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Author Topic: Season 2014/15  (Read 203507 times)

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #600 on: November 24, 2014, 06:10:10 PM »
the day Rafa told Xabi Alonso he couldn't be at the birth of his child and thus create that tension between the two
I thought it was the pursuit of Barry.

Anyway,  Rafa had to go at the time, the club was toxic,
everyone at war.

There was a certain logic, albeit desperate, to the
appointment of Hodgson. It was only ever a temporary
arrangement.

There was a certain logic, albeit desparate, to the appointment
of Kenny. It was only ever a temporary arrangement. I
supported Kenny because he's Kenny and to his credit he
got us to 2 cup finals and back in Europe.

There was a certain logic to the idea of appointing of Rodgers.
Originally it seemed he would be more of a coach with a
DF doing the strategic thinking.

The problem arose when the plucky young Irishman, flavour of
the month at the time, rejected that outright.

So now we are where we are, more than £100 million blown
over the Summer and yet fielding a b-team at one of the most
iconic stadiums in Europe. Southampton, 11 points above us in
the table, an injury-prone 1st striker and basket-case 2nd striker.

The f**king irony is that if we'd stuck with the DF idea (or appointed
a real manager) in the first place, dismissing Rodgers would be
relatively easy if he can't arrest the £100 million slump.

The arguments might be different if he had actually bought Luis
Suarez, but that piece of business was conducted by Damien
Comolli.

He is entitled as a manager of a football club to go through a
period of poor results, but it's the signings + the inability to
turn average players into anything but average + the
complete absence of young players coming through which
will weigh heavily against him unless he does exactly what
is expected of the manager of LFC and turn things around.

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #601 on: November 24, 2014, 07:04:18 PM »
I thought it was the pursuit of Barry.

Anyway,  Rafa had to go at the time, the club was toxic,
everyone at war.

There was a certain logic, albeit desperate, to the
appointment of Hodgson. It was only ever a temporary
arrangement.

There was a certain logic, albeit desparate, to the appointment
of Kenny. It was only ever a temporary arrangement. I
supported Kenny because he's Kenny and to his credit he
got us to 2 cup finals and back in Europe.

There was a certain logic to the idea of appointing of Rodgers.
Originally it seemed he would be more of a coach with a
DF doing the strategic thinking.

The problem arose when the plucky young Irishman, flavour of
the month at the time, rejected that outright.

So now we are where we are, more than £100 million blown
over the Summer and yet fielding a b-team at one of the most
iconic stadiums in Europe. Southampton, 11 points above us in
the table, an injury-prone 1st striker and basket-case 2nd striker.

The f**king irony is that if we'd stuck with the DF idea (or appointed
a real manager) in the first place, dismissing Rodgers would be
relatively easy if he can't arrest the £100 million slump.

The arguments might be different if he had actually bought Luis
Suarez, but that piece of business was conducted by Damien
Comolli.

He is entitled as a manager of a football club to go through a
period of poor results, but it's the signings + the inability to
turn average players into anything but average + the
complete absence of young players coming through which
will weigh heavily against him unless he does exactly what
is expected of the manager of LFC and turn things around.

Very good poins there indeed Ed. No one was happier than me when the news broke we appointed Rafa. I couldn't believe we got hold of the manager who played some of the best footy I've seen to this date with his Valencia. I was very very supportive of him for the first 3 seasons. But going into the 07/08 season his hard-core scientific approach started to show negative signs. There was no flair, no camaridere, no desperation. Just 11 robots sticking to what they've been assigned. At this time it also became apparent he would always rate the CL above the PL. He would settle for a draw at Stoke (not the same Stoke as today mind) just to play his strongest team in a relatively poinless CL-game a few days later. He fell out with Paco. He alienated arguably one the best midfilders to ever put on a red shirt, he made many enemies inside and outside the club. I don't suggest you need to be everybody's bessies mate but you ought to know you can't take every conflict in life. The first half of his stint was brilliant, the second half disastrous for the club as there's no doubt in my mind he put himself Before the club when the club was very very vulnerable. I'll never forgive him for that, despite Istanbul (which was, IMHO, down to a crazy half he didn't had a lot of impact on either way, not taking anything away).

The same with Rodgers as with Rafa. I was very pleased upon his appointment. I also thought it was obvious there was progress being made constantly. Unfortunately, it all seem gone now. Maybe he was too young after all to take un a job on these premises at a club this big? I don't know. But it's obvious whateve strategy he had to build on last season's success has failed massively to put it mildly. I want him to turn it around. I want it so much. But in reality I don't think he can. The players look lost, the unity between players and the players and the manager seem to be completely gone. The team acts like they don't have the first clue. He persist to play a formation he doesn't have players for. There's so many problems to fix, half of it would be enough for a more experienced manager. If he somehow manage to turn it around I don't hold it beyond him to become the greatest manager ever to manage this club. But that's just wishful thinking I'm terribly afraid.
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline barticus

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #602 on: November 24, 2014, 09:39:29 PM »
Hmmm and now you're really opening the debate....

Very good poins there indeed Ed. No one was happier than me when the news broke we appointed Rafa. I couldn't believe we got hold of the manager who played some of the best footy I've seen to this date with his Valencia. I was very very supportive of him for the first 3 seasons.

Agreed, win the champs league final in Istanbul, The FA cup in 2006 and then get to another Champs league final in 2007. What's not to like?

But going into the 07/08 season his hard-core scientific approach started to show negative signs. There was no flair, no camaridere, no desperation. Just 11 robots sticking to what they've been assigned.


Hmmm, so the hardcore scientific approach showed signs of negativity? We'd just been in the Champs league final in may for chrissakes...sometimes you lose.

At this time it also became apparent he would always rate the CL above the PL. He would settle for a draw at Stoke (not the same Stoke as today mind) just to play his strongest team in a relatively poinless CL-game a few days later.

Maybe one of the reasons to prioritise the champs league was because of the 2 carpetbaggers hicks and gilette, who were spouting garbage all the time, working with them closely i would imagine rafa's alarm bells began to ring very early on....Also by prioritising we got to number 1 in europe which then attracts players and brings in more money than the prem league, thus enabling us to buy better players...there is method in the madness.

He fell out with Paco.

Yep, shed happens. It's life.

He alienated arguably one the best midfilders to ever put on a red shirt, he made many enemies inside and outside the club. I don't suggest you need to be everybody's bessies mate but you ought to know you can't take every conflict in life.

Absolutely, but then Alonso didnt have the greatest of seasons when rafa decided. It was only his last that was his greatest. But agreed, Rafa could have handled that far better.
Can you imagine what fergie would have done to the enemies inside? They would have been gone. No doubt.

...there's no doubt in my mind he put himself Before the club when the club was very very vulnerable. I'll never forgive him for that, despite Istanbul

Excuse me? How the f*** did Rafa put himself before the club when he had to deal with the daylight robbery of hicks and gilette??? He did everything in his power to save the club, despite them...Finally when it looked like they were never going to leave and he made the heinous act of ending up 3 points away from a champs league position in his final year, he then had enough.

:)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 09:41:11 PM by barticus »

Offline barticus

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #603 on: November 24, 2014, 09:53:23 PM »
What i also love about the enemies rumours is....

If it was Carra and Gerrard, then considering Carra's career was transformed by Benitez and Gerrard had his best moments ever in a Liverpool shirt, when playing behind Torres etc, it seems ironic that they stabbed him in the back, wanting an improved manager. They should have been careful what they wished for. They got Hodgson.

Offline Gurdeep

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #604 on: November 24, 2014, 10:31:29 PM »
Spot on with your reply#602 Barticus.
It's only when you see a mosquito landing on your testicles that you realize that there is always a way to solve a problem without using violence.!

Offline Edward224

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #605 on: November 24, 2014, 11:03:49 PM »
Hmmm and now you're really opening the debate....

Very good poins there indeed Ed. No one was happier than me when the news broke we appointed Rafa. I couldn't believe we got hold of the manager who played some of the best footy I've seen to this date with his Valencia. I was very very supportive of him for the first 3 seasons.

Agreed, win the champs league final in Istanbul, The FA cup in 2006 and then get to another Champs league final in 2007. What's not to like?

But going into the 07/08 season his hard-core scientific approach started to show negative signs. There was no flair, no camaridere, no desperation. Just 11 robots sticking to what they've been assigned.


Hmmm, so the hardcore scientific approach showed signs of negativity? We'd just been in the Champs league final in may for chrissakes...sometimes you lose.

In the league definite signs of negativity. We had the squad from 05 to 09 to challenge on more than one front. Rafa would rather settle for the point - at home to mid and lower table teams than take a risk, a gamble and get the three points. I'd rather win 1, draw 1 and lose 1 than draw 3. Rafa thinks differently and it started in 06/07 let alone 07/08. CL final is one of those things like you said.

At this time it also became apparent he would always rate the CL above the PL. He would settle for a draw at Stoke (not the same Stoke as today mind) just to play his strongest team in a relatively poinless CL-game a few days later.

Maybe one of the reasons to prioritise the champs league was because of the 2 carpetbaggers hicks and gilette, who were spouting garbage all the time, working with them closely i would imagine rafa's alarm bells began to ring very early on....Also by prioritising we got to number 1 in europe which then attracts players and brings in more money than the prem league, thus enabling us to buy better players...there is method in the madness.

Complete B.S. we had the squad to compete on two fronts. Easily. Rafa's mindset in PL games was the main reason we never challenged for the title. We only challenge in the latter stages of 09 because Rafa had NO OPTION but to change tact and allow the players to express themselves more rather than the robotic nature he went about a PL campaign. Of course working with those two scum bags in H&G would have his alarm bells ringing. But he still spent a huge amount on 07 and 08. We bought Keane for £20m. He had the resources. Then in 2009 he had to sell to buy. Being No.1 never attracted players though did it. Complete crap. Who did we attract when we were No1? Only Torres and he was never coveted at all by any major club. He targeted the CL because he knew his tactics worked better there than it did in the PL and would earn himself more kudos.

He fell out with Paco.

Yep, shed happens. It's life. Agreed but he replaced him inadequately

He alienated arguably one the best midfilders to ever put on a red shirt, he made many enemies inside and outside the club. I don't suggest you need to be everybody's bessies mate but you ought to know you can't take every conflict in life.

Absolutely, but then Alonso didnt have the greatest of seasons when rafa decided. It was only his last that was his greatest. But agreed, Rafa could have handled that far better.
Can you imagine what fergie would have done to the enemies inside? They would have been gone. No doubt. I agree Alonso wasn't great in 07/08 but previous seasons should have earnt him more credit in the bank in terms of going forward from then on. Fergie would never have attempted to replace Alonso, so moot point. Would fergie have stopped Alonso being at the birth of his child?

...there's no doubt in my mind he put himself Before the club when the club was very very vulnerable. I'll never forgive him for that, despite Istanbul

Excuse me? How the f*** did Rafa put himself before the club when he had to deal with the daylight robbery of hicks and gilette??? He did everything in his power to save the club, despite them...Finally when it looked like they were never going to leave and he made the heinous act of ending up 3 points away from a champs league position in his final year, he then had enough.

The only point I agree with you. He never put himself before the club. However I will caveat that by saying he wanted CL success more than PL success to earn himself more kudos. Only IMO. If he had FSG has owners in 2007 we'd be much better off now in terms of our infrastructure football wise. Do I think he did himself no favours by out right attacking H&G. Yes. We didn't sack him because of footballing reasons. The reason he left is because we wanted to sell the club in a state in which the manager and board were at peace with on another meaning we'd attract better offers. As all incoming people would not want to enter a minefield of a club to sort out.

:)

^ reply in bold.

But just like with Rafa Brendan has to show he has the balls to make tough decisions. He has to show he hasn't got the stubborness like Rafa had. However it is reaching a critical point and a bad result on Wednesday if we lose our next 2 or 3 league games then it could well be terminal for Brendan.

Against Ludogorets we really must start with Toure, Can, Lucas at the least.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 11:04:55 PM by Edward224 »

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #606 on: November 25, 2014, 10:15:08 AM »
He put himself before the club with his "fact" rant, with his Drogba video, with his demands Parry sholuld get the sack, despite having complete Control over transfers, for engaging in open conflict with the owners when the club was on the brink of collapsing. All these actions was to the benefit of Rafa and the harm of the club no matter how you feel about the man. He just didn't put the club first.
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Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #607 on: November 25, 2014, 11:49:51 AM »
Hmmm and now you're really opening the debate....

Very good poins there indeed Ed. No one was happier than me when the news broke we appointed Rafa. I couldn't believe we got hold of the manager who played some of the best footy I've seen to this date with his Valencia. I was very very supportive of him for the first 3 seasons.

Agreed, win the champs league final in Istanbul, The FA cup in 2006 and then get to another Champs league final in 2007. What's not to like?

...there's no doubt in my mind he put himself Before the club when the club was very very vulnerable. I'll never forgive him for that, despite Istanbul

Excuse me? How the f*** did Rafa put himself before the club when he had to deal with the daylight robbery of hicks and gilette??? He did everything in his power to save the club, despite them...Finally when it looked like they were never going to leave and he made the heinous act of ending up 3 points away from a champs league position in his final year, he then had enough.

 :)

excellent post, Barticus (I snipped it above for brevity in my reply).   

It's refreshing to see sanity in this forum.

We have spoilt children here, who didn't appreciate Benitez.  They did not appreciate the CL finals and the all the trophies.  They did not appreciate him taking us to number one ranked club in Europe.  They did not appreciate the top players that he was able to bring to Anfield.  But most of all - they did not appreciate the toxic (almost impossible) environment that Benitez had to work in. 

And then these same spoilt children wanted him gone, and replaced with people like Hodgson, Dalglish, Martinez or Rodgers.....men who are not fit to lace Rafa's boots.

I have to tell myself, that if Liverpool supporters do not appreciate a highly skilled, top-class manager, like Benitez.....then perhaps we do not deserve someone of his ilk at the club.

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #608 on: November 25, 2014, 11:56:12 AM »
He put himself before the club with his "fact" rant, with his Drogba video, with his demands Parry sholuld get the sack, despite having complete Control over transfers, for engaging in open conflict with the owners when the club was on the brink of collapsing. All these actions was to the benefit of Rafa and the harm of the club no matter how you feel about the man. He just didn't put the club first.

what a load of cobblers, Martin.

the two toxic yanks were running the club into the ground.  They were carpet-baggers.  Rafa caught them on, early doors.

Benitez had an impossible job at times.  And I imagine, as chief executive, Parry (who I have a lot of respect for), was put in an impossible position - having to represent the owner's views, and also having to tell Rafa bad news (about transfer budgets, etc).

You never blame our carpet-bagger owners.  You always blame Rafa. 

Bizarre.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #609 on: November 25, 2014, 12:04:19 PM »
Personally Dude the day Rafa told Xabi Alonso he couldn't be at the birth of his child and thus create that tension between the two which ended in Alonso being sold (at his own request) the following summer. That combined with the fact he couldn't get to grips with how to compete continously in the premier league didn't make me cry when he left. I never actually actively wanted to get rid of him dude. But I wasn't being pro-active in demanding he stayed either.

I said at the time I wanted a root and branch clear out of the club from owners to directors to the manager. Martin knew me then and will attest to that.


thanks for the honest and frank post, Edward.

Like you, I was surprised at his refusal to allow Alonso to take time off (from an important game, mind), to be with his wife when giving birth.  But none of us know, the discussions or internal politics behind the scenes.

But what people often forget, is that Alonso had a very poor season, the year before Rafa decided to sell him.

Re competing in the premier league.  I thought - given the working environment -  his premier league record was fantastic.  One second, and the rest of the years (apart from the last year) finishing in the top 4. 

Like Wenger at Arsenal, he almost guaranteed us CL football each season.

You say you wanted a full clear out of everyone at the club.  I cannot agree.

Continuity is key, in any organisation.  You can't be having soviet style, root and branch clearout - every few years, and expect the success to continue.



In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #610 on: November 25, 2014, 02:09:32 PM »
Unfortunately, it all seem gone now.
What I think is odd is he got rid of Agger, but has massive defensive problems?

bought Balotelli and then undermined him with comments while his 1st choice
striker was out?

Invested £120 million and waved the white flag at the Bernabeu?

Al Pacino holed up in his fortress at the end of Scarface is a
model of rationality by comparison  ;D

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #611 on: November 25, 2014, 03:50:04 PM »
What I think is odd is he got rid of Agger, but has massive defensive problems?

bought Balotelli and then undermined him with comments while his 1st choice
striker was out?

Invested £120 million and waved the white flag at the Bernabeu?

Al Pacino holed up in his fortress at the end of Scarface is a
model of rationality by comparison  ;D

 :D

I agree on all poins bar Agger who I think looked physically compromised towards the end + he make Sturridge look a physical beast in terms of injury proneness.

I don't mind the Real thingy that much really. He took a chance, it didn't work out. What's more problematic is he didn't stick with those who actually performed in that game (bar Allen) and went back to the usual underperforming suspects.

I Think we all agree the transfer business' been a fornicating disaster but our extremly weird model for handling it makes it difficult, at least for me, to lay sole blame at Rodges door.

The way he's handled Balotelli it's almost you suspect he wants him to be THAT Balotelli. Not much of that famous man-management there.
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Edward224

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #612 on: November 25, 2014, 05:44:21 PM »
Agger himself admits he couldn't hack the day to day and game to game of the premier league season anymore.


Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #613 on: November 26, 2014, 07:39:11 PM »
Come on Jurgen Kop (before Arsenal get him)

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/30207942

because personally I'm through with the Brendan experiment
(I was never on board in the first place).

Offline Edward224

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #614 on: November 26, 2014, 09:39:56 PM »
I could talk about many things about tonights game.

However Brendan's in game management was embarrassing. Only one sub? I mean REALLY! One Sub! No inclination to kill them off at all.