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Author Topic: Commentary on the games through the season....  (Read 193842 times)

Offline Edward224

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #780 on: March 03, 2011, 02:00:58 PM »
you use the *kool-aid* reference a few times above.   That is a commonly used American term (for the type of brand-named soda drink that Jim Jones poisoned his cult with in French Guyana).  The term is rarely known by non-americans.  Hence, are you American?  Nothing wrong with being American.  One can find a decent one, given enough time.  But I do like to know who I am debating the club with.

You talk about under performance.  Name me one other club that has finished these past 10 years, nearly always in the top 4, on a net annual budget of approx 17 million pounds.  Go on, try.  And two CL finals thrown in to boot.  And an FA Cup.  Go on.  Name one other premiership club.  You can't. 

It is not so much we under-performed (we didn't).  Instead, we have been overtaken because of others throwing hundreds of millions at the title.  How could any sane business-man compete with the madness at Chelsea and Man Utd (and now Man City)? Would you prefer we did a Leeds United?  Take on massive debts, on the hope that we could keep the financial house of cards afloat by having never-ending success.

Would you run your houehold that way?  Would your wife be happy to see you buy a massive mansion, and a new BMW each year, plus go on endless foreign holidays - all on ever mounting vast sums of debt?  Perhaps you could keep up the façade for a while.  Perhaps your job earnings might pay off the interest for a while.  But sooner or later that house of cards will come crashing down.  Your scheme would be one of madness. 

No, I much prefer sanity.  I prefer  to spend what I can afford.  I prefer to build a bastion of invincibility, not a sand-hill of plastic nothingness, that will blow away with the first breezes of autumn. 

We have got rid of two carpet-bagging, lying buggers.  We have essentially no debt.  We have a fantastic base now to build upon. 

We HAD a fantastic manager - who you bizarrely think played *hoof-ball*.  Goodness knows what you'd make of someone like Sam Allardyce.  Rafa was the best since Paisley  IMHO.  The very best managers (the elite) have the perfect balance between defence and attack.  Rafa was the king of that.  I loved watching his teams.   Take it from me, you will most likely never again see a week where we hammer both Man Utd and Real Madrid, 4-1, playing them both off the park.  Rafa did that.

I am very optimistic re the future.  Kenny has galavanised the club.  Who knows if he can take us to the required level.  But I think he has to be given the opportunity across the next year or two, to try.

Given the fact that Hicks and Gillett, and their mountain of debt, have been kicked out of the club......and given that we have turned our season around, and given the superb lads we bought in January, and given that Kenny has been awesome, how in under goodness can you - and Martin Sheen - be so bleeding negative?

No I am not American! I was born in england, have always lived in england, but from Greek and Guyanese Descent! I find the Kool-Aid term particularly pertinent to what I was saying.

Name me another club, in the last 10 years, that has had the opportunities we've had to insert ourselves into a title race, only to blow it? I can only name one and that is Arsenal after 2005. I am talking about domestic performance not european performance, which I know has been amazing for us, but in this debate I am speaking about our domestic record.  You talk about net spend, but are you trying to tell me that Rafa's record in the transfer market is better than 50%? Because if you are, then sadly you are wrong. Rafa bought some great and good players, but also some shocking players too. I agree other clubs had better resources for transfer funds, but Rafa did spend. What was his record like in the domestic cups after 2006 btw? Exactly.

In the premier league in the last 10 years I honestly do believe we under-performed in certain situations. We could have been 10 points ahead of manure in March 2009, after they came back from the world title championships, but oh no we blew it against the likes of boro and particularly the 2 draws at home against Fulham and West Ham. The opportunity was there and we blew it. By the time Rafa realised this and allowed less grip on the players and just went for it, it was too late as we were playing catch up.

In 2007/8 season we were in the title hunt in the winter, and a win at Reading would have put us in a great position, but Rafa didn't prioritise that instead putting his effort into the CL. We lost to Reading and lost a great opportunity.

In 2006/7 at the start of the season we should have built from our first 2 seasons under Rafa and really go for the title. We had a better team than the Mancs and we were competing nicely with Chelsea, but again Rafa decided to not strengthen in certain areas and prioritised CL over the premier league. We had opportunities to gain ground in the title race, but by November we were out of it because Rafa wanted the CL.

So yes for me we did under perform. Certainly in 2006/7 2007/8 we under performed greatly and in 2008/9 we let a great position slip. So I don't buy your argument.

I prefer sanity and I prefer for us to be self sufficient as well. We are in a great position in that respect.

I said GH played Hoof-ball. Rafa at times played the long game too, it wasn't until the torres-gerrard partnership that we really changed our system. Rafa was not better than Fagan or Dalglish and I laugh at you utterly mentioning Rafa in the same sentence to Paisley. Paisley allowed his players to play and allowed his players to have the freedom to play football. Rafa did not. Fagan won the treble in his first year and Dalglish created our finest footballing team in history in terms of footballing performance in 87-88 so you are extremely wrong saying Rafa is our best manager since Paisley. He's our best manager since Dalglish.




Offline Kopite999

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Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #781 on: March 03, 2011, 06:50:56 PM »
I think we should agree to disagree otherwise this will go on forever.

Rafa will bring a book out sooner or later where the true extent of the restraints he was working under in his final years will be revealed. I think then everyone will say 'he did a good job under the circumstances'.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #782 on: March 03, 2011, 08:57:15 PM »
Name me another club, in the last 10 years, that has had the opportunities we've had to insert ourselves into a title race, only to blow it? I can only name one and that is Arsenal after 2005.

but we haven't had genuine opportunities to compete for the title because of the massive spending abilities of Chelsea and Man Utd.  Net annual spends that got up to 17 million per season will rarely (if ever) allow us to  compete with Chelsea and Utd (and now City).

one example - the year after schmeichel stood down, united went through 4 different keepers in 18 months.  Do you honestly believe that Liverpool could have afforded to bring in 4 keepers in such a short period of time. 

You talk about net spend, but are you trying to tell me that Rafa's record in the transfer market is better than 50%? Because if you are, then sadly you are wrong. Rafa bought some great and good players, but also some shocking players too.

I hate this commonly repeated mantra.  Do you think other managers have better success with new recruits?  Bringing in new lads is always gonna be a risk (like anything else in life).  Will they settle in the city; will they get injured, will they cope with the pace of the english game, will they pine for home, etc, etc.

Look at Everton.  As someone posted in the Guardian today - David Moyes record re buying new lads, is anything but stellar.  He has had more success in the bargain basement end of the market; and been rubbish whe he has had major money to spend.  For example, he spent money on poor signings like:

Kroldrop - £6 million
Beattie - £6 million
Yakubu - £13 million
Bily - £9-10 million
Fellaini - £15 million
Where do Everton and David Moyes go from here
What was his record like in the domestic cups after 2006 btw? Exactly.

what is arsenal's record like in domestic cups since 2006?

or wigan's, or blackburn's (insert 16 cliubs here that are not utd or chelsea).

why do you use the same old mantra's to beat the club up with? 

go ahead and tell me how you;d have spent an annual 17 million net budget differently across the years.

who would you have wanted to have seen owning Liverpool FC.    Who would you have liked our manager to have been these past 10 years? 

It's very easy to criticise....far harder to do better yourself.

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Ed

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #783 on: March 04, 2011, 01:32:22 AM »
Hmmm....I think this idea that a manager should come in and make all the right decisions and win the league is a very very shallow argument. It completely and utterly ignores the context....It's easy to throw names about like Shankly, Paisley or whoever and forget the length of time that they were given and how they built things up over years of hard work! You never hear anyone talk about the role that people like Geoff Twentyman played in our success....

I hate to say it, but Fergie once remarked of our 08/09 campaign that we overachieved.....I tend to agree, that team was close but not ready (both mentally, but also in terms of quality and depth), imo, to win the league. The fact that it fell apart so shortly afterwards (one player, Alonso!) is an obvious indictment of the brittle nature of the foundations. I'm not having a go at Benitez here, just trying to point out that winning the league requires time and strong foundations at all levels of the club. Alternatively, you can buy loads of £20 million players (Chelsea, Utd or City) to achieve or maintain success!
 

Offline Tes

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #784 on: March 04, 2011, 11:54:43 PM »
Ed, I've said many times on here previously that we need to learn how to be challengers for the title before we can actually go on and win it.

I agree that we need to get back to making the league priority over every other competition, however and especially with the new financial rules coming into play, it's always going to be difficult not to prioritise the CL as that's where the main prize money revenue lies.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Ed

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #785 on: March 05, 2011, 01:39:31 AM »
Ed, I've said many times on here previously that we need to learn how to be challengers for the title before we can actually go on and win it.

Hey Tes, I wasn't having a go or anything just responding to Edward224's argument that Rafa should have just come in signed all the right players and won the league and because he didn't do this he's a useless manager?

Anyway, it would take forever to dissect the rights and wrongs of Rafa's reign with respect to our performance in the league. Given the constraints that he was working under, he appeared to be on track up to the sale of Alonso and then it all went a bit pear-shaped!

A good example of the old philosophy, imo, is the blooding of Kelly this season. Watching him bomb down the wing against the Hammers away from home was real progress (one of the big pluses this year!). It's that rhythm over and over week in week out..... fly down the wing get a cross in.... gradually the runs hit deeper & the crosses get better. Pretty soon he's a valuable cog in the machine...over to sports science, keep him rested and free of injury....scouting or the academy finds a player to fight for that position avoid any complacency and ensures continuity!

It's these structures and the talent at this level, imo, that need to be in place before any talk of a challenge for a title is credible!

Offline Tes

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #786 on: March 05, 2011, 08:19:59 PM »
Hey Tes, I wasn't having a go or anything just responding to Edward224's argument that Rafa should have just come in signed all the right players and won the league and because he didn't do this he's a useless manager?

Ed, it didn't come across as having a go at Edward224's post. I was adding to the points you'd made. It's too easy for people to condemn managers for not achieving what we crave and like you said it's a bit more involved than just signing the right players. The Mancs, despite dominating in this country, took a very long time before Taggart had figured out how to succeed in Europe, likewise Rafa was much more familiar with what it took to succeed in Europe than in English domestic football.

Under Rafa I always suspected that there was a further reason we 'appeared' to prioritise the CL once the Toxics has their claws in us and that was the obvious financial appeal.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #787 on: March 06, 2011, 02:28:30 PM »
liverpool v manure
 half-time 2 - 0
 
 two goals for kuyt
 
 awesome dribble, in tight space, by suarez for the opener.....dribbled past three defenders and then dinked it between utd keeper's legs.
 
 second, bad mistake by nani.....heads it back into danger area, kuyt says thanks very much....simple header.
 
 the half ends with an agricultural tackle by carra, that has united all heated up.....and then they reply with a bad tackle of their own.  Good referring, only yellows in both cases.  But Utd trying as usual to bully the ref.
 
 overall - very fast tempo.  Ultra fast.
 
 berbatov hit a post.
 
 we are awful at crossing the ball.  Dear oh dear....embarrassing.  We seem to focus on going down the right and crossing it from that side.  We need to buy a decent crosser of the ball (and a decent corner kick taker, and a decent free kick taker).
 
 if we are to make good use of carroll, we need  someone who can cross a ball.
 
 excellent first half......I expect united to come back and score.  I hope we do not mess this up.
 
 (PS great pity arsenal did not win yesterday....but as usual the  fruit merchants mess up).
 
 
 
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #788 on: March 06, 2011, 02:35:08 PM »
edit - make that 4 defenders that Suarez beat (there were two bad guys he took out at the start of the dribble, near the 18 year line)
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #789 on: March 06, 2011, 02:58:44 PM »
3 - 0

hatrick for kuyt

great free-kick from suarez..........perhaps we have our new freekick taker!
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #790 on: March 06, 2011, 02:59:58 PM »
kop in full song

3 nil up v manure.

doesn't get much better than this.

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #791 on: March 06, 2011, 04:06:37 PM »
Great result, great performance, great everything. Too bad we can't repeat the feat. I was very happy to see us today but throughout the game last weekend's decable was like a wet blanket over this game. If we could've mustered a 10th of the passion, movement and resilience we displayed today against Blackpool, Blackburn, Birmingham, West Ham, Wolves and Stoke we'd be in contention for more than 4th. Problem is, this has been the pattern for over a decade. In fact it's made us so predictable it was written all over after our defeat to West Ham we'd win today's game. In other words, lose/draw against relegation fodder just to play the reigning champions off the park a few days later. Until we get rid of this inconsistency we'll be a Europa League team, at best.

I don't mean to sound negative but it's hard to enjoy this victory knowing full we'll we're less than 50 % to beat Sunderland away in a fortnight making today's great result futile. I understand the locals may enjoy the bragging rights won, but in a long term perspective it's hard not to have a more realistic view on this. Arsenal doesn't seem strong enough to prevent ManU from winning no. 19, I'm afraid.
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #792 on: March 06, 2011, 04:14:20 PM »
oh FFS
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #793 on: March 06, 2011, 04:16:15 PM »
Dude,

Wonderful display of football today. Credit to everyone.

MartinMarx, leopard, spots change. I'm seriously doubting you're a genuine Liverpool supporter.  >:(
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 04:17:25 PM by Ageing Stick Insect »
Cheers,
Ray



Offline the dude abides

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Re: Commentary on the games through the season....
« Reply #794 on: March 06, 2011, 04:19:57 PM »
wonderful display of football, ASI.  I would love to have been at the game.

the tempo was amazing.....right from the off.  I was tired in the first half, just from watching the frantic pace.

Truth be told, we could have been 5 or 6 up by the end.

Kenny is putting together a fantastic offence.  Though to make the best use of Carroll (who I liked the look of), we need a player who can cross a ball.



In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.