2013-2014 Season

[Juan]

Given the start he's had with us it's
probably best to keep the pressure off him and give him some space to get
back on track. I think it's important that he gets the opportunity (on merit) to
show us what he can do, that we're a bit patient there.

To answer your question, I think what we saw at Swansea was a player
who'd quietly, under the radar, been allowed to develop (grow up with) an
evolving system which had reached a certain point of maturity - his comfort
zone. The switch to the big time (pressure/expectation) and the fact that he
was now playing with a group of players learning the system probably threw
him a bit and the injury to his shoulder hardly helped. It may be the case that
further down the line when more of the pieces are in place that there is a more
natural role for him in the team. I'd be waiting for him to be consistently coming
off the bench & making a difference to games (as opposed to making up the
numbers) before thinking of him in terms of first 11 though.

I think all of that's fair in the case of Allen. I suspect Rodgers hasnt written him off just yet. I'm not sure he will be afforded a gentle reintegration into the first team. I dont see him starting any games but thats just because hes down the pecking order but if Rodgers feels hes fit enough I think he will be thrown straight back in when necessary. Hes definitely better than what we've seen so far and I hope he isn't out of his depth. The fact that he was one of Rodgers key players at Swansea I think he will be afforded time. But by time I mean probably until the end of the season. If he hasnt shown at least some promise by then he could very well be shown the door.

[Juan]

It's hard to know exactly what sort of player he is and whether or how he would fit in to the midfield that Rodgers surely has plans for. I can't see that the way the midfield is at the moment is how Rogers wants it be. At least I'd hope not.

I suppose we just havent seen enough of him and what we have seen didnt live up to what had been expected. Whatever the reasons behind his poor form to date have to be put to one side and he can be afforded a clean slate. As I said in my previous post though I dont think he will get as long to prove himself this time around. If by the summer its the same story and we still havent been convinced I think then Rodgers will sell. Whatever anybody thinks of Rodgers they have to admit he isn't afraid to admit he made a mistake with a player. He has shipped Borini out pretty quickly and and anybody not consistently performing will probably suffer the same fate. 

[Juan]

My presumption is that a young, technical, physical, possession oriented midfield is
the aim.

                Lucas

Henderson          Allen

But then where does Coutinho fit in, I mean I could switch
that round to

Henderson       Lucas

             Coutinho

Obviously I've left Gerrard out to have a look. I agree totally with you
Tes on the difficulty of nailing down the single attribute which justifies
Allen's claim on a first 11 spot. It's easy with Lucas, he destroys the play
or Henderson, he has the energy. It seems and I don't mean to do him
down that Allen can pick a pass and retain possession. Thing is both
Lucas & Henderson can also do that and they are both more physical
than Allen.

Hence I don't see him as starting 11 in the short term and would think that he'd
have to develop something extra e.g. neither Henderson or Lucas are great at
scoring goals, but neither is Allen. I expect Henderson to be working on that side of
his game this season, so I think Allen is up against it but competition is healthy.

Although Allen isnt going to be a starter hes probably lucky hes vying for the one position that nobody is excelling in at the moment. If he stands any chance of getting game time its most likely going to happen in the centre of midfield. He has been mooted as a potential number 10 but I'm not sure he has the attributes for that position. At Swansea he was known for retaining possession but from what I have seen from his early days at the club just because he can retain possession doesnt necessarily mean he has an eye for a pass. I'm not saying he doesnt but he has yet to prove he does. Its one thing increasing your passing percentages by passing sideways and backwards which I found Allen seemed to do alot early on for us but its another thing to split defences which I havent witnessed yet.

As I was alluding to the centre of the park should be up for grabs. Gerrard is getting all of the plaudits for England at the moment but hes been miles off the pace for us so far this season. IF he continues as is he cant be guaranteed a first 11 spot anymore because we are being over run in midfield. Thats not to say his form wont improve. Lucas in my opinion has been better than Gerrard this season but only just. He needs to up his level too or he also cant be guaranteed a first team place. Henderson has being playing well, out of position. I have problems with his consistency and technical ability. I think he still needs to prove both. Saying that hes one of the most improved performers so far this season and realistically he should be the first name on the team sheet for the centre of the park right now when hes not needed elsewhere. So if Allen can come back fighting theres no reason he cant figure this season. Hes lucky hes not a centre back or forward because he'd probably be with Borini at Sunderland by now if he were.

[Martinmarx]

Team vs. Newcastle:

-------------------Mignolet----------------------

-------------Toure---Skrtel---Sakho-----------

Johnson----Henderson----Gerrard--Cissokho
 
---------------------Moses---------------------

------------Suarez-------- Sturridge-----------

Lucas and Enrique fail to make the bench for different reasons.

God team I say.

Come on you redmen!!!

[barticus]

Let's see if we've got the mental toughness now...good goal from Cabaye...but wtf was mignolet doing? The Newcastle defence are a joke, we should be putting these chances in...we look half asleep as well...

[barticus]

Thank gawd for Suarez...deffo penalty and sending off...good pen by gerrard...hopefully we can wake up in the 2nd half and really go for the jugular...newcastle will get more and more tired...

[Martinmarx]

Very good shot from Cabayé to be honest. Can't fault Mignolet for that.

Other than that a very disappointing first half. We don't look up for it at all. No urgency, no passion. We need to step up a gear or three in the second half if we have any hope of bringing home 3 points.

[Martinmarx]

Bitterly disappointed with the result and the performance. Rodgers needs to reconsider the 3-5-2 formation ASAP. It just isn't working or maybe we just miss Coutinho that much.

[Tes]

I think there's two very minor positives we can take from the game - firstly we weren't the victims of a 10 man smash 'n' grab, and it happens, and secondly, we scored a goal in the second half of the game, which definitely counts as a collector's item. The rest was almost forgettable before it happened.

It's impossible to tell yet if it was two points lost or one gained. We'll only know that much nearer the end of the season.

Whilst we defend so sloppily, we'll always make it hard for ourselves.

Moses is certainly no number 10 but there's little if no alternative at the moment.

Midfield has to be a priority in January. Just one, clearly defined midfielder, be it a genuine playmaker, goalscoring midfielder or even a strong, pacy enforcer would make a definite difference. At the moment we have much of muchness and nothing of anything. I think 'bland' is a word that sums up our midfield.

Imagine this team with Alonso and Masch where we have Lucas and Gerrard, and Gerrard where Moses lines up. I still think we missed a trick not getting Flamini or even Barry on loan.

Gerrard neither looks convincing or convinced about playing his current role and whilst he's been a great player for the team, he's never been a great team player.

West Brom has to prove to be a cause for salvation if we're to keep the wheels on this season's wagon, otherwise we could start to see a slow decline from any promise the early season may have hinted at.

[Martinmarx]

Well said Tes. I know it may not be kosher bto say this, but I genuinely believe as long as Lucas and Henderson are, not only regular starters, but also integral cogs in our squad 4th may be behind us. We sure must strengthen this part of the squad.

At the same time I believe the 3-5-2 formation is a major problem for us. We started the season with a more 4-3-3 or 4-4-1-1 like formation and our ability to dominate the game was evident against Stoke, Villa and Swansea (at least first half in the latter two).  After Coutinho's injury Rodgers went for the current 3-5-2 and we really struggled in midfield against all of Sunderland, Crystal Palace and Newcastle. Gone is the high pressure game, gone is the positional play in midfield and attacking areas, gone is the trademark passing game over the last 15 months. I don't know but I have the feeling Rodgers always wanted to play 3-5-2 and just waited for the right time to implement it. I hope I am wrong but if I'm not this will end badly because he doesn't have the material to play that formation nor is it suitable to the PL.

[barticus]

Well said Tes. I know it may not be kosher bto say this, but I genuinely believe as long as Lucas and Henderson are, not only regular starters, but also integral cogs in our squad 4th may be behind us. We sure must strengthen this part of the squad.

At the same time I believe the 3-5-2 formation is a major problem for us. We started the season with a more 4-3-3 or 4-4-1-1 like formation and our ability to dominate the game was evident against Stoke, Villa and Swansea (at least first half in the latter two).  After Coutinho's injury Rodgers went for the current 3-5-2 and we really struggled in midfield against all of Sunderland, Crystal Palace and Newcastle. Gone is the high pressure game, gone is the positional play in midfield and attacking areas, gone is the trademark passing game over the last 15 months. I don't know but I have the feeling Rodgers always wanted to play 3-5-2 and just waited for the right time to implement it. I hope I am wrong but if I'm not this will end badly because he doesn't have the material to play that formation nor is it suitable to the PL.

Not sure why you have such a downer on Lucas, Martin, when it was glaringly obvious we missed him against Newcastle. (Congrats btw to the Leiva family on the new born one).
One of the major problems in our midfield is Gerrard, as he ain't no good in that position. He wasn't any good 2 years ago let alone when he's slowing down now. He's been a glorious player for us but he should be played to his strengths and not to what he thinks is his strengths..Benitez could see the difference and played him accordingly, other managers...not so much.
He should be playing behind the strikers...which would mean he has no more responsibility as midfield general...cos he simply can't do it...
As Rodgers wants to attack then he needs Coutinho...cos we're not the same without him...so he's a given...
Then add Lucas (sorry if he can play for Brazil he must be doing something right)...and another defensive midfielder general type..to cover....Wanyama of Celtic/Southhampton would be the ideal type to cover the flair and indiscipline of coutinho and gerrard...
If we got a similar Viera/Wanyama type...then his discipline and playing for the team rather than personal glory combined with Lucas could make the serious difference to this wayward team we have at the moment...

[Ed]

Midfield has to be a priority in January. Just one, clearly defined midfielder, be it a genuine playmaker, goalscoring midfielder or even a strong, pacy enforcer would make a definite difference. At the moment we have much of muchness and nothing of anything. I think 'bland' is a word that sums up our midfield.

I'd agree wholeheartedly there Tes - workmanlike would be my description, no ambition to
get on the ball and make it happen.

One of the major problems in our midfield is Gerrard

Again, that's the weak point for me too.

This f**kin 3 at the back nonsense has to stop. It just confuses the issue. It's this
new coach b*llshit, the modern game, attacking fullbacks. A team needs defensive
capability full stop, a structure, clearly defined roles, solidity, partnerships & understanding,
consistency, the platform on which everything else is built.

I wanna see two centre-backs, a defensive midfielder and two full-backs who can defend first
& foremost & if they're going forward, they're making significant contributions. Call me old-
fashioned but that's the rhythm of things I understand. Rodgers is all about fluidity, loosely
defined roles (is he an attacker/defender?), difficult to watch and the gaps will always appear -
It's not about trying to be clever and modern (formation w*nk), it's about getting 3 points against
10 men and not labouring to create a decent chance with this advantage!

The weird sh*t about the Newxastle game was the sterility in midfield, because of the 3 centre
halves & two attacking full backs structure, there's no adventure in midfield, a sterile entity, two
guys doing the exact same thing.

I understand Lucas and Henderson in midfield, it's the third man that's the key.

Dude said it on here years ago Gerrard is our Bryan Robson!

[Martinmarx]

Not sure why you have such a downer on Lucas, Martin, when it was glaringly obvious we missed him against Newcastle. (Congrats btw to the Leiva family on the new born one).

I don't know if I'm that harsh on Lucas. It isn't my intention anyroad. I genuinely appreciate his ability to break up opponents play and his positional awareness. Too bad he only show that when the team performs well. My main gripe with Lucas is, without one exception, he never took a step forward and offered leadership when the team cried out for it. For 4-5 years he's been given so many chances to grow and develop into the enforcer he needs to be if we are to develop with him in the team and he failed massively. I don't know if he's complacent knowing full well he'll be played regardless of the level of his performance. I know he's many fans favorite but I've never come around to understand as to why that is. I would much rather we could find a defensive midfielder in the Batty-Keane-Masch mould and keep Lucas as back up.

I'd also agre with what's being said about Gerrard. Arguably the best player in the history of this club but time really have catched up with him. Yesterday he needlessly gave away possession on at least 6 occasions. I really can see the wheels coming off sooner rather than later unless Rodgers' sort out our central midfield. Maybe he should start by going back to a formation the players are familiar and feel comfortable with?

Rant over.

[Tes]

Martin, did you ever see Lucas play for Gremio?

[Tes]

I think the 3 man central defensive setup has been a way to play both Skrtel and Sakho, whilst being unable to leave Toure out for obvious reasons.