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Author Topic: Season 2011 - 2012  (Read 351271 times)

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #300 on: November 05, 2011, 11:52:27 PM »
Not a bad effort my friend.  A pity you had to be so tight on the curly wurly.

I ate the other half, otherwise the offer would have been higher. I'd also send all the Cadbury's fudge with him, dire stuff.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #301 on: November 05, 2011, 11:58:01 PM »
The promoted teams are proving a real banana skin for us this season.

4-4-2 needs to be placed back in the archives with the Magna Carta. It's leaving us for too open in midfield.

If Carroll scores, Downing gets his first assist and we get three points. Fine margins.

I really can't understand why Dalglish has deviated so much from what he was doing in the second half of last season. That was there to be built on, not dismantled and rebuilt differently.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

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Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #302 on: November 06, 2011, 01:35:30 AM »
I really can't understand why Dalglish has deviated so much from what he was doing in the second half of last season. That was there to be built on, not dismantled and rebuilt differently.

Thats the baffling thing in all of these games. In the second half of last season Kenny adopted a pass and move style approach where when we gained possession players poured forward and bust a gut to get themselves into the box. I dont see that so much this season. The pass and move is still there but isnt being played effectively. Its also baffling that the main beneficaries of that approach like Maxi have now been shunned.

I wont change my opinion on the newer players, they still need a season before they can be judged fairly. Their progress to date is probably not where I would have expected it to be. To give an honest assessment of how this season is going for the new players I would say Carroll doesnt look like the same aerial dominating player he was at Newcastle, Henderson looks no better than Spearing did last season, Adam looks worth just about the 7 million pounds we paid for him and Downing is anonimous 75 % of the time. I am still totally optimistic that those players will come good. It just raises the question that maybe Kenny has tried to integrate too many newer players too quickly. Hindsight is always great but maybe he should have had more faith with the likes of Maxi and Spearing and made some of the newer players earn their place in the team. Better yet maybe its time to reintegrate some of the players that performed for him last season in place of whoevers not performing.

Sadly when I watch Liverpool at the moment I cant help but feeling that I could be watching any mid table side where your just not sure which way the result will go. As the season goes on we're definitely not at the same level as Man City, United. Even Chelsea, the rejuvinated Arsenal and Tottenham feel like they are probably a level above us. A run of wins would change that but at the moment we just seem likley to drop points home or away.

Im not sure what Kenny needs to do but whats occuring right now isnt working. We've always had a very good spine to the team, even over the last decade, our central defenders, central midfielders and strikers have been very strong. From Hypia, Henchoz, Carragher, Alonso, Gerrard, Mascherano, Hammann, Owen, Fowler, Torres, Suarez the central areas have been rock solid. It was the peripheral wider areas where we tended to have issue. I dont see that solidity in central defence, I dont see the world class quality in central midfield and at the moment Suarez is the only player stepping up to the mark up front. So I just wonder even though our squad is definitely stronger this season is the spine of the team actually somewhat weak?

Kenny has alot of work to do to get the team where it needs to be. I hope the American owners are patient and give Kenny the time required. We dont want to go down the Chelsea route of changing managers. Hodgson was unlucky to get the sack given the circumstances during which he managed but he was the wrong man for the wrong club. The only way we will know if Kenny is the right man is by giving him time and money.

Offline barticus

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #303 on: November 06, 2011, 06:27:19 AM »
Agreed Tes and Juan...
I think the main problem between the second half of last season and this one is that we were on the bare bones last season and now we're supposed to have an embarrassment of 'riches'...

We have made some good acquisitions over the summer with enrique, coates (still a lot of learning to do) and bellamy....they can easily fit into the attacking system of last season...

But the real problem is the expensive 'holy trinity'...can you imagine what rafa would have bought with 75 mil?
Last season we couldn't play Carroll so we didn't have that problem...we had merieles covering for gerrard and we had kuyt and maxi who are far better players than henderson and downing...
Because we've spent so much on the english trinity, kenny has to play them...
but the liverpool way was that players were terrified of getting injured as they thought they'd never get back into the team...competition for places is essential...
these new players need to know that they have to be at their very best to even be in the team...and at the moment they seem a little 'lightweight'...

we're too weak in midfield with downing, lucas, adam and henderson...We need to stick to 4-5-1....if that means turning carroll into supersub status then so be it...
the team is the most important thing and not personal ego's...we need to start playing as a team in order to get top 4...(look at newcastle...they lose their 4 biggest players and they start playing as a team!)
we need to utilise all of our players...
we need to introduce our youngsters once more...remember last season and we were talking about sterling, sosa and the like? That's not even being mentioned now...
if we continue with the current lineup we'll be lucky to get into Europe because there will be too many points dropped against smaller teams...
Which will mean our disgruntled players will be gone..maxi on a free....a bid from inter (as an example) for kuyt...aquilani moves back to italy...and dare i say it our top performers wanting to play champions league...
Any takers on Barca in for suarez to replace an aging david villa?

not a case of 'apocalypse now', just a case of 'apocalypse not quite yet' and so avoidable...if a gap starts appearing though between us and the top 6....then questions will start to be asked no matter who's in charge...


« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 06:29:32 AM by barticus »

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #304 on: November 06, 2011, 05:03:22 PM »
I hear what you're saying Bart, Juan and Tes but think back a month or so. Who would have thought Arsenal could turn around their performances like they've done. Not me and I bet not any of you.

We have 27 games to go and are only 3 pts away from 4th. That doesn't constitute a crisis in my books. Newcastle have only played Arsenal and Spurs from those in the top 7-8 places. Both at home and they beat neither. They still have to play Utd, City, Chelsea and us home and away. I'm not saying they're not playing well but they haven't been seriously tested yet.

There are fine lines between success and failure. Of the 11 times we've hit the woodwork if only a couple of those had gone in we would have won the game instead of drawing it. Yesterday being a classic example where it was easier to score than miss by Carroll.

Apart from City I don't see any team that hasn't gone through a bad patch this season. Everyone gets them. We're unbeaten in 6 and because 2 of those were at home against promoted teams that we didn't beat that constitutes a crisis apparently.

I was at Anfield back in 81 for the first league game after Shanks died. We played Swansea. We drew 2-2 and it took 2 pens by McDermott. Swansea were promoted that season. And that was with a team that comprised Grobbelaar, Neal, A.Kennedy, Thompson, Lawrenson, Whelan, Dalglish, Lee, Johnson (Sheedy 89), McDermott, Souness.

Our first 6 home games that season were W2, D3, L1. We won the title, 4 pts clear of Ipswich.

I'm not going to say we'll win the league but all it takes is a good spell when we win a sequence of games. Just like last season with supposed inferior players to those we have now. They just gelled better probably because most of them played week in week out. As Alan Hansen always said. When you're going through a bad patch just keep playing your best 11. That's what we should do. Crisis? What crisis?
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #305 on: November 06, 2011, 08:24:00 PM »
They just gelled better probably because most of them played week in week out.
I tend to agree, although i still haven't watched yesterday's game yet.

On paper (i know it's kind of stupid to say) the team should work and it may
just be that they haven't figured out yet how to function as a team (or maybe
they're the wrong players?).

Thinking back to Dalglish's previous tenure. 90% of what that team did was almost
on auto-pilot with the likes of Barnes, Beardsley, Aldridge and Houghton. Houghton
hustling around the centre and starting the attack, Barnes providing the width on the wing,
a bit of trickery and link up play in the final third from Beardsley and Aldridge on the end
of every cross.

Or something like that...it was a rhythm and they did it over and over in each game with
minor variations. I think that we have most of the bits and pieces to be very good, but there's
something missing....a spark somewhere? Not an easy thing to fix, mind....remember Rafa had a
similar problem and at some point, switched Gerrard to play off Torres.

imo, Kuyt is a clever player (people on here are saying he no longer has the energy) who could
play in any team and adapt. I'm not saying that he's the solution but, I think him being sidelined
or marginalised this season to accommodate Henderson may have been premature (it left a gap
somewhere that the team has yet to come to terms with, most likely hustling effectively high up
the pitch...the thing about Kuyt is he works for 90 minutes).

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #306 on: November 06, 2011, 10:38:00 PM »
I hear what you're saying Bart, Juan and Tes but think back a month or so. Who would have thought Arsenal could turn around their performances like they've done. Not me and I bet not any of you.

We have 27 games to go and are only 3 pts away from 4th. That doesn't constitute a crisis in my books. Newcastle have only played Arsenal and Spurs from those in the top 7-8 places. Both at home and they beat neither. They still have to play Utd, City, Chelsea and us home and away. I'm not saying they're not playing well but they haven't been seriously tested yet.

There are fine lines between success and failure. Of the 11 times we've hit the woodwork if only a couple of those had gone in we would have won the game instead of drawing it. Yesterday being a classic example where it was easier to score than miss by Carroll.

Apart from City I don't see any team that hasn't gone through a bad patch this season. Everyone gets them. We're unbeaten in 6 and because 2 of those were at home against promoted teams that we didn't beat that constitutes a crisis apparently.

I was at Anfield back in 81 for the first league game after Shanks died. We played Swansea. We drew 2-2 and it took 2 pens by McDermott. Swansea were promoted that season. And that was with a team that comprised Grobbelaar, Neal, A.Kennedy, Thompson, Lawrenson, Whelan, Dalglish, Lee, Johnson (Sheedy 89), McDermott, Souness.

Our first 6 home games that season were W2, D3, L1. We won the title, 4 pts clear of Ipswich.

I'm not going to say we'll win the league but all it takes is a good spell when we win a sequence of games. Just like last season with supposed inferior players to those we have now. They just gelled better probably because most of them played week in week out. As Alan Hansen always said. When you're going through a bad patch just keep playing your best 11. That's what we should do. Crisis? What crisis?

ASI, I don't think anyone is thinking in terms of crisis, but our overall play isn't as crisp as it had been last season and it's debatable whether the players brought in have actually improved the team and taken it on from where it was with the players they've replaced.

Granted, with any European football we weren't going to attract the so-called big names, so we needed to be smarter, bring in the likes of Hyypia, Alonso, Pepe, Arbeloa etc. In other words, make our own stars.
I'm really not sure we've done that. Interestingly, the best of the Summer's purchases has been Enrique (Bellamy not included as he was free) who arguably was a value for money acquisition. It's hard to say the others were.

I think people are looking for signs of promise and hints of progress and finding it too hard to find much. At the moment we seem to be there or there abouts, but a few more weeks of the same and Arsenal and Spurs will have opened up clear daylight.
We're undefeated in seven, but Spurs and Arsenalare putting together good undefeated runs now but they're stringing wins together in that run where as we are are merely remaining undefeated. I'm not even worried about Newcastle (not yet anyway). They're the Sunderland and Bolton from last season.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #307 on: November 06, 2011, 10:47:48 PM »
I tend to agree, although i still haven't watched yesterday's game yet.

On paper (i know it's kind of stupid to say) the team should work and it may
just be that they haven't figured out yet how to function as a team (or maybe
they're the wrong players?).
Without knowing what happens on the training pitch we're all guessing. These are talented players but the young ones are perhaps feeling the pressure of expectation. A spell in the reserves was usual back in the 80s and earlier but instant results are expected these days. I'm sure they'll come good.

Quote
...it was a rhythm and they did it over and over in each game with
minor variations. I think that we have most of the bits and pieces to be very good, but there's
something missing....a spark somewhere? Not an easy thing to fix, mind....remember Rafa had a
similar problem and at some point, switched Gerrard to play off Torres.
That's what makes the difference between an average manager and a good one. Spotting the small detail and making subtle changes. In fairness to Henderson he as brought in as Gerrard's understudy but with SG having so few games he hasn't made as much progress as expected.

Quote
imo, Kuyt is a clever player (people on here are saying he no longer has the energy) who could
play in any team and adapt. I'm not saying that he's the solution but, I think him being sidelined
or marginalised this season to accommodate Henderson may have been premature (it left a gap
somewhere that the team has yet to come to terms with, most likely hustling effectively high up
the pitch...the thing about Kuyt is he works for 90 minutes).

Agree totally with that. He scored highly in Fantasy Football last season and he still has high energy levels. I don't like the way he's been sidelined.
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #308 on: November 06, 2011, 10:54:56 PM »
ASI, I don't think anyone is thinking in terms of crisis, but our overall play isn't as crisp as it had been last season and it's debatable whether the players brought in have actually improved the team and taken it on from where it was with the players they've replaced.
Not you Tes but I do have someone in mind. Those performances last season came out of the blue and confidence was a huge factor. But tiredness barged in with 2 games to go and we saw the results. With a new midfield this season it shouldn't be surprising results are a bit variable but at least there have been some good performances. And in reality we've only had the one horror show at Spurs.

Quote
Granted, with any European football we weren't going to attract the so-called big names, so we needed to be smarter, bring in the likes of Hyypia, Alonso, Pepe, Arbeloa etc. In other words, make our own stars.
January should be interesting. I'm sure the squad will be strengthened.


Quote
I think people are looking for signs of promise and hints of progress and finding it too hard to find much. At the moment we seem to be there or there abouts, but a few more weeks of the same and Arsenal and Spurs will have opened up clear daylight.
We're undefeated in seven, but Spurs and Arsenalare putting together good undefeated runs now but they're stringing wins together in that run where as we are are merely remaining undefeated. I'm not even worried about Newcastle (not yet anyway). They're the Sunderland and Bolton from last season.

I know draws and almost as bad as losses but Spurs et al will have hiccups. Spurs were very lucky today and 1-3 totally flattered them. With Harry out for several weeks it will be interesting to see how they get on especially when crucial Europa games have to be mixed with Prem ones. There's a lot of  water to go under that bridge...
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #309 on: November 06, 2011, 11:53:50 PM »
Theres alot of valid points been made here, Tes I agree not everybody sees this as a crisis and everyone is realistic enough to know unless we start winning, not even perfroming well but just picking up 3 points soon then we wont even be contenders for the final champions league spot.

Unfortunately being unbeaten doesnt matter much in this league. The number of wins across a season are what makes the difference between finishing 5th and finishing 2nd or 1st. Drawing at home to Sunderland, Norwich and Swansea is as good as two defeats out of the three which is not champions league qualification form not to mind any higher.

My issue at the moment is I dont know how Kenny is going to get passed this current poor run of form. How does he stop the side consistently getting cut open at the back while not being able to convert their chances up front. Breaking it down further we have a defence that leaks goals, we have an ineffective midfield and a misfiring forward line. How do you fix that? Persevere with the same team and hope it clicks? Try different tactics? Change the team? Obviously this is the test of Kennys management skills. I think he will eventually find the right answer but right now I havent a clue what the solution is.

Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #310 on: November 07, 2011, 12:11:22 AM »
On another note while I watched the Liverpool Swansea game a thought occurred to me. What is our insistence with getting the ball into the box at head height or above when at times we may have one man in the box being surrounded by 3 or more opposing players? Surely the chances of scoring from those situations are slim but we continue to do it. Im not talking about long punts from defence but players whipping balls in from outside the 18 yard area. And its not just a case that it only occurs when Andy Carrols in the box. Its something you rarely ever see Barcelona do. They will keep the ball and generally try to find a measured pass on the floor to another player making a run. They dont constantly whip balls into the box in the hope that a player will get a head to it. I dont want us to start attempting to walk the ball into the net like Arsenal or Im not suggesting we have the personnel to play like Barcelona but I would like to see clever football being played in the opposing teams area instead of what seems to be an awful lot of hit and hope at times.

As I say just a thought.

Offline barticus

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #311 on: November 07, 2011, 01:24:21 PM »
Liverpool's Daniel Agger has warned Liverpool must raise their game if they are to avoid yet another season without Champions League football.

The Denmark international pulled no punches in his assessment of his side's goalless draw with Swansea at the weekend - a result that means the Reds have now failed to pick up maximum points in four of six Premier League outings at Anfield this season.

"Sometimes we looked like headless chickens running around after the ball," Agger said

Despite their indifferent form, Kenny Dalglish's men are just three points off the Champions League berths in sixth place - but with games against Chelsea and leaders Manchester City looming, Agger admits now is the time to raise the standard.

"If we play like this, we won't do it [qualify for the Champions League]," he said.


Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #312 on: November 08, 2011, 12:38:45 AM »
Liverpool's Daniel Agger has warned Liverpool must raise their game if they are to avoid yet another season without Champions League football.

The Denmark international pulled no punches in his assessment of his side's goalless draw with Swansea at the weekend - a result that means the Reds have now failed to pick up maximum points in four of six Premier League outings at Anfield this season.

"Sometimes we looked like headless chickens running around after the ball," Agger said

Despite their indifferent form, Kenny Dalglish's men are just three points off the Champions League berths in sixth place - but with games against Chelsea and leaders Manchester City looming, Agger admits now is the time to raise the standard.

"If we play like this, we won't do it [qualify for the Champions League]," he said.

Tell it to your team mates, Daniel, not the national media.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #313 on: November 08, 2011, 12:44:21 AM »
Finally watched the game!

That lad Henderson gave away possession every time
he got the ball in the first half. Must be nerves or the
weight of expectation he feels playing in front of the
home crowd. I'm surprised his introduction to the team
has been botched so badly.

Play the experienced guy, introduce the understudy
gradually...

Forgot their keeper was so good, at times though
a point for us felt generous?? This Swansea team
came close to giving us a footballing lesson in the
second half!

4-4-2 needs to be placed back in the archives
with the Magna Carta. It's leaving us for too open
in midfield.

Tend to agree Tes, based on Saturday, but i think Gerrard
and Lucas in a 4-4-2 at home is still an option?

It's not all doom and gloom though, I liked the display of
character in the last 5 minutes, likes of Lucas, Agger, Kuyt,
even Johnson. I also think Adam played 2 super passes to
release Downing earlier in the game.

Liverpool's Daniel Agger has warned Liverpool must raise their game if they are to avoid yet another season without Champions League football.

Agger's the man to turn things around. He's a class act, imo.

Anyway, I'm happy with the quality that we have in the side
at the moment and reminded of that quote from the Damned United:

"You're a genius, Pete.
Bloody genius. How did you see it?
Don't know. It's just obvious.

McGovern in midfield.
Mackay at the back. O'Hare up front.
 
It's the skewer, isn't it?
In the shish kebab.
 
Beautiful.
 
A thing of fornicating beauty."


It will be when Kenny gets it right!!!!

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #314 on: November 08, 2011, 08:19:27 PM »
Theres alot of valid points been made here, Tes I agree not everybody sees this as a crisis and everyone is realistic enough to know unless we start winning, not even perfroming well but just picking up 3 points soon then we wont even be contenders for the final champions league spot.

Unfortunately being unbeaten doesnt matter much in this league. The number of wins across a season are what makes the difference between finishing 5th and finishing 2nd or 1st. Drawing at home to Sunderland, Norwich and Swansea is as good as two defeats out of the three which is not champions league qualification form not to mind any higher.

My issue at the moment is I dont know how Kenny is going to get passed this current poor run of form. How does he stop the side consistently getting cut open at the back while not being able to convert their chances up front. Breaking it down further we have a defence that leaks goals, we have an ineffective midfield and a misfiring forward line. How do you fix that? Persevere with the same team and hope it clicks? Try different tactics? Change the team? Obviously this is the test of Kennys management skills. I think he will eventually find the right answer but right now I havent a clue what the solution is.

It's a real problem isn't it, Juan. Confidence looks to be in short supply with some players, but if they're dropped what does that do to their confidence. If we wait and let them play themselves back into form/confidence then will we have lost ground and given ourselves a mountain to climb later in the season?
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.