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Author Topic: What will it take for this fool to go?  (Read 26355 times)

BandWMisery

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2009, 02:27:07 PM »
@ Koppite99

Some of those are cop outs and BBC 5 radio answers...

Who would you get in if the requirement is 2 league titles from the big 3 and Europa/Uefa cup holder, not the just the aspirations of Mourinho I'm pretty sure in that field it opens it up quite a bit not even a CL winner needed. It is an unknown why does it always get defended with who, you can't say it won't or will work for all we know MON could turn up and rule the world with you.

TBH I actually would disagree about Mourinho and could see how the challenge would appeal to his ego... Whether he got beyond the interview I wouldn't like to speculate.

Then what is the comparison with Newcastle I see this all the time, how about comparing to Chelsea. Or probably half a dozen other teams that don't give there manager 6 seasons(Christ you compared it to 11 in 5 years that isn't a comparison, I see 7 on wiki but suspect they have some interim managers missing)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 02:36:08 PM by BandWMisery »

Offline Redman

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2009, 02:32:26 PM »
Couldn't be arsed quoting all of Pope's ranting from a few posts up but you ask why Rafa is still in charge, well I have no idea, best you write to Hicks or Gillete and ask. As for all the points you've levelled at Rafa, everyone of them can be levelled at Hulahoop when he was in charge. Let's also not forget it was Phil Thompson who was in charge when we won our highest ever points tally in the Premiership at that time until Rafa beat it last season. Something most of the Hulahoop fans really couldn't resist rubbing in the face of Rafa supporters. Dire negative football! well you surely must remember some of the utter crap I had to watch under Hulahoop, sitting back defending 1 goal leads, losing to the so called smaller and weaker sides in the league at the time, it happens to every manager at some point, get over it. Move on with your life, Hulahoops been gone 6 long years now, stop crying and get behind the team even if you don't support Rafa.

Redman
“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.”

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Offline Redman

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2009, 02:36:25 PM »
Now I'll try to not retort with BBC 5 comments ;)

If you'll play I'll have a crude attempt at actually making the point they struggle with.

My God, why the f**k is a so called Newcastle fan analysing Rafa under a microscope? Have you nothing better to do with your time? Can't you go analyse Newcastle/Chelski/Manure/Arsenal? Or are you another of Pope Pumparse's aliases?

Redman
“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.”

Nikola Tesla

BandWMisery

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2009, 02:44:04 PM »
I can't win either way can I ;) this site is clearly unfriendly maybe your the dude abides puppet.

Offline Kopite999

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2009, 03:06:32 PM »
@ BandW Misery

Didnt it take your fans 4-5 months to turn on Big Sam with the 'u dont know what ya doing' chants? And wasnt that game 5-1.Not bad for a defensive team. In my opinion you wouldnt be where you are now if your fans had patience.Things arent always greener on the otherside

BandWMisery

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2009, 03:16:48 PM »
I agree totally.. Sadly the Geordies don't I think there is 2 sides to this the fans that just want to win and the fans that want entertainment. I think in respect for NUFC entertainment will always come first, well at least until there is some good structure behind the club. Whether the same should be applied to your selves I'm not going to comment. I'm probably in the minority or seeing things more objectively but I've seen glimpses of some really nice pressure football from Liverpool this season.

I also feel there is a lot of justification for keeping Rafa if for no other reason than stability.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 03:21:37 PM by BandWMisery »

Offline Kopite999

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2009, 03:23:45 PM »
I havent seen to much quality this year due to players in and out of the side with injuries, but last season there were some machine like performances that resembled the team Rafa had at valencia.

BandWMisery

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2009, 03:33:00 PM »
I'll end up a schizophrenic, I really do see both sides. I have formed an opinion of Rafa which is in this thread earlier, but that can be susceptible to change and is based on what I've seen not what could or will happen.

As for injuries mmm I'm still suspect of that fitness coach, he was one of ours not sure when we had the injury filled season or whether he was with us then but I have my suspicions.

I really do try to keep out of keep or go to me both sides have valid arguments.

Edit
First half Arsenal there was a lot of pressuring and again Wigan in bits and pieces OK probably no long spells but more over the 90 than just a half. I think some is related to confidence and 16 back 4's say a lot.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2009, 03:35:01 PM by BandWMisery »

centenaryjonny

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2009, 04:55:44 PM »
Now I'll try to not retort with BBC 5 comments ;)

If you'll play I'll have a crude attempt at actually making the point they struggle with.

Now the question you pose is why pay Rafa 4 mil when he does a worse job than GH..
I think this a little unfair the question is Why should he be given more time? which is easier to answer.

But lets first try, now if we take the Arsenal match team...
Reina
Magic Cara Agger Aurelio
Masch Aquilani
kuyt Gerrard Benayoun
Torres

Now with an exception of a couple of players some already there, the odd one i.e Agger vs Hypia surely that is an upgrade from GH's team? Then you have Ngog/Reira

Now some arguments are based on so many transfers but how many are reserves or youth? For sure he's made mistakes as has every manager. But the last 2 seasons he hasn't been given a huge amount of funds...

Glen Johnson     £17,500,000                     Sami Hyypiä     Free           
Chris Mavinga    Signed                          Jack Hobbs    Signed         
Stephen Sama    Free                            Paul Anderson    £250,000         
Alberto Aquilani    £17,000,000             Sebastian Leto    £1,300,000         
Sotirios Kyrgiakos    £1,500,000              Astrit Ajdarevic    Free         
                                                Jermaine Pennant    Free    
                                                Alvaro Arbeloa    £3,500,000
                                                Xabi Alonso    £30,000,000
                                                Shane O Connor    Free         
                                                Adam Hammill    Signed         
Total    £36,000,000                      £35,050,000                        £950,000

Philipp Degen     Free                    Anthony Le Tallec     Undisclosed           
Andrea Dossena    £7,000,000              Harry Kewell    Free         
Diego Cavalieri    £3,500,000      Peter Crouch    £10,000,000         
Robbie Keane    £19,000,000             Danny Gutherie    £2,500,000         
Vitor Flora    Signed                 John Arne Riise    £4,000,000         
Alberto Riera    £8,000,000              Scott Carson    £3,250,000         
David Ngog    £1,500,000              Steve Finnan    £1,000,000         
                          Robbie Keane    £12,000,000
Total    £39,000,000              £32,750,000                    £6,250,000

Now that is little over 7 Million is this enough for a team contending for 4th place?
Then if we factor wages in as well

Chelsea 149Mil
Manu 121Mil
Arsenal 101mil
Liverpool 89Mil

So recently he hasn't been given the funds and the wage bill doesn't match Arsenal. So it some where inbetween Arsenal and Manu doesn't have the funds to buy willy nally and doesn't have the wages to offer to prospects. So his mistakes stand out more.

Now there is arguments for he is over achieving in the recent seasons so why do you feel he isn't over acheiving? Now we touched youth earlier so lets expand on this a little now Rafa wasn't happy with the youth setup(For sure you can criticise him for this but hindsight and all that)so ... Now he has in place what he feels is needed shouldn't he be given time to see if it bears fruit?

OK so I see some arguments seem to be placed around the style now(Here I will struggle but lets try), now you highlight several points from the Wigan match and sticking to plan but unless I'm mistaken didn't it start 4-4-2 no lone striker there, and also change it to 4-5-1? You also mention the defensive midfield now I accept there is some truth in that, but really OK mistakes have been made but in the short term(Lucas vs a temp signing) is Aquilani defensive? But if I'm honest I'm not going to defend him or condemn him for points lost this season or gained last season. The fact you've lost your midfield general has an impact now we can assign blame but lets just call it a mutual leaving in the end. So should Rafa not be given time to find his new midfield general? OK so you don't like his style but has style won Arsenal anything, didn't Mourhino get sacked for "style" reasons? What I'm trying to highlight is with the means given and certainly taking into account the last couple of seasons on the transfer market what else can he do, great attacking pacy scorers cost more than your Liverpool records?

Then the crux of it all what ever way it is dressed Rafa has done more in Europe than GH ever did as this is the money maker should he not continue? As it looks like revenue is a struggling point for Liverpool at the moment, with the owners mismanagement. In to my final bit can you trust your owners to appoint the correct person? The last person rumoured was Jurgen "bloody" Klinsmen. Coming from a club that has seen Souness and BS disasters mixed with other temps some worse some better, I ask is the road you wish to take or perhaps shouldn't you keep Rafa if for no other reason than stability? If you change it will also mean a huge change right through the club structure, could the club take that?

Firstly thank you for actually being able to think and to bother actually writting your opinion.  There are a few good points made, and I will try and explain my views, or to offer the side of the argument.

BEFORE I DO, REDMAN, PLEASE STOP SIMPLY WRITING ABOUT ME, AND CONCENTRATE ON LIVERPOOL, ITS GETTING SILLY NOW.  AS IVE ALREADY SAID TO YOUR MENTOR DUDE, LOWER CENTENARY ROW 21 SEAT 53. EVERY HOME GAME.  COME AND HAVE A CHAT IF YOU ACTUALLY GO TO THE MATCH.

Ok, first you mention the team against Arsenal, so ok, lets compare it to the team he inherited from GH.

Reina - Dudek
Johnson - Finnan
Cara- Cara
Agger - Hyypia
Aurelio - Riise
Smicer - Kuyt
Gerrard - Gerrard
Masch - Hamman
Yossi - Kewell
Lucas - Baros
Torres - Ciise

Now, obviously as GH normally played 442, Ive had to compare Lucas to Baros, and I honestly would prefer Baros up front with Torres than Lucas in midfeld.  I also didnt include Aqaulani because he didnt start.

Reina is better than Dudek, although shot stopping are similar, Reina has better distribution and more authority

Johnson vs Finnan is a close one, Johnson is better attacking, Finnan is a better defender, so it depends on what you are after

Agger vs Hyypia, goes to Sami, no offence to Agger, but Hyypia wins hands down

Aurelio vs Riise, again hands down to Riise

Smicer vs Kuyt, Closer than you may think.  Smicer always promised more than he gave and Rafa promises more than Kuyt gives!  As attacking threats, I would have to give it to Smicer, as a team player it goes to Dirk, so overall, I suppose Dirk shades it

Masch vs Hamman.  Again terribly close, they are actually very similar, so I would call this a draw.

Yossi vs Kewell, Hands down to Yossi, but then a traffic cone could win this one

Torres vs Ciise, Again hands down to Torres, obviously.

So thats 4 to Rafa, 2 to GH and a draw.  So basically in 5 years and after £228m and 76 attempts RB has 2 better players in his team than GH.

I shall deal with the rest in a bit, need something to eat first

centenaryjonny

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2009, 05:40:54 PM »
In the above post it should read Rafa 4, GH 2 and 2 draws, not 1.

Anyway, to the next point, there is a popular myth that RB has no money, or that he simply has to raise his own funds which as I will now explain is complete nonesense.

In the 5 years since RB took charge, he has spent MORE NETT than ANY OTHER manager in PL.  Now that includes Wenger and Fergie.  SO how can this argument still stand?  NETT, for those of you dont understand is the difference between what you spend and what you raise.  So the difference is more for RB than ANYONE ELSE!

In that time, and strangly since the Americans have taken over, (the Americans he claims dont back him) he has BROKEN THE CLUB TRANSFER RECORD for EVERY OUTFIELD POSITION, SOMETIMES MORE THAN ONCE, they are as followers:

RB Johnson
LB Dosenna
CB Skrtel
RM Kuyt
LM Riera
CM Masch/Aqualani
CF Torres

Now that is without the £12m for Babel because apparently he has no position and without the £20m for Keane, because he since got £12m of that back

So other than outspend EVERY OTHER manager in the PL, and break the TRANSFER RECORD FOR EVERY POSITION, you are right, he has no money.

Now onto Alonso, our midfield general?  Its amazing how quickly things are forgotten in football.  In the summer of 2008 RB was offering Alonso for £15m to anyone who would listen, including Arsenal and Juventus, who both said no.  Skip forward a year and RB is moaning that he wants to go to Madrid for double that amount!

So either Rafa was WRONG to try and sell him for £15m or to try and keep him when offered £30m

The youth argument is an interesting one.  It was GH who set up the academy in the first place, and we had more players come through during his 5 years than Rafas.  Given that GH only had the academy to work with for 2.5years, thats not bad.  He brought through the likes of Neil Mellor, Jon Ostemobor, Stephen Warnock, Stephen Wright, and whilst admitedly these are no world beaters, they have all if nothing else earned RB some money from their sales, and without them his NETT spend would look even worse, just like when players who never broke into the team like Danny Guthrie have been sold and the money given to RB.

It is always hard with kids because unless you try them you dont know.  Will Pacheco thrive or wilt under the pressure, same with Spearing, or will he do the opposite?  However, one thing is for sure, if you dont try you'll never know.  RB has been there for 6 summers now, so 6 lots of lads have graduated from the academy, yet we havent seen any of them, so why bother with an academy?  Why not close it down and simply spend the money it costs on buying players?  We are told that RB has signed 76 players because a lot of them are kids who need to develop, yet I'm still waiting.  So give RB the benefit of the doubt, and pretend he actually knows the academy exists, but no one can claim he is doing a good job there because it hasnt produced any players!

The argument that we should keep RB simply for stability is no reason to pay someone £4m a year, especially when he provides anything but this.  Stability like publically slating the owners?  Like forcing his apparent key players like Alonso to leave? Like arguing with half the managers in the league?

What sort of ambition does that show?  It shows less ambition than his teams.

And I'm not a GH fan to answer a previous post, infact I feel the same way about Rafa than I did about GH, but to say that he played football as negative as Rafa is simply not true.  Heskey, Owen were often played together and added into this when Fowler had gone were Anelka and Baros, and he didnt have chance to use his biggest signing Ciise, now how is that as negative as Torres or Ngog up front on there own with the rest of the team inside their own half?  Counter attacking football is fine, Arsenal play it, United have done it for years.  They break at pace and its exciting to watch, again not particularly negative.  So again, get your facts right before just branding insults around




Red Jesus

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2009, 06:43:24 PM »
I personaly don't think we should get shut of Rafa yet, after all jonny Houlier had 2 bad season before they got shut of him.  Yes you can argue that Rafa has spent more money than him and has won less but since Rafa has Houlier went Rafa has had to not only compete with United but also Chelsea's money which has inflated the price of players.  You should also take into consiceration that since Houllier left the amount of money comming into football has increased expodentially.

I do think you have some good points to make but I believe the earliest we shoudl think about getting shut of Rafa is at the end of the season not now.  I do share your views that he has squandered his money and that he has used the excuse that he has no money to his advantage and yes a lot of people are now starting to question him and his actions, but like I said although I respect your opinion I dont agree that we should get shut at the moment although if things donty improve then we shoud use all the reasons you list to get shut apart from the number of honours as you dont have nay right to win anything, unless the loss is directly because his actions.

Offline Redman

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2009, 04:32:03 PM »
I can't win either way can I ;) this site is clearly unfriendly maybe your the dude abides puppet.

The true facts are that The Dude and I know each other from way back on the Liverpool newsgroup when as you are well aware Pumparse, you destroyed that newsgroup and continue to do so with your anti Rafa postings

Redman
“Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine.”

Nikola Tesla

BandWMisery

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #72 on: December 19, 2009, 04:56:49 PM »
LOL

Not even worthy of a response you and Dude keep deluding your selves, that we're some kind of puppets even in the 10 or 20 posts I read I know you're talk s***e.

The writing styles are so different it is nothing but flame bait coming from both of your mouths.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 04:57:52 PM by BandWMisery »

Offline the dude abides

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2009, 07:30:42 PM »
The true facts are that The Dude and I know each other from way back on the Liverpool newsgroup when as you are well aware Pumparse, you destroyed that newsgroup and continue to do so with your anti Rafa postings

Redman

exactly, redman.

Pompous Pope, with his endless flames and nutty rants, destroyed a great newsgroup. 

It would be really cool if he could p**s off and leave this forum alone.

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2009, 07:34:21 PM »
I can't win either way can I ;) this site is clearly unfriendly maybe your the dude abides puppet.

why don't you pi.ss off and support your own club.



In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.