October 30, 2020, 06:41:55 AM

Author Topic: Season 2011 - 2012  (Read 355307 times)

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #555 on: December 27, 2011, 11:47:55 PM »
Just to clarify: The post was c & p'ed from another forum. It is NOT mine. I was interested to see what people's opinions were both of the content and also the style which is far more 'racy' than anything any of us post on here.

I should have made the above clearer.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 8115
  • that rug really tied the room together
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #556 on: December 28, 2011, 12:08:46 AM »
it was all Tes's doing.  All his words.  The plot was led by Martin.  He's the Guy Fawkes of the operation. 

Honest it was, Ray.  Honest it was.  Please don't cut me again with the angle-grinder. 
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Ed

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1830
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #557 on: December 28, 2011, 12:12:47 AM »
Ed, you've lost me. The quote you appear to be attributing to me is not mine. Or were you just telling me exclusively what your opinion of it was?
Heck no, you stated up front that it was from some other forum (and that you were quoting
it to stir up some debate). Besides, its not your style to go over the top with stuff like that.

What pissed me above about the quote was that it's completely ridiculous on 2 fronts:

1.) Mancini, had the brief to get 4th last season after spending somewhere in the region of
£150/£200 million & to his credit he delivered. This season they've cracked on and built on the
work from last season. It's fair and realistic. Similarly, if Kenny at the end of the season, after
a year and a half in the job and a fair amount of money spent, hasn't delivered 4th, it's right and
fair that questions are asked. Some people may argue that the Carling cup is enough (what club takes
that competition seriously?....Birmingham, maybe). But 4th is a vital strategic landmark in terms of
the short-term development of the club. So a review of the management set up would be necessary.

There are no excuses, my understanding is that United have a first 11 out injured at the moment.
But, it's not going to be easy, because Chelsea are certainly not going to hand over 4th (and will spend
whatever in January to secure it) and Spurs are a good bit ahead (and a big club like Arsenal in the mix).
Still, at a big club like ours, we don't expect it to be easy and given our history, the whole ethos is geared toward triumphing in adversity. Kenny knows better than anyone that he has to match those Standards.

At the moment there is a problem with results and it's up to the management, Clarke, Comolli & Kenny
to address that. No problem! (that's what they're paid for).

2.) The other point is, I don't have any problem with anyone grumbling about the manager (Dude and Martin
do it all the time). But nobody ever forgets that we are LFC and stick together. Kenny has earned the right
to be respected and I think that article was out of order and way off the mark attempting to lecture a
football man like Kenny about anything. FFS, Kenny knows what's expected at our club better than anyone.

Offline the dude abides

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 8115
  • that rug really tied the room together
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #558 on: December 28, 2011, 12:21:13 AM »
my understanding is that United have a first 11 out injured at the moment.

and yet they still can blow gooseberries in our face, Ed.

despite having to play their second string outfit, with loads of injuries, and also played til Xmas in the CL games.....and yet they are still miles ahead of Kenny.

Fergie always could build teams.  And he could get performances from lads through sheer force of his presence.  When paint had to be burnt off walls, Fergie never missed.

I can't picture Kenny giving out too much hairdryer treatment.  His approach is more like that of Wilson in Dad's Army.  Along the lines of - 'Would You mind awfully'
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 12:22:37 AM by the dude abides »
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #559 on: December 28, 2011, 12:26:37 AM »
Heck no, you stated up front that it was from some other forum (and that you were quoting
it to stir up some debate). Besides, its not your style to go over the top with stuff like that.

What pissed me above about the quote was that it's completely ridiculous on 2 fronts:

1.) Mancini, had the brief to get 4th last season after spending somewhere in the region of
£150/£200 million & to his credit he delivered. This season they've cracked on and built on the
work from last season. It's fair and realistic. Similarly, if Kenny at the end of the season, after
a year and a half in the job and a fair amount of money spent, hasn't delivered 4th, it's right and
fair that questions are asked. Some people may argue that the Carling cup is enough (what club takes
that competition seriously?....Birmingham, maybe). But 4th is a vital strategic landmark in terms of
the short-term development of the club. So a review of the management set up would be necessary.

There are no excuses, my understanding is that United have a first 11 out injured at the moment.
But, it's not going to be easy, because Chelsea are certainly not going to hand over 4th (and will spend
whatever in January to secure it) and Spurs are a good bit ahead (and a big club like Arsenal in the mix).
Still, at a big club like ours, we don't expect it to be easy and given our history, the whole ethos is geared toward triumphing in adversity. Kenny knows better than anyone that he has to match those Standards.

At the moment there is a problem with results and it's up to the management, Clarke, Comolli & Kenny
to address that. No problem! (that's what they're paid for).

2.) The other point is, I don't have any problem with anyone grumbling about the manager (Dude and Martin
do it all the time). But nobody ever forgets that we are LFC and stick together. Kenny has earned the right
to be respected and I think that article was out of order and way off the mark attempting to lecture a
football man like Kenny about anything. FFS, Kenny knows what's expected at our club better than anyone.

Gotcha, Ed.

It just sort of rambles inanely, building to a crescendo of pure bile.

It's one of the things that sets us apart from other forums (small, but perfectly formed as we are), is that we can express opinions without either being personally insulting to the player/member of coaching staff, and that we back our opinions up with reasons for holding them.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #560 on: December 28, 2011, 12:29:47 AM »
it was all Tes's doing.  All his words.  The plot was led by Martin.  He's the Guy Fawkes of the operation. 

Honest it was, Ray.  Honest it was.  Please don't cut me again with the angle-grinder.

 :D Grins whilst pulling the cord on the chain saw. Damn, I've told Leatherface about cleaning it after he's used it.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 8115
  • that rug really tied the room together
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #561 on: December 28, 2011, 12:36:39 AM »
 ;D


anyroads,  what happens if we miss out on 4th come May time?

does Kenny get his P45, or will our owners chicken out cite that he needs more time?

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Ed

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1830
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #562 on: December 28, 2011, 12:36:53 AM »
and yet they still can blow gooseberries in our face, Ed.
LOL, I know, but it's a well-oiled machine that's been running for 25 of more years!

I agree with most of your points. Who are we kidding? Rafa, a modern manager, would have
sorted out the whole Torres thing, spent the money wisely and taken Fergie on.

With Kenny, we're seeing the beginning of something, whether there's a happy ending to it,
we'll have to wait 'til the end of the season, imo, to find out. He's been presented now with an
interesting situation in the middle of the season and it's up to him (and the supporters and team)
to find solutions to the problems we have at the moment (Management). But he worked miracles
in the second half of last season (with limited playing resources), so i give him the benefit of the
doubt and won't question his appointment 'til then. I'm not the sentimental type though, it's a results
business.

Offline Ed

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1830
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #563 on: December 28, 2011, 12:44:21 AM »
Gotcha, Ed.

It's one of the things that sets us apart from other forums (small, but perfectly formed as we are), is that we can express opinions without either being personally insulting to the player/member of coaching staff, and that we back our opinions up with reasons for holding them.

Agreed! :D

anyroads,  what happens if we miss out on 4th come May time?

does Kenny get his P45, or will our owners chicken out cite that he needs more time?
It's a toss up between Rafa and Guardiola, imo, unless there is a clear path to success under Kenny. :D

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #564 on: December 28, 2011, 01:02:59 AM »
But he worked miracles
in the second half of last season (with limited playing resources), so i give him the benefit of the
doubt and won't question his appointment 'til then. I'm not the sentimental type though, it's a results
business.

So does it come down to players selection in the transfer market?

What we don't know is how much input and influence Comolli had/has on previous purchases and who from any shortlisted targets we actually pursue.

It's doubtful that there'll be another £100M warchest in the Summer, but will funds be available in January and what sort of funds will be available in the Summer and will they be enough to fund a reasonable improvement to the squad?

Although we'll lose Suarez for 8 games (the break may actually do him good) I just hope any striker signed is judged by his ability to play with Suarez, not to replace him for 8 games and we study more closely a player's injury record and certainly steer clear of buying any players with a current injury.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #565 on: December 28, 2011, 01:21:40 AM »
Quite a balanced piece for a journalist considering it's about us:


KENNY DALGLISH LOOKS TO CLASS OF ’89 FOR A REAL LIFT

Wednesday 28th December 2011  By Paul Joyce



KENNY DALGLISH has been here before.


There was a time, even during Liverpool’s era of dominance, when they could not win at home and Anfield resembled anything but a fortress. When the ‘goals for’ column made depressing reading and the club went into a Boxing Day game in sixth place in the top flight.

The Liverpool of Luis Suarez, Charlie Adam, Stewart Downing, and Andy Carroll have learned to live with such toils. But this was the fabled class of 1988-89 when even the likes of John Aldridge, Ian Rush, Peter Beardsley, John Barnes and Ray Houghton struggled to meet the weight of expectation.

Dalglish, manager then as he is now, must have fretted at what the future might hold, only for the new year in 1989 to bring new hope.

Liverpool started rattling in the goals for fun, with 43 scored in the next 20 matches.

They beat Everton in the FA Cup final at Wembley in what was regarded as the Hillsborough final and finished runners-up in the league to Arsenal – although back then second was still regarded as failure.

It is a turnaround that might explain Dalglish’s philosophical approach to the frittering away of precious points this season – the line that opposition goalkeepers are the bane of his life, repeated once again after Blackburn became the sixth side to leave Anfield with a point this season. Yet while the manager may think things can turn as they did in 1988-89, times have changed.

Carroll does not look like he will morph into Aldridge, or Downing into Barnes.

“Goalscoring has been the problem all year,” said Barnes . “They’ve been creating enough chances but they haven’t got an out-and-out goalscorer.

“Luis Suarez is a fantastic player, he scores goals, he comes short, he goes wide, but what they are missing is a real penalty-box player.


“They have to get a classic centre-forward, a No9 who is going to be a six-yard-box player and they need to get one of really proven quality.”

Statistics reveal Liverpool have the lowest conversion rate of any Premier League club, taking just 8.20 per cent of their chances, and have scored fewer goals than Bolton or Blackburn. Manchester United’s conversion rate is 20.89 and Manchester City’s 20.87. And it is not just Liverpool’s strikers who are profligate.

Adam has scored just twice – one a penalty – and Jordan Henderson once in the league, while Downing has still to open his account.

Dirk Kuyt, last season’s leading marksman, has not scored in the top flight, although he will argue that he cannot find the back of the net if he is kicking his heels on the sidelines.

Suarez remains a scorer of great goals, rather than a great goalscorer. Carroll has barely put a foot right since his arrival at Anfield a year ago.

The gilt-edged opportunities he spurned against Blackburn, allowing goalkeeper Mark Bunn to take the plaudits when really he should have been fetching the ball from the back of his net, marked another frustrating outing for him in red.

Carroll scored 19 goals in the Championship in 2009-10 and 11 for Newcastle the following season before his move to Liverpool. But as well as being hideously over-priced at £35million, Dalglish’s capture of him has been ill-conceived.

His statuesque style of play does not fit in with Liverpool’s attempts to pass and move. The nagging suspicion is that, at 23, he is too old to change his ways.

“We are getting a lot of chances, but I don’t know what is happening. We’ve got top players like Luis, Stevie, Stewart Downing. I thought Andy was amazing.” said Jose Enrique, who played with Carroll at Newcastle.

“He had three good chances to score, but it was the same for him as everyone.

“Nobody pays £35m for a player for nothing and Andy is a great player. He is value. When he starts to score one goal, he will score many goals.”

It was like that 23 years ago. The worry is that history will not repeat itself.


http://www.express.co.uk/football/view/292239/Kenny-Dalglish-looks-to-class-of-89-for-a-real-lift

I think the bit in bold is probably the crux of the issue.

Having a player in the Andy Carroll mould requires you to play a certain way. That way is at odds with the style that Dalglish appears to be attempting to implement.

So what came first? The Carroll signing or the choosen style of play. Or did the way we played at the end of last season, pre-dominantly without Carroll, change Dalglish's mind as to the way forward?
Does the signing of Stewart Downing provide a clue to the answer or just pose another question?

Or is he trying to amalgamate two styles, which is why the team and pattern of play appears a bit imbalanced and rather disjointed sometimes.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #566 on: December 28, 2011, 01:29:07 AM »
The Kop aren't singing as their 'Sweet Carroll-nine' stays out of tune

27th December 2011 By Dominic King


The Kop wastes little time composing songs for new heroes.

The moment a player starts to quicken the pulse with thrilling performances, or a new signing arrives amid a blaze of publicity, the wordsmiths get to work.

So when Andy Carroll received ownership of one of Liverpool's most fabled jerseys, following his headline-grabbing £35million move from Newcastle, the new No 9 was bound to be the subject of a new ode.

It went like this: 'Sweet Carroll-nine! Oh-oh-oh! Scoring never looked so good! Goals all the time! Oh-oh-oh! Just like Kenny said he would!'

But, much like Carroll's career on Merseyside, the chant has yet to take off.

   Unlike the Depeche Mode track Just Can't Get Enough, which has been tinkered for Luis Suarez, the Neil Diamond-inspired verse rarely, if ever, gets an airing.

Another frustrating afternoon - this time in the 1-1 home draw against Blackburn - has led to more questions.
Is Carroll's style compatible with Liverpool's preferred pass and move? Is he a suitable partner for Suarez? Will he chip in with 15 goals a season? Can he ever justify that huge fee?

At the moment, Carroll gives the impression that the stage on which he finds himself is too much, too soon.
His play suggested he was in a muddle, often finding himself in the wrong position or on the periphery.

Liverpool needed a goal, but the striker's movement betrayed him.

He has the stature and physique to bulldoze defenders, but failed to impose himself and was often out-manoeuvred.

In the rare moments when things fell into place, Blackburn keeper Mark Bunn was impossible to pass, meaning Carroll's vital statistics now read five goals in 28 appearances.
As a result, Kenny Dalglish is again dealing with questions about how to revive his fortunes.

The Liverpool manager can be prickly when pressed on Carroll but, though his protection of the 22-year-old is admirable, even Dalglish will recognise the time is approaching when the man he refers to as 'Big Yin' has to deliver.
'If he gets an opportunity, I am sure he will take it with two hands,' Dalglish said.
'It takes a bit of time for everyone to get acquainted with each other but we are happy with the progress we have made so far.'

Significantly, he retains the faith of his team-mates, too. Jose Enrique, who played alongside Carroll for Newcastle, is adamant all that is required is a bit of luck.

'Nobody pays £35m for a player for nothing and Andy is a great player,' Enrique argued.

'He is value. When he scores one goal, he will score many.
'The most important thing for him (against Blackburn) was that he had the opportunity (to play) again.'

Indeed, the most consecutive starts Carroll has made for Liverpool is five and it could be that he is yet to recover fully from the two serious injuries he sustained in the past year - it is 12 months to the day since he ruptured his thigh playing for Newcastle at Tottenham.

There is no doubt Carroll has the tools to come good at Anfield - when he first joined in training in March, he made a positive impression with his new team-mates - yet, for the moment, he finds himself the butt of a wisecrack sweeping Merseyside via text message.

'Breaking news,' it reads. 'The FA have handed Andy Carroll an eight-game run in the Liverpool first team. The club are set to appeal.' **

A cheap shot, perhaps. But only when he starts scoring will the Kop start singing.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2079144/The-Kop-arent-singing-Sweet-Carroll-stays-tune.html

**Funny, though a bit a harsh.

Interestingly the clash of styles is mentioned again.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Martinmarx

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1822
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #567 on: December 28, 2011, 01:34:58 AM »
We need to hold our nerve until May and not let disappointments make us impatient and rash in what we are wanting.

I can't see the owners evening thinking about pulling any triggers until the end of the season, when everything will be viewed in it's entirety and within the context of individual events which have occurred throughout the whole season.

First off, I'd like to extend my great thanks for that article on Kenny. That's probably the best written piece I've read in a very very long time, I also happen to agre with virtually everything the author say. Thanks for posting it, it is appreciated. Btw, what do you mean by "racy". Sorry my Swenglish vocabulary doesn't carry that.

As for your post and having patience I think it's sound and what will happen. What will also happen is that during the final quarter of the season, when we're hopelessly trailing 4th, we will start win games as we always do when we're out of it. This will then constitute proof Kenny's the man to lead us to glory, just look at 80-something when we wer x points behind y after z games and the pope just had his dog shot... You know the drill. In the end we'll end up wasting another year and another couple of 10's of millions pushing us further towards the brink. I'm not saying sacking him right now is the right move, but rather he should be held against what he managed to give us, not what the team managed to display in 10 pointless games.
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #568 on: December 28, 2011, 01:35:51 AM »
From: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2079122/Kenny-Dalglish-tries-cure-Liverpools-poor-home-form.html

A short-cut back to the top of the table was never going to be possible and it should be remembered that seven players - not to mention Dalglish and his assistants Steve Clarke and Kevin Keen - were elsewhere on January 1 this year.


It's an interesting point, concisely made.

What's happening to the standard of journalism lately? Have they exhausted all their bile on the Luis Suarez issue? Or has Kenny been sending out brown paper Christmas cards?  ;)
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #569 on: December 28, 2011, 01:57:26 AM »
What will also happen is that during the final quarter of the season, when we're hopelessly trailing 4th, we will start win games as we always do when we're out of it.

I guess it depends when or if the upturn happens and it should be looked at in the context of the whole season and if there's reasons for that other than 'the pressure is off'.
It's as pointless coming with a late run that's too late, as it is bursting out of the starting blocks but flagging and fading well before the end.

Maybe the January window will give us an idea of where the owners' thoughts are at the present on the situation we find ourselves in. Or maybe it will provide us with a spark that sees a run that isn't too late and sees us pinch 4th right at the death in game 38.

We're still in the League Cup and maybe getting past City could kick start our season.

I just think we need to judge the season in it's entirety at the end and until then, keep the faith, though not blindly. We were never going to be able to build a squad strong enough to deal with the loss of what are still key players in Gerrard, Lucas and Suarez in a couple of windows and carry on without a degree of difficulty.

I think if Dalglish is considering any more British players he needs to consider not just the advantage of them being used to the Premier League but that the adjustment needed to play for a big club may need to be regarded as a bigger factor than them supposedly being comfortable with the different style the Premier League serves up.
Carroll, Downing, Henderson and Adam have either shown signs or are showing signs of that adjustment being a bigger one than would initially appear to have been factored in, IMHO.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.