2013-2014 Season

[barticus]

Change the formation...the strikers are stranded...bring on coutinho..our midfield is non existent  .if we don't we'll lose by 2 at least...

[Martinmarx]

Rodgers did what he could at half-time but Henderson's and Lucas' shortcomings aren't his fault. Hopefully he realised this 3-5-2/5-3-2 crap aint the way forward. Again Lucas was dismal and lost in a game where we needed leadership and urgency. He's gotten away with this crap for too long IMHO.

Henderson? Well don't get me started. It's harsh I know, but until we get these two replaced we won't stand a chance to get 4th. Simple as. Henderson's collapse when free on goal says it all really. "Oh, he runs and runs, he's such a superduperstar".

Congrats to the bottom for their best display of the season. You won't make the play-off's anyroad.

Oh, and Gerrard needs replacing ASAP. The wheels are coming off I'm afraid.

[Ed]

Was looking at Arsenal's (we play them soon)  midfield/forward lineup
the other day. Just struck me that it was much more coherent, balanced
than ours.

Hmmm....

[barticus]

In games like these, tactics and formation have to be spot on from the start, there are no second chances. Learnt nowt from the game against another good footballing side aka Southampton and with that in mind it's an idiotic selection with 3 at the back away at arsenal...ffs...
Cissokho was dire and thank gawd we haven't bought him, not flanagan's fault but he was picked to keep the formation going, Sakho preferred to Agger???,
considering we had 5 in midfield where were they? no support to the SAS and it's pretty pitiful to see sturridge running around the pitch with no backup at all...suarez underperformed too..and mignolet looks nervous as i would be with the shiite in front of me
If Rodgers can't get the formation and respond tactically with the limited squad we have then we'll be lucky to get 6th at the end of the season...

[Martinmarx]

In games like these, tactics and formation have to be spot on from the start, there are no second chances. Learnt nowt from the game against another good footballing side aka Southampton and with that in mind it's an idiotic selection with 3 at the back away at arsenal...ffs...
Cissokho was dire and thank gawd we haven't bought him, not flanagan's fault but he was picked to keep the formation going, Sakho preferred to Agger???,
considering we had 5 in midfield where were they? no support to the SAS and it's pretty pitiful to see sturridge running around the pitch with no backup at all...suarez underperformed too..and mignolet looks nervous as i would be with the shiite in front of me
If Rodgers can't get the formation and respond tactically with the limited squad we have then we'll be lucky to get 6th at the end of the season...

I agree with some of that Bart. Still, it is what it is and Gerrard, Henderson and Lucas looks more average by each game that pass. No top-50 team in Europe play 3-5-2/5-3-2 so why persist when we so obviously lack the squad?

[Juan]

Theres alot been written and said in the media about yesterdays game but like last weeks win against West Brom I think results like these need to be taken with a bit of perspective. We were playing away to the leagues form team where we didnt play well, they did and we lost two nil. Its football, it happens. Same thing happened to Chelsea yesterday but they dont seem to attract the same media headlines that we do.

The truth is we are continually improving as a side. If whats on show on the pitch isnt a good enough barometer for that then you can look at our points tally this year compared to last. At the same point this season we have approximately twice as many points as last. Reflecting on some articles in todays papers its their job to analyse things to death. So after yesterdays performance the general consensus seems to be that we are not good enough to maintain a title challenge. Yet in six weeks time if we manage to maintain the start we've had to the season those same journo's will have selective amnesia about what they are saying today and we will be deservedly or not be back labelled as challengers.

So without going into any real analysis on yesterdays game I plan to take this one on the chin. We lost, we only played well in patches and the weaknesses in our side which have been evident from the outset were magnified that little bit more in the wake of yesterdays defeat. Were we to lose two or three in a row against any of our closest rivals it may be cause for concern but at the end of the day its just a 2 nil defeat without us learning too much that we didnt already know.

[Ed]

I agree with some of that Bart. Still, it is what it is and Gerrard, Henderson and Lucas looks more average by each game that pass. No top-50 team in Europe play 3-5-2/5-3-2 so why persist when we so obviously lack the squad?

I'd say the root problem for us in that game is his indecisiveness over
the two centre backs (something we've pointed to on here).

You add in the injuries/sicknesses Enrique/Johnson, lack of cover at RB &
surprising inclusions Flanagan (came out of nowhere, that one - throw him in
away at the Emirates?) & we started with:

          X                      Toure/Skrtel/Sakho                     X

Flanagan                           Lucas                                  Cissokho
                               Henderson  Gerrrard

                                Sturridge     Suarez

In the first minute of the commentary Lee Dixon pointed to the
space where the Xs are with that formation. I still feel that it's a
question of clear roles in defence, who does what & it's just too
easy with all those defensively minded players on the pitch to
leave picking up an extra man to someone else or even more
simply the players asking where should I be right now?

Then you look at who's organising these 6 defenders on the pitch?

What I see is a horrid transfer of this notion of fluidity and
interchanging roles that Rodgers has in the final third to defense!

Defense is completely different, it's all about structure, organisation and roles
2 proper CBs, a defensive midfielder and 2 fullbacks should be enough.

Lots of these things get sorted out naturally when you have the right combination
of 2 centre backs & a decent defensive midfielder (which we have in Lucas).

Anyway, then you look at the two guys who've been selected as the high wing backs
& you get these dreaded attenders/defackers, players who do neither well. Hence as
Bart pointed out the 2 strikers are starved of the ball in the first half & there's confusion
at the back.

I think we may have started the game decently, but as the half wore it became apparent
that we lacked any control of the game.

We finished the game with:

Henderson                Toure/Skrtel              Sakho?

                                  Lucas/Gerrard

Moses                                                         Coutinho

                              Sturridge       Suarez

Granted we were actually able to create some chances but the game was
over at this point - Just seems a mess to me (with all the focus on over 80% of
our goals been scored by 2 players, the team as a whole wasn't ready for the
demands of a big game away).

The only other point I'd make is, there didn't seem to be the appetite for a big
game - a lack of sharpness that comes with regularly playing in the CL maybe?
Lucas was dreadfully ponderous in possession imo.

People will talk about injuries but by my estimation Arsenal were missing
Wilshere/Ox/Flamini/Walcott, so best to take our medicine and go back to
beating the league's canon fodder at home.

[Edward224]

I agree with some of that Bart. Still, it is what it is and Gerrard, Henderson and Lucas looks more average by each game that pass. No top-50 team in Europe play 3-5-2/5-3-2 so why persist when we so obviously lack the squad?

Juventus play 3-5-2 to accommodate Pirlo. Thing is they have actual midfielders in Pogba, Vidal (imo the best central midfielder in the world except for those at Bayern or Barca) and Marchisio who are all excellent and can play that way to allow the brilliance of Pirlo and his play making skills.

But I whole heartedly agree we should drop this 3 at the back nonsense.

[Tes]

Juventus play 3-5-2 to accommodate Pirlo. Thing is they have actual midfielders in Pogba, Vidal (imo the best central midfielder in the world except for those at Bayern or Barca) and Marchisio who are all excellent and can play that way to allow the brilliance of Pirlo and his play making skills.

But I whole heartedly agree we should drop this 3 at the back nonsense.

Udinese used to, may still do, but I haven't watched Serie A for a while. Continental teams who have employed it don't simply stick three centre halves there, they utilise 3 defenders to form a 3 man defensive unit.
I doubt any of our centre halves have ever played the system and it shows.

[Tes]

As Juan says, if things are kept in perspective, we were last season's seventh best team, and this season has to see an improvement from that, 5th being the minimum.
There's a huge leap from 7th to 4th, as even Man City  showed despite their spending, and 7th to title challengers is just fantasy nonsense.
We lost away to the league leaders, the team best team overall so far this season and the most consistent in the league.
In addition we went there and set up in a way that would allow them to play to their strengths, and that's just what they did.

Hopefully now we don't see or hear the words 'Liverpool', 'title' and 'challengers' in the same sentence for the rest of the season.

[Martinmarx]

As Juan says, if things are kept in perspective, we were last season's seventh best team, and this season has to see an improvement from that, 5th being the minimum.
There's a huge leap from 7th to 4th, as even Man City  showed despite their spending, and 7th to title challengers is just fantasy nonsense.
We lost away to the league leaders, the team best team overall so far this season and the most consistent in the league.
In addition we went there and set up in a way that would allow them to play to their strengths, and that's just what they did.

Hopefully now we don't see or hear the words 'Liverpool', 'title' and 'challengers' in the same sentence for the rest of the season.

Don't hold your breath mate. Wins over Fulham and the Bitters will no doubt see us have at least one finger on the title, by some accounts.

[Ed]

to form a 3 man defensive unit.

Precisely. Annoying this whole formation w*nk
because the great LFC teams kept it so simple
& made it look so easy (When I see Toure attempting
to pass to Skrtel and Giroud almost scoring, I lose
the f**king will to live).

In addition we went there and set up in a way that would allow them to play to their strengths, and that's just what they did.

I looked at the teamsheet & went f**k. The really annoying
thing was the cohesion of Arsenal, working as a team whereas
we seemed to be two separate entities a glut of defenders at 1
end, two strikers at the other & Arsenal dominating the space
in between...

In fact strangely Arsenal looked like everything Rodgers craves
(bar the crazy passing around at the back bit).

Wins over Fulham and the Bitters will no doubt see us have at least one finger on the title, by some accounts.

They should look at the December fixture list, away to Chelsea, City & Spurs... 9 points!

[Martinmarx]

In fairness they completely lost the game last 25 and there was this feeling among neutrals in the pub if we score before 85 we'll get a Point at least. They were good but not that good.

Hopefully Rodgers will be as good a learner from his own mistakes as he's been in the past.

[Ed]

Cox's analysis of the game:

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2013/11/04/arsenal-2-0-liverpool-arsenal-get-the-better-of-both-of-rodgers-systems/

Interesting to see it without the fan's prejudices and passions:

"Arsenal were the better side – just about keeping Liverpool’s front two quiet, and dominating both centrally and down the flanks in possession."

"There’s a lack of creativity from deeper positions, however – Steven Gerrard was unusually quiet – and Liverpool tend to be dominated down the flanks with this formation, conceding too much pressure"

"if Arsenal could keep Suarez and Sturridge quiet, they would win the game."

"Arsenal had two major solutions to the threat posed by Liverpool’s front two. First, Mikel Arteta played an extremely deep role in front of the defence, almost as a forward-playing centre-back at times...Second, Koscielny was at his most proactive. When playing alongside Mertesacker he’s a very forward-thinking defender who relentlessly closes down opponents when they drop into deeper positions."

"When Liverpool broke quickly, they were dangerous, but when Arsenal got men behind the ball, they lacked incision from the midfielders."

"Crossing has been an prominent part of Arsenal’s gameplan recently"

"You can also partly blame Liverpool’s system for the concession – as Mamadou Sakho moved out of the defence they remained two-against-one with Giroud in the centre, but Flanagan’s advanced positioning meant he wasn’t able to get back goalside of Cazorla, who found a pocket of space – a proper right-back (in a back four) would probably have been covering."

" Liverpool’s midfield zone seemed rather disorganised, with Gerrard and Lucas often bypassed too easily."

"For long periods – especially once ahead – Arsenal took advantage of the fact Liverpool’s three-versus-one against Giroud meant Arsenal had more men in deeper positions. Arsenal always had a free player, effectively nine-against-seven across the rest of the pitch – and while they didn’t relentlessly threaten Mignolet, they calmed the tempo of the game and retained control."

and he finishes with:

"Rodgers’ side were eventually well beaten, but it’s hard to fault many of his decisions. It was understandable to start with the 3-5-2 given its recent success, and the decision to keep Henderson central made sense considering his performance in this game last year. His forward charges from the top of midfield allowed Liverpool to break dangerously.

It was also a logical early decision to revert to the 4-4-2 with Coutinho coming inside off the flank – he was dangerous, if frustratingly ineffective with his passing. Moving Henderson to right-back, in order to accommodate another attacker also made sense, with Liverpool having a good spell of late pressure."

[Martinmarx]

Cox's analysis of the game:

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2013/11/04/arsenal-2-0-liverpool-arsenal-get-the-better-of-both-of-rodgers-systems/

Interesting to see it without the fan's prejudices and passions:

"Arsenal were the better side – just about keeping Liverpool’s front two quiet, and dominating both centrally and down the flanks in possession."

"There’s a lack of creativity from deeper positions, however – Steven Gerrard was unusually quiet – and Liverpool tend to be dominated down the flanks with this formation, conceding too much pressure"

"if Arsenal could keep Suarez and Sturridge quiet, they would win the game."

"Arsenal had two major solutions to the threat posed by Liverpool’s front two. First, Mikel Arteta played an extremely deep role in front of the defence, almost as a forward-playing centre-back at times...Second, Koscielny was at his most proactive. When playing alongside Mertesacker he’s a very forward-thinking defender who relentlessly closes down opponents when they drop into deeper positions."

"When Liverpool broke quickly, they were dangerous, but when Arsenal got men behind the ball, they lacked incision from the midfielders."

"Crossing has been an prominent part of Arsenal’s gameplan recently"

"You can also partly blame Liverpool’s system for the concession – as Mamadou Sakho moved out of the defence they remained two-against-one with Giroud in the centre, but Flanagan’s advanced positioning meant he wasn’t able to get back goalside of Cazorla, who found a pocket of space – a proper right-back (in a back four) would probably have been covering."

" Liverpool’s midfield zone seemed rather disorganised, with Gerrard and Lucas often bypassed too easily."

"For long periods – especially once ahead – Arsenal took advantage of the fact Liverpool’s three-versus-one against Giroud meant Arsenal had more men in deeper positions. Arsenal always had a free player, effectively nine-against-seven across the rest of the pitch – and while they didn’t relentlessly threaten Mignolet, they calmed the tempo of the game and retained control."

and he finishes with:

"Rodgers’ side were eventually well beaten, but it’s hard to fault many of his decisions. It was understandable to start with the 3-5-2 given its recent success, and the decision to keep Henderson central made sense considering his performance in this game last year. His forward charges from the top of midfield allowed Liverpool to break dangerously.

It was also a logical early decision to revert to the 4-4-2 with Coutinho coming inside off the flank – he was dangerous, if frustratingly ineffective with his passing. Moving Henderson to right-back, in order to accommodate another attacker also made sense, with Liverpool having a good spell of late pressure."

Good read indeed. Still wonder what IF any other player than Henderson would've got his chance after 10, or what IF Atkinson didn't disallow our perfect goal after taking that free-kick quickly. Amazing decision really to call it off just to award a yellow.

Anyroad, the most important thing right now is to get back to a back-4. That would allow us to switch between 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 depending on the run of play and whether or not we're on top of things. As it has turned out, the 3-5-2/5-3-2 formation requires too big alterations when it fails (which it will in most games away from home regardless of opposition. Remember Sunderland's domination for periods of the game?).