Season 2011 - 2012

[Martinmarx]

Is it your belief that the fact KDs spent 112 million means we should be in the top 4 now?

Yes.

[Tes]

Ray dont let the negativity drive you away from the forum. There are plenty of optimists on here recognise that Liverpool are in the process of building for the furure again. Its going to be a slow process and mistakes will be made along the way. As well as that we will be competing against 5 other very good teams so 4th is never going to be guaranteed. Look at Man City. They have spent hundreds of millions for the last number of years but this is only their first year in the Premier League. There are plenty of fans out there who will give Kenny and players time. When Henrys plan finally bears some success at least you know you wont be just jumping on the bandwagon. So stick around and keep the posts coming!

To expand on Juan's point about City - when you look at the first set of players they brought in they were about the same level as what we've brought in, however, that was always going to be the first of many stages and they have had / have the money to pay way over the odds in both transfer fees and wages on a consistant basis in order to attract players they otherwise would have no chance of attracting.
Will we have the funds to the same? I doubt any of us really believe we will. So we can't pay £20M+ in one window then repeat that on a direct replacement in the next window.
In other words, everything we do we have to get right, first time every time, otherwise the money going to replace the mistake that hasn't taken us forward, can't be used to take us even further forward. City's owners have the money to keeping buying whilst learning, ours probably don't.
Therefore mistakes have a greater effect and become more costly and noticeable as they can't be rectified as easily or as quickly.

[Martinmarx]

To expand on Juan's point about City - when you look at the first set of players they brought in they were about the same level as what we've brought in, however, that was always going to be the first of many stages and they have had / have the money to pay way over the odds in both transfer fees and wages on a consistant basis in order to attract players they otherwise would have no chance of attracting.
Will we have the funds to the same? I doubt any of us really believe we will. So we can't pay £20M+ in one window then repeat that on a direct replacement in the next window.
In other words, everything we do we have to get right, first time every time, otherwise the money going to replace the mistake that hasn't taken us forward, can't be used to take us even further forward. City's owners have the money to keeping buying whilst learning, ours probably don't.
Therefore mistakes have a greater effect and become more costly and noticeable as they can't be rectified as easily or as quickly.

But tes, isn't that really just another way of hiding away from the fact we spent a shocking amount of money on not nearly good enough players? Seriously, what exactly justifies the money we spent on Hendeson, Downing and Carrol? I don't think you could find any objective observer who'd say that was money well spent.

[Martinmarx]

Also, you also seem to forget that City started off as a mid-table club meaning not only did they have to build a team, they also needed to form an identity as something different to what they used to be. We, on the other hand, already had that in place. We're supposed to be a top team. But there never were a team and there will never be a team able to reach 4th with a manager unable to make at least decent signings, pick a suitable formation and play his best team. As I said above, Kenny fails in all departments and come the summer all of Kuijt, Bellars and Maxi will be long gone which means we need to add further players which means we will need another season to build etc., etc., etc., etc.

Kenny just doesn't have what it takes on this level. It was good to let him come in after Roy but a total and utter disaster to give him the helm permanently.

[Juan]

I agree with you on that Maxi issue/contradictory quotes, Juan.

But let me make a wider point.

The people who are lost and dazzled in the glare of Kenny, the legend, will have to at some point set down the communion wine and realise that they are worshipping a false God.

The hypocrisy is astounding, in their ill-advised worship.

Rafa took us to two CL finals and we pretty much played in the CL every year.   He falls short once, and you all want him sacked.

And yet, the same benchmark does not apply to Kenny.....why?  He apparently needs more time (and lots more money). 

Rafa made the very best of the resources that he had to call upon.  The same cannot be said of Kenny.

Was there some form of ísm against Rafa?

Dude you completely misinterpret my loyalty for Kenny if you believe it to be nothing more than worship of an old club idol. I accept that there is definitely an element of that among our fanbase but I believe the majority of fans are behind him because they genuinely believe he can be a success. There may have been a touch of fairytale comeback when he first returned, old King Kenny back in the dugout but any romanticism was soon out the window and I base any of my opinions of Kenny on what Ive seen to date. I dont argue he hasnt made mistakes but Ive also highlighted here on too many occasions the amount of good I think he done for the club.

Rafa on the other hand you either loved him or hated him, there was very few fans split down the middle. I never remember a set of fans from any club being so at odds with one another over the manager of their team. And I hate to diappoint you Dude but I was one of those fans firmly in Benitezs corner. I never wanted him sacked and always said I'd love to see him given a chance at LFC with some cash. Unfortunately Hicks and Gillett managed to do something they couldnt do for a long time and get rid. If Rafa fought on until Henry and co arrived he would probably be still in the managers dugout now. Where we would be in the league it would be hard to say but undoubtedly the team would en route to becoming one of Rafas well oiled machines. That said you cant start comparing Rafas CL win to what Kennys achieved in one calender year because its been very different circumstances. With the other big teams out there in the league now finishing fourth is tougher than when Rafa first arrived. And Rafa inherited a team already in the CL. His first season he also finished 5th and only requalified because we had won it. Kenny took over last season with the team in 12th and we ended up finishing 6th. Its only Christmas and we're already 6th and 3 points off Chelsea in 4th. To me that constitutes progress whether it was Rafa, Kenny or the Dude himself in charge.

[Juan]

Yes.

Even though that its a nett spend of about 40 million?

[Tes]

But tes, isn't that really just another way of hiding away from the fact we spent a shocking amount of money on not nearly good enough players? Seriously, what exactly justifies the money we spent on Hendeson, Downing and Carrol? I don't think you could find any objective observer who'd say that was money well spent.

Firstly, since City starting buying players in the quality bracket we've bought in the prices have risen, partly in thanks to them. Downing cost Villa £12M at the time City started spending (overpriced then also IMHO). Now without doing very much to actually add value himself, his price tag has risen accordingly. As far as value goes, I've made my feelings clear enough so I'm very much out in the open on that one. 

[Martinmarx]

Even though that its a nett spend of about 40 million?

Yes, because you're not, or at least you shouldn't be, guided by what the actual net spend comes down to, but rather what quality the player bring in. If we'd spent 14 million on 3 players it would've been much easier to live with the fact they'r not good enough. You don' get it do you? The money will be gone and we ain't gonna get any new either from Henry nor from CL footy. You say build up is slow. It may be, but so is also decay.

[Martinmarx]

Firstly, since City starting buying players in the quality bracket we've bought in the prices have risen, partly in thanks to them. Downing cost Villa £12M at the time City started spending (overpriced then also IMHO). Now without doing very much to actually add value himself, his price tag has risen accordingly. As far as value goes, I've made my feelings clear enough so I'm very much out in the open on that one.

I don't care what he cost Villa. I could've told Kenny and Comolli before hand he isn't worth that sum, let alone another 8. The problem is our scouting system has to be, and have been for over a decade, among the worst in Europe. They decide to splash out 20 million on what? Statistics. Now that's the world gone crazy and as far away from the Liverpool way you could ever get.

[Juan]

But tes, isn't that really just another way of hiding away from the fact we spent a shocking amount of money on not nearly good enough players? Seriously, what exactly justifies the money we spent on Hendeson, Downing and Carrol? I don't think you could find any objective observer who'd say that was money well spent.

Henderson has been bought for the next 10 years so to judge him so harshly on his first 4 months at the club isnt giving the guy a fair chance.

Downing is a different case because he was bought to perform now. I agree that he looks out of his depth at the moment and doesnt seem to have any end product at all which is worrying. You have to hope that his form picks up , if it does we benefit from assists and goals but if it doesnt we sell him and replace him with someone else who we believe can do the job. Thats football not every player signing works out.

Carroll I accept was a rash buy that I cant see fitting into the style of football we are trying to play. He is probably Kennys biggest mistake to date and probably one he cant defend. So with the exception of Carroll I think its easy to ridicule Kenny over his signings now but most were probably less inclined to ridicule him when the deals were being put in place. The benefit of hindsight.

[Juan]

Also, you also seem to forget that City started off as a mid-table club meaning not only did they have to build a team, they also needed to form an identity as something different to what they used to be.

500 million in transfer funds and astronomical player salaries helps to speed up the whole team identity process.

[Ed]

Quite frankly I'm fed up with people rubbishing certain players and calling for the manager to be sacked. If this is meant to the the new Liverpool Way you can bloody well keep it!

ASI, don't take it all too seriously!

There are different viewpoints on here, but as the season progresses that's
part of the fun of the debate, imo. 

I stated back awhile, the views I have about Kenny, believing he can probably
get us 4th and maybe win a cup this season. If he doesn't, then at the end of
the season I think questions should be asked. From a personal viewpoint, I've
always idolised Dalglish and agree there are times on here when he has been
shown a lot of disrespect, more than, imo, falls under the umbrella of FAIR COMMENT.

Occasionally, I have a pop at Stevie G 'cos despite his fantastic abilities, there's
something that's bugged me about the captaincy not been passed on the way Sami
did and some other stuff.

Tbh though, this season, I've been quite mellow about standards because I accept that
it's a work in progress and Kenny's a good guy.

The point is, there's no point (like others on here tend to) judging and condemning the
current team using Old Liverpool standards, because the reality is we're nowhere near
that at the moment.

Our title is 4th this season (last time i looked we were 3 points off that) and ok we face a
bit of adversity, sfw, we battle on and stick together (& stand by our player
Luis Suarez, despite what the broad consensus of the London-based media is. YNWA).

I am confident that we have a great bunch of lads this this season, with a fair amount of quality
and potential. The season's only half-way through and I expect that the best is yet to come.
So, I support the players and the manager, simple as!

[Juan]

Firstly, since City starting buying players in the quality bracket we've bought in the prices have risen, partly in thanks to them. Downing cost Villa £12M at the time City started spending (overpriced then also IMHO). Now without doing very much to actually add value himself, his price tag has risen accordingly. As far as value goes, I've made my feelings clear enough so I'm very much out in the open on that one.

And lets not forget Young who had roughly the same goals and assists for Villa last year went for 16 million and he only had a year left on his contract. So we either paid the msrket value for Downing or walked away. As you say Tes its City and Chelsea have created this monster and unfortunately if we want to attempt to bring in half decent players we will pay over the odds.

[Tes]

500 million in transfer funds and astronomical player salaries helps to speed up the whole team identity process.

The fact that Chelsea were being called a big club after one title win (Blackburn Rovers didn't quite get the same accolade) and City are now being described in the same terms are testament to that. The media are guilty as charged for that. No balance or perspective. Just sensationalism and hype. All image, no substance.

[Tes]

I don't care what he cost Villa. I could've told Kenny and Comolli before hand he isn't worth that sum, let alone another 8. The problem is our scouting system has to be, and have been for over a decade, among the worst in Europe. They decide to splash out 20 million on what? Statistics. Now that's the world gone crazy and as far away from the Liverpool way you could ever get.

There's value, cost and then market value. The former, in football terms, bears no relevance to the latter two.

I don't think you'll find too many people saying that Downing for £20M was value for money. Stating it over and over won't change it.