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Offline the dude abides

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Big clubs meet at London hotel
« on: March 02, 2016, 05:29:17 PM »
Premier League clubs admit to meeting over changes to Champions League
• Executives seen leaving hotel after summit in London
• International Champions Cup participation on agenda

The Premier League’s so-called “big five” clubs have admitted meeting to debate changes to the Champions League, amid febrile discussion across Europe about the future of the competition and proposals that could include guaranteed entry for the biggest teams.

While moving to deny reports that a breakaway European Super League or replacement for the Champions League was discussed, sources at Chelsea, Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool and Arsenal admitted debating the future of the format.

The admission is another indicator of the wide-ranging changes being discussed at all levels of the game in Europe as clubs jockey for position ahead of an agreement on the format for the next three-year TV contract cycle from 2018 and maximise revenues.

The Bayern Munich chairman Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, a former head of the ECA, kickstarted renewed speculation in January when he said that a super league was all but inevitable. “In the future, I can see a tournament consisting of 20 teams from Italy, England, Spain, Germany and France.  It is an idea born some time ago. I see that in the top five leagues in Europe, the big teams are always getting stronger and stronger,” he said. “A super league outside of the Champions League is being born. It will either be led by Uefa or by a separate entity, because there is a limit to how much money can be made.”

full article at:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/mar/02/premier-league-clubs-breakway-meeting
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Offline the dude abides

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2016, 05:32:23 PM »
the likes of United and Chelsea will be mighty peeved, at missing out on next season's Champions League.....for United, that will be their second season missing in three years.

I can foresee the top clubs, in england and europe, wanting a guaranteed annual revenue stream - as opposed to allowing pesky things like how good you are, impact upon participation in the Champions League.

I'll be honest, my first love is the game of football.  My second love, is my club.

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2016, 06:32:43 PM »
the likes of United and Chelsea will be mighty peeved, at missing out on next season's Champions League.....for United, that will be their second season missing in three years.

I can foresee the top clubs, in england and europe, wanting a guaranteed annual revenue stream - as opposed to allowing pesky things like how good you are, impact upon participation in the Champions League.

I'll be honest, my first love is the game of football.  My second love, is my club.

How boring would all that be? The PL has become too predictable, which is why it's so great seeing Leicester and Spurs up there this season.

I'd rather watch the scraps of what's left in both the PL and European Cup. Maybe then we'd see some real sport and competition for the first time in what seems like forever.

Same as you Dude, I love seeing lesser lights mixing it with the so-called elite and having a chance to match them because of good coaching and good scouting.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

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Offline the dude abides

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2016, 07:43:43 PM »
How boring would all that be? The PL has become too predictable, which is why it's so great seeing Leicester and Spurs up there this season.

I'd rather watch the scraps of what's left in both the PL and European Cup. Maybe then we'd see some real sport and competition for the first time in what seems like forever.

Same as you Dude, I love seeing lesser lights mixing it with the so-called elite and having a chance to match them because of good coaching and good scouting.

exactly, Tes.

dead boring to watch the big clubs play each other, every ten minutes, in some breakaway superr league.

But if I were the other clubs in England, I would play hard ball - and tell the big clubs to go right ahead.   The big clubs depend on the rest of the clubs.  Without them, they are nothing.

Let the big guys break away.  I;d even order the taxi for them.

A newly reconstructed league in england - would be awesome.  I'd bring back the old format - i.e. divisions 1, 2, 3 and 4.  It would be amazing to see real genuine competitive football again.

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2016, 10:42:38 PM »
exactly, Tes.

dead boring to watch the big clubs play each other, every ten minutes, in some breakaway superr league.

But if I were the other clubs in England, I would play hard ball - and tell the big clubs to go right ahead.   The big clubs depend on the rest of the clubs.  Without them, they are nothing.

Let the big guys break away.  I;d even order the taxi for them.

A newly reconstructed league in england - would be awesome.  I'd bring back the old format - i.e. divisions 1, 2, 3 and 4.  It would be amazing to see real genuine competitive football again.

It was great seeing the likes of Swansea (under Toshack) and Wimbledon rise up through the leagues to get promoted to Division 1 and challenge for the title in Swansea's case.
It might be QPR one year, or Villa, Ipswich Town, Leeds, Arsenal, and even Everton, you never quite knew who would prove to be our rivals for the title, and that made it interesting.

Forest getting promoted to Division 1 and winning it first season back, qualifying for the following season's European Cup and winning that at the first time of asking was great for football in this country, likewise Villa winning the league and then going on to win the European Cup next season.
Watching English and Scottish teams doing well in European competitions was great too as it meant we would have to raise our game to keep them at bay in the league, and the Scottish teams if we drew them in Europe,  and that healthy competition is what sport is all about.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2016, 03:14:37 PM »
It was great seeing the likes of Swansea (under Toshack) and Wimbledon rise up through the leagues to get promoted to Division 1 and challenge for the title in Swansea's case.

It might be QPR one year, or Villa, Ipswich Town, Leeds, Arsenal, and even Everton, you never quite knew who would prove to be our rivals for the title, and that made it interesting.

Forest getting promoted to Division 1 and winning it first season back, qualifying for the following season's European Cup and winning that at the first time of asking was great for football in this country, likewise Villa winning the league and then going on to win the European Cup next season.
Watching English and Scottish teams doing well in European competitions was great too as it meant we would have to raise our game to keep them at bay in the league, and the Scottish teams if we drew them in Europe,  and that healthy competition is what sport is all about.

exactly.  It was great seeing teams like Swansea, Wimbledon, Ipswich and Forest excel in past decades.  It was refreshing.  It kept football interesting.

Imagine in 1888, if the 12 founding clubs of the league - Accrington, Aston Villa, Blackburn Rovers, Bolton Wanderers, Burnley, Derby County, Everton, Notts County, Preston North End, Stoke, West Bromwich Albion and Wolverhampton Wanderers had concocted a system, where they always dominated and were guaranteed financial riches each season, regardless of performance levels.

We would still be seeing these 12 clubs dominating today.....assuming their owners had not got bored and gone and done something else.  And the joy of football would have long since disappeared.

To be honest, my love of the game has been dying these past 20 odd years.  The Sky money, and the CL money, has forever destroyed the love I had for the game.

And sadly, I fear it will only get worse.

When you hear of the Chinese league now rumoured to be offering over-the-hill players like Rooney 400 grand per week, to go to China.....then you know the game is up.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 03:16:05 PM by the dude abides »
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2016, 03:23:21 PM »
To be honest, my love of the game has been dying these past 20 odd years.  The Sky money, and the CL money, has forever destroyed the love I had for the game.

And sadly, I fear it will only get worse.

When you hear of the Chinese league now rumoured to be offering over-the-hill players like Rooney 400 grand per week, to go to China.....then you know the game is up.

That's exactly the way I feel too, Dude.

The thing is when you love football, not just one team, and can appreciate successes of other teams and the whys and the hows they are successful, and appreciate players that don't play for your own team, the whole 'closed shop' idea, without the circulation of clubs promotions and relegations brings, just goes against the whole idea and essence of sport. It's bad enough that teams can't come up from a league below and with hard work by all at the club, good coaching, good buying, player and team development etc is still not enough to be able to consistently compete. It's why what Ranieri's done with Leicester and what Pochettino's building at Spurs, is so refreshing. Poch hasn't spent huge sums, instead he's worked with what he had, brought in one or two 'low key' additions and moulded them nicely into a proper unit.
It's my hope that Klopp can do exactly the same without the 'throw money at it' approach Rodgers seemed to have.

It's easy to be 'motivated' if all you're doing is playing the big names of European football every week. The skill and difference maker is being able to be equally motivated to get the win and put in the performance at the Selhurst Parks and Vicarage Roads, rather than the San Siros or Nou Camps.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2016, 10:53:17 PM »
That's exactly the way I feel too, Dude.

The thing is when you love football, not just one team, and can appreciate successes of other teams and the whys and the hows they are successful, and appreciate players that don't play for your own team, the whole 'closed shop' idea, without the circulation of clubs promotions and relegations brings, just goes against the whole idea and essence of sport. It's bad enough that teams can't come up from a league below and with hard work by all at the club, good coaching, good buying, player and team development etc is still not enough to be able to consistently compete. It's why what Ranieri's done with Leicester and what Pochettino's building at Spurs, is so refreshing. Poch hasn't spent huge sums, instead he's worked with what he had, brought in one or two 'low key' additions and moulded them nicely into a proper unit.
It's my hope that Klopp can do exactly the same without the 'throw money at it' approach Rodgers seemed to have.

It's easy to be 'motivated' if all you're doing is playing the big names of European football every week. The skill and difference maker is being able to be equally motivated to get the win and put in the performance at the Selhurst Parks and Vicarage Roads, rather than the San Siros or Nou Camps.

exactly, Tes.

The Sky money produced a partially closed shop (re competitiveness in the premiership).  And the CL money was then the final nail in the coffin, of competitive football in england (and across europe).

I'd like to imagine that fans would not put up with it, and would grow bored.  But sadly, the evidence is to the contrary e.g. look at mundane closed leagues, like those in Scotland and Holland. And the mainstream top leagues, italy, spain, france, portugal, etc....  the lack of competitive football still does not put off the fans.

I always used to wonder, how anyone could get a thrill watching closed leagues - like that in scotland. 

It's like going to a bull-fight.  You always know who is going to win it.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2016, 11:34:29 PM »
exactly, Tes.

The Sky money produced a partially closed shop (re competitiveness in the premiership).  And the CL money was then the final nail in the coffin, of competitive football in england (and across europe).

I'd like to imagine that fans would not put up with it, and would grow bored.  But sadly, the evidence is to the contrary e.g. look at mundane closed leagues, like those in Scotland and Holland. And the mainstream top leagues, italy, spain, france, portugal, etc....  the lack of competitive football still does not put off the fans.

I always used to wonder, how anyone could get a thrill watching closed leagues - like that in scotland. 

It's like going to a bull-fight.  You always know who is going to win it.

The fans' voice is now totally ignored. 'Shut up and pay up' seems to be the mantra, and the fans of the smaller clubs are too loyal to stop attending and those self same clubs have no voice anyway.
Some fans of the bigger 'success assured' clubs will simply jump off one bandwagon onto another, and so they have no problem with 'any' way football is set up.

Ever increasing TV revenue means clubs having to make ever increasing contract commitments to players, as they expect their increased slice, and that brings it's own dangers, so these clubs need to do whatever is needed to keep that revenue coming in to meet those commitments.

It'll just have to keep expanding until like a balloon it can't expand any more. Only then when it has to start from scratch can it be hoped that clubs, players and agents regain some sort of sense and perspective and realise that wages and transfers have to be limited, and that 'investing' in keeping ticket prices down and grounds continually full from generation to generation, rather than over committing on fees and wages, is the only sustainable way for the sport to be run - back to the future as it were.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2016, 03:44:17 PM »
Ever increasing TV revenue means clubs having to make ever increasing contract commitments to players, as they expect their increased slice

It'll just have to keep expanding until like a balloon it can't expand any more. Only then when it has to start from scratch can it be hoped that clubs, players and agents regain some sort of sense and perspective and realise that wages and transfers have to be limited, and that 'investing' in keeping ticket prices down and grounds continually full from generation to generation, rather than over committing on fees and wages, is the only sustainable way for the sport to be run - back to the future as it were.

with more Americans getting involved, I foresee us continuing in the direction of the yankee commercialisation road.

they will see the worldwide market - especially asia - for english football. 

I was so proud of Liverpool fans taking a stand last month.   We need to see more and more of that, from across the entire league and beyond.  I think a mass ban, or a walkout mid-game, in a top TV covered game, would have major implications.

Even Skye would struggle to cover-up an empty stadium, during it's coverage of a game. 

I support either tickets being very cheap - e.g. between a fiver and a tenner.....or even free. 
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2016, 01:12:30 PM »
I see the PL clubs have agreed a £30 cap for three seasons for away tickets. Whilst it's still a bit pricey, it's a lot cheaper than some of the rip-off prices now being charged by clubs to away fans.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2016, 05:17:04 PM »
yes, no doubt they are scared of spooking the sheep - after seeing what the Anfield crowd were capable of doing.

Personally, I think the game is up.  The madness has reached it's pinnacle. 

The new TV contract, allied with the bizarre money on offer in China (400 grand a week to over-the-hill-European players), and the bizarre money from Russian league sides and Quatar. 

The ordinary man is now lost to the game.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2016, 02:23:31 PM »

The ordinary man is now lost to the game.

And the game is now lost to the ordinary man.

As is always the case with these sort of things, it's short term thinking that has caused the problem.

What happens when the moneyed sheep move onto the next 'big thing'? It will happen. It will be too late to bring back the traditional kind of person for whom football has held the appeal since day 1 of it's inception. People will have moved on. The preceding generations being forced into finding an alternative will have done so and the generations that follow will follow that path. Football, will become another 'tennis'.
In this country tennis has always been seen as a sport not open to just anyone. It's belonged to a certain section of society. Football will also be seen that way if the current model continues for longer than another 20-30 years, and that's not that long a time. The PL has already been running for more than 20 years and all the evidence suggests that the game still has some way to go before it reaches what some want it to be.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2016, 03:04:40 PM »
What happens when the moneyed sheep move onto the next 'big thing'?

Football, will become another 'tennis'. In this country tennis has always been seen as a sport not open to just anyone. It's belonged to a certain section of society. Football will also be seen that way if the current model continues for longer than another 20-30 years, and that's not that long a time. The PL has already been running for more than 20 years and all the evidence suggests that the game still has some way to go before it reaches what some want it to be.

yes, we are seeing - this past decade, big Americans now sniffing around.   That is very worrisome.

And look at the timing of the meeting, the other week, between the big clubs' management, in that London hotel.   Chelsea, Man Utd and Liverpool, may well miss out on Champions League spots this season.  For United, this would be the second time in three seasons.  This is new territory for Utd and their owners and financial people.   This would never do.   Our clubs have massive fanbases in Asia and across the planet.  Money shouts. 

I don't like these carve-ups.  I didn't like when the premiership broke away from the rest of the three divisions, in england.  I didn't like it, when the CL format was created.  It made for non-competitive football.  Indeed, look at yesterday.  PSG won the French league title, in record time, via a 9-0 victory. 

My love, and I know yours too, is for a different era. 

Football was my big passion in life.  It isn't now.  And hasn't been for many a long year.  I cancelled my Sky membership eleven years ago, and have never had any regrets about doing so.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: Big clubs meet at London hotel
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2016, 01:51:36 AM »
full story at:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/mar/23/uefa-champions-league-revamp

basically:
  • Change group stage into two mini super-leagues is under consideration
  • Two mini super leagues of 8 clubs each
  • No changes expected to be announced until next season

"The possible move to a larger group format could be seen as a first step towards a European Super League. At the start of the month senior executives from Chelsea, Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal and Liverpool, the Premier League’s “big five” met in London to discuss the Champions League with the American tycoon Charlie Stillitano, chairman of Relevent Sports, which organises of the close season International Champions Cup. The clubs were forced to deny there are plans for a breakaway European Super League."
"But two days later Stillitano suggested a change to the Champions League might be for it to become a closed shop. “What would Manchester United argue: did we create soccer or did Leicester create [it]?” said Stillitano. “Let’s call it the money pot created by soccer and the fandom around the world. Who has had more of an integral role, Manchester United or Leicester? It’s a wonderful, wonderful story – but you could see it from Manchester United’s point of view, too. It’s the age-old argument: US sports franchises [which do not have relegation] versus what they have in Europe.”
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.