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Author Topic: Season 2011 - 2012  (Read 250795 times)

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #210 on: September 25, 2011, 10:00:21 AM »
Dude,

I'm afraid I cannot agree with anything you have written and I back Juan and Ed in their assessment of both Kenny and the team. I will just say this though. Imagine if Rafa was in charge of the kitty and player decisions. Do you imagine he would have bought Suarez, Enrique and Downing? Would the likes of Flanagan and Robinson been given a chance in the first team?

The answer has to be no in both cases. Rafa had an appalling record of bringing through the youngsters as much as I like him as a person. Rafa did buy some good players but he also bought some shocking ones. It's too early to decide if Kenny and Damian have bought any pups but even if they had it's something that happens at any club.

Give the man a chance.
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #211 on: September 25, 2011, 10:55:06 AM »
Rafa's flaws as manager will always be shadowed by the leadership, or lack of it, by G & H. For all their shortcomings and personal greed, it wasn't their fault Rafa was a total disaster in the transfer market slowly draining this club not only financially but also in terms of continuity and stability.

I don't think anyone's shouting for Kenny's head. I think he deserve this season at least before such calls should be made, just like Roy deserved it but never got it by the hypocrits that are the fanbase of this club. But there are questionmarks already over whether he's on the right path. Playing out-of-form-and-out-of-contributing players like Henderson and Carrol game after game at the expense of better and hungrier players like Kuijt and Bellamy while, at the same time, our performances are average at best will NOT see the players gel. It is increcible really he doesn't chose to use the experience he has and THEN let the new players slowly fit in. Now it's the other way round and it'll prove, I'm afraid, a disastrous decision.

Another 2 defeats and we're once again out of it in early October. Mind, I never thought we had a realistic chance to win the title. But it must be hard for the players to honestly believe themselves they belong to a top club when every year 7 months of the season is spent looking from a descendant position at the battle for the top places rather than being involved in it themselves. I don't think Kenny understand the significance of being within range for as long as possible, it's more important to prove to the world that Henderson and Carrol was worth 55 million. That's where I think he got it wrong.

If we end up pointless against the Blues and the Mancs I dread to think what'll happen during our "easy" spell before the Chelsea away game on November 20th with the squad probably quite unsettled. I'm not saying it'll happen, I'm saying the team that started against Spurs and Wolves will struggle heavily and need something extraordinary to get something from the two upcoming games.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 10:57:00 AM by Martinmarx »
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Offline Edward224

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #212 on: September 25, 2011, 01:38:17 PM »
Martin why don't you grow a pair?!

Out of it in October? Excuse fornicating me but we are 6 points behind both manc clubs and if we beat manure in 2 weeks we will be 3 points behind them, assuming we both win next week. NOT that I expect a title challenge, I do not.

Carroll had one of his best games for us yesterday, his passing was better, his positioning was better and he improved from last week certainly.

Henderson looks a little lost of course, but ask yourself why Kenny is starting him each week. Please ask yourself and tell me............




I will tell you why, because he is slowly integrating Henderson into the team which benefit us for YEARS, not days, not weeks, not months BUT YEARS.

Kuyt is better than Henderson definitely, however Henderson's raw ability is better than Kuyt's raw ability for that right hand side and if Kenny and the rest of the coaching staff  can develop Henderson's game then all the better for us. Henderson has the height and pace to make that position his own for us in future years. His passing can be excellent and his positioning, at least for Sunderland last season, was superb.

Henderson has taken a huge leap forward and it will take time for him to settle and to improve. I do think Kuyt should start in the Derby, however only because of his experience in such games.

Carroll is an investment for the future if you cannot see that then what can I say. It was not his fault that he cost £35m, so us supporters should not judge him based on what he cost, but what he can bring to the team. Carroll is a freaking monster of a player. He is strong, tough, quick and has a magnificent left foot. Yet he has never truly played for us being 100% fit and in form. He needs games to get into form and he will deliver.

Such how you can judge any player, let alone 2 clearly talented players like Henderson and Carroll so early in their careers as professionals and with us beggars belief.

And let us dissect the games we lost. First of all Stoke City. If you saw the game you would have seen us totally dominating them, our first half performance was probably our best this season. We should have have a penalty and we missed an open goal. So an unfortunate loss.

The Spurs game we were totally out played and from the first 5 mins I knew we'd lose because Spurs were the ones setting the tempo and we looked half a sleep plus we had bloody Skrtel at right back. So it was a deserved loss, however we shouldn't dwell on it and we should go forward.

And as for us being totally not near 4th at the end of the season, well I want you to explain to me why you think this, considering the following.

Our competitors for 4th are Arsenal and Spurs. Are both teams that much better than us? No. Are both teams more consistent than us? No. Will both teams go on 12 games unbeaten runs like you so claim one should do to claim a top 4 place? I'd bet my mortgage neither us 3 teams will go 12 games unbeaten during this season. It won't happen. Only 2 teams can do it imo and that is both the manc clubs.

Personally I don't think we can get 4th place............I think we can get 3rd place. Honestly I don't see Chelsea as that much better than us.

You also have to remember where we have come from. We were at the abyss staring down the black hole going into administration and we could never recover from. Arsenal and Spurs were and are on both good financial footing and have better squads at that time. We've had to go through a longer period of turnover to compete with those 2 clubs for a CL place and as such really Arsenal and Spurs should be miles ahead of us, it is a credit to the management team that we are not.

Oh and btw I saw that snide remark regarding Rafa and G&H.

Your sniggering faith in G&H over Rafa disgusts me. That you have sympathy for G&H over Rafa personally disgusts me because no matter your opinions on Rafa, G&H nearly killed our club and that you don't realise it is simply shocking.


Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #213 on: September 25, 2011, 01:56:43 PM »
Ed, no doubt your reading a lot into my previous post there's no substance for. I never said I had sympathy for G&H, for the simple reason I like any person could see they were a peril to this club's existence. What I did say, however, was that the danger G&H posed to this club, masked Rafa's constant failure in the transfer market. You can do better than that surely.

As for my questioning of Kenny's decision to play Henderson and Carrol I think it's just a matter of opinion how you win success. Unlike you I believe it is wrong to play players for the sake of it, in the hope they'll gel, develop what have you into superstars all of a sudden lifting this club to championship glory. It's a nice thought but I think you'll struggle to find many examples in history that support that theory. Quite the other way round, my theory is that what will really help Henderson and Carrol to settle in and develop into the players they're hoped to be is to have a winning side, a harmonious and comfortable side. Then it makes sense to help the new and younger players get into the team and also providing them with a real chance. As it is, Carrol needs to start scoring now or the media will haunt him even more, meaning the pressure will grow by every game to such extent it may in effect halt his development. Can't you see that? Can't you see both Henderson and Carrol are both empty on confidence? Isn't it better in such a situation to use the more experienced players to build a winning culture that Henderson and Carrol is part of? I fear playing Carrol and Henderson may thwart whatever potential they had.

You say we're only 6 points behind the Mancs. Yeah, very good if today was march 15 or something. My point is that based on our last 2 performances there's little or nothing to suggest we could win our next two games if we keep our starting line-up unchanged. If you think differently that's fine by me.

Please make an effort to try to understand what I say.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 02:06:05 PM by Martinmarx »
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #214 on: September 25, 2011, 02:04:06 PM »
Another 2 defeats and we're once again out of it in early October. Mind, I never thought we had a realistic chance to win the title.
None of us thought we had a chance of winning the title this season but the club just take one game at a time.

You really do invite criticism when you come out with such rubbish. We're 2 points behind 4th placed Newcastle and 6pts behind the leaders but you already have us 'out of it'. Even a Manure supporter wouldn't make such a stupid comment.  >:(

Your comments beggar belief for a supposed Liverpool fan. I still retain doubts you are when you continue to spell Kuyt's name incorrectly.  ::)
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #215 on: September 25, 2011, 02:13:41 PM »
That's because I spell his name in Dutch. Stupid me.

But if we lose against the Blues away and the Mancs at home, which I find likely if Kenny keep his starting line-up from the last two games unchanged we WILL in effect be out of it. As I said above I never thought we'd stand a realistic chance to win it this year. That's not the point, the point is what it does to a squad's selfperception to be hopelessly left behind in early October year after year pretty much as Bolton, Villa, Stoke etc. Can't you see that? Is it beyond you we need to play at our maximum with our strongst XI to win the next two games? You don't need to like me, but your tideous rants about my support, or lack of it, because I don't share your uncritical and anti-intellectual Tomkinesque view on footy really starts to get tiresome.
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #216 on: September 25, 2011, 02:24:42 PM »
The problem I have with your comments Martin is that they are always negative. You say "if we lose against the Blues and Mancs" but why can't you think more positively and at least hope LFC could win those games? Any supporter would think that way but you seem to be the exception. That's why I get annoyed with you. Can you understand that?

Your suggestion that we should play our strongest side means the players who aren't picked would never get a decent run and would therefore never improve. Carroll - by popular perception both here and by UK journalists - had a decent game. Why can't you just occasionally see something good instead of this incessant negativity? It's extremely annoying that you don't see things in a balanced way.
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #217 on: September 25, 2011, 02:38:03 PM »
The problem I have with your comments Martin is that they are always negative. You say "if we lose against the Blues and Mancs" but why can't you think more positively and at least hope LFC could win those games? Any supporter would think that way but you seem to be the exception. That's why I get annoyed with you. Can you understand that?

Your suggestion that we should play our strongest side means the players who aren't picked would never get a decent run and would therefore never improve. Carroll - by popular perception both here and by UK journalists - had a decent game. Why can't you just occasionally see something good instead of this incessant negativity? It's extremely annoying that you don't see things in a balanced way.

This is where we differ, ASI. Your wish, desire, hope we'll win our next two games is no bigger than mine. Nothing would make me happier than if we did. But I also feel a need to be honest. Being honest means I need to look at our last two performances and make a conclusion what's the most plausible outcome if we continue to play the same side. No matter what I FEEL, HOPE or DESIRE my HONEST opinion is that it'll take something out of the extraordinary to get something from those games. Is that being negative or is it making an honest analysis? You decide. What's the point in having such a forum if we're only allowed to share our feelings, hopes and desires? What's wrong with trying to make an honest analysis of where our beloved club is and where we think it is going.

You say Carrol had a decent game according to UK journos. I saw the game and he had his momenst but he also looked slow, out of pace and sharpness and out of confidence. And this was against a side fighting to stay up less than 5 months ago, not an Everton side with all the energy that comes with a derby or the best defence in the country that is ManU.

I'm not negative for the sake of it.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 02:41:12 PM by Martinmarx »
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #218 on: September 25, 2011, 05:14:44 PM »
I feel no need to be honest because I don't have to convince anyone of anything. If we win and play well I'm happy. If we win and are a bit lucky then fine. I've lost count of the number of times other teams have done that. If we lose but play well I take solace from the fact that we were unlucky. if we play poorly and lose (like last Sunday) then I'm annoyed. I accept that Kenny  does what he thinks is best for the team and club. I don't analyse things to death like some here may do.

Whilst you have the advantage over me in that you see more televised games you see things differently quite often. That's your privilege. You see a 50% full glas as half-empty, I see it as half-full when it comes to Liverpool. I will always try to see things in the best light because it's in my nature to.

If, as you say, you think Carroll is lacking confidence how do you suggest Kenny tackles that? By dropping him? That would undo any progress already made. He needs games and that's why Kenny is persisting with him when Kuyt is probably more deserving of a game. It's about looking at the long-term, not the short term as Ed alluded to.

I'm not going to speculate about how we will perform against Everton and Manure but if we should win either I look forward to hearing your views on how well we played.
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #219 on: September 25, 2011, 07:32:20 PM »
Henderson looks a little lost of course, but ask yourself why Kenny is starting him each week. Please ask yourself and tell me............
I hope the reason that Kenny is starting him is because he has earned the right to wear the
shirt over the course of the weeks training. LFC, first and foremost is in the business of winning
football games!

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #220 on: September 25, 2011, 07:37:36 PM »
But you see, this is where you get it so wrong. This ain't a sport for individuals, it's a team sport. Collective over individuals, period! If Andy Carrol's low on confidence, then he's low on confidence. Play another player who's not so inexperienced or limited. Do what's best for the team, play the team with the most likely chance to win a game. That's the only way to produce a culture, an atmosphere in which Carrol's confidence has a genuine chance to grow back. Is it worth taking a chance Carrol and Henderson may come good in an indefinitive future for missing out on 4th yet again? That's in effect what you're saying mate, and you call into question my support for this club. That's a tad rich, to be honest. If he can't take being dropped for a game or 5 then you really got to ask the question what be paid for.

If we're not supposed to analyse and try to understand our teams fortunes and mishaps, then what's the point coming here. Hell, what's the point in watching at all?
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #221 on: September 25, 2011, 08:38:02 PM »
Martin,

I haven't got the energy to continue this conversation any longer. Get one of the others to engage in the debate.
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #222 on: September 26, 2011, 12:20:11 AM »
Henderson and Carroll are a perfect example of why there needs to be a re-vamp of the whole reserve team football concept in this country.
Two young players, both left their hometown clubs, both could have stayed and would have become (if they weren't already) hometown heroes.
They would benefit from taking the massive step up, with all it entails, to a big club, by playing reserve team football, where there's less pressure but where they'd learn all about what it takes to be at a big club.

They'd get first team minutes in games that suited them best, whilst continuing their education in the reserves.

The fact that the reserve football setup is a joke, needs desperately to be re-vamped and the fact that it won't be, is one of the reasons for English football's demise and underperformance.

We can't have B teams playing in the lower leagues but neither can young players or players returning from injury or players needing to regain form and/or confidence, play at a reasonably high, competative level in this country.
Players who aren't playing regularly don't get a chance to maintain fitness or try to fight their way back into the reckoning. Older players can't be phased out, whilst still maintaining match fitness should they be required or be able to hand on their experience to younger up and coming players. 
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #223 on: September 27, 2011, 08:21:38 PM »
Steve Clarke defends Liverpool's 'average start'

Tuesday 27 September 2011


The Liverpool first-team coach, Steve Clarke, says the club's "average start" to the season is partly due to the changes taking place within the squad. The side have 10 points from six matches after losing at Stoke and Tottenham.

At a similar stage last season their tally was six and discontent was growing against the manager, Roy Hodgson, whose reign lasted six months when he was sacked in January.

As part of the overhaul, financed by the owners, Fenway Sports Group, and undertaken by Kenny Dalglish on his return to take charge of the club, seven players were signed in the summer with numerous others heading in the opposite direction.

Most of those new arrivals have featured in most of the opening matches and while Liverpool have played well in patches they are still to consistently produce their top form.

"Without getting too carried away or too disappointed it's probably just an average start," said Clarke. "You're probably looking at about a seven out of 10. Some pleasing performances and some not so pleasing, but you'd expect that from a group of players where you've made so many changes and you're trying to bed a few things down."

One of the key factors in picking up three wins has been the form of the four-goal striker Luis Suárez, with seven of Liverpool's 10 points coming in matches when he has scored. The 24-year-old was voted fans' man of the match for the fifth time in eight games this season (he has played in both Carling Cup ties) after Saturday's win over Wolves.

But it is the Uruguay international's determination to do well – highlighted by his frustration when he was substituted 10 minutes from the end at the weekend – which has equally impressed.

"With any top player the mentality is always that bit stronger. That's what separates them," Clarke said. "There are a lot of good players at this level and the really, really top ones have got that mental edge that drives them on all the time and produces the kind of performances that we've had from Luis so far.

"He's very grounded. He comes back in on Monday morning and works as hard as ever in training, he upsets all the defenders, scores a couple of goals and that's what he's all about. He trains like he plays – absolutely, every day. He loves to be playing football and that's a great thing."

Suárez was replaced by the captain, Steven Gerrard, making his first Premier League appearance for six months after a groin operation. The return of the England midfielder, who added to his 15-minute Carling Cup appearance last Wednesday, is a boost to everyone at Anfield.

He is lacking in match sharpness and this weekend's Merseyside derby at Goodison Park may come just a little too early for him to make his first start of the season. However, that will not stop the Huyton-born 31-year-old pushing for a place in the lineup.

"Steven himself will dictate the pace of his comeback with how he progresses in training," added Clarke. "We're delighted with the stage he's at, we're delighted with everything he's done for us. We could maybe have got Steven on a little bit earlier [against Wolves] but it didn't work out that way. We've got a full week now and we can use him well in training."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/sep/27/steve-clarke-liverpool-average-start

All we can hope is by the end of the season, all the changes equal improvement.

I'd say we're still short of two or three more technically proficient players, with Aquilani and Meireles leaving, but we still have Maxi, who I'd place in that category, but he doesn't get used enough.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #224 on: September 29, 2011, 06:01:48 PM »
Big Game coming up Saturday...

Feeling nervous already!

Can't wait for it  :)

They're gonna give us nothing!

Big Andy Carroll here's your chance!