December 08, 2019, 06:49:58 PM

Author Topic: Season 2012-2013  (Read 289897 times)

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2280 on: April 02, 2013, 11:30:53 PM »
No, no and no. The reason I keep mentioning Rafa is because he's used as sole evidence Rodger's managerial credentials doesn't fit the bill. Rafael Benitez will never manage this club again mainly because he failed to improve the team in the PL during his 6 year spell. I've said numerous times on here I was happy as fkuc when we signed Rafa, that I'm eternally grateful for no. 5 and that he was probably one of the best managers in the game during his first 24 months at the club. I don't know what happened but it remains a fact he lost it sometime in 2007 - sacking of Ayesteran, Drogba dvd, Parry conflict, sole charge of transfer conflict, endless fights with G & H, the infamous attempt at engaging in mind games with Taggart. And there's more. All of this needs to be taken into context when you decide to write off the current manager after less than half a season. I gave Rafa 4 seasons before I started to write thing similar to what's said about Rodgers on here, why can't you lot give him one? Becasue you KNOW he's not able to take us to the next level?

Yes he deserves respect for winnin no. 5 I agree. I do not agree with the rest. Rafa's mission was to take us closer to no.19. He got 6 full seasons and failed altho the 2008/09 season was good. I would always agree iwith Shanks that the league is our bread and butter. That's something Rafa never took onboard it seems. His fear of losing was Always bigger than his will to win and the steady decline in the league during his tenure (bar that one-off in 2009) is a testament to that fact. I don't think either of us will ever see Brendan cruising us to another CL final. But that's not his commission. His job is to rebuild and restore continuity for this club. He was dealt a very weak hand and given that he's done tremendously well this season. The win at Villa is a huge testament as to how far the team has progressed under his guidance. That's why I think it's unfair, yes even dishonest, to ask of Brendan the same return in results we asked of Rafa who came in and took over a much stronger squad at a much more stable club.

No, that's not the case. Me too can see, in large, what we lack. Me too can see he's made some silly and costly mistakes over the course of the season. But I can also balance that with the good things he brought to the club. Unlike you I never thought he'd be able to fix all the problems we suffered from in one season. Here's some he sorted. Downing's better (tho still not good enough IMHO), Henderson's looking more and more at least decent value for Money, Sturridge and Coutinho looks great buys, we sorted the goal drought, we're playing better and more efficient footy as a TEAM than we have for a very very long time. He's set us up very very nicely for next year!!!

And again scrutiny, constructive criticism, frustration over bad decisions is one thing, personal insults, unfounded criticism, non-support is a totally different. I gave my full support to Rafa for over 2 seasons altho I often thought he made the wrong decisions or priorities.

I hear what you say and I also think I can see where you're coming from. I respect that point of view. At the same time I kind of like and appreciate Brendan's belief in himself and his ideas. An experienced appointment (regardless of the role and formal power connected to it) would always bring a moment of rejection/non-belief in Rodgers no matter how you look at it. When would be the right time to hand Brendan sole power? Who would decide that? I fear such a solution, no matter how logical and sympathetic, would halt the club's progression. We simply have different opinions on that one.

I think what you say apply to most human beings. I would say some of Rafa's decisions though, are unprecedented as for instance his Drogba dvd, the "fact" discussion with Taggart, the Parry incident, and the sole charge of transfer affair. These are decisions and actions on a totally different level than anything Brendan's come even close to. If you're honest about it I think you can see that as well.

I wouldn't bring up past mangers if they weren't constantly brought in as evidence the current manager is "brainless", "Brent-like", "Clueless" or what have you. If Brendan, in this place, had been critizised and judged based on his own merits rather than his age or previous track record we'd probably have a more civilized discussion climate.

That's a concern of mine as well. But maybe Agger and Skrtel never was as good as we first thought? Maybe Skrtel last season was masked by our offensive failure? Maybe Agger just never got the chance earlier to prove his genuine quality? I can see Brendan's preferred style of play may have implications for the players in the squad. We'll see in the summer how he'll adress the issue for it is clear that we would most likely have finished 4th or at least very close to 4th if it wasn't for all the silly mistakes that cost us silly points (even though most of them have been individual).

In hindsight to that game a lot I would say. The change of our central midfield from 2-1 to 1-2 did the trick in terms of preventing Villa to play the ball through the center while at the same time providing more people going forward. It also helped us kill off the game the last 20 where we could see glimpses of what Brendan mean by "resting with the ball".

I hear what you say Martin and to save the rest of the forum from a cure for insomnia, I won't go into depth with a huge reply.

Other than to say this, as I said to Edward when he accused me of the exact same thing, don't tell me what I think, OK?

Unlike you I never thought he'd be able to fix all the problems we suffered from in one season.

If you've read anything I've written as me expecting everything to be fixed in one season then you've either misunderstood what I was writing or my English really is as truly poor as my German teacher used to say it was.

I want to see a balanced improvement. Going from not being able to score but able to defend to going to the opposite extreme of both is not a balanced improvement and it has needlessly cost us goals and much more importantly, points.

The things I don't get with Rodgers is that he's offered up reasons for not doing something but  then has gone and done it anyway.

Two examples:

1. As mentioned the other day, he stated very recently in a printed interview that he had no idea what we needed in terms of inward transfers when he came in or anything about players such as Henderson, yet still he brought in Allen and tried to offload Henderson in the Fulham debacle. Now if he'd have done what he said he was going to do (that was give every player a chance to prove themselves and show him what they could do, thankfully he broke his word again with Carroll) then both the purchase of Allen and the sale of Henderson would have proved unnecessary.

He showed himself the way to go (or at least his words did, and I have no reason or desire to disbelieve him) then did something else anyway.

2. A couple of months or so (could have been even longer) into the season he was all over the press explaining that he didn't have the players at the club to play the way he wanted to, yet still he's changed it wholesale to the way he wants to play irrespective of him admitting he doesn't have the ingredients yet to make the pudding.

Now with the exception of Kuyt, Bellamy and Maxi we have pretty much the same squad that played so effectively in Dalglish's caretaker stint, which is why going back to that style as a starting point, which is pretty much midway between the turgid rubbish we produced a lot of the time last season and the slick, short passing interplay that Rodgers is looking for, would have seen evolution, not revolution, and that was balanced between scoring goals without letting them in at the other end. Dalglish's method of play was the perfect starting point. We had the players that had played it. Henderson was an upgrade on Spearing, and it just left the left side (Maxi/Bellamy) to fill. Downing could have been tried as he's damn sure not a genuine, pure winger. With the exception of Enrique, the defence was the same. Enrique would only add to the effectiveness of the style.

It wasn't a wholesale change to something completely unfamiliar to the players. Then he builds on that, gradually bringing in his own players and the style evolves as more players are recruited/replaced.

Do you see what I mean, he answers his own conundrum, accurately as it happens, then ignores it through his all encompassing belief in this philosophy of his.   

So much for a short answer. Sorry about that folks.


Damn, what a couple of beers around a table couldn't sort out.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 11:32:25 PM by Tes »
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2281 on: April 03, 2013, 12:02:55 AM »
Kind of bemused exactly what position Johnson is playing in
the team, he's beginning to resemble a sort of luxury player (easy on the eye,
pops up with a screamer every now and again), not sure he's at the races
defensively or to put it differently, he doesn't give the impression that he sees
himself and his prime duty as being a defender... :( Almost as if the teamsheet
should read also guest starring Glenn Johnson as...

It's interesting how 'Arry moved him forward at Portsmouth, like he did with Bale at Spurs, I guess to let them play to their obvious strengths whilst lessening the effect of their weaknesses.

Johnson seems like a player who needs to be constantly drilled defensively so it gets constantly reinforced how to approach that side of the game.
Whilst Steve Clarke was here that appeared to happen as he was consistently better than he has been this season in his defensive play.
I realise his role is more attacking but there have been plenty of times when he's been back in a defensive position on the pitch, just out of position for the move taking place around him.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2282 on: April 03, 2013, 12:17:08 AM »
Do you see what I mean, he answers his own conundrum, accurately as it happens, then ignores it through his all encompassing belief in this philosophy of his.   
Do you know any other managers in the league who bang on
about their philosophy?

It's the sort of thing newbies do, everyone knows the only philosophy
is winning.

What's irritating about Rodgers is that he came into the football club
acting as if he was burdened down with serious credibility, when in
fact he was nothing more than an aspiring, young, inexperienced
manager learning his trade.

My presumption is that most of the guff he spouts is rooted in his fear
of not living up to the hype i.e. talking big to impress the locals.

Anyway just glad we got the win at the weekend but didn't see it as
convincing and am wondering why on earth he decided to wage war
on the defence midway through the season, to the extent that Jamie
Carragher became a regular. ::) It's a talking point, he may get away,
this season, with the seemingly blinkered selection of an injured Allen
at the expense of Henderson and promotion of Carragher ahead of Skrtel
but it suggests to me an egocentric approach that will not always work
and be in the best interests of the club and getting results.

It's interesting how 'Arry moved him forward at Portsmouth, like he did with Bale at Spurs, I guess to let them play to their obvious strengths whilst lessening the effect of their weaknesses.

Johnson seems like a player who needs to be constantly drilled defensively so it gets constantly reinforced how to approach that side of the game.
Whilst Steve Clarke was here that appeared to happen as he was consistently better than he has been this season in his defensive play.
I realise his role is more attacking but there have been plenty of times when he's been back in a defensive position on the pitch, just out of position for the move taking place around him.
Still prefer Martin Kelly any day of the week, I'd argue Kelly is
more conspicuous and diligent in his defensive duties while at the
same time more effective in his attacking forays. Johnson for me
at times appears to be caught between two stools.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2283 on: April 03, 2013, 12:32:36 AM »
Still prefer Martin Kelly any day of the week, I'd argue Kelly is
more conspicuous and diligent in his defensive duties while at the
same time more effective in his attacking forays. Johnson for me
at times appears to be caught between two stools.

Ed, that's an interesting and excellent point you make. Kelly is a defender that sometimes goes forward or attacks.
Johnson, like you say, sometimes doesn't appear to be sure of what he is. It's as though he prefers to attack than defend, probably realises he's better at the former than the latter, but knows first and foremost he's supposed to be the latter.

I'm not sure it would work with Kelly as full back and move Johnson forward as he'd become and play more like a winger when he's supposed really to be a wide forward player. Then again, you can also say that Downing and Sterling aren't truly wide forwards , or possibly not true wingers either.

The more you examine that role the more you realise how good Ljungberg was at it, and Dirk when played regularly got a decent goal return (many crucial ones) and was a great line of defence in front of his full back.

I actually thought that Downing could adapt to that role better than he has, because he, like Pires, isn't a true out and out winger, and has the ability to use either foot to a decent degree, so could come inside more easily than say a John Robertson or Dave Thomas.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2284 on: April 03, 2013, 12:58:32 AM »
Do you know any other managers in the league who bang on
about their philosophy?

It's the sort of thing newbies do, everyone knows the only philosophy
is winning.

I think this is one of the areas where you, Dude and I see it one way and Martin either doesn't see it the same way or if he does, it doesn't grate with him like it does with us three.

It sometimes comes across as though he thinks he's reinvented the wheel or come up with something hitherto yet undiscovered.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2285 on: April 03, 2013, 01:08:32 AM »
I hope he did as it lasted far far longer than yours did for Brendan. What am I saying? It never existed on your part at all. You're that new type of fan that decide on your own whether or not to support the manager of this club. Nice one!


here was me thinking you'd be happy, Martin.


you ultimately got what you wanted - our greatest manager since Paisley sacked'and the youngster Rodgers installed.


but rather than speak honestly; you are attacking everyone else, and in doing so, trying to hide from the inadequacies of your managerial choice.


it doesn't work.  You got your man, now deal with the repercussions.


Rodgers is a poor man's Keegan.  And I'd love it, really love it, if it was anything different.



In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline barticus

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2286 on: April 03, 2013, 02:13:03 PM »
All aboard the Jolly Rodger! Full speed ahead! Think not what you can do for your club! Think what you can do for the Rodgers!

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2287 on: April 03, 2013, 03:36:22 PM »
All aboard the Jolly Rodger! Full speed ahead! Think not what you can do for your club! Think what you can do for the Rodgers!

So it's true what they say? The mob rules.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owJJQgt_jgs
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 03:37:24 PM by Martinmarx »
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2288 on: April 03, 2013, 04:26:07 PM »
So it's true what they say? The mob rules.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owJJQgt_jgs


no, the intelligent people, in here, rule, whilst the easily led drink their kool aid.  (a Jim Jones reference, in case you're wondering martin)


http://youtu.be/cRfDE9bndfg
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2289 on: April 03, 2013, 04:31:33 PM »
All aboard the Jolly Rodger! Full speed ahead! Think not what you can do for your club! Think what you can do for the Rodgers!


all aboard, captain rodgers. 


Think not for yourselves, think what thee can do for the captain's PR and legacy. 


all seafaring folks and landlubbers be welcome.


http://youtu.be/hpIlLqfd_xI
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline barticus

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2290 on: April 03, 2013, 06:05:58 PM »

all aboard, captain rodgers. 


Think not for yourselves, think what thee can do for the captain's PR and legacy. 


all seafaring folks and landlubbers be welcome.


http://youtu.be/hpIlLqfd_xI


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Pugwash

Captain Pugwash

The pompous but likeable captain of the Black Pig. Although he boasts of being the "bravest buccaneer", he is actually quite cowardly and stupid. His greed often gets him into trouble. Nevertheless he usually wins the day – either with the help of Tom the Cabin Boy or by sheer luck. Despite being a pirate, he is rarely seen committing any acts of piracy.

Captain Rodgers

The pompous but easily seen through captain of the Big Project. Although he boasts of being the 'bestest and most experienced manager ever' he is actually hugely naive and way out of his depth. His ego often gets him into trouble. Nevertheless he usually just about wins through against teams of lower opposition when he should be soundly thrashing them - either with the help of Captain Marvel or by sheer luck. Despite being a football manager, he is rarely seen committing any acts of management.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2291 on: April 03, 2013, 06:26:47 PM »
Captain Rodgers

The pompous but easily seen through captain of the Big Project. Although he boasts of being the 'bestest and most experienced manager ever' he is actually hugely naive and way out of his depth. His ego often gets him into trouble. Nevertheless he usually just about wins through against teams of lower opposition when he should be soundly thrashing them - either with the help of Captain Marvel or by sheer luck. Despite being a football manager, he is rarely seen committing any acts of management.


 :D


In today's papers, he's saying:


"I have given Pepe and a few of the senior boys here a real responsibility and I think they have enjoyed that."


or, translated:  I haven;t got the first notion about large parts of this fecken job, especially defence, so I tell them to get on with it.



In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2292 on: April 03, 2013, 11:15:10 PM »

 :D


In today's papers, he's saying:


"I have given Pepe and a few of the senior boys here a real responsibility and I think they have enjoyed that."


or, translated:  I haven;t got the first notion about large parts of this fecken job, especially defence, so I tell them to get on with it.

Nice one! Really!
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2293 on: April 04, 2013, 01:44:04 AM »
That's why I posted it.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline barticus

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #2294 on: April 04, 2013, 11:39:53 AM »
Number of crosses played by each Premier League team this season and the percentage that find a teammate...

Guess who's bottom of the table...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2303835/West-Ham-Matt-Jarvis-Premier-League-crossing-statistics.html