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Author Topic: 4-2-1-3  (Read 2817 times)

Offline Ed

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4-2-1-3
« on: August 15, 2013, 06:11:58 PM »
Decided to stop bitchin' for a while.

I'll be honest, haven't watched any of our pre-season!

Anyway, Mr. Wilson's written something on that 4-2-1-3
formation:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1737502-kagawa-wilshere-toure-and-dembele-could-define-tactical-shape-of-the-season

Offline the dude abides

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Re: 4-2-1-3
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2013, 11:22:29 PM »
using 4 defenders is for big sissies   :P


Rodgers is going forward, with the focus on attack.


I sometimes wonder if he is being over-cautious, by deploying a goal-keeper.



In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Ed

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Re: 4-2-1-3
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2013, 02:52:03 AM »
using 4 defenders is for big sissies   :P

Rodgers is going forward, with the focus on attack.
I know, I liked the idea of the 2 screening our somewhat
neglected defense. The 1 more flexible & able to bomb
forward & link with the 3 further up field.

What is it we play at the mo, anyone know?

I sometimes wonder if he is being over-cautious, by deploying a goal-keeper.
Was a very big decision, the Reina thing. Not like top clubs replace keepers
too often. He must have a hell of a lot of confidence in Mignolet, to rest the
defence on him.

Would it be fair (joking Juan  ;D ) to say that his approach to the defence
has been simultaneously brutal (axing Reina, Skrtel and never really giving
Coates a chance) and neglectful, not signing a star yet. Possibly the actions
of someone not overly confident (the Carra, Toure crutches) in this vital area
of the field. I'd opine that we're a bit f*cked if we hired a manager who has an
obvious blindspot for defending. Jesus wept, you could be years trying to sort it
out!

Anyone recall him speaking sensibly on the subject? All I ever seem to
hear him go on about is tricky technicians and what's happening in the final 3rd,
with occasional references to the role of the midfield.

Must keep an eye on this this season (Though, I was thinking of supporting Villa  ;D,
Lambert has imo some courage in his convictions and is a much quieter individual).


Offline the dude abides

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Re: 4-2-1-3
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2013, 04:42:10 PM »
I know, I liked the idea of the 2 screening our somewhat
neglected defense. The 1 more flexible & able to bomb
forward & link with the 3 further up field.

What is it we play at the mo, anyone know?
Was a very big decision, the Reina thing. Not like top clubs replace keepers
too often. He must have a hell of a lot of confidence in Mignolet, to rest the
defence on him.

Would it be fair (joking Juan  ;D ) to say that his approach to the defence
has been simultaneously brutal (axing Reina, Skrtel and never really giving
Coates a chance) and neglectful, not signing a star yet. Possibly the actions
of someone not overly confident (the Carra, Toure crutches) in this vital area
of the field. I'd opine that we're a bit f*cked if we hired a manager who has an
obvious blindspot for defending. Jesus wept, you could be years trying to sort it
out!

Anyone recall him speaking sensibly on the subject? All I ever seem to
hear him go on about is tricky technicians and what's happening in the final 3rd,
with occasional references to the role of the midfield.

Must keep an eye on this this season (Though, I was thinking of supporting Villa  ;D ,
Lambert has imo some courage in his convictions and is a much quieter individual).


unsure what our formation is at present.............sorta everybody forward type approach.


he doesn't like being defeatist (which means ignoring the back end of the pitch, where defenders tend to play), and thus tries to always be offensive. He succeeds.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: 4-2-1-3
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2013, 11:44:14 AM »
What I always thought was telling with Taggart was that for a team that was always praised for it's attacking abilities (all of the teams he built), the thing that was a constant theme was he built that attacking aspect on a good defensive unit.
A top class goalkeeper, a strong centre half pairing, and full backs that could defend first and foremost.

And unlike us (or at least the way we appear to be going), whilst age could mean a high number, it also meant experience, something that couldn't be bought in a sub 24 year old, no matter how much money you throw at it.
I know I tend to bring Taggart into the discussion a lot, but in him I saw a manager who'd studied us intently, saw and understand what it was that made us the team we were and built his entire Manc career on applying it, backed up with great commercial accumen off the field that allowed him the buying power.

And unlike when Souness came in and ripped everything up straight away, you can bet Taggart has made sure Moyes knows to not make the same mistake as power is transferred to the new man. Again, he will have studied us, what we did wrong and use that knowledge to his, Moyes' and the club's benefit, which is one of the reasons I don't see them falling away quickly from the top four. That and the fact that Moyes is no fool.
With an overall budget less than ours Moyes has managed to finish ahead of both Rodgers and Dalglish, both of whom had massively outspent him, and even managed it once during Rafa's tenure.
Also, it would appear he builds his team/squad in a similar fashion to Taggart.
No mass influx of players at any one time, select youngsters and the occasional big fee signing (Fellaini @ £15M was hardly chicken feed).

So back to us and Rodgers' apparent blind spot where defence is concerned. The biggest puzzle for me is Coates. The manager obviously doesn't rate him at all, and judging by the way he was used last season, it will only be in an emergency or if the match is of low priority (FA Cup last season for example), so why the player hasn't been moved on or at least upgraded seems strange.
In effect we only have 3 centre halves competing for 2 places, when we could have had four. If we were to upgrade Coates it would give us 4 centre halves challenging for two starting places, then two centre halves challenging for one place on the bench, so giving us increased competition and an increased chance of one of the centre halves coming into the team (under whatever circumstances) and making the place his own.
At the moment we only have Agger (if he can stay fit). Toure, under normal circumstances should be the favourite to be fourth choice, but if Skrtel couldn't dislodge a 35 year old about to retire, will he be any more successful with Toure who gives Carra 3 years.
Now, the combination of Skrtel/Agger and Carra/Agger weren't enough last season and so far we haven't really changed much about that other than swapping Carra for Toure. Upgrading Coates would have meant strengthening our weakest link (always a good idea) and increasing the pressure on the two starters to keep their level up or be replaced as there would twice as many players for the manager to choose a replacement from.
Whilst I'm not saying we haven't tried, as we don't know what's been happening behind the scenes, what is certain is we've not actually changed much and certainly nowhere near enough to solve the problem, to which Toure alone is certainly not the answer.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: 4-2-1-3
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2013, 08:58:26 PM »
What I always thought was telling with Taggart was that for a team that was always praised for it's attacking abilities (all of the teams he built), the thing that was a constant theme was he built that attacking aspect on a good defensive unit.
A top class goalkeeper, a strong centre half pairing, and full backs that could defend first and foremost.

And unlike us (or at least the way we appear to be going), whilst age could mean a high number, it also meant experience,


yes, shortly after getting his feet under the table at Old Trafford, Fergie was smart enough to start building a solid defence.

he brought in steve bruce in 1987; and then another top centre-half a year later, in gary pallister.

you build from the back - this is true, down through the ages.

brent builds from the front, with scarcely a thought seemingly about his defence.

any players he brings in, seem to be all offensive minded.

thus, we lack balance.  I hate the fact that we have this youngster in the dugout, who thinks he is reinventing football.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 08:59:57 PM by the dude abides »
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.