October 16, 2019, 05:46:50 PM

Author Topic: Season 2012-2013  (Read 266695 times)

Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #120 on: August 19, 2012, 06:34:28 PM »
One decision I was a little baffled by yesterday was before West Brom took their first penalty. We were 1 nil down, a man down, in less than 30 seconds Long would have the opportunity to put them 2 nil up. But before the penalty was taken what did we do. And in fairness you can only lay the decision at the feet of the manager. We take off Stewart Downing (not a bad thing people would say) but we bring on Carragher. How did that make any sense whatsoever? Why did we not wait the 30 seconds it was going to take West Brom to take their penalty. At least then we would have known whether we were chasing a 1 or 2 goal game. What good was bringing on Carragher if Long had scored. Carraghers going to be no good for chasing a game, hes going to be no good if you want to risk leaving the defence a man shy to go in search of a win.

Carraghers one of the players I was talking about in my post above that has survived too many managerial culls. Its not his fault yesterday but whats he still doing there. Managers in the past have contributed to their own downfall by sticking by and playing players that just arent good enough. I just hope Rodgers can see the likes of Downings and Carraghers contributions for what they really are and they are not just being picked because who or what they are. I said before I thought Pacheco outshone most in preseason. Downing didnt. Yet Downing has had the opportunity to start most games hes been available for up to now. Pachecos chance seems to be gone. But why, is it because Downing cost us 20 million, is it because hes an English international on paper. Otherwise Im not sure why he deserves to be there over Pacheco. We hear the term clean slate used whenever a new managers in town but that always seems to be directed at the overpriced under-performing players who are given countless chances to shine. Players like Pacheco are rarely afforded one. You can argue that I dont see the players perform in training and while thats true I still get to see players like Downing generally fail to perform week in week out. Rodgers needs to make sure he doesnt get caught up in politics at the club if hes to make positive inroads on the season ahead. That means picking players based on how they perform in training and more so matchdays over anything else.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #121 on: August 19, 2012, 07:24:25 PM »
The Echo's take on Segura:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/08/19/pep-segura-quits-as-liverpool-fc-s-academy-technical-manager-100252-31655350/

I note the following quote regarding the promotion he was possibly in line for:

"However, those plans were shelved by the owners when Brendan Rodgers made it clear
that having total control would be key to him accepting the job."


Hmmm...

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #122 on: August 19, 2012, 08:00:50 PM »
Rodgers has to be given seasons to see if he can do anything with the club. Yesterday was much more to do with the decline and mismanagement of the club than it was necessarily about tactics and poor managerial decisions.

As a group of players this teams time together looks passed its best. There is a stale feel about the squad. We have underperformed for seasons now yet the make up of the team is still the same all be it with average players being added every window. Thats not to criticise the new players, they need to bed in and attempt to hit the ground running but it would be unfair to judge them on yesterday.

Its sad to watch but the decline has accelerated right in front of our eyes. Records are being broken at Liverpool each year but all of the wrong ones. Its being 70 years since we suffered an opening day result as bad as yesterday. Poor player purchasing doesnt help. Last years transfers have officially failed to deliver and in spectacular fashion so we are back to relying on what was already there plus our two new additions this summer.

Too many continually under-performing players have survived when managers have been culled.

Excellent summary Juan, and unfortunately what we feared has come to pass that the initial injection of funds designed to get us back into or at least challenging for the top four was trusted to Dalglish, and it was a one off injection of funds.
That not only has been wasted but the 'talent' it bought is weighing us down on the pitch and also financially on the payroll and balance sheet.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

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Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #123 on: August 20, 2012, 05:12:44 PM »
Tomkins latest article from the Liverpool site. He actually uses nearly every excuse in the book. He even credits Rodgers with Swansea's win yesterday. Im half surprised he doesnt suggest asking Swansea for a share of the 3 points.

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/tomkins-just-97-4-per-cent-left


Tomkins: Just 97.4 per cent left


Columnist Paul Tomkins assesses a disappointing first weekend and explains why Liverpool fans can approach the second with a lot of hope despite the West Brom defeat...

First of all, it's true to say that the opening weekend habitually springs surprise results. Teams, and individual players, are at different levels of fitness - with those at international tournaments not getting a consistent pre-season - and within a month or two the league settles down to something that more closely resembles the true strength of the teams.

As the statistician and author Graeme Riley noted on my site, Everton lost 4-1 at home to Spurs in 1985 and went on to win the league (not that Liverpool are expected to be in the running in 2012-13). It was also pointed out to me that the one side truly constructed by Brendan Rodgers actually won 5-0 away at QPR yesterday.

It's also true that Bill Shankly started his tenure with a 4-0 defeat, and Pep Guardiola lost his first La Liga game in charge of Barcelona to little Numancia. So the long-term picture doesn't always reflect the start.

(Note: I'm not saying it's therefore a good thing to start with a defeat; just that it doesn't always have much of a bearing. On the whole, then yes, the title winners will generally win more opening games than they lose, but that's because overall, they will win far more games than they lose. But teams regularly improve after poor or indifferent starts.)

"It's a marathon, not a sprint" is a cliché because it's true. The season is for Kiprotich, not Bolt.

It's also true that, up until the dismissal of Daniel Agger, the Reds were playing well, but with the familiar story of chances not being taken, and the opposition scoring out of the blue. I read that after 55 minutes, at which point Agger was sent off, Liverpool had completed 333 of 372 passes, compared to 135 of 183 by the home side, and also that Allen's passing rate in the first half was 97%. Rodgers' men were creating some clear cut chances, but they weren't putting them away.

Aside from Gera scoring with a quite brilliant and un-savable shot, it all seemed like a professional, controlled away performance. Luis Suarez was absolutely terrorising the Baggies' defence, but alas, kept narrowly missing the target. And in fairness to the home side, West Brom did look dangerous on the break, without really testing Reina.

What happened after Agger's dismissal was not pretty, but chasing the game when a man down on a scorching summer day was never going to be easy. The Reds got stretched at the back, and spaces were opening up, but you can't really judge a team too accurately when they're down to 10 men in those circumstances. West Brom used the numerical advantage well, it has to be said, but they were happy to play on the break.

Until the sending off, the Reds' pressing had been good - very fast and intense, although on a couple of occasions the defence looked too eager to instantly win the ball back rather than jockey. But Agger's red card seemed to knock the stuffing out of the players, and any hopes of a comeback were dashed by the second penalty award. (What is it with penalties at the Hawthorns? That's four conceded there in the past 18 months.)

I have to say that I thought the refereeing was incredibly inconsistent. I don't understand how the West Brom players could deliberately, and forcefully, foul their opponents without bookings - including two cynical examples of 'taking out' Suarez on the edge of their box - but every little slip or slightly late tackle by a man in a red shirt ended with a booking. There were several similar situations for both sides, where the away player got booked and the home one let off. The first penalty was for a foul that actually took place just outside the box. I've got no complaints with the second penalty decision, but at the other end, Martin Kelly was wrestled to the ground and nothing was given. These things happen, but it can affect results.


It will obviously take time for Brendan Rodgers to form a side that consistently fits his image, but any defeat hurts. Sometimes it smarts more on the opening day, as you've been looking forward to the game for months, and it's the only sample you can draw from (although we have had a taste in the Europa League, in which the Reds had been excellent at home to FC Gomel).

Despite the defeat, I thought Joe Allen looked very impressive in the first half, before the Reds were a man light. His control and passing were first-rate, and he exudes composure. Beside him, Lucas had performed a miracle just to be starting games so soon after his cruciate injury.

Fabio Borini had a quiet game against West Brom, but he's someone who can convert chances when they fall his way; at the Hawthorns the ball never did break his way, even when drifting infield to take up good central positions. His movement is very good, so he should find himself on the end of chances in future games.

The young Italian is a model professional, having come from a family of athletes for whom dedication was a byword. Carlo Ancelotti compared him with Filippo Inzaghi, so there's real potential there.

New winger Oussama Assaidi, as someone who on average scored a league goal every three games at Heerenveen, will also hopefully help add some cutting edge up front, although he, like Borini, may need time to settle. The Moroccan international looks an exciting talent, and someone who has been improving year on year, but he may have to start his Liverpool career as a sub, looking to make an impact.

It's been said that Liverpool desperately needed a good result against West Brom with such a tough run of games coming up, but as we saw last season, sometimes it's 'easier' to get results against the better teams, when the atmosphere lifts the players, and the expectation is a little less rampant.

To do well this season, Liverpool simply need to rack up a certain number of wins, and it doesn't really matter if it's against the 'easy' teams or the supposedly tougher ones; come May, if the points tally is healthy, then that's all that counts.

There will always be games that, at the end of any given season, are looked back on with a sense of "if only...", but sometimes putting in an incredible amount of effort in one game leaves less in the tank for the next one, no matter who the opposition is; and had things indeed been different, games that were won might instead have been lost.

In what is clearly another transitional season, as new players arrive and a new manager instils a new system of play, Liverpool will have their downs as well as ups, but hopefully enough of the latter to feel that, as the spring arrives, things are moving in the right direction.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #124 on: August 20, 2012, 05:41:39 PM »
Tomkins latest article from the Liverpool site. He actually uses nearly every excuse in the book. He even credits Rodgers with Swansea's win yesterday. Im half surprised he doesnt suggest asking Swansea for a share of the 3 points.
Agree, he's too compromised anyway, writing for the official website, hardly
objective. I found that article plain patronising. It'd be different if he was down
the training ground watching the team and came with some proper insight, but
he's seen the same game as the rest of us and we'll make up our own minds in
the months to come. In the meantime, i'm not bothered with the literary Prozac
which he peddles these days.  :)

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #125 on: August 20, 2012, 07:29:43 PM »
There are some that feel that saying anything that is not super smiley positive is not being a real fan. Pretending that everything is perfect when you can see that it isn't, but turning a blind eye anyway, at least to me, is wrong.

The official site is becoming a parody.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

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Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #126 on: August 20, 2012, 09:13:44 PM »
I have yet to be approached to write for the official site.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #127 on: August 20, 2012, 10:29:42 PM »
I have yet to be approached to write for the official site.

There's a surprise.  :D    Me too, I suspect the Royal Mail lost the letter.  :D
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #128 on: August 20, 2012, 10:36:09 PM »
I have yet to be approached to write for the official site.
I thought it would be beneath you after appearing on Oprah  ;D

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #129 on: August 20, 2012, 11:47:54 PM »
I thought it would be beneath you after appearing on Oprah  ;D

I though it was Grand Ole Opry, not Oprah.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #130 on: August 21, 2012, 12:30:49 AM »
 ;
Agree, he's too compromised anyway, writing for the official website, hardly
objective. I found that article plain patronising. It'd be different if he was down
the training ground watching the team and came with some proper insight, but
he's seen the same game as the rest of us and we'll make up our own minds in
the months to come. In the meantime, i'm not bothered with the literary Prozac
which he peddles these days.  :)

 ;D

His insight is based around seeing the best out of everything, telling us 150 what ifs and diluting statistics to paint a picture that never was. I used enjoy the odd article of his but now Ive had enough. Seeing that for years he has written copious amount of articles about how the stats say we are far better than the scoreline or Premier League points totals have suggested and how the future for the team is bright why dont we now take stock and judge whether his statistical genius and bright sided predictions from times gone by have lived up to that golden future he painted time and time again. The answer is No, from a team perspective we are actually worse off than hes ever predicted and we've never got to where he said we would be. The guys a glorified excuse maker whose now employed by the club to make excuses in a long winded, nicely written manner.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #131 on: August 21, 2012, 04:59:04 AM »
There's a surprise.    Me too, I suspect the Royal Mail lost the letter.

I thought it would be beneath you after appearing on Oprah

I though it was Grand Ole Opry, not Oprah.

that day, as we waited for our respective interviews,  for the official site Tomkins was endlessly waffling on.

I had made the simple mistake of asking him "how's things?"

it was more a greeting on my part, than a genuine question.

but Tomkins went on to tell me, in 180-page-report level detail, of how things were swimmingly delightfully positive.  He even pulled out graphs and percentage data, to highlight his points.   Apparently he had never had it so good.

I was delighted for him, enough to tell him to go and foxtrot himself.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #132 on: August 21, 2012, 09:32:08 AM »
Martin, Dude and I are of very similar ages and grew up in a time before the eighties changed everything. We're not interested in image but substance. We judge the book once we've read it.
Words are of little interest, it's actions that count. We're not the sort to be easily impressed and it's the club we're interested in, not any individual within the structure. Again, we didn't grow up in a time of celebrity, where that label gets applied far too easily and too losely.

Our club has been in a period of rapid decline and therefore we look at experience not potential as the way to halt that decline. We look for for someone with a proven record of success as it shows they have the knowledge required, and whilst any appointment carries a degree of risk, we see appointing an experience man as a way of minimising the risk. The time to appoint a younger man with potential is when the club has re-established itself in the top four and their is a solid base already in place for the novice to build on.

Rodgers may have been coaching in various capacities for 20 years, but being part of a coaching structure where you have limit responsibilities and are responsible for one part within the club as opposed to the whole thing is very different.
Football is littered with coaches and assistants who were revered for their ability as a coach or assistant but when they became the top man it all went wrong - Peter Taylor (Clough), Brian Kidd (Taggart, and now Mancini), Ray Harford (Dalglish at Blackburn) and to a lesser extent Roy Evans (manager of our all conquering reserves).

Rodgers longest managerial post is the two years at Swansea, Watford and Reading not working out too well for him. The irony is that Swansea may just have appointed a step up in Laudrup, who has a much longer managerial career than Rodgers. Also, Rodgers had good foundations to build on at Swansea, he didn't start from scratch and build them into the team we saw last season.

So not only is he starting from scratch with us, it is one of the toughest jobs their is in British football, maybe second only to the England job and in the context of our last three seasons and the less than stella running of the club over the last 20 years, it's become  even harder.

It would be a tough job for the most experienced of managers, the likes of Wenger and Taggart (from 10 years ago) would find it difficult, even with the experience they have to draw on. Insight and intelligence can get you so far, but experience and the knowledge gained through it, both good and bad, can not be beaten or worked around.

Rodgers is obviously a deep thinker, he's immersed himself in the game to a level a lot of other younger coaches haven't, but the thing he lacks over the likes of Ancelotti, is that he has no track record to prove that his theories actually translate in practice, and have been proven to work over a number of years.

Cheers for that Tes, it's highly appreciated. I see where you come from and in fact I agree with much more than I disagree with. However, I do think it is important that he tries to impose himself verbally during the initial months. To me it equals will to lead and stake out  vision and that's exactly what we missed for over 2 decades. I think his reaction to the WBA defeat was sound. I'm sure he hurt more than anyone else and he'll have the team well prepared for Sunday's game. I was a tad disappointed, as Dude said above, about how he managed the team during the game.

On another notei t was good, of course, to see the Mancs lose to an extremly impressive (first hour anyroad) Everton side. Surely this was their best season-opener since the 1920's? I think it was important they lost. Somtimes the top teams spur on each other running away early managing to avoid defeats week in and week out leaving teams like ourselves long distanced before the end of October. Hopefully the defeats to the Mancs, Spurs and ourselves is a trend that will strike the other predicted topteams and keep the race tighter this season while, at the same time, include more teams as we'll need another 3-4 months to fully gel.
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #133 on: August 21, 2012, 09:33:29 AM »
I have yet to be approached to write for the official site.

Would you believe me if I told you I was once picked as one of five columnists to write for the offal?
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #134 on: August 21, 2012, 09:36:33 AM »
There are some that feel that saying anything that is not super smiley positive is not being a real fan.

There's nothing I dislike as much as the real-fan-attitude among many LFC-fans. I agree with this. Mine being upset above was more my rejection of granting Brendan condescending nicknames already. Let him at least make a twit of himself before calling him it.
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.