Season 2012-2013

[Tes]

It took Ferguson 4 years before Manure won their first trophy - the FA Cup. Imagine if the Utd board had the mentality of some on this board. he would have been out after a season. Two at the most. Why are so many people so impatient?

Ray, you disappoint me with that comparison. If we had a manager with Taggart's pre-United record that would would be a basis for believing the man had something about him as a manager.

My cynicism says there is simply no comparison between Rodgers and Taggart or Rodgers' pre-Liverpool record and Taggart's pre-Manc one.

[Tes]

Yawn, you're not even good at it. Being a revisionist I mean.

And you would know.   

[Tes]

I would say that's about the only similarity, however abstract and superficial it may be, they have in common. Too bad that similarity didn't extend to repeating success abroad.

And that may have been the key, but crucial difference. How would McTaggart have faired in Italy in the 80s and beyond. That's a more true comparison, but one that can't accurately be made.

[Tes]

People seem to forget that we have more attempts on target than any other team in the league. It may not win you games (evidently),

Very Houllieresque.     People were saying the same thing about Dalglish last season, in fact he mentioned it a few times. Unfortunately there are no points awarded for that.

A year ago we couldn't score to save our lives. Fast forward 12 months and we're the 4th best scoring team in the leage. It's amazing we're trailing City in 2nd place by 14 points despite scoring one better than them while conceding only 10 more.

Those 10 goals have proved costly in terms of points. 3 less conceded against Arsenal, City and Everton, all away account for 6 points alone. I wonder how many more we'd have from the other 7 goals. I may have a go at that later on. 

Whilst we're comparing this to last - joint 3rd best defence last, 8th this.

Our season is all about extremes. Extreme of performance, results, goals scored and conceded. One needs altering whilst not interferring with the other. It's nearly the complete reverse of Dalglish last season, pivoting around the same league position.   

[Tes]

This argument that we should only sign a manager with a proven winning record is flawed because all managers start at the bottom in terms of experience and some develop quicker than others. It's not an exact science.

That can be offered as a reason equally for and against. The rate of development and the standard reached then decides which column it belongs in. On one hand it may be proven to be flawed on the other it confirms it to be right.

AVB and most others before did fail at Chelsea, but as you say, he's doing a good job at Spurs. Again, he's not a good example to use, his previous record suggests he's somewhat ahead of Rodgers, both in the curve of development and grounds for belief.

[Tes]

Competition in Scotland is hardly comparable to England. And let's not forget his Aberdeen side were humbled 4-0 by Liverpool in Nov 1980. And if he had such a good track record why did it take 4 years to get his first trophy? Surely a better manager at the time would have turned things around much quicker.

Ray, you're correct to a degree, but Aberdeen where part of that poor competition, whereas Rangers and Celtic where the other end of the scale and it was at that other end that Taggart was trying to compete. Similarly in Spain, with Real and Barca, to a lesser degree here. City and Chelsea have the mega bucks backer and United have the money making machine, honed and tuned throughout the Premiership era. The rest left to fight it out amongst themselves.

Also, Taggart joined Aberdeen in '78, only 11 years after Celtic had become the first British team to win the European Cup, therefore maybe not quite as weak as would appear. Rangers had won the Cup Winners Cup (same trophy Taggart won) in 1972 and had reached the final in 1967. Scottish clubs in general had a decent record in Europe during the 70s and 80s.
Also in the 70s, 80s and 90s (less so) the English Div 1 was full of quality Scottish players, all who had started their careers up there, and Scotland had a far better record of World Cup qualification from '74-'90.

As for turning it around, the Mancs were in a worse state than we are when he joined. He joined them in 86, and they hadn't challenged for the league in any serious way under Docherty, Sexton or Atkinson. They'd been relegated in '74, returning in '76 and they did finish 2nd in 1980 and 4th in 1986, but were only a Cup team.

[Ageing Stick Insect]

I think that, once again, demonstrates your wilful ignorance
on the matter a) Ferguson broke the 15 year Celtic/Rangers stranglehold
on the Scottish league and ended a 25 year wait for the title at
Aberdeen.

He may have succeeded with Aberdeen but he came very close to being sacked at Manure. If he had he may well have sunk without trace. There was a huge element of luck in him staying because Utd had a lucky break enabling them to win the Cup in '90.

b) of course beating Bayern Munich and Real Madrid in the
final en route to the European Cup Winners cup was a minor achievement.

Is that the equivalent of the much derided Europa League. Okay so he won that 5 years after arriving. So he's granted all those years but you won't give our manager a single season. I'm speechless!

I think the point that you miss is likelihood in terms of success at a big club.
You're not wasting your time, it's just that your argument is weak. I'm
in camp Ed btw.

Ed, you're just not giving him a chance. That is so unlike a true Liverpool supporter. He's got us playing some brilliant football. We're just conceding too many goals. Do you honestly think it's beyond him to tighten things up at the back? My argument isn't weak. It's just that I'm trying to convince people whose minds are already made up so it's an argument I can never win.

Incidentally, this is taken from a site detailing his record at the club. Ferguson's first season...

United finished 11th in the division, a massive 30 points behind champions Everton and were knocked out of the FA Cup at home to eventual winners Coventry City.

Chances are Liverpool will finish higher than 11th is Rogers first season.

[Ageing Stick Insect]

Ray, you disappoint me with that comparison. If we had a manager with Taggart's pre-United record that would would be a basis for believing the man had something about him as a manager.

My cynicism says there is simply no comparison between Rodgers and Taggart or Rodgers' pre-Liverpool record and Taggart's pre-Manc one.

You disappoint me Tes. We also had a manager who had an impressive record before joining us. Did he win us the title? No. What went on before might be a guide but there are no hard and fast rules.

[Ageing Stick Insect]

As for turning it around, the Mancs were in a worse state than we are when he joined. He joined them in 86, and they hadn't challenged for the league in any serious way under Docherty, Sexton or Atkinson. They'd been relegated in '74, returning in '76 and they did finish 2nd in 1980 and 4th in 1986, but were only a Cup team.

Then given we're in a better position than Manure back then Rogers could well succeed at Anfield were so many others failed. Look at Bob Paisley's record. Who would have thought it could better Shankly's? No-one outside Anfield had ever heard of him. Everyone thought we had a great chance of the league with Rafa. It never happened for whatever reason.

I really feel disappointed I have to defend a Liverpool manager to Liverpool supporters. I've said all I'm going to on this because so many minds are already made up. Those of you in the anti camp can get on pulling Rogers apart for every mistake made on the pitch. Those of us who believe in him will give him time and will take the rough with the smooth.

[Tes]

He's got us playing some brilliant football. We're just conceding too many goals. Do you honestly think it's beyond him to tighten things up at the back?

Ray, I don't see any 'just' in conceding too many goals. I realise we all see football differently, but defending is 50% of the overall equation.

You ask if it's beyond him. That I don't know and can't and won't judge until I see any evidence of him attempting it. We're as open now as we were on the first day of the season. WBA gave us a sample of that.
We're looking for progress, that's what this season is about. A higher finish in the league, qualification for Europe (like last season) and progress and improvement in playing style (hopefully) and results (definately).

Whilst we're scoring more (with that I'm happy), we've regressed defensively by as much as we've improved in scoring goals. Or rather, and this is my big worry overall, Suarez has become prolific this season, where he was more profligate last season. The one has balanced out the other.
What happens if the frofligate Suarez returns for the rest of this season or starts off like that next?
That can easily happen. Strikers are known for it, and whilst Sturridge is here it gives more hope of the effect being lessoned, until we learn to defend we're simply going to be consistently inconsistent.

I don't see a sign of an attempted improvement or that the manager has identified it as a problem.
For example, look how he talks about possession. "Teams that average 79% of possession win games". Fine.
However, it's what we do with our 79% in comparison with what the opposition do with their 21%. If we don't score with our 79% we need to be able to defend when they have the ball for 21%.
Possession alone isn't enough. You have to defend both with and without the ball, and you can't defend with possession as your only defensive plan.

As for minds made up. I'm not sure what you can mean. I base my opinion on what I'm seeing. If our defending improves and we concede less and drop fewer points, whilst continuing to score more regularly than last season, my opinion will change because what I'm seeing has changed. Ergo my opinion is based on what I'm seeing and not seeing.

Personally I couldn't give a monkey's whether it's Rodgers' name or anybody else's on the door of the manager's office. All I want is for whoever that man may be, to do the neccesary for the club, and conduct himself appropriately as manager of LFC.
Now as far as belief goes, and that's a different thing to my opinion, at last for me, I have nothing to base belief on, as yet. I make a point of putting as yet, because if things change, and I'm hoping they will, and for the better, then there will be something to base belief upon.
   

[the dude abides]

Brendan's got us playing some brilliant football. We're just conceding too many goals.

aye, Harold Shipman would have been a great doctor, if he hadn;t been a serial killer.

[Tes]

I really feel disappointed I have to defend a Liverpool manager to Liverpool supporters. I've said all I'm going to on this because so many minds are already made up. Those of you in the anti camp can get on pulling Rogers apart for every mistake made on the pitch. Those of us who believe in him will give him time and will take the rough with the smooth.

You keep saying 'minds made up' as though it's a fact. It's not, it's just your opinion. This is what I don't understand. There's no camps, or at least I haven't made a conscious decision to align myself with some group or other.

What I find interesting, is 'those of us', just to keep the 'camp' thing running, who as yet aren't as impressed with Rodgers as 'others of us' don't mind either way that not everyone sees things the same way as we do. We don't question your support, even though you seem satisfied with our position and seem much more easily able to overlook some things in order to accentuate other things. We don't accuse you of accepting mediocrity, whilst we claim to want much more for our club than 'you lot' do. (Jeez, this segregating nonsense is getting tedious). On the other hand, we're getting told we're wrong, our minds keep being attempted to be altered, our opinions changed to suit yours, in other words, "we're wrong, your right, so we need to change our opinions accordingly".
And then there's the little barbs and digs aswell, just like the one you threw in, Ray.

The reason you find it easier to 'take the rough with the smooth' and hence feel more able 'to give him time' is that as individuals you have the belief in him. What you base that on is your own personal reasoning. It's exactly the same thing that those of who aren't yet sold on him do. We have our own personal reasoning that doesn't produce belief.

Belief is one thing. Blind hope another.

It's a bit like religion. Some believe without the need of proof or evidence, others can't because of that same absence.

[the dude abides]

It's at times like this how I wish Anfieldroad.com forum had an ignore feature.

Every other forum has one - why not this one!!

I loved the ignore button - used to have it  on another forum I had.

but since there are only three of you, why don;t you take your worship to email or skype, or summat.   

like I mean, its not like  the three of you are here for any discussion - so why not create a room on a sub-forum...something like that, where worship can proceed, undisturbed.

[Tes]

aye, Harold Shipman would have been a great doctor, if he hadn;t been a serial killer.

I shouldn't have laughed but I did.

It's a simple case of you can't have the whole until you have both halves.

[Ed]

Ed, you're just not giving him a chance. That is so unlike a true Liverpool supporter.

Dunno, imo his latest Press Conference was impenetrable gobbledygook

"The squad got to two cup finals last season but it was broken up.
Players left. I moved some on. Last year the Carling Cup was a clear
priority for Liverpool. For me, it couldn't have been. I didn't have the
depth of squad. As much as I wanted it to be, I never felt it was going
to be that sort of season unless we could get the reinforcements. This
has been a great learning curve and we need to keep building the group."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/feb/20/liverpool-zenit-st-petersburg-brendan-rodgers

I seriously have no idea what he's on about.

Just an embarassment ahead of an important European tie.