What will it take for this fool to go?

[centenaryjonny]

Now I am fully aware that the fact that I think Rafa has turned us into a laughing stock means that I am obviously not a Liverpool fan or know anything about football, and the fact I have held a season ticket for the past 17 years is highly irrelevent, but here goes anyway!

There is a post on here about how Rafa is under pressure because he's foreign!  Now Ive heard a load of excuses in the past few years, in fact from when he first came, when we finished behind Evertn in 5th, but this is a new one to me!

So it begs the question, which such blind faith and backing, what will it take for people to change their mind?

It seems that the Rafa fans think football, or at least Liverpool began in 2004, but lets compare the record of Rafa an the man whos job he took.

GH:
Seasons: 5
Trophies won: 6
Highest League Position: 2nd
Spent: £116m
Recouped: £51m
Nett: £67m

RB:
Seasons: 5
Trophies won: 4
Highest League Position: 2nd
Spent: £247m
Recouped: £134m
Nett: £113m

Now back in 2004, there wasnt a single person other than Phil Thompson wh wanted GH to keep his job, as he was seen as a failure.  When he took over the club in 1999, Liverpool had won just 3 trophies in the 9 previous years, and nothing fo he past 4, yet despite winning 6 trophies in his 5 years, he was accused of spending too much, and taking the club nowhere. 

Skip forward 5 years and we have a man who has spent double the money in the same amount of time, achieved the same in the league and won just over half as much!  Yet, this man is seen as a saint, the saviour, the one to take us forward, is it only me who sees this as strange?

RB has signed 76 players so far, now when you take into cosideration that Gerrard and Carra have been ever presents, that is 8 players for every position!  8 different players!  Its even worse when you remember that for the past 5 years Hyypia was there and for 4 of the 5 Riise wasalso there so how can this squad be the finished article?

It is not only the transfer fees that have to be taken into account, everytime we sign a player, there is a signing on fee, an agent fee, and their wages until they are eventually shipped off.  We officially have the third biggest squad in europe, yet we are struggling the moment we get more than one injury!  We have seen this week that we spent £70m on agents fees last year, now everytime we buy a 'promising star' whom we never see again, we have to pay this players agent.

One of the main things thrown against GH at the end was the signing of Diouf.  £10m wasted on a striker/winger who had some talent, but was clearly out of his depth at Liverpool and often seemed uninterested

Skip forward now to Mr Ryan Babel.  £12m wasted on a striker/winger who has some talent, but is clearly out of his depth at Liverpool and often seems uninterested. 

GH wanted to sign Ronaldo 6 months before he went to Manure, but was told that £12m was too much to spend on an untested talent of a 19 year old.  3 years later, RB buys Ryan Babel, an untested 19 year old talent.

Out of 76 players, there are maybe 10 players who you could say are good enough for Liverpool.  Included in this list are Agger, who can only play 10 games
a season, and Aquilani who hasnt yet played!  So 66 have been a waste of time in the long run!

So if he's not great in the transfer market, then he must be tactically astute? Ha!!!!

Every fan in the country knows we are useless at defending set pieces, and its not just the set piece itself.  The fact that we have EVERY player in our penalty area means that IF we clear the ball, it comes straight back in, and either leads to a goal, or is hacked away for another set piece!  Now thisis supposed to be a top European club, not a pub team, why do we have 5 players marking the penalty spot and no one picking up the other players?  Why when it is clear to everyone that it doesnt work is it not changed?  What sort of tactical genius persists with something that is costing your team points?

So being manager of a top European club must mean that only the other big clubs can knock you out of cup competitions? Not Burnley (4 years before they were a PL team), Barnsley, Benfica, Fiorentina, Spurs (Bottom of the league, 1 win in 18 games) Everton (after 2 games) 

We would surely not drop points EVERY season at Anfield to newly promoted teams?

We would see a 'plan B' in place if the game is going against us.

Hs substitutions are both predictable and pathetic.  Last week agaist City, we needed a goal, so what does he do, replaces Benny with Aurelio!  Takes off an attacker for a left back!  He hs had Aquilani on the bench for a month now!  Claiming he is not match fit, yet how can he be if he is not played?  He sayshe wont rush someone back from injury, yet Torres was playing with injections until a clearly unfit Gerrard was rushed back!

So if he is useless at tactics, and not the best at transfers, surelyit must be his sparkling personality and people skills.

How many players leave Arsenal or United and slate Wenger or Taggart?  Compare that to the amount of e players who have taken a swipe at Rafa, why?

He has publically slated the owners, the CEO and the general running of the club on a few occasions, how dare he?  Only last week he was saying what a big Madrid fan he was and naming the team from 1981.  Now can he name the Liverpool team that beat his precious Madrid that day?  I doubt it, yet we are paying him £4m a year!

He made a fool out of himself and the cub with his Fergie rant last year, and it stank of desperation!

So why is this man not only still employed, but so highly regarded by so many? 

This is area question, I actually want to know what it is, and why GH didnt have it?

[BandWMisery]

Eww I can answer these like the pro Rafa fans...

He has created more points ... Ok won't mention it doesn't really matter if you have x points if you're still 3rd or 4th in the table all it really reflects is the state of the league as a whole.

He does more in Europe, Won, final, semi, qf, out irrc nowt to say I actually think he's Good in Europe but they would claim he is improving yet irrc he's getting knocked out earlier and earlier. Also as it really is little more than a cup competition I wonder why the same don't work for the domestic cups.

But, but he's not had that to spend he only gets xyz, yeah yeah no one will tell me why there isn't a squad of 16. So he's not had that much to spend OK so we're comparing to AW mmm well he loses that comparison.

As for give him more time at Valencia he also inherited a squad, has had a little to do with the youth. I also suspect he was far more removed than the God like hand he's been given. Me wonders how the youth are doing this season. Now he has got what he wanted OK accept a little early but unless it is turned around not looking good at the mo.

As for why better than GH I have no excuses, I've yet to see anything beyond points and Europe. GH was 5th won a cup then 4th before he departed. Not to mention in some seasons even 4th didn't qualify for Europe. Yet RB hasn't had a cup for 3 seasons.
GH 7th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 5th, 4th.
RB 5th(Lucky to be Europe the following year), 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 2nd 
I think we might accept he's gained one place in consistency for the money spent. Last year isn't the consistency

So all that money spent and he's basically jostling just above AW who made 35 mil last year has a stadium and is paying it off.

I hope you get some answers than just mine but I've asked similar and had little response.

Edit then you have who
But they wouldn't of had AW, not to mention 2 domestic leagues and UEFA cup does open it up a little more but the names bandied about are bigger hitters than that.

[Irish_Mark]

I'm really tiring of this crap. I'm not even going to read this

[centenaryjonny]

I'm really tiring of this crap. I'm not even going to read this

HA!!!

Whats the matter someone ruining your argument that RB is god by throwing a few facts in like he's spent twice as much and won half as much as the man he replaced?

Not to mention the fact that £14m of that money was spent on Ciise, who GH never got to work with, so you could actually take that money off GHs total and add it to RB, but hey, that would be petty!

Your response doesnt really surprise me though, you seem to sum up the argument that pro-rafa, often irish fans have, 'erm, I'm going to ignore that, Rafa is great!!!!'

But thanks again for leaving a response on something that you admit to not reading!! Fool.

What does it look like in the sand?

[Kopite999]

I hope your still posting at the end of the season. Its easier to criticise than to support in bad times. Personally i'm looking forward to a nice trip to Hamburg and bringing home the Europa Cup.

[centenaryjonny]

I hope your still posting at the end of the season. Its easier to criticise than to support in bad times. Personally i'm looking forward to a nice trip to Hamburg and bringing home the Europa Cup.

Hey I'm not trying to criticise, it is something I honestly dont understand.

How can one manager be called from every angle, have everyone in the stadium against him and be sacked on the grounds that he can take us no further, yet his replacement spends twice as much money to win half as much, achieve exactly the same in the league, yet be a hero?

It makes no sense!!!!

As for the Europa league, I want to win everything, but I dont really think its anything to get excited about, can you imagine what we'd say if United were in it? For a club the size and power of ours to be excited for winning a european trophy that is also contested with Fulham is a bit of a joke!!

Of course I want to win everything, but it will be a bit bitter sweet to do so, dont you agree?

As for Rafa, I have thought him to be a useless excuse of a manager ever since we lost to Sao Paulo in December 2005. And nothing since has convinced me otherwise, however, as I said before, I simply want to know why GH was villified, yet RB is applauded for doing half as well whilst spending twice as much?

Again, a simply answer, and not an insult would be great

[Kopite999]

Our hand has now been dealt in Europe. Yeah i'd rather be in Madrid in May, who wouldnt, but being in Hamburgs the next best thing. I didnt go to Dortmund in 2001, but the fans i know that went rave about it being one of the best european ventures they been on. I'll be trying to get flights sorted next week. Optimistic or stupid i for one would love another european final. It may not rank as highly as Istanbul,and other finals but the experiance of travelling with the red army on the continent for a final cannot be beaten.

 

[Juan]

As for Rafa, I have thought him to be a useless excuse of a manager ever since we lost to Sao Paulo in December 2005. And nothing since has convinced me otherwise, however, as I said before, I simply want to know why GH was villified, yet RB is applauded for doing half as well whilst spending twice as much?

Centeraryjonny everyone is entitled to their opinion on Rafa. What I find hard to take is that you say you thought he was a "useless excuse of a manager ever since we lost to Sao Paulo in December 2005".

Thats fair enough but why is it only now then that you join a forum like this to have a go at the guy.

Where were your complaints when we were reaching the Champions league final in 2007 or finishing runner up in the league last may if you lost faith in him back in December 2005.

I just find and this isnt necessarily directed at you centeraryjonny that some fans will shout a managers name from the rooftops when they are doing well but the support quickly dries up at the first sign of trouble.

[centenaryjonny]

Centeraryjonny everyone is entitled to their opinion on Rafa. What I find hard to take is that you say you thought he was a "useless excuse of a manager ever since we lost to Sao Paulo in December 2005".

Thats fair enough but why is it only now then that you join a forum like this to have a go at the guy.

Where were your complaints when we were reaching the Champions league final in 2007 or finishing runner up in the league last may if you lost faith in him back in December 2005.

I just find and this isnt necessarily directed at you centeraryjonny that some fans will shout a managers name from the rooftops when they are doing well but the support quickly dries up at the first sign of trouble.

Hey, believe me I was there, a were lot of the lads who sit by me at the match!

Last season was a joke, I doubt there will ever be an easier time to win the league! To think had we managed to score 2 goals against Stoke we would be champions just hurts!!  Chelsea changed managers half way through the season and were miles off the pace, whilst Manure were struggling at the start, then went to Japan halfway through the season!  We let a 12 point lead slip to being being 4 points behind!  To go over a month without a win was just embarassng!

The CL is a cup competition, and as such can be won by a team with the right draw, a bit of luck etc, it should not be used to judge a manager the way the league is.  The fact that we managed to get to the final 2 out of 3 years is surely proof of that, as is the fact that the AC Milan Retirement home achieved the same!  Porto won it the year before us, and Arsenal were in the final a year later.  If it is a way to messure the success of a manager, then surely getting knocked out in the group stages by two relative no marks counts against Sir Rafa?

The league is how we judge managers, it always has been, and Rafa has achieved the same as Houllier, having spent twice as much in the same time, so my question simply is why does he still have a job and such a misguided aura around him?

[harry]

Take heart.  I think this season might be a real eye-opener for the majority of fans who still support RB.  Liverpool might have the better players coz of its ability to attract bigger name players due to its reputation but Spurs, Villa and City are managed by managers who understand the EPL better and as such, I fancy them have a real go at the top four. 

Dun get me wrong....I hope liverpool will be in CL but sometimes, it is better to endure short-term pain and go through long-term suffering.    One seaons w/o CL will not be enough for the owners to sack RB but it will open up the eyes of pro-Rafa fans.  You can't blame pro-Rafa fans for being so supportive of him coz RB has played the political game very well.

It is interesting that in these difficult times, only the Spanish players whom RB signed have come out openly to support RB.  SG and JC have remained silent apart from the former rallying everyone to stick together.  Not surprising, RB has come out and praised JC for "being back to his best".  he has continued his politcal games.  He knows he cannot lose the dressing roombut there is only so much politicking can help.

Sooner or later, he will lose the support of the important players.  It is only then that the owners might finally have the guts to sack him. It is too bad that we a set of bad owners and that gave him the veil to hide behind.  But he won't be able to hide foreover.

I do think that he is a better manager than GH but that is still not enough.  People keep crediting him for the CL triumph but that has as much to do with the  strength of EPL  plus the fact that they were out of running for the title as early in Jan so that the players can focus on the CL.  Luck also played a major part (think of Garcia's goal agst Chelsea and Shevcheko's incredible miss in the dying mins in the final).

[centenaryjonny]

Take heart.  I think this season might be a real eye-opener for the majority of fans who still support RB.  Liverpool might have the better players coz of its ability to attract bigger name players due to its reputation but Spurs, Villa and City are managed by managers who understand the EPL better and as such, I fancy them have a real go at the top four. 

Dun get me wrong....I hope liverpool will be in CL but sometimes, it is better to endure short-term pain and go through long-term suffering.    One seaons w/o CL will not be enough for the owners to sack RB but it will open up the eyes of pro-Rafa fans.  You can't blame pro-Rafa fans for being so supportive of him coz RB has played the political game very well.

It is interesting that in these difficult times, only the Spanish players whom RB signed have come out openly to support RB.  SG and JC have remained silent apart from the former rallying everyone to stick together.  Not surprising, RB has come out and praised JC for "being back to his best".  he has continued his politcal games.  He knows he cannot lose the dressing roombut there is only so much politicking can help.

Sooner or later, he will lose the support of the important players.  It is only then that the owners might finally have the guts to sack him. It is too bad that we a set of bad owners and that gave him the veil to hide behind.  But he won't be able to hide foreover.

I do think that he is a better manager than GH but that is still not enough.  People keep crediting him for the CL triumph but that has as much to do with the  strength of EPL  plus the fact that they were out of running for the title as early in Jan so that the players can focus on the CL.  Luck also played a major part (think of Garcia's goal agst Chelsea and Shevcheko's incredible miss in the dying mins in the final).

A lot of sense spoken there, especially when talking about the political side of it all.  He has for a long time been playing a game with the fans, with more spin than a Gerrard free kick!

First off, signing Fowler.  Everyone knew he was finished, but everybody loved him, and loved RB for bringing him home,  however, his move was for more political than footbal reasons.  Still struggling in the league, after finishing 5th, out of the CL, Fowler gave the fans a lift, and RB some praise.  The fact that he only played for 10 minutes was irrelevant!!

The Yanks.  Now nobody is truly happy with them, but Rafa has played this card to perfection.  By costantly bemoaning the fact that he has no money, he has no only given his failing team an excuse, but driven a divide between himself and the owners, with the majority on his side.  These however are the facts.  RB has spent more money than any other Liverpool manager.  He has broken the clubs transfer record for every out field position on the pitch.  LB - Dossena, RB - Johnson, CB - Skrtel, Agger, RM - Kuyt, LM - Riera, CM - Alonso, Masch, CF Torres.  That is without Babel, who could be themost expensive on either side, more than both Riera and Kuyt.  Now the fact that 7 of these 11 players have been bought since the yanks have come tells a different story than RB would have you believe.  With the Yanks money, he has broken Liverpools transfer record for 7 POSITIONS IN 2 YEARS!!!!!  Not bad for someone who has no financial backing!!

His Fergie rant, now everyone agrees with him, it is common knowledge, but doing it in the way he did and at the timme he did was total desperation!  From being top over christmas with Utd in Japan, we went a month without a win, and handed the league to Utd!  By having his rant, he as no different to Keegan, yet some of the RB lovers actually missed the desperation of this and saw his slating of United as him being 'one of us'!

On selling Robbie Keane he declared himself happy with the strikers at the club, then when we didnt win the league he said it was because Torres was out for so long. 

In the summer he refused to sell Voronin, saying he had a future at the club, i think he has featured in 3 games this year.

Last summer he tried to sell Alonso to anyone who'd listen for £15m, yet this summer he tried to keep hold of him despite Madrid offering £30m, saying he'd tried everything but the player wanted to go.

We were told Aqualani would be out till October, it is now December, and he has played less than half an of first team football, in fact he has not featured (30 seconds doesnt count) since the Birmingham game at the start of November!  A month ago!  Now either he isnt as good as RB thought, or he is keeping him away as yet another excuse for his teams failings.  He said last week that he will never rush players back, yet Gerrard hasnt been fit since his return, and Torres was playing with injections and had to be rushed off as soon as we took the lead!

     

[the dude abides]

Now I am fully aware that the fact that I think Rafa has turned us into a laughing stock means that I am obviously not a Liverpool fan or know anything about football, and the fact I have held a season ticket for the past 17 years is highly irrelevent <snipped the rest of the blathering>

you sound an awful lot like a nutball from the Liverpool usenet forum, called 'Pompous Pope'. 

Anyways, it's quite obvious that the folks in here have no time for you, or your other persona ('harry').

so rather than try and promote aggravation in the forum, why don't you just p.iss off

and take Misery with you.

[centenaryjonny]

you sound an awful lot like a nutball from the Liverpool usenet forum, called 'Pompous Pope'. 

Anyways, it's quite obvious that the folks in here have no time for you, or your other persona ('harry').

so rather than try and promote aggravation in the forum, why don't you just p.iss off

and take Misery with you.

And there my point is proven!!

It is similar to the story of the 'emporers new clothes'. If anyone say anything against Rafa, they are not met with resonable responses, as the pro rafas havent been told what to think this week!  They are instead met with unnecesarry abuse and told to go away.

I've got news for you dude.  Nobody seems to use this site PERIOD!  When one of the main posters is apparently an Irish man from USA, then you can guess at the amount of common sense on show!

Every argument/discussion we have had in my short time on here you have failed to point one singe valid point across, nd instead have to stoop to simple name calling!

I'm assuming, as this seems to be a pro rafa site, that the majority of the normal posters hav disappeared since th drop in form,and will soon pop up like a bunch of mouth blue noses once we get a win on wednesday!

So Dude, please, no name calling, no nonesense, a simple discussion about the club that we both apparently love so much.  Simple question.

How can one manager be sacked, after the fans hate him, and because he can apparently 'take the club no further', yet another manager after spending twice as much and winning half as much is loved by so many?

VERY SIMPLE QUESTION, JUST YOUR OPINION, NOT ABUSE, AN ANSWER.

Thanks

[Juan]

I'm assuming, as this seems to be a pro rafa site, that the majority of the normal posters hav disappeared since th drop in form,and will soon pop up like a bunch of mouth blue noses once we get a win on wednesday!

How can one manager be sacked, after the fans hate him, and because he can apparently 'take the club no further', yet another manager after spending twice as much and winning half as much is loved by so many?

VERY SIMPLE QUESTION, JUST YOUR OPINION, NOT ABUSE, AN ANSWER.

Thanks

To be honest Centenaryjonny I think its testament to the Liverpool fans that the team can go on a bad run like this and still not call for the managers head.

One of the things that attracted me into supporting LFC when I was growing up was the so called "Liverpool Way". Managers were always given the time and backing of the board, fans were patient and what ever happened managers were never sacked, there was a parting of ways.

But in an era when we arent by any means the richest team, we are competing against two multi billionaire owners in the Sheik and Roman, when we are competing against a United side that sells out a 76000 seater stadium week in week out you would expect Liverpool fans to be even more rational than ever. But instead the so called Liverpool way seems to have disappeared when its needed most. Competition for the top spot is tougher than it ever was.

You keep going back to Houllier, a manager that i admired greatly right up until the time he left. He put Liverpool back on the map as far as Europe was concerned, he built a team a good team with a strong spine but that never challenged in the league. Surely the fact that Benitez could take a team built by Houllier add a couple of players and win the champions league validates the boards decision to have made that change.

Houllier may have won us cups finished second in the league but he never built a team that actually challenged like we did last season. You can finish second and never really challenge and you can finish second running the eventual winners close all the way as we did last season.

Houllier didnt have to put up with the boardroom squabbling, one owner trying to take his job. For the most of his time at Liverpool he had the backing of Moores and Parry and that is something you cannot say Benitez was afforded by Hicks and Gillette.

Benitez has built a team that has year in year out finished in the champions league positions, that has made 2 european cup finals in 5 years, won and fa cup yet fans still complain. His average net spend per season is roughly 20 million yet you still expect him to finish above teams with net spendings of 2 or 3 times that amount.

The fact that the most successful manager in the league took 7 seasons to win the league should be example enough for you to get behind Benitez instead of calling for his head. Where would United be today if Ferguson had been given the bullet. They wouldnt have 18 league titles. That doesnt mean Rafa will be as successful as Ferguson has been but I certainly think his track record in the his 5 years shows without doubt that he should be afforded more time. 

If you want to see a managerial merry go round Newcastle is your club. But this is Liverpool and although at times it seems dead and buried I still like to think the Liverpool Way is alive and kicking. That means supporting the manager whoever that may be when the chips are down. Try becoming part of the solution and not adding to our already growing list of problems

[the dude abides]

It is similar to the story of the 'emporers new clothes'. If anyone say anything against Rafa, they are not met with resonable responses, as the pro rafas havent been told what to think this week!  They are instead met with unnecesarry abuse and told to go away.

you are abusive and deliberately divisive.

what's this endless rubbish you (and your puppets) spout re 'pro-Rafa's'?

Liverpool fans are pro-Liverpool Football Club.

so stop with the childish attempt at trying to divide the supporters.

I've got news for you dude.  Nobody seems to use this site PERIOD!  When one of the main posters is apparently an Irish man from USA, then you can guess at the amount of common sense on show!

if you're so smart, then how come you're in the tiny tiny minority who want rid of Rafa then?

I'm assuming, as this seems to be a pro rafa site, that the majority of the normal posters hav disappeared since th drop in form

this site is a pro-Liverpool FC website.

How can one manager be sacked, after the fans hate him, and because he can apparently 'take the club no further', yet another manager after spending twice as much and winning half as much is loved by so many?

Liverpool, despite having relatively little to spend, have managed to hang in there, at the top end of the league.....even managing to challenge United for the title last season. 

Plus, we have enjoyed a golden era (our best ever) in Europe, these past 5 seasons.  This is illustrated by UEFA's ranking of the club.