October 16, 2019, 04:01:22 PM

Author Topic: Season 2011 - 2012  (Read 246371 times)

Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1455 on: March 28, 2012, 11:22:54 PM »
Rafa's hooked.

yes, arguably Europe's finest young (he is relatively young) manager, who loves merseyside, the people and the football club.......a man who took us to two CL finals in 6 seasons.......and all on a paltry 16 million or so net budget per annum.

and he's calling out (discreetly) to come back and continue his work.

only morons would ignore his laments for a return.


Aside from everything thats going on at the club right now I would have loved to see how Rafa got on with some cash.

Never say never but i dont see it happening with this ownership. I get the impression Rafa isnt highly regarded within the corridors of LFC.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1456 on: March 28, 2012, 11:49:59 PM »
Aside from everything thats going on at the club right now I would have loved to see how Rafa got on with some cash.

Never say never but i dont see it happening with this ownership. I get the impression Rafa isnt highly regarded within the corridors of LFC.

It would be interesting, definately, Juan. He needs to give Pako a ring, send him some flowers, and say 'sorry'.

He was a superb European manager but he just didn't get the Premiership. It's neither as technical as La Liga or as tactical as Serie A, afterall it's English football we're talking here. If he could just relax and release the shackles a touch I believe he could still do it. Also, look to buy fewer players each Summer and understand the continuity can be worth a new player or two a season. It's Arsenal's secret to always finishing comfortably in the top four.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

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Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1457 on: March 29, 2012, 08:49:04 PM »
Strange, my Liverpool-o-meter (wtf?) is sending odd signals about the
FA Cup semi...

Just not that confident about it at all, at all...

The tea leaves are also not good...

Tbh, i've never felt like this, I'm conditioned from an early age to see us triumphing
over them at Wembley....

Dunno. :'(


Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1458 on: March 29, 2012, 09:44:04 PM »
He was a superb European manager but he just didn't get the Premiership. It's neither as technical as La Liga or as tactical as Serie A, afterall it's English football we're talking here. If he could just relax and release the shackles a touch I believe he could still do it. Also, look to buy fewer players each Summer and understand the continuity can be worth a new player or two a season. It's Arsenal's secret to always finishing comfortably in the top four.

Excellent summary. The problem is these issues once made him fail and I, for one, believe they are very much a part of who he is and won't therefore "go" away, i.e., we will get the same robotic and underperforming side managed by a man whos fear to lose always outwon his will to win ending up in him making defensive changes to hold on to a precious point at home against bottom half sides. And people want him back? We truly are a lot of masochists I tell yous.

The re-appointment of Rafa would truly and utterly highlight our status as a club without ambitions.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 09:45:28 PM by Martinmarx »
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1459 on: March 29, 2012, 10:48:45 PM »
Excellent summary. The problem is these issues once made him fail and I, for one, believe they are very much a part of who he is and won't therefore "go" away, i.e., we will get the same robotic and underperforming side managed by a man whos fear to lose always outwon his will to win ending up in him making defensive changes to hold on to a precious point at home against bottom half sides. And people want him back? We truly are a lot of masochists I tell yous.

The re-appointment of Rafa would truly and utterly highlight our status as a club without ambitions.

Martin, you;d have sacked Fergie after 4 or 5 seasons with him not winning the title.

You do realise that very few are gonna take you serious when you poo-poo Rafa in favour of Brendan Rodgers!   ;D

I reckon some Spanish bird kicked sand in your ice-cream, one summer in Majorca.    :P

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1460 on: March 29, 2012, 11:22:56 PM »
I reckon some Spanish bird kicked sand in your ice-cream, one summer in Majorca.    :P

The fiery Latinos don't normally aim for the ice cream.  :'(
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

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Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1461 on: March 29, 2012, 11:38:38 PM »
The fiery Latinos don't normally aim for the ice cream.  :'(

sounds like you have had a previous bad experience, Tes, with the fiery latinos.



In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1462 on: March 30, 2012, 09:24:50 AM »
Martin, you;d have sacked Fergie after 4 or 5 seasons with him not winning the title.

You do realise that very few are gonna take you serious when you poo-poo Rafa in favour of Brendan Rodgers!   ;D

I reckon some Spanish bird kicked sand in your ice-cream, one summer in Majorca.    :P

Dude, Rafa got 6 seasons and bar Shanks, unprecedented power over the club. He signed, give or take, 80 players during that time. That figure in itself is evidence he doesn't have a clue. His fans always cry that he wasn't given sufficient fundings but conviniently forge his incompetent and spurious transfer policy/strategy heaped an unsound wage structure on the club limitig funds for new signing.

I think he did a very good job during his fist three years. Then the CL-finals got to his head and his ego grew too big and he totally lost his judgement. Off you go Pako etc. etc. During his final three years we were slowly going backwords and the fact we finished outside the top-4 twice during his tenure shows he never really left the Iberian penninsula.  He wasted our best chance at the title by sticking to his stubborn defensive tactics instead of letting the shackles of when ManU time and again slipped up. Fair enough that magical spring was fanastic but most of us already knew ManU had it in the bag.

Rafa's history and thankfully so.

I haven't said we should appoint Rodgers. I just played with the thought. We've tried the proven-track-record-strategy for over  a decade and bar one magic night in Istanbul it didn't pan out that well.
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1463 on: March 30, 2012, 09:02:12 PM »
Me realised that would keep yer mouth shut! Moahahahahaha.  ;D
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Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1464 on: March 30, 2012, 09:26:56 PM »
Dude, Rafa got 6 seasons and bar Shanks, unprecedented power over the club. He signed, give or take, 80 players during that time. That figure in itself is evidence he doesn't have a clue.

Rafa took us to two CL finals in those 6 seasons.

what has Brendan Rodgers won?

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1465 on: March 30, 2012, 10:17:07 PM »
Rafa took us to two CL finals in those 6 seasons.

what has Brendan Rodgers won?
Makes no difference having a discussion about it. There's no way
BR is going to be the manager of LFC next season.

In order to manage a club the SIZE of us, for an extended period of
time, the manager would need to be someone special. Flavour of the
month in the Premier League is, imo, a very, very poor indicator.

Who manages the top clubs in Britain? Is their a precedent for giving
a manager that just won promotion from the championship (3 managers
do this every season) charge of a multi-million pound global institution
with a glittering history?

Tbh, imo, it's simply the most ridiculous idea that's ever been posted on
this forum!

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1466 on: March 30, 2012, 11:42:55 PM »
In order to manage a club the SIZE of us, for an extended period of
time, the manager would need to be someone special. Flavour of the
month in the Premier League is, imo, a very, very poor indicator.

agreed, Ed.

ten minutes ago, flavour of the month was Roberto Martinez (now his club, Wigan are bottom of the premiership).

twenty minutes ago, flavour of the month was Owen Coyle (now he's also fighting relegation).

what gets me, is that punters seemingly never learn.   



In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1467 on: March 31, 2012, 01:02:03 AM »
agreed, Ed.

ten minutes ago, flavour of the month was Roberto Martinez (now his club, Wigan are bottom of the premiership).

twenty minutes ago, flavour of the month was Owen Coyle (now he's also fighting relegation).

what gets me, is that punters seemingly never learn.   
Boils down to pressure, no doubt Brendan Rodgers is showing some
management ability in the particular context of Swansea. I'm sure
Steve McClaren was darling of the month once upon a time. As was Roy
Hodgson, Allardyce, Bruce, Keane, O'Leary at one point or another.

When the results are going well and a team has some reasonable system
that works with the particular group of players, a lot of momentum and
team spirit can build. The press need something to write about, so X gets
praised to the heavens. One trick ponies and relatively mediocre managers
can appear great. Just like everything else though, imo, they all have their
level.

In a different set of circumstances, the questions asked of them and challenges
change and a lot of these guys get found out. The results don't go their way,
a slump happens, they lose self-belief, the press becomes bad, the decision-making
is erratic and they can't come up with answers, turn it around. Most never recover
from the trauma and are scarred by it. Eventually they all find their level
(lol, TV pundits if they have the looks).

In 3-5 years time, I can't for the life of me see the rush, Brendan Rodgers may or may
not merit a second look. What level of experience has he attained in the league or Europe,
the size of clubs that he has managed and whether he has won anything.

The expectation, ego, scrutiny and demands of managing a top club
requires a special character, imo. Currently we're waiting to see what Kenny
can come up with...can he mastermind victories over Everton & Chelsea/Spurs
while maintaining a respectable finishing league position? It's a big ask, late in the
season, but any manager worth his salt would be relishing that challenge, imo.


Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1468 on: March 31, 2012, 01:50:09 AM »
Is Kenny Dalglish tarnishing his reputation beyond repair?

The under-fire Liverpool manager returns to St James' Park, knowing his transfer dealings compare unfavourably with Newcastle's prudent policy

There are kinder environments for Kenny Dalglish to take his faltering reputation as a football saviour this weekend than St James' Park, the closest place he has come to failure in football. Dalglish's chief problem during his 20 months on Tyneside from 1997 was that he wasn't Kevin Keegan, though the boot is on the other foot now. He is the one deemed the Messiah and however he might repel the notion, it is becoming clear that he took an almighty gamble with his reputation by returning to Anfield in the depths of last winter.

Ahead of the match with a club where Dalglish took over in the month of January, briefly flourished but was later undone by the performances of players on whom he spent a lot of his owners' money – there are many symmetries between Newcastle and Liverpool second time around – he was asked whether it had ever entered his mind that he had a lot to lose by leaving a cruise liner in the Gulf to heed Anfield's call last winter. "I think that question was said when I took the job and my answer then was that it was an honour to be asked to come back," he replied. Dalglish is so incapable of retreating from this stonewall stance that heaven knows his honest opinion on anything, though it is hard to believe that in his quieter moments he doesn't yearn for the imperious Liverpool bequeathed to him by Joe Fagan, when he first took over as manager back in 1985.

"Didn't we used to have a team in those days as well?" Dalglish said, to the idea that this is the kind of rebuild job that 1985 wasn't. But Fagan's side had just reached the European Cup final at Heysel, it was countered.

"They lost," Dalglish replied. "I think you should look back at the stats and see how many played in my first season as manager, and how many played the season before."

Dalglish has always felt indignant about the idea that his 1985-86 Double was a product of a rich inheritance. "What made me laugh at the end of such a successful season was the critics saying I had done the Double with a team inherited from Joe. I have total respect for Joe but the Double-winning side wasn't anybody's team but mine," he said years later. But the core – Ian Rush, Ronnie Whelan, Alan Hansen, Mark Lawrenson to name a few – stayed at a club then dominating the English game. John Barnes, Peter Beardsley and John Aldridge came later. Now Dalglish shepherds a side being cast further and further way from the financial might of England's elite by three consecutive years outside of the Champions League and the struggle to build or expand a stadium in line with the model of Arsenal or Manchester United.

All this might be a little easier to bear if Liverpool could only turn up players with the uncanny knack of tomorrow's visitors. When Damien Comolli was appointed director of football in November 2010, those who follow and analyse Liverpool reached deep into the recesses of France's Ligue 1 for clues as to whom they might sign. Sylvain Marveaux's name jumped out immediately given that Comolli, like Liverpool owner John W Henry, adhered to the principles of sabremetrics – finding good value in unlikely places through statistics. But Liverpool reached for the cheque book, signed Andy Carroll and instead it was Newcastle who used the proceeds to sign those French players who were going for a song.

Newcastle's low-key chief scout Graham Carr is, unlike his comedian son Alan, not a particularly chatty man, but his eye for a player has been overlooked by some who don't know Tyneside while Alan Pardew has taken the plaudits. Mike Ashley – with his love of a gamble – has been willing to back Carr's instincts. It meant that Newcastle signed Hatem Ben Arfa, despite his suspect reputation with authority. And that when Ben Arfa was recovering from his double leg break at France's Clairefontaine academy, Newcastle managing director Derek Llambias and club secretary Lee Charnley visited and happened to meet Marveaux. It's never been entirely clear whether a failed medical or cold feet caused 25-year-old's Marveaux's move to Anfield to fail at the last moment. But a Newcastle car was available within an hour to whisk him from Melwood to Tyneside, where he showed genuine signs of promise before suffering a groin strain. Yohan Cabaye, signed because Newcastle spotted a €4m release clause in his contract, and Demba Ba followed the same pattern. Liverpool had Cheick Tiote watched before he also chose Tyneside; a £3.5m move from FC Twente which looks a major bargain now.

Dalglish has spent £115.3m to Newcastle's £26.3m – a fifth of the Liverpool figure – in the past 14 months – yet on players who were no secret, at the top end of the market, and who, in the case of Charlie Adam and Stuart Downing, have gone from the top of their previous clubs into seasons at Liverpool which have not improved them. Jordan Henderson needs a less rarefied environment to develop. Craig Bellamy has been the one undeniable success.

Dalglish was unwilling to reflect on Newcastle's reinvestment of the Carroll cash. "I'm not going to sit here and wax lyrical about somebody we are going to play against on Sunday, am I?" His inference was clearly that Liverpool's commitments in the League Cup and FA Cup have made the difference. "They went out of the two cups relatively early so they only had the league to concentrate on and I think that will have helped them as well," he said. The achievement is attributable to a lot more than that.

For a manager who has always rooted himself among the players – his relationship with them survived all outside pressures when the Newcastle job imploded – what shocked about Liverpool's 2-1 home defeat to Wigan Athletic last weekend was their inability to produce a reaction to defeat at Queen's Park Rangers from a two-goal winning position three days earlier. "The Wigan game's been done and dusted. If you wanted to ask a question about the Wigan game you should have asked that afterwards. I was stood at the door," Dalglish said – shutting that one down.

He has periodically suggested that luck is all that Liverpool – eight points adrift of Newcastle – are lacking and, after Wigan, enigmatically suggested that the "philosophy" might be wrong. "The philosophy is the way we approach the game and maybe our education in how to win a game," he said, when asked to expand yesterday. "We don't need to be the attractive passing team we want to be. Sometimes we've got to be more ruthless. It is all part and parcel of learning. We can win a game but you've also got to learn how not to lose a game. Maybe we [the coaching staff] have got to learn, as well as the players." He seemed to be saying that the way Liverpool have always done things must change, though in the past few weeks it is hard to discern any philosophy at all. Early days – but that gamble currently looks like a losing one.

Red or black? How the signings compare

Liverpool

L Suarez       Ajax       £22.8m
A Carroll       Newcastle       £35m
J Henderson       Sunderland       £16m
C Adam       Blackpool       £9m
S Downing       Aston Villa       £20m
Doni       Roma free
J Enrique       Newcastle       £5.5m
S Coates       Nacional       £7m
C Bellamy       Manchester C free

Total spend since Kenny Dalglish took over in January 2011 £115.3m


Newcastle United

H Ben Arfa       Marseilles       £5m
S Kuqi       Swansea free
D Ba unattached
S Marveaux       Rennes free
Y Cabaye       Lille       £4.3m
G Obertan       Man United       £3m
Santon       Internazionale       £5m
P Cissé       Freiburg       £9m

Total spend £26.3m

 http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/is-kenny-dalglish-tarnishing-his-reputation-beyond-repair-7604058.html
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2011 - 2012
« Reply #1469 on: March 31, 2012, 03:49:29 AM »
Newcastle's low-key chief scout Graham Carr is, unlike his comedian son Alan.
Said it at Christmas, he would have been our best signing in the transfer window.

That's what big clubs do. Poach talent from smaller ones.

From memory the owner (Ashley) was ridiculed when he was starting out (most likely by Lawton & co.),
suffered the indignity of relegation. Tried lots of different things before getting it right.

As a club we take ourselves far too seriously and dare not be radical and innovative like the Toon
(a more lightweight and flexible outfit). We resist change and are suspicious of any that does not bear
immediate results (Carroll, Comolli, Dalglish). Then the blame game begins with the negatives magnified
and the positives ignored. We should, imo, expect the owners to be bold and make mistakes at the
beginning before getting it right long term.

btw, the dude over at the Swiss Ramble has the real story on Newcastle:

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/