Season 2011 - 2012

[Ageing Stick Insect]

This is part of a report from a Liverpool v Stoke game played on 20 Sept 2008...

The Reds played out a nil nil draw against a very negative Stoke City side and were left to reflect on a goal that should have been but wasn't in the second minute of the match. A Steven Gerrard free kick was fired in from the left side and avoided everyone to hit the back of the net but for a reason only known to the officials the goal was disallowed and we then had to endure one way traffic with little invention from the Reds.

It was one of them games which you get every season against a promoted side in particular where they turn up for a point or at worst damage limitation and say you beat us. The frustrating thing is that we still have no clue how to beat these types of team. We still lack that little invention, that ball they're not expecting or simply the idea of packing the box with any more of those defenders that otherwise have taken up residence on the deck chair they have at the back.

Sound familiar? Except then of course the manager was one Rafa Benitez who had been manager for over 4 years.

And here was the team that day...
Reina, Arbeloa Skrtel, Carragher, Dossena, Alonso, Gerrard, Kuyt, Riera (Babel ), Keane (Benayoun ), Torres

A lot more talent than that on the field yesterday yet LFC couldn't break them down. I imagine the cries for the sacking of Benitez as a foreigner who didn't understand the English game would have been considerable by some on these pages. Then again... 

Football isn't an exact science. That's what makes it fascinating but also makes it frustrating. I'm no happier than others here about yesterday's result but calls for the manager to resign / be sacked are premature.

If we make it through to the Carling Cup Final will anyone condemn the 2nd half tactics at the Etihad on Wednesday? I doubt it. The result is everything and sometimes the tactics aren't pretty. But the result is remembered long after the tactics are forgotten.

[Tes]

To change the manager mid-season, other than under last season's circumstances, tends to bring more instability and problems, than it solves.

For me, the time is at the end of the season. The decision can be made prior to the end of the season so that the new man can be sounded out and a replacement can be made as soon as the season finishes, giving the new man maximum time to make the decisions that need to be made and action them.

The simple question is: Who is available at the moment to take over?

Short term appointments don't work.

I imagine FSG will review things (and will be looking at things and making decisions on an ongoing basis) at the end of the season and some hard questions will be asked.

Ignoring all the individuals involved (as this tends to skew things), has the £100M+ that's been spent in the last 13 months been spent wisely, given us value for money and actually taken us forward in terms of results and style of play? An honest answer needs to be given (as I said ignoring the individuals involved).

Do we see the players purchased all coming good, given a season to bed in, or will it be more of the same next season? 

Good to see you back posting, Ray.

We all hold differing opinions on all aspects concerning our club. However, that's all they are, opinions, personal views. They count for nothing and are meaningless within the bigger picture.
And I don't think there's any doubting that all of us love the club and want to see us back at the top of pile and it's the strength of those emotions involved that show themselves in what we all post.

Let's all remember we're all part of the same family and we all want the same things. We're all red brothers and sisters so let's respect each other's opinions and the right to hold them (whatever they may be).

[the dude abides]

This is part of a report from a Liverpool v Stoke game played on 20 Sept 2008...

The Reds played out a nil nil draw against a very negative Stoke City side and were left to reflect on a goal that should have been but wasn't in the second minute of the match. A Steven Gerrard free kick was fired in from the left side and avoided everyone to hit the back of the net but for a reason only known to the officials the goal was disallowed and we then had to endure one way traffic with little invention from the Reds.

It was one of them games which you get every season against a promoted side in particular where they turn up for a point or at worst damage limitation and say you beat us. The frustrating thing is that we still have no clue how to beat these types of team. We still lack that little invention, that ball they're not expecting or simply the idea of packing the box with any more of those defenders that otherwise have taken up residence on the deck chair they have at the back.

Sound familiar? Except then of course the manager was one Rafa Benitez who had been manager for over 4 years.

And here was the team that day...
Reina, Arbeloa Skrtel, Carragher, Dossena, Alonso, Gerrard, Kuyt, Riera (Babel ), Keane (Benayoun ), Torres

A lot more talent than that on the field yesterday yet LFC couldn't break them down.

hang on a cotton-pickin second.

are you saying that the 112 million quid that Kenny has spent in the past year, has resulted in the club now having less talent on the pitch than Rafa had 3 and a half years ago?

That's a helluva an admission, Ray.

[Ageing Stick Insect]

Tes, good post and I pretty much agree with it all. Now is not the time to be issuing P45s. The owners stated 4th was the target but what we don't know is whether that was the minimum acceptable for Kenny to keep his job. We should know by the end of May.

I have no objections to people voicing their opinions. of course I don't. But what does become tiresome is the same line being rolled out time and time again. There's no need. We know how certain people feel about certain things.

Dude, 3-4 of those players have had less than one season but already you've condemned them as unfit. May I remind you that Alonso had one, possibly two seasons where he underperformed and that's why Rafa looked at Barry.

The £112M means nothing to me. It's not my money. And yes, my point was that even with more talented players Rafa still couldn't break Stoke down. Were you criticising him and his tactics then? I suspect you would blame the players but not the manager. But now, you blame everyone but especially Kenny. Weren't you one who often said you get nowhere by changing managers every 5 minutes? Personally my mind is neutral on him because I saw us play some wonderful football last season and this. Sometimes he gets tactics wrong (like yesterday) but doesn't seem to get plaudits when he gets them right.

The market place is a real lottery. Who else considered Ba when Newcastle were looking at him? All those managers missed a trick. Or did they? Maybe he looks good because he fits into Newcastle's style of play. Take him elsewhere and he may become very ordinary. That's the risk you take.

All is not lost yet and I will always keep a positive attitude towards my club whether it's realistic or not. Form and confidence are fickle creatures and can change just like that.

[Martinmarx]

To change the manager mid-season, other than under last season's circumstances, tends to bring more instability and problems, than it solves.

For me, the time is at the end of the season. The decision can be made prior to the end of the season so that the new man can be sounded out and a replacement can be made as soon as the season finishes, giving the new man maximum time to make the decisions that need to be made and action them.

The simple question is: Who is available at the moment to take over?

Short term appointments don't work.

Agreed changing things right now will probably not be for the best in the short or the long run. However, and as I've been saying on here a few times before, in about 6-7 weeks things will start to klick and we'll go on a helluva run during the spring. This always happen when we're out of the race for 4th or *cough* the title. The problem is that fans and the directors will base their decisions on that final quarter of the season, not the 3 quarters where we were shiite. That's why I think it is important to keep reminding people Kenny's been one of our finest servants but isn't up to it.

As to who should come in. As far back as the days of Houllier I've had this naive and romantic dream a fairly young (35-45 years) manager could come in with a vision about what way this club should go in the future. The one thing I don't want to see is a scientifically driven manager. It doesn't work. I want somebody in the Shankly or, dare I say, Fergie mould with an idea what it takes to be a Liverpool player, with an idea what's required to be a Liverpool player in terms of quality of crosses, passes, shots, movement etc. In short, a manager who thinks establishing a winning culture/atmosphere/environment is the most important thing of all. A manager with both heart and brain.

This in turn maks it important the directors of the club have at least some idea what they want this club to be.

In short my point is the job behind the curtains finding a new manager should begin now and Kenny should be released of his duties come May. I'm not sure of the extent the damages wasting 112 million has done in terms of ability to building a new side. I personally believe they're quite severe as we would struggle to recoup a third of that money. Also, missing out on the CL for a third year running means we'll have to rethink completely what kind of players we can attract and thus build a new side around.

I think it'll get worse before it gets better unfortunately and I think we'l spend most of the 2010's in the 5-8 bracket. It's the result of the mismanagement of this club for over a decade starting with GH. IMHO, the directors must now focus on forking out a strategy for the long term and appoint a manager in conjunction with that strategy. We've tried the quick fix solutions for over a decade and the only thing it did (apart from a fantastic night in Istanbul and dito afternoon in Cardiff), was to see us well and truly ferked off our perch.

All this in Swenglish.

[Ed]

Was watching the game yesterday and Stevie G
runs half the length of the pitch to stop a ball going
out of play...

Traps it beautifully, half a foot from the touchline with
a nice piece of technique!

Turns around, proceeds to look up and immediately attempt
to play the most impossible of the (who knows 10 or so)
options available to him, a hollywood pass to a (presumably short,
'cos Carroll wasn't on, as far as I remember) player up the
far end of the pitch who was being marshalled by 2 or 3
Stoke defenders.

Possession given straight back to Stoke! Duh!

It's so dumb, race half the length of the pitch to keep possession
and the ball in play only to give it straight back.

Ego triumphing over basic footballing logic, represents everything
that drives me nuts about Gerrard and is imo one of the reasons
why we get these stupid home draws. All fancy intricate play full
of oohs and ahs with no end product when all it takes is 1 well executed
corner to dispatch most of these teams!

[Tes]

The market place is a real lottery. Who else considered Ba when Newcastle were looking at him? All those managers missed a trick. Or did they? Maybe he looks good because he fits into Newcastle's style of play. Take him elsewhere and he may become very ordinary. That's the risk you take.

All is not lost yet and I will always keep a positive attitude towards my club whether it's realistic or not. Form and confidence are fickle creatures and can change just like that.

Ray, the problem with Ba is his knees. He's failed multiple medicals because of them and I've also read on more than one occasion that there are severe problems with clubs getting insurance on him because they are so potentially bad. West Ham took the chance on a loan move and the Barcodes on a free transfer.
He's pretty much scored wherever he's been, but I understand and agree with the example and point you were making .
We 'stole' Hyypia from Willem II when no one else was looking at him.

It's a great point about form and confidence, both so crucial, yet both so fragile.
I think this has to be looked at more when purchasing players, both their ability to bounce back from dips in either or both, but also it underlines a much bigger issue and is part of it and that is of the player's ability to cope mentally with playing at a club like ours, under both the weight of hope and expectation and also the amount of media focus on the club. And therefore their ability to maintain form and confidence under those conditions.

I think the above can be levelled at both Caroll and Downing, Downing in particular, who has arguably been more disappointing, considering his years in the Premier Leage and his international experience, neither of which Caroll had.

It also goes to show that having Premiership experience is a lazy reason to think that a player is suitable or will have fewer problems than one from abroad.
Enrique has fitted in perfectly and he has PL experience like Downing, but more importantly appears to have the mentality to cope with playing for a big club, but there are plenty of foreign players and especially those who could be labelled 'too small to cope', another lazy judgement (it's football, not Greco Roman wrestling), who have taken to the league with no problems.

[Tes]

The players are now starting to voice their frustrations:

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/7433997/

http://www.soccerway.com/news/2012/January/15/enrique-annoyed-by-lack-of-firepower/



Whether it's a goalscoring creative player or an out and out striker, we need something and the lack of goals throughout the team as a whole has to be addressed during the Summer.

Incidentally, and this is not a dig at Dalglish, but it was one of the criticisms level at what Dalglish did to the Newcastle team that included Ginola, Ferdinand and Asprilla, when replacing them with Jon Dahl Tomasson, Temuri Ketsbaia, Andreas Andersson and Des Hamilton and the struggle for goals throughout the '97/'98 season.

[Martinmarx]

Ego triumphing over basic footballing logic, represents everything that drives me nuts about Gerrard and is imo one of the reasons why we get these stupid home draws.

Some might say playing a 3-4-2-1 formation which most of the players probably never played at all might have something to do with it. I would also say that I agree with you on Gerrard, but I reckon if you want the upside of him I suppose you have to take the flipside as well.

[Ageing Stick Insect]

Tes,

I'd forgotten about Ba's knees. Maybe he's a one-season wonder. If someone does come in for him they could get their fingers burnt. Just as long as it's not us!

Take to Newcastle imports - Enrique and Carroll. Both excelled for their club in the same season. One significance difference perhaps. Enrique was looking for a move whereas Carroll wasn't. Maybe he just isn't a big club player despite an England turnout.

Downing is a disappointment given Villa aren't exactly a small club and he's played for England. A winger who often comes inside when he should be delivering crosses. Before the season started the journos were saying how well Carroll would do now that Liverpool had some width and someone who could cross the ball!

Just shows how difficult it is to find the right players!

[the dude abides]

I have no objections to people voicing their opinions. of course I don't. But what does become tiresome is the same line being rolled out time and time again. There's no need. We know how certain people feel about certain things.

Dude, 3-4 of those players have had less than one season but already you've condemned them as unfit. May I remind you that Alonso had one, possibly two seasons where he underperformed and that's why Rafa looked at Barry.

The £112M means nothing to me. It's not my money. And yes, my point was that even with more talented players Rafa still couldn't break Stoke down. Were you criticising him and his tactics then? I suspect you would blame the players but not the manager. But now, you blame everyone but especially Kenny. Weren't you one who often said you get nowhere by changing managers every 5 minutes? Personally my mind is neutral on him because I saw us play some wonderful football last season and this. Sometimes he gets tactics wrong (like yesterday) but doesn't seem to get plaudits when he gets them right.

yes, I said don't change managers every 5 minutes.

But when you keep appointing lemons, you are going to see their limitations very quickly.

What you do, is you appoint a top man and you give him the time and the resources to do the job.  You don't appoint lemons, nor do you necessarily listen to populist opinion (most football fans couldn't tell their ar.se from their elbow). 

Rafa should never have been sacked.  I always said that.  I was a massive fan of the man who had us playing superbly balanced football, who had us in two CL finals, and who had us regularly qualifying for the CL each year.....and all this despite having relative peanuts to spend 

But no, that wasn't good enough for the football fu.kwits.  They had to have Rafa sacked.  They had to have change.  They had to have an english manager (and how bad was Roy).....then they had to have Kenny.  And now those same people are too full of themselves to hold up their hand and admit they got it wrong. 

And you do not even realise the significance of what you are admitting - when you say Rafa had more talented players, than what Kenny has right now.  112 million quid spent in a year, and you astonishingly admit that we now have less talent at Anfield....and yet bizarrely you conclude that Kenny has your full support. 

It's like you saying that the sun is going down in the sky; and then concluding that it's sunrise.  Your conclusions totally contradict your findings.

And as for you saying: "The £112M means nothing to me. It's not my money."  Well that is a truly bizarre thing to say.  A club that was very close to recently going in to administration, and you reckon throwing away 112 million quid is irrelevant. 

Hicks and Gillett had a similar perspective regarding others money.

[the dude abides]

Was watching the game yesterday and Stevie G
runs half the length of the pitch to stop a ball going
out of play...

Traps it beautifully, half a foot from the touchline with
a nice piece of technique!

Turns around, proceeds to look up and immediately attempt
to play the most impossible of the (who knows 10 or so)
options available to him, a hollywood pass to a (presumably short,
'cos Carroll wasn't on, as far as I remember) player up the
far end of the pitch who was being marshalled by 2 or 3
Stoke defenders.

Possession given straight back to Stoke! Duh!

It's so dumb, race half the length of the pitch to keep possession
and the ball in play only to give it straight back.

Ego triumphing over basic footballing logic, represents everything
that drives me nuts about Gerrard and is imo one of the reasons
why we get these stupid home draws. All fancy intricate play full
of oohs and ahs with no end product when all it takes is 1 well executed
corner to dispatch most of these teams!

it's been the story of his career, Ed. 

he plays for himself and his own ego.  Useless as a member of a team.

And it's impossible to play with that type of player.  We had a lad Kevin, in and around our squad (team I played in and managed for many years).....same issue.  Awesome strength on the ball, awesome engine, stamina and skill......but as a team player, absolutely useless.....it was always about me, me, me......he could run the length of the pitch and score, but the problem was nobody could predict what he was going to do, or how to play alongside him. 

It always amazed me, that nobody in charge of things at Anfield, ever had the mental strength to pull Captain Marvel up on these very obvious shortcomings.  Ok, I know the tv studio pundits are all brainless muppets, who tow the usual media line every time a mic is near them.  But one would expect such flaws to have been addressed with the lad when he was in his teens.

There's a very good friggen reason why nobody can play alongside him, either with england or liverpool.

[Ageing Stick Insect]

yes, I said don't change managers every 5 minutes. But when you keep appointing lemons, you are going to see their limitations very quickly.

Then you're contradicting yourself dude. He's only a lemon in the eyes of a minority. If you used that rule Ferguson wouldn't have stayed at Utd 7 years before winning his first title.

What you do, is you appoint a top man and you give him the time and the resources to do the job.  You don't appoint lemons, nor do you necessarily listen to populist opinion (most football fans couldn't tell their ar.se from their elbow). 

How easy you make it sound. Top managers aren't ten-a-penny. AVB - a supposed target  for us - has been defeated twice this season at home by a supposed lemon. So who's the lemon?

Rafa should never have been sacked.  I always said that.  I was a massive fan of the man who had us playing superbly balanced football, who had us in two CL finals, and who had us regularly qualifying for the CL each year.....and all this despite having relative peanuts to spend

I like Rafa but he couldn't get us the title because his football was too cautious. The few times he let the team play with freedom we defeated Utd and Madrid but that was totally against his nature. And whilst he bought some good players he also bought some real duffers and bought a crocked midfielder when we were screaming out for another striker. Yes, he was excellent in European tactics but not domestic.

But no, that wasn't good enough for the football fu.kwits.  They had to have Rafa sacked.  They had to have change.  They had to have an english manager (and how bad was Roy).....then they had to have Kenny.  And now those same people are too full of themselves to hold up their hand and admit they got it wrong.

Were you blind to the fact that he was too political and got himself sacked? Who else has spoken like he did about Ferguson? His judgement was clouded by his dislike of the man. I don't remember the press demanding the club apoint an English manager. Why would they? I think you're loyalty to Rafa is clouding your judgement.

And you do not even realise the significance of what you are admitting - when you say Rafa had more talented players, than what Kenny has right now.  112 million quid spent in a year, and you astonishingly admit that we now have less talent at Anfield....and yet bizarrely you conclude that Kenny has your full support.

That team was constructed over 3 seasons. Kenny's is over one. Come back in 2 years if Kenny is still manager and we can make a fairer comparison. And yes, he does have my full support as every other manager has until it's clear they're not fit for the job. Roy's limitation became apparent very quickly but I don't see Kenny as a liability at present.

It's like you saying that the sun is going down in the sky; and then concluding that it's sunrise.  Your conclusions totally contradict your findings.

You are also guilty of contradicting yourself when you admit success requires mangerial stability and then call for him to be sacked one year in.

And as for you saying: "The £112M means nothing to me. It's not my money."  Well that is a truly bizarre thing to say.  A club that was very close to recently going in to administration, and you reckon throwing away 112 million quid is irrelevant. 

Hicks and Gillett had a similar perspective regarding others money.

The big difference is that was the owners money. They didn't borrow it against the club unlike H&G. And it wasn't £112M, it was £54M. £50M for Torres and £8M for Babel reduced the gross spend.

[the dude abides]

I like Rafa but he couldn't get us the title because his football was too cautious. The few times he let the team play with freedom we defeated Utd and Madrid but that was totally against his nature. And whilst he bought some good players he also bought some real duffers and bought a crocked midfielder when we were screaming out for another striker. Yes, he was excellent in European tactics but not domestic.

Were you blind to the fact that he was too political and got himself sacked? Who else has spoken like he did about Ferguson? His judgement was clouded by his dislike of the man.

I totally disagree with everything you're saying, Ray.

I picked out just one or two aspects above, in the quote.

You're sh.itting on Rafa for disliking Fergie?  Bloddy ell, though we may all respect what he has achieved, Fergie is disliked passionately by many across the football world.  He's a great football man, but as a human being, he's not particularly well liked.  And you blame Rafa for not liking him, and standing up for our club when Fergie has a go at us?  Bizarre.   If only a few more people had the courage to take Fergie on, we might see a lot more fair play among the FA and their officialdom.

And you claim Rafa played football that was too cautious.  Have you ever watched Valencia?  Have you ever watched us take on England and Europe's finest club sides under Rafa?  Have you ever seen Rafa with access to the very finest talents?  No, we never had the money to spend.  We had a net spend each season of around 16 to 17 million quid.     To compete as well as he did, was close on a miracle.  His sides were well-balanced.  Indeed, that is always the trick.   But many fans think  that our dominant era was always one of hammering the opposition 5-nil each week.  FFS It was often hard fought 1-0 wins (not unlike how United grind out title victories every season, during the run-in between February and May).

Well, you won't need to worry about top class European football anytime soon, nor competing for the Premiership.  You got your wish.  Rafa, our finest manager since the great Bob Paisley, was sacked.  Mediocrity was installed in the dugout.  You got what you wanted.  Enjoy your victory for melancholy and the past.  The battle for common sense, and objectivity, has long since been lost.

[Ed]

it's been the story of his career, Ed. 

he plays for himself and his own ego.  Useless as a member of a team.

And it's impossible to play with that type of player.  We had a lad Kevin, in and around our squad (team I played in and managed for many years).....same issue.  Awesome strength on the ball, awesome engine, stamina and skill......but as a team player, absolutely useless.....it was always about me, me, me......he could run the length of the pitch and score, but the problem was nobody could predict what he was going to do, or how to play alongside him. 

It always amazed me, that nobody in charge of things at Anfield, ever had the mental strength to pull Captain Marvel up on these very obvious shortcomings.  Ok, I know the tv studio pundits are all brainless muppets, who tow the usual media line every time a mic is near them.  But one would expect such flaws to have been addressed with the lad when he was in his teens.

There's a very good friggen reason why nobody can play alongside him, either with england or liverpool.

LOL, amid all the talk of him being the greatest player we ever had
last week and (ok, bit cynical here  ) him pulling out all the stops turn
of year to secure his lucrative new contract....and then he has no answers
against Stoke!

imo, some teams (STOKE!) just need to be beaten by sheer bloody
mindedness and a determination to get 3 points at all costs, doesn't
matter who's backside the ball goes in off 7 minutes in to stoppage time....

This, imo, is the problem with Stevie G in the league, he doesn't understand
this. Tbh, in all my days watching him play, I cannot remember him ever scoring
a crap goal, almost as if the idea is alien to him.

Did he leave the pitch yesterday feeling he'd done enough, is he beating himself
up about his contribution today, wondering why the f.uck he had to shoot from
40 yards out (he's probably just upset it didn't go in).

Anyway, Gerrard rant over for another while...Great cup player forever destined
when his career finishes to wake up every morning and wonder why he never
captained us to the title!

but I reckon if you want the upside of him I suppose you have to take the flipside as well.

Agreed!

& I'd also add there are a lot of other players in that side who need (in the words of
Roy Keane) to buck up their ideas if they think our current performance in the league
is acceptable.

What has been glossed over in some quarters is Gerrard last week talking about the return
leg of the Carling cup semi-final the way i remember him talking about playing Chelsea in the
semi-final of the Champions league a few seasons back. It's the league Stupid!