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Author Topic: Commentary on the games through the season....  (Read 141088 times)

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #945 on: May 15, 2011, 08:01:39 PM »
I agree with a lot of that Dude. I would also like to mention that whenever the pressure's on us to win we fail completely to show up. I remember West Ham away when we had a chance to close the gap on both Spurs and City. We lost and every game between then and today we had no pressure to win and we did great. Now we had the chance to secure 5th (which I always thought was more important than EL play) and we fail miserable to show up. Just as I didn't want to call us champions-elect on the back of this fine run I won't write us off totally ahead of next season. Problem is there will be many games next season where we'll find ourselves in a similar position and some of them we may be able to change, but most we probably won't. That's why I find talk of us finishing top 4, never mind challenging for the title, next season laughable. We're soo far off getting into the top four it's unreal. We will get there but it'll take at least 2 more full seasons of rebuildning before we can nurse any serious hopes of challenging for CL footy.

And Webb, an outside the area shoulder tackle - there's only one man in the world that'll call that one. He's so overrated it's tragic.

All in all I'm positive we can keep our position next season and continue to build a great side for the future.

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Offline the dude abides

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #946 on: May 15, 2011, 08:11:11 PM »
i agree with most of what you say above, Martin.

there have been a few key issues that have been fairly evident, re kenny's reign.  I am gonna save my spiel til the end of season report thread (best to probably focus the flames in one thread, heh heh)

kenny does not analyse the opposition much - and thus he fails to properly respond during a game, to upcoming issues that need sorted.


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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #947 on: May 15, 2011, 08:44:39 PM »
Spot on, I think this game was very much a game in which we could've changed the run of play. Instead we kept being extremly predictable.
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Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #948 on: May 15, 2011, 08:55:25 PM »
The run was always going to come to an end and probably when we least expected it. Was there anything to play for today - really? Look at Arsenal. Lost at home to Villa with CL football all but sealed. Chelsea too drop points to lowly Newcastle. And Blackburn came that close to beating Manure yesterday.

I agree that Kenny needs to learn how to change games with intelligent substitutions. But our options were very limited today. When Ngog came on I knew we were doomed.

Strange things statistics. Before this weekend we were 2nd to Chelsea in the last 6 form guide. Guess where we are tonight? Top! It's been a funny old season.  ;D  http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/2010-2011/form-table/full

Sod's Law was always going to rule today. Kenny's first game as full maanger. Owners over to watch last home game. A run of results none of us saw coming. We haven't suddenly become a bad team. We are top 6 and it won't take much to break into the top 4. I fully expect us to do that next season.
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Juan

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #949 on: May 15, 2011, 11:26:54 PM »
Its always important for Liverpool to be playing European football even be it Europes second competition and its always imperitive we finish as high up the league as we possibly can. Thats why during the week I scoffed at suggestions from Spurs fans that it would be better for them next season if they werent playing Europa Cup football.

Personally the reason I wanted us and still hope we can achieve 5th is for the sake of giving the youngsters some game time again. It gives the likes of Shelvey a chance to break through and could hopefully do the same for players like Sterling next season.

However todays loss could just be the tonic that was needed. Expectations needed to be dampened. Fans were starting to get carried away about next season and hopefully today might have brought a sense of realism back to the situation. We are still some way off a title challenging campaign, whether we can significantly bridge that gap by buying enough quality during the summer remains to be seen. Had we won today and beat Villa next weekend areas needing addressing may not have been addressed. I would sooner have us lose now, deal with why we lost over the summer than realise next October that certain players were actually playing above themsleves from January to May but cant replicate that form  again.

Its onwards and upwards and I have every faith in Kenny. With those dark days in December when Roy was still in charge nobody could have realistically imagined such a dramatic reversal of our fortunes was possible so the fact that today we were playing Spurs for fifth is testament to Kennys ability as a manager.


Offline Kopite999

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Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #950 on: May 16, 2011, 12:43:47 AM »
Completely agree with everything you say ASI and Juan. Well put

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #951 on: May 22, 2011, 05:29:51 PM »
I have never seen a tighter relegation battle.

even the goal difference for 4 or 5 teams is near the same -21 or -22

fascinating watching several games here, and watching the changing fortunes of the various relegation-threatened teams.
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #952 on: May 22, 2011, 08:58:20 PM »
So the season finish as it started with a mediocre and disjointed performance. Maybe it was for the better we finished off at our true level so helping to keep expectations at a realistic level. Because it has to be said with brutal honesty - we're at least 3-4 seasons away from being a top-4 side. The slide we went through during Rafa's last 2 seasons marked the end of Liverpool as a top 4 club. Looking at the squad today there's nothing much indicating we'll be back up there any time soon. Of the players today I'd keep Reina, Aurelio, Kuyt, Meireles and Suarez. The rest just isn't good enough to help us move forward.

Take for instance Lucas. Hyped beyond belief for no good reason. Today, as in every game we needed him (being by far the most experienced CM in the team) to take a step forward. What happens? Nothing, absolutely nothing. He has no impact on the game whatsoever. And this is the player voted the LFC player of the season? Somebody's taking the p**s surely. Flanagan, OK going forward but not even Championship quality defensively. He actually made Konchesky look like Phil Neal today. You say he's young, but that's not good enough for me. Either he's good enough or he isn't. Age doesn't come into it. Shelvey tries and tries and may be a good squad player in a few years. Cole's past it. NGog well, please fill in...,

Also, I didn't like Suarez attitude today waving his arms around every time he didn't get the ball just to waste it himself in the next moment. Kuijt really tried and was the only player, bary Aurelio and Meireles who came through this game with dignity.

As I said above playing at our true level the last couple of games may help keep expectations at a realistic level. Any talk of top 4 or better next season will just prove how ignorant we've become of this game.
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Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #953 on: May 22, 2011, 09:20:19 PM »
So the season finish as it started with a mediocre and disjointed performance. Maybe it was for the better we finished off at our true level so helping to keep expectations at a realistic level. Because it has to be said with brutal honesty - we're at least 3-4 seasons away from being a top-4 side. The slide we went through during Rafa's last 2 seasons marked the end of Liverpool as a top 4 club. Looking at the squad today there's nothing much indicating we'll be back up there any time soon. Of the players today I'd keep Reina, Aurelio, Kuyt, Meireles and Suarez. The rest just isn't good enough to help us move forward.

I'm making a note of your dire prediction Martin. You seem to have slipped back into your former self based on performances in our last 2 games which coincidentally, came once Man City took the last CL slot making there very little to play for. Maybe the lads just never wanted to play in the Europa and neither did the manager. Graham Souness on Sky today reminded viewers that once Liverpool won the title in Bob P's last season with 8 games to go they didn't win another. Today was a meaningless game. Players have mentally switched off.

You don't want to keep what many thought was our player of the season but want to keep Fabio who, despite being a nice bloke, is injury prone and is 32 in September. I think you're in a minority of one there.

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Also, I didn't like Suarez attitude today waving his arms around every time he didn't get the ball just to waste it himself in the next moment.
Agreed and that needs knocking out of him but he still brings a lot to the game.
Cheers,
Ray



Offline barticus

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #954 on: May 23, 2011, 07:39:26 AM »
I think the last 2 games lost at spurs and villa are a positive thing...if we had won those two games we would have gone into the summer thinking that all we had to do was turn up next season and we'd be guaranteed a CL place...this attitude might also have reached the upper heirachy and so we would have spent less on strengthening the team...
we have to remember that our first games were in end of july ...the squad have been playing for 10 months more or less..
there was also the small matter of the world cup last june and july...most of our squad have been continously since the start of the 2009-2010 season...

the positives

by us losing those games we are reminded that we do need to strengthen in most quarters...
by us not being in the Europa league we don't have to start playing in july...
there is no major tournament...so all our players will be fully rested for the first time in 2 seasons...
the exhilarating play i've seen in the games vs manure and mancity are enough to suggest that kenny and steve clarke know what they're doing...i think that if we had those two at the start of the season then we would have been far closer to the final CL place...

and as for an overview of the season as a whole...

any of us would have grabbed 6th in mid december under those cold dark days of hodgson...
i still wake and smile of the thought that hicks and gillette have gone from our club...
i take pleasure in people talking about liverpool football club are actually talking about football once more...there's no more verbal battles, no more grandiose 'we'll play football on the moon' statements, no more worrying about levels of interest payments...or hedge fund percentages...just....football...

the coming season...

Some players will come, some will go...older out for the flash new youngsters of the future...
We'll be playing exciting football that we certainly haven't seen for at least 2 seasons (the manure 4-1, real madrid bashing) springs to mind..
Ideally we need rafa as an advisor...on the batphone as it were...to give tactical advice and timing on substitutions...on those matters he was a god...

And so our position at the end of next season?

Taking into consideration of the teams above us (there are none below who will take our place)..in ascending order..
Spurs...starting 2 weeks before everyone else..(29th july)...playing their games on a thursday...having no real strikers despite having half a dozen...losing bale...shrinking their squad cos of no CL...
Arsenal...losing fabregas...playing fancy dan football and being in all competitions until start of feb and then being kicked out of all of them within 3 weeks...wenger won't spend money....the most vulnerable in the CL places...
Man City...will lose the mercenary that is Tevez...but will no doubt spend even more on a touch of class who might even want to play for the team rather than bemoan his lot on 250 thou a week...massive squad...tactical nous...will be challenging for top place and might even get it...
Chelsea...*cue julie andrews and a bunch of nuns singing* what can you do with a problem like fernando?
aging squad...abramovich having to pay out massively...will he/won't he? didn't seem to work with torres and luiz (though luiz was a good purchase)...with no massive investment they'll be concentrating on staying in the CL places...
Manure...the mankers..those that we despise...hate them though we do...we can see chinks of light in their armour...van der sar gone...they will need to strengthen their shine-a-light midfield...and some of their dodgy defenders...depends on how much they have to spend ...judging by the reports they're in an even bigger pickle than us under hicks and gilette...i keep hoping for their implosion every year and i for one will never stop..

..it might be eternal optimism but from what i've seen since january, then i see massive progress...both on and off the pitch...

So i'm going for 4th. over and out..



Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #955 on: May 23, 2011, 07:29:52 PM »
I'm making a note of your dire prediction Martin. You seem to have slipped back into your former self based on performances in our last 2 games which coincidentally, came once Man City took the last CL slot making there very little to play for. Maybe the lads just never wanted to play in the Europa and neither did the manager. Graham Souness on Sky today reminded viewers that once Liverpool won the title in Bob P's last season with 8 games to go they didn't win another. Today was a meaningless game. Players have mentally switched off.

By that logic you could say our great run in April was down to nothing else than us being out of pretty much everything. I know my judgement was hard in my post above but there's really no other way of putting it. If Lucas is our player of the season then there is no hope. Don't get me wrong. I rate him as a squad player, as the John O'Shea of Liverpool (altho not as versatile). That's one thing. A totally different thing is buildning our midfield around him. Time and a again he fails to show up, time and again he fails to win us back the midfield thereby giving us a chance to get back into the squad. Given he's played every single game (or pretty much so) for the past 2 and a half seasons I don't think asking him to step forward is to ask too much. Again, I don't mind him getting 10-15 games/season to give better players a rest, but if we're gonna build the team around him then there's no hope in sight for a long time.

I think it's a good thing to give the youngsters a run out when there's nothing really to play for. But with points at stake when we're still in it, i.e. before the end of October, we can't afford the naiviety of Flanagan yesterday. The one young player I am indeed impressed by and who I think made more progression in 3 months than Lucas did in 3 years is Spearing. I really appreciate his attitude and will to keep it simple yet contributing to our pass'n move footy.

Aurelio was a tad tounge in cheek, but given his display yesterday I'd keep him for quite some time. Unfortunately he's made of glass so can't be kept for that reason. But yesterday I'd say his performance was the best an LB had this season.

The final quarter of the season is always the best if you go back a decade or so. I don't mean to take anything away from the brilliant and great work Kenny's done but it needs to be kept in mind we also need to be up for it on a cold and rainy/snowy december evening away at WBA or Sunderland. I don't think there's any realistic evidence to expect us to finish higher than 6th next season. I don't say that out of negativity but rather based on a thorough analysis of how good, or poor, we really are.

My expectations next season won't be about position, but rather in the hope we'll see a team, a unit, a collective take form. A collective that relies on each other and refuse to take defeat lightly. Nothing would please me more than to see compusure and resolve emerge as our new trademark.

My pre-close season prediction would then be something like this:

1 United/City
2 United/City
3 Chelsea
4 Spurs
5 Arsenal
6 Liverpool
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Offline Tes

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #956 on: May 23, 2011, 09:45:30 PM »
I think the last 2 games lost at spurs and villa are a positive thing...if we had won those two games we would have gone into the summer thinking that all we had to do was turn up next season and we'd be guaranteed a CL place...this attitude might also have reached the upper heirachy and so we would have spent less on strengthening the team...
we have to remember that our first games were in end of july ...the squad have been playing for 10 months more or less..
there was also the small matter of the world cup last june and july...most of our squad have been continously since the start of the 2009-2010 season...

the positives

by us losing those games we are reminded that we do need to strengthen in most quarters...
by us not being in the Europa league we don't have to start playing in july...
there is no major tournament...so all our players will be fully rested for the first time in 2 seasons...
the exhilarating play i've seen in the games vs manure and mancity are enough to suggest that kenny and steve clarke know what they're doing...i think that if we had those two at the start of the season then we would have been far closer to the final CL place...

and as for an overview of the season as a whole...

any of us would have grabbed 6th in mid december under those cold dark days of hodgson...
i still wake and smile of the thought that hicks and gillette have gone from our club...
i take pleasure in people talking about liverpool football club are actually talking about football once more...there's no more verbal battles, no more grandiose 'we'll play football on the moon' statements, no more worrying about levels of interest payments...or hedge fund percentages...just....football...

the coming season...

Some players will come, some will go...older out for the flash new youngsters of the future...
We'll be playing exciting football that we certainly haven't seen for at least 2 seasons (the manure 4-1, real madrid bashing) springs to mind..
Ideally we need rafa as an advisor...on the batphone as it were...to give tactical advice and timing on substitutions...on those matters he was a god...

And so our position at the end of next season?

Taking into consideration of the teams above us (there are none below who will take our place)..in ascending order..
Spurs...starting 2 weeks before everyone else..(29th july)...playing their games on a thursday...having no real strikers despite having half a dozen...losing bale...shrinking their squad cos of no CL...
Arsenal...losing fabregas...playing fancy dan football and being in all competitions until start of feb and then being kicked out of all of them within 3 weeks...wenger won't spend money....the most vulnerable in the CL places...
Man City...will lose the mercenary that is Tevez...but will no doubt spend even more on a touch of class who might even want to play for the team rather than bemoan his lot on 250 thou a week...massive squad...tactical nous...will be challenging for top place and might even get it...
Chelsea...*cue julie andrews and a bunch of nuns singing* what can you do with a problem like fernando?
aging squad...abramovich having to pay out massively...will he/won't he? didn't seem to work with torres and luiz (though luiz was a good purchase)...with no massive investment they'll be concentrating on staying in the CL places...
Manure...the mankers..those that we despise...hate them though we do...we can see chinks of light in their armour...van der sar gone...they will need to strengthen their shine-a-light midfield...and some of their dodgy defenders...depends on how much they have to spend ...judging by the reports they're in an even bigger pickle than us under hicks and gilette...i keep hoping for their implosion every year and i for one will never stop..

..it might be eternal optimism but from what i've seen since january, then i see massive progress...both on and off the pitch...

So i'm going for 4th. over and out..

Top, top post Barticus. We need to build in a sustainable way so a challenge for a top four finish has to be the sensible target. We need to displace two teams from above us, none of which are exactly on the breadline, and will no doubt strengthen squads that are already stronger than ours.
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #957 on: May 24, 2011, 06:21:13 AM »
Top, top post Barticus. We need to build in a sustainable way so a challenge for a top four finish has to be the sensible target. We need to displace two teams from above us, none of which are exactly on the breadline, and will no doubt strengthen squads that are already stronger than ours.

Reckon that was the short AND diplomatic way of saying the samte thin I tried to say above.  ;D
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Offline Tes

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #958 on: May 24, 2011, 06:21:22 PM »
Reckon that was the short AND diplomatic way of saying the samte thin I tried to say above.  ;D

Agreed Martin. I think our recent run of 'form' under Dalglish, whilst much better than we experienced under Hodgson, has overinflated some fans expectations for next season. We still have a lot of improving and catching up to do and that's before any of the teams above us have strengthened further (if that's what they manage to achieve).
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

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Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #959 on: May 24, 2011, 07:22:53 PM »
By that logic you could say our great run in April was down to nothing else than us being out of pretty much everything. I know my judgement was hard in my post above but there's really no other way of putting it. If Lucas is our player of the season then there is no hope. Don't get me wrong. I rate him as a squad player, as the John O'Shea of Liverpool (altho not as versatile).

Well Lucas has been awarded the fans player of the year award so what do you make of that? He walked it! I don't know how many games you watch but it's possibly more than me as I'm limited to what Sky broadcast and MoTD. I saw about 3 minutes of highlights from the Villa game so I can't form an opinion of him then but in many other games he has played very well. Hence the award. And to compare him to O'Shea is outrageous. I consider him no more than a donkey. Have done for years!!

Quote
That's one thing. A totally different thing is buildning our midfield around him. Time and a again he fails to show up, time and again he fails to win us back the midfield thereby giving us a chance to get back into the squad. Given he's played every single game (or pretty much so) for the past 2 and a half seasons I don't think asking him to step forward is to ask too much. Again, I don't mind him getting 10-15 games/season to give better players a rest, but if we're gonna build the team around him then there's no hope in sight for a long time.

That's your opinion of him and I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you otherwise.

Quote
I think it's a good thing to give the youngsters a run out when there's nothing really to play for. But with points at stake when we're still in it, i.e. before the end of October, we can't afford the naiviety of Flanagan yesterday. The one young player I am indeed impressed by and who I think made more progression in 3 months than Lucas did in 3 years is Spearing. I really appreciate his attitude and will to keep it simple yet contributing to our pass'n move footy.
The talent the youngsters have can be honed by giving them more games alongside Carra and Skrtel. All players are a bit green when they start out but both full backs have done a decent job. Spearing has done well too and has a great shot but I think Shelvey has more natural talent. I would expect to see him feature in more games next season albeit in Carling Cup and the lesser PL games.

Quote
Aurelio was a tad tounge in cheek, but given his display yesterday I'd keep him for quite some time. Unfortunately he's made of glass so can't be kept for that reason. But yesterday I'd say his performance was the best an LB had this season.

The final quarter of the season is always the best if you go back a decade or so. I don't mean to take anything away from the brilliant and great work Kenny's done but it needs to be kept in mind we also need to be up for it on a cold and rainy/snowy december evening away at WBA or Sunderland. I don't think there's any realistic evidence to expect us to finish higher than 6th next season. I don't say that out of negativity but rather based on a thorough analysis of how good, or poor, we really are.

I thought you were talking about Arsenal there, not us. I'll make one prediction now. We will finish higher than Arsenal next season and maybe even Chelsea. Those two teams need a change of personnel and mind management.

Quote
My pre-close season prediction would then be something like this:

1 United/City
2 United/City
3 Chelsea
4 Spurs
5 Arsenal
6 Liverpool

I'll go for:-

1) Liverpool / City / Utd
2) ditto
3) Chelsea / Liverpool / City
4) Spurs
5) Arsenal.
Cheers,
Ray