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Author Topic: Season 2011 - 2012  (Read 259565 times)

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2011, 08:51:18 PM »
agreed with dude that maxi needs a run out...even as a sub...otherwise he'll be wanting to nip off in the transfer window...looks like aquilani is off for 2 quid or so...i concur with tes over the bad bizness there as we should hold out for a kings ransom and yet we're likely to get a pauper's shilling...

yes, i also agree with Tes.  We are making some very bad moves financially in the market.  Why do we pay over the odds for lads who are injured - aquilini and carroll.  Madness.

yes, Maxi needs to be getting games.  He is up there with the best in our team, in my book, re technical ability.
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Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2011, 08:58:12 PM »
Whenever we have the more 'technical' players on the pitch, the decision to sign Carroll (or anyone of his ilk) seems increasingly baffling.
The alleged £40M + Sturridge deal would have been the better option to take, imho. Then again, I've hated the target man setup since the beginning of the eighties. Like hipster flairs, it should have remained in the 70s. We have Don Howe to thank for that, which makes the Arsenal fans 'hoofball' chant all the more ironic (or make an equally apt word from 'more ironic') .

yes, sturridge sounds like a better deal.

personally, i would have kept the Chelsea money (for torres) and waited til the summer.  Was the money burning a hole in our pocket.  Did we have to bring in another striker immediately, purely for political reasons (to keep the fans at bay (after losing Torres).

like you Tes, I agree that the days of hoofing it up to a big centre forward are long gone.  They went out with Toshack and Keegan.  But I suspect that is what Kenny is trying to build...a modern Toshack/Keegan thing - with Carroll and Suarez. 

Sure, the likes of a Carroll (or previously a Crouch) always offers an alternative option in a team.  But this style of play should never be or bread and butter.

My fear is that Kenny will keep playing Carroll mainly because of his price tag.  Instead, the big lad needs to be an option, that often starts on the bench.
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Offline Gurdeep

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2011, 10:25:02 PM »
My fear is that Kenny will keep playing Carroll mainly because of his price tag.  Instead, the big lad needs to be an option, that often starts on the bench.

Valid point.  I still shake my head in utter disbelief that we paid £35M for Carroll.  Even more so now with Citeh having bought Aguero for only a few million more.  I hope he comes good but I just don't see him being a prolific goal scorer.  He has ariel ability and presence up front no doubt, but his speed is not existant imho.  I just cringe whenever I see him try to sprint......

As for the game against Arsenal, I think we looked much more fluid when Kenny brought on Suarez and Meireless.  The passing was quicker, sharper and we seemed to cause more problems to Arsenals defence with our movement. 

Henderson!  Early days of course but watched him in both games and I can't see what the fuss was about.  £20M.....Nah I don't think so, more like a £8M player.  Again, time will tell if he steps up his game.   
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Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2011, 12:52:26 AM »
Valid point.  I still shake my head in utter disbelief that we paid £35M for Carroll.  Even more so now with Citeh having bought Aguero for only a few million more.  I hope he comes good but I just don't see him being a prolific goal scorer.  He has ariel ability and presence up front no doubt, but his speed is not existant imho.  I just cringe whenever I see him try to sprint......

As for the game against Arsenal, I think we looked much more fluid when Kenny brought on Suarez and Meireless.  The passing was quicker, sharper and we seemed to cause more problems to Arsenals defence with our movement. 

Henderson!  Early days of course but watched him in both games and I can't see what the fuss was about.  £20M.....Nah I don't think so, more like a £8M player.  Again, time will tell if he steps up his game.   

Hmmm....Haven't viewed the Arsenal game yet.....

Anyway some topical points up for discussion!

First, I think the price we paid for Carroll is not a factor, 'cos essentially we got Suarez & Carroll for
the price of Torres and if we paid 49 million for Suarez & 1 for Carroll, I don't see wht difference it makes as
 together they represent that windows dealings and who knows how things work out short and long term.

Tbh, I've yet to reach an opinion on Carroll and feel, particularly because of the injury, that it's too early to properly assess how he's likely to progress given his relative youth. My hope is that when he finds his rhythm, he'll make a sizable contribution to our goal scoring be it off the ball (occupying two defenders), flick-ons, hold ups and plain old goals. There was a definite reason he was brought into the side so I'm happy to wait and see how he settles in

Tes mentioned a few posts back somewhere that Henderson may be a Lucas type in the sense that he'll
need a few seasons to establish a role and identity at a big club?

As long as the lads have the right attitude at the moment I'm not too bothered.....

Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2011, 04:57:57 PM »
Agreed on Carroll Ed.

In reality it wasnt us who overpaid for Carroll it was Chelsea. We sold Torres to Chelsea on the condition that we would have 15 million left over from the sale of Torres and purchase of Carroll. So the more Carroll was costing us the more Torres was costing Chelsea. Thats the only reason I think we were willing to pay Carrolls inflated value and really it was a clever move by Liverpool. As we also said before the combination of getting Carroll and Suarez in return for Torres is a masterstroke on our part. We by far got the better deal so I think its wrong to question the Carroll deal as a single 35 million transaction.

As for the player himself I had my doubts early on in his Liverpool career, late last season. The performance against Man City eased those doubts but since then I havent seen enough quality from him yet. That said I still think he can be top drawer. Sometimes its horses for courses and the PL is definitely the league Carroll was born to play in. If he can ignite his Liverpool career we could be looking at a regular Liverpool and England striker of the next decade. When the Agueros and Tevez's are complaining about the cold Manchester winters at least we know Andy will be happy as a pig in muck. And having that settled happy team could be the key with trying to compete with Manchester and Chelseas billions. I say give the lad the season and judge him then.

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2011, 05:50:47 PM »
I still shake my head in utter disbelief that we paid £35M for Carroll.  Even more so now with Citeh having bought Aguero for only a few million more.  I hope he comes good but I just don't see him being a prolific goal scorer.  He has ariel ability and presence up front no doubt, but his speed is not existant imho.  I just cringe whenever I see him try to sprint......

It was deemed by KK and Damian that we needed a replacement striker after Torres left. It was Chelsea's money. I don't think we would have paid that at any other time.

Speed isn't everything. If it was then why isn't Torres banging them in? You need a style of playing that suits the players. I'm sure that Carroll's 'weaknesses' can be improved to make him a more effective player. It's certainly not money wasted.

If everyone had known Aguero would be such an instant hit then more clubs would have gone for him. Same with Suarez and Hernandes. Sometimes players just click and no-one could see it happening so well.

Would anyone here have expected Enrique to get MoTM in his second game? Not me!
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Gurdeep

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2011, 10:12:12 PM »
I guess time will tell what kind of player Carroll will end up as.  For me right now, not a £35M player.  But hope I'm proved wrong.
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2011, 12:28:52 AM »
Although Carroll's and Aguero's fees are similar, their wages are vastly different, so I doubt we could have ever considered Aguero as a serious option.
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Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2011, 01:02:21 PM »
Finally checked out the Arsenal game! (was moving house  :))

Must admit, I was very happy with that....3 points and a clean sheet, Nice!

Granted, Gunners having some issues at the moment, but that's their problem
and if Wenger provides a bit of Leadership and doesn't crack under the pressure,
they'll be there and there abouts at the end of the season....

Wasn't at all happy with that young Frimpong's tackle, potential leg breaker,
shows the character of Lucas that he didn't shirk the challenge.....Whinger is
completely full of shed dismissing it as the enthusiasm of youth, it was completely
reckless and given what's happened to some of his players in the past, he shouldn't
be condoning it, imo.

I think there has already been a big improvement from Sunderland and hope that
we keep up that over the next couple of games 'til the rhythm is there across the
team.

It's amazing that both Kelly & Enrique can Block Crosses!!!!! One of the things that has
been bugging me for years and why I find it difficult to accept Glen Johnson as a defender
(though I appreciate his dynamism going forward!). At Liverpool, We Block Crosses!

I'd also argue that Stevie G could be the solution to the Carroll, Henderson debate that
Gurdeep & Dude mentioned a few posts back.

1.) He could potentially link up very well with Carroll as a supplier, but also feeding off knock-ons
and capitalising on any defensive mayhem.

2.) In order for him to do a whole season this year, I think a good 60 minutes is the best we can hope for
with Stevie and if he makes way for Henderson from the bench, then I think we get the best of both worlds
as the young lad settles in.

To be fair to Henderson, he Deserves time to settle in, but there are definitely encouraging
signs there, I thought he was on the ball more in the Arsenal game. My opinion is that he
gives us a lot of Energy in a vital area of the pitch, can cover the ground rapidly and lead break-outs with
Lucas covering? He needs to get his Tackling right though and Constantly Pressure and Harry the opposition
when they have the ball in their half. That's the priority for him now, imo.

Anyway, positive signs, but I'm not forgetting about a commanding Centre Back (How difficult can it be,
look at Vermaelen!) and a back-up Striker.......

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2011, 04:01:28 PM »
not often we disagree.  But I have to disagree with a couple of you re Carroll.
 
Just because Chelsea gave us 50 million for Torres, doesn't mean that it was Chelsea's 35 (some say 36) million that bought Carroll.  It was then OUR money, to do with as we wanted.  The money didn't need to be spent in January.  We could have waited.  And we could have got a helluva lot more value for our money.  imho
 
If you buy a lad who is not technically good enough on the ground, then even he only cost one pound, it is a pound wasted.  I hope my opinions change.  But from what I have seen to date of the big lad on the ground, I have to say, WTF.
 
What concerns me is top (make that world class) technical players being kept on the bench (Moreless and Maxi). And what concerns me even more, were the persistent rumours during the summer that Liverpool were trying to offload both lads.  Crazy.  Absolutely crazy.
 
And Henderson may come good.  I have seen enough to be encouraged.  But he should be on the bench, and slowly being adopted into the team. 
 
If we had started with more senior players in that first game, we would be sitting on top of the league today....with a healthy goal difference.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 04:02:42 PM by the dude abides »
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Gurdeep

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2011, 05:02:13 PM »
Just because Chelsea gave us 50 million for Torres, doesn't mean that it was Chelsea's 35 (some say 36) million that bought Carroll.  It was then OUR money, to do with as we wanted.  The money didn't need to be spent in January.  We could have waited.  And we could have got a helluva lot more value for our money.  imho

Precisely  :D
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Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2011, 06:56:25 PM »
not often we disagree.  But I have to disagree with a couple of you re Carroll.

If by disagree you mean you don't think we should have bought him then consider this. We had 2 years of the owners taking the money from player sales and giving little or none back to Rafa. Imagine if the new owners in their first transfer window had sanctioned the sale of Torres but had not made money available for a replacement. There would have been all sort of accusations that they were no different to H&G. If Kenny had come out and said there was no value in the market would we really have believed him?

So they decided that as a statement of intent they would make some of that fee available for a replacement. It doesn't really matter whether we thought a replacement was required or not. Kenny did and that's what mattered.

So looking at the available players with only a MATTER OF HOURS before the window closed a silly amount of money had to be paid to Newcastle for Carroll. Yes, clearly he's not worth £35M but that's not his fault. We had to pay that amount in order to compensate Newcastle.

I have no doubt he will improve with time. Gerrard may provide that missing link. Have he and Carroll featured in any game? I don't think they have. Kenny has acknowledged Carroll has not hit the level expected and I'm sure they will be doing all they can to address that in the weeks ahead.
Cheers,
Ray



Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2011, 07:13:50 PM »
So looking at the available players with only a MATTER OF HOURS before the window closed a silly amount of money had to be paid to Newcastle for Carroll.

why?


Yes, clearly he's not worth £35M but that's not his fault. We had to pay that amount in order to compensate Newcastle.

 ???

run that past me again.

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2011, 07:22:59 PM »
Dude,

Why? Because we wouldn't have got him for less. IIRC £25M or thereabouts was offered but it was rejected. Hence why it ended up at £35M.

If Newcastle were going to lose him then we were always going to have to pay way over the odds and if you look at it from Newcastle's point they could argue that if they were relegated that money would compensate them for the loss of income. That's my take on it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

Chelsea did the same for Torres. We paid £23M for a 24 year-old; they paid £50M for a 27 year-old. Was he worth it? Obviously not but they wanted him just as we wanted Carroll.
Cheers,
Ray



Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2011, 07:29:30 PM »
ASI, 35/36 million pounds is a LOT of money.  We were not obligated to spend the money immediately.

And especially not on a lad who was injured.

Was the money burning a hole in our pocket.  It sure looks like it. 

We bought in haste, we can now repent at leisure.

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.