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Author Topic: Season 2014/15  (Read 269418 times)

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #240 on: September 27, 2014, 08:12:11 PM »
Markovic. Absolutely terrible.

Going on form and contribution, surely Suso now deserves a start ahead of Markovic. Who knows, we might even save ourselves another £20M next Summer by giving Suso a run and getting him to sign a new contract, even if it's only a couple of years at this stage.

Maybe we could find Markovic a loan in January to another PL team that actually tries to play football, a Southampton or a Villa.

I know we paid an huge fee form him and it sees a bit off sending a £20M priced tagged player out on loan, but I get the feeling we didn't pay £20M for what he's got now. This is another 'investment for the future'.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 08:15:46 PM by Tes »
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #241 on: September 27, 2014, 08:13:51 PM »
Your first sentence pretty much sums it up for me. Most of our transfer business has been unimaginative and uninspiring over the past two Summers. The first Summer I'm happy enough to put down to a new manager coming in and not knowing what he had and what he needed, which will always be the case.

Why did someone at the club think it was a good idea to bring in Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows from City?
City of all places. A club that has just gone out and paid however much was required to buy all the known players they have since the new owners came in. Even Chelsea at least have scouted and brought in some 'lesser names' and assembled quite a few excellent young players over the last 5 or 6 years.

Our budget buys have been total duds. We've been buying the likes or Ilori and Alberto and now Markovic as players for the future (I think), when we're not at a stage where we can do that. We've handsomely overpaid time and again, and now matter how much or little (Assaidi) we've paid, it keeps proving to be very poor value, both in monetary and footballing terms.

Was there a planned list for the scenario of Suarez staying, another if he left, yes he really was that important to warrant such an approach, or have we just carried on 'regardless', because where was the plan to deal with his leaving? We cast around cluelessly and desperately to get a striker, any striker, even though the writing was clearly on the wall after last Summer and with the definitive clause in his new contract in December, yet we've acted like we were taken totally by surprise by him leaving. If Balotelli was the answer then it required a different way of playing to utilise his strengths as he doesn't really fit into the way we played last season. And if we therefore require a different approach, have we bought players to suit that different approach, or does Balotelli just get shoehorned in and hope it works?

Was Markovic, Lovren and Lallana really the best we could get for the fees paid? And what about midfield? Too few goals, too little creation unless we can hit teams quick on the break, or win the game in the first 20 minutes and where's the defensive protection? Relying on a back four that's quite often a back two when you send your full backs marauding forward at the same time, is mindless stupidity, boarding on negligence.

The sheer amount of players brought in is also a problem. Whilst I agree that we were short on numbers and we discussed the fact we only had a core of 13-16 players who were of the standard required, by bringing in large numbers to bulk up squad numbers, you can undermine the very thing you're trying to strengthen - the first 11 selected on any day. Afterall, the squad is there to funnel down to create the strongest and most suitable first 11 (and bench) possible for any given match. In trying to strengthen the squad numbers we've arguably weakened the best first 11s we can put out.

As much as it hurts, I second every word of that Tes. It seems whatever progress we've made over the last 18 months is completely gone and it is in no small part due to the fact we've failed to get the right players in. Lallana I really think is improving over the last two games and could come good. Also, we bought him about a month before we sold Suarez.

I'm totally down and out. I had this niggling feeling all summer we'd suffer some sort of reaction, but I could never imagine we would lose every aspect of our game so rapidly. Rodgers, as much as I hate to admit it, seems totally found out no matter who we play. Nor does it help he wouldn't recognise his best XI if it jumped up and bit his balls. He had a golden opportunity to build on Sakho/Enrique but chose to alienate both players.

It just hurts to see this house of cards collapsing.
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #242 on: September 27, 2014, 08:36:54 PM »
It's early days I know but I'm seriously wondering whether Rodgers have what it takes? My feeling is he doesn't. No knee-jerkreaction, just looking at how disjointed and lethargic we look this season.
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #243 on: September 27, 2014, 09:20:01 PM »
As much as it hurts, I second every word of that Tes. It seems whatever progress we've made over the last 18 months is completely gone and it is in no small part due to the fact we've failed to get the right players in. Lallana I really think is improving over the last two games and could come good. Also, we bought him about a month before we sold Suarez.

I'm totally down and out. I had this niggling feeling all summer we'd suffer some sort of reaction, but I could never imagine we would lose every aspect of our game so rapidly. Rodgers, as much as I hate to admit it, seems totally found out no matter who we play. Nor does it help he wouldn't recognise his best XI if it jumped up and bit his balls. He had a golden opportunity to build on Sakho/Enrique but chose to alienate both players.

It just hurts to see this house of cards collapsing.

To carry on the theme of our transfer business:

Liverpool are broken, says manager Brendan Rodgers

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29364830

Liverpool manager Brendan Rodgers has admitted his team are a "little bit broken" after three defeats in their first five Premier League matches.

Rodgers, whose side are 11th in the table, said
the introduction of new players had disrupted his philosophy.

"We're reintroducing the principles that brought us the win ratio we've had over the last 18 months," he said.

"Our game was based on high intensity but, apart from that Tottenham game, we've moved away from that."


Liverpool beat Tottenham 3-0 at White Hart Lane on 31 August, but have since lost two successive league games, to Aston Villa and West Ham.

They were also unconvincing in recent victories over Champions League opponents Ludogorets Razgrad and Middlesbrough in the Capital One Cup on Tuesday.

Faltering Liverpool

Liverpool lost three of their opening five league games two seasons ago. It previously happened in 1959, when they were a Second Division club.

The Anfield side had the majority of possession (62%) at Upton Park but West Ham had more shots, 13 in total and seven on target.

Mario Balotelli has not scored a Premier League goal since November 2012.

"We put in a lot of hard work in the first six months to a year we were here, and a lot of those processes became natural," added the Northern Irishman, who joined the club in 2012. "The consequence of that was winning.


"But we introduced a raft of new players - you lose the core of players who were important, and that's obviously a factor and then it becomes a bit broken.

"That's how our game has looked for a big part of the season, but I have a group of players here who identify with that.


"We need to get back and refocus on what has allowed us win games consistently over the last 18 months to two years."

Liverpool finished second last season, two points adrift of eventual champions Manchester City, but over the summer sold top scorer Luis Suarez and brought in nine players.

 Rodgers also said injuries, notably to striker Daniel Sturridge, had not helped the team's cause.

The 41-year-old said he would continue to assess Sturridge's fitness before deciding whether to include the England striker in the squad for Saturday's Merseyside derby at Anfield.

"He's someone who responds well to treatment," said Rodgers of the 25-year-old, who strained his thigh while on international duty.

"He's out on the field but there's still a couple of days to go before the game. He certainly won't be match fit but it'll be great to have him back because he's a wonderful player for us.

"We'll be very happy to have him back and we're hoping that can be this weekend, but we'll assess over the next couple of days."

On speculation linking England teenager Raheem Sterling with Real Madrid,   Rodgers said he was unconcerned.

"It shows that he's obviously playing exceptionally well," he said of the 19-year-old.

"I think you could link Raheem with every club in the world at the moment, He's a fantastic young talent. I sit easy with it."




The parts in bold I think are the most relevant and interesting parts. Surely if you have a 'philosophy' or method/style, you bring in players who fit that and can enhance, rather than disrupt it. Likewise, if introducing a certain number of faces means that "you lose the core of players who were important", (though I don't understand that. Only Suarez has left. I think he may have misphrased it) then surely you make sure you don't 'dilute' things down to that level.

Last season our strength was our attack and our obvious achilles heel was the defensive side. So the latter should have been the focus and priority, and not just the back four. Gerrard was never going to be able to play 38 league games  + CL matches this season. He was 'out of it' and the end of last season, and this would only become worse, and that's before we even consider his suitability or otherwise for the position.

So is Can supposed to be the entire solution to that?

With Suarez leaving (though hardly a shock), we then had another priority - replacing his goals and creation. However a part of the Suarez conundrum would be addressed by sorting out the priority of defending. Conceding fewer would see us needing to score fewer.

Have we really addressed either priority, or have we done it in a half hearted fashion by bringing in other players that weren't priority? As Edward says, however good or otherwise Balotelli is, he's not the right type of striker and doesn't fit into the team easily. Is that an indicator in itself of the lack of planning for Suarez's (eventual) inevitable departure?

The more players you bring in the greater risk of instability. Also by targeting so many can focus on suitability be diluted also, as your focus is spread much thinner?

Was Balotelli partly ego driven. Suarez has improved since Rodgers has been here. That's beyond dispute. Also, he was superbly behaved last season (at least whilst playing for us) and having channeled Suarez's energies and personality in the right way, did he want to prove that he could succeed in taming the beast of Balotelli where other more experienced managers had failed? He certainly seems to have a need for his 'abilities' to be recognised and never fails to mention his 'extensive' experience as a coach. Did last season go to his head somewhat? Early success can have a warping effect like that.

I'm not trying to do a character assassination on Rodgers, just putting things out there and trying to understand what was behind the whos and whys of our transfer dealings this Summer, as Rodgers in that interview seems to be casting some doubts on certain aspects of them.   
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #244 on: September 27, 2014, 10:06:42 PM »
It's early days I know but I'm seriously wondering whether Rodgers have what it takes? My feeling is he doesn't. No knee-jerkreaction, just looking at how disjointed and lethargic we look this season.

Maybe he's tried to introduce too many too soon. It was the mistake ultimately that Spurs made. Sometimes you have to let the mortar set on the first few courses before you add the next few.

You can't expand and improve the squad overall if it dilutes the starting 11 in any way. You're better off adding the required numbers more slowly and reducing the chances of the disjointedness we've seen so far this season, even if we have to run on a more 'compact' squad again this season than maybe we'd like.
Spread the focus between the league and CL until we've got out of the group, thereby securing a knock out tie and two more games and then focus on the PL from that point forward for the rest of the season and ensure we're back in the competition again next season. Then we add another layer of expansion (2 or 3 more) and go again.
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #245 on: September 27, 2014, 10:19:11 PM »
Maybe he's tried to introduce too many too soon. It was the mistake ultimately that Spurs made. Sometimes you have to let the mortar set on the first few courses before you add the next few.

You can't expand and improve the squad overall if it dilutes the starting 11 in any way. You're better off adding the required numbers more slowly and reducing the chances of the disjointedness we've seen so far this season, even if we have to run on a more 'compact' squad again this season than maybe we'd like.
Spread the focus between the league and CL until we've got out of the group, thereby securing a knock out tie and two more games and then focus on the PL from that point forward for the rest of the season and ensure we're back in the competition again next season. Then we add another layer of expansion (2 or 3 more) and go again.

I agree with that although injuries haven't helped. The main flaw though, is, the way I see it, our refusal to appreciate the value of having a world-class player in the squad. That's why I fear the Scum will replace us at the top-4 this season.
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #246 on: September 28, 2014, 01:19:41 AM »
I agree with that although injuries haven't helped. The main flaw though, is, the way I see it, our refusal to appreciate the value of having a world-class player in the squad. That's why I fear the Scum will replace us at the top-4 this season.

Contracts seem to count for nothing now, Martin. It's really hard for club's to keep players against their will. What I'm more concerned about is our apparent lack of a plan for when he left. By having that £75M clause inserted into his contract, and one that was obviously far more watertight than the previous £40M one, it was nailed one he would be leaving.
Whether we like it or not, the owners would also have been thinking about the effect it would have on our sponsors and how it could affect both existing and potential ones.
We have to accept that if we want the play to pay the ridiculous transfer fees and wages that are the norm, then we have to accept the importance that the revenue from sponsors and partners plays in that, and our ability to attract and be able to renew lucrative deals with them. 
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #247 on: September 28, 2014, 01:22:43 AM »
I hear Sakho stormed out of the dressing room after being dropped and I totally understand him.

It would seem that Rodgers doesn't rate him, which if it is the case, and he probably wasn't one of his 'choices', then what are we doing allowing the transfer committee to spend £18M+ on a player that the manager isn't 100% with.
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #248 on: September 28, 2014, 01:26:14 AM »
Sterling needs REST! Liverpool's Rodgers asks Hodgson to drop star from England squad

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/516105/Raheem-Sterling-Liverpool-Brendan-Rodgers-England-Euro-2016

We've got more chance of signing Luis back for £25M in January than we have of that senile old duffer giving Raheem a rest. Look how he treated Sturridge.
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Offline barticus

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #249 on: September 28, 2014, 10:51:11 AM »
I notice Alonso has just broken a German record of touches on the ball. 206 to the previous record of Thiago's 187. Tragic that we didnt buy him for 5 mil..
I saw the game yesterday and i have to say at least we weren't quite as woeful as against west ham.
I thought lallana gets better and better and Henderson did well. Balotelli was ok but not getting much service and so having to create from out of nothing.
I think the 2 spanish fullbacks are a positive as well despite moreno's lapses. I'm hoping that they will stop as he becomes more accustomed with the league.
How Suso didnt start is beyond me and as Markovic didnt add anything to the game, his omission made it doubly bad.
Gerrard did well for the goal, but tired badly for the end of the game which is partly why we looked so nervous at the end.
A joke that Rodgers is asking Hodgson to rest Sterling when he plays him for 120 mins in the league cup.
Can is going to be out for at least another month but i'm hoping both allen and sturridge will be back asap and steady the ship somewhat.


Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #250 on: September 28, 2014, 12:25:37 PM »
I notice Alonso has just broken a German record of touches on the ball. 206 to the previous record of Thiago's 187. Tragic that we didnt buy him for 5 mil..
I saw the game yesterday and i have to say at least we weren't quite as woeful as against west ham.
I thought lallana gets better and better and Henderson did well. Balotelli was ok but not getting much service and so having to create from out of nothing.
I think the 2 spanish fullbacks are a positive as well despite moreno's lapses. I'm hoping that they will stop as he becomes more accustomed with the league.
How Suso didnt start is beyond me and as Markovic didnt add anything to the game, his omission made it doubly bad.
Gerrard did well for the goal, but tired badly for the end of the game which is partly why we looked so nervous at the end.
A joke that Rodgers is asking Hodgson to rest Sterling when he plays him for 120 mins in the league cup.
Can is going to be out for at least another month but i'm hoping both allen and sturridge will be back asap and steady the ship somewhat.

I agree with all of that Bart, except the bit about the National team. I don't want our players playing for that fossil as he can't respect the specialist training schedules we provide.

Whatever Rodgers says about giving players a chance and selections are based on form/merit it seems to apply to some more than others, and not apply either way to other players.

It's going to be a huge mistake to lose Suso on a free. He's not going to be a truly world class but he definitely has something to offer. The purchase of Alberto and loaning of Suso last Summer made no sense, and choosing to spend £20M on Markovic without giving Suso a chance to see if the season out on loan had helped developed him made just as little.
Utilising Suso would also mean having an additional player to what we had last season but without the need for any of the settling in. Based on what they've both shown in pre-season and the little they've played, Suso was the more deserving of the start yesterday than Markovic.

Where's the motivation for a player if he comes in and does well, only to be dropped again in favour of someone out of form? Not only did he score against Boro, he scored both his penalties, and let's remember, he is still only 20, the same age as Markovic, but the age aspect seems only to be used in the favour of one of the two.   
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #251 on: September 28, 2014, 06:50:01 PM »
I agree with all of that Bart, except the bit about the National team. I don't want our players playing for that fossil as he can't respect the specialist training schedules we provide.

Whatever Rodgers says about giving players a chance and selections are based on form/merit it seems to apply to some more than others, and not apply either way to other players.

It's going to be a huge mistake to lose Suso on a free. He's not going to be a truly world class but he definitely has something to offer. The purchase of Alberto and loaning of Suso last Summer made no sense, and choosing to spend £20M on Markovic without giving Suso a chance to see if the season out on loan had helped developed him made just as little.
Utilising Suso would also mean having an additional player to what we had last season but without the need for any of the settling in. Based on what they've both shown in pre-season and the little they've played, Suso was the more deserving of the start yesterday than Markovic.

Where's the motivation for a player if he comes in and does well, only to be dropped again in favour of someone out of form? Not only did he score against Boro, he scored both his penalties, and let's remember, he is still only 20, the same age as Markovic, but the age aspect seems only to be used in the favour of one of the two.

This is exactly why I think Rodgers have lost the plot. Too many inconsistencies and contradictions in his leadership.

His treating of Sakho fills me both with anger and despise. He's one of the best under 25 CB's in Europe and gets treated like crap - hell, even good old Djimi who never hit the ball right in his 3 seasons with us got a better treatment. We should be happy and proud to have such a talented player at our club.
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #252 on: September 29, 2014, 11:29:18 AM »
This is exactly why I think Rodgers have lost the plot. Too many inconsistencies and contradictions in his leadership.

Cheer up, Martin, it could be worse. We could have a hugely inexperienced manager with only 3 seasons' top flight managerial experience and a 'yes man', instead of strong and influential coach, as his assistant, in charge of us.
















































































































































































Oh, sh!t, we have. Press that big red button marked 'Panic'.  ;D
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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #253 on: September 29, 2014, 01:00:08 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D

On a sidenote, my manc mate can't believe the treatment of Sakho at Liverpool. He has it he would probably play for any topside in Europe bar possibly PSG and Bayern. So when rivals fans can see what Rodgers can't, then it's bad.
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Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #254 on: September 29, 2014, 02:11:14 PM »
;D ;D ;D

On a sidenote, my manc mate can't believe the treatment of Sakho at Liverpool. He has it he would probably play for any topside in Europe bar possibly PSG and Bayern. So when rivals fans can see what Rodgers can't, then it's bad.

I'm becoming more convinced that it was a 'committee signing' rather than Rodgers' own personal choice.

This whole committee thing and how it works seems a bit hazy.
Does the manager separately and/or as part of the committee put forward targets for the financial side of any deal to be considered and if approved we attempt to sign that player?
Or is there a list of targets put forward by the manager, and another by the committee, or does the manager put forward his list of targets and they're considered by the committee in both footballing and financial terms and those approved we try and buy?
Can anybody as part of the committee, in addition to the manager, put forward a player for consideration - ie, Dave Fallows is part of the committee. If he or Barry Hunter (the chief scout) have a player in mind they think is suitable, but Rodgers disagrees, can Fallows still put the name forward for consideration, thereby going over the manager's head?
Can the committee not approve a player on footballing grounds, even though the manager thinks he's suitable?

As far as I'm concerned the manager HAS to have final say on any player signed, at least from a footballing perspective, and from a finance one, the manager's valuation should be the one taken for consideration, as it's up to the manager how he uses the available transfer funds. Also the manager should have an input on the salary level. The manager may not want a certain player on a certain level of salary, especially younger players. Rodgers is known  not to favour giving young players a large basic, but instead have a low basic, heavily incentivised by performance bonuses, with the option of regularly reviewing the basic salary level if the young player is maker a bigger and bigger contribution. Sterling being the ideal example of this.

Every player brought in and sold should be the manager's choice. He is the one that has to fashion a squad and team out of the collection of players at the club, and he is the one that pays with his job if players fail to settle, fit in and contribute to the team and performances and results suffer accordingly.
The only exception to that is when a player does something that brings the club into disrepute and could have a seriously negative knock on effect on the club's income and revenue.

There seems to be subtle, and not so subtle differences in the way players are treated. Players who were at the club before Rodgers arrived, with a few notable exceptions (Gerrard, Skrtel) seem to be treated the worse. Followed by 'committee signings' and his choices appear to be looked on more favourably.

Did Sakho deserve to be dropped in favour of Skrtel coming straight back in and replacing Lovren as the right sided centre half, and then Lovren replacing him as the left sided centre half?
Has Lovren been a better left sided centre half this season than Sakho? Has Skrtel been the best right sided centre half (including Lovren)? Are Skrtel and Lovren really the two most in form centre halves at the club?
Is their collective 'qualities' the most suitable blend?

Whichever way around it is, Rodgers now needs to stick with a pairing (injuries permitting) and try and develop an understanding between the two.
Sakho's had two partners, likewise Skrtel and Lovren and Lovren's had two positions also. However, based on form, is Skrtel/Lovren the best combination?
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.