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Author Topic: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.  (Read 2359 times)

Offline Tes

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The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« on: February 19, 2016, 09:50:54 PM »
Javier Mascherano believes Liverpool owners 'will never understand the club'

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/premier-league/javier-mascherano-believes-liverpool-owners-will-never-understand-the-club-34469377.html

An interesting viewpoint from someone who can hardly be described as a biased local. It's good to see someone like Masch publicly saying the sort of things we've mentioned so many times on here, and that despite how he left (or felt he had to leave), he still has an obvious affinity with the club, and more importantly, the fans .
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2016, 10:43:38 PM »
I must read the artilce tonight.

But I was reading earlier today where Mascherano said that once Rafa was fired, he was always gonna leave too - that the club was in dissaray, directionless.

Losing Rafa was madness.  :(

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2016, 10:56:55 PM »
I must read the artilce tonight.

But I was reading earlier today where Mascherano said that once Rafa was fired, he was always gonna leave too - that the club was in dissaray, directionless.

Losing Rafa was madness.  :(

I've seen in another headline where he states he thought the club were 'falling apart'. When a CL and La Liga winning manager gets replaced by a long proven no-hoper like Hodgson, there's no wonder players start to feel that way.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2016, 11:05:09 PM »
I've seen in another headline where he states he thought the club were 'falling apart'. When a CL and La Liga winning manager gets replaced by a long proven no-hoper like Hodgson, there's no wonder players start to feel that way.

yes, utter madness.

so frustrating - for if he had been allowed to continue, I think Rafa was on the brink of becoming like a Fergie.   He had found his feet in england - and despite limited money and an awful working environment - had kept the ship afloat (performing miracles).

He was finding his feet, domestically.....to sack him at that point, was to me, the most idiotic thing the club has ever done.

Utterly frustrating.  We could have went on to dominate england (and europe).  But the morons sacked him - and top hispanic people left with him.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Edward224

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2016, 12:04:05 AM »
Nice revisionism going on here........



p.s. 1 title challenge in 5 years (and a caveat to that challenge as he was forced to let the players have more freedom on the pitch) bellies the fact Rafa would ever be able to do a 'fergie'


Offline the dude abides

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2016, 01:59:42 AM »
Nice revisionism going on here........

p.s. 1 title challenge in 5 years (and a caveat to that challenge as he was forced to let the players have more freedom on the pitch) bellies the fact Rafa would ever be able to do a 'fergie'

revisionism?

Rafa's Net Spend in the Transfer Market
Total Players Bought: £229,340,000
Total Players Sold: £151,000,000
Total Net Spend: £78,340,000

 So, that’s a total net spend of just over    £78m in 6 years at the club. An average of £16 million a year.      Note - some analysts have his net spend as low as £11.3m per year.
http://liverpoolfc.wikia.com/wiki/Rafael_Benitez/Transfers

In the midst of the Toxic Yanks tenure, Rafa admirably kept us challenging for honours.   He took us to two European Cup finals, winning the first final in 2005.  We won the FA Cup in 2006 and reached the 2007 Champions League Final. We qualified nearly every season for CL football.  And all this, on a wage bill that was only the 5th highest in the league.

Win %
League – Played 212, won 56.13% (currently 2nd-highest % for any post-war Liverpool manager)
Europe – Played 77, won 55.84% (currently 3rd-highest % for any Liverpool manager)

Premiership Position
2004/05: Finished 5th – 58 pts
2005/06: Finished 3rd – 82 pts
2006/07: Finished 3rd – 68 pts
2007/08: Finished 4th – 76 pts
2008/09: Finished 2nd – 86 pts
2009/10: Finished 7th –  63 pts

Rafa took us to a superb 76 points in May 2008, despite our owners only giving him peanuts to spend that season  i.e.   2008/09 net spend: £2.5m

The following season, despite such little investment, he took us to an amazing 86 points. 

BUT, a second season of no spending, resulted in us following away in 2010....and only 63 points (7th).    Rafa had a net spend in that final season of only 10 thousand pounds.

2009/10 net spend: £10,000

It was a miracle that Rafa kept the train on the tracks for so long.   

What a fantastic manager.  The best since Bob Paisley. 
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Edward224

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2016, 04:07:34 PM »
As I said nice revisionism going on.....


Offline the dude abides

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2016, 07:44:37 PM »
?
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Edward224

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2016, 03:21:04 PM »
Ok I'll go by each season premier league only:-

2004/5:- Everton finish higher than us for the first time in premier league history. We fight for 4th place but due to our progress in europe - especially in the autumn and winter months - we decide - quite rightly - to fight for progress in europe and due to going further in the competition and being in 5th-8th place throughout that period in time. Only after the group campaign and from March onwards did we show some consistency in the league, however Everton have enough of a gap to see us off for 4th.

2005/6:- Rafa notices our lack of progress in the league and the reasons why. So he decides to add some physicality and focal points to our team. In comes Reina, Zenden, Sissoko, Crouch, Agger. Rafa does well to spot our weaknesses. Thusly that together from the confidence of being european champions we have a good season but it didn't start off that way. Prioritising trying to get into the group stages for the CL we draw at Middlesbrough, draw at spurs, draw at Birmingham, draw at home to Man U, lose to chelsea and lose to Fulham. At the end of October we have THREE premier league wins.

So any semblance of building on our CL success in the league has finished and we have no chance to win the league at the end of October. From November to January we go on a winning run ending in defeat at Old Trafford. Then we begin again another good run from January to May which includes the FA Cup which we win.........just. So we get our best points total in PL history however at the end of October our title challenge evaporated so we were fighting for 3rd place. We fail to build on the epic CL triumph.

2006/7:- I was convinced at the time that this was our year!!! We had won the CL, had a good premier league season culminating in a cup win and this was the time to push on!!!!!! Instead what do we do?? Instead of copying the mancs who bought 2 or 3 top class players in positions that they needed filling we bought crap:- Bellamy, Palletta, Pennant, Aurelio, Kuyt, Arbeloa. Yes all good players at the time but none top tier and it was a missed opportunity. So in the league what happened - another crap start. Draw at Sheffield Utd, lose to Everton 3-0!, lose to chelsea, lose to Bolton, draw at home to Blackburn, surrendered at Old Trafford (the only time I've ever seen use wave the white flag in any game). At the end of October we have only 4 wins. Title challenge well and truly over at that point. So Rafa decides to concentrate on europe and our league campaign suffers for this:- lose at Arsenal, draw to boro, draw at home to portsmouth, lose to blackburn, draw the derby, lose to newcastle, lose to man u, draw at villa and man city and lost to portsmouth and fulham. If it wasn't for our good run in January when we won at Spurs, beat Bolton, Watford, a weakened Chelsea and West Ham we'd have missed out on 4th place.

So two seasons in a row we lost the league in October with draws at home being the downfall which would continue to be our downfall the following season.

2007/8:- We bought well this time in Torres, Skrtel, Lucas, Babel and Mascherano. Finally I thought yes we have that world class striker and strength in the middle. However yet again draws at home kill us. In total 13 draws out of 38 games!!! If we had instead won 5, drew 4 and lost 4 of those games we'd have had more points!! Of those 13 draws we drew to this lot at home!!:- Birmingham, tottenham, arsenal, wigan, aston villa. We only lost 4 times but drew 13!!

So Rafa was getting used to the league?! BO LL OCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A clear pattern was emerging here. Rafa was too cautious in the premier league. In europe it was clearly the right strategy but not in the premier league it wasn't If he wasn't as cautious as he was then some of those 13 draws would have become wins. Yes some would then also become losses. But it is draws that kill you when competing for league titles and we'd have had more points we my scenario rather than 13 draws. I'd rather have more wins and more losses than 4 losses but 13 draws.

So it was very strategically clear going into 2008/9 that Rafa in the premier league was too cautious. We went for quantity of quality in transfer in 06/07 and 07/08.

2008/9:- So again transfers questionable:- Dossena, Keane, Riera. Dossena was a useless purchase and Riera was a decent buy but never top level at least he was winger which we badly lacked. Keane was a good buy in theory but the mistake we made was not replacing him in January therefore we relied upon N'Gog and Babel for goals to supplant Torres and Gerrard after January. Rafa's biggest mistake as we could have won the league had we stuck with Keane or replace him with another striker. But our record in the league was 25 wins, 2 losses and 11 draws. Draws KILL US YET AGAIN!!! Losing to Boro was bad but drawing against this lot even worse:- Draw at home to Stoke, Draws at home to Fulham and West Ham (in consecutive weeks), draw at home to Hull, Draws away to stoke and Wigan and draw at home to everton sandwiched in between. I'm not even going to discuss 'mind games re Stoke'

BUT THEN IT F U C K I N G FINALLY DAWNED ON RAFA THAT WE NEEED WINS TO WIN THE LEAGUE AND THAT DRAWS KILL US!! Therefore he decides to allow the team more freedom on the pitch to express their abilities within the framework of his system. We then go on an amazing run from February to May of 12 wins. 5 wins in a row before and after the Arsenal 4-4 game - a draw which killed our league campaign.

I then agree with you Dude about 2009/10 which I won't even discuss as H&G took everything and we could only purchase from Roma and Portsmouth as they owed us money at the time.

So nice revisionism dude. Rafa never ever got to grips of what is needed to win the premier league until it was too late. The amount of draws in 06/07, 07/08 and 08/09 proves this point.

For me 2006/7 was the greatest opportunity we had to really shake things up. We had two seasons under our belt with Rafa winning the CL and FA Cups and coming off our best ever points total in the PL. So we had the momentum, we had the squad but in the end it was the most disappointing season under Rafa's management in the PL for me as opposed in 09/10 we started off with players at their peak and had a squad knowing it could win trophies. But cautious Rafa didn't learn his lesson in the PL until it was too late.

This is my last post on the subject as I don't want to look back - I just wanted to point out some facts to you as it pertains to Rafa in the PL. 

Offline the dude abides

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2016, 09:41:08 PM »
thanks for the post, Edward.

You seem to think Rafa should have came in, and hit the ground running, winning leagues here there and everywhere.

Like I mean, we have won a  grand total of zero league titles in 24 years.  So why does Rafa get all your venom?

Klopp has said he needs three or four years to have a chance of a title.  Rodgers was always going on about how it would take time to fully implement his plans.  So why do you judge Rafa by different criteria?

Rafa was sacked in 2010.   And, with the exception of one world class player helping us, it has been a downward spiral ever since Rafa left.  We are a top 8 team.  Top 6 in a good year.  We have the worst first eleven, and overall squad, in my near 50 years of watching the club.

Rafa stopped performing miracles.  And he was sacked.    They gave him a net spend of 2 and a half million quid, to spend on players, in his penulnimate year at Anfield.  And in his final year, they gave him a paultry ten thousand quid, net, to spend in the transfer market. 

Yes, like you I liked to see the flowing football that we could play at times.  But is playing like Keegan's Newcastle the way to get long term success?    And when you play that type of football, you need top quality players.  We didn't have Barca type players.  We didn't have the attacking resources of Man Utd or Chelsea, at least not in depth.

Rafa did a helluva job.  And they pulled the carpet from below him.

Shame on all those who wanted him sacked.   You've had 6 years to have a long hard think about your idiocy.   Regular Champions League football is but a memory.   Winning trophies, a memory.  Being Europe's number one ranked club, a long distant memory.

As Mascherano said, sacking Rafa was a sign the club were in disarray.   

 
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2016, 04:10:03 PM »
Nice revisionism going on here........

What? By whom? Mascherano? Seeing as it was his comments that were being highlighted.

I guess Mascherano wouldn't have the first clue as to what was really happening at the club during his time.

Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Edward224

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2016, 05:44:01 PM »
No by Dude and I gave my reasons why.

Offline Tes

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2016, 10:30:54 PM »
No by Dude and I gave my reasons why.

Right. Gotcha.

I do miss the days of taking CL qualification for granted, and instead, having not challenged for the title or being only in 3rd place in the league but 10 points off the top spot, as the thing we were gripping about.

Despite the league being relatively poor these last two seasons, which may be an argument as why we did always finish in the Top Four, we're still and were last season, way away from that Top Four utopia. It seems like a long time since we really could take it as a bare minimum, and even then, that felt like it was setting the bar ridiculously low in order to massage expectations.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2016, 11:27:06 AM »
Right. Gotcha.

I do miss the days of taking CL qualification for granted

revisionism says those days never happened.

It was all but a dream.  Rafa's fantasy.

Ranked number one in Europe, beating Madrid and United 4-0 and 4-1 in the same week - a hallucination.

I took some of David Brent's magic potion, now I see reality, and I now renounce all my dreams and fantasies (including the Amanda Holden and Felicity Kendall ones)

 

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: The Owners - an ex player's view on things.
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2016, 11:33:07 AM »
I see in the past few days, those multi-millionaire top pundits, Alan Hansen and Jaimie Carragher are saying we need to spend 200 million (Hansen) this summer...and spend 50 mllion on Reus (Carra).

Sod that.   Why don't these geniuses tell us about the market, European, S America and beyond, and tell us the names of young and upcoming talent  that would be a far cheaper and wiser bet.   Or even gems across Europe in their mid 20s, who could offer us something.

I fail to comprehend why these pundits get big money, for selling us old rope.

ANYONE could spout the nonsense they spout.



In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.