October 17, 2019, 05:09:29 AM

Author Topic: Season 2012-2013  (Read 267409 times)

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #270 on: September 02, 2012, 06:57:37 PM »
Less convincing, imo, is this statement from BR:

"What has happened has happened, we'll reflect on it as a club and hopefully come January
and the next window we can transition the group that allows us to compete."


Very poor choice of words after 3 games and 5 signings.

I don't know mate, I'd rather he put it that way than trying to sell us the idea our squad is full of worldclass talent. I can see where you come from but I don't think it was that much of a fuzz to be perfectly honest.
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Offline barticus

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #271 on: September 02, 2012, 07:09:25 PM »
First 20 mins or so we were pretty good...as soon as they scored a goal we panicked...
first thoughts...
Rodgers has got rid of the wrong players...at the end of the last season there was talk of suarez, johnson and reina off....we should have done our utmost to get rid of the latter 2 especially...there were no doubt some suckers who would have paid top money, having said that whether we'd have asked for top money is another thing......reina has been accident prone for a long time, johnson is no defender and suarez needs the perfect foil for him to operate...when we're bottom half in january and some big club comes calling offering 15 mil then that will be another loss of money..
carroll to west ham for 17 mil...a loss of 18 mil...
adam to stoke ...a loss of 4 mil (at least)
aquilani to fioretina for 3/4 mil..a loss of 14 mil...
we've GIVEN away players of the calibre of maxi, bellamy and kuyt who would have been perfect for the system that rodgers wanted to play...kuyt has scored 6 goals in 7 games for fenerbahce...

i see that john henry was twittering away at his disappointment at us not getting dempsey...well if he can twitter he can sure as hell offer an extra 2 mil...
rodgers, ayre, winter and henry are all to blame for this debacle...and it could have been completely avoided...
amateurs all...



Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #272 on: September 02, 2012, 07:58:39 PM »
First 20 mins or so we were pretty good...as soon as they scored a goal we panicked...
first thoughts...
Rodgers has got rid of the wrong players...at the end of the last season there was talk of suarez, johnson and reina off....we should have done our utmost to get rid of the latter 2 especially...there were no doubt some suckers who would have paid top money, having said that whether we'd have asked for top money is another thing......reina has been accident prone for a long time, johnson is no defender and suarez needs the perfect foil for him to operate...when we're bottom half in january and some big club comes calling offering 15 mil then that will be another loss of money..
carroll to west ham for 17 mil...a loss of 18 mil...
adam to stoke ...a loss of 4 mil (at least)
aquilani to fioretina for 3/4 mil..a loss of 14 mil...
we've GIVEN away players of the calibre of maxi, bellamy and kuyt who would have been perfect for the system that rodgers wanted to play...kuyt has scored 6 goals in 7 games for fenerbahce...

i see that john henry was twittering away at his disappointment at us not getting dempsey...well if he can twitter he can sure as hell offer an extra 2 mil...
rodgers, ayre, winter and henry are all to blame for this debacle...and it could have been completely avoided...
amateurs all...

Hmm, not sure I agree with all of that Bart mate. As I gather Brendan was hardly responsible for the debacle on Friday. I think it's his job to evaluate, assess and recommend what players he ses fit or not. The main problem here seems to be the lack of internatl communication inside the club. It's obvious the one hand doesn't have a clue what the other's doing. I wouldn't go to hard on Henry just yet. I'm sure he realise he made a huge mistake handing Kenny one blank check after another and will now do his best to rectify those mistakes. They need to get footy ppl in the key positions. There's no manager in the world who could succeed at such a dysfunctional club as our's.

The one thing I agree on is they should've supported Brendan better and let Ayre get pissed off for being sidestepped. I can only hope they're learning as they go by because another fan upproar would disastrous for this club.
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #273 on: September 02, 2012, 08:18:28 PM »
Dalglish's spending spree is really killing us. It feels like Rodgers is being made to pay a heavier price for it than he should.

FSG seem to refuse to see their part in it. For example, they allowed a caretaker manager to decide how the Torres money was spent AND in the last few hours of the January window.
THEY chose Dalglish and allowed the different sums of money to be spent on the various players. In a normal setup the board will stay decide the value they place on a player and the manager has to work within and accept that valuation.
Their lack of knowledge is no excuse. They didn't suddenly realise in January 2011 they didn't  know enough, they knew from before they bought the club, but didn't equip themselves with the relevant team around them to make up for that lack of knowledge.
They obviously didn't know the criteria required for the CEO/MD position otherwise they wouldn't have 'settled for' Ayre. 

So back to Rodgers. Carroll didn't suit, that's Rodgers call. Just because the previous manager paid £35M for him is meaningless within the structure of a football team.
They had to ensure that funds were available for him to make some fundamental changes. He can do some wage bill trimming naturally through getting rid of players deemed surplus anyway.
They also chose to get rid of Dalglish after one season, instead of giving him a another season to get his players firing as a team. This Summer could have been Dalglish's penance, clearing out the surplus, getting down the wage bill he helped swell.
Instead, all this has been put on Rodgers' shoulders with little room for him to manoeuvre in terms of shaping the team the way he needed to.
So now we're stuck someway in between Dalglish's team and the basic structure of a team the way Rodgers wants it.

I think what he needs to do is understand that he can't change both the system and the players all in one season over two (possibly) windows.
Aim to get the team back to playing the way they were in Dalglish's half season. They showed they could and whilst some players have changed the bulk are still there. That is an achievable target to start with. Then as other players are sold to be replaced with the type Rodgers wants the transition moves on further.
He should have aimed for a process of evolution in the way we played, the rate of which is determined by the purchases and sales he can make in any given window. 

Hopefully he'll re-evaluate and make the neccessary changes to get the season going and not be too proud to see it is the thing that is necessary. It's not about being right or wrong in principal or theory, but about what's right for the team and club.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #274 on: September 02, 2012, 08:29:31 PM »
Henry and that damned twitter does no good for my blood pressure. I don't want the owner blabbing to the world. I want him to make sure that he communicates effectively with his appointed staff so everyone knew whether there was or wasn't the funds (whatever they may have been) available and that if they were that they were utilised and we may have had Dempsey providing a goal threat today.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #275 on: September 02, 2012, 09:08:18 PM »
According to Rodgers Carroll can be recalled in January.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #276 on: September 02, 2012, 10:04:56 PM »
If its Valero we need to get Reinas form back to what it was then we need to get it done and get him in. I fear its more than that.

Juan, I've no idea what the solution is, just a feeling this may be a part of it. Reina's never been the same keeper since Valero left and he's had an assortment of so-so coaches ever since. Not even sure who our current gk coach is.

It's something that could be done relatively cheaply and he is certainly Reina's favourite coach to work with. Likewise the strikers could benefit in the same way Torres did.

I just feel it has to be worth a try.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #277 on: September 02, 2012, 10:11:01 PM »
Same with Gerrard. Worthless and responsible for their first.
I dunno about that! Sure, he gave the ball away and yes it could be argued that he should
have done more to retrieve it but, I think it must be the case that Enrique was too far forward
on the left somewhere because the real problem occurred when Sahin and Allen got caught
flat and Skrtel was in no mans land after the guy drifted back from him. Agger was tied up with a
player in the centre and Johnson who had been legitimately forward in the attack was busting
a gut to get back.

I can't understand why Enrique was so far forward if we're attacking on the right. Anyway we had
enough numbers back to deal with it if the two midfielders had been more aware of what was happening
and 1 of them had dropped back to pick up Skrtel's man?

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #278 on: September 02, 2012, 10:35:18 PM »
Dalglish's spending spree is really killing us. It feels like Rodgers is being made to pay a heavier price for it than he should.

FSG seem to refuse to see their part in it. For example, they allowed a caretaker manager to decide how the Torres money was spent AND in the last few hours of the January window.
THEY chose Dalglish and allowed the different sums of money to be spent on the various players. In a normal setup the board will stay decide the value they place on a player and the manager has to work within and accept that valuation.
Their lack of knowledge is no excuse. They didn't suddenly realise in January 2011 they didn't  know enough, they knew from before they bought the club, but didn't equip themselves with the relevant team around them to make up for that lack of knowledge.
They obviously didn't know the criteria required for the CEO/MD position otherwise they wouldn't have 'settled for' Ayre. 

So back to Rodgers. Carroll didn't suit, that's Rodgers call. Just because the previous manager paid £35M for him is meaningless within the structure of a football team.
They had to ensure that funds were available for him to make some fundamental changes. He can do some wage bill trimming naturally through getting rid of players deemed surplus anyway.
They also chose to get rid of Dalglish after one season, instead of giving him a another season to get his players firing as a team. This Summer could have been Dalglish's penance, clearing out the surplus, getting down the wage bill he helped swell.
Instead, all this has been put on Rodgers' shoulders with little room for him to manoeuvre in terms of shaping the team the way he needed to.
So now we're stuck someway in between Dalglish's team and the basic structure of a team the way Rodgers wants it.

I think what he needs to do is understand that he can't change both the system and the players all in one season over two (possibly) windows.
Aim to get the team back to playing the way they were in Dalglish's half season. They showed they could and whilst some players have changed the bulk are still there. That is an achievable target to start with. Then as other players are sold to be replaced with the type Rodgers wants the transition moves on further.
He should have aimed for a process of evolution in the way we played, the rate of which is determined by the purchases and sales he can make in any given window. 

Hopefully he'll re-evaluate and make the neccessary changes to get the season going and not be too proud to see it is the thing that is necessary. It's not about being right or wrong in principal or theory, but about what's right for the team and club.

Now that's a joy to read and also comforting. I do realise I so want us to realise our potential as a club I seem to constantly forget how much work there is still to be done. I do think it would help Brendan's case if he could spell out his goal for this season in qualitative rather than quantitative terms.

Also Tes, you're dead right they made the calls but we also need to remember the context in which they were made. They took over a club in free fall with fans demonstrating every game. Appointing Kenny never really was a choice they made freely from an informed position but were more or less forced to in order to appease the fanbase. Next, Torres wants to leave. I always thought paying 35 million was crazy but I have also always respected the decisiveness with which he was brought in - LFC will not be a selling club!

Where I do think they got it wrong tho, was appointing Kenny on a permanent basis. The signs were there already during that half season he'd been out of the game too long and we seem not to remember our defeats to Blackpool, WBA and others where we came up emptyhanded and no answers when questions were being asked.

What bothers and makes me sick of worry now is that the transition of the squad and the club will be put on hold until the end of season. True, we may get a striker in, in January but I fear this season will be over and what remains will be a transporting distance till the start of the next season.

The good thing about the debacle last week, if there's any at all, is that the consequences of the ineffectiveness that seem to guide this club will become clear in the coming months and that radical changes for how this club operates both off and on the pitch will have to be made. I'm not talking about sacking this or that person but rather taking a hard look in the mirror, grow a pair and come out more determined. It seems by each month that goes by that this search for the "Liverpool Way" has more to do with off-pitch issues than purely footy matters.

Given the extremly unlucky fixture list, the dysfunction and lack of internal communication and an extremly thin squad I can see us in the bottom 7 come Christmas. I know it may sound a tad negative, but I honestly believe it'll get worse before it gets better and my goal now would be set to a top half finish. That would, given the circumstances, be an achievement of sorts.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 10:38:21 PM by Martinmarx »
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Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #279 on: September 02, 2012, 10:41:08 PM »
Depressing words but nevertheless they smack of truth. There's no consistency on any level at this club and there hasn't been for a very long time. My Manc mate is trying to understand what's happening to us but I am lost for words. How we managed to fail to get a striker in is bordering on negligence. As you say Juan, there's nowhere to look for improvement. I also think that without a strong centerforward 4-3-3 is the wrong formation fo this squad. As the lack of goals in this squad is so alarming we'll spent most of the season to avoid relegation. I know it may sound overdramatic but I really really see us struggle to win more than 10 games this season.  That means we need to draw as many games as possible relying on a strong defence.

I don't see a way out of this than to sit it out and hope we can restructure the club over the next 5 years. I feel sorry for Brendan as he'll never get a fair chance to prove his worth at this club. He must feel badly sodomized.

Relegation is dramatic but its funny you bring it up because in all of my years supporting Liverpool today for the first time I thought that relegation is no longer something that we can ignore. Dont get me wrong I dont see it happening this year or the next but year on year there is a marked decline, we are not scoring goals and we are not addressing our problems. Teams around us are strengthening. Our squad is far weaker than the one that finished the season in May. One or two injuries and who is to say we cant get caught up in a dog fight.

Rodgers transfer budget has been drastically cut as a result of our overspending since January 2011. But how do the owners expect the club to compete when every club around us is spending more money than us. We ended up about 7th or 8th in terms of spending this summer. So how are we expected to close that gap without backing the new manager?

Theres no way no sense and no point in fans looking for Rodgers to go. We could lose 10 games in a row and there would probably still be no point in looking for change. Changing managers again wont mask our problems. The more I think about our thin squad though the more I think Rodgers needs to shoulder a large degree of blame for the players we've been left with. He has actively shipped players out all summer. Our squad has been getting smaller and smaller. We can point to the players we missed on deadline day but Rodgers suggested we were only after a couple of targets. The likes of Dempsey and Sturridge would have certainly improved our options but it still would have left us with a hugely under strength squad. So really from a number of players perspective Rodgers has got his calculations wrong. And we are going to struggle hugely partly because of that.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #280 on: September 02, 2012, 10:45:01 PM »
Nobody Told Me
by John Lennon

Everybody's talking and no one says a word
Everybody's making love and no one really cares
There's Nazis in the bathroom just below the stairs
Always something happening and nothing going on
There's always something cooking and nothing in the pot
They're starving back in China so finish what you got

Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Strange days indeed -- strange days indeed

Everybody's runnin' and no one makes a move
Everyone's a winner and nothing left to lose
There's a little yellow idol to the north of Katmandu
Everybody's flying and no one leaves the ground
Everybody's crying and no one makes a sound
There's a place for us in the movies you just gotta lay around

Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Strange days indeed -- most peculiar, mama

Everybody's smoking and no one's getting high
Everybody's flying and never touch the sky
There's a UFO over New York and I ain't too surprised

Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Strange days indeed -- most peculiar, mama
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Juan

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #281 on: September 02, 2012, 10:46:41 PM »
C'mon, we expected this or at least it was a strong possibility i.e. a poor start.

It requires a bit of leadership, that's all. Tighten up at the back, bed in the new signings
and come up with a creative solution for scoring goals and not conceding any.


Ed thats an optimistic way of looking at things. I wish I could share that optimism but I fear things could get a whole lot worse before they get better.

Last year teams came to Anfield and figured out how to play us. After todays game I dont see why things should be any different this year.

We are toothless and our defence is a mess. The alarm bells are already ringing for me but this time I dont see how Rodgers is going to have enough quality players to work with to change things significantly.

We look in trouble imho.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #282 on: September 02, 2012, 10:53:11 PM »
I wasnt expecting a whole lot from this season but I still find myself majorly disappointed already.

Its hard to disagree with what Dude said in an earlier post, this club is on the verge of being done as a top side.

Juan, I didn't dare utter the word *relegation* in the close-season, but I danced around it. 

I feared Rodgers might well come unstuck by Christmas (mentioned in many of my previous posts).

If we play to our potential, we are 8th to 12th material.   If we cannot arrest a slump, however, which is often a trait of young inexperienced managers, then a relegation battle could be a reality.

If Rodgers cannot arrest this run of results, have no doubt, the yanks will dispense with him, sooner rather than later.  Remember, they have form when it comes to acting quickly and acting without much compassion.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Edward224

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #283 on: September 02, 2012, 10:59:05 PM »
Bring back Rafa hey Dude!!!!! The answer to all our problems!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2012-2013
« Reply #284 on: September 02, 2012, 11:01:11 PM »
Bring back Rafa hey Dude!!!!! The answer to all our problems!!!!!!!!!!!

well Edward909, my answers and analysis always made far more sense than yours.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.