What will it take for this fool to go?

[dazrenco]

How Can that idiot blame the Ref? 

We are shine-a-light ! at the moment - All season we have been crap(ok at times unlucky too) but we dont even look like a team ..

Disjointed, negative, but at least now WE ARE consistant  ! consistantantly crap !

[Irish_Mark]

Reina - Dudek
Johnson - Finnan
Cara- Cara
Agger - Hyypia
Aurelio - Riise
Smicer - Kuyt
Gerrard - Gerrard
Masch - Hamman
Yossi - Kewell
Lucas - Baros
Torres - Ciise

My estimation on this would be:

Reina over Dudek. Reina is far sharper, great distributor of the ball as you said and decent record with pens.

Johnson - Finnan: As stated, hard to call. Huge fan of Finnan. A bit disappointed when he left but I think Rafa was justified in the end. Johnson I think, was a great signing. But time will tell.

Agger - Hyypia: To be fair, it's hard to beat a legend and wonderful servant like Sami. Possibly our greatest signing of all time.

Aurellio - Riise: John, it has to be.

Smicer - Kuyt: I was a big fan of Vlad, served us well and had his qualities, although I'd have Kuyt before him based on his record in front of goal as well as his work rate.

Masch - Hamann: Very tight. Considering Hamman retired, Masch was a good replacement. Hamman was a better footballer, but Masch brings a different element.

Yossi - Kewell: Yossi, all day long.

Baros - Lucas: I did like Baros, but his record wasn't good enough. Backed him (at 80/1) to be top scorer in the Euros in '04!! But I do have this loyalty to Lucas. I do like the lad. He's shown great character considering the dogs abuse he got from his own fans. I think he has the makings of a good footballer if even a good backup.

Torres - Ciise: Torres.

[Gurdeep]

....but at least now WE ARE consistant  ! consistantantly crap !

Sorry but that made me chuckle.

I think us supporters are all feeling the pain, none more so that Rafa himself.  Regardless of whatever happens manager wise, lets just try to support LFC and the players as much as possible.

The 12th man is needed big time!  Lets stand up and be counted!

[Irish_Mark]

Sorry but that made me chuckle.

I think us supporters are all feeling the pain, none more so that Rafa himself.  Regardless of whatever happens manager wise, lets just try to support LFC and the players as much as possible.

The 12th man is needed big time!  Lets stand up and be counted!

Absolutely... Agree 100%. I know too many posters (on other forums) calling for Rafa's head, and consistently calling him a 'donkey' etc. while laughing at how we are doing... Hoping we lose so he'll leave. Ridiculous

[Tes]

Now I am fully aware that the fact that I think Rafa has turned us into a laughing stock means that I am obviously not a Liverpool fan or know anything about football, and the fact I have held a season ticket for the past 17 years is highly irrelevent, but here goes anyway!

There is a post on here about how Rafa is under pressure because he's foreign!  Now Ive heard a load of excuses in the past few years, in fact from when he first came, when we finished behind Evertn in 5th, but this is a new one to me!

So it begs the question, which such blind faith and backing, what will it take for people to change their mind?

It seems that the Rafa fans think football, or at least Liverpool began in 2004, but lets compare the record of Rafa an the man whos job he took.

GH:
Seasons: 5
Trophies won: 6
Highest League Position: 2nd
Spent: £116m
Recouped: £51m
Nett: £67m

RB:
Seasons: 5
Trophies won: 4
Highest League Position: 2nd
Spent: £247m
Recouped: £134m
Nett: £113m

Now back in 2004, there wasnt a single person other than Phil Thompson wh wanted GH to keep his job, as he was seen as a failure.  When he took over the club in 1999, Liverpool had won just 3 trophies in the 9 previous years, and nothing fo he past 4, yet despite winning 6 trophies in his 5 years, he was accused of spending too much, and taking the club nowhere. 

Skip forward 5 years and we have a man who has spent double the money in the same amount of time, achieved the same in the league and won just over half as much!  Yet, this man is seen as a saint, the saviour, the one to take us forward, is it only me who sees this as strange?

RB has signed 76 players so far, now when you take into cosideration that Gerrard and Carra have been ever presents, that is 8 players for every position!  8 different players!  Its even worse when you remember that for the past 5 years Hyypia was there and for 4 of the 5 Riise wasalso there so how can this squad be the finished article?

It is not only the transfer fees that have to be taken into account, everytime we sign a player, there is a signing on fee, an agent fee, and their wages until they are eventually shipped off.  We officially have the third biggest squad in europe, yet we are struggling the moment we get more than one injury!  We have seen this week that we spent £70m on agents fees last year, now everytime we buy a 'promising star' whom we never see again, we have to pay this players agent.

One of the main things thrown against GH at the end was the signing of Diouf.  £10m wasted on a striker/winger who had some talent, but was clearly out of his depth at Liverpool and often seemed uninterested

Skip forward now to Mr Ryan Babel.  £12m wasted on a striker/winger who has some talent, but is clearly out of his depth at Liverpool and often seems uninterested. 

GH wanted to sign Ronaldo 6 months before he went to Manure, but was told that £12m was too much to spend on an untested talent of a 19 year old.  3 years later, RB buys Ryan Babel, an untested 19 year old talent.

Out of 76 players, there are maybe 10 players who you could say are good enough for Liverpool.  Included in this list are Agger, who can only play 10 games
a season, and Aquilani who hasnt yet played!  So 66 have been a waste of time in the long run!

So if he's not great in the transfer market, then he must be tactically astute? Ha!!!!

Every fan in the country knows we are useless at defending set pieces, and its not just the set piece itself.  The fact that we have EVERY player in our penalty area means that IF we clear the ball, it comes straight back in, and either leads to a goal, or is hacked away for another set piece!  Now thisis supposed to be a top European club, not a pub team, why do we have 5 players marking the penalty spot and no one picking up the other players?  Why when it is clear to everyone that it doesnt work is it not changed?  What sort of tactical genius persists with something that is costing your team points?

So being manager of a top European club must mean that only the other big clubs can knock you out of cup competitions? Not Burnley (4 years before they were a PL team), Barnsley, Benfica, Fiorentina, Spurs (Bottom of the league, 1 win in 18 games) Everton (after 2 games) 

We would surely not drop points EVERY season at Anfield to newly promoted teams?

We would see a 'plan B' in place if the game is going against us.

Hs substitutions are both predictable and pathetic.  Last week agaist City, we needed a goal, so what does he do, replaces Benny with Aurelio!  Takes off an attacker for a left back!  He hs had Aquilani on the bench for a month now!  Claiming he is not match fit, yet how can he be if he is not played?  He sayshe wont rush someone back from injury, yet Torres was playing with injections until a clearly unfit Gerrard was rushed back!

So if he is useless at tactics, and not the best at transfers, surelyit must be his sparkling personality and people skills.

How many players leave Arsenal or United and slate Wenger or Taggart?  Compare that to the amount of e players who have taken a swipe at Rafa, why?

He has publically slated the owners, the CEO and the general running of the club on a few occasions, how dare he?  Only last week he was saying what a big Madrid fan he was and naming the team from 1981.  Now can he name the Liverpool team that beat his precious Madrid that day?  I doubt it, yet we are paying him £4m a year!

He made a fool out of himself and the cub with his Fergie rant last year, and it stank of desperation!

So why is this man not only still employed, but so highly regarded by so many? 

This is area question, I actually want to know what it is, and why GH didnt have it?

OK, CJ, Rafa goes, so who would YOU replace him with?  A positive critique of the qualities of your nominee, just as indepth as the list of Rafa's failings would be a nice balance.

[the dude abides]

Pompous Pope thinks Houllier played awesome football.

And Pope still thinks the league cup and uefa cup wins are better achievements than Rafa's success in the CL.

The lad's powers of analysis are somewhat limited.

[Tes]

Pompous Pope thinks Houllier played awesome football.

And Pope still thinks the league cup and uefa cup wins are better achievements than Rafa's success in the CL.

The lad's powers of analysis are somewhat limited.

Likewise comparing Rafa's spending totals with Houllier's, without acknowledging the increased cost of buying players since 2005.

My parents paid £2000 for their brand new 2 bedroom detached bungalow with integral garage in 3/4 acre of land in 1959, so when my sister bought a 2 bed terraced house with only a path width yard and no place to park a car for £89,000 in 2006 she obviously paid more than 4000% over the odds.

[the dude abides]

Likewise comparing Rafa's spending totals with Houllier's, without acknowledging the increased cost of buying players since 2005.

My parents paid £2000 for their brand new 2 bedroom detached bungalow with integral garage in 3/4 acre of land in 1959, so when my sister bought a 2 bed terraced house with only a path width yard and no place to park a car for £89,000 in 2006 she obviously paid more than 4000% over the odds.

your sister obviously paid way way over the odds (according to Pope) for her house.  She had so much money to call upon, unlike your parents, and yet ended up with a tiny place.

With his powers of analysis, Pope could get a job in 11 Downing Street (or the equivalent in Dublin).

[wittsy]

There is one small problem with all the comments on how much Rafa has spent.. when you consider that the only player we have sold for real value was Alonso (£30 mill) and all these amazing GH team player left for pennies because nobody actually wanted most of them.. One other thing forgotten is that if you were to take one player out of UTD sales list their nett spend is quite different ( eg £80 mill for Ronnie ). It doesn't matter how you analyse it it will be a never ending debate..

There's no point in talking about Rafa going and we should blame blah blah .. he's still here and we have to win games with what we have, why not talk about that. I still think we have a better first team than Villa, Spurs and no worse than City (although we should improve the overall squad). I would say that UTD have a better squad but not much better in their first 11. I hate to say it but the two London clubs do look very strong though.. Lets see where we are in a couple months, there's no reason we can't get 4th ( YET )..

[centenaryjonny]

exactly, redman.

Pompous Pope, with his endless flames and nutty rants, destroyed a great newsgroup. 

It would be really cool if he could p**s off and leave this forum alone.

A great news group?

What news is this?  The front page only gives the result when we win!  No mention of the Portsmouth match, still on about the team for Wigan!!

Have a look through, the last match report was against Everton!

It seems to upset you when people state facts, when the VERY obvious is pointed out.  Why is this?  Have you noticed where we are in the league?  Have you noticed we are out of the CL?  Why not spend your time watching a match instead of coming on here with nothing to offer other than abuse?

You and your puppet seem to be in the minority both on here and certainly at Anfield.  Next time you bother to watch a game have a listen to see if the crowd chant Rafas name.  In these times of crisis when the manager is under pressure surely the fans would offer their support for him if they were of the same thinking as you?  Havent heard his name chanted since the United game, when to be honest the crowd will chant everything when we are beating them.

I really dont understand why you feel so strongly about something, yet offer no retort other than have 2 line rants about the posters.  Either you feel strongly, but cant form any kind of argument, or you just want to be different and dont know enough about the subject, either way, it seems a bit pointless. 

[the dude abides]

It seems to upset you when people state facts, when the VERY obvious is pointed out. 

on the contrary, when FACTS are posted, you disappear and/or refuse to discuss them i.e. Tomkins very detailed factual article.  Of course, the facts don't suit any of your arguments.  Thus, you don't want to see them.
 

Why not spend your time watching a match instead of coming on here with nothing to offer other than abuse?

oh you're so precious.

You start abusive threads, like this one......and then you get your feelings all hurt, when someone fires abuse back at you.

Obviously you are good at giving abuse out, but start to cry when you are abused back.

You're such a hypocrite.

[Irish_Mark]

You and your puppet seem to be in the minority both on here and certainly at Anfield.  Next time you bother to watch a game have a listen to see if the crowd chant Rafas name.  In these times of crisis when the manager is under pressure surely the fans would offer their support for him if they were of the same thinking as you?  Havent heard his name chanted since the United game, when to be honest the crowd will chant everything when we are beating them.

Eh, they quite clearly chanted his name at the Wigan game.

[Gurdeep]

Eh, they quite clearly chanted his name at the Wigan game.

Selective hearing Mark 

[centenaryjonny]

Dude you do make me laugh.  Please tell me how I have 'started an abusive thread'?  Unless you are Rafa, then there is nothing abusive in this thread, and I'm sure at £4m a year, he wont mind my little view on him!

Ive not been on here since before christmas in the hope that some normal, well balanced answers would be given, but alas, I am still waiting.

To the person who compared a transfer from 2003 to a transfer in 2004 as thesame as a house in 1959 to a house in 2006, well I dont think theres much I need to say about that.  This would be a fair comparison if I was comparing the cost of a Rafa transfer to one made by Shankly, but otherwise it just makes you look silly.

 To whoever else said that I 'loved the way we played under Houllier', when have I ever said that?  I hated the way we played, we played negative counter attacking football.  One thing that you cannot argue with is that it was more succesful, ie. we achieved the same position in the league and won more trophies.  So how can anyone argue that Rafa is a better manager after spending TWICE as much and winning HALF as much?  My original question that still remains unanswered!

Someone else said that 'IF United hadnt sold Ronaldo they would have spent more money!' So? They did sell Ronaldo.  And we sold Alonso, which had we not means we have spent more even if they had kept Ronaldo!  And in that time when we have spent MORE than United we have won the CL and FA Cup, they have won 3 PLs, CL, 2 LCs, and the World Club Cup, so it kind of puts Rafas achievments compared to money spent into persepctive. 

The 'bad Houllier players that we had to give away because nobody wanted them' Would they be the same players that won the CL?  Would they include the likes of Hyypia, Riise, Hamman, Finnan and co, who were first teamers until recently, and went to another CL final?  Seems that since these 'flops' have gone, we have got worse!

When Houllier was in charge our best 2 players were Carra and Gerrard, now 76 players and £228m later, our best 2 players are Gerrard and Carra.  All that has happened is that they have aged 5 years in the meantime!

Look at this transfer window, and its a prime example of what I think is wrong with Rafa.  There are players who we all think will leave this window, such as:

Dosenna - Bought for £7m, been paid wages for the past 18 months, pretty much lost the Tottenham game in the LC on his own, and now we will be made up if we get £4.5m back for him!

Babel - Bought for £12m, paid wages for 2 and a half years, promised each week to get a run of games, been played out of position when he does get picked and will either be sent on loan, or sold for under £8m.

Voronin - Ok a free transfer, but still paid wages every week, and we were told by Rafa at the start of the season that we didnt need another striker because we had voronin back from loan, after 3 games, he now doesnt want him.

The man doesnt have a clue, thats why hes bought nearly 10 players for EVERY position since hes been here, and Im sure in this window he will sign a few more.

The difference between a good manager and Rafa was shown over the weekend.  Liverpool had another classic performance against Reading, and Rafa said after the match 'I was pleased with the character, Reading played well because they were on TV and I'm relieved to get another chance at Anfield.'  Meanwhile, United lost to Leeds, and fergie said 'That game was disgusting, I was going to use those players on Wednesday, but they will NOT play now, we werent good enough.'  Now obviously Liverpool are still in the cup and United are out, but my point is there is one manager who wants to win and takes pride in his team and thier performance, and another who is happy not to lose, and makes excuses for his team.  Now I HATE Taggart, but I would rather have someone with his mentality than the negative nutcase we currently have.

Rafa has said that we are struggling because Torres has been out, yet United sold Ronaldo, who was the best player in the world last year, and have won their CL group, are 2 points off the top and have a semi final tonight.  The reason that we miss Torres so much is that we can stick everyone else behind the ball and hoof it up to Nando to chance until he tears another muscle.

Dude I'm assuming the whole 'pope' thing is still being aimed at me, and I'm assuming it is simply because you are unable either through lack of knowledge or ability to create a well reasoned reply, but I can assure you, I am, and never have been on any other forums, and certainly would not choose the name 'pope', as I am an athiest!!!!!!  But if it makes you feel like you are making a contribution to the argument, then you continue.

I'm also assuming as nobody approached me during the Wolves game that either the loud mouth Rafa lovers who were saying I dont have a season ticket either dont go to the match themselves, or are only loud mouth on a forum.  If anyone would just like a friendly chat and a brew though against Spurs on Sunday, I'm Lower Centenary, Row 21, Seat 53.

Happy New Year to all!!!

[Ageing Stick Insect]

CJ,

I'm only going to reply to a couple of your comments as I have no wish to get into a long debate.

Dude you do make me laugh.  Please tell me how I have 'started an abusive thread'?

That's easy. The title of your thread was abusive to Rafa. He certainly isn't a fool in my opinion. How can anyone who has risen to managing a Premiership club be considered a fool? It say's more about you than Rafa that you would use such a word. Quite honestly it's something I would expect a kid to use - not an adult.

So how can anyone argue that Rafa is a better manager after spending TWICE as much and winning HALF as much?  My original question that still remains unanswered!

Because there is no law that say's the more you spend the more you win. Look at Chelsea. How much have they spent and they still haven't won the CL and that is Abramovich's prime target. So using your rules, the past 4 managers at Chelsea are all fools sinc they've had as much money as they want and still haven't delivered the club's primary target.

When Houllier was in charge our best 2 players were Carra and Gerrard, now 76 players and £228m later, our best 2 players are Gerrard and Carra.

That is a ludicrous comment but as it can't be measured objectively I would suggest that Reina and Torres have been our two best players this season.

The man doesnt have a clue, thats why hes bought nearly 10 players for EVERY position since hes been here, and Im sure in this window he will sign a few more.

10 players for each position?  I don't remember there being 10 goalkeepers! Aren't many of those purchases for the reserves? I'm not saying he has a high percentage of successful buying but maybe he's had to cut his cloth according to his budget and that involves more risk. At least he gets rid when he realises they're not going to cut it as opposed to Ferguson who can afford to absorb dodgy purchases such as Nani and Carrick.

And isn't it funny that the press haven't commented at all on the dreadful form of Keane since he returned to Spurs. Harry Redknapp has even dropped him a few times he was that bad. Seems his form only worked with Berbatov and don't get me started on that waste of money!

The difference between a good manager and Rafa was shown over the weekend.  Liverpool had another classic performance against Reading, and Rafa said after the match 'I was pleased with the character, Reading played well because they were on TV and I'm relieved to get another chance at Anfield.'  Meanwhile, United lost to Leeds, and fergie said 'That game was disgusting, I was going to use those players on Wednesday, but they will NOT play now, we werent good enough.'

So you judge the quality of the manager on how much he berates his team in public. Brilliant! What about Ferguson's judgement on picking that team in the first place? How about calling him a fool especially when he's sold so many good players after a fallout in the dressing room?