October 14, 2019, 03:11:59 PM

Author Topic: Season 2017/18  (Read 90605 times)

Offline the dude abides

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 8113
  • that rug really tied the room together
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #105 on: October 24, 2017, 12:49:32 PM »
Whilst all three mentioned made errors, I have a certain amount of sympathy with whoever plays at centre back or in goal. They're left exposed constantly.

they are being asked to do more than is sensible, and are in a position where they know everything they attempt is so crucial.

absolutely. 

with Klopp wanting our full-backs to be constantly supporting the attack it means crazy pressure on our two centrebacks, when the other side breaks.

being a Liverpool centreback, or keeper, must be one of the most thankless jobs in sport.

in my lifetime, I have never seen anything at Liverpool anywhere close to this defensive shambles.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 8113
  • that rug really tied the room together
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #106 on: October 24, 2017, 07:26:12 PM »


Incoming Liverpool midfielder Naby Keita is one of the best players Ralf Rangnick has ever worked with....with the RB Leipzig sporting director admitting he always knew the Reds would win the battle to sign him.

“He's one of the best I've worked with in 20 years of professional football,” Rangnick, who has worked with the likes of Liverpool pair Sadio Mane and Roberto Firmino and Bayern Munich’s David Alaba, told Kicker.

“I’d also prefer, 10 times, that we'd kept him for another five years - but we are just not able to pay salaries in excess of €10m.”
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #107 on: October 24, 2017, 07:37:54 PM »
absolutely. 

with Klopp wanting our full-backs to be constantly supporting the attack it means crazy pressure on our two centrebacks, when the other side breaks.

being a Liverpool centreback, or keeper, must be one of the most thankless jobs in sport.

in my lifetime, I have never seen anything at Liverpool anywhere close to this defensive shambles.

Exactly. Just as we see how exposed and vulnerable the two centre halves are left, and with a goalkeeper behind them, who can also pull the sort of stupidity (for the first goal) and just plain dire technique (for the fourth goal) and therefore is just plumb unreliable, you have to wonder what they (whichever pair are put in the firing line of playing centre half) are thinking. Sometimes they look shell shocked, or just plain disbelieving at what they're expected to deal with. Lovren hesitated, as if unsure what to do, and let the ball go over his head for the first. So when that then proved to be the wrong action, he just did the opposite and rashly attacked the ball, missing it the next time.
They don't look sure of what to do. People who practice find they do things automatically because practice makes it come naturally. Practice develops understanding. Our centre halves don't look like people who have been drilled, who have practiced things time and again. Nothing looks like it comes naturally. Everything has to be worked out, and that thinking time, and lack of surety, keeps proving fatal.

Even a superb reader of the game like Hyypia, or a pure defender like Carragher or Terry would flounder in this team.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 8113
  • that rug really tied the room together
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #108 on: October 25, 2017, 12:04:48 PM »
you have to wonder what they (whichever pair are put in the firing line of playing centre half) are thinking. Sometimes they look shell shocked, or just plain disbelieving at what they're expected to deal with.

Lovren hesitated, as if unsure what to do, and let the ball go over his head for the first. So when that then proved to be the wrong action, he just did the opposite and rashly attacked the ball, missing it the next time.

They don't look sure of what to do.

Even a superb reader of the game like Hyypia, or a pure defender like Carragher or Terry would flounder in this team.

totally agree.

even two world class centrebacks, like Maldini and Nesta, would have their work cut out in this nutty setup.

your back four (or three) is supposed to be typically lined up across the 18 yard line, NOT the half way line.

it is madness re defending. 

It is also madness for our offence too.  We have such pacy forwards, so why the hell are we compacting the space at the front - allowing them nowhere to speed into?

Klopp's possession mantra is meaningless. 

Mid table clubs had him worked out early on. And worryingly, the evidence so far this season, suggests that top clubs in England now have him sussed out too.

i.e. let Liverpool have as much of the ball as they want.....and just hit them on the counter via throwing or dinking the ball over their defence.

Rope-a-dope.


In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #109 on: October 25, 2017, 06:13:16 PM »
Wagner: Klopp’s Liverpool have problems scoring and defending

http://www.teamtalk.com/news/wagner-klopps-liverpool-have-problems-scoring-and-defending

 ;D  ;D


That's alright then. I thought we had serious problems. As you were, then.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Edward224

  • Established
  • ****
  • Posts: 977
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #110 on: October 25, 2017, 07:42:02 PM »
Thing is, no matter what shape Klopp writes down on paper, ultimately in possession we will (or should) end up in something closely resembling 3-4-3 in our build up play.

The center backs split, Henderson drops and the full backs push up to give us width.

Off the ball, our shape is constantly changing dependant upon what we are doing and trying to achieve. Counter pressing the rule is that everyone can press except for the back 3.

I guess the question is whether off the ball it would be better for us to have 3 (or 5) players or 4. There is no simply answer really. It would force Klopp to narrow his tactical approach though.

His current system is a highly flexible system which changes continuously throughout the game to deal with the threats being faced. It will see us press passing lanes at times when using pressing traps - like how we saw with Pep's Barca. It will allow us to go man oriented when containing sides first and foremost, as we did against Sevilla. It allows us to use ball oriented pressing where we surround and suffocate the ball carrier where we have no discernible marking or team shape.

The problem with our system is it's complicated. Therefore it takes longer to learn and longer still to master. And of course while that learning process occurs, we look a shambles. It's why Chamberlain wont be featuring in our midfield until he understand things tactically enough to not be a liability in there. Stepping out at the wrong time, not knowing whether we are set up to press man, ball, space, passing lanes. Not knowing if he should track runners in a man oriented zonal system or whether he maintains shape.

Which means as it's failing now, we want to see it change. Rather than simply believing that this will take time (and maybe better players) to perfect. If the latter, do we change until we have those better players, which will mean moving back to it could be a longer learning process for them all. Or do we persevere and simply replace those who are not learning quick enough window to window.

I think as fans we only think and see short term. We have problems now. Therefore we want solutions now. That means seeing an actual tangible change of some description. Seeing that change = positive, the manager is pragmatic. Not seeing that change = stubborn, insane, how can persisting with this achieve different results? In reality maybe we just need to be patient. Because for us time is linear, we cannot see the destination until we arrive at it. I am sure there is a plan in place to get us from where we are now to where we want to be. Just because we cannot see it, feel it, touch it yet, doesn't make it less real. We just need to believe it's there.

If we set up more "conservatively" then we will likely face more attacks as well as have fewer ourselves. However it should be harder for sides to find spaces in our half to make good scoring chances from them. If you look at the games against Hoffenheim, Sevilla, Arsenal, and City - we did actually set up this way and look to counter. The problem becomes doing this against a side who won't push their shape into your half exposing themselves to counters and instead will happily only push their midfield line to half way then look to play for territory with aerial transitions. You then may still concede some scoring chances without actually getting much opportunity to have counter attacking moments yourself.

Klopp's system requires explosive players at full back who are strong in 1v1 encounters. We have seen this season how many goals have come from Gomez & TAA being beaten in 1-v-1 too easily (e.g. Albrighton for Leicester). Moreno has been excellent in 1-v-1's this season and his low center of gravity, pace and new found desire to stay on his feet is making him pretty solid for us there. Clyne is also excellent in 1-v-1 (except when Chamberlain destroyed him last year).

There is a reason at Dortmund Klopp would rotate out full backs and central/attacking midfielders when they hit 29 and have them gone entirely at 31 from the squad. Rangnick would start the replacement process even earlier in the mid 20's. A high pressing system requires a lot of pace, balance, agility and stamina. The first things to go with age.

Moreno/Robertson are going to be our left backs going forward, unless Moreno hugely regresses. Clyne/TAA are our right backs. Matip will get a chance with a reliable CB partner to find form. I suspect Karius will get a sustained chance to be #1 before Klopp writes him off. Like Matip, Gini will also get a chance in well balanced midfield. Coutinho, Mane, Salah, Firmino, Origi, Solanke, Chamberlain are a nice set of attacking options.

I think a starting #6 to replace Can, a starting CB to replace Lovren + Keita. Then the Karius we saw in the Bundesliga - or a new keeper if he cannot get to that level here when given the chance. Suspect that will be the next wave of changes we will see to the squad. Maybe Lemar (or other) for Coutinho if he leaves. Sturridge will be leave too I think.

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #111 on: October 26, 2017, 03:46:01 PM »
Time hardly seems to be yielding improvement, in fact quite the opposite.

How much longer will players be given 'to get it'?

Klopp may only have been here for two years, but with our defensive problems being much longer standing than that, it's very difficult to keep re-setting the patience button every time there's a new manager or new approach starting.

Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #112 on: October 28, 2017, 07:06:32 PM »
A well worked ruse. Lovren gets selected to play, looking like the manager is backing his player, only to be taken out of the firing line at the last minute with a muscle injury warming up. Now he can safely put a few games distance between the Spurs game as he 'recovers from injury' ;D
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2017, 12:55:44 PM »
Good to see Sturridge get a goal, and the quality of his finish. If he can manage it, it would be good to see him given 60 minutes against Maribor on Wednesday.

Likewise to see Gomez start at centre half.

Hopefully yesterday's result will have a greater effect than the 7-0 against Maribor did.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 8113
  • that rug really tied the room together
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2017, 09:30:52 PM »
A well worked ruse. Lovren gets selected to play, looking like the manager is backing his player, only to be taken out of the firing line at the last minute with a muscle injury warming up. Now he can safely put a few games distance between the Spurs game as he 'recovers from injury' ;D

 ;D

the politics of it all.

like I mean, who gets injured in the warm up.

Ultimately an easy victory.

But Milner is our penalty taker.  He needs to be taking them (or Hendo).

We can't be letting anyone grab the ball.

Overall good performance.  And we will get better as senior players return from injury.

But time will tell as to whether Klopp is any use at finding a balanced side.  I suspect not.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #115 on: October 30, 2017, 04:03:57 PM »
But Milner is our penalty taker.  He needs to be taking them (or Hendo).

Exactly. Why try mending what's not broken.

West Ham (away) and Southampton (home) will provide us with a sterner test of the defence than Huddersfield did.

I know Karius kept a clean sheet last time out against Maribor, but with the defence looking slightly less shaky against Huddersfield, then surely a bit of stability and continuity would be helpful bu keeping Mignolet in goal on Wednesday.
A second clean sheet and few goals to strengthen our goal difference could be another small step in the right direction, and at the moment even small steps are seeming to take on greater significance.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 8113
  • that rug really tied the room together
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #116 on: October 31, 2017, 04:48:13 PM »
I know Karius kept a clean sheet last time out against Maribor, but with the defence looking slightly less shaky against Huddersfield, then surely a bit of stability and continuity would be helpful bu keeping Mignolet in goal on Wednesday.
A second clean sheet and few goals to strengthen our goal difference could be another small step in the right direction, and at the moment even small steps are seeming to take on greater significance.

stability, especially in defence, has always been key to a successful side.

klopp's chopping and changing is stupid.

he must have made some pre season agreement with our second and third keepers, to give Ward our league cup games (err, game)......and Karius our Champions League games.  Maybe after group stages, klopp opts to use our number one keeper.

As you say, continuity would be nice against Maribor.

I saw Klopp having a few jabs at the Anfield faithful.....seemingly annoyed at the atmosphere in the first half v Huddersfield.  The supporters aren't stupid.  The jury, at best, is out re Klopp being fit to put together a balanced side.   

 
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline Edward224

  • Established
  • ****
  • Posts: 977
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #117 on: November 03, 2017, 07:04:31 PM »
Salah, Firmino and Milner have all missed pens this season!

Maybe it's time the Captain took them!

Offline Tes

  • Too old to be a
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 10196
  • I hate defending
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #118 on: November 03, 2017, 11:16:42 PM »
Salah, Firmino and Milner have all missed pens this season!

Maybe it's time the Captain took them!

Whoever takes them needs to borrow Klopp's magic trainers to take them in.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.

Offline the dude abides

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 8113
  • that rug really tied the room together
    • View Profile
Re: Season 2017/18
« Reply #119 on: November 04, 2017, 07:28:14 AM »
I always took the penalties for the team I played for.

There is no divine right to score. 

Milner didn't miss his penalty. The keeper made a good save.

Milner would be my penalty taker.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.