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Author Topic: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez  (Read 19365 times)

Offline Tes

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2013, 05:51:56 PM »
You'll be please to know Dude that I have actually created a forum for general football supporters to come into.

But I won't break the rules and post a link to it as that is wrong.

You'd love the ignore feature and so would I.

You think too highly of yourself and your opinions if you think I or Martin were or are orchestrating a campaign to isolate and silence you. Quite frankly I have too much to do in my life to do that.


We are not isolated here.

As far as I can see for the past few months the regular posters have been you, Tes, Barticus, Ed, Martin, Ray and myself. I see that as 4 against 3. So really isolation..............right.

I don't worship Rodgers at all. I am just like 99.9% of Liverpool supporters who actually give him a chance......but hey ho call it what you like.

I gave my written response to what is Rodgers ideals in the thread regarding that on this forum if you care to look.

Dude, Ed, Barticus and I all have differing variations on our opinions, but you choose not to see the diffrences. We're just all the same. If things were as good as you state why is there always a census during the matches? Why would you and Martin make the same observations as Ed, Dude, Bart and I, or why would we four make the same observations as you two? It's only afterwards, inbetween games that suddenly the tack changes.
Highlighting problems, areas that need improvement, and anything else that doesn't scream of pyschophantic reverance is not negative, neither is it not supporting or hoping the manager fails. Turning a blind eye does the chances of improvement and future success no favours.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Ed

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2013, 06:04:43 PM »
Vocal minority like at all away games.
Oh my mistake, in fact they're probably not real fans like you,
the type of fan who shares the views of the vocal minority
of Chelsea away fans.

Offline Tes

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2013, 06:06:40 PM »
But my point stands to what I have said above. You are drinking in what Dude is telling you. In my opinion and in the last couple of months I have noticed a more cynical tone in your posts and that was there prior to that.

Way to go, Edward. I don't need Dude telling me anything, thanks all the same. As for cynical, if you want cynical I can do cynical, but I certainly haven't been in the least bit.
What I'm feeling is frustration at seeing zero evidence of certain things that need to change. Maybe you think it's fine to keep shooting ourselves in the foot defensively. I don't, never have and never will, irrespective of who's in the dugout.

Just because we would have taken a point before the games at Everton, Arsenal and City doesn't mean we should be satisfied with one, if during the game we put ourselves in the position for all 3, especially when we throw our advantage away cheaply.

Against Zenith we did superbly to score three at home, but again, we'd put ourselves in an impossible position. There may be individual mistakes but if you look at the bigger pitch, the overall situation rather than looking at it in a narrow, microscopic way, our defensive setup and positioning made those individual errors more damaging.

Individual errors happen throughout the game, but certain systems reduce the chance of the problem being exasperated.
Read Sacchi and Rinus Michels thoughts on how to provide contingency against individual mistakes.
 
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2013, 08:39:09 PM »
Dude, Ed, Barticus and I all have differing variations on our opinions, but you choose not to see the differences.

exactly.

we may agree on a lot of things.  But there are some subtle differences.  Tes wanted rid of Parry (I did not).  I want Rafa back (Tes does not).  There are other differences too.  But Martin and Edward refuse to see any differences.

It is pretty immature.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2013, 08:42:00 PM »
but because the rest of us are adults and able to debate things, thus there is no major problems. 

Indeed, I enjoy reading different perspectives.  It helps broaden my thinking.  And over time, we often all come to a shared conclusion.  Some times my mind gets changed, to some extent.  And I imagine the opposite is sometimes true as well.

but none of us (bart, ed, tes or me) through the superfan argument at each other.....nor accuse each other of being negative, etc.


In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2013, 08:50:19 PM »
You'll be please to know Dude that I have actually created a forum for general football supporters to come into.

But I won't break the rules and post a link to it as that is wrong.

You'd love the ignore feature and so would I.

You think too highly of yourself and your opinions if you think I or Martin were or are orchestrating a campaign to isolate and silence you. Quite frankly I have too much to do in my life to do that.


We are not isolated here.

As far as I can see for the past few months the regular posters have been you, Tes, Barticus, Ed, Martin, Ray and myself. I see that as 4 against 3. So really isolation..............right.

I don't worship Rodgers at all. I am just like 99.9% of Liverpool supporters who actually give him a chance......but hey ho call it what you like.

I gave my written response to what is Rodgers ideals in the thread regarding that on this forum if you care to look.

edward, my feeling is that you and i, despite our opinions, could enjoy a beer.  I think you have got a lot more reasonable these past few months.....much more mature in forum debate.

if you and martin would just stop relying on each other, as a crutch, and instead more fully engage with the rest of us.....would help things.  It shouldn't be as if the pair of you are like Butch and Sundance, riding into town, looking for the bad guys.

I know you think rodgers needs more time and should be given a chance.  But despite all the resources he has (compare our wages and transfer budget with everton, swansea and wba), we are out of all cups by February (going out to weak opposition).  And 4th place is gone too.  This could be our worst ever premiership season (i.e. our worst season in over 20 years).

Will Rodgers survive come May.  I suspect he will....because our owners will believe his BS and blarney....and our owners do not have the first idea about the club and where it's standing should be, in the game.

An IGNORE button would be good.  But even better, if we both could discuss the issues - without superfan-dom and negativity, being used as weapons.





In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Ed

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2013, 09:04:03 PM »
Will Rodgers survive come May.  I suspect he will...
No doubt in my mind he'll be here next season.

Still, there should be enough evidence from his first season
to judge his pedigree and set expectations accordingly.

Anyway, Spurs is a good test.

Offline Tes

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2013, 10:36:54 PM »
No doubt in my mind he'll be here next season.

Still, there should be enough evidence from his first season
to judge his pedigree and set expectations accordingly.

Anyway, Spurs is a good test.

And Everton.

Whilst it's great beating teams we should beat, and that's a complaint we've had for a few seasons, so there's progress on that requirement, we've yet to beat either a direct rival for 5th (6th if the FA Cup permutations work in our favour) or a team in or that has been in the top four, something we've always been able to do, so like it or lump it, that's regression on that requirement.

Likewise a step forward and backwards where goals for and against are concerned.

Question is do we want to be Keegan's Newcastle mk2 / Arsenal lite, or do we actually want to win things?

Cynical, no, just grounded and prepared to face the facts head on.

Let the abuse commence.   
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Offline Edward224

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2013, 10:44:45 PM »
Thing is you expect to see all of this happen in the first year. I don't.

No abuse about to commence at all. I just feel it takes longer than 1 season to see the fruits of a plan put together.

I see a gradual process with improvement year in year out. Only when we reach a plateau and keep making the same mistakes again and again, will in my mind questions need to be asked.

Offline Tes

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2013, 11:20:46 PM »
Thing is you expect to see all of this happen in the first year. I don't.

No abuse about to commence at all. I just feel it takes longer than 1 season to see the fruits of a plan put together.

I see a gradual process with improvement year in year out. Only when we reach a plateau and keep making the same mistakes again and again, will in my mind questions need to be asked.

Counts to 10. No I don't. Edward, do me a favour, quite telling me what I think, what I do and don't want.

What I hope to see is when there is such an obvious problem that something is done to address it. As I wrote yesterday but it obviously needs repeating again, I don't expect our defence to turn into Geroge Graham's back five or our whole team defensive shape to repeat the feat of the 1978/79 team, but I do expect to see something. Even Wigan yesterday, as poor as they were, got in behind and through too easily.
In the first minute we nearly conceded and it was only thanks to Kone having three left feet that we didn't, but the defending from the team, not the defense in isolation was poor, as it was at various times yesterday.

Hell, I'm sick of writing it and a 100 times more sick of seeing it. I'd rather be enjoying the way the coaching staff have started to address the issue but it's the most common complaint I've read on the Swansea forums too, aswell as our own.
The absolute most I expected from the entire season was to see the philosophy start to take shape in a way that balanced out requirements at both ends of the field, and as far as what the season brought that we would qualify for Europe. How? Well through the league was preferable as that would be a huge indicator of progress in the mainstay of a season, but I'd be happy with through a cup competition.
I'm a bit old fashioned there you see. I like winning trophies, irrespective of what they are. For me a trophy is a trophy. I don't get all picky placing one trophy over another.
If the League Cup (Milk Cup at the time) was good enough for Bob Paisley it sure as Hell is good enough for me. 

I understand your point about gradual progress and I share it with you, as that is the most likely way for success to be maintained if it's built on a solid, sustainable base, but we have to also consider  the bigger picture of FFP and what effect or not (though I'm not convinced by it at all, we can't be complacent all the same) that will have.
Call me cynical, but if it's enforced it sees the door slammed on another City/Chelsea situation, therefore reinforcing the status quo unless the wheels come off dramatically at one or two of City, United or Chelsea.
If it's not enforced the status quo remains of the team with the fattest wallet most likely wins the most often.

So you see gradual progress, depending on how gradual, and that's the crux of the matter, could see us on the outside once the FFP door is properly shut.   
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2013, 09:21:50 AM »
Thing is you expect to see all of this happen in the first year. I don't.

No abuse about to commence at all. I just feel it takes longer than 1 season to see the fruits of a plan put together.

I see a gradual process with improvement year in year out. Only when we reach a plateau and keep making the same mistakes again and again, will in my mind questions need to be asked.

Likewise indeed. This is exactly how I feel as well. A year ago we couldn't score to save our lifes. Fast forward 12 months and we're the 3rd best scoring side in the league that with 10 games remaining having won more games with 3 or more since the 87/88 season.

2 and a half years ago the club was on the brink of administration. The continuous drain of knowledgeable footy people like Parry have gone (no thank yous Rafa). New owners with, admittedly, limited knowledge and experience in this game. In steps a young and inexperienced manager who's having us play better footy than we have in ages, a manager who, and very much unlike his predecessors dating back to GH, fixes the lesser-team banana skin in less than 6 months. A manager who gets our quality players to commit to the cause. A manager who brings in top talent that seems to hit the ground running unlike how it's been.

He haven't managed to sort out the defence as of yet tho. But maybe there's just so much you can do inside 3 quarters of a season? I'm just so happy the dull, depressing, life-consuming performances of GH and Rafa - where you could tell after 20-25 we wouldn't score - seems to be a thing of the past.

It is my utter conviction that in 2 transfer windows time we'll have a side in place making the world wonder if those years outside the top 4 was just a bad dream. No doubt about that whatsoever.

Oh, and I don't think Edward told you what you think in his post. He may have assumed things which, in my book, is an all together different matter.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 09:22:57 AM by Martinmarx »
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Offline Ed

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2013, 06:32:31 PM »
Thing is you expect to see all of this happen in the first year. I don't.

No abuse about to commence at all. I just feel it takes longer than 1 season to see the fruits of a plan put together.

I see a gradual process with improvement year in year out. Only when we reach a plateau and keep making the same mistakes again and again, will in my mind questions need to be asked.
Thing is you have very little credibility with respect to your judgement
on this forum and a track record of blowing with the prevailing wind.

The point you miss is that some aspects, traits of a manager change and
others don't. We look at the entire picture and speaking for myself, to date,
I remain resolutely unimpressed by his performance as manager of this club,
but will defer judgement on his suitability 'til the end of the season (even if I
don't particularly warm to his personality).

Before you begin to eulogise non-achievement, take Laudrup as an example,
comes into a club in a foreign league which has sold two of its best midfielders.
With a minimum of fuss, he guides them to the Carling Cup and they're currently
two points behind us in the league.

So do me a favour and quit the wise buddha act, we've seen in reference
to Henderson, Reina & Chang just how wrong your predictions usually are and
the depth of your patience really is.

Offline Tes

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2013, 12:46:09 AM »
Oh, and I don't think Edward told you what you think in his post. He may have assumed things which, in my book, is an all together different matter.

As we sing from different hymn sheets I'll presume we read from different books, and leave it at that.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

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Offline Edward224

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2013, 09:44:39 AM »
It's quite clear you expect improvement in all areas within 12 months from what I see of your posts.

As the link I provided in the season 12/13 thread showed there is a case for the defence. I would appreciate your feedback on that.

Offline Tes

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Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2013, 03:01:33 PM »
It's quite clear you expect improvement in all areas within 12 months from what I see of your posts.

As the link I provided in the season 12/13 thread showed there is a case for the defence. I would appreciate your feedback on that.

Simply stating we've conceded x fewer or more doesn't tell the story. I've stated times many why conceding goals in pairs on so many occasions has been problematical. Endless clean sheets, I don't expect, some, note I wrote some, not complete, or total, or massive, some improvement is what I expect.
I see no worth in not balancing the improvement between defence and attack. Whilst it's great to have Suarez scoring more goals, but we haven't improved our ability to spread the goals around the team more (but hey, what the, I'll conveniently overlook that point aswell), it's self defeating and a bit soul destroying if you can't defend a lead you've created and see out a game, especially two goal leads.

Actually watching the game unfold, watching the defensive setup, and scratching below the surface of simply stating we've only conceded 'two more goals' in a set period of the author's selection is not seeing a bigger picture. I could dredge up a few figures to prove a different argument but I'm growing tired of repeating myself and what feels like a game of back and forth tit for tat..

If the defensive aspect is taking/ will take longer to learn then why not lessen the pace of change, or change at a lesser rate from the start, increasing the pace as the basics are understood and mastered. Rodgers himself stated he changed things too quickly at Reading and Watford. Why not go for evolution not revolution, limiting the problems caused by major change.

I just prefer to look at the whole thing in it's entirety, not pick out a few highlights, whilst ignoring things less favourable. Ignoring the mistakes you make even though you may have won is not the way to achieve long term and sustainable and sustained improvement.

Anyway I'm tired of you two just not accepting that some of us see things differently, not because we've got a point to prove or a forecast to try to get right, or that there's a position we refuse to take for the sake of it. In fact mine, Dude's and Ed's positions and views on things all differ, but as we're not throwing a street party in honour of Brendan, and aren't prepared to just see the good but prefer to see everything, we're all just lumped in as 'haters'. Unlike Martin's constant referal to Chelsea's manager (why he does it, I still don't see, but what the Hell), there's no personal aspect against Mr Brendan Rodgers. Whatever the name of the manager, is immaterial as you would have seen when Benitez was manager here.
And whilst I enjoy the more positive style and Luis' increased proficiency in front of goal, I refuse to ignore other aspects less favourable. Simple really.

And Edward, define 'all areas' for me. Spell it out, area by area and then I'll tell you what my expectations actually where/are.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.