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Author Topic: Season 2012-2013  (Read 404743 times)

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #825 on: November 26, 2012, 12:21:06 AM »
I just noted he struggled during the final quarter of the game.

That's a better way of putting it than 'shockingly poor'. Whenever the kids drop their standards for a time in the game it has to be expected. We won't get 90 minutes of the same high standard throughout.

All I can say is I'm thankful for the kids and the fact that they have excelled. Where would we be without them?
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Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #826 on: November 26, 2012, 12:37:04 AM »
I wasn't having a pop at Sterling. I like him and the fact he's being played regurarly. However, he isn't excempt from criticism (I also praised his shot, remember?). I just noted he struggled during the final quarter of the game. Like they say, if you're good enough to play, you're old enough to play.

as Tes said, young players need time to develop, mentally and physically.

indeed, that is why anyone with some common sense BLENDS them in, over time, rather than selling off our senior players and depending on kids.

but we are stuck for options.  SO we have to use kids more than we would have liked.

but like you say, if the wall-pass, that one-two, at the end, had been played with the correct weight, it would have given us a good chance of getting the winner.

but I will admit, it is very easy to not get the weight right on that type of pass.

but on the positive side of things, how many young lads would have so unselfishly played the quick one-two return pass?  Very few.  Most kids would have tried to take it on, on their own, or else taken an extra touch (and the chance would have been gone).  Very impressive, selfless play by the lad.

Sterling can be a John Barnes.  He can be that good.  I am very very impressed by the lad.  I just hope that we can keep his feet on the ground, and stop his head from being turned by the wealthy clubs.
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Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #827 on: November 26, 2012, 03:00:00 AM »
indeed, that is why anyone with some common sense BLENDS them in, over time, rather than selling off our senior players and depending on kids.

but we are stuck for options.  SO we have to use kids more than we would have liked.
Agree completely build his confidence at home against weaker opposition
with some second-half appearances and gradually introduce him through
the course of the season. A long-term strategy.

90 minutes away from home is extreme!

But the wisdom and thinking at the club takes a different view. ::)

Arguably, on the back of the draw in the EL and our current league position,
a win today would have been very welcome but then you watch the game...

Once Luis takes his performance level down a few notches we're exposed
for what is actually out there on the pitch. In particular when the opposition
have the ball.

I thought Henderson put in a shift in the first half but never came out in the
second (he did play 90 on Thurs.). Anyway, presuming (unless I'm mistaken)
it's the 2-1 system in midfield and he's furthest forward, his job when we don't
have the ball is chief presser. Like I said in the first half he's energetic enough
to do it but...

the problem is he doesn't get close & put a tackle in and win back possession,
so his job appears to be to pressure the player to play the pass early. Surely,
surely though that only makes sense if the movement and options behind him
are closed down?? Either he puts in the tackle (the way Kuyt would - terrier)
and disrupts the play with Luis ready to pounce OR the organisation behind
him is so good that we win the ball back further back due to a hurried pass?

Now what I don't understand is the logic in the pressing because all I see are gaps
(did Swansea have 2 extra players on the pitch?). Nobody takes responsibility to
organise it either on the pitch or apparently in training. Fanfuckintastic if we are
world-class in other areas of the team but we're not and Barcelona press effectively.

There are many areas on the pitch (corners?) where we're just average but the pressing
gets me and we were promised better than what I'm seeing if I'm not mistaken.

Anyway was watching Spurs on MOTD and Bale was looking awesome in that sweet spot
at the edge of the box where we normally completely switch off. Going to be a tough game
at WHL  ::)


Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #828 on: November 27, 2012, 09:12:39 AM »
Now what I don't understand is the logic in the pressing because all I see are gaps
(did Swansea have 2 extra players on the pitch?). Nobody takes responsibility to
organise it either on the pitch or apparently in training. Fanfuckintastic if we are
world-class in other areas of the team but we're not and Barcelona press effectively.

There are many areas on the pitch (corners?) where we're just average but the pressing
gets me and we were promised better than what I'm seeing if I'm not mistaken.

I think it's all about allowing time for the team to learn, mature and become familiar with each other as players and human beings. The pressing game require camaraderie, collective awareness and intuition from every individual, if you see what I'm getting at? I remember when IFK Gothenburg won the UEFA-cup back in -82 (Beating newly crowned German champions Hamburg SV 4-0 on agg.). It was in no small part down to teams' ability to press all over the pitch, every player working their socks off for the next etc. That's why I fancy what Brendan's trying to do here. It's gonna take a while so I'm not surprised there are those gaps (I can see them too). Over time tho, I think the players will be able to stay concentrated for longer periods of the game  then they are capable of today (as it instantly result in those gaps).
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Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #829 on: November 27, 2012, 04:31:36 PM »
I think it's all about allowing time for the team to learn, mature and become familiar with each other as players and human beings. The pressing game require camaraderie, collective awareness and intuition from every individual, if you see what I'm getting at? I remember when IFK Gothenburg won the UEFA-cup back in -82 (Beating newly crowned German champions Hamburg SV 4-0 on agg.). It was in no small part down to teams' ability to press all over the pitch, every player working their socks off for the next etc. That's why I fancy what Brendan's trying to do here. It's gonna take a while so I'm not surprised there are those gaps (I can see them too). Over time tho, I think the players will be able to stay concentrated for longer periods of the game  then they are capable of today (as it instantly result in those gaps).
I don't expect us to be quite at the level of Rinus Michels total (pressing)
football experiment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj9kpoD0Wnk

 ;D

But I don't see enough team when I watch us play and I
mean team in the sense that be it attacking, defending or
pressing everyone is in it together, knows what they're doing
and it has a purpose. I mean passing the ball around is pointless
if it serves no purpose (teams just sit back and wait).

F*ck this fiction that BR invented a new way to play football,
I want to see a team that's looking for 3 points not content, I
don't want to hear the words fantastic (and the latest one terrific)
when we're 11th in the league. The message should be it's not
good enough, it's nowhere near good enough, we're not satisfied
with that point.

The post-match interview is not a neat and tidy self-serving PR package
summarising the game for the TV audience it's an opportunity to put
across a message:

I thought we were unlucky - you make your own luck
I thought we controlled the game in the first half - the game is 95 minutes
Young players - team
To come here to Swansea and get a draw - I'm not happy with a draw

Your man is is way way too comfortable at such a young age.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #830 on: November 27, 2012, 04:42:49 PM »
I think it's all about allowing time for the team to learn, mature and become familiar with each other as players and human beings. The pressing game require camaraderie, collective awareness and intuition from every individual, if you see what I'm getting at? I remember when IFK Gothenburg won the UEFA-cup back in -82 (Beating newly crowned German champions Hamburg SV 4-0 on agg.). It was in no small part down to teams' ability to press all over the pitch, every player working their socks off for the next etc. That's why I fancy what Brendan's trying to do here. It's gonna take a while so I'm not surprised there are those gaps (I can see them too). Over time tho, I think the players will be able to stay concentrated for longer periods of the game  then they are capable of today (as it instantly result in those gaps).

Martin, I understand what you're trying to say and have no problem with your interpretation.
What I don't understand is that these are professionals, highly paid professionals. Passing, movement, closing down (man or space), jockey or tackle, working as a unit etc should all be things they understand how to do by now, at the age they are, and at the level they are at within their chosen vocation.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #831 on: November 28, 2012, 08:05:24 AM »
Martin, I understand what you're trying to say and have no problem with your interpretation.
What I don't understand is that these are professionals, highly paid professionals. Passing, movement, closing down (man or space), jockey or tackle, working as a unit etc should all be things they understand how to do by now, at the age they are, and at the level they are at within their chosen vocation.

I know, it's just that over the years I've come to appreciate the difference between "verstehen" and "begreifen", a distinction Karl Marx often used to differentiate between having formal knowledge (verstehen) and having arrived at a deeper intellectual and spiritual understanding of a context (begreifen).
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #832 on: November 28, 2012, 08:09:18 AM »
I don't expect us to be quite at the level of Rinus Michels total (pressing)
football experiment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj9kpoD0Wnk

 ;D

But I don't see enough team when I watch us play and I
mean team in the sense that be it attacking, defending or
pressing everyone is in it together, knows what they're doing
and it has a purpose. I mean passing the ball around is pointless
if it serves no purpose (teams just sit back and wait).

F*ck this fiction that BR invented a new way to play football,
I want to see a team that's looking for 3 points not content, I
don't want to hear the words fantastic (and the latest one terrific)
when we're 11th in the league. The message should be it's not
good enough, it's nowhere near good enough, we're not satisfied
with that point.

The post-match interview is not a neat and tidy self-serving PR package
summarising the game for the TV audience it's an opportunity to put
across a message:

I thought we were unlucky - you make your own luck
I thought we controlled the game in the first half - the game is 95 minutes
Young players - team
To come here to Swansea and get a draw - I'm not happy with a draw

Your man is is way way too comfortable at such a young age.

We don't really know that tho Ed, do we? I think it's a tad naïve to think we'd have a team up and running after a few months. Neither tho I find your comments that some of us think Brendan invented the feel is helping discussion.

In a way your post smacks of hypocrisy. Your hero if anyone excelled in the art of being content with a point.

If you were more balanced in your comments on Brendan and the team it would be easier to take what you say seriously. But no matter what you always seem to find a negative angle. Must be hard living like that. Fair enough under GH and Rafa where they had + 3 years to prove their incompetence, but this fella didn't even get a chance to fail before you were at his back. Tedious, really.
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #833 on: November 28, 2012, 10:54:15 AM »
Martin, I think there needs to be a rewind here. The truth of the matter with most on here is not:

1) If you're not positive about Rodgers in 90% of posts, then you don't want him here.

2) If you're finding something or things that you think aren't right, or that you agree with, then you don't want him here.

3) If you see things that you don't think are right or that you don't like about the way the manager operates or conducts himself with the media, then you don't want him here.

4) If any of the above apply then you are a disciple of Rafa Benitez.

5) If 4) applies then it follows automatically that you want Rodgers sacked and replaced with Chelsea's current manager.

Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #834 on: November 28, 2012, 11:29:18 AM »
I know, it's just that over the years I've come to appreciate the difference between "verstehen" and "begreifen", a distinction Karl Marx often used to differentiate between having formal knowledge (verstehen) and having arrived at a deeper intellectual and spiritual understanding of a context (begreifen).

My German is not what it might be ("Don't mention the war"  ;D) but my definition or the definition of 'know or knowing' that I was applying to the players, was not just understand or be able to explain the 'theory', but to put it into practice at a more than decent standard, understanding and knowing what you are doing at all stages, and for it to be a natural, rational, reasoned and obvious thing to do.

Does that make sense?

What Rodgers has not done is re-invent the wheel. He is asking the players to do things that should be natural, if not natural, then understood as components of a style of football.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #835 on: November 28, 2012, 12:34:48 PM »
My German is not what it might be ("Don't mention the war"  ;D) but my definition or the definition of 'know or knowing' that I was applying to the players, was not just understand or be able to explain the 'theory', but to put it into practice at a more than decent standard, understanding and knowing what you are doing at all stages, and for it to be a natural, rational, reasoned and obvious thing to do.

Does that make sense?

What Rodgers has not done is re-invent the wheel. He is asking the players to do things that should be natural, if not natural, then understood as components of a style of football.

It makes perfect sense as that was indeed the point I was trying to convey. I guess one could say there's a difference between understand something or grasp somewthing.

Yes, he's asking them to do what seems to be natural but it's also a case of a fair bunch of new players  (Borini, Sahin, Allen, Assaidi) mixed with a bunch of young and fairly unexperienced players (Suso, Sterling, Wisdom, Shelvey to some degree) and then there's the more senior players. From a group perspective there are many aspects that needs to klick before a more unanimous identity can be defined. I would say age is one such aspect, national identity and cultural background another.

I don't think it's because of sloppyness or low ambition, it's something else. I think the group struggle to stay focused for 90 minutes at this point. Evidently it manage 45 minutes and sometimes even 75. However, as the team gel, mature, get more experienced and confident the time during which the team can apperar and perform as an organic unit will increase. I honestly believe that.
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #836 on: November 28, 2012, 01:02:19 PM »
Martin, I think there needs to be a rewind here. The truth of the matter with most on here is not:

1) If you're not positive about Rodgers in 90% of posts, then you don't want him here.

2) If you're finding something or things that you think aren't right, or that you agree with, then you don't want him here.

3) If you see things that you don't think are right or that you don't like about the way the manager operates or conducts himself with the media, then you don't want him here.

4) If any of the above apply then you are a disciple of Rafa Benitez.

5) If 4) applies then it follows automatically that you want Rodgers sacked and replaced with Chelsea's current manager.

Boring, really.

I don't mind at all criticism of Brendan Rodgers, not at all. My gripes are with the constantly unbalanced comments that are made on here and that springs out of a discontent of Rafa's sacking some 30 months ago. Hell, sometimes I get the feeling that some posters would find problems with us beating the Manc's away 5-0 to secur no.19 because Rodgers chose to make that sub, or start with that line-up and formation or say this or that in the post-game PC.

It's actually hard to take seriously such one-sided criticism as it seem to spring from personal preferences rather than from how things play out in reality. I mean, just commenting on how the manager was quoted in a post-game PC with all the knowledge we have about how journo's twist and turn every word uttered says a lot really.

We're unbeaten in the last 8. We have lost, this season, to teams placed 1, 3 and 6 which equals as many defeats as the current leaders have. IF we win tonite we're 1 point behind Spurs. It is true that we have drawn more games then we all would've liked but a freak pass, a misplaced penalty call, a totally misplaced call by the linesman and a dubious off-side call potentially cost us 10 points. I'm not explaining away here, but that's the very very small margin between sitting 11th or 3rd. The only game where we were a bit fortunate to get a result this season was Chelsea away so it's not a case of my just pointing to the "facts" (there you go) that is in our favor.

Furthermore, in the early days of the campaign we conceded quite a lot of goals (10 in the opening 5 games). It wasn't before long until one posters on here from an elevated position could declare to the world that that was down to one thing and one thing only - the lack of experience and "tactical acumen" of our young manager. You'd think that such an all-knowing person would be willing to return in a more positive mode if improvement could be identified like if, lets say, we conceded only 6 from our last 8 games. But no, nothing of that.

It is on the basis of this and the fact that we're able to play entertaining footy for large portions of the game with a young and inexperienced side that I find it mindblowing that many of  the posters on here (not that there are that many of us really) never have one positive word to say about the achievements or aspirations of our manager, not one.

So you see Tes, it's not the criticism of the manager I find it hard to take, it's the malicious, yet totally uncalled for, attitude towards him that makes me sick. Just as the fact you constantly feel a need to ride out to their defence while at the same time saying you're not taking sides.
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Offline Edward224

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #837 on: November 28, 2012, 01:58:29 PM »
So you see Tes, it's not the criticism of the manager I find it hard to take, it's the malicious, yet totally uncalled for, attitude towards him that makes me sick. Just as the fact you constantly feel a need to ride out to their defence while at the same time saying you're not taking sides.

I am trying to say exactly this.

Dude is so malicious towards Brendan that one would think Brendan ran over Dude's pet.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #838 on: November 28, 2012, 02:32:36 PM »
We don't really know that tho Ed, do we? I think it's a tad naïve to think we'd have a team up and running after a few months. Neither tho I find your comments that some of us think Brendan invented the feel is helping discussion.
I think my point was that it's time to look beyond the
talk, talk, talk and examine what's happening on the
field of play week in week out.

All we seem to get in press conferences are:
The players have been fantastic since I came in here
Luis Suarez is a world-class player
Young players
Young Raheem...a 17 year old

After 13 games we're 11th, sandwiched between Fulham & Stoke, we've
beaten 3 teams in the Prem:

Norwich away 5-2, 13th
Reading at home 1-0 17th &
Wigan at home 3-0. 15th

Suarez scored 5 of those goals and there was 1 o.g..

Tonight we play Spurs, a good time to measure our progress
to date and no doubt you'll be on after the game to do just
that.

one would think Brendan ran over Dude's pet.
Or stole his rug  ;D

We're just old school LFC supporters and have standards.

Personally I don't like BRs defeatist attitude. An LFC
manager lying 11th in the table should convey his displeasure
with the situation more forcibly. The message is almost
we're lucky to have him as opposed to this is nowhere near
good enough.

Fulham, Swansea (besides the millions we gave them),
West Ham & West Brom have nowhere near our resources

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #839 on: November 28, 2012, 02:46:05 PM »
I think my point was that it's time to look beyond the
talk, talk, talk and examine what's happening on the
field of play week in week out.

All we seem to get in press conferences are:
The players have been fantastic since I came in here
Luis Suarez is a world-class player
Young players
Young Raheem...a 17 year old

After 13 games we're 11th, sandwiched between Fulham & Stoke, we've
beaten 3 teams in the Prem:

Norwich away 5-2, 13th
Reading at home 1-0 17th &
Wigan at home 3-0. 15th

Suarez scored 5 of those goals and there was 1 o.g..

I find it hard to understand how one could be so upset from what the manager say in the pre-/post-game conferences after just a couple of months, but each to his own.

Another way to look at it would be:

*8 games unbeaten.

*6 goals conceded in the last 8, 4 in the last 7.

*A poor pass, dubious peno, outrageous disallowance of goal in the derby, dubious off-side call last weekend is what potentially separates us from lying 3rd.

*We seem to get more people into the box for each game.

*We look like a very difficult side to beat having only lost to teams placed 1, 3 and 6.

*Back to back wins would put us within touching distance of 4th in just 4 days time.

* Teams are throwing away points everywhere meaning a good 2nd half of this season could change things around completely. In any case it's way way too early to write us off, or it ain't over an'all if you like.
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