December 08, 2019, 12:58:17 PM

Author Topic: Season 2012-2013  (Read 289775 times)

Offline Edward224

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2190 on: March 16, 2013, 06:33:05 PM »
Disappointing performance and result. I knew playing Skrtel was going to be a disaster right from the start.

Again is also seems that we are very weak mentally. Rodgers tried to big us up for 4th or 5th and the players responded like the last 3 occasions this season in being terrible.

So for me this is more urgent than any ins or outs in the summer. Rodgers has to sort out the mentality in our squad.

Allen was disappointing today but with that shoulder injury he should never have started. Allen is clearly a talented midfielder as shown by his stint with Swansea in the premier league last year and the first months here so shouldn't be discarded as a terrible player just yet.


Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2191 on: March 16, 2013, 07:06:38 PM »
Disappointing performance and result. I knew playing Skrtel was going to be a disaster right from the start.

Again is also seems that we are very weak mentally. Rodgers tried to big us up for 4th or 5th and the players responded like the last 3 occasions this season in being terrible.

So for me this is more urgent than any ins or outs in the summer. Rodgers has to sort out the mentality in our squad.

Allen was disappointing today but with that shoulder injury he should never have started. Allen is clearly a talented midfielder as shown by his stint with Swansea in the premier league last year and the first months here so shouldn't be discarded as a terrible player just yet.
Nah, it's the formation we're using that's the problem for the players
we have.  Today we started with this lineup:
                               Jones

Johnson          Skrtel Agger       Enrique
________________________________
                         Gerrard Allen
________________________________
Downing              Suarez               Coutinho
                             Sturridge

Now think about the problems that are created in midfield (which
directly affect the defence) over 90 minutes when the space opens up,
e.g. the line moves forward with a simple attacking move
                               Jones

Johnson          Skrtel Agger       Enrique
________________________________
                         Gerrard Allen
↓               ↓             attack              ↓               ↓
________________________________
Downing              Suarez               Coutinho
                             Sturridge

Who's getting back if it breaks down? Are the 32 year old Gerrard &
rookie Allen the right players to marshal the space?

Then ask yourself if we're playing away from home & what type of team
we're playing against and their motivation?

This is why we get annoyed, this is why Dude hammers the issue of
balance.

Balance, shape, control. It's not a question of simply picking the most
technically gifted players.

Offline Edward224

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2192 on: March 16, 2013, 07:47:13 PM »
Nah, it's the formation we're using that's the problem for the players
we have.  Today we started with this lineup:
                               Jones

Johnson          Skrtel Agger       Enrique
________________________________
                         Gerrard Allen
________________________________
Downing              Suarez               Coutinho
                             Sturridge

Now think about the problems that are created in midfield (which
directly affect the defence) over 90 minutes when the space opens up,
e.g. the line moves forward with a simple attacking move
                               Jones

Johnson          Skrtel Agger       Enrique
________________________________
                         Gerrard Allen
↓               ↓             attack              ↓               ↓
________________________________
Downing              Suarez               Coutinho
                             Sturridge

Who's getting back if it breaks down? Are the 32 year old Gerrard &
rookie Allen the right players to marshal the space?

Then ask yourself if we're playing away from home & what type of team
we're playing against and their motivation?

This is why we get annoyed, this is why Dude hammers the issue of
balance.

Balance, shape, control. It's not a question of simply picking the most
technically gifted players.


So basically what you saying it when we win(and we've been winning more than losing since December) its down to the players and nothing to do with the managers selection or tactics. And when we lose its the managers fault.


As I said - personally speaking - I think we need to sort out the mentality of the squad first and foremost and that is Rodgers job to do.

Whilst I agree to a certain extent in what you are saying in regards to the isolation of Gerrard and Allen, the players were not backing each other up. Downing gave no support to Johnson, Sturridge gave no support to the runners in behind him and really had we the mentality of being more positive and responsive to praise and not wilt under pressure, then against the likes of Southampton, WBA and Villa, we could play 1-1-8 we'd still have the mentality of believing in ourselves to win and the desire to prove they can get the job done.

If some players don't have the mentality that we need then Rodgers has to replace them with players who can respond well to praise and criticism. So for me that is what is now the most important thing.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 07:55:06 PM by Edward224 »

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2193 on: March 16, 2013, 07:59:09 PM »
So basically what you saying it when we win(and we've been winning more than losing since December) its down to the players and nothing to do with the managers selection or tactics. And when we lose its the managers fault.

no basically what we're saying is that the team has no balance, nor tactical awareness. 

and yes we beat Spurs (our first major scalp) last weekend, but it was more a case of us being ahead after 95 minutes, as opposed to us beating the north londoners.

we could just as easily have been behind, after 95 minutes.....given the lack of balance, control and discipline in the side.

the team has no balance.......and there has been no improvement (or even acknowledgement) whatsoever on this issue since Rodgers arrived.

creating balance is what top managers get the big bucks for.  It's all about balance.

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2194 on: March 16, 2013, 08:21:56 PM »
Disappointing performance and result. I knew playing Skrtel was going to be a disaster right from the start.

Again is also seems that we are very weak mentally. Rodgers tried to big us up for 4th or 5th and the players responded like the last 3 occasions this season in being terrible.

So for me this is more urgent than any ins or outs in the summer. Rodgers has to sort out the mentality in our squad.

Allen was disappointing today but with that shoulder injury he should never have started. Allen is clearly a talented midfielder as shown by his stint with Swansea in the premier league last year and the first months here so shouldn't be discarded as a terrible player just yet.

He's attempted to 'big us up' as you say several times this season and each time it's backfired. What his motives have been is not clear cut, certainly it's not a gimme that is was a motivational tool and therefore a specific reaction was the intended outcome.
Personally, it has the whiff of complacency, the scent of self praise and justification.

Naivity is a word that has been used a lot on here with good cause. Martin is now questioning Rodgers' system. And rightly so, we keep seeing the same problems occuring without any obvious evidence that they are being looked at and any attempt made to change it. I'm not saying he doesn't see the problems, as I just don't know, but I can only go on what I see and I don't see the slightest glimmer of a sign of recognition.

I've refered many times to the characteristics of Swansea's play and the way their season panned out and I keep seeing remarkable similarities.

In the Summer I hope that Rodgers is humble enough to re-appraise his whole approach and make the changes he deems neccessary before we start to recruit, a task made harder by the fact that the way things are going there'll be no European football of any sort to attract players, and hopefully in turn, the level of players we spend our limited resources on can still be of the required level, otherwise I'd prefer he didn't spend if he can't improve and get the requisite quality, instead going with continuity instead of a change of personnel and hope that a second season as a group can bring the required improvement.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2195 on: March 16, 2013, 10:29:59 PM »
the team has no balance.......and there has been no improvement (or even acknowledgement) whatsoever on this issue since Rodgers arrived.
At the Emirates against Arsenal, I thought we were close,
except for maybe an issue on the left, ruthlessly exposed
by Walcott. I thought Henderson's performance was spot on.

                       Gerrard  Lucas
                           Henderson
             Downing                  Suarez
                             Sturridge

A few tweaks was all that was required and some work on closing
out games.

Next game v. City he puts Hendo out on the left of a front 3. That's
not his position, and he has dicked about with Shelvey out there as
well (basically Jonjo didn't know what to do). Enrique actually worked
there.

Anyway, finally young Coutinho arrives and this is the mad bit, instead
of keeping the player in midfield which had made us solid and competitive
for that 60 minutes at the Emirates, he adds another attacker & recalls Allen!

                       Gerrard Allen

      Downing       Suarez      Coutinho
                            Sturridge

The really, really, really annoying bit is that the arrival
of Coutinho meant that we now had no problem up front,
but needed to maintain the midfield balance and work on
defence.

                        Gerrard  Lucas
                           Henderson
             Downing                  Suarez
                             Sturridge

Sub Sturridge for Coutinho:

                       Gerrard  Lucas
                           Henderson
             Downing                  Coutinho
                              Suarez

creating balance is what top managers get the big bucks for.  It's all about balance.
It's crazy and this guy is going to be given carte blanche this Summer  :o

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2196 on: March 16, 2013, 10:54:18 PM »
good analysis.

yes, he was close to a balance at the Emirates, Ed.

but for some reason, he keeps changing things around.  Is it ego, control, a power trip, uncertainty, keeping players fresh, trying to find a style, I dunno.

but whatever it is, you don;t find your best team, and balance, by constantly changing things.

The side at the Emirates could have been his benchmark, and allowed him to focus on tweaking things on the defensive side of things.  But nope, major changes are the order of the day.

And it was interesting this week, hearing Sahin's comments.

Nuri Sahin said: “Brendan Rodgers wanted me to play as a 10 but I do not play behind the forwards,” Sahin told Spanish newspaper AS.

“I spoke with him and asked him why I was playing there. It is not my real position. The boss could not answer me…

“But I have left Brendan Rodgers, thanks be to God.”
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2197 on: March 17, 2013, 03:57:19 AM »
but for some reason, he keeps changing things around.  Is it ego, control, a power trip, uncertainty, keeping players fresh, trying to find a style, I dunno.
Who knows? I couldn't for the life of me fathom the decision-making.

The space Southamptom had, they destroyed us in the first half and
were still the better side in the second.

Maybe it's a new theory about playing away from home.

Peronally I stick Lucas's name on the teamsheet first thing (because he's
the only player we have in the destroyer mould). Then I throw Hendo's name
on for some energy, physical presence. No disrespect to Allen but his
performances this season have fallen well short of the standard & he's the
completely wrong player for a tough away game (plus his shoulder has a
problem!). Quieten the crowd, keep a clean sheet first half, I'm happy.

The thing is we're not carrying a load of injuries, which just makes it more
baffling. But if ever there was a first 20 minutes of a game that screamed
amateur gameplan, that was it. You'd think he'd learned something from the
Spurs game. Not our genius.

Again, going back to the Arsenal game, it was encouraging to see us away
from home against a top side meriting a two goal advantage, but it only
represented the beginning in terms of a consistent balanced approach to
getting results. To think that here we are now (on the weekend when both
Everton and Arsenal won) looking like utter mugs, a typical team with nothing
to play for performance
. For LFC, in the middle of march to be out of every
competition and unable to get a result (no problem with a draw) against
a plucky but struggling side. Just depressing.

Nuri Sahin said: “Brendan Rodgers wanted me to play as a 10 but I do not play behind the forwards,” Sahin told Spanish newspaper AS.

“I spoke with him and asked him why I was playing there. It is not my real position. The boss could not answer me…

“But I have left Brendan Rodgers, thanks be to God.”
Clearly aggrieved and there's probably others who don't have the luxury
of now playing for another club. Klopp basically just laughed at the way
Rodgers wanted to play him i.e. it was ridiculous.

Offline Edward224

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2198 on: March 17, 2013, 01:54:00 PM »
Poor diddums, Sahin a professional footballer is unwilling to play in a position he is not accustomed too.

Lucas - signed as an attacking midfielder and asked to play as a defensive midfielder.

Downing - signed as a left winger and was asked to play left back.

Henderson - signed as a central midfielder but has played mainly out wide.

Kuyt - signed as a striker but played predominantly out wide.

I'm sure there are many, many others who we have signed and asked to play out of position over the years. The difference is these players got on with it and never complained or sulked.

Oh yes let's look at how Kloop as been using Sahin.

84min sub
77min sub
Full Game
89min sub
82min sub
81min sub
82min sub
45min sub
 
However his quotes are no doubt lost in translation as is usually the case between one language to another.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2199 on: March 17, 2013, 04:24:02 PM »
Poor diddums,
Listen to the first 5 minutes of Steve Nicol and he's saying exactly
what we're saying i.e.

Nah, it's the formation we're using that's the problem for the players we have. 

http://www.talksport.co.uk/sports-news/football/premier-league/130317/steve-nicol-liverpool-will-be-better-league-if-theyre-not-playing-europe-1938

See the difference is that we're honest in our criticism and don't
hide from the facts!  :P

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2200 on: March 17, 2013, 04:43:38 PM »
Henderson on fitness and form has to be in ahead of Allen. It was bad enough Dalglish sticking him out wide right but left of a front three, hmmmm.

His best performances for Sunderland, England u-21s and us have all come in a central role.

If we want to get the best out of players and therefore the sum of the parts then they need to be played in their correct and/or best position.

I'm not so sure Sahin was fit enough to have coped with playing his preferrred position for us and in the PL. He come to us masssively lacking in fitness and I think that is best borne out by how Klopp has used him since his return.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline barticus

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2201 on: March 17, 2013, 05:08:53 PM »
Henderson on fitness and form has to be in ahead of Allen. It was bad enough Dalglish sticking him out wide right but left of a front three, hmmmm.

His best performances for Sunderland, England u-21s and us have all come in a central role.

If we want to get the best out of players and therefore the sum of the parts then they need to be played in their correct and/or best position.

I'm not so sure Sahin was fit enough to have coped with playing his preferrred position for us and in the PL. He come to us masssively lacking in fitness and I think that is best borne out by how Klopp has used him since his return.

Has to be Henderson in midfield...Allen is injured so playing him is pure madness...with lucas and henderson in midfield covering the defence then we would have been far more secure...part of the problem with the defence is all the stuff rodgers did when he said a 35 year old about to retire is the best defender at the club...there you have 2 internationals linked with world class teams hearing that they're no good...then skrtel gets dropped for 3 months and he's supposed to just slot into the team seamlessly...
Some players rely on confidence...surely the manager is supposed to provide that?


Offline Edward224

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2202 on: March 17, 2013, 05:16:13 PM »
I agree it should be Lucas, Henderson and Gerrard as our midfield three.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2203 on: March 17, 2013, 08:38:39 PM »
I agree it should be Lucas, Henderson and Gerrard as our midfield three.

If Allen needs shoulder surgery then he needs to get it done asap. Playing with that sort of injury is an impediment to him and the team. If he was to fall ackwardly on it it could cause major complications to what can already be a difficult thing to sort out.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2204 on: March 17, 2013, 10:36:19 PM »
and nobody will want to buy someone carrying an untreated injury.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.