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Author Topic: Season 2014/15  (Read 156556 times)

Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1800 on: May 24, 2015, 11:01:17 PM »
I don't know but I have a feeling many of the players felt all along Rodgers are using them in a fundamentally dysfunctional system.
Daniel Agger was LFC through and through in terms of his attitude and
loyalty. He hinted at the problem as he left the club.

I presume in his own mind Rodgers sees himself as the genius not Suarez.

That's all very well, but it works both ways.

If you want to be the top dog amongst young and foreign players (who's
loyalty does not necessarily reside in Liverpool) then it's about results. Once
the doubts concerning the methods of the gaffer begin to creep in...

That's why we're easy pickings for the journeymen pros in lesser clubs.

I still shudder at LVG's comments:

"Vee beet dem vith der own Veapons"

We were found out as a one trick pony and the gaffer began to question
his methods and previous conviction. The dressing room was watching.
(of course having side-shows like Stevie, Balo and Sterling doesn't help).



Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1801 on: May 24, 2015, 11:10:26 PM »
You may laugh, but I fear we will fight to avoid relegation next season.

The collapse we've witnessed from the second half of last season to the first half of this, and again from the mini revival to the complete implosion, provides more than enough evidence that if we start next season like we finished this one, or go through a similar complete collapse in form, then we could easily be starring up from the wrong end of the table.

In Rodgers' first season Newcastle finished fifth. Two seasons later and they avoid relegation on the last day of the season. I've drawn parallels with Villa before and see no reason but to be ever more fearful of that happening to us.

Rodgers has become ever more bizarre with his tactics and line ups. After apparently stumbling upon a way to improve our long standing defensive problems, he's then abandoned the system to return to a back four, which had patently failed in his first two and third seasons.

Without Suarez he's been shown to be clearly out of his depth this season. Whether it's him, the transfer committee of which he is part, or a combination, our transfer business has been very, very poor, both in terms of value and in simply signing players far below what is required, unless we're building for mid to lower table mediocrity every season.

If the level we've been at for the last two months of the season is the culmination of 3 seasons work, then it suggests we're on completely the wrong course. I've no idea what happened in the week leading up to the Manc game but since that point the players seem to have been totally disinterested and where we've previously at least had team spirit and fight we've seen the complete opposite. Last week's embarrassment at home to Palace should have at least heralded some sort of pride salvaging display today, if nothing else, to make sure we had some sort of European football at Anfield next season. Again, we saw the complete opposite. 
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1802 on: May 24, 2015, 11:33:05 PM »
Daniel Agger was LFC through and through in terms of his attitude and
loyalty. He hinted at the problem as he left the club.

I presume in his own mind Rodgers sees himself as the genius not Suarez.

That's all very well, but it works both ways.

If you want to be the top dog amongst young and foreign players (who's
loyalty does not necessarily reside in Liverpool) then it's about results. Once
the doubts concerning the methods of the gaffer begin to creep in...

That's why we're easy pickings for the journeymen pros in lesser clubs.

I still shudder at LVG's comments:

"Vee beet dem vith der own Veapons"

We were found out as a one trick pony and the gaffer began to question
his methods and previous conviction. The dressing room was watching.
(of course having side-shows like Stevie, Balo and Sterling doesn't help).

It doesn't do any good for dressing room morale when the manager credits himself and his 'philosophy' when things are going well but blames the players, even singling out certain individuals by name, and completely ostracising others, when it's patently obvious we're bleeding from that huge hole where we once had a nose, when things start going wrong, and he is unable or unwilling to find or try alternatives.

We've had no strikers of note most of the season, at least on the pitch, whilst on the bench we've a Scouser who's proved himself at least more than competent in the Premier League and a young player coming off a confidence boosting loan season at Sunderland, who turned down guaranteed first team football elsewhere to fight and prove himself here. Borini may not be a 30 goal a season guy, but he's a 100% effort a game sort of player, and considering some of the dross we've witnessed, a player at least busting his balls would have made a refreshing change.

We've Ilori, Aspas, Wisdom and Alberto to come back yet - remember them? The new manager (surely there has to be one) will have his work cut out shifting the amount of dead wood and dead losses we've expensively accumulated over the last 3 years. FSG will need to dig deep. Clearing the dross out of the dugout and the squad is going to cost, as is bringing in enough quality to even form a core of 16 players up to the level required.

I think we did this and the end of last season where we tried to put together a core of 16 (11 starters and the 5 subs), and after last Summers spending spree, conversely, the job is even harder, not easier, to compile 16 players that would be worth it or worthy of wearing the shirt when next season starts in less than 3 month's time.
 
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1803 on: May 24, 2015, 11:46:19 PM »
This nonsense about 'going if the owners want me to' from Rodgers. Can't he judge for himself whether he should step down.

"We finished sixth and that is where we deserve to finish."

So 7th, in your first season to get to 6th in your third, £211M and 24 players later. It's your team, your squad. You're not having to 'make do' with another manager's choices. Yet still you can't bring yourself to do the honourable thing, not only that, you claim "I still feel I have a lot to offer here." Such as? What is it you have that you haven't utilised yet, that will make the huge difference required? And if indeed you have so much, then why wait until your 4th season to unveil it?

Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1804 on: May 25, 2015, 12:28:21 AM »
Jamie Carragher tweeted that his son left the match at half-time.

Jamie tweeted:

"Embarrassing day for all connected with Lfc 6-1 is not acceptable.

Not seen anything but my son left at half time so it must've been bad!!"
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1805 on: May 25, 2015, 08:57:56 AM »
Jim's take on it all:

Liverpool's defeat to Stoke was shameful. Brendan Rodgers must pack his bags NOW so we can progress

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/liverpools-defeat-stoke-shameful-brendan-5756005

"The failings of the ownership and their clearly below-par transfer committee need to be dealt with but that should not take away from the failings of his young manager. The nicest thing to say is that the Liverpool job came too soon for him.

Even throwing a generous pinch of salt in with the gossip leaking from the dressing room there are far too many in there who have lost all respect for him. Forget the nice PR-friendly stuff churned out through official club outlets, far too many players are left baffled at his decisions and disappointed at his treatment not only of them but of their teammates.

Listen back to interviews past players have given about the way they left, players like Pepe Reina and Daniel Agger, listen to how they talk about being told one thing by the manager, only for him to do another. Word from the dressing room is that this is still going on now, and Rodgers seems oblivious to it.

Look at the performances on the pitch today. Not just today either, but especially today. Which side was playing for their manager? Not the side wearing black.

Rodgers is out of his depth.
"

All points we've made on here and non of us have the contacts inside Anfield that Jim has, however, they're plainly obvious to all of us, even from our distant vantage points.

Jim's whole article is balanced and considered, but above all honest. It's the reality. Not some knee jerk reaction from 'supporters' giving a damn about things they have no control over, as has been the accusation aimed at some of us on here since Rodgers took the job.

Rodgers has still to do the honourable thing. If he wants to save his career and not go the same way as O'Leary, then he needs to start next season at a club at the level he currently is as a manager, and do it with more humility and honest self appraisal than he's done it here over the last 3 seasons.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1806 on: May 25, 2015, 09:01:17 AM »
Jamie Carragher tweeted that his son left the match at half-time.

Jamie tweeted:

"Embarrassing day for all connected with Lfc 6-1 is not acceptable.

Not seen anything but my son left at half time so it must've been bad!!"

I know what they'll call him over at RAWK.  ;D
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1807 on: May 25, 2015, 09:31:03 AM »
Jim's take on it all:

Liverpool's defeat to Stoke was shameful. Brendan Rodgers must pack his bags NOW so we can progress

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/liverpools-defeat-stoke-shameful-brendan-5756005

"The failings of the ownership and their clearly below-par transfer committee need to be dealt with but that should not take away from the failings of his young manager. The nicest thing to say is that the Liverpool job came too soon for him.

Even throwing a generous pinch of salt in with the gossip leaking from the dressing room there are far too many in there who have lost all respect for him. Forget the nice PR-friendly stuff churned out through official club outlets, far too many players are left baffled at his decisions and disappointed at his treatment not only of them but of their teammates.

Listen back to interviews past players have given about the way they left, players like Pepe Reina and Daniel Agger, listen to how they talk about being told one thing by the manager, only for him to do another. Word from the dressing room is that this is still going on now, and Rodgers seems oblivious to it.

Look at the performances on the pitch today. Not just today either, but especially today. Which side was playing for their manager? Not the side wearing black.

Rodgers is out of his depth.
"

All points we've made on here and non of us have the contacts inside Anfield that Jim has, however, they're plainly obvious to all of us, even from our distant vantage points.

Jim's whole article is balanced and considered, but above all honest. It's the reality. Not some knee jerk reaction from 'supporters' giving a damn about things they have no control over, as has been the accusation aimed at some of us on here since Rodgers took the job.

Rodgers has still to do the honourable thing. If he wants to save his career and not go the same way as O'Leary, then he needs to start next season at a club at the level he currently is as a manager, and do it with more humility and honest self appraisal than he's done it here over the last 3 seasons.

Very good read there, Tes. "Judge me after 3 seasons" an'all. Before yesterday's game I had the gnawing feeling FSG wouldn't have the bottle to sack him. Now I don't can't see how they couldn't.

Is it realistic to hope for Klopp as his replacement?
The modest Oracle of the Anfield Road Forum sometimes mistaken for Judas Iscariot.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1808 on: May 25, 2015, 11:27:26 AM »
Very good read there, Tes. "Judge me after 3 seasons" an'all. Before yesterday's game I had the gnawing feeling FSG wouldn't have the bottle to sack him. Now I don't can't see how they couldn't.

Is it realistic to hope for Klopp as his replacement?

It wasn't just the score, either full time, or even worse, half time, it was more the nature of how it happened (again), and it's the culmination of what has been happening, without Rodgers arresting it, since and including the Manc game.
The first half of the season was dire. Finally, after 2 1/2 seasons of defensive disorganisation, another thing Rodgers either failed to admit to and face, or simply don't know how to rectify it, he appeared to have improved things, only bizarrely to switch back to a flat back four, the thing that had patently failed.  Additionally, having seemingly found Can's best (current) position as a right sided defender, he then plays him at right back.
With what had gone previously, and his failure to understand that a right sided defender in a back three is neither a centre half or a right back (they are both components of a back four), it hardly gives confidence that the (temporary) defensive improvement was actually 'by design' rather than a fortunate accident, and so a pattern is very definitely forming.
Firstly, he's been unable to change our defensive malfunctioning, secondly he was unable to improve on our first half season's form without a 'fortunate accident' and then having seen another slump in form, allied to a complete lack of effort and seemingly total disinterest from most of the players, that slump has continued and reached the depths we've plumbed in the last 2 games of the season.
The only positive thing from this season is that thankfully it's finished.

Jim's piece today rings so true, and it has been increasingly apparent this season as results have slumped, the nature of performances increasingly through the season seeming to show a group of players no longer responding to and playing for the manager, and you factor in the way certain players like Reina and Agger have been treated, and the complete lack of use he has given to certain new additions each year (as though they were not his decisions but transfer committee buys) and it all appears to show a manager badly at odds with his players. The players have understandably struggled to keep adapting to his ever increasing, and increasingly bizarre tactical and formational changes, some that have happened multiple times in a single game and the complete lack of a striker on the pitch yesterday, despite the fact we have a very competent one in Lambert on the bench, and Borini who isn't injured (according to physioroom.com), not even in the squad.
Going back to a back four with Can at right back and our hopeless (defensively) right back Johnson being played at left back, highlights the illogical and bizarre way Rodgers has chosen to lurch as the season started to totally implode.

Manquillo seems to have been another Rodgers has ostracised and placed blame fairly and squarely on. With Johnson thankfully out of contract and Flanno out of action long term (he'll miss at least the first half of next season), surely Manquillo needed to be worked with as he will be first choice next season, and indeed this as Johnson's had his usual number of injuries. So unless the returning Wisdom is seen as the first choice solution, we have to buy 2 new right backs this Summer, unless (doubtfully) the youth teams/under 21s are awash with talented and ready right backs.
The introduction of yet another defensive recruit is further going to unsettle what is already (once again) a huge problem area.
There's no continuity or stability it seems, and it would appear that planning for more than one game a week is beyond Rodgers' capabilities.

Yesterday should be confirmation, not an enlightenment for the owners, and only 'tried and tested and succeeded' should be the prerequisite for any new manager. Based on that, I see only 4 names that fit the bill - Carlo Ancelotti, Rafa Benitez, Jurgen Klopp and Frank de Boer, all of which should be available and distinct possibilities.

The owners chose to go down this untested route, so any expense in ending the experiment shouldn't impact on the new manager's transfer budget, and neither should Rodgers'/the transfer committee's poor use of over £200M, be a reason for the new manager to be rationed in financial support.
We don't need a DOF either, unless, for example, de Boer requests one. All four man are capable of handling transfers and understanding the needs of the team and squad. The duplicitous nature of manager/transfer committee has been proven, beyond doubt, not to work, so a unilateral approach, with the manager bearing full responsibility in every sense, needs to be the implemented way forward. 

And a new, 'fit for purpose' CEO also needs to be brought in. As part of the transfer committee he should be culpable for the squandering of so much money, as should Fallows and Hunter and the head of performance and analysis Michael Edwards. You don't buy players based on stats as they are largely meaningless without the context in which they were 'achieved'. You only have a tiny snapshot using stats.
Geoff Twentyman was proof of that.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1809 on: May 25, 2015, 11:54:25 AM »
Brendan's premiership record, goals conceded

2011/12 51 goals conceded (when managing Swansea in Premiership)
2012/13 43 conceded (Liverpool onwards)
2013/14 50 conceded
2014/15 48 conceded

Average goals conceded each season by Brendan in the premiership - 48 goals


Rafa at Anfield
2004/05 41 goals conceded
2005/06 25 conceded
2006/07 27 conceded
2007/08 28 conceded
2008/09 27 conceded
2008/10 35 conceded

Rafa's average goals conceded as Liverpool manager 30.5
Though in this three central years, with his feet firmly below the table, it was less than 27 goals per season.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1810 on: May 25, 2015, 11:56:57 AM »
As Tes, and myself, have always argued, you start at the back.  Without a proper defence, you have nothing.

The world class Luis Suarez hid all the manager's weaknesses last year.

Without Suarez, and all his creativity and goals, the king suddenly had no clothes.

His woeful defensive abilities, and poor tactics, were there for all to painfully see. 
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1811 on: May 25, 2015, 01:53:56 PM »
Brendan's premiership record, goals conceded

2011/12 51 goals conceded (when managing Swansea in Premiership)
2012/13 43 conceded (Liverpool onwards)
2013/14 50 conceded
2014/15 48 conceded

So after three seasons we've conceded 5 more goals than in his first season. With losing Suarez we needed to tighten up massively as one of the ways of offsetting that loss. We were always going to score fewer than last season, so it was absolutely vital we cut our goals conceded by at the very least a 1/3. Even that would have meant conceding around the 30+ mark.
£32M spent on defenders later and we've managed to concede a paltry 2 goals less, whilst scoring only around half as many goals. We've both under scored and over conceded.

Didn't Rodgers say during his first season, "judge me after 3 years"? How many would you like it to be now, Brendan? I'm sure he'd think it unfair to be judged other than favourably, but like last season when he wanted all the plaudits, he has to take the blame for not at least consolidating on last season by finishing in the top four, even if we were 6-10 points off the winner.

We've come full circle after that three year period and over £200M spent. Like with any ride, when you end up back where you started from, it's time to get off.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

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Offline Martinmarx

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1812 on: May 25, 2015, 02:27:35 PM »
In fairness to an informed discussion I feel the goal for stats should also be displayed as it would better reflect the two managers mind-set and attitude towards the game.
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Offline Ed

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1813 on: May 25, 2015, 04:59:00 PM »
Liverpool striker Divock Origi named in ‘Ligue 1 worst team of the season’

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/may/25/divock-origi-liverpool-lille-ligue-1-worst-team-of-season

Offline Tes

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Re: Season 2014/15
« Reply #1814 on: May 25, 2015, 05:48:15 PM »
Has he gone yet?
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.