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Author Topic: Season 2011 - 2012  (Read 343583 times)

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #390 on: December 06, 2011, 08:57:47 PM »
Martin,

Kuyt is now 31 and although he has a huge reserve he's perhaps unable to play 40+ games a season. I'm sure that's the reason Kenny rests him occasionally. And bear in mind he hasn't scored this season.

I don't have a problem with players being rotated / rested but Maxi was crying out to be played last night and I can't find any report that asked Kenny why he didn't play him.

Surely he has to start on Saturday otherwise he will be putting in for a transfer and one of the top 5 are bound to make an offer. We can't keep haemorrhaging our better players to the opposition.
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #391 on: December 06, 2011, 09:11:00 PM »
Agreed, ASI, Maxi is the sort of technical player we need more of, not fewer of.

Dirk most definately is the one player who always looks to be on the same wavelength as Suarez but as you say age is against him playing every game and as he is a genuine big game player it is better to be selective about the games he plays. It shows that we still have gaps in the squad but the comparative lack of depth in the squad could never be addessed in just one or two windows.
Afterall, our rivals squads weren't assembled in a couple of windows, not even City's.

What is clear is that we need to aim higher than the Downings etc next Summer, and getting Suarez has shown it's not impossible. Difficult, granted, but not impossible.

It's interesting how many players have expressed a desire or preference to play for Arsenal, despite their lack of trophies and never being in any danger of regularly reaching the latter stages of the CL. The reason they give is their style of play. So it shows you can attract some players without regular success or the offer of eye watering salaries. 
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #392 on: December 06, 2011, 10:36:27 PM »
Jesus, even watching the game today, I still thought
we'd have enough to scrape a win (how deluded am I?).

Anyway, Fulham gave us a good game, so no complaints
there. Wasn't a red card in my opinion, if the player doesn't
win the ball, then he's timed it wrong, it shouldn't be Spearing's
problem wherever the opponent has ended up (is he supposed
to let the opponent win the ball? c'mon, ffs, ridiculous!).
Anyway, I think Everton had a similar view when we played
them, so we move on...

Quite simply we're NOT CLINICAL enough in front of goal.
Granted we've come up against some good keepers but
they're all beatable.

Heads up, no feeling sorry for ourselves (in fact we could learn
something from Fulham's grit!). We're not good enough at the
moment, so we need to improve!

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #393 on: December 06, 2011, 11:20:53 PM »
I hope the data below shows up properly. It shows a league table based on goals scored. The actual position is extreme left and position based on goals scored far right. What I find incredible is that Blackburn, Norwich and Bolton have scored more goals than Liverpool.  And not surprisingly, we are sitting mid table :o

1   Man City   48   1
2   Man Utd   31   2
4   Chelsea   31   3
5   Arsenal   30   4
3   Spurs   29   5
18   Blackburn   21   6
11   Norwich   20   7
6   Newcastle   19   8
19   Bolton   19   9
7   Liverpool   17   10
9   Villa   16   11
13   Fulham   16   12
17   Sunderland   16   13
10   Everton   15   14
12   QPR   15   15
16   Wolves   15   16
8   Stoke   14   17
15   Swansea   14   18
14   WBA   13   19
20   Wigan   12   20

This should be an area of serious concern for all at the club. We have a world-class striker in Suarez and other quality players who are more than capable of scoring goals so the question has to be asked - why aren't we putting the ball in the back of the net more often?

The number of times we've hit the woodwork could be one answer - 12 - but it has to be more than that. We were banging them in last season from Feb-April. There was a freedom about our play that we seem to have temporarily lost. Yes, we bomb forward at times but do we really get enough players in the box? Our better defensive record suggests we don't.

I agree that a clean sheet is important but a better balance has to be found. We need to throw more players forward and kill a game early.

One other worrying fact. In our last 6 games we have scored 6 goals. 6 other clubs have scored the same. None have scored less. One of those 6 was... Manure who actually conceded 7 in their last 6 compared to us conceding 4 but somehow they accumulated 3 more points!!  :(
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 11:25:58 PM by Ageing Stick Insect »
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #394 on: December 06, 2011, 11:35:25 PM »
Martin,

Kuyt is now 31 and although he has a huge reserve he's perhaps unable to play 40+ games a season. I'm sure that's the reason Kenny rests him occasionally. And bear in mind he hasn't scored this season.

I don't have a problem with players being rotated / rested but Maxi was crying out to be played last night and I can't find any report that asked Kenny why he didn't play him.

Surely he has to start on Saturday otherwise he will be putting in for a transfer and one of the top 5 are bound to make an offer. We can't keep haemorrhaging our better players to the opposition.

We're not in Europe. On average he's getting 7 days rest between every game for God's sake. Plus he's one of our mist physically fit and least injury prone players. Wrap it in whatever form or shape you like ASI - the table doesn't lie. We're not good enough under Kenny and there's little to suggest that fact wil change any time soon.
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #395 on: December 07, 2011, 01:46:18 AM »
We're not good enough under Kenny.
So far this season, imo, there's merit in this argument.

there's little to suggest that fact wil change any time soon.
However, again imo, there's plenty to suggest that there's
enough quality and character in the side to compete in
the Prem. this season.

I don't have the facts to hand, but there are recent unbeaten runs
that are being overlooked in your argument. ASI had stats about
hitting the woodwork earlier.

As Lucas has shown (and hitting the woodwork includes), it's a
game of inches and we take it one step at a time. The fans have
their part to play!

Imo, guys like Reina, Enrique, Adam, Suarez, Agger, the boy Spearing,
Kelly have shown that they want to play for the club (wear the badge!).
Did you ever think to get behind those lads with a roar of encouragement?
SUCK that ball into the net, make our ground a fortress??

It's easy to wallow in negativity and crises, ultimately though what
we all want is to get back up there and win trophies!

There's no room for feeling sorry for ourselves, we need to improve and
hopefully, starting against QPR we'll do that!

btw, I wonder if the Evra thing is affecting Suarez?

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #396 on: December 07, 2011, 08:43:01 AM »
Ed, I'm not wallowing in negativity, I just call the shots as I see them. I would agree we seem to be a tad more unlucky than most other team. However, having splashed out some 100 million this year alone you'd expect us to do better than this. Also, I don't rate unbeaten runs if they're based on draws at home against newly promoted sides or bottom half sides.

Kenny just doesn't understand the importance of playing his best team, nor does he seem to understand that playing his flop signings ain't gonna save his job in the long run. And I won't even mention his inability/reluctance to change a game by switching formation and/or using the bench pre-75th minute.

Carrol, Downing and Henderson. Now that's some 70 million worth of crap. Roy was lambasted for splashing out the total sum of 4 million on Konchesky and Jovanovic while Kenny's regarded a great manager for a reason I struggle to understand. The world has indeed gone crazy.

It's not a knee-jerk reaction, it's an analysis based of watching his management for almost a calendar year. His appointent was merely based on emotional sentiment rather than footy merits.
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #397 on: December 07, 2011, 10:21:33 AM »
Ed, I'm not wallowing in negativity, I just call the shots as I see them. I would agree we seem to be a tad more unlucky than most other teams. However, having splashed out some 100 million this year alone you'd expect us to do better than this. Also, I don't rate unbeaten runs if they're based on draws at home against newly promoted sides or bottom half sides.

Kenny just doesn't understand the importance of playing his best team, nor does he seem to understand that playing his flop signings ain't gonna save his job in the long run. And I won't even mention his inability/reluctance to change a game by switching formation and/or using the bench pre-75th minute.

Carrol, Downing and Henderson. Now that's some 70 million worth of crap. Roy was lambasted for splashing out the total sum of 4 million on Konchesky and Jovanovic while Kenny's regarded a great manager for a reason I struggle to understand. The world has indeed gone crazy.

It's not a knee-jerk reaction, it's an analysis based of watching his management for almost a calendar year. His appointent was merely based on emotional sentiment rather than footy merits.
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #398 on: December 07, 2011, 02:31:37 PM »
Ed, I'm not wallowing in negativity, I just call the shots as I see them.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Anyway, you're not alone
if this piece is anything to go by: (NOT for the faint-hearted or
easily offended!!)

http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/12/07/kenny-dalglish-has-bought-worse-than-rafa-benitez/

Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #399 on: December 07, 2011, 02:51:15 PM »
Juan, I'm not saying we're not playing well, I'm simply saying that we shouldn't confuse that with what could've been. I am absolutetly convinced we would've score at least one in the opening 30 minutes with Kuijt and Maxi on the pitch. It won't say in the books Fulham 1 - 0 Liverpool (+ they scored many chances), it will say 1-0 and that's what counts. This was the 3rd time, at least, this season where Kenny's line-up sceamed it was evident even before KO we'd struggle to get anything. His poor judgement is costing us dearly mate and if you can't see that I can't do anything about it. I wasn't lucky to post prior to KO we'd drop points, it was written all over based on that line up. Now THAT is a genuine problem. No 4th under Kenny I say and it won't be down to us being in a transitional phase, gelling new players or any other unacceptable excuse.

Thats fair enough Martin, I take your point that you dont rate KD as a competent enough manager and you have problems with his decision making. Who knows Martin maybe your opinion is the correct one but I personally dont believe it is.

I think your are quantifying what Kenny has done for the club since arriving in January soley on the points we have collected. Under different circumstances I think that would be a fair way to judge but with the state LFC was in after the Hicks and Gillett era has meant Kennys job was far more than being just about bringing in a few new players to improve the team. Not only did Kenny transform where we were in the table when he took over he has gone on to lead the team up the table back to at least being in with a shout of European qualification. He has slashed the clubs wage bill and at the same time managed to rid the club of dead wood that has been lingering for years. He has brought in new players, some look more successful than others to date but thats always going to be the case when you bring in a host of new talent. If it turns out he has got it wrong with the likes of Carroll maybe he will need to rethink how he goes about his transfer business but I dont think its fair to condemn Henderson, Carroll and Downing yet. Admittedly the needing time to gel excuse cant be used much longer but players like Henderson and Carroll were bought as the future of the club for the next decade. Kenny probably expected more out of Carroll up to now but he never expected Henderson to fulfill his potential within the first 3 months of his Liverpool career. Ive seen enough of Henderson to think he may not be the finished article or the Premier Leagues top midfielder just yet but hes got huge potential. Downing on the other hand is a bit more of a mystery. Theres no way you can write his Liverpool career off yet, hes a better player than he is showing and I hope he can recapture that form that earned him a move.

To continue on what Kenny has done at the club he has TRANSFORMED our style of play. I intentionally use capitals because we have come an enormous distance from the long ball tactics deployed under Roy and even the sometimes rigid tactical systems we saw under Rafa. Liverpool have finally started playing football in the free flowing way it used and still should be played at the club. So all in all I think Kenny has crammed an awful lot of work in his first 11 months as manager. Im excited not only by the progress so far but also by the thoughts of where the club and team is going. If we keep adding a bit of quality to the squad each year we will be challenging the likes of United and City in the not so distant future. Our home form has been disappointing, not necessarily the performances but our inability to kill games when we are dominating. Thats something Im sure Kenny is trying to address, maybe it will come in the form of signing another striker to play with Suarez, maybe it will come from the training ground but from what Ive seen so far of Kenny and the management team Ive no doubt it will come. My appreciation of KD's work doesnt stem from romantic memories of eras of gone by but by the football and work ive seen to date. Right now I am more than willing to look past the number of points on the board because I know this team is a work in progress and I genuinely believe from what Im seeing that its only a matter of time before we are back challenging for the PL under Kenny Dalglish.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #400 on: December 07, 2011, 06:07:53 PM »
It's not a knee-jerk reaction, it's an analysis based of watching his management for almost a calendar year. His appointent was merely based on emotional sentiment rather than footy merits.

these have been, for me, the most frustratingly depressing of times.

after seeing the first two or three games of the season, I said we were top 8 material......at best, top 6.  And that is the way it is playing out.

The lack of tactical acumen reminds me of the Souness era.

Amazing to think that my three all-time favourite reds - Kenny, Graeme and Kevin - never really understood all the elements of the game and what makes teams tick. 

The key to building a top team is balance.    The two best managers we ever had, when it came to building and achieving good balance, was Sir Bob and Rafa.   

Kenny, Graeme and Kevin try their best, but sadly fall way short of dugout greatness.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 06:10:10 PM by the dude abides »
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Offline barticus

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #401 on: December 07, 2011, 08:26:39 PM »
ASI...that table is truly horrifying...for blackburn to have scored more than us...is just....wow...
couldn't give a toss about clean sheets...
we need to sort our attack out....the main problem is that kuyt and maxi are not being played enough and carroll is being played...sorry but he was a panic buy to placate the fans...
the free flowing football between feb-april was when we had kuyt, maxi and meireles playing in a flowing midfield...
now that downing and henderson have replaced them...we are not as good...
whatever happened to the anfield way that you get introduced into the way we play?..and not thrown in...
adam is doing a fairly good job at replacing gerrard and meireles...
in defense we are stronger with enrique....and skrtel and agger....but kelly should be playing more...

one of the main problems is we're not playing our strongest side due to us introducing downing, carroll, henderson etc...
we ALWAYS play our strongest side against the big sides and we get good results...
but as soon as we face the 'lesser' sides we weaken and due to bad luck/divine intervention/not being able to hit a barn door, we have problems...resulting in us scraping by against lesser sides...
we should also go back to what rafa used to do....we're at fulham...play it around but let the home side come at us....why put ourselves under pressure for wanting a result...the home crowd of our opposition want their team to attack...and we wait and counter...

and all this talk of great goalkeepers...purleeeezzee....if we stopped shooting at them it would do wonders for our strike rate....we need a david villa...a goal scorer...to unnerve the shine-a-light out of the goalkeeper and make him doubt his every move...

juan....we have changed our way of play....agreed...but we can be too open...with more limited resources for the last half of the season we seemed to be far more flowing...
also i agree completely that there has been a great change since the dark days of hicks and gillette...
but criticism is not necessarily negative...because there is a certain amount of dissapointment with what martinmarx, me and dude occasionaly say...the amount kenny has spent in comparison with rafa's spending speaks volumes...i notice that we're still relying on rafa's old stalwarts to get us goals...

dude....good to see you back...agreed with the sentiment...kenny has to go on a steep learning curve or...
we have to pray to mammon/odin/zeus that rafa doesn't join psg...cos with their money he'll have the backing and never want to leave...if we wait to see how it goes until the end of the season...and there are still problems...then with rafa still being free in the summer...then decisions will have to be made...
after all with rafa and for all of his critics...at the very least he got us to the champions league...and i for one....miss that....


Offline barticus

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #402 on: December 07, 2011, 08:35:27 PM »
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Anyway, you're not alone
if this piece is anything to go by: (NOT for the faint-hearted or
easily offended!!)

http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/12/07/kenny-dalglish-has-bought-worse-than-rafa-benitez/

Thanks Ed....a work of true unmitigated brilliance!

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #403 on: December 07, 2011, 09:53:32 PM »
We're not in Europe. On average he's getting 7 days rest between every game for God's sake. Plus he's one of our mist physically fit and least injury prone players. Wrap it in whatever form or shape you like ASI - the table doesn't lie. We're not good enough under Kenny and there's little to suggest that fact wil change any time soon.

I'm not saying I agreed with the decision to not play him. Just trying to understand what might be the situation with him.

You say we're not good enough but how come we're undefeated against City and Utd and beat Arsenal and Chelsea (twice) away? You're being very selective with your criticism and not balancing it against good results.

I've read a lot of criticism about our new signings tonight. Well try this on for size. I've just watched Smalling commit the most appalling defensive error to allow Basel to score a second and relegate Manure to the Europa. People are people. They make mistakes. The person who hasn't made one hasn't done anything. It's how you react in your next challenge that determines your character.

All that's missing from the team is a few more goals going in. Imagine if we were scoring freely but were letting them in like a sieve. Didn't Shankly always say you build a good team from the back? Well we have a pretty solid back pair in Skrtel and Agger and Enrique is doing a great job at LB. Johnson is the weakest aspect but he's good going forward. Midfield is okay. All we're lacking is someone to knock in all the chances we create.

And Carroll has scored more recently in the league than Rooney!! Football! Bloody 'ell!  :o
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #404 on: December 07, 2011, 10:31:03 PM »
You say we're not good enough but how come we're undefeated against City and Utd and beat Arsenal and Chelsea (twice) away? You're being very selective with your criticism and not balancing it against good results.

What's the point in beating Arsenal away just to field a weak side away and lose to Stoke? If producing results against the top sides were all that matter then the PL would consist of 6 or 7 teams. Thing is that it consist of 20 and it really doesn't matter how good your results are against the top sides if those results aren't matched by the results against the less good sides. It was written all over we'd get good results against City and Chelsea after drawing at HOME against NORWICH AND SWANSEA.

It's this inconsisency that's plagued the club for a decade we need to get rid of. Best way of ensuring that goal is to consistently play our best side. Kenny doesn't realise this hence we'll never reach top 4 under him. He may win us the ocassional mickey mouse cup to keep the nostalgic and emotional momentum but it won't alter the fact he ain't good enough to take this club to the next level. Again, the table doesn't lie!
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.