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Author Topic: Commentary on the games through the season....  (Read 193789 times)

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #540 on: January 13, 2011, 01:00:23 PM »
It would be unfair of me to try and blame it all on Roy because in the last season under Rafa it was clear we had problems. But I also think its unfair to blame it all on Rafa. In his defense he finished 7th last season not 17th so things were never as bad as this season.

It would, of course, be absurd to reduce the current situation by saying it's all Rafa's fault. It is a combination of poor judgement on Rafa's part and the ownership issues. One could argue Liverpool's decline started with he appointment of GH. Because, ever since, we've splashed out hundreds of millions resulting in us sitting tight with  mediocre squad 12 years later. It's this slow but steady decline that finally hits home and if Roy was ever wrong it was when he said the club's in a transitional phase. It isn't. It's at rock bottom where all the values, tradition and belief's have been undermined. The bootroom's gone the unity between fans-players-manager Shanks once spoke of is gone. In short, the Liverpool way's gone and need to be reinvented/re-identified.

That's why I say we shouldn't make any major signings in January.  I say, let Dalglish and Clarke work with what they have and lets see where we are at the end the season (I cannot see us get relegated, I honestly can't). Then the board should decide whether to keep Kenny or not. If they decide to go long term he will have a much better idea about which players to keep/reject/sign. That means our scarce resoursces will most likely be more rationally spent. In any case the catastrophic transfer strategy that has plagued this club for over a decade MUST come to an end. That's an absolute must if this club is to go anywhere. More than anything we need a transfer strategy springig out of a wider ideology what it means to be a Liverpool player. I remember this anecdot from the 80's where Sir Bob said it took just a week or so to spot a player, but up to two year to determine whether the player had the right human qualities to play for Liverpool. I want more of that. I don't want robots, or posh player caring but nothing but their own success. We need to rebuild all this, that's why I say I believe it'll be at lest 2015 until we play Champions League footy again.
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Offline barticus

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #541 on: January 13, 2011, 02:15:35 PM »
It's going to take time for Kenny and clarke's influence to have an effect on the team but at least we started to play attacking football...we need to get rid of the fear of losing and so playing for a draw...which i think last night showed we are beginning to...but with all things it's going to take time...better in the first half...not good in the 2nd and woeful in the last 20 minutes or so..

i think certain decisions have to be made about johnson...i don't know whether he's deemed an unlucky talisman or whether he just plain unnerves the rest of the defense and from that the rest of the team...
he is no defender..mourinho would not play him...says it all..so his days as a liverpool defender must be coming to an end..perhaps there will be a reprieve for him if he is tried out on the right wing...for then he can
attack...and then occasionally defend which let's face it is what he does anyway...he should play there until the end of the season and if he fails shipped out...i hope he is a success...

kelly and aurelio (with insua as back up)...as right and left back..then once we can defend it spreads to the rest of the team...

lucas is not a creative midfielder and we DESPERATELY need a creative playmaker...who can control the game and pass to Torres...

We need a decent striker..(i think luis suarez would do the job (without the biting...though to be honest but to coin a phrase 'i'd love it if suarez had a bite on gary neville, love it!!)

And it's nice to see martinmarx say we were playing more positive football last night..we were and we were at old trafford...BUT...all the stuff over blaming rafa..or even houllier...

we seriously need to get over it..big styley...for example..look at blackpool last night...fair credit to them and holloway...3 in attack and went for the game at home..bravo..that's what we used to do...

Houllier has long gone (we have to look at the last 6 years) and in the first 3 years of rafa's reign we were in the European Champions league final twice and we one it once...three months before that 2ND final we were sold down the river by moores and parry (worth mentioning)...
and thus the steady and slow decline in the last 3/4 years were down to hicks and gillette...SIMPLES!

After the yankees got in and the big name signings of torres and mascherano...rafa had to sell in order to try to compete against chelsea and manure...he couldnt keep players like crouch, bellamy etc...(alonso was a balls up but he's spanish and would always want to play for Real)...but he got pretty good money for them....

his last season was a failure...but as his system was built around torres and gerrard...and them being unfit for the majority of the time then..it showed...we ended 7th...
i freely admit to feeling that rafa had lost the dressing room in that time and asking if maybe rafa's time was up...(all the photo's of gerrard and torres looking at each incredulously didn't help - but as we have seen for the last year or so the media has a different agenda)
In hindsight it was down to hicks and gillette but we weren't being told the in's and out's of the inside dealings of the club at the time...we were only 7 points off 4th...in that season...3 points being that bouncing ball at sunderland...with a fit gerrard and torres we would have made fourth...

rafa didn't have a catastrophic transfer policy...cos he had a net spend of 25 mil over 3 years under the carpetbaggers...not sure why people can't understand this...i'm sure rafa would have loved to kept hold of some players but he couldn't...he needed raised funds to buy players to improve the squad...

i utterly believe kenny will turn it around and i think we might just sneak a european place...any mention of 4th was gone under Roy...personally i would have preferred rafa (but i'll back Kenny all the way) but it'll take time....Roy had the luxury of 6 months for the benefit of the doubt, Kenny is in a situation of 3 or 4 games...from what i have seen in the last 2 games under kenny was progress...we'll be fine...

John Henry has picked up his hammer and maybe two additions would come in handy this january...but to coin another phrase...

'build it and they will come'...


« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 02:23:24 PM by barticus »

Offline Kopite999

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Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #542 on: January 13, 2011, 02:34:56 PM »
@martinmarx

I think your looking too deep into it if you think the decline started under GH. Since then we've been ranked the best team in Europe and regularly qualified for the champions league. I think the decline only started since we finished 2nd in the league. We had a cracking team that needed a little fine tuning but due to the clubs financial position we couldn't make the additions that would have pushed us a bit further. We were so close to putting together a title winning team. since then a civil war has strangled the club. Rafa at war with owners and fans at war with the owners and each other. And on top of this I think we've failed to replace hypia, alonso, mascherano and even arbeloa and keane. I'm not saying keane was any good for us I'm just saying we didn't replace him with a quality striker to help out fernando out.

Unfortunately I think your right about the next time we'll be in the champions league. The only way it'll happen sooner is man city like investment but that's not going to happen
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 02:36:09 PM by Kopite999 »

Clem

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #543 on: January 13, 2011, 04:45:30 PM »
@martinmarx

I think your looking too deep into it if you think the decline started under GH. Since then we've been ranked the best team in Europe and regularly qualified for the champions league. I think the decline only started since we finished 2nd in the league. We had a cracking team that needed a little fine tuning but due to the clubs financial position we couldn't make the additions that would have pushed us a bit further. We were so close to putting together a title winning team. since then a civil war has strangled the club. Rafa at war with owners and fans at war with the owners and each other. And on top of this I think we've failed to replace hypia, alonso, mascherano and even arbeloa and keane. I'm not saying keane was any good for us I'm just saying we didn't replace him with a quality striker to help out fernando out.

Unfortunately I think your right about the next time we'll be in the champions league. The only way it'll happen sooner is man city like investment but that's not going to happen

exactly. top post.

It has got worse this season but this is primarily a result of lack of any significant investment in the team in the last 4 transfer windows. Nesv have redeemed themselves by showing their listening to the fans now and maybe they will see the need for a larger amount of team investment than they had anticipated (judging by their comments) both this January and next summer. While they were being loyal to RH I was beginning to lose faith but now I think we can start to move forward. Rafa was a greater manager than people realised to get this squad into Europe last season, but I think Kenny is just as good and will do everything humanely possible to help the club.  The negativity in our play started as soon as Alonso left - we need a creative passing midfielder, a reliable forward and a fast centre back and at least one winger (maybe a left back too), so that is going to take cash. I havent got a scooby as to what our financial health is but its clear we need to make very astute buys - and Id trust kenny with that.

Offline Ed

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #544 on: January 13, 2011, 10:22:25 PM »
The only scrap of comfort I could draw from the game is that Dalglish gives a damn fine press conference. No bullshit there....Nice to see Moyes in the crowd, going to be a cracker @ Anfield on Sunday (Hope Nando brings his Magic Wand  ;D)

Offline Kopite999

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Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #545 on: January 13, 2011, 11:40:19 PM »
Sunday we'll be a lot better than last night. The atmosphere is going to be the best of the season so far and will make the difference.2-1 to the reds with probably a couple of red cards.

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #546 on: January 14, 2011, 12:06:49 AM »
It's going to take time for Kenny and clarke's influence to have an effect on the team but at least we started to play attacking football...we need to get rid of the fear of losing and so playing for a draw...which i think last night showed we are beginning to...but with all things it's going to take time...better in the first half...not good in the 2nd and woeful in the last 20 minutes or so..

i think certain decisions have to be made about johnson...i don't know whether he's deemed an unlucky talisman or whether he just plain unnerves the rest of the defense and from that the rest of the team...
he is no defender..mourinho would not play him...says it all..so his days as a liverpool defender must be coming to an end..perhaps there will be a reprieve for him if he is tried out on the right wing...for then he can
attack...and then occasionally defend which let's face it is what he does anyway...he should play there until the end of the season and if he fails shipped out...i hope he is a success...

kelly and aurelio (with insua as back up)...as right and left back..then once we can defend it spreads to the rest of the team...

lucas is not a creative midfielder and we DESPERATELY need a creative playmaker...who can control the game and pass to Torres...

We need a decent striker..(i think luis suarez would do the job (without the biting...though to be honest but to coin a phrase 'i'd love it if suarez had a bite on gary neville, love it!!)

And it's nice to see martinmarx say we were playing more positive football last night..we were and we were at old trafford...BUT...all the stuff over blaming rafa..or even houllier...

we seriously need to get over it..big styley...for example..look at blackpool last night...fair credit to them and holloway...3 in attack and went for the game at home..bravo..that's what we used to do...

Houllier has long gone (we have to look at the last 6 years) and in the first 3 years of rafa's reign we were in the European Champions league final twice and we one it once...three months before that 2ND final we were sold down the river by moores and parry (worth mentioning)...
and thus the steady and slow decline in the last 3/4 years were down to hicks and gillette...SIMPLES!

After the yankees got in and the big name signings of torres and mascherano...rafa had to sell in order to try to compete against chelsea and manure...he couldnt keep players like crouch, bellamy etc...(alonso was a balls up but he's spanish and would always want to play for Real)...but he got pretty good money for them....

his last season was a failure...but as his system was built around torres and gerrard...and them being unfit for the majority of the time then..it showed...we ended 7th...
i freely admit to feeling that rafa had lost the dressing room in that time and asking if maybe rafa's time was up...(all the photo's of gerrard and torres looking at each incredulously didn't help - but as we have seen for the last year or so the media has a different agenda)
In hindsight it was down to hicks and gillette but we weren't being told the in's and out's of the inside dealings of the club at the time...we were only 7 points off 4th...in that season...3 points being that bouncing ball at sunderland...with a fit gerrard and torres we would have made fourth...

rafa didn't have a catastrophic transfer policy...cos he had a net spend of 25 mil over 3 years under the carpetbaggers...not sure why people can't understand this...i'm sure rafa would have loved to kept hold of some players but he couldn't...he needed raised funds to buy players to improve the squad...

i utterly believe kenny will turn it around and i think we might just sneak a european place...any mention of 4th was gone under Roy...personally i would have preferred rafa (but i'll back Kenny all the way) but it'll take time....Roy had the luxury of 6 months for the benefit of the doubt, Kenny is in a situation of 3 or 4 games...from what i have seen in the last 2 games under kenny was progress...we'll be fine...

John Henry has picked up his hammer and maybe two additions would come in handy this january...but to coin another phrase...

'build it and they will come'...

Bart Man, thats one of the best summaries of life over the past few years and still gives a nod to future confidence. Played a blinder, my son.

Offline Ed

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #547 on: January 14, 2011, 12:55:39 AM »
I think that to get some consistency in the results, we need some consistency in the line-up and some kind of system and balance. All season who's responsible for what, it's never apparent. Too much doubling up in some areas and leaving gaps in others. Take the other night Lucas is doing his thing (some kind of defensive midfield role), where Poulsen fits in is difficult to figure (does anyone know?).

There's no balance on the flanks, a pacy right-footed defender on the left with Jovanovic (a clumsy dribbler)....the other side Kelly (solid) with Kuyt (giving the ball away way too much recently)....unfortunately IMO Kuyt tracks back way too far to help Kelly leaving us no attacking outlet on that side and encouraging the opposition to pile forward. Surely there is a point at which one of the defensive mid-fielders should be across (Poulsen?) to clean things up? Grrr...

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #548 on: January 15, 2011, 09:49:47 AM »
@martinmarx

I think your looking too deep into it if you think the decline started under GH. Since then we've been ranked the best team in Europe and regularly qualified for the champions league. I think the decline only started since we finished 2nd in the league. We had a cracking team that needed a little fine tuning but due to the clubs financial position we couldn't make the additions that would have pushed us a bit further. We were so close to putting together a title winning team. since then a civil war has strangled the club. Rafa at war with owners and fans at war with the owners and each other. And on top of this I think we've failed to replace hypia, alonso, mascherano and even arbeloa and keane. I'm not saying keane was any good for us I'm just saying we didn't replace him with a quality striker to help out fernando out.

Unfortunately I think your right about the next time we'll be in the champions league. The only way it'll happen sooner is man city like investment but that's not going to happen

I think we're talking about different things here mate. In  my previous post I tried to describe that we've lost the social fabric that ultimately made it possible for us to dominate the domestic game for two and a half decade. As for us finishing 2nd I don't know if you're referring to 2002 or 2009. In either case I don't agree at all with your conclusions. We weren't just there or thereabouts. In 2002 we never really were in it. Arsenal had wrapped it up with 7 games to spare and the only reason we finished 2nd was they beat ManU at OT in the 2nd last game of the season. As for 2009, I think Fergie was right that season wasn't a true reflection of our genuine level which the following season painfully pointed out. I will maintain our decline started under GH, he never got his signings spot on, he never understood what footy he needed to play, and he always rated workhorses ahead of elegant players able to contribute positively to our game. I also think his "transfer policy" was a total and utter catastrophy costing us dearly over time.

Finally GH out long overdue and Rafa in. At the time I was delighted we could lure him to Anfield. It also goes without saying up until his split with Pako I thought he had us moving in the right direction. After that things took a turn for the worse permanently. Add to that the G&H situation (which I always thought was a tad exagerated) and Rafa losing his head unprecedentedly demanding total control over the club's transfer activity. Not only did he buy mediocrity, selling creative players while sticking with his loyal workhorses and strengthen us where we were already strong. He also felt a need to start uncalled conflicts both internally and externally. He was the first manager to continuiously wash our dirty laundry in public, demanding the undemandable so to speak. Much of the current chaos is down to G & H, this wasn't any of their fault tho.

Rafa was always good in Europe, I don't dispute that. At the same time he never really understood the English game. He always held CL success over PL dito, despite Shanks teaching us a couple of decades previously what was our bread and butter. You may say this is a peripheral point, but I seriously think most of the values and ideas this club once built its success on has slowly been turned upside down. I may sound like a conservative old fart but I really really think Fergie to some extent proves my point. Especially as he said most he knew about footy when he took over at ManU he learnt from Liverpool. I'm not saying we should walk towards yesterday, but I definitely think we need to decide what past ideal and values should be adopted to the present.

Oh, and I think your point on the handling of Keane is a brilliant one as it really highlights the difference between LFC of the 80's and LFC of the 00's and how far from our past traditions we've fared.  Rant over.
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Offline Edward224

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #549 on: January 15, 2011, 10:24:55 AM »
Yes and Martin you believed of Fergie when he told us that wasn't our true level in 08/09.

We had the best tactical system in the league imo with players suited to their positions.

Reina as goalkeeper, best in the league. Arbeloa at right back - not the greatest but very dependable and solid in defence (something I admit Johnson is not) Aurelio at left back. Again not the greatest, but technically he was good and could both defend and attack at a decent level. The central defenders of Carra, Hyypia, Agger and Skrtel. 2 top class in Hyypia and Agger 1 solid in Carra and 1 average in Skrtel.

We had the best central midfield in the league with Alonso and Mascherano. Kuyt the workhorse on the right and and underrated Albert Riera on the left who gave us excellent balance in midfield. Whilst Kuyt and Riera were not the best in their respective roles compared to others in the league, at that time, they both offered something to us in that midfield.
Then we have Gerrard and Torres up front destroying teams with their partnership.

What the real problem with that team is that we had no depth of class after that and Rafa failed to allow the players that extra freedom on the pitch thus stopping them reaching their true potential as players.

But set that 11 aside and compared to other first XI's in 08/09 and quite simply ours was the best imo.

If only we could have built on that team instead of destroying it. And yes Rafa does take some blame in that definitely.

But Martin if you listen everything whisky nose said about us then I worry for you :D

He hates us more than any other club in the world, his deep hatred of us will never allow him to have a clear and true opinion of us.

But I don't really want to take about the past we need to look to the present and worry about here and now.

Offline Edward224

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #550 on: January 16, 2011, 02:57:03 PM »
Nice to see us play some football against everton in the first half. Hope we keep it up.

Kelly looks the dogs bollocks and Johnson a reformed player on the left.

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #551 on: January 16, 2011, 05:23:16 PM »
We're leaking goals, we're totally unorganised, we're pathetic definsively. Everton did the same move and we failed to learn inevitably leading to a goal. Skrtel is a liability and our fullbacks couldn't defend to save their lives.

Until we've rebuilt our shaky and talentless defensve we'll continute to give away points.

Other than that I thought we hade a pretty good game. First half we were awesome and should've scored at least another goal.

Torres really looks like he's getting back to his best. So unlucky with his brilliant effort hitting the post. But that's how things are when you're deep down in it - nothing's for free, nothing's easy.

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Offline Edward224

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #552 on: January 16, 2011, 05:36:04 PM »
Whenever we go behind we always seem to lose confidence quickly and feel sorry for ourselves.

I do agree with your assessment Martin, but I thought Kelly was again quality at right back, another top notch performance from him, however I would now like to see an Agger-Kelly central defensive partnership, with carra and wilson back ups. Skrtel is a liability and should be sold.

But also the 2nd half showed quite clearly that Agger is our best defender. With Agger and Kelly already in defence, we just need to add 2 pieces to that back 4 to make it complete.

I also thought Johnson on the left showed glimpses of class, especially with our first goal, but it is obvious that he should be deployed in the midfield rather than at full back.

Offline barticus

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #553 on: January 17, 2011, 06:26:45 AM »
Agreed with the shocking defending but they looked like goal kicks to me...but i think the defending will get better with confidence...which can already be seen to be seeping into the rest of the team...we attacked and we looked like we wanted to win...we have a whole week of training now before the wolves game and hopefully kenny and clarke's methods will start to play dividends, especially in defense!

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #554 on: January 17, 2011, 06:59:00 AM »
Whenever we go behind we always seem to lose confidence quickly and feel sorry for ourselves.

I do agree with your assessment Martin, but I thought Kelly was again quality at right back, another top notch performance from him, however I would now like to see an Agger-Kelly central defensive partnership, with carra and wilson back ups. Skrtel is a liability and should be sold.

But also the 2nd half showed quite clearly that Agger is our best defender. With Agger and Kelly already in defence, we just need to add 2 pieces to that back 4 to make it complete.

I also thought Johnson on the left showed glimpses of class, especially with our first goal, but it is obvious that he should be deployed in the midfield rather than at full back.

True, both Kelly and Johnson were impressive going forward. However, both struggle defensively and especially on our own last 3rd. Again, Kelly's getting better by each game. May turn out the surprise of the season.
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.