January 19, 2020, 08:01:41 PM

Author Topic: Season 2014/15  (Read 189818 times)

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2014, 09:11:31 AM »
Right now what I wouldn't give for a time machine and Dietmar Hamann to be in it.

Rodgers needs to dig out 100 hours worth of Didi on whatever digital/viewing format he likes and give Gerrard some homework.

Is true for all the mistakes we made on their opener Gerrard's inability to support the defence wasn't helping.
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2014, 09:35:20 AM »
agreed.

City away is as hard as it gets.....so that one is out of the way.   Would have been nice to take a point, but it is what it is.

Yes, Johnston is a liability.    In his career, he has never entirely convinced me going forward - and he has always been poor at defending.

For me this season, Rodgers will get found out at the back.  Football is all about balance.  And the blame that he has previously placed on the defence, now will get found out.   The key issue has always been balance.

If you leave your defence and keeper exposed - you will concede goals.

Balance is something that Rodgers needs to learn.  Or else it will eventually be the end of him.   You have to know when to attack, when to sit deep, when to speed things up, when to slow them down.  And simply blaming players, or putting that responsibility on them, is not gonna wash.  They need guidance from the touchline during games.

Dude, we've being saying this since the manager arrived. We discussed Swansea's 'style' which revealed the same.

Going forward we look well drilled, polished, practiced, everyone sure of their roles and each other's and how it all fits together. Defensively, all aspects of are the polar opposite. The lack of defensive aspects to the playing method or the complete lack of understanding of and practice at the defensive aspect of Rodgers' playing methods and philosophy is glaringly obvious. I keep trying to find improvements as I'm desperate to see it happening, even just a start,a glimmer to cling onto that might be built on.
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2014, 09:50:36 AM »
agreed.

City away is as hard as it gets.....so that one is out of the way.   Would have been nice to take a point, but it is what it is.

Yes, Johnston is a liability.    In his career, he has never entirely convinced me going forward - and he has always been poor at defending.

For me this season, Rodgers will get found out at the back.  Football is all about balance.  And the blame that he has previously placed on the defence, now will get found out.   The key issue has always been balance.

If you leave your defence and keeper exposed - you will concede goals.

Balance is something that Rodgers needs to learn.  Or else it will eventually be the end of him.   You have to know when to attack, when to sit deep, when to speed things up, when to slow them down.  And simply blaming players, or putting that responsibility on them, is not gonna wash.  They need guidance from the touchline during games.

I really don't think it was a case of playing an unbalanced side. Rather it was our inability to threat and score during the opening 35 that ultimately cost us. You could also make a case City was extremly effective and clinical scoring 3 from 4 shots on goal.

You would also have to ask Lambert how he could miss that sitter that would've taken us back into the game with almost 10 to play. Horrible, horrible miss that.

If I were to forward criticism to any one player today it would be Sturridge. He was exceptionally out of position for the entire game making it increasingly difficult for Sterling and Coutinho (who, together with Allen, dominated the midfield in the first 35) to bring him into play. Also, the few times he managed to get the ball under control he just went on to waste it - brilliant cross for Lambert though.

As I see it we're struggling to find an identity, a gameplan, a way to score goals in the post-Suarez era. In that sense we were a tad unlucky to play City away this early as I'm sure we'd be a different proposition a few months from now. But as Oliver Holt wrote so brilliantly in his post-game comments, we're too talented side to slip back into the shadows. But Rodgers really really need to give this idea of playing Sturridge up front in a lone striker role a second thought.
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2014, 10:11:35 AM »
Is true for all the mistakes we made on their opener Gerrard's inability to support the defence wasn't helping.

Martin, for me, Gerrard has always been an instinctive player who played on his emotions. In terms of importance to the club and impact on it, he's right there alongside Dalglish and Liddell as far as I'm concerned. He has vision, of course he does, but the two things he's always lacked or the other things have always overridden them, are real tactical understanding and the applied discipline that comes from it.

I also think that the long list of career injuries has caught up with him. It's not enough to have a deep sitting conductor if he can't get off the podium to pick up the conducting baton if he drops it.
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2014, 11:31:54 AM »
I really don't think it was a case of playing an unbalanced side. Rather it was our inability to threat and score during the opening 35 that ultimately cost us. You could also make a case City was extremly effective and clinical scoring 3 from 4 shots on goal.

You would also have to ask Lambert how he could miss that sitter that would've taken us back into the game with almost 10 to play. Horrible, horrible miss that.

If I were to forward criticism to any one player today it would be Sturridge. He was exceptionally out of position for the entire game making it increasingly difficult for Sterling and Coutinho (who, together with Allen, dominated the midfield in the first 35) to bring him into play. Also, the few times he managed to get the ball under control he just went on to waste it - brilliant cross for Lambert though.

As I see it we're struggling to find an identity, a gameplan, a way to score goals in the post-Suarez era. In that sense we were a tad unlucky to play City away this early as I'm sure we'd be a different proposition a few months from now. But as Oliver Holt wrote so brilliantly in his post-game comments, we're too talented side to slip back into the shadows. But Rodgers really really need to give this idea of playing Sturridge up front in a lone striker role a second thought.

Martin, I agree with you re Sturridge, however, we have to remember that we are the first club, (with the exception of his Bolton loan spell), where he has been a regular starter, game after game, and even then, he was always the support act, not the headliner. Now he has that role to learn.
It would be a monumental mistake to expect him to simply step in and take up where Suarez left off. It just can't happen. At least not instantly.

For me, Suarez was the best player in the world last season, above Messi and Ronaldo because of the sheer effort and interest he maintained when he or we didn't have the ball, so Sturridge alone can't replace Suarez, and as Sturridge's effect is going to change as he contributes towards replacing the Suarez effect, we are in essence replacing the combined effect of Suarez and Sturridge. If other's efforts aren't enough or what is required, then Sturridge's contribution will also be less effective overall.
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2014, 12:09:28 PM »
Martin, I agree with you re Sturridge, however, we have to remember that we are the first club, (with the exception of his Bolton loan spell), where he has been a regular starter, game after game, and even then, he was always the support act, not the headliner. Now he has that role to learn.
It would be a monumental mistake to expect him to simply step in and take up where Suarez left off. It just can't happen. At least not instantly.

For me, Suarez was the best player in the world last season, above Messi and Ronaldo because of the sheer effort and interest he maintained when he or we didn't have the ball, so Sturridge alone can't replace Suarez, and as Sturridge's effect is going to change as he contributes towards replacing the Suarez effect, we are in essence replacing the combined effect of Suarez and Sturridge. If other's efforts aren't enough or what is required, then Sturridge's contribution will also be less effective overall.

I think you're spot on Sturridge might need som time to settle in to his new role as the leading striker. Question, though, is whether being played in the lone striker role is gonna speed up or halt that development/acclimatisation? Or maybe looking to play him in a different set-up with two strikers might take som pressure off his shoulders.

I agree with you that Suarez was the best player in the world last season and losing him would always cause some sort of reaction. When even Gary Neville say the errors we committed last night is fairly easy to correct I'm not that worried. After all it was only Lovren's second game and Moreno's debut. Baptism of fire of sorts for both of them. I am, however, very critical of the fact Sakho's not being played. That one Rodgers really really got wrong.

I was also hugely impressed by Allen's performance. Along with Sterling and Coutinho and Henderson we completely took Toure and Silva out of the game (was Nasri even on the pitch?). So there's every reason to be positive this season can hold a surprise or two as well.
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Offline barticus

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2014, 12:42:42 PM »
ok....so saw the game...and thought we were unlucky in the first half cos we'd done pretty well....the glaring elephant in the room is gerrard and his age and stamina...i love the guy but as the game went on, we were completely overrun in defence and we need a mascherano type to bully and kill...

moreno looked good going forward and though he messed up for the first goal, he did at least make amends...
lamberts cameo means he will be a useful sub...something different...
can and markovic looked vaguely decent...a couple of nice touches...
thank god we have flanagan to take johnsons place...
steve clarke seriously needs to be brought back as defensive coach as our brendan is just winging it at the moment and hoping for the best....

gerrard needs a rest....and to be used sparingly behind the front two rather than in this defensive role....he aint up to it...

so overall, i thought we were ok...some dodgy mistakes but we showed promise....i would not be this optimistic if we hadnt got balotelli....but we have so we have a replacement for suarez...man city away though is the toughest game on the calendar and i was expecting a 1-0 loss to us...we need everyone to rally round ballotelli and i think he'll turn it on for us....play him and sturridge upfront....and we'll do well...wining the league though is another matter....top 4 and keeping manure out is probably top priority....

touch game now against spurs....its always interesting...

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2014, 01:43:18 PM »
ok....so saw the game...and thought we were unlucky in the first half cos we'd done pretty well....the glaring elephant in the room is gerrard and his age and stamina...i love the guy but as the game went on, we were completely overrun in defence and we need a mascherano type to bully and kill...

moreno looked good going forward and though he messed up for the first goal, he did at least make amends...
lamberts cameo means he will be a useful sub...something different...
can and markovic looked vaguely decent...a couple of nice touches...
thank god we have flanagan to take johnsons place...
steve clarke seriously needs to be brought back as defensive coach as our brendan is just winging it at the moment and hoping for the best....

gerrard needs a rest....and to be used sparingly behind the front two rather than in this defensive role....he aint up to it...

so overall, i thought we were ok...some dodgy mistakes but we showed promise....i would not be this optimistic if we hadnt got balotelli....but we have so we have a replacement for suarez...man city away though is the toughest game on the calendar and i was expecting a 1-0 loss to us...we need everyone to rally round ballotelli and i think he'll turn it on for us....play him and sturridge upfront....and we'll do well...wining the league though is another matter....top 4 and keeping manure out is probably top priority....

touch game now against spurs....its always interesting...

I agree with most, if not all of that. I actually thought Can looked good. Wasn't that impressed by him during pre-season but I really Think he has what it takes. Just need more gametime. Markovic looked lively when he first came on but seeing as both Sterling and Sturridge were spent he quickly became isolated on the wing.

As you say Rodgers MUST play two strikers from now on. I don't Think it's as much Gerrard's age an'all as it is the 4-3-3 formation as such and the vulnerability it creates down our flanks.

Johnson wasn't that good but I don't like this discourse that surround everything he does. Some people (not here) would probably blame him for Moreno's mistake. And I don't think for one second Flanagan is proper replacement.
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2014, 01:43:53 PM »
I was also hugely impressed by Allen's performance.

From the first two league games of the season, I think Allen has been our best midfielder. He made a real difference coming on against Southampton and he was head and shoulders above Henderson and Gerrard last night. I was particularly disappointed with Hendo's contribution to the second half.
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2014, 02:44:54 PM »
From the first two league games of the season, I think Allen has been our best midfielder. He made a real difference coming on against Southampton and he was head and shoulders above Henderson and Gerrard last night. I was particularly disappointed with Hendo's contribution to the second half.

Yeah, me too. I'm usually quite critical of Henderson but his first-half performance was nothing short of brilliant. Dunno what happened. Is it that we're young (too young?) seeing as so many of our players seems to fade after 55-60 minutes (e.g. Sterling, Coutinho, Sturridge, Henderson). Remember last season where we usually played brilliant in the first half just to virtually collapse in the second?
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2014, 02:48:49 PM »
Johnson wasn't that good but I don't like this discourse that surround everything he does. Some people (not here) would probably blame him for Moreno's mistake. And I don't think for one second Flanagan is proper replacement.

It's rather sad when "fans" are actually glad the guy's injured. It may be frustrating seeing his name on the team sheet, and his effort and application, both last season and so far this, his been far below what is required, but to be glad he got injured as a way of him definitely not playing is just wrong. All ways around.

What is disappointing is that as one of the most experienced and senior players he should offer much more and understand that when playing in a team with a lot of younger players you need to be a mentor and leader on the pitch and be prepared for errors which inexperience brings.

Flanno did very well, especially out of position, but it's rare to very a young defender who plays like an old pro, or who has both the positional aspect, the reading of the game and the knowledge of when to hold, when to commit etc and has the level of concentration required for every minute of the 90 and doesn't get caught ball watching or back on his heels at least once during a game.
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2014, 03:35:00 PM »
Yeah, me too. I'm usually quite critical of Henderson but his first-half performance was nothing short of brilliant. Dunno what happened. Is it that we're young (too young?) seeing as so many of our players seems to fade after 55-60 minutes (e.g. Sterling, Coutinho, Sturridge, Henderson). Remember last season where we usually played brilliant in the first half just to virtually collapse in the second?

I think steadiness of mind and ability to keep focus and concentration levels consistently high is something that just comes and happens with age, experience and maturity.

I think we still lack a real leader, not the lead by example sort, but an organiser, an encourager, a cajoler, a coach on the pitch, someone who talks the younger players through difficult moments and helps them keep their focus and intensity levels up. I see a lot of parallels between us and Arsenal post Viera and Gilberto Silva, where despite the talent and potential, they missed a leader and lacked a certain physical presence in midfield and compatible and high enough quality in defence and in goal.

The Mancs are going to struggle sans Ferdinand and Vidic, Chelsea soon will need to pull a replacement for Terry from somewhere. City have the quality of Kompany and the experience and guile of Demichelis.

Both City and Chelsea build from a position of strength that has been assembled over time and with plenty of money. We had a squad core and nothing else, so we're playing catch up in terms of depth, trying to add numbers whilst not diluting quality. We can't buy from the very top shelf to build a core squad of 16 and then expand the squad by upgrading, again from the very top shelf. We can't pay potential third and fourth choices the consolation salary of 3x or 4x what they're getting at their present clubs. Look at the choice of forwards City have. The wage bill for them alone must be eye watering.

We haven't been able to expand the squad with 9x £20M+ finished or near finished articles and we can't go adding a £20M+ centre half or full back every year until we get what we want.

Losing Suarez and needing to expand the squad means we have to make this season one of solidifying. We massively overachieved last season. It's only realistic to expect a more true levelling to occur this season, rather than going one better and winning the league. That in itself is real progress. To qualify for the CL (or a qualifier) two seasons running, whilst dealing with the demands of the CL isn't something we've dealt with as a club for a good few seasons, so is it realistic to suddenly expect that we challenge aggressively, going one better and winning the league, whilst also acclimatising to the different demands of CL and the travel involved?

City, having spent more than us didn't just go straight into the CL places and then leapfrog to the top of the league the following season despite adding players of a quality level we realistically still can't hope to afford.

The squad Ranieri left was better than the one Dalglish/Comolli left for Ambramovich and Mourinho to build on, and to think Chelsea could afford to pay £24M for Wright-Phillips to be the club mascot. £24M back then!!!!

I know it's an unpopular idea, but like Bart referred to, Gerrard with the status he rightfully holds will be a brake on progress at it's hard for Rodgers to be 'the manager that binned Steven Gerrard'.
Paisley had the credit of league titles, UEFA and European Cups in the bank when he swiftly dispatched the likes of Emlyn Hughes and Tommy Smith etc, Phil Thompson also as the local lad made good who went onto to captain the idols of his boyhood. He had the luxury of being able to acquire a player in the mould of Dalglish to replace Keegan. Paisley, a bit like Rodgers, had notice the previous Summer that a replacement was required. Unfortunately there is neither a like for like replacement, and even less so, a player that could take us to even greater heights than Suarez helped us to last season.

Being a Liverpool fan beats any rollercoaster ride any American theme park can come up with.   ;D
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Offline Edward224

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2014, 05:52:40 PM »
"Bring back Steve Clarke"

I need to rant and I apologise in advance to those advocating bringing back Steve Clarke or what you perceive as a "Defensive Coach".

This isn't American Football where you have the head coach, defensive coach and offensive coach.

In Football there is just plain and simple COACHES. Of course you have coaches that are offensive MINDED and defensive MINDED.

Every coach has methods they like to use and those methods are used to define a system or tactics used in a game.

For us having a coach who is an expert on defence is pointless, but because the whole training system would have to change. You can't just do a "bit" of defending. You have to do defending every single week, allied to the system, and connected to the attack.

A defensive coach effectively means we need a new manager.

I think each one of our defenders have different principles when it comes to defending by the look of yesterdays game. But it should be easily remedied by having fixed drills and training sessions. But Rodgers must rectify this by doing that.

If we want to win the league, though, we have to score goals. That means being more open at the back than some of you would like. That is a fact whether you like it or not. To win the league you need to score goals - and I mean over 80 goals at the very least.

By all means we could hire a defensive minded manager ala GH or Rafa but we didn't win the league under either of those two because we didn't score goals. Of course we won trophies but in the league both failed.

There's a lot wrong with our defending, and our defensive coaching but from what I can see it can be easily fixed and I hope Brendan can see that.

Oh also I seem to remember Arsenal hiring Steve Bould to supposedly help their defensive issues. But did he?

After all, Arsenal are no better or worse than before they hired Steve Bould.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2014, 07:03:40 PM »
"Bring back Steve Clarke"

I need to rant and I apologise in advance to those advocating bringing back Steve Clarke or what you perceive as a "Defensive Coach".

This isn't American Football where you have the head coach, defensive coach and offensive coach.

In Football there is just plain and simple COACHES. Of course you have coaches that are offensive MINDED and defensive MINDED.

Every coach has methods they like to use and those methods are used to define a system or tactics used in a game.

For us having a coach who is an expert on defence is pointless, but because the whole training system would have to change. You can't just do a "bit" of defending. You have to do defending every single week, allied to the system, and connected to the attack.

A defensive coach effectively means we need a new manager.

I think each one of our defenders have different principles when it comes to defending by the look of yesterdays game. But it should be easily remedied by having fixed drills and training sessions. But Rodgers must rectify this by doing that.

If we want to win the league, though, we have to score goals. That means being more open at the back than some of you would like. That is a fact whether you like it or not. To win the league you need to score goals - and I mean over 80 goals at the very least.

By all means we could hire a defensive minded manager ala GH or Rafa but we didn't win the league under either of those two because we didn't score goals. Of course we won trophies but in the league both failed.

There's a lot wrong with our defending, and our defensive coaching but from what I can see it can be easily fixed and I hope Brendan can see that.

Oh also I seem to remember Arsenal hiring Steve Bould to supposedly help their defensive issues. But did he?

After all, Arsenal are no better or worse than before they hired Steve Bould.

Far too black and white. It is obvious, for those who care to look and face up to what they see, that into his third season here, our manager's tactics, philosophy, training ground drills, etc whilst producing polished attacking, that looks slick and well practised, everyone sure of their place and role and confidence surging through the team, the defensive side of our game, the entire defensive side of our game, not just the right and left back, two centre halves and goalkeeper, but the entire side of the our game, our method, our playing style, call it what you want, ain't working. It is as poor as our attacking and in possession play is good. It's night and day.

Edward, if you truly think there is any analogy to be made with Yankee Rugby, a point you've tried to throw at us before, then I'm truly stumped. The manager and his team of coaches, collectively, individually, however it's not happening, do not appear to have either the ability to coach or the ability to get a message, that could work if understood, across to the players, like they are with, shall we call it, 'the non-defensive aspects off our game'.

As you the coaches and manager should collectively and individually be able to coach all the aspects of the game, so when combined, effective football is the result.

There is a void in the skill set. Why would all the other coaches and Rodgers coach as they are now whilst Steve Clarke would coach in isolation. Why can't he fit into the current system but with his strength lying in a different area to those within the current set-up.

The crux of your counter argument is your perception of what you think people perceive a 'defensive coach' to be. Maybe the term 'defensive coach' needs altering so it isn't taken at absolute face value and in it's most simplistic meaning.

Also this being able to defend means you won't score goals argument. Look at last season's league table. Explain to me how Man City managed to score more than us and concede 13 less.

The numbers of goals scored and goals conceded are irrelevant in isolation. It's how they translate into results.

One less goal conceded against Everton away, Chelsea away, and City away, and one more conceded against Hull away, Cardiff away and Stoke away would have rendered 4 more points, though the totals of goals scored and conceded remain the same.

"You can't just do a "bit" of defending." - You're trying to ridicule and counter an argument that hasn't even been made and I've never seen anybody advocating or making.

"But it should be easily remedied by having fixed drills and training sessions." - so are you saying that's not being done. If so, that's gross negligence and our manager needs a bullet (which I'm not advocating or wanting at all). So we have to presume they are being done. But to what positive effect? So maybe those "fixed drills and training sessions" need to be taken by someone who will actually produce a positive end result on the pitch, or they need to be changed and modified, because either way, "they just ain't working".

Re your Rafa/Houllier example - I'll give you Roy Evans. That didn't work either.

"There's a lot wrong with our defending, and our defensive coaching but from what I can see it can be easily fixed and I hope Brendan can see that." - the first part we all agree with, can see and is absolute and indisputable fact. Upon the same page we all dwell. And the second part. Snap. If I could have a genie grant me a wish it would be that.

So either Brendan can't see it or he can and chooses to ignore it or he can but either doesn't know how to fix it, or however he has approached the solution it hasn't and isn't working. It didn't at Swansea, it didn't in his first two seasons with us and there is no evidence going into the third of it doing so either.

We all know something needs to change. It has been that way since day one of his reign, which is perfectly understandable as players get used to him and his methods and he gets used to the players at his disposal.
I can understand it remaining the same if he had to make do with the same personnel as he did on day one, and had simply had no chance to change any of them. I'd fully understand that scenario and have every sympathy with him and for him.
But that's simply not the case.

Edward, I'm not having a pop, and I don't want to dismantle your argument for the sake of it, and I'm not disagreeing for the Hell of it, or because the manager's name is A, B or C. It's not about personalities in any way, simply the team that represents Liverpool Football Club can't defend anywhere near the required for what we all hope to achieve, and this is not a new thing but neither does it show any sign of improving into season 3.
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #74 on: August 27, 2014, 03:37:26 PM »
Far too black and white. It is obvious, for those who care to look and face up to what they see, that into his third season here, our manager's tactics, philosophy, training ground drills, etc whilst producing polished attacking, that looks slick and well practised, everyone sure of their place and role and confidence surging through the team, the defensive side of our game, the entire defensive side of our game, not just the right and left back, two centre halves and goalkeeper, but the entire side of the our game, our method, our playing style, call it what you want, ain't working. It is as poor as our attacking and in possession play is good. It's night and day.

Edward, if you truly think there is any analogy to be made with Yankee Rugby, a point you've tried to throw at us before, then I'm truly stumped. The manager and his team of coaches, collectively, individually, however it's not happening, do not appear to have either the ability to coach or the ability to get a message, that could work if understood, across to the players, like they are with, shall we call it, 'the non-defensive aspects off our game'.

As you the coaches and manager should collectively and individually be able to coach all the aspects of the game, so when combined, effective football is the result.

There is a void in the skill set. Why would all the other coaches and Rodgers coach as they are now whilst Steve Clarke would coach in isolation. Why can't he fit into the current system but with his strength lying in a different area to those within the current set-up.

The crux of your counter argument is your perception of what you think people perceive a 'defensive coach' to be. Maybe the term 'defensive coach' needs altering so it isn't taken at absolute face value and in it's most simplistic meaning.

Also this being able to defend means you won't score goals argument. Look at last season's league table. Explain to me how Man City managed to score more than us and concede 13 less.

The numbers of goals scored and goals conceded are irrelevant in isolation. It's how they translate into results.

One less goal conceded against Everton away, Chelsea away, and City away, and one more conceded against Hull away, Cardiff away and Stoke away would have rendered 4 more points, though the totals of goals scored and conceded remain the same.

"You can't just do a "bit" of defending." - You're trying to ridicule and counter an argument that hasn't even been made and I've never seen anybody advocating or making.

"But it should be easily remedied by having fixed drills and training sessions." - so are you saying that's not being done. If so, that's gross negligence and our manager needs a bullet (which I'm not advocating or wanting at all). So we have to presume they are being done. But to what positive effect? So maybe those "fixed drills and training sessions" need to be taken by someone who will actually produce a positive end result on the pitch, or they need to be changed and modified, because either way, "they just ain't working".

Re your Rafa/Houllier example - I'll give you Roy Evans. That didn't work either.

"There's a lot wrong with our defending, and our defensive coaching but from what I can see it can be easily fixed and I hope Brendan can see that." - the first part we all agree with, can see and is absolute and indisputable fact. Upon the same page we all dwell. And the second part. Snap. If I could have a genie grant me a wish it would be that.

So either Brendan can't see it or he can and chooses to ignore it or he can but either doesn't know how to fix it, or however he has approached the solution it hasn't and isn't working. It didn't at Swansea, it didn't in his first two seasons with us and there is no evidence going into the third of it doing so either.

We all know something needs to change. It has been that way since day one of his reign, which is perfectly understandable as players get used to him and his methods and he gets used to the players at his disposal.
I can understand it remaining the same if he had to make do with the same personnel as he did on day one, and had simply had no chance to change any of them. I'd fully understand that scenario and have every sympathy with him and for him.
But that's simply not the case.

Edward, I'm not having a pop, and I don't want to dismantle your argument for the sake of it, and I'm not disagreeing for the Hell of it, or because the manager's name is A, B or C. It's not about personalities in any way, simply the team that represents Liverpool Football Club can't defend anywhere near the required for what we all hope to achieve, and this is not a new thing but neither does it show any sign of improving into season 3.

Wow, that's one hell of a post. Very well put and argued tes. Even I, one of Rodgers staunchest advocates, am slowly starting to think he may not have what it takes to keep the goals coming and reducing the influx at the other end. I am willing though, to give Lovren and Moreno some time, of course but what really upsets me is his persitence with keeping Sakho on the bench.

I find it peculiar that so many people criticize Johnson for his performance on Monday but ultimately fail to direct any criticism towards Lovren despite being partly/heavily responsible for all their goals. The way I see it he had a stinker. Edward may be right though, and Neville seems to agree, those errors aren't particularly difficult to correct. Lets hope so.

More interesting is the team's ability to defend, rather than the back 4. For the opening 35 minutes we displayed a very composed, disciplined and focused defensive game. We gave away nothing, absolutely nothing. Then they put us under siege for two minutes and that was enough for us to commit a series of silly mistakes. I don't know, but playing 4-3-3 requires immense physical energy and a work rate that makes Kuyt look lazy. Even my manc mate said: "I do wonder if you're gonna be able to play this game for 90 minutes seeing as it builds on the premise Sterling and Coutinho both attacks and defend.". It turned out, much to my pain, he was right. This 4-3-3 seems to make us so God damned vulnerable down the flanks which means our CB's need to play closer to the FB increasing the space for opponents to attack through the middle.

I don't know, but with Balotelli in the boat, Sturridge not ready to be the sole leader up front, I could see us go with 4-4-2 for a while. Surely that would help us develop and improve our defensive game.
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.