Season 2012-2013

[the dude abides]

He gets some variety with the England U21 games which I think helps
him going both ways i.e. he brings the intensity from the Prem. games to
the internationals and the confidence he gets from more time on the
ball in the U21 games to the Prem.

& also the Europa league run-outs give him game time under a less of
a spotlight (because no-one watches them!).

to date, for both Sunderland and Liverpool, Jordan Henderson has not done anything for me.

he's another of those non-scoring midfielders that our scouting system has a preference for.

4 goals in 70 games during his time in the North East, and two for Liverpool. 

He's not good enough to be a wide winger; nor is he prolific/dynamic/creative enough for central midfield.

maybe, maybe, maybe, we could work on developing him as a tough midfield controller (ala mcmahon/souness type), I dunno.  But as well as technical ability, we need to work on his mental abilities.  Hopefully with age and experience, he can develop and become stronger mentally.

[Edward224]

It's his mental ability which I am most concerned about. If he can't develop that side to his game he will never make it here.

I am less worried about his technical and physical ability. I too do not see him as a wide midfielder. But I do see him as a central midfielder who can pass the ball well, keep the ball and can go forward. I do not see him as a defensively orientated player. At all. For me in normal circumstances he'd be Lucas's understudy. But can play alongside him or on the right hand side of a 3 man central midfield.

I would sacrifice Henderson if it meant we had the money to buy a striker or a wide/creative player like a younger Maxi.

On the other hand Sahin is only on loan and Lucas is injury prone so we need a squad in depth for those central midfield positions and Henderson in an ideal world would be in my squad for that role.

But if his mentality is not developed and/or we need raise funds for a striker/wide player then I would sell him.

Henderson wouldn't be at the top of my list of players I'd sell to raise funds, but he'd be in my top 5.

But we need squad depth to hopefully we don't need to raise funds and can then decide to sell Henderson solely on how he has developed.

[Tes]

I love his awareness of his colleagues around him.....it's very rare for someone so young, to play with their head up.

if he keeps developing, like he has been doing, Sterling is going to be the Giggs/Barnes of this generation.  If he develops his finishing, which will come with time, we have a new John Barnes on our hands.

He always looks to see if there is someone better placed and then decides what to do in a given situation. He will improve his goal tally as he gets older but I'd prefer him to carry on being a chance creater, and one that creates space for team mates with his movement. It's great to see a young player with the maturity to be a team player and not simply focusing on 'impressing the boss'.

He needs to be held on to, because if we don't we'll regret it big time.

[Tes]

It's his mental ability which I am most concerned about. If he can't develop that side to his game he will never make it here.

I am less worried about his technical and physical ability. I too do not see him as a wide midfielder. But I do see him as a central midfielder who can pass the ball well, keep the ball and can go forward. I do not see him as a defensively orientated player. At all. For me in normal circumstances he'd be Lucas's understudy. But can play alongside him or on the right hand side of a 3 man central midfield.

I would sacrifice Henderson if it meant we had the money to buy a striker or a wide/creative player like a younger Maxi.

On the other hand Sahin is only on loan and Lucas is injury prone so we need a squad in depth for those central midfield positions and Henderson in an ideal world would be in my squad for that role.

But if his mentality is not developed and/or we need raise funds for a striker/wide player then I would sell him.

Henderson wouldn't be at the top of my list of players I'd sell to raise funds, but he'd be in my top 5.

But we need squad depth to hopefully we don't need to raise funds and can then decide to sell Henderson solely on how he has developed.

Pretty much covers everything there, for me. Ever since we signed him he's been frustrating because you get the feeling he can be much better than he's so far proven to be. He's not going to be a physical player in the sense that he's a bone crunching tackler, but he has the engine and touch to be a creater and the kind that makes late runs into the box, adding goals to creativity. He could  develop into a 'Lampard type' player but with a better engine, but he has to have the mentality to seize the game and the moment. It's a shame he doesn't have Shelvey's mentality.

[Tes]

I would sacrifice Henderson if it meant we had the money to buy a striker or a wide/creative player like a younger Maxi.

Edward, excellant call. We definately lack that sort of player and it's one that would excel in this current team.

[Ed]

It's his mental ability which I am most concerned about. If he can't develop that side to his game he will never make it here.

I am less worried about his technical and physical ability. I too do not see him as a wide midfielder. But I do see him as a central midfielder who can pass the ball well, keep the ball and can go forward. I do not see him as a defensively orientated player. At all. For me in normal circumstances he'd be Lucas's understudy. But can play alongside him or on the right hand side of a 3 man central midfield.

I would sacrifice Henderson if it meant we had the money to buy a striker or a wide/creative player like a younger Maxi.

On the other hand Sahin is only on loan and Lucas is injury prone so we need a squad in depth for those central midfield positions and Henderson in an ideal world would be in my squad for that role.

But if his mentality is not developed and/or we need raise funds for a striker/wide player then I would sell him.

Henderson wouldn't be at the top of my list of players I'd sell to raise funds, but he'd be in my top 5.

But we need squad depth to hopefully we don't need to raise funds and can then decide to sell Henderson solely on how he has developed.

224 You sure as hell change your opinions!

It's almost as if what you praise to the heavens one day, you damn to
damnation in 12 months time (one wonders how your current darlings,
Allen and Rodgers will fare in 12 months time.)

Young Jordan Henderson is mentally fragile? but young Joe Allen has been a
paragon of mental fortitude recently?? I'm not having a go at Allen (who may do
ok for us when he gets played in his position) just noticing your myopia.

Anyway the lad Henderson has his head down and is progressing along and
more power to him I say. He's the type of physical presence we need in the centre
and has the stamina for league campaigns. I don't see mental fragility when he plays
for England U21 and didn't see the other day either when he dwarfed Allen in the centre
and was universally praised for his performance.

Gimme a break! Are you having a laugh?

You choose not to give Henderson a proper chance, when younger players to fully judge them takes at least one year, whether you like it or not Henderson is here to stay and the last few games he has been very good.

Both Carroll and Henderson have the potential to be here for the next 10 years. £50m for the pair of them, that is £5m per year which to me looking at them now and their potential seems a great deal to me.

As for not being anywhere near 4th place......well certainly there are 2 spots locked up in the top 4 - both manchester clubs. We are fighting with chelsea, arsenal, spurs and now newcastle for the other 2 spots - to say we are light years behind is a fallacy and pure bs.

Please don't speak bullshit about the King again. Just because he has been out of management for 10 years doesn't lessen his know how. He has been involved in the game all his life and knows more than you or I.

We will get into the top 4? I don't know. What I do know is that we won't be a million miles off,

Martin why don't you grow a pair?!

Out of it in October? Excuse fornicating me but we are 6 points behind both manc clubs and if we beat manure in 2 weeks we will be 3

I will tell you why, because he is slowly integrating Henderson into the team which benefit us for YEARS, not days, not weeks, not months BUT YEARS.

Henderson has the height and pace to make that position his own for us in future years.

Henderson has taken a huge leap forward and it will take time for him to settle and to improve.

Carroll is an investment for the future if you cannot see that then what can I say.

Carroll is a freaking monster of a player. He is strong, tough, quick and has a magnificent left foot. Yet he has never truly played for us being 100% fit and in form. He needs games to get into form and he will deliver.

Such how you can judge any player, let alone 2 clearly talented players like Henderson and Carroll so early in their careers as professionals and with us beggars belief.

Personally I don't think we can get 4th place............I think we can get 3rd place. Honestly I don't see Chelsea as that much better than us.

Henderson was fantastic today also, he was really our main playmaker, always had awareness of the other players and hardly misplaced a pass. It's as if he's constantly aware of where his 4 nearest teammates are. Great game for him.

Why do so many people seem to hate Jordan Henderson? If you listen to the phone-ins or spend more time than is healthy on Twitter, you’ll have noticed a growing number of Liverpool fans queuing up to put the boot in on their own £16million summer signing. There’s even a Facebook group, inventively titled, “Jordan Henderson is S**T.” It’s not all Liverpool fans, but it is a significant portion of them and they’re not being very fair. Henderson is a more than useful footballer.

In his brief cameo at Stamford Bridge on Sunday, he completed seven out of 10 passes. Seven out of 10. It’s actually rather tempting to use that statistic as a means of quickly describing Henderson to the uninitiated. The 21-year-old really is a 7/10 kind of guy. He’s a cheese and pickle sandwich. He’s a Tom Clancy novel. He’s the second Stone Roses album. He’s good. Not great, but good. If we were to apply the Gary Neville ‘PlayStation Controller’ test, Henderson would be operated by a mature gamer uncomfortable with all those fancy ‘special move’ buttons. And that’s no bad thing.

In all but one of his 12 Premier League appearances this season, Henderson’s pass completion rate has been above 70%. In three games, it has been above 90%. The only aberration was the White Hart Lane massacre (69%) and in that, he was hardly the worst offender. Generally, he gets the ball, he gives the ball and he moves up the field. Get, give, go. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Like another understated Liverpool midfielder, Ray Houghton, Henderson tends to play on the right wing only when his colleagues have the ball. When they are on the back foot, he trots in to form a midfield three. He does his job well and he never complains. But even if Henderson wasn’t giving entirely competent performances, the criticism would be over the top. This is, after all, a young man living in a new city in his first season with one of the most popular clubs on the planet. A little patience might be nice.

The problem, you suspect, is that many of his critics are unaware of the concept of patience, or of Houghton, or of the fact that Liverpool’s success in the 1970s and 80s was built on getting the ball, giving the ball and moving up the field. Today’s game is far more hysterical. In today’s game, if you don’t grab the bull by the horns and flush its head down the toilet like, say, Sergio Aguero at Manchester City, you’re in trouble. Henderson doesn’t grab bulls. He smiles politely and passes the ball around them.

Like his club, he’s in the early stages of what Reds fans will hope is a glorious metamorphosis. In the same way that Kenny Dalglish should never have been expected to convert Roy Hodgson’s misbegotten hoofballers into tiki-taka title contenders inside a year, Henderson should not be expected to wrestle the Ballon D’or from Lionel Messi’s tiny mitts in his debut season. Or indeed, ever. Yes, £16million was probably more than he is worth, but it’s not like he negotiated the fee himself. He shouldn’t be punished for the premium incurred by increasingly stringent ‘homegrown’ player restrictions.

In true Henderson style, let’s make this simple. He is already good. At some point in the future he will be very good and then, as they did with the much-maligned, now much-adored Lucas, those hard-to-please Liverpool fans are going to yank the handbrake and perform a screeching mental U-turn. Perhaps if they got behind their man now, instead of attempting to destroy him, he might get there sooner.

[Tes]

224 You sure as hell change your opinions!

It's almost as if what you praise to the heavens one day, you damn to
damnation in 12 months time (one wonders how your current darlings,
Allen and Rodgers will fare in 12 months time.)

Young Jordan Henderson is mentally fragile? but young Joe Allen has been a
paragon of mental fortitude recently?? I'm not having a go at Allen (who may do
ok for us when he gets played in his position) just noticing your myopia.

Anyway the lad Henderson has his head down and is progressing along and
more power to him I say. He's the type of physical presence we need in the centre
and has the stamina for league campaigns. I don't see mental fragility when he plays
for England U21 and didn't see the other day either when he dwarfed Allen in the centre
and was universally praised for his performance.

Gimme a break! Are you having a laugh?

Ed, he's pretty consistent in his view. A year ago he said give Henderson a chance, he needs time. A year later, after giving him the year, he's changed his opinion, since in his view Henderson hasn't developed the mental side like he hoped he would.

So to sum up, Allen and Rodgers have 12 months to prove themselves. I think. 

I wonder what the opinions will be on Allen, Rodgers and Henderson come November 2013. It should be interesting. 

[Ed]

Ed, he's pretty consistent in his view.

No he aint!

he said:
"We will get into the top 4? I don't know. What I do know is that we won't be a million miles off, "

We were a million miles off!

"I will tell you why, because he is slowly integrating Henderson into the team which benefit us for YEARS, not days, not weeks, not months BUT YEARS"

He puts the years in caps, now he wants to sell him?

"Carroll is an investment for the future if you cannot see that then what can I say. "

Andy plays for West Ham and seems unlikely to ever wear the red jersey again.

"Personally I don't think we can get 4th place............I think we can get 3rd place. Honestly I don't see Chelsea as that much better than us. "

Ahem.

"In true Henderson style, let’s make this simple. He is already good. At some point in the future he will be very good and then, as they did with the much-maligned, now much-adored Lucas, those hard-to-please Liverpool fans are going to yank the handbrake and perform a screeching mental U-turn. Perhaps if they got behind their man now, instead of attempting to destroy him, he might get there sooner."

Major U-turn! Credibility = zer0 

[Tes]

No he aint!

he said:
"We will get into the top 4? I don't know. What I do know is that we won't be a million miles off, "

We were a million miles off!

"I will tell you why, because he is slowly integrating Henderson into the team which benefit us for YEARS, not days, not weeks, not months BUT YEARS"

He puts the years in caps, now he wants to sell him?

"Carroll is an investment for the future if you cannot see that then what can I say. "

Andy plays for West Ham and seems unlikely to ever wear the red jersey again.

"Personally I don't think we can get 4th place............I think we can get 3rd place. Honestly I don't see Chelsea as that much better than us. "

Ahem.

"In true Henderson style, let’s make this simple. He is already good. At some point in the future he will be very good and then, as they did with the much-maligned, now much-adored Lucas, those hard-to-please Liverpool fans are going to yank the handbrake and perform a screeching mental U-turn. Perhaps if they got behind their man now, instead of attempting to destroy him, he might get there sooner."

Major U-turn! Credibility = zer0 

Ed, I was refering specifically to Henderson, which was the content of your original post, not all the other stuff you've since highlighted. On all that, I'll take your word.

A 'clash of Eds' could be about happen. Helmuts at the ready. 

[Ed]

Ed, I was refering specifically to Henderson, not all the other stuff you've highlighted. On all that, I'll take your word.

I think my point is he does car crash predictions, they scare
me because the more certain he is the less likely whatever he
says is to happen!

Trust me, not so long ago he said Henderson was a future contender for
the Liverpool captaincy and he's on tonight saying we should sell him even
though he dwarfed Allen (his current flavour of the month, not YEAR  )
in Saturday's game.

I generally stick by players and have said so many times in Henderson's
defence that the lad has an engine. To win titles you need engines, players
that run up and down the pitch all season and don't get injured. It's that
dependable consistency of effort, game after game after game.

All of a sudden 224 has decided to change the goal posts and now his big
criteria is mental toughness, risible given Allen has struggled in that area in
recent weeks and Hendo comes on like the incredible Hulk on amphetamines
in the game on Saturday (so delighted to be wearing the shirt).

It's so typical 224 just gets swept along by a tide of blind optimism and believes
wholly in whatever set of circumstances is most positive for the club all the time lashing
out at Dude just because he has a different opinion.

[Tes]

I think my point is he does car crash predictions, they scare
me because the more certain he is the less likely whatever he
says is to happen!

Now, I understand the point you were making. The Henderson one being part of a wider point.

All of a sudden 224 has decided to change the goal posts and now his big
criteria is mental toughness, risible given Allen has struggled in that area in
recent weeks and Hendo comes on like the incredible Hulk on amphetamines
in the game on Saturday (so delighted to be wearing the shirt).

It's so typical 224 just gets swept along by a tide of blind optimism and believes
wholly in whatever set of circumstances is most positive for the club all the time lashing
out at Dude just because he has a different opinion.

The bit I've boldened is where I think the whole crux of the problem lies. As everyone has different opinions, I think people also vary in the way they deal with the differing opinions of others from the ones they hold themselves.

A different opinion or the opinion itself is not the problem. It's how other opinions are dealt with and the reaction to them that can be the problem.

I don't think any of us over the years have all agreed entirely on any one topic or even sub topic but we just all have to allow everyone else the right to hold whatever opinion they like, just as we expect to have the right to whatever opinion we wish to as an individual.

Ignore what you don't agree with or put forward reasons for disagreement. If a discussion ensues which you don't like the direction it goes in then leave it alone, but this ain't a points scoring game and you shouldn't be expecting or wanting others to change their opinion to match yours.

From whichever angle we approach anything, I have no doubts about the love and desire for the club that any single one of us has, however different the opinions are or the frequency with which views may be formed or changed.

[Tes]

An interesting article, maybe: http://www.theanfieldopinion.com/2012/11/five-things-weve-learned-liverpool-v_19.html

Not sure the view expressed about WBA is quite right. The same was said of Newcastle last season, and without losing players for international weeks and having no European football, they may have that slight edge that proves to be advantageous to them.

[the dude abides]

It's his mental ability which I am most concerned about. If he can't develop that side to his game he will never make it here.

I am less worried about his technical and physical ability. I too do not see him as a wide midfielder. But I do see him as a central midfielder who can pass the ball well, keep the ball and can go forward. I do not see him as a defensively orientated player. At all. For me in normal circumstances he'd be Lucas's understudy. But can play alongside him or on the right hand side of a 3 man central midfield.

I would sacrifice Henderson if it meant we had the money to buy a striker or a wide/creative player like a younger Maxi.

yes, a younger Maxi would be a tremendous asset.  I miss Maxi  (as well as Kuyt and Bellamy....and Mereless).

re Henderson.  I can't see him as a first 11 starter at the club.  He can fill in and do a job, temporarily.  Maybe as you say, as a Lucas understudy.

But, unless there is unforeseen development to come, I personally do not see enough quality in the lad (to compete at the highest level).

And like i said before, he is yet another of those midfielders that we seem to attract, that does not know where the net is at.

I think Dalglish's total acquisitions were all bad buys - Henderson, Adam, Downing. 

And you will not like me for saying it - but I think Rodger's are not much better - Allen and Borini.

[the dude abides]

I think Dalglish's total acquisitions were all bad buys - Henderson, Adam, Downing. 

oops, how did I forget, Carroll.

[Tes]

oops, how did I forget, Carroll.

Easily.