Season 2011 - 2012

[Juan]

i think the most important thing is that once we join the cult of Kenneth that we have to stand by him no matter what...
yes he's brought about our lowest league position since 2005....and yes that was the year that rafa won the champions league but so what? all that fancy dan qualification for that europe footie is all very well...but ultimately where does it get you besides the top?
And before that? the last time we ended up 8th??? 93/94 under souness...another brilliant player turned not so good manager...can i see a theme here?
sure we had the lowest home scoring record since 1903...but that's just numbers and they can be ignored...

and sure we had to rely on fulham losing to make sure that we maintained our glorious record of never finishing below 8th in the modern era...but thats just statistics...

and so what that we end up below our local city rivals, Everton who have spent nowt and who have never spent 120 mil in their entire history let alone a few insane months last summer??

That our lord Kenneth doth not taketh up the mantle from ye olde last season and doth offereth a bunch of old a.rse supposedly played 'the liverpool way'TM...is irrelevant....that he is consistently out of his depth is not of import...

through the wind and the rain etc...we must support our leader....i now realise this and shame on thee who remaineth doubtful....

so apart from tactics, woeful spending, useless management and a distinct lack of football nous...what possible reason should we doubt our lord?

But Bart what are we meant to do if the owners decide to keep Kenny?

Nobody can argue against any of your points but as fans what are we meant to do? We can voice our dissent on forums like this and in fairness it feels good to vent but it wont change anything if the owners have their minds made up.  So if Kenny is kept on as manager I will support the team next season. I will try to look at things with a positive perspective. After that all you can hope for is for better additions than last summer, an improved performance from the team and for the owners to make what they think is the best call for the club.

I dont see us competing with the top teams any time in the near future so I suppose its a case of sucking it up, enjoy it whenever possible and vent our disillusionment along the way.

[Juan]

Tens of millions of pounds to drop two positions and finish below the wealthy and mighty Everton. FSG must be chuffed with their return on investment.

They have take a more hands on approach at the club going forward or employ someone who can run the club for them. In their absence the season has been nothing short of a shambles. Maybe they have bitten off more than they can chew.

[Juan]

when you have to wheel and deal, in the lesser known areas of the market, you are not gonna be often winning leagues.

Agreed. Looking at that City team today they have spent the bones of half a billion and they just about got over the line. There are huge question marks over the future direction of our club. We cant afford to compete for the best players, I cant see how we can possible get back into a position to challenge. All of the clubs eggs seem to be in the Financial Fair Play basket but we dont know how stringently that will be implemented yet or whether creative accounting will render it impossible to really implement.

[Tes]

They have take a more hands on approach at the club going forward or employ someone who can run the club for them. In their absence the season has been nothing short of a shambles. Maybe they have bitten off more than they can chew.

Juan, we keep saying this don't we and again nothing changes. At least if the manager buys players that see us improve, however much he gets to spend, at least the football is partly taking care of itself. The club as an entity is a long way from where it needs to be, personnel wise.
Hopefully we'll see that (or at least some of it) addressed this Summer.

They can only take a back seat as they have no knowledge of football as a sport, the subtle differences that the PL has from other leagues, the politics of domestic and European football or any aspect whatsoever of Assoc. Football.
They need to appoint people who have. The Glazers take an absentee approach but they have the luxury of having a great set of people running every aspect of the club. FSG don't.
How they manage to be able to judge what is needed and who is fit and capable of filling those identified roles, is something I struggle to see. How would we apply ourselves in this situation to baseball? Do any of us know the first thing about the sport, I know I don't.

We'll all be supporting the club next season, whoever the manager is. We'll enjoy the victories, mull over the defeats or failures to win, discuss team selections, transfers in and out, and ride the roller coaster we've always ridden since most of us can remember.
If Kenny's manager so be it. We'll have all the same emotions, to the same levels, heights and depths we've always had and we'll be just as desperate for him to succeed as we would be for any other manager, more so.
Part of the disappointment is that it's him who's failed. We want the dream. We want our legend to be the one who turns things around and sees us back there challenging to get back in the CL. Then establishing ourselves once again as a top four team. Then going on to challenge for the league. Then winning it etc.

It's hard to have to admit that I don't think he's up to it. But I can only see the club. That's all that matters. Some individuals we may also get attached to above them merely being a part of the whole, but that emotion for an individual can never be greater than that for the club.

Damn this drug called football. 

[the dude abides]

i think the most important thing is that once we join the cult of Kenneth that we have to stand by him no matter what...
yes he's brought about our lowest league position since 2005....and yes that was the year that rafa won the champions league but so what? all that fancy dan qualification for that europe footie is all very well...but ultimately where does it get you besides the top?
And before that? the last time we ended up 8th??? 93/94 under souness...another brilliant player turned not so good manager...can i see a theme here?
sure we had the lowest home scoring record since 1903...but that's just numbers and they can be ignored...

and sure we had to rely on fulham losing to make sure that we maintained our glorious record of never finishing below 8th in the modern era...but thats just statistics...

and so what that we end up below our local city rivals, Everton who have spent nowt and who have never spent 120 mil in their entire history let alone a few insane months last summer??

That our lord Kenneth doth not taketh up the mantle from ye olde last season and doth offereth a bunch of old a.rse supposedly played 'the liverpool way'TM...is irrelevant....that he is consistently out of his depth is not of import...

through the wind and the rain etc...we must support our leader....i now realise this and shame on thee who remaineth doubtful....

so apart from tactics, woeful spending, useless management and a distinct lack of football nous...what possible reason should we doubt our lord?

 

great post.

shame on us all for ever having doubted Lord Kenneth of Melwood.

the darkest part of the night is just before dawn.

he is taking us ever lower, to the very depths, in order that we better appreciate the bright new morning that he is leading us toward.

there is a spaceship, waiting behind the moon, to take his chosen people off to a better existence.

we just have to believe.

[Juan]

Juan, we keep saying this don't we and again nothing changes. At least if the manager buys players that see us improve, however much he gets to spend, at least the football is partly taking care of itself. The club as an entity is a long way from where it needs to be, personnel wise.
Hopefully we'll see that (or at least some of it) addressed this Summer.

They can only take a back seat as they have no knowledge of football as a sport, the subtle differences that the PL has from other leagues, the politics of domestic and European football or any aspect whatsoever of Assoc. Football.
They need to appoint people who have. The Glazers take an absentee approach but they have the luxury of having a great set of people running every aspect of the club. FSG don't.
How they manage to be able to judge what is needed and who is fit and capable of filling those identified roles, is something I struggle to see. How would we apply ourselves in this situation to baseball? Do any of us know the first thing about the sport, I know I don't.

We'll all be supporting the club next season, whoever the manager is. We'll enjoy the victories, mull over the defeats or failures to win, discuss team selections, transfers in and out, and ride the roller coaster we've always ridden since most of us can remember.
If Kenny's manager so be it. We'll have all the same emotions, to the same levels, heights and depths we've always had and we'll be just as desperate for him to succeed as we would be for any other manager, more so.
Part of the disappointment is that it's him who's failed. We want the dream. We want our legend to be the one who turns things around and sees us back there challenging to get back in the CL. Then establishing ourselves once again as a top four team. Then going on to challenge for the league. Then winning it etc.

It's hard to have to admit that I don't think he's up to it. But I can only see the club. That's all that matters. Some individuals we may also get attached to above them merely being a part of the whole, but that emotion for an individual can never be greater than that for the club.

Damn this drug called football. 

I'd like to think that the way the owners have been ruthless in letting people go that they have learned enough to know whos adding value to the club and whos not.

Whether they genuinely think Kenny is still adding value is hard to tell. If they give him another season I think its more about they feel he has still something to offer rather than being down to giving into fans sentiment.

I get the feeling that Liverpudlians are more willing to give Kenny another season firstly because its Kenny and then because they feel he still can turn things around. I personally dont think people would want Kenny to stay if they really felt he was a lost cause.

Initially sentiment may have played some part on how I viewed Kennys time last season at the club. This season though sentiment plays no part. There is still 20% of me that would like to see Kenny get another season just because I feel he possibly has more to offer than what we have seen since Christmas. 80% of me points to the horrendous form we are carrying. But as i said in other posts I dont want Kenny sacked unless the club appoint someone worthwhile. Change for changes sake is rarely positive and will only cost us more money in the long run.

[Tes]

Whether they genuinely think Kenny is still adding value is hard to tell. If they give him another season I think its more about they feel he has still something to offer rather than being down to giving into fans sentiment.

I don't think they will do anything other than with clinical thought. They don't need to. It's their club, at least legally and they won't have the burden of the emotional attachment to Dalglish as the rest of us do.
Then there's the fact that there's the huge Atlantic puddle giving them day to day distance. We're not like the Redsox in that respect.
If Dalglish is replaced and the new manager makes progress, then I think most will be able to put aside their sentiment towards Dalglish and appreciate the change was the right thing and of course an improvement will make it more obvious that Kenny had underachieved.

[Ed]

I'd like to think that the way the owners have been ruthless in letting people go that they have learned enough to know whos adding value to the club and whos not.

Whether they genuinely think Kenny is still adding value is hard to tell. If they give him another season I think its more about they feel he has still something to offer rather than being down to giving into fans sentiment.

I get the feeling that Liverpudlians are more willing to give Kenny another season firstly because its Kenny and then because they feel he still can turn things around. I personally dont think people would want Kenny to stay if they really felt he was a lost cause.

Initially sentiment may have played some part on how I viewed Kennys time last season at the club. This season though sentiment plays no part. There is still 20% of me that would like to see Kenny get another season just because I feel he possibly has more to offer than what we have seen since Christmas. 80% of me points to the horrendous form we are carrying. But as i said in other posts I dont want Kenny sacked unless the club appoint someone worthwhile. Change for changes sake is rarely positive and will only cost us more money in the long run.

Juan, I agree with a lot of that. Hope Carroll gets picked for the Euros squad. Following ASI
off this forum, (it doesn't feel like a fan site anymore), too much criticism of everything and
little insight, imo, (i get the impression that losses are actually celebrated by some). Most of
the lads, as far as i could see, worked hard this season, we weren't good enough in the league.
Hopefully, the lessons learned will make us more competitive and consistent next season.
Delighted with the new kit and the cup runs (Shame about the FA cup). So long. YNWA

[Martinmarx]

But Bart what are we meant to do if the owners decide to keep Kenny?

Pretty much what tes' is saying: support the club which doesn't necessarily mean support the manager. This equation where the club and the manager is the same factor is quite misguided. As bart, tes and dude so elequently put forward in a number of well written (and hilarious) posts there simply is no way forward with Kenny. To me that means keeping him may be good for keeping nostalgia alive but it won't be what's in the best interest of this club and that, my friend, will always be my number one priority.

How do the rest of you feel about "the Kop" being to stubborn in it's defence of Kenny it may scare off candidate for the hot seat forcing us to scrap the bottom of the barrel? I mean the extremly incoherent treatment of Roy and Kenny must make us look like a bunch of hillbillies from the outside.

[barticus]

But Bart what are we meant to do if the owners decide to keep Kenny?

Nobody can argue against any of your points but as fans what are we meant to do? We can voice our dissent on forums like this and in fairness it feels good to vent but it wont change anything if the owners have their minds made up.  So if Kenny is kept on as manager I will support the team next season. I will try to look at things with a positive perspective. After that all you can hope for is for better additions than last summer, an improved performance from the team and for the owners to make what they think is the best call for the club.

I dont see us competing with the top teams any time in the near future so I suppose its a case of sucking it up, enjoy it whenever possible and vent our disillusionment along the way.

Juan, the club has to come first all the time.
The owners, manager and players are always going to be second to that...the problem for liverpool in the last few years is that certain egos were allowed to be more important than the club itself.
If the rumours are true then the homegrown players of Carra and Stevie G undermined Rafa and made it easier to get rid of him...i firmly believe that the reason rafa stuck his neck out when criticising the lies of hicks and gillette was for the good of the club, he probably could have done it with a tad more subtlety but as english is not his first language then he could sound very blunt...the captain made no mention of the problems with hicks and gillette, nor did the vice captain...still it's easier to criticize an experienced manager who got us to number 1 in europe (cos any of them could do the same cos it's dead easy) rather than their pay masters (who weren't of course but hey). How those 2 must look back at their actions and that they'll never again play at the highest level in Europe will be interesting to read in their biographies ....hey ho reap what you sow..

No manager is ever bigger than the club either, in the 90's we saw souness destroy the decades of success by doing it his way...kenny had a chance this season to continue the progress of the second half of last season...but he didn't...the team does not look balanced and they play like individuals rather than a team...and sneaking past cardiff on penalties does not make a good season...we played well in a few games but i see no reason or sign at all that the very same players who have been found wanting this season will suddenly turn to footballing gods in the next...

as for the owners i have been greatly encouraged in the last few weeks that they will act if things do not improve...if it was anybody apart from kenny then i think we would have already heard about the 'agreement to part company' milarky already...if there were signs that we would even challenge for 4th place through a balanced team playing effective football then i would not be so critical...

but the whole season was summed up for me in the FA Cup final where we played like headless chickens who looked like they'd never seen a ball before let alone past it any distance and then start to play with intent when it had all gone pear shaped...and bringing on the old guard to dig us out of the hole we'd created...
a case of what could have been (if we'd played the right players cos we had them, not sold our best player and clamped down on some of the ego's in the club)...
and a case of what can be again...but not with Kenneth...

[Tes]

Juan, I agree with a lot of that. Hope Carroll gets picked for the Euros squad. Following ASI
off this forum, (it doesn't feel like a fan site anymore), too much criticism of everything and
little insight, imo, (i get the impression that losses are actually celebrated by some).

Ed, you need to read the posts more closely then.

Are we just supposed to sit there an accept everything and say 'nowt'. The situation going forward is not good. We all wish it was, but it's better to face the reality than close your eyes to it and live on blind hope.

As to not being fans etc etc, that's just the weak phrases trotted out by some. It's because we're fans with a deep and long standing love that we feel the way we do.

Still, each to their own. 

Even Roy Evans, as fair and level headed as he is and not prone to over-egging or exaggerating things either good or bad, has been damning about the past league season. Is he no longer a fan either?

[the dude abides]

Juan, the club has to come first all the time.
The owners, manager and players are always going to be second to that...the problem for liverpool in the last few years is that certain egos were allowed to be more important than the club itself.
If the rumours are true then the homegrown players of Carra and Stevie G undermined Rafa and made it easier to get rid of him...i firmly believe that the reason rafa stuck his neck out when criticising the lies of hicks and gillette was for the good of the club, he probably could have done it with a tad more subtlety but as english is not his first language then he could sound very blunt...the captain made no mention of the problems with hicks and gillette, nor did the vice captain...still it's easier to criticize an experienced manager who got us to number 1 in europe (cos any of them could do the same cos it's dead easy) rather than their pay masters (who weren't of course but hey). How those 2 must look back at their actions and that they'll never again play at the highest level in Europe will be interesting to read in their biographies ....hey ho reap what you sow..

No manager is ever bigger than the club either, in the 90's we saw souness destroy the decades of success by doing it his way...kenny had a chance this season to continue the progress of the second half of last season...but he didn't...the team does not look balanced and they play like individuals rather than a team...and sneaking past cardiff on penalties does not make a good season...we played well in a few games but i see no reason or sign at all that the very same players who have been found wanting this season will suddenly turn to footballing gods in the next...

as for the owners i have been greatly encouraged in the last few weeks that they will act if things do not improve...if it was anybody apart from kenny then i think we would have already heard about the 'agreement to part company' milarky already...if there were signs that we would even challenge for 4th place through a balanced team playing effective football then i would not be so critical...

but the whole season was summed up for me in the FA Cup final where we played like headless chickens who looked like they'd never seen a ball before let alone past it any distance and then start to play with intent when it had all gone pear shaped...and bringing on the old guard to dig us out of the hole we'd created...
a case of what could have been (if we'd played the right players cos we had them, not sold our best player and clamped down on some of the ego's in the club)...
and a case of what can be again...but not with Kenneth...

great post.  Sums up my feelings exactly on all the issues.

and like you, Barticus, I often reflect on the delicious irony of how our two senior lads wanted Rafa out.....and looking like numpties now, and now never being able to play CL football again in their careers.  Talk about shooting yourself in the foot and looking stupid.    Rafa has kept his counsel well, by saying nothing in public.  But I always said, that if it had been me, I would have gladly allowed gerrard to get his move to chelsea.

and like Tes says, I hope we get people like Big Sami Hyypia as one of our trainers, as opposed to retaining someone like carragher or gerrard.   

if the club is to ever get back to winning ways, it has to get rid of the key problem of the past twenty tears, namely allowing some individuals to be bigger than the club itself......and to stop being so melancholy and soft/decent.  This was never the Liverpool Way, but instead was a culture encouraged by young david moores....and first came to prominence in the roy evans era, as manager.

[Martinmarx]

Ed, you need to read the posts more closely then.

Are we just supposed to sit there an accept everything and say 'nowt'. The situation going forward is not good. We all wish it was, but it's better to face the reality than close your eyes to it and live on blind hope.

As to not being fans etc etc, that's just the weak phrases trotted out by some. It's because we're fans with a deep and long standing love that we feel the way we do.

Still, each to their own. 

Even Roy Evans, as fair and level headed as he is and not prone to over-egging or exaggerating things either good or bad, has been damning about the past league season. Is he no longer a fan either?

That post is the very reason I sometimes wish my native tounge was English. Extremly well put, tes. Nothing is as provocative as the tedious "real fan" discussion.

[Tes]

That post is the very reason I sometimes wish my native tounge was English. Extremly well put, tes. Nothing is as provocative as the tedious "real fan" discussion.

Martin, English may not be your native tongue, but you're a lot better at it than a lot of the natives I know.

The written word is always the hardest not to misinterpret. There's no tone or inflection like there is with a spoken conversation, there's no body language, eye contact or movement etc.

We're all trying to converse and discuss all things about our beloved club, but with half the ingrediants of a normal conversation missing.

Personally, I don't mind either negativity or positivity as long as it's accurate. Differing opinions are great to read as it can open your eyes up to something that you may have missed, or confirm your own train of thought.

[Juan]

Juan, I agree with a lot of that. Hope Carroll gets picked for the Euros squad. Following ASI
off this forum, (it doesn't feel like a fan site anymore), too much criticism of everything and
little insight, imo, (i get the impression that losses are actually celebrated by some). Most of
the lads, as far as i could see, worked hard this season, we weren't good enough in the league.
Hopefully, the lessons learned will make us more competitive and consistent next season.
Delighted with the new kit and the cup runs (Shame about the FA cup). So long. YNWA

Thats a pity Ed, this forum needs more regular quality posters like yourself and Ray , not less. At times there can be an overly negative vibe on here and I think everyone probably checks out for a while every now and then. The one thing i am sure of though is that everyone on here wants to see the team and club get back to its position at the top of English football, I suppose we all just express what we see differently. Like you I try to look for the positives in most situations but in the second half of this season thats been tough to do.

Kennys been summoned to a meeting with the owners in Boston. Steve Clarke who wasnt called for has traveled with Kenny anyway. The fact that the owners have asked Kenny to go to America to me indicates that they wont be replacing Kenny. They surely would have traveled to Merseyside if they intended to sack him, although we have seen how ruthless they can be.

Its sad to see this club languishing where it is but with our failure to qualify for the CL and with the strength of our Premier League rivals I cant see us signing the number of quality players needed that will push us into the CL places next season. That said you just still have to hope that whoevers here in the summer might somehow be able to work miracles.