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Author Topic: What will it take for this fool to go?  (Read 25842 times)

centenaryjonny

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2009, 08:48:44 PM »
Hey Juan,

Thanks for actually putting forward an argument, and hopefully this wll be the start of a sensible discussion.

Whilst I agree with some of your points, there are one or two that I dont. 

You say that RB is the first one to have a team 'challenge' for the title.  We 'challenged' for the title for about 3 weeks.  Up until beating United, we were well out of it, we had already thrown away any chance we had by going a month without a win, but after beating them, then Fulham, and Fulham beating them, there was a moments excitement, but in truth, no one outside of Anfield thought we had a chance.  We finished the season 4 points behind United, whilst Houllier finished 7 points behind Arsenal and 3 points above United. This brings up two very good points:

1.) When GH finished 2nd it was the first time for 11 years we had done it, thus a GIANT leap forward, following the failings of 2 previous managers.  When RB did it, it was 7 years later, and for 5 of those years RB WAS IN CHARGE!!

2.) GH finished 3 points above United, now in the 5 years of RB's reign, he has SPENT MORE NETT THAN FERGIE!!!! So themoney argument goes out of the window and the closest has got is 4 points behind!!

You say about the 'Liverpool Way', thats all well and good when al is well and good, but whe its clearly not working, as we have won NOTHING for 3 years and have the worst squad in the top 10, then maybe its time for a change.  Ancelotti has gone to Chelsea, signed one player, and has got a team playing great football and winning.  It doesnt always take time, a good manager is a good manager.  Tell me honestly if Fergie, Wenger, Ancelotti, even Moyes, Redknapp, ONeill took over for the rest of the season, and RB took over their teams , who do you think would finish higher? 

The problem with taking time, is that sometimes, you dont have it.  2 of our best 3 players are Gerrard and Carra.  Now Carra is 32 next month, whilst Gerrard will be 30 in the summer.  So at best we will get 2 maybe 3 seasons from Carra and 4 maybe 5 seasons from Stevie.  But only probably 2 with Stevie at his best.  We have already seen that we are useless when these players dont play, so how do we replace them?  We apparently have no money, are already out of this seasons CL and title race, so wheres our glorious future?  We need to be winning things now, whlst we still have these 2, and under RB I cant see that happening.

Unlike you, I didnt 'pick' my club.  My father is from Liverpool, as is his father, as was his father, they all supported Liverpool, and thus there was no 'choice' when it came to me.  My own son is now 7, and is a walking encyclopedia on Liverpool already, so please dont dare suggest that because I want the best for my club that I should go and support Newcastle, or tat Ishold instead get behind them.  I havent missed a match at Anfield for 17 years, so please dont lecture me on the Liverpool Way or anything else you may have seen on LFC TV.  The 'Hallowed Turf', The 'Boot Room', The 'Sweat Box'.  It means nothing to RB, he has caused most public rifts with the owners in a desperate attempt to get the fans onside.  Do you really think Shankly would be proud ofthis current shower?  He'd be doing 360s in his grave if he could see the state of the club he built from nothing!   


centenaryjonny

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2009, 09:05:40 PM »
you are abusive and deliberately divisive.

what's this endless rubbish you (and your puppets) spout re 'pro-Rafa's'?

Liverpool fans are pro-Liverpool Football Club.

so stop with the childish attempt at trying to divide the supporters.


if you're so smart, then how come you're in the tiny tiny minority who want rid of Rafa then?


this site is a pro-Liverpool FC website.


Liverpool, despite having relatively little to spend, have managed to hang in there, at the top end of the league.....even managing to challenge United for the title last season. 

Plus, we have enjoyed a golden era (our best ever) in Europe, these past 5 seasons.  This is illustrated by UEFA's ranking of the club.





My God, are really that hard of thinking, okay, bit by bit

'The small minority'  There was recently a 'pro-rafa' march, I think it was before the Hull City game.  Out of the 46000 at the game, do you know how many marched? 1500!!!!!!!!!!  So I think 1500 out of 46000 is the minortiy, not theother way round.  These are people who actually go to the games, see his tactics first hand, and want him out.

'Our best ever period in Europe'? Really? So in 6 years, there has been 1 QF, 1 SF, 2 Finals and a Win.  Not bad, seems as though we're getting worse, but still a good achievement.  However not quite as good as 3 Wins in 6 years, or 4 wins in 8 years, I think that would be known as our 'best ever period in Europe', and also bear in mind that had the rules not been changed to let eveyone play in the CL, RB wouldnt have qualified at for the European Cup!!  So go and read your history before making stupid comments!

'Liverpool having relatively little to spend' is a common myth.  Relative to what? Itself, it so, RB has broken the clubs transfer record for every position on the pitch, and if he has no more money, maybe its because he has bought 10 players for EVERY OUTFIELD POSITON since his arrival!!!!! If you are comparing us to United, our biggest rivals, RB has SPENT MORE NETT THAN FERGIE in the same space of time.  In fact, With the possible exception of Mark Hughes RB has OUTSPENT EVERY MANAGER IN THE LEAGUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lastly, I am not trying to divide supporters, I want the best for Liverpool.  I wanted that when I was saying GH should go, and I want that now.  So please, do just make stuff up to try and make a good argument, because you clearly dont know a lot about the club.     

buck

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2009, 10:32:28 PM »
Well as a Welshman who occasionally posts on here, everyone is entitled to their opinion centuryjohn, even though I totally disagree with yours.  However, by your standards the only people who can have a valid football opinion are "English" people, no doubt only people who are true Scousers while everyone is a stupid foreigner.

So by you making ignorant, racist and derogatory remarks why should I bother even lowering myself to having any kind of discussion with you, a so-called supporter of LFC.

Offline Ed

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2009, 11:07:37 PM »
I agree with the Dude!

In general I'm not happy (in fact I'm seriously pissed off) about how we started this season and fair enough the buck stops with Rafa regarding that. But I don't feel the need to question the managers ability on a weekly basis ad nauseum.

In particular, those people who claim to attend matches weekly (season ticket holders since 1892) should get down and dirty with proper arguments about players, systems and tactics rather than regurgitating tired arguments about money and transfers that even people that don't know what football is are probably familiar with by now.

wittsy

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2009, 12:18:45 AM »
It really isn't worth answering anything sensible to these posts as what ever we say will be turned by some or totally ingored. If you want to know why there is little activity on here these days it is because anti Rafa minded people came on and hijacked every post with the opinion that we are all idiots because we don't want Rafa dead..

We've had a bad start... BIG DEAL  shed happens..

Jas

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2009, 02:43:33 AM »
'The small minority'  There was recently a 'pro-rafa' march, I think it was before the Hull City game.  Out of the 46000 at the game, do you know how many marched? 1500!!!!!!!!!!  So I think 1500 out of 46000 is the minortiy, not theother way round.  These are people who actually go to the games, see his tactics first hand, and want him out.

bloddy ell, your analysis of events and data is bizarre (to say the least).

I still think you're that infamous nutball from the Liverpool usenet forum - who calls himself, Pompous Pope.

'Liverpool having relatively little to spend' is a common myth.  Relative to what? Itself, it so, RB has broken the clubs transfer record for every position on the pitch, and if he has no more money, maybe its because he has bought 10 players for EVERY OUTFIELD POSITON since his arrival!!!!! If you are comparing us to United, our biggest rivals, RB has SPENT MORE NETT THAN FERGIE in the same space of time.  In fact, With the possible exception of Mark Hughes RB has OUTSPENT EVERY MANAGER IN THE LEAGUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lastly, I am not trying to divide supporters, I want the best for Liverpool.  I wanted that when I was saying GH should go, and I want that now.  So please, do just make stuff up to try and make a good argument, because you clearly dont know a lot about the club.     

you're not a genuine supporter of the club. And you're only here to stir trouble and aggravate.  But I'll give you this much, you're no newbie to discussion forums.  You display a fair bit of experience. 

Where you fall down (in trying to wind up people) is that there is no fun in your posts.  They lack any humour or any hint of genuine analysis.

As has been said above (by Wittsy), the reason this forum has died these past few weeks, is because of you and Misery.  I deliberately stopped responding to you both, some weeks back.  I didn't want to clog this place up in negativity/flames.  I'd have been giving you both (you and Misery), exactly what you wanted. 
 
Anyroads, let's have a look at your notions that we have spent more than our Premiership rivals.

I'll let Paul Tomkins fill in the details.


So what does it cost to achieve success in the Premiership? The following is an in-depth look at the costs involved in challenging for the title, and why, based on everything barring history and prestige, Liverpool have no right to expect to be any higher than 4th on any given season.

Using a mixture of data from ‘Red Race: A New Bastion’, updated (2009/10) versions of that analysis and information gleaned from new highly reputable sources, this is a fairly definitive account of the wherewithal required to win the Premiership in the current climate.

For me, it is a must-read for Liverpool supporters, because it is all about putting the expectations into context.

In their excellent new book, ‘Why England Lose: and Other Curious Phenomena Explained’ (aka ‘Soccernomics’), Simon Kuper and Stefan Szymanski note that while money spent on transfers does have a bearing on success, it is wages that make the greatest difference: an 89% correlation between how much a club spends on wages and how successful it is (based on data from 1998-2007).

Of course, the best players demand the biggest wages; sometimes this will mean paying a large fee, but it could also mean getting a ‘free’ transfer (that costs £121,000 a week, or £30m in total, as seen with Michael Ballack) or, of course, hanging on to your existing stars who would otherwise be tempted away.

My own data shows that there is actually a strong correlation between success and the money spent on transfers, particularly in the most recent Premiership seasons. Kuper and Szymanski’s sample period of 1978-1997 takes into account the time before transfer spending had such a great effect; prior to the mid-’90s, cheaply assembled and newly promoted teams could win the league. It predates Chelsea’s mega-spending, which effectively ended the hopes of a lower-spending side like Arsenal of winning the league, particularly when big spending is allied to world-class management.

My own Relative Transfer System compares eras in what I feel to be a more accurate way, because it converts fees to a percentage of the then-record transfer. As detailed in Red Race, teams ‘need’ to have an average of 32% of the transfer record to be successful in the modern era; in other words, by today’s terms, the average cost of a strongest XI has to be around £11m per player to land the English title. My research also shows that this figure needs to be even greater to win the Premiership for the ‘first’ time.


Squad Costs

Let’s start with last year’s results from my own research, given that it is a full set of data, gleaned from the entire 2008/09 season. (The number crunching behind this can be found in this downloadable PDF, Red Race Stat Pack.)

Note: the figures used for transfers were meticulously researched, but there will always be discrepancies due to undisclosed fees, estimates, swap deals and countless confusing clauses. In all cases, the maximum payable fee when including all clauses is used; hence Robbie Keane, sold back to Spurs for a minimum £12m, is listed as £19m, because the Reds could end up receiving that amount.


Based solely on the cost of all players used over the course of the campaign, Liverpool ‘should’ have finished 5th in the league; it obviously doesn’t work that way, but it highlights the difference in wherewithal with other clubs.

In the cases of Spurs and Manchester City, it could be argued that the managers were working with a lot of players they didn’t especially want –– particularly so in the case of Harry Redknapp, who inherited a ragtag collection of costly signings. Indeed, the Spurs situation is quite reminiscent of Roy Evans’ tenure at Liverpool, where his own expensive signings were mixed with the costly deadwood of his predecessor, which is never easy to shift without incurring a massive loss, and certainly can’t be done overnight.


Of course, these squad costs don’t give the true ‘price’ of each transfer at the time it was made. Managers in position for longer will be able to call upon expensive players bought earlier in their reigns, when each £1m went further.

But given that clubs need to spend greater amounts for incremental improvement at the top end of the table –– where there’s less scope to make a difference –– it’s no surprise to see the big four in the lower half of this particular list.

Of course, having an expensive squad doesn’t mean that players were always available; a lot of talent can sit out the campaign with injuries. It gives greater scope to choose from, but what were the most costly sides last season?



The above table includes a ‘before’ and ‘after’ for Manchester City, whose spending increased notably in the winter transfer window, adding £22m to the average cost of their Starting XI, to take it above Liverpool’s.


Wages and Wherewithal

The one big expense that is always overlooked [as backed up by the subsequently published findings of the Soccernomics book] when discussing the wealth of a club is wages. Fans will often make calculations based on transfer fees but fail to consider that a £30m player can also cost £30m in wages over a five year period.

If you don’t have as much wealth as other teams, but are expected to compete, then you need to find special men who put football before their wallet. Fernando Torres is such a player: he has a deep respect for the manager, loves the club and its fans, and has stated that he’d rather earn less money and be happy than be “greedy” and go elsewhere. Of course, he gets well remunerated for his efforts, and earned a pay rise in 2009 that didn’t extend his contract beyond 2013, but which included the option of a further year. Even so, he could have earned a lot more elsewhere, but his character and loyalty had already been seen at Atletico Madrid, where he stayed longer than many expected.

But these types of players –– world-class but humble –– are as rare as Halley’s Comet sightings coinciding with a solar eclipse and a Sean Dundee goal. If it’s hard enough for a manager to find the player he wants, it’s harder still to broker a deal that suits all parties if unable to pay the going rate.

And so Liverpool remain well adrift of the other big payers, as can be seen in the table below, which is based on the most recent set of financial figures in the public domain. Liverpool have handed out a few pay rises to players in the meantime, but the other big clubs have done the same for some of their stars. Obviously the big change since then will be Manchester City, who have handed out £100,000-a-week wages to numerous players in the past 12 months.



All figures taken from each club’s most recently published accounts.

The table clearly highlights the gulf in spending power: Chelsea were paying more in annual wages for the year to 30 June 2008 than the cost of the entire Liverpool squad that ended the 2008/09 season.

One potential problem the Premiership faces is the new 50% English tax law for annual earners of more than £150,000; by comparison, Spain cut taxes in the top bracket to 23% for the first five years of employment –– originally to encourage top business executives to the country, but was expanded to footballers when David Beckham moved to Real Madrid in 2003. This will benefit the big Spanish clubs when it comes to luring the top players (therefore an issue with Liverpool’s battle to retain La Liga targets Xabi Alonso and Javier Mascherano), and also means that a club like Manchester City, where money is no object, can pay extra to overcome the deficit in a player’s pay packet. There were reports of City offering Samuel Eto’o a mind boggling £250,000 a week to try and bring him to the Eastlands from Barcelona, which highlights how far they are prepared to go.

English clubs will now have to increase players’ wages to overcome the shortfall that has occurred since their original contracts were signed –– although in the case of Fernando Torres, Steven Gerrard, Dirk Kuyt, Yossi Benayoun and Daniel Agger, that has already been addressed by Rafa Benítez.

While my research for Red Race looked at the entire Premiership last season, the main interest obviously now lies with the big six – the recently established ‘big four’, plus Manchester City and Spurs, whose spending demands greater scrutiny.

For example, when Liverpool lost to Spurs on the opening day, the Reds’ side cost £95.8m compared with the Londoners’ £135.2m. People can talk all the want about Benítez’s spending, but the fact is he has never been able to have an expensive team, because he’s often had to sell in order to buy.

Harry Redknapp is doing a very good job at White Hart Lane, but he has already been able to field a more expensive side that Benítez has managed in over five seasons.

It will be easy for the critics to blame Rafa Benítez if Liverpool drop out of the top four, or indeed, even fail to win the title, but all the evidence, in terms of wherewithal, continues to point to the fact that, in reality, Liverpool should be finishing further off the pace.
In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

BandWMisery

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2009, 02:00:07 PM »
Quote
.. is because of you and Misery..

What puerile behaviour! It has nothing to do with us in fact even 6 mths ago. this forum fluctauates between no posting and some and has done for over 18 mths.

http://www.anfieldroad.co.uk/forum/the-rest/dudetess-where-have-you-disappeared-to/

Not sure what I've done to you to get that kinda of response(I've never said anything about the Irish is this misdirected anger) so I'm left with school playground mentality.

You post nothing then basically take pot shots at me and you wonder why people don't hang around. Forums have opinions and many times you just may not agree but to resort to playground behaviour is defeatist.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 02:02:35 PM by BandWMisery »

Offline the dude abides

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2009, 02:47:02 PM »
Not sure what I've done to you to get that kinda of response(I've never said anything about the Irish is this misdirected anger) so I'm left with school playground mentality.

You post nothing then basically take pot shots at me and you wonder why people don't hang around.

your primary purpose in here, seems to be the endless slagging of Rafa Benitez.

You are divisive, like centenaryjonny, in constantly refering to what you call the *pro-rafa's*

As a Newcastle United fan, I'm unclear as to why you seem to think you know so much about Liverpool FC.  Your inability to listen to Liverpool fans arguments/experiences is difficult to fathom. 

Given what has happened to Newcastle United, after sacking loads of managers across recent seaons, I'd have imagined you might have learned something from that (and not been as insistent that Rafa gets shown the door).

I enjoy reading other peoples views.....especially from other club's fans.  But I don't like seeing the level of disrespect that you are showing in here. 


In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

BandWMisery

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2009, 02:53:07 PM »
Show me the disrespect? You seem a touch touchy to be using a public forum...

Just because an opinion doesn't agree with yours doesn't mean disrespect.

As for comparing to us that is absurd we're not talking 5 managers in as many years but a manger who's had 6. You only have to look about there is a lot of smoke and it isn't just the sky fans.

I make no claims to knowing your history how did you get to that conclusion you seem to read a lot that isn't typed.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2009, 04:36:21 PM »
Show me the disrespect? You seem a touch touchy to be using a public forum...

Just because an opinion doesn't agree with yours doesn't mean disrespect.

As for comparing to us that is absurd we're not talking 5 managers in as many years but a manger who's had 6. You only have to look about there is a lot of smoke and it isn't just the sky fans.

I make no claims to knowing your history how did you get to that conclusion you seem to read a lot that isn't typed.

look at the title of this thread - *What will it take for this fool to go?* - which you and jonny, are only to happy to stir and keep going.  If this thread isn't disrespectful then what is.

But you have been pushing this negative crap for ages.  Have you no Newcastle forum to go and reside in?

Of course the irony is that despite your endless abuse of Rafa, you and jonny throw the toys out of the pram when you yourselves get slammed.  A touch sensitive?  If you can't take it then don't give it out.

You say that there is a lot of smoke (against Rafa).  I don't see any smoke.  Look at the regulars in here (disregard jonny-come-lately).  Have you seen one who wants Rafa sacked?  I haven't. 

And in all the other forums, it's largely the same.  Only a tiny minority are against Rafa.  The vast vast majority respect his efforts.

But I still keep wondering, that as a newcastle fan, what the hell you are doing in here, showing this level of disrespect.

If I were in a newcastle forum, I'd be showing a helluva lot more respect for your club (than you are for ours).....and I'd be listening a lot more, as opposed to lecturing/pontificating.

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

BandWMisery

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2009, 04:56:19 PM »
You still cant show me the disrespect then? Then I tried rather nicely in my thread but got nothing but at least here it did get answered it would seem you need to disrespect you to get a reply. You use one example as disrespect. In fact if you look I have my own thread which I asked far nicely than this and agreed with a fair few comments. Was asked to clarify my questions which I did still no response.

The only person showing disrespect is your self when you don't agree with some ones opinion. Though until you dragged me into this I actually didn't think this was the case.

The reason this forum is unpopular is the kind of childish behaviour you exaggerate when the opinion goes against the grain.

As I wouldn't argue with a child I can no longer be bothered with you.

If you actually look at my postings my slagging of RB and wanting him gone are in your imagination. I asked for clarity and some understanding to which you rather rudely managed to do in this thread. I have only bought him up in the 2 relevant threads, no where else feel free to look. Not that I expect an apology from such puerile behaviour.

Offline the dude abides

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2009, 05:14:08 PM »
The reason this forum is unpopular is the kind of childish behaviour you exaggerate when the opinion goes against the grain.

rubbish.

as someone said earlier, many people lose interest in posting, when they see the endless negativity/aggravation that you and jonny push in here.

As I wouldn't argue with a child I can no longer be bothered with you.

excellent.  And take Jonny with you.


If you actually look at my postings my slagging of RB and wanting him gone are in your imagination. I asked for clarity and some understanding to which you rather rudely managed to do in this thread. I have only bought him up in the 2 relevant threads, no where else feel free to look. Not that I expect an apology from such puerile behaviour.

you never had any interest in 'clarity'  re Rafa and the club.

Indeed, it's fascinating (and very telling), that given the extreme 'clarity' that is displayed in Paul Tomkin's detailed article (above), you haven't even touched on it.

Of course the truth would contradict your long since established view of Rafa.

In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

BandWMisery

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2009, 05:21:49 PM »
I've comments about them but tbh with the disrespect you're showing I'm not wasting my time.

We now need the relevant figures for the top3/4 during GH's time.

Then you should have a team that should of got results this season against certain teams.....

But I'm really p**sed off with how you have viewed me. So argue with centenaryjonny you have decided that I have this xyz view yet my postings contradict your imagined ideal.

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2009, 05:41:05 PM »
I've comments about them but tbh with the disrespect you're showing I'm not wasting my time.

We now need the relevant figures for the top3/4 during GH's time.

Then you should have a team that should of got results this season against certain teams.....

But I'm really p**sed off with how you have viewed me. So argue with centenaryjonny you have decided that I have this xyz view yet my postings contradict your imagined ideal.

Paul Tomkin's article is very detailed.....possibly one of the most detailed you will find on the topic.

But if you want to step back a tad, and be more objective re Rafa, then fine.  I'll happily chat with you and buy you a beer.  I don't have any problem with forgiveness (re the lack of respect shown to this point).

As for continued discussions with jonny - I will soon be ignoring him again (like most in here have seemingly been doing).


In the midst of winter, I finally learned that there was, in me, an invincible summer.

There’s no next time. It’s now or never.

BandWMisery

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Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2009, 06:11:22 PM »
I've always been objective but this figure malarkey gets in the way so many times and it isn't just here.

TBH yeah those figures don't make the best but I'm not sure the ones judging him are basing it just alone on squad depth. Lets put it this way I think we both agree that Man city are paying over the odds and I suspect also in the wages. A fine example is Torres with your self Real Madrid couldn't get him(iirc). Liverpool will always have the picking of the crop OK so it won't be the top of the crop money does come into it. As a professional footballer playing for Liverpool where ever you're from has to be a pinnacle.

I have to agree that figures don't make rosy reading but that isn't just it all.(The fact in % wise your is quite high proves revenue needs to be increased). OK perhaps it might of got bench sitters sitting quieter. But who else has lets be frugal and say 80 mil pound(I'm sure we could go a bit more but age etc I think 80 is fair enough) in attack?

Lots of complaints at the moment are more related to playing style not just lack of depth. OK youth is perhaps something yet to tell, I hope for your sakes it is shaping up.

I have to admit yes the money side of it does come into it, but all honesty I feel last year was a blip, I've seen it mentioned tha Alonso upped his game to get out for a variety of reasons. I for one don't dispute letting him go it seems a lot deeper than what is rumoured. I would guess it was an amalgamation of things not a single thing.

What I see the critics disliking is that at the time it was Barry and Keane for Alonso. I've made my opinions of the front 2 I do think with Gerrard and Torres up top keeping a 2nd striker will always be difficult. For sure Keane wasn't working out but would he really of been that different with Barry?

Honestly I've tried selling Keep Rafa to my brother honestly he is no longer surprised at the passing back in play and another draw.

With out seeing how GH was backed I think the comparison to the top 4 is a little wrong, who's not say had GH had that kind of money he wouldn't of achieved the same(OK not quite, I think you where right to get rid, but I also wonder whether it now has reached RB's time)? I was under the impression he also was badly backed in the transfer market correct me if I'm wrong.

I do see it from both sides but Money isn't the be and end all, I'm sure if I look I can find someone on this forum laughing going galiticos can't buy a win. But yes I do accept if you put enough quality on it can play its self(We're a prime example).

The opinion there isn't any one better is really an unknown, it could just as easily work or not.

My honest opinion is he should be given to the end of the season then some reflection. I also think there is replacements out there but whether they are better or worse can only be surmised. After watching him I actually think RB is a good lift the team managers with a squad, my own opinion is I'm not sure of team building(Note ambiguity neither bad or good). Valencia wasn't his team, really only time will tell but if the only reason for keeping him is because there is no one better than I have to question that.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 06:17:05 PM by BandWMisery »