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Author Topic: Season 2011 - 2012  (Read 283388 times)

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #420 on: December 09, 2011, 05:17:44 PM »
Well said Juan. People seems to expect instant success which surprises me with some on this forum. I agree there has been a complete transformation in our playing style and the players themselves go to training each day with a smile on their face. I'm sorry but that never happened with Roy and probably Rafa lovely bloke though he is.

We may not be knocking them in but at least we are creating the opportunity to score. Compare than with the situation a year or two ago when things were really dire. 0-0 at relegated Hull on the last day of the 2009/10 season anyone? Here's the team for that game:- Reina, Mascherano, Carragher, Kyrgiakos, Agger, Lucas, Gerrard, Babel (Robinson 86), El Zhar (Ngog 61), Aquilani (Pacheco 72), Kuyt.

I've read several journalists reports recently and none have said LFC are going backwards. Mark Lawrenson's predictions incuding our game tomorrow had this to say...

I'm normally one of Liverpool's most severe critics but I thought they were unlucky in losing at Fulham on Monday. The Jay Spearing tackle [for which he was sent off] would not even have got a yellow five years ago - it was just a good, strong tackle for me - and if he doesn't get sent off, Liverpool don't lose in my opinion. But such is life, and Liverpool have to pick themselves up.

This weekend QPR are in town and Neil Warnock's boys have enjoyed a lot more success on the road than at home this season.

The thing with Liverpool, though, is that I think they're about to beat someone quite heavily at home. They have created loads of chances, they've endured draws against the likes of Manchester United, Manchester City and Swansea at home when perhaps they deserved more, and I just think someone's going to get rolled over.

That could be this weekend.


Welcome back Dude. I'm so pleased you're not dead!  ;D
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 05:18:50 PM by Ageing Stick Insect »
Cheers,
Ray



Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #421 on: December 09, 2011, 06:28:43 PM »
Agreed ASI, its a terrible way to look at things and not an attitude that relates to the way LFC have gone about their business over time.

For me that kind of attitude is so far removed from the Liverpool Way.

I've been following Liverpool for nearly 40 years, and I am perplexed Juan, that you consider the present regime as conducting business in the Liverpool Way.
  • the Liverpool way was all about brutal footballing honesty (the fans never got to see a player who had lost a yard of pace - he was gone one summer without any fanfare).
  • the Liverpool Way was never about the creation or acceptance of egos or big stars (Bob Paisley was VERY big on this aspect, often refusing to talk about individual performances).
  • the Liverpool Way was about closing down, and lots of hard work, which no-one was immune to
  • the Liverpool Way was about keeping possession.
  • the Liverpool Way was about being comfortable in possession, dribbling out of defence
  • the Liverpool Way was never about moronic big hoofs from defence to attack
  • the Liverpool Way was about passing the ball to the person who was in a better position
  • the Liverpool Way was about conducting our business in private
  • the Liverpool Way was never about endless press conferences, nor endless regular gut-churning positive PR spin from players.
  • the Liverpool Way was about bringing in personnel that was better than what we already had at the club
  • the Liverpool Way was about having a chief scout, like  the awesome Geoff Twentyman, it was never about having a Director of Football
  • the Liverpool Way was never about throwing vast chunks of money away in the transfer market  (that was always Man Utd's style)
  • the Liverpool Way was about humility, it was about passion.
  • the Liverpool Way was never about orange boots, nor ridiculous haircuts.
  • the Liverpool Way was never about pretending to smoke lines of cocaine, or showing your as.s in mocking another player's sexuality.
If I took more time, I could list a lot more aspects of the Liverpool Way.
In truth, the Liverpool Way (or much of it) is long since gone. 

What we are witnessing these past 18 months, is Kenny's Way.  Let's not confuse it with the old Liverpool Way. 
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #422 on: December 09, 2011, 06:43:56 PM »
Well said Juan. People seems to expect instant success which surprises me with some on this forum. I agree there has been a complete transformation in our playing style and the players themselves go to training each day with a smile on their face. I'm sorry but that never happened with Roy and probably Rafa lovely bloke though he is.

We may not be knocking them in but at least we are creating the opportunity to score. Compare than with the situation a year or two ago when things were really dire. 0-0 at relegated Hull on the last day of the 2009/10 season anyone? Here's the team for that game:- Reina, Mascherano, Carragher, Kyrgiakos, Agger, Lucas, Gerrard, Babel (Robinson 86), El Zhar (Ngog 61), Aquilani (Pacheco 72), Kuyt.

I've read several journalists reports recently and none have said LFC are going backwards. Mark Lawrenson's predictions incuding our game tomorrow had this to say...

I'm normally one of Liverpool's most severe critics but I thought they were unlucky in losing at Fulham on Monday. The Jay Spearing tackle [for which he was sent off] would not even have got a yellow five years ago - it was just a good, strong tackle for me - and if he doesn't get sent off, Liverpool don't lose in my opinion. But such is life, and Liverpool have to pick themselves up.

This weekend QPR are in town and Neil Warnock's boys have enjoyed a lot more success on the road than at home this season.

The thing with Liverpool, though, is that I think they're about to beat someone quite heavily at home. They have created loads of chances, they've endured draws against the likes of Manchester United, Manchester City and Swansea at home when perhaps they deserved more, and I just think someone's going to get rolled over.

That could be this weekend.


Welcome back Dude. I'm so pleased you're not dead!  ;D

Thanks for the welcome back, Ray.  I ain't dead, or at least not been informed if so.  Mind you, I have been rather airy on my feet (but I blame the beer).

You and Juan are great guys (gotta come over some time and have beers here and vacation).  But I am perplexed as to your analysis of the events at Anfield.

Don't you realise that no player, nor ex employee of the club will rock the Anfield boat?    You got a tiny glimpse of exasperated honesty, when Agger said that some players cared more than others, and that we were running around like headless chickens.    Ring a bell?  I had been saying exactly the same thing (headless chickens).

You think our playing style has been transformed.  You are spot on.  We are now totally disorganised.  Kenny's buys have been pretty poor fare.  He seems to favour non-technical players.  That is most certainly NOT the Liverpool Way.  If we are going to hoof long balls to Carroll, then I suggest Kenny goes and manages Widnes or St Helens.

You think all is well because the lads now come into training with a smile on their faces.  I don't think Sir Bob or Sir Alex would operate under such criteria.

And if you have to start quoting Mark Lawrenson, then your case is well and truly lost.     :D

And we sacked Rafa for this. 
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #423 on: December 09, 2011, 07:00:23 PM »
Thanks for the welcome back, Ray.  I ain't dead, or at least not been informed if so.  Mind you, I have been rather airy on my feet (but I blame the beer).
Aha! Finally, you've spotted my name. I was beginning to despair anyone would ever use it.

Quote
You and Juan are great guys (gotta come over some time and have beers here and vacation).  But I am perplexed as to your analysis of the events at Anfield.
Love to meet all who visit here. One day eh?

Quote
Don't you realise that no player, nor ex employee of the club will rock the Anfield boat?    You got a tiny glimpse of exasperated honesty, when Agger said that some players cared more than others, and that we were running around like headless chickens.    Ring a bell?  I had been saying exactly the same thing (headless chickens).
Yes I remember the Agger quote but not which game it was after. Spurs?

But you surely cannot have forgotten how many ex-players were openly critical of the war going on when H&G were in charge? Rush was very vocal as was Molby and Aldridge. Ian St John was also openly critical but no-one has said anything critical this season because our real enemy has been the woodwork and occasional ref. I can only recall the Spurs and Norwich games as being truly bad. Sunderland doesn't count as it was the first of the season.

Quote
You think our playing style has been transformed.  You are spot on.  We are now totally disorganised.  Kenny's buys have been pretty poor fare.  He seems to favour non-technical players.  That is most certainly NOT the Liverpool Way.  If we are going to hoof long balls to Carroll, then I suggest Kenny goes and manages Widnes or St Helens.
Come on Dude, you're not being fair. How can we been so disorganised yet have one of the best defensive records in the league. If you were talking about Utd, Arsenal or Chelsea I could understand it as they have all been hammered despite recent improvements.

And remember how our comeback in March 2009 against Manure started. A hoofed ball by Skrtel upfield towards Torres. Sometimes that kind of 'pass' can be highly effective.

Quote
You think all is well because the lads now come into training with a smile on their faces.  I don't think Sir Bob or Sir Alex would operate under such criteria.
I think you'll get far more out of a happy team than one that isn't. Have you ever worked in an office? Wherever you work the analogy works.

Quote
And if you have to start quoting Mark Lawrenson, then your case is well and truly lost.     :D
LOL! Have a read of this blog. Things aren't as bad as you think - honest!
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #424 on: December 09, 2011, 07:01:54 PM »
Welcome back Dude. I'm so pleased you're not dead!  ;D

Lol ASI for me that line alone gives you my vote for comment of the year. Funny stuff, although that said for a week or two there Dude the thought also crossed my mind.

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #425 on: December 09, 2011, 07:13:35 PM »
Lol ASI for me that line alone gives you my vote for comment of the year. Funny stuff, although that said for a week or two there Dude the thought also crossed my mind.
Thanks Juan but I can't take the credit for that line. It came from way back when we produced some good comedy but I don't remember which one. There was a line in Fawlty Towers when Basil was asked why he was so happy by one of the elderly ladies. "One of the guests has died"!! Classic!  :D

I also shared your concern about Dude. He'd either gone off in a huff; the end of season report was the undoing of him or he'd lost an arm-wrestle with the Grim Reaper!  ;D
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #426 on: December 09, 2011, 08:11:07 PM »
I've been following Liverpool for nearly 40 years, and I am perplexed Juan, that you consider the present regime as conducting business in the Liverpool Way.
  • the Liverpool way was all about brutal footballing honesty (the fans never got to see a player who had lost a yard of pace - he was gone one summer without any fanfare).
  • the Liverpool Way was never about the creation or acceptance of egos or big stars (Bob Paisley was VERY big on this aspect, often refusing to talk about individual performances).
  • the Liverpool Way was about closing down, and lots of hard work, which no-one was immune to
  • the Liverpool Way was about keeping possession.
  • the Liverpool Way was about being comfortable in possession, dribbling out of defence
  • the Liverpool Way was never about moronic big hoofs from defence to attack
  • the Liverpool Way was about passing the ball to the person who was in a better position
  • the Liverpool Way was about conducting our business in private
  • the Liverpool Way was never about endless press conferences, nor endless regular gut-churning positive PR spin from players.
  • the Liverpool Way was about bringing in personnel that was better than what we already had at the club
  • the Liverpool Way was about having a chief scout, like  the awesome Geoff Twentyman, it was never about having a Director of Football
  • the Liverpool Way was never about throwing vast chunks of money away in the transfer market  (that was always Man Utd's style)
  • the Liverpool Way was about humility, it was about passion.
  • the Liverpool Way was never about orange boots, nor ridiculous haircuts.
  • the Liverpool Way was never about pretending to smoke lines of cocaine, or showing your as.s in mocking another player's sexuality.
If I took more time, I could list a lot more aspects of the Liverpool Way.
In truth, the Liverpool Way (or much of it) is long since gone. 

What we are witnessing these past 18 months, is Kenny's Way.  Let's not confuse it with the old Liverpool Way.

Dude some of your recollections of the Liverpool Way are very romantic to say the least. If you believe that the great Liverpool teams never misplayed a pass, never won matches ugly, never spent large sums at the time in the transfer market you are very much mistaken.

I agree that over the years just like the Boot Room the Liverpool way waned especially when the Premier League became such big business. However I also believe that Kenny has managed to revive many of those traditions that you yourself have listed above. He himself has spoken about going about our business in private. The odd occasion he has felt the need to defend a player or comment on a situation but otherwise has reverted to dealing with matters behind closed doors. Dalglish has shown humility, his team have displayed passion. Dropping points or losing a game doesnt mean the team lacks passion and to be honest thats one of the aspects where I think the players should be commended. There are alot of the qualities youve listed above that I can relate to the current team.

I dont understand the disdain for Dalglish. You constantly compare him unfavorably to Benitez but again you seem to forget that Rafa too had his faults, Rafa made mistakes, his weakened team at Reading, Aquilani etc. I am a huge Rafa fan but dont think the current regime would ever have him back. 

You can admit we are a work in progress yet you seem to want the finished article now.  Patience from the fans was always something this club was renowned for. Admittedly that was something Roy didnt get but I think most people believed he was the wrong man at the wrong time for the wrong club. If Dalglish isnt afforded the patience he deserves we could well go down the same route as Newcastle or Chelsea and change our manager every year. Fortunately I think our owners give Kenny more credit than hes afforded from some fans.

Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #427 on: December 09, 2011, 08:28:56 PM »
I also shared your concern about Dude. He'd either gone off in a huff; the end of season report was the undoing of him or he'd lost an arm-wrestle with the Grim Reaper!  ;D

Dude as Ray has mentioned above we're still waiting on that end of season report. Maybe we should make it bi-annual altogether  ;)?

Considering the contents would undoubtedly be of a sensitive / controversial  nature we would most likely have to put a party together to collect it at yours. And sure it would be just rude not to stay for that beer or ten!

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #428 on: December 09, 2011, 08:37:20 PM »
I'm speechless! There are 72 points up for grabs, we're 5 points off 4th and you have written off the rest of the season!  :o Maybe it's a Scandinavian thing. ::) I remain positive we can still achieve 4th or higher.

5 points off 4th is probably the closest we'll get between now and the end of the season. When I say the season's over (based on watching us for 30 + years) you say I'm no Liverpool fan, when it turns out I was right a few months later you slate me for being right. I don't remember the Liverpool fan of yesteryear basing his or her analysis on wishful thinking and if's and but's analysis á la Tomkins, but rather on a knowledgeable, critical and logical out look. Today proof of progress is slotting in below par academy players, playing well despite drawing at home to new comers, "at least we're creating chances". The fan of yesteryear would never accept this pathetic inconsistency that plagues us, the fan of yesteryear would never accept that expensive, yet worthless, signings are being played at the expense of better and more experienced players.

You harp on about the 81 season. I actually remember it pretty well. I remember the feeling at christmas we could win the remaining games. Today people's expectations would burst through the roof if we won 4 on the trot. 2 times over the last decade we've managed to string 6 straight wins or more together. 2 TIMES IN 10 YEARS!!!!!. And you just think it's about us going on a good run. What are you basing that on really? Especially when our manager doesn't have a clue as to what's his best team.

It may be a Scandinavian thingy to view things this way but that doesn't make it less realistic and sober. 6th is the very best we can ever hope for this season and it breaks my ferkin heart to say it.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 08:42:20 PM by Martinmarx »
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #429 on: December 09, 2011, 10:09:08 PM »
Martin,

You and I are diametrically opposed on our views of Liverpool FC. Because of that reason I don't feel it's worthwhile to continue this debate with you because you view everything as half-empty whereas I prefer to take a more positive attitude even if it sometimes means I'm more disappointed than you because I often expect us to win a game.

You seem to think the modern fan is a pale imitation of the one from 30 years ago. Back then there was no radio phone-in, no message boards, no rolling Sky Sports news and very little live football. In short, unless you actually went to the game you couldn't express a meaningful opinion on how well or not the team performed.

I did go to Anfield in the early 80s and I can assure you I saw plenty of poor football played inbetween some excellent games. I remember us losing to Leicester, drawing with newly promoted Swansea and more often than not, losing to Manure. We didn't roll everyone over who came to Anfield. We were more consistent than now because we used to win titles but there were years when we didn't.

There is a lot of inconsistency amongst the top teams this season. City are the only team that have been consistently good and were scoring for fun until they came to Anfield. If we were that poor and disorganised they would have turned us over. They didn't because the team is better than a lot of people give it credit for.

I've seen your 'best 11' and I have to say it amazes me that you consider Coates good enough to throw into a league game when his understanding of English is very limited and he still isn't used to the pace of the game.

Look at how damaging poor communication is with Manure's 'keeper and his defence. That is one argument you cannot level at LFC. We'll see how things pan out but I expect us to finish higher than 6th.
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #430 on: December 10, 2011, 02:29:53 AM »
LOL, The Liverpool Way, we should have copyrighted it

Fergie stole the entire thing years ago!

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #431 on: December 10, 2011, 01:44:52 PM »
LOL, The Liverpool Way, we should have copyrighted it

Fergie stole the entire thing years ago!

exactly, Ed.    Indeed, I was gonna add that to my post above.

Sadly, many reds fans are still taken in by the mantra.  i.e. if Kenny says it's the Liverpool Way, then it must be the Liverpool Way.   ::)

It's ridiculous.  Fergie stole our template decades ago.  I wish some fans had a brain in their heads.   

For one thing, this whole DECENCY thing was NEVER part of the Liverpool Way - it instead was something that evolved from the David Moores era.   It came from his personality/business methods.

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #432 on: December 10, 2011, 02:25:00 PM »
I agree that over the years just like the Boot Room the Liverpool way waned especially when the Premier League became such big business. However I also believe that Kenny has managed to revive many of those traditions that you yourself have listed above. He himself has spoken about going about our business in private. The odd occasion he has felt the need to defend a player or comment on a situation but otherwise has reverted to dealing with matters behind closed doors. Dalglish has shown humility 

humility is another area where Kenny only talks the talk.  He reminds me of David O'Leary who never tired of telling others how humble and sincere he was (what a laugh).

but let's get back to Kenny.  Kenny and Comolli are never done slapping each other on the back, and telling us how great each other is.  Everybody seems to think everyone else is great, wonderful, awesome....instead of keeping their mouths shut and getting on with their job.

If I had scouted and brought in the likes of Carroll, I sure as hell would keep my head down.

90 million quid spent, and not one of the buys is a world beater.  Carroll is apparently the pick of this generation of new english talent.    And think about it, what faith can one have in all their other many purchases of young talent (lads we have yet to see), when their 35 million quid marquee signing is so dire. 

The club has gone backwards, tactically..... and has failed to push on, talent wise.  I still think a top manager could deploy our assets much better.  I think we have a lot of talent on the pitch and in the dugout.  The lack of talent is with Kenny and Comolli.

but I feel like saying those immortal Bill Shankly words, when being surrounded by gesticulating Juano and Rayo, tells his translator: "Just tell them I completely disagree with everything they say!"          ;D

Kenny's reign (and limited team building and tactical ability) is exactly as I had predicted (and many others predicted too).   You are correct, we don't want to be sacking our boss every year or two.  That's why we need to be appointing the right one from the get-go.  Hell, we wouldn't be in this position if some people had not slagged Rafa (and got him sacked).  Unforgivable from Mr and Mrs Liverpool and their big mate Bascoombe in the media. 

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #433 on: December 10, 2011, 02:48:57 PM »
exactly, Ed.    Indeed, I was gonna add that to my post above.

Sadly, many reds fans are still taken in by the mantra.  i.e. if Kenny says it's the Liverpool Way, then it must be the Liverpool Way.   ::)

It's ridiculous.  Fergie stole our template decades ago.  I wish some fans had a brain in their heads.   

For one thing, this whole DECENCY thing was NEVER part of the Liverpool Way - it instead was something that evolved from the David Moores era.   It came from his personality/business methods.

I've been trying to say this or at least something to this effect for a long time. Well said, dude. Again I agree with every word you say. It's not about a half glass perspective an'all that crap, it's calling it as it is.

Anyway, at least Kenny picked a good starting line up meaning we'll probably win this 3-1 or 4-1.
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #434 on: December 10, 2011, 03:23:19 PM »
I'd be happy if we win by a couple of goals, Martin.

But I would not be surprised if we make a pig's bottom of it.


In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.