenny has done since January both would probably be kighted or reknighted in Fergies case. People always have an excuse to find fault with our own.

Dude instead of encouragement for Kenny I almost suspect that your waiting or expecting him to fail even though he can have given you little or no ammunition since the day hes  been back. I understand cautious optimism and i wont be making any title challenging predictions for next year but I would like to see more credit given to Kenny for what hes done this year and for what hes done in his previous roles as manager.

on the contrary Juan, I want Kenny to succeed.....just in the same way I wanted managers who I had grave doubts about (like Souness and Hodgson) to be successful.

but despite my ambition and hopes, I always like to keep it real.  You say why doesn't kenny get the same recognition as mourinhio or fergie.  Well Kenny has not won anything of note in some 25 years.

those who offer blind worship to anything, without ever questioning, should only be found in church pews.

kenny did a remarkable job this season.  He turned a bad season around.

but will he be able to take us to the top again - who knows.

apart from Arsene Wenger, way back in the 90s for a few years, no other manager has been able to compete with Fergie on a regular basis.

why will Kenny be different.  It is not disloyal to question one's self, and try to make oneself better - heck, what do the hero-worshippers imagine the Liverpool Boot-room was all about? 

Do they imagine Bill Shankly, Joe Fagan, Ronnie Moran and Bob Paisley, sat around all day packing each other on the back?

Come on, let's aim for the title - but like Liverpool of old, let's keep it real. 

Let's go back to modesty, humility, intelligence and hard work.....and no individual comes above the team.



In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Kopite999

  • Established
  • ****
  • Posts: 788
    • View Profile
Re: An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2011, 08:42:39 PM »


but despite my ambition and hopes, I always like to keep it real.  You say why doesn't kenny get the same recognition as mourinhio or fergie.  Well Kenny has not won anything of note in some 25 years.




So winning the league Premier League title with Blackburn doesnt count?

The world can be a depressing enough place without reading some of your comments.

Cheer up a bit. Focus on a few positives rather than negatives. We're hopefully about to see a new prosperous era for the club.  Look forward not back

Offline the dude abides

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 8113
  • that rug really tied the room together
    • View Profile
Re: An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2011, 11:02:48 PM »

So winning the league Premier League title with Blackburn doesnt count?

apologies, meant to type 15, not 25.

The world can be a depressing enough place without reading some of your comments.

Cheer up a bit. Focus on a few positives rather than negatives. We're hopefully about to see a new prosperous era for the club.  Look forward not back

p.iss off and hero-worship something else, or go worship in your local fundamentalist congregation....perhaps you can find some abortion clinic to focus your venom on.

leave the forum debate, to people who can actually THINK.

you are literally unable to discuss issues - like Gerrard's latest arrogant outburst. 

go off and find a church to worship in.....forums, and other vehicles, where people exchange ideas and opinions, are obviously not your thing.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Kopite999

  • Established
  • ****
  • Posts: 788
    • View Profile
An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2011, 11:32:20 PM »
apologies, meant to type 15, not 25.

p.iss off and hero-worship something else, or go worship in your local fundamentalist congregation....perhaps you can find some abortion clinic to focus your venom on.

leave the forum debate, to people who can actually THINK.

you are literally unable to discuss issues - like Gerrard's latest arrogant outburst. 

go off and find a church to worship in.....forums, and other vehicles, where people exchange ideas and opinions, are obviously not your thing.

I'll leave forum debates for you,  and you leave going to games to me

Offline the dude abides

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 8113
  • that rug really tied the room together
    • View Profile
Re: An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2011, 11:59:00 PM »
I'll leave forum debates for you,  and you leave going to games to me

good, because rational discussion of issues is obviously well beyond you.



In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2011, 12:55:03 PM »
I read this earlier on football365 and wasnt sure what to make of it. On reading it again I find it hard to agree with much. The author is trying to differentiate between the support and blind faith Kenny has received compared to the lack of shown to Roy. I think the article is rendered pointless when the author admits that Kenny managed to get results whereas Roy didnt. Nothing else really matters. The author seems quick to question Kennys managerial success because of when it was achieved yet doesnt mention that Roy has never had that success whether it be 1979 or 2010.

To say that the fans would have lauded Poulsen if he was a Kenny signing is again rubbish. The fact of the matter is Kenny probably would never have bought up a washed up 30 year old and paid 4 or 5 million for him at that. Kennys seems to be getting questioned for decisions he had nothing to do with and for signings he probably would have never made. Hypothetically if Kenny did sign Poulsen and the fans were to back the signing it wouldnt be because Kennys endeared himself to the fans, it would be because Kenny knows his football, has always stayed in touch with football and has the proven track record of buying quality players in the past.

Although there was a swell of support for Kenny to get the job last summer there were plenty of Liverpool fans who had their doubts and many aired those doubts. I signed a petition to have Kenny re-instated, I thought the petition would rack up thousands of signatures but in the end it managed hundreds. So although Kenny is viewed as a legend most fans dont support his management with blind faith, they support his management of the team as a result of what hes achieved to date.

The fundamental points he was making were sound but then he's undermined his argument in places by taking things to extremes or trying to play Devil's advocate on the wrong subjects or being perverse for the sake of it.
Some things are obvious. Hodgson's overall record was poor, but individual games occasionally showed promise or heralded a good result. Dalglish's record is the opposite. Overall, a massive improvement was made, but interspersed with disappointing individual results.

Juan, it's a great point you make about Carroll. The author has only looked at the two individual fees, whereas by looking at the two combined, it makes better reading and sense from a footballing perspective.

It depends on the way one looks at things. Go on the overall picture and things can look different to if you disect each individual transfer.

The point he makes about the UEFA Cup run is interesting. Remove the names of the managers and look at the run, our results and performances under manager B, didn't alter much from manager A. That can't really be disputed. The Braga games under manager B was equally as turgid and disappointing as some of the earlier games under manager A.

I think the difference in the way some of us view things is that whilst we appreciate the good we'll also see the bad or questionable. Pointing them out or holding a different opinion is not a bad thing.
Afterall, they are only opinions and in the wider picture are meaningless. The only opinions that matter are those of the people at the club that can actually put their opinions in practice.

We all come at different things from different angles, that's what makes us what we are, individuals.

No opinion is right or more valid just because we agree or wrong or less valid because we don't agree.

What I always enjoy on this forum is to read differing opinions and then use that to re-examine my own thoughts and see if they give me something I didn't have before or thought of before and to see if my opinion changes as a result. Sometimes it's enlightening, other times, it's reinforcing.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Juan

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 2366
    • View Profile
Re: An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2011, 03:46:14 PM »
The fundamental points he was making were sound but then he's undermined his argument in places by taking things to extremes or trying to play Devil's advocate on the wrong subjects or being perverse for the sake of it.
Some things are obvious. Hodgson's overall record was poor, but individual games occasionally showed promise or heralded a good result. Dalglish's record is the opposite. Overall, a massive improvement was made, but interspersed with disappointing individual results.

Juan, it's a great point you make about Carroll. The author has only looked at the two individual fees, whereas by looking at the two combined, it makes better reading and sense from a footballing perspective.

It depends on the way one looks at things. Go on the overall picture and things can look different to if you disect each individual transfer.

The point he makes about the UEFA Cup run is interesting. Remove the names of the managers and look at the run, our results and performances under manager B, didn't alter much from manager A. That can't really be disputed. The Braga games under manager B was equally as turgid and disappointing as some of the earlier games under manager A.

I think the difference in the way some of us view things is that whilst we appreciate the good we'll also see the bad or questionable. Pointing them out or holding a different opinion is not a bad thing.
Afterall, they are only opinions and in the wider picture are meaningless. The only opinions that matter are those of the people at the club that can actually put their opinions in practice.

We all come at different things from different angles, that's what makes us what we are, individuals.

No opinion is right or more valid just because we agree or wrong or less valid because we don't agree.

What I always enjoy on this forum is to read differing opinions and then use that to re-examine my own thoughts and see if they give me something I didn't have before or thought of before and to see if my opinion changes as a result. Sometimes it's enlightening, other times, it's reinforcing.

Very much agreed Tes. Football would be very boring if we all agreed and if we all came to the same conclusions. I respect other peoples opinions whether I believe they are justified or not and more often than not its when two people disagree when a forum like this comes to life.

Regarding the Braga games I take your point. However where I think Kenny and Roy differed was, Roys team may have drawn a european game gone out three days later and put in another poor performance in the league. Kennys on the other hand rarely had two poor games in a row. There was always a marked improvement. Also one of the huge differences for me was performance. The team rarely performed for Roy. Aside from the West Ham game at home there were very few performances under Roy that showed progress or gave an indication that Roy knew the style of football he wanted to play. Kenny on the other hand almost instantaniously had the team attempting to play a pass and move style of game.

I think the author of the piece may have been a bit naive in thinking that most fans wanted Kenny Dalglish back in charge just becuase he was Kenny Dalglish. I wanted Kenny back because I genuinely felt he had something major to offer. So far he hasnt disappointed but next season will be the true test of what Kennys all about. 

Offline Juan

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 2366
    • View Profile
Re: An interesting article about Dalglish
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2011, 04:19:07 PM »
on the contrary Juan, I want Kenny to succeed.....just in the same way I wanted managers who I had grave doubts about (like Souness and Hodgson) to be successful.

but despite my ambition and hopes, I always like to keep it real.  You say why doesn't kenny get the same recognition as mourinhio or fergie.  Well Kenny has not won anything of note in some 25 years.

those who offer blind worship to anything, without ever questioning, should only be found in church pews.

kenny did a remarkable job this season.  He turned a bad season around.

but will he be able to take us to the top again - who knows.

apart from Arsene Wenger, way back in the 90s for a few years, no other manager has been able to compete with Fergie on a regular basis.

why will Kenny be different.  It is not disloyal to question one's self, and try to make oneself better - heck, what do the hero-worshippers imagine the Liverpool Boot-room was all about? 

Do they imagine Bill Shankly, Joe Fagan, Ronnie Moran and Bob Paisley, sat around all day packing each other on the back?

Come on, let's aim for the title - but like Liverpool of old, let's keep it real. 

Let's go back to modesty, humility, intelligence and hard work.....and no individual comes above the team.

Dude I get where your coming from and the fact that Kenny hasnt won anything in 15 or 20 more years. But the difference for me is that Kenny hasnt won anything in all that time becuase he hasnt been involved in the management side of the game. Its not like hes spent the last 15 years going from club to club winning nothing. So I'm still very hopeful that the talent he portrayed as a manager during his first spell with the club hasnt been lost and so far that seems to be the case.

And I agree that who knows whether Kenny will be able to replicate the sort of form the team has shown since january when it comes to the course of a full season. However what he has done to date since his return and with the new owners on board I just feel a huge sense of optimism. I know you generally dont let yourself get carried away and when it comes to supporting Liverpool thats probably the best way to be but on this occassion I just feel you seem to have a glass half empty mindset at a time when the positives far outweigh the negatives at the club.

I would never blindly follow Kenny and your right to question decisions you dont feel are in the best interests of the club but personally I believe the future is bright under Kennys guidance. As for humility, honesty, hard work and everything associated with the great Liverpool teams of the past I think Kenny has shown all of those qualities in abundance since his return and from a media perspective its great to see we have a manager that cant be bullied by what Ferguson has to say. Theres no doubt Kenny will give the title a shot this year but he wont be shouting it from the rooftops and if we were to get back into the Champions League places everybody associated with the club would probably see that as a big step in the right direction.