Season 2011 - 2012

[Martinmarx]

This team is a work in progress and clearly Kenny is having difficulty in figuring out how to overcome teams at Anfield. That said fans that cant differentiate between the performances under Kennys Liverpool and the performances under Roys clearly dont watch very many of the games closely because they are worlds apart.

Awrite Juant, how long then are we gonna say this until it's OK to actually demand we beat newly promoted teams and teams in the relegation zone at home after having splashed out some 110 million? How long? Because these Tomkinsesque arguments aint promoting intellectual debate, really. Can we on the one hand call ourselves a great club, a top club, while, at the same time game after game drop points against "lesser" opposition? Me thinks not. Beating Blackburn at home shouldn't depend on the team being a work in progress or not. Any levelminded fan can see that. Any levelminded fan can see that our manager doesn't know his best XI and lack the tactical or organisational skills to change a game. THAT in combination with a terrible transfer strategy spell why we'll miss out on 4th.

[Juan]

Awrite Juant, how long then are we gonna say this until it's OK to actually demand we beat newly promoted teams and teams in the relegation zone at home after having splashed out some 110 million? How long? Because these Tomkinsesque arguments aint promoting intellectual debate, really. Can we on the one hand call ourselves a great club, a top club, while, at the same time game after game drop points against "lesser" opposition? Me thinks not. Beating Blackburn at home shouldn't depend on the team being a work in progress or not. Any levelminded fan can see that. Any levelminded fan can see that our manager doesn't know his best XI and lack the tactical or organisational skills to change a game. THAT in combination with a terrible transfer strategy spell why we'll miss out on 4th.

I agree we should be beating teams like Blackburn, Norwich, Swansea home and away in the league but at the moment for a number of reasons we just cant stick the ball in the net. Thats not to say though that most of our performances havent deserved comfortable wins because they have. Individually certain players havent been at the races but collectively the footballs been pretty good in almost every match. Can you even admit that much?

You clearly want to see the back of Kenny now. But what happens if whatever manager you want to replace Kenny doesnt do any better, what happens if the football gets worse and we start to drop in the table? How long do you give the new man? How long do you continue that cycle of replacing the manager before you finally decide that we are going to have to give a manager time?

80 percent of what Im seeing at the moment on the pitch looks good although your negativity Martin makes me wonder whether you even watch. We play nice free flowing football, we are forming a solid defence, we are creating chances and dominating teams but we are just lacking the final killer touch. Id rather see us try to find that missing piece but I get the impression with you that no matter whose in charge if they are not rooted in the top 4 places within 6 months you will be calling for change again and again. Im glad John Henry has a long term vision for the club that wont change on a game by game basis.

[Martinmarx]

I agree we should be beating teams like Blackburn, Norwich, Swansea home and away in the league but at the moment for a number of reasons we just cant stick the ball in the net. Thats not to say though that most of our performances havent deserved comfortable wins because they have. Individually certain players havent been at the races but collectively the footballs been pretty good in almost every match. Can you even admit that much?

You clearly want to see the back of Kenny now. But what happens if whatever manager you want to replace Kenny doesnt do any better, what happens if the football gets worse and we start to drop in the table? How long do you give the new man? How long do you continue that cycle of replacing the manager before you finally decide that we are going to have to give a manager time?

80 percent of what Im seeing at the moment on the pitch looks good although your negativity Martin makes me wonder whether you even watch. We play nice free flowing football, we are forming a solid defence, we are creating chances and dominating teams but we are just lacking the final killer touch. Id rather see us try to find that missing piece but I get the impression with you that no matter whose in charge if they are not rooted in the top 4 places within 6 months you will be calling for change again and again. Im glad John Henry has a long term vision for the club that wont change on a game by game basis.

Belittling and simplyfying your opponents arguments doesn't suit you well, Juan. You can do better than that and you probably know it.

I never said we don't play good footy and I honestly don't understand what that has to do with anything? I really don't.  Also, we were dire yesterday and against Wigan post the opening 25.

You ask what happen if a new manager comes in. Shouldn't the question be, rather, what happens if we keep the current manager? No LFC manager has never, not even close, have such amount of money to spend inside a calender year so you'd expect more than draw after draw after draw after draw against bottom and newly promote sides at home. Look at first half yesterday or last 20 against Wigan, no urgency, no initiative, no will, no pride, nothing to suggest Kenny can get the lads to grind out a resut for him.

Why? Simply because the player are fed up with his poor team selection. I know I would be. Maybe his reluctance to change games until it's too late makes it hard for the players to do somthing out of the ordinary. Fickin Hend knows full well he can stroll around the park for 90 minutes contributing feck all resting in the fact he'll start the next game too at the expense of much better and more experienced players.

The table doesn't lie, we're no better than this. I'm absolutetly confident Ancelotti or Mourinho would have a much better chance of making us a top 4 side again. With Kenny there's no futubre, neither on the pitch or in financial books.

[Juan]

Belittling and simplyfying your opponents arguments doesn't suit you well, Juan. You can do better than that and you probably know it.

I never said we don't play good footy and I honestly don't understand what that has to do with anything? I really don't.  Also, we were dire yesterday and against Wigan post the opening 25.

You ask what happen if a new manager comes in. Shouldn't the question be, rather, what happens if we keep the current manager? No LFC manager has never, not even close, have such amount of money to spend inside a calender year so you'd expect more than draw after draw after draw after draw against bottom and newly promote sides at home. Look at first half yesterday or last 20 against Wigan, no urgency, no initiative, no will, no pride, nothing to suggest Kenny can get the lads to grind out a resut for him.

Why? Simply because the player are fed up with his poor team selection. I know I would be. Maybe his reluctance to change games until it's too late makes it hard for the players to do somthing out of the ordinary. Fickin Hend knows full well he can stroll around the park for 90 minutes contributing feck all resting in the fact he'll start the next game too at the expense of much better and more experienced players.

The table doesn't lie, we're no better than this. I'm absolutetly confident Ancelotti or Mourinho would have a much better chance of making us a top 4 side again. With Kenny there's no futubre, neither on the pitch or in financial books.

Martin apologies if you feel I have tried to belittle your argument, thats not my intention. I just find it hard to understand your negativity towards the team. I can understand frustration at results like yesterday and I can understand questioning Kennys decision making but Im not sure how we have such differing views on the game. I admit we were poor in and around the box and it has to be more than a lack of luck involved but to say there was "no urgency, no will, no pride" for me is just an inaccurate view on things. Right from kick off in the second half we chased, harried, attacked in numbers but just just didnt create enough quality in the final third. At one point i even commented on how Suarez was running after the balls that had gone dead in order to get the game resumed as quickly as possible. I think we had a problem with decision making in and around the box. We shoot when we would be better passing and vice versa and we often tend to pick the wrong pass. That said we still had chances. Even in the last few seconds their keeper made a super save from Carroll and Agger had his effort cleared off the line. They are the slim margins between 1 and 3 points and at the moment we cant convert what we are creating.

I agree the table doesnt lie but where you see 6th place I see us being 3 points off 4th place, if Arsenal win potentially 4 off.

As for having no future under Kenny I think its too early to make that call. I agree his big money signings like Carroll, Downing and Henderson arent repaying the managers faith but Suarez, Adam, Enrique and Bellamy all look like very worthy additions. You can argue that Suarez isnt a Kenny signing but it happened during his reign so you have to give give him the benefit.

Im not sure why your worried about the financial side of things under Kenny. Aside from Ian Ayre doing fantastic work on the commercial side of things, Kennys summer clearout reduced the annual wage bill by millions. He also managed to bring in transfer fees for so many players that had no future at this club but who were still picking up big wages. In that effect he has managed to clean up some of the shoddy finances of regimes gone by in a very short period of time. Anyway I assume Comolli is the man who handles the transfer fee side of things, Kenny picks who he wants and Comolli sees how much he can buy them for.

I accept Carroll looks like crazy transfer business now but as Ed mentioned in a previous post to swap Carroll and Suarez for Torres means we came out of that transfer window better than we went into it.

I dont believe that Kennys without his faults. I think he still needs to prove himself with Comolli in the transfer market, I believe he still needs to show us that he can resolve our goal scoring issues and that hes capable of building a team that can be consistent home and away. The only way he can prove the above is if hes given the necessary time.

[Ed]

Frustrating alright, clearly there is a solid foundation there,
a platform to build on and as Juan said it's the final third where
the problems are.

Still we saw yesterday, the answer for home games against
crap opposition i.e. Stevie G. Every time he got on the ball he
did something decisive and created an attacking chance. Had
he been there for 90, he also has the quality to step up and stick a
few. Still, i thought it was a mature performance from him, the way
he was involving all the other players in the moves (or, lol, maybe he's
just not 100%).

Sad fact is though, we labour against these weak opponents,
giving them way too much respect and then United come along
within a week and beat the same team 5-0 (Fulham, Wigan and
I'd bet my house, they'll do the same to Blackburn).

Anyway, Kenny's the gaffer, so it's up to him to find the solution in
the new year that secures us 4th. Simple as that really.

A bit of belief is what's required 'cos hope will get us nowhere but 6th.

[Tes]

Whatever view any of us hold as to whether Dalglish should have been appointed permanently or not, I think most of us would agree that to change manager mid-season would not be the most sensible thing to do.
Having had such a large turnover of players in the Summer a season of stability, especially after the last few years, has to be paramount.

I think the board certainly needs a 'football' appointment to it as that is the most glaring omission at the moment.

I think we need to give 'everything' a season and then review it then. The addition of a striker in January, always supposing it's the correct one, should go some way to solving the goal scoring problem, and the addition of cover for Lucas to tighten things up further defensively wouldn't be a bad thing.

Players like Downing, who certainly has been disappointing overall, need to be worked with, as he in particular has shown more at previous clubs than he has done so far with us. He needs to work more on his composure and decision making when faced with a goal scoring opportunity.

Yes, it's going to be tough to make fourth (any higher is just wishful thinking), and we need to start matching or bettering Arsenal and Chelsea's results consistantly, between now and the end of the season. Lucky for us, both are still in the CL, and that could hopefully prove a distraction if they can both make it through the first knockout round. Spurs are going to need to collapse if they're to be pulled back into the race.

It's frustrating when you think a single goal would have been the difference maker in so many games and could have had us sitting nicely ahead of Arsenal and Chelsea and putting Spurs under huge pressure.

I think it would be unwise to think of a big clearout either now or in the Summer. The one thing Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea have over us is that their squads, and even more importantly their obvious first 11, have been together collectively longer than ours.

We need to hold our nerve until May and not let disappointments make us impatient and rash in what we are wanting.

I can't see the owners evening thinking about pulling any triggers until the end of the season, when everything will be viewed in it's entirety and within the context of individual events which have occurred throughout the whole season.

One thing is for certain though. Our next striker purchase needs to be better thought out than our last one, especially within the context of our style of play / or the direction in which we wih to develop our style of play.

[the dude abides]

who's gonna sack, Kenny?

that's the crux of the matter.

come the summer, will our owners see the writing on the wall, or will they be taken in with the *rebuilding* and *need for patience* and *five year plan* yarns.

remember, this season there can't be the excuse of European football disrupting our season.

Kenny should be leaving in the summer.  But who's gonna have the b.alls to tell him.

[Tes]

who's gonna sack, Kenny?

that's the crux of the matter.

come the summer, will our owners see the writing on the wall, or will they be taken in with the *rebuilding* and *need for patience* and *five year plan* yarns.

remember, this season there can't be the excuse of European football disrupting our season.

Kenny should be leaving in the summer.  But who's gonna have the b.alls to tell him.

Strangely, Dude, I don't have many fears on that. Whether Henry & Co know when to do it is one thing but I don't think they'd have a problem actually doing the deed. Thankfully, he's not David Moores.
Plus the fact that he's based in Boston always helps. This is where the lack of a 'football man' on the board is going to hold us back.
Who is the one with the knowlege to know when and then who to replace him with?
Arsenal wouldn't have known about someone like Wenger without the likes of Dein on the board.

Additionally, looking at the Suarez case, does anyone think Evra would have admitted anything to the press in his own country if the situation had been reversed? NO. Why? Because there's enough knowledge of the FA on the Manc board and they would have briefed him to 'keep it shut' whether he thought he was 'innocent' or not in his own mind. It may not have even got as far as the case being brought. An apology (whether meant or not) would have been issued and an indepth explaination of the uptight British institution's fear of colour would have been made. Our board/club should have known how to play the FA at it's own pompous, hypocritical little game. 

[the dude abides]

Strangely, Dude, I don't have many fears on that. Whether Henry & Co know when to do it is one thing but I don't think they'd have a problem actually doing the deed. Thankfully, he's not David Moores.
Plus the fact that he's based in Boston always helps. This is where the lack of a 'football man' on the board is going to hold us back.
Who is the one with the knowlege to know when and then who to replace him with?
Arsenal wouldn't have known about someone like Wenger without the likes of Dein on the board.

Additionally, looking at the Suarez case, does anyone think Evra would have admitted anything to the press in his own country if the situation had been reversed? NO. Why? Because there's enough knowledge of the FA on the Manc board and they would have briefed him to 'keep it shut' whether he thought he was 'innocent' or not in his own mind. It may not have even got as far as the case being brought. An apology (whether meant or not) would have been issued and an indepth explaination of the uptight British institution's fear of colour would have been made. Our board/club should have known how to play the FA at it's own pompous, hypocritical little game.

agreed, anyone with intelligence at Anfield, would have had a quiet word in Suarez's ear, and told him to keep his mouth shut.  With no other witnesses, you are home and dry.  Not that the word he used was racist.  But still, this whole debacle could have been avoided.  All Suarez had to be briefed, was to say "I have no specific recollection of the words used, but it definitely wasn't racist."

As for Kenny's position.  My view is that unless Kenny falls on his own sword, he will not be pushed in the summer.  I think our owners will fall back upon the patience excuse and "we're in this for the long-haul" etc. 

Though I wonder if they will be as keen to hand Kenny another 112 million quid next January.  Kenny's train may hit the buffers, when the yanks close their wallet.  Without massive money, Kenny has always been lost. 

[Tes]

Though I wonder if they will be as keen to hand Kenny another 112 million quid next January.  Kenny's train may hit the buffers, when the yanks close their wallet.  Without massive money, Kenny has always been lost.

That's a real worry but so could the flip side (like our transfers since Suarez, Bellamy and Enrique definately excepted, hopefully others can join that list).

[the dude abides]

That's a real worry but so could the flip side (like our transfers since Suarez, Bellamy and Enrique definately excepted, hopefully others can join that list).

yes, most of our best transfers have been frees.

I am actually not too concerned, beyond Carroll, about our transfer activity.  I think we have the makings of a decent side.  The problem is in the dugout.  Kenny is failing miserably at putting a balanced side together.  And as for tactics, the man is a rank amateur.

With Ancellotti, Benitez or O'Neill in charge, we would be at least plating as good football as Spurs.....and not far off the Manchester sides.

[Tes]

*Puts his Devil suit on and dons and advocat's wig.

From another forum:

To be honest is this not a PR disaster?

Kenny is a walking PR disaster. It was pretty much always the case, but he got away with it early in his management career because he was invariably winning.

The other person who comes out of this fairly poorly is the owner. There are two ways he could have contained this PR nightmare, either step in himself early and take the path of least resistance - dampen down the bad news with an apology, it was all a cultural misunderstanding thing - and hardly anyone would even be talking about it now. Meanwhile you quietly appeal the length of the ban and the FA shortens it because you have shown penitence for the crime and are sending out the right signal.

If you do not want to get involved in this personally then you make sure you put in place a senior management structure at the club to handle it for you. A structure that has a strong communications head and a manager with strict instructions that any actions or comments he makes on this subject have to be signed off by the PR guy.

Dalglish is doing what he is doing undoubtedly to try and create a siege mentality and keep his team close in spirit and deed. But what is good for one part of a vast organisation like Liverpool is not necessarily good for the rest of it. The club's image and reputation is taking a battering because there are no senior people there who seem to have the power or remit to argue their own corners in the face of the scattershot approach of Dalglish.

I cannot imagine any one person would have this amount of scope within their job definitions to cause this much trouble at any of Henry's other sporting entities, I struggle to imagine why he permits this to happen at Liverpool.

Too much that seems to have happened at the club over the past year has been rather knee jerk, whether some of the ridiculous, panicky transfer deals or this sort of pandering to the baser instincts of the more rabid elements of the support. Good owners need to stand aloof from populist gestures, Henry seems to be far too acquiescent in the poor decision making made by the people he is trusting to run the club. I do not know if this is a competence issue or a currying favour one, either way I am worried.

The owner doesn't have the first clue of what he is doing when it comes to football. NESV bought Liverpool because someone told them they could buy one of the most widely supported sports franchises in the world for £200 million. They jumped at it. The glazers were looking for over 10 times as much for man utd. £200 million was cheap. There was however a couple of reasons as to why this storied franchise was available so cheaply.

The problem is that they don't know anything at all about football. They didn't realise what a mess Benitez had made of the club, with the assistance of H&G. they didn't know how incredibly shed most of the players were when they took over.

They didn't realise how much fornicating money these players were on. They didn't realise how badly structured the squad was, they didn't realise how long their contracts were. They were only dimly aware of how bad the clubs underlying financial position was, and how costs were exploding as income fell.

They had some lovely little plans for a transfer guru to scour Europe for top players at fantastic prices, with a coach at the cutting edge of management, using the most modern of methods to weld the team into a winning machine.

However, NESV didn't realise that all of their plans were going to be fucked straight out the window, because King Kenny wanted the job, and let it be known to the world at large through his mates who were all in the media and saying what a great manager he would be.

NESV looked at their fans in near open revolt against their manager, and saw they were chanting for the return of a man who hadn't had any real involvement in football since he disgraced himself at Celtic and Newcastle, and they just buckled.

Out went any notion of young coaches with inventive tactics, out went clever purchases, in came insanely expensive players of unproven top level pedigree, but proven behavioural problems, at galactico prices. All rational economic planning went out the window as they "overspent to show the fans that they were prepared to spend big." before scouring the North East for unbelievably bad value.

NESV have little or no leverage over Dalglish. If they sacked him tomorrow they could never set foot in their own stadium again and would have to sell the club. KK can do whatever he wants, and unfortunately, it appears that he only seems to be interested in pissing and shitting all over his own reputation.

Whether it be buying terrible players, or wasting obscene amounts of money, or making an unbelievably awful mess of handling this Suarez case, or even buying the crazy uncontrollable cad in the first place.

Suarez, Carroll, Downing and Henderson are enormous catastrophic club-crushing blunders. any other football manager who had made the catalogue of horrendous errors that Dalglish has made over the last 12 months would have been not only fired, but sued for the damage he's done to NESV's economic interests.

But ultimately there is nothing that they can do about it, other than wait until he realises that his best managerial days were under Thatcher, and hope that he forks off back to the 19th hole with the MOTD pundits, to tell off-colour stories about the good old days.

NESV can then look at their falling income, escalating costs, rising losses, and try and rebuild again, in the knowledge that Liverpool have officially replaced nNewcastle as the most criminally mismanaged club in england. Pretty soon Liverpool fans are going to start every season hoping for a good run at a Europa league spot, and if one of the CL clubs wins the League cup, maybe we'll get it.

I know many will be very angry at what I have written but it's the truth and we all know it.


*Tucks can opener back into inside pocket and awaits what everyone has to say. 
 

[the dude abides]

there is some truth in that article, Tes.

Though half-way through he started to lose me - when he says:   "The problem is that the (new owners) don't know anything at all about football. They didn't realise what a mess Benitez had made of the club, with the assistance of H&G."

Sorry, but what fecking mess does that author reckon that Rafa left?  Qualifying for the CL every season, two CL finals, and ran Utd close one season for the title....despite having relative peanuts to spend.

Rafa's*crime* was that he finished 7th that final season.....his luck ran out I guess in trying to juggle limited funds.  And Mr and Mrs Liverpool, briefing their mate at the News of the Turds, turned on him. 

There have been reports that Rafa lost half the dressing room.  I have a fair idea who the key folks were in, in that septic festering half.  And I'd have shipped them out of the club pronto.  Well truth be known, I;d have shipped them a lot earlier.

Rafa's removal was a political coup.  His plotters waited their moment and then sprung.  Despicable individuals.  Nothing good could ever come of it.  It most certainly was not done in the interests of Liverpool Football club.

[Ed]

Suarez, Carroll, Downing and Henderson are enormous catastrophic club-crushing blunders.

C'mon, Tes, this type of opinion is just stupid. Sometimes in forums there's a tendency
for comment to go over and beyond what is recognisable as reality and that's a good
example of someone who appears to know nothing about Shankly, Paisley & LFC and
is just venting to hear the sound of their own voice (imo, the c**t probably supports
United.).

The relevant questions when it comes to Kenny are 1.) Can he get us 4th? 2.) can he get
us some domestic silverware? 3.) Can he deliver the title? 4.) Does he have what it takes to
battle wits tactically against the best in Europe.?

I think he can probably do the first 2, will have to wait 'til the end of the season before I
could judge number 3 and have my doubts about 4.

However, whatever, Kenny is from the old school, has lived and breathed the same air as
Paisley and is steeped in traditions of the club (not to mention the amount of trophies he
helped us win). So when some stupid ignorant f**k grossly disrespects him in such a manner
with wild accusations, I fall right in line behind Kenny and back him to the hilt. YNWA.

[Tes]

C'mon, Tes, this type of opinion is just stupid.

Ed, you've lost me. The quote you appear to be attributing to me is not mine. Or were you just telling me exclusively what your opinion of it was?