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Author Topic: Sticking Together  (Read 4344 times)

Offline Ed

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Sticking Together
« on: January 14, 2010, 03:51:18 PM »
There was a lot of talk about sticking together by the players as we lurched from one bad result to another this season. You expect that because we're Liverpool and that's our tradition. Paisley was a great believer in it:

"One of the things I keep reminding players is that when you're lost in a fog, you must stick together. Then you don't get lost. If there's a secret about Liverpool, that's it."

Well I just want to say that that includes the manager! This clip from The Wild Bunch (If you think of Rafa as the old man!) perfectly explains it and our season (It's worth watching!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jLp1OAvcss&feature=PlayList&p=E2C2ED333F01AB8D&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4

Irish_Mark

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Re: Sticking Together
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2010, 06:25:37 PM »
Great post, I agree 100%

10/10 best post I've seen :)

Irish_Mark

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Re: Sticking Together
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2010, 06:30:16 PM »
I've never heard so many Liverpool 'fans' demand a manager be sacked, I really thought we were above it... I really did. And the booing disgusts me. There's no excuse for it. Get behind the fooking men in red and less of the shed.


Offline Ageing Stick Insect

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Re: Sticking Together
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2010, 06:56:39 PM »
I've never heard so many Liverpool 'fans' demand a manager be sacked, I really thought we were above it... I really did. And the booing disgusts me. There's no excuse for it. Get behind the fooking men in red and less of the s***.

Mark, you clearly don't think Rafa is the reason for this season's malaise. Fair enough, we're all entitled to our opinion. But if not Rafa then who? Some of the players perhaps? If so, which ones?

I like Rafa and during his time at Anfield he's brought us memories which many of us will take to our graves but when so many players are underperforming for such a long time then I believe the buck stops with the manager.

The boardroom antics are forgotten by the players once they walk out of that dressing room and can't be used as an excuse. The manager isn't just responsible for buying players and picking a team. He's also a man-manager and it's that area where I think he is failing badly. To not celebrate any goals scored by your players is not natural. I can't think of any other manager who does that.

Think about your boss if you work. How would you feel if you never got any praise for your efforts. You'd get pretty piddled off I think if you'd had a good game and all he said was "You missed a couple of opportunities to score, you can improve even more if you try harder". It would annoy me and I think the main reason for our performances this season is his lack of encouragement to the players. That may not matter when they're on a roll as they were last season. They were probably all buzzing so what Rafa said just went in one ear and out the other. The results were all the encouragement they needed. But when you're down you need some encouragement and he simply can't do that side of things.

That's why I think he has to go very soon and before the end of the season so a replacement can bring in reinforcements and give the team a chance of finishing in the top 4 especially in the light of today's injury news to 3 key players.
Cheers,
Ray



Offline Gurdeep

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It's only when you see a mosquito landing on your testicles that you realize that there is always a way to solve a problem without using violence.!

Offline Gurdeep

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Re: Sticking Together
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2010, 08:48:04 AM »
Torres getting in on the action.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=725521&sec=england&cc=5739

Fernando Torres believes Liverpool need a "much, much more complete squad" and has told the club's owners they have to invest to rescue the team.

Having competed with Manchester United for the title last season, Liverpool are currently 12 points behind leaders Chelsea in seventh place and are now out of the Champions League, FA Cup and Carling Cup.

Rafael Benitez has faced a major backlash after Wednesday's FA Cup defeat to Reading, but Torres believes the manager has been restricted by the lack of transfer funds.

"It's frustrating," he said. "We finished second last season. This season should have been a turning point for us, a chance to do something great - Manchester United sold Carlos Tevez and Cristiano Ronaldo, while Chelsea didn't sign anyone - but it hasn't been.

"It's now the owners' turn. They have to sign players so that this does not happen again. If we want to compete with United and Chelsea we need a much, much more complete squad. We need more genuinely first-class players and we can't let our best players leave."

Securing Champions League qualification and winning the Europa League are the only realistic ambitions left for Liverpool this season now and Torres, who picked up an injury against Reading, admits they cannot afford to fail.

He told Four-Four-Two magazine: "We didn't want to win the Europa League at the start of the season but it's a reality now. Now we have to win it. Anything less than winning the tournament would be terrible.

"We need to improve, we need to take responsibility and we need to get into the top four and win something. We have virtually no chance of winning the title now. Now we need to make the best of this situation."

Reports on Thursday suggest Benitez is set to be given until the end of the season, but it has been widely suggested that the owners are already looking at other candidates for the position. Guus Hiddink has been tipped as a leading contender after Russia's failure to reach the World Cup.

Hiddink is still contracted to Russia but looks set to leave and has revealed he would welcome the chance to return to the Premier League. However, given the Dutchman's close ties to Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich, a switch to Anfield could be problematic.

"I have to speak to the federation president before making any decision on my future, but it is true that I would like to coach in England again," he said in the Daily Mail. "After all the support I've received from Roman Abramovich, I owe it to them to discuss anything with them first."

Benitez, meanwhile, knows the importance of Saturday's trip to Stoke in the Premier League but admits he faces a challenge to inspire the squad after recent disappointments.

"We have to start again," he said. "All I can do is start thinking about the next game. We can only carry on and be ready for the next game. All we can say is that we must focus on the next challenge, but I accept that it will be tough to raise spirits.

"But we cannot change the Reading result. We must move forward. We have to think only about the future."
It's only when you see a mosquito landing on your testicles that you realize that there is always a way to solve a problem without using violence.!

Offline Juan

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Re: Sticking Together
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2010, 03:28:53 PM »
I very much agree Ed. Benitez has my 100 % backing.

Some fans will call those who dont want Rafa sacked "the pro rafa brigade". Others just cant comprehend why fans are still willing to give their support.

For me there are a mixture of reasons why I want him to remain in charge. 2 champions league finals, an FA cup and runners up in the league all within 5 years is the first reason.

The level of finance at his disposal and off the pitch interference is the second.

It seems a manager is not afforded a bad run of things despite what he has achieved in the recent past. Stability is what this club needs now, not sacking the people who actually care.

We sure as hell dont have money, our owners have only a vested interest in making cash. People call for Mourihno. Its funny to see that Mourihno would only consider taking over at the club if the Americans were to sell up to somebody that can provide the cash.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=725688&sec=england&cc=5739&cc=5739

That article highlights exactly why Mourihnos not suited for this club.

Until Rafa is given the tools to compete and until all the other ownership factors along the way have been resolved, until the atmosphere to succeed runs through the club again only then would I question the managers position had our on the field situation not improved.

Otherwise its time to join the managerial merry go round at LFC because no other manager out there will last because they wont be able to compete with the Sheiks and Romans billions

BandWMisery

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Re: Sticking Together
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2010, 04:32:07 PM »
Now I shouldn't be here at all, I feel the pain for you guys, it's no longer even fun taking the Michael with sibling rivalry, the losses are no longer unexpected.

So I'm going to try to make some salient points if all you can do is reply with some nasty words move on ignore it.

Firstly I'm not going to get into whether you should or shouldn't as fans you decide...

But for me this game seemed to turn the tide, which I don't really get. Why? What was so different before this game and after?

For me the real issue comes down to this for sure the owners have influenced certain aspects, but for me it comes down to do you think Rafa can cut the cloth accordingly? As I doubt the owners will be going any where soon. Do you feel the changes in the youth setup will come to fruition? When comparably you lie 9th(16pts) half way this season after changes have been made, with 4th(44) last, 5th(43) before.

But going back to the cloth, what I find a little disturbing is the players coming out and saying we need investment in the squad. For sure it has filtered to the players but it shouldn't of. We can highlight other teams that aren't using this as an excuse for sure it makes the difference to challenging for the top but not fighting for 4th. To me this shouts lack of confidence in some players from other players, at this moment I'm not sure too many can hold their head high. Then combined with players talking about the loss of Alonso just drives it further home it just shouldn't be happening. Then combined with some rather strange post match interviews. Where I know for a fact my Brother would rather he just came out and said we were crap rather than giving the players something to hide behind.

Now the Alonso stuff to me this has affected a lot, to expect to be able to slot a player in was never going to be easy. Though for me I'm not sure you can replace him. So not to expect a learning/settling season is a little naive, but the one thing for this is perhaps Rafa's stength and weakness his stubbornness. For me Alonso slotted perfectly into that role. But I see big differences, you have GL and Aquilani that both to me look like they are way more forward looking players than sitting back(Alonso for me did a fair bit of defence work as well IMO). This has changed the dynamics can the formation still work or is it time to change?

Then finely as has been raised partially is the impact Gerrard is having. To me he seems harder on others at the moment than himself he is far from putting in a stellar performance him self. Seems he believes he is better than some around him, who/how should/could fix this attitude? Having seen a manager sacked for benching "The player" this I actually find the hardest to solve.

To sum it up you have several points...

1)Can Rafa cut the cloth accordingly?
2)Will the new youth setup really work?
3)Can his stubbornness be tolerated till he sees the changes needed(Linked to 1)
4)Can Rafa instil confidence back into the team?

As for midseason Pfft take us as an example if you want but it's an emphatic no. For sure I have an opinion of Rafa you can scrap it out from other posts I've made but whether he should stay or go is an opinion I have no right to make. Where as if you want to talk about my own club then it is an emphatic YES.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 04:37:29 PM by BandWMisery »

BandWMisery

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Re: Sticking Together
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2010, 04:43:09 PM »
Edit

One other thing is injuries and I think Tes has a good idea where I would go with this I for sure think I see smoke...

Offline Juan

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Re: Sticking Together
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2010, 05:58:10 PM »
BWM I still believe Rafa can cut it. I think his previous track record proves he can.

The tide has turned against Rafa because not only did they lose to lower league opposition the performance was just shocking. However in the era of skysports phone ins fans are never happy. Whether it be 15 defeats or 1 defeat you always have somebody calling for Rafas head. Obviously if we were to continue losing then the more justified they are to want the manager gone but at the moment i dont think we have reached that point.

Whether the new youth set up system will work time will only tell. That really can only be judged in the long term. One thing for sure though is that up to now for whatever reason the academy is failing at an alarming rate. But Rafa cant be blamed for that yet.

He does come across as a stubborn manager but in his defense there arent many managers out there these days who give the media what they want in terms of straight up honest answers. Whether the thinking behind it is to defend their own job, defend the players etc im not sure but generally if you hear a manager coming out after a game and admitting their team was crap or singling out individual players then you will find that manager isnt managing a top 4 team. Look at Fergie he refused to talk to the bbc for how many seasons now. Should Rafa just do the same. Also the media want to see a melt down right before their eyes and at times that's when he gets defensive.

I think hes proven before that he can pick a team up after a defeat. I would expect a performance from the team on Saturday. Not necessarily pretty football but 100 % effort coupled with passion. Some people say he has lost the dressing room. If that's the case he needs to weed out the players who have packed it in and ship them out, superstars or not. If players wont perform for Rafa then chances are they wont perform whoever would replace him. Im not sure many top managers out there see Liverpool as an attractive prospect at the moment, Maureen proved that with his comments so if players wont play for Rafa what are the hopes they will play for a so called lesser experienced manager.

The club is imploding for a culmination of reasons and Rafas failures this season are only one part of that.

BandWMisery

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Re: Sticking Together
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2010, 06:26:33 PM »
I agree with many things said there Juan..(Though you're probably aware of my own thoughts in regards to squad building IMO still unproven) Though I think a few have expected the corner to be turned after a couple of matches. I personally think it is a transition whilst he finds how to work the squad without Alonso. Still think the players need some introspective looking and should be told off. By excusing with lack of investment it seems to be undermining there own confidence, seems self defeatist to me.

Just one thing though for arguments sake lets say Gerrard is having more of a negative effect than a positive effect could he really get rid of? I actually think he would be gone quicker than the phone call from the first club interested.

As for media pfft not going to go away as for BBC he still doesn't that was about the Panorama programme. Having met him I can tell you there isn't enough room in 5 sqr miles for his ego so not really a comparison, even I have to admit RB is far more composed and gentlemanly.

Any way I agree stick by him, though not a Liverpool fan I have to admire "The Liverpool Way", though you are the only torch bearer of such composure we sure aren't a club with such composure. We'd of boo'ed a long time ago.

Any way hope you get back to finding your way its no fun when the losses are expected I get more mileage from the ones that are unexpected. ;)

The biggest problem you've got is many see the quickest fix as the manager. The others seem impossible in the short term. As no investment to replace squad members, and IMO your owners are hanging in for the Stadium when the profits will be greater still.

trapsflipflop

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Re: Sticking Together
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2010, 08:15:21 PM »
hello lads right my first post  ;)
imo we have to stick with rafa, yes its been a massive disapointment this season esp after coming so close last season but these things happen, did we expect too much??? i dont think so, i honstly thought it would be our league this year, but if we change it now a new manager has to come in and deal with this squad and the board and that will set us back a couple of seasons
so lets push for 4th and look foward to next season ( a thing i have been doing for years now) and hope we can shift some of the deadwood players and bring in some hungry new blood

Offline Juan

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Re: Sticking Together
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2010, 08:42:33 PM »
Welcome on board trapsflipflop, good to hear a fresh point of view.

Agreed i dont fancy the thoughts of a new manager starting from scratch, especially the way conditions are off the pitch.

I would be afraid if we did get someone new in Hicks and Gilette would make sure he was a yes man as opposed to a Rafaesqe character willing to fight his corner.

Offline Tes

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Re: Sticking Together
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2010, 11:33:54 PM »
Edit

One other thing is injuries and I think Tes has a good idea where I would go with this I for sure think I see smoke...

Mark 'a curse on both our clubs' Hulse.

Our season seems eerily similar to yours last season, with a lot of muscle and soft tissue injuries.
Don't make the same mistake twice, there's plenty of new ones to choose from.

Those who choose to preach would do well to take note of their own sermons.