Anfield Road - Liverpool FC Forum

Football and lesser sports => Liverpool FC, football, sport => Topic started by: Tes on August 23, 2017, 10:41:15 PM

Title: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on August 23, 2017, 10:41:15 PM
Now we're actually in it. I wasn't going to tempt fate beforehand.

The draw is at 5pm in Monaco, tomorrow.

Pot 1: Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Chelsea, Juventus, Benfica, Monaco, Spartak Moscow, Shakhtar Donetsk

Pot 2: Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, Paris Saint-Germain, Borussia Dortmund, Sevilla, Man City, Porto, Man United

Pot 3: Napoli, Tottenham, Basel, Olympiakos, Anderlecht, Liverpool, Roma, Besiktas

Pot 4: Celtic, CSKA Moscow, APOEL, Feyenoord, Sporting CP, Maribor, Qarabag, RB Leipzig

We'll get one team from pots 1, 2 & 4 - we can't be drawn against other English teams.

How about this for the 'revenge' group:

Juventus - trying it on when attempting to sign Can
Barcelona - Coutinho etc, etc
RB Leipzig - for not selling us Keita

An all German group:

Bayern
Dortmund
RB Leipzig

It would be rather ironic if we drew Dortmund and Celtic.

A not overly hard group, but with enough to keep us fully focused, and with ease of travel thrown in too, would be:

Benfica
Porto
Feyenoord

Ones to avoid because of travel and/or potential adverse weather are: Shakhtar Donetsk and Spartak Moscow from pot 1 and CSKA Moscow and FK Qarabag (Azerbaijan) from pot 4.
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on August 24, 2017, 05:57:44 PM
We've been drawn with Spartak Moscow, Sevilla and Maribor.

That's some traveling to do:

Moscow 2,018 miles

Seville 1,584 miles

Maribor (Slovenia) 1,183 miles
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Gurdeep on August 28, 2017, 08:48:23 PM
We've been drawn with Spartak Moscow, Sevilla and Maribor.

That's some traveling to do:

Moscow 2,018 miles

Seville 1,584 miles

Maribor (Slovenia) 1,183 miles

Pretty decent draw for us I reckon.
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on August 28, 2017, 10:29:26 PM
Pretty decent draw for us I reckon.

The Air Miles account agrees with you.

Footballing wise, we can't be complacent, but there were much tougher teams and groups we could have had.
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on September 04, 2017, 02:42:42 PM
Liverpool reveal Champions League group stage squad with Philippe Coutinho but no Nathaniel Clyne

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/liverpool-news-champions-league-squad-philippe-coutinho-nathaniel-clyne-danny-ings-a7928861.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/liverpool-news-champions-league-squad-philippe-coutinho-nathaniel-clyne-danny-ings-a7928861.html)

Liverpool squad for the Champions League group stages: Simon Mignolet, Loris Karius, Danny Ward, Dejan Lovren, Joe Gomez*, Ragnar Klavan, Alberto Moreno, Andy Robertson, Joel Matip, Jon Flanagan, Conor Masterson*, Trent Alexander-Arnold*, Georginio Wijnaldum, James Milner, Philippe Coutinho, Jordan Henderson, Marko Grujic, Adam Lallana, Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, Emre Can, Cameron Brannagan*, Ovie Ejaria*, Sheyi Ojo*, Roberto Firmino, Mohamed Salah, Daniel Sturridge, Sadio Mane, Dominic Solanke, Ryan Kent*, Rhian Brewster*, Ben Woodburn*, Harry Wilson*.

* B list players.

What is List B, then?
A player may be registered on List B if he is born on, or after, 1 January 1995 and has been eligible to play for the club concerned for any uninterrupted period of two years since his 15th birthday (players aged 16 may be registered if they have been registered with the club for the previous two years). Clubs are entitled to register an unlimited number of players on List B during the season, but the list must be submitted by no later than 24:00CET the day before a match.


I wonder if Clyne's omission is a sign of how long he's likely to be out and Klopp didn't want to take up a place by naming a player who wouldn't be fit for maybe 4 out of the 6 games at least.
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on September 05, 2017, 01:48:39 PM
Liverpool news: Philippe Coutinho to skip Champions League to force Barcelona transfer

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/850110/Liverpool-news-Philippe-Coutinho-Champions-League-Barcelona-transfer-gossip-rumours (http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/850110/Liverpool-news-Philippe-Coutinho-Champions-League-Barcelona-transfer-gossip-rumours)

More likely just more nonsense. If true, that's £150K a week we save on his wages.

Tell your mouthpiece agent who priced you out of a move by telling Barca the price was €200M, that it's £125M, one installment by the end of January, with 25 add-ons of £1M each time Coutinho appears on a pitch for Barca for 60 seconds or more. We're quite capable of stupid add-ons and ridiculous terms too, and there's a 50% sell-on clause, no matter what he's sold for.

Maybe we could have a £10M buy back clause that comes into affect in Summer 2019, 31st May - 31st August.   
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on September 05, 2017, 05:35:52 PM
Klopp explains Clyne's Champions League absence

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/274272-jurgen-klopp-explains-nathaniel-clyne-injury-situation (http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/274272-jurgen-klopp-explains-nathaniel-clyne-injury-situation)

Liverpool are set to continue to be without the services of Nathaniel Clyne for a significant period of time due to a back injury, Jürgen Klopp has today confirmed.

Not good news, but maybe it helps if Gomez is getting more games, then if he is needed at centre back then he'll be more in tune and up to speed. Flip side, is that whilst he may be needed at centre half he may also be needed at right back, depending on if Klopp thinks it's time to take Trent out of the team for a break.

It's going be a long time until January, and that's if we can even pick up a centre half then. Klopp's going to have a lot of juggling to do where Trent and Gomez is concerned, with an eye on what is required at centre half also.

I wonder whether we'll see Lloyd Jones come in for a League Cup match or two, depending on the opposition, if we get past Leicester.
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on September 12, 2017, 11:24:36 PM
So Karius starts instead of Mignolet against Sevilla.

Klopp seems determined to prove he hasn't made a mistake signing Karius.

Let's hope his kicking is better than it was against Arsenal, otherwise we could find ourselves in trouble.

Klopp won't say whether Coutinho starts, but it will be interesting because:

Barcelona Ask Philippe Coutinho to Refuse to Face Sevilla in Champions League

https://liverpooloffside.sbnation.com/liverpool-fc-transfer-news/2017/9/12/16294010/barcelona-tell-philippe-coutinho-refuse-play-champions-league-liverpool-sevilla (https://liverpooloffside.sbnation.com/liverpool-fc-transfer-news/2017/9/12/16294010/barcelona-tell-philippe-coutinho-refuse-play-champions-league-liverpool-sevilla)

Probably more BS from Don Balon, but I wouldn't put it past Barca. They think they're above everyone, and neither would I trust that pair of crooks Coutinho has as his agents.
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on September 13, 2017, 04:16:41 PM
Klopp won't say whether Coutinho starts, but it will be interesting because:

Barcelona Ask Philippe Coutinho to Refuse to Face Sevilla in Champions League

https://liverpooloffside.sbnation.com/liverpool-fc-transfer-news/2017/9/12/16294010/barcelona-tell-philippe-coutinho-refuse-play-champions-league-liverpool-sevilla (https://liverpooloffside.sbnation.com/liverpool-fc-transfer-news/2017/9/12/16294010/barcelona-tell-philippe-coutinho-refuse-play-champions-league-liverpool-sevilla)

Probably more BS from Don Balon, but I wouldn't put it past Barca. They think they're above everyone, and neither would I trust that pair of crooks Coutinho has as his agents.

What a surprise, on the eve of our first CL game, this appears:

Barcelona "ready to drop interest in Philippe Coutinho" and sign Jean Michael Seri from Nice in January

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/barcelona-drop-interest-philippe-coutinho-11163451 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/barcelona-drop-interest-philippe-coutinho-11163451)

Surely this can't be a reminder to Coutinho that if he plays for us in the CL this season, he can kiss goodbye to a January move, and possibly next Summer too, as they probably wouldn't need him if they get Seri.
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on September 13, 2017, 11:17:02 PM
Oh dear. Klopp has no defence. Literally.

We're three centre halves short. Minimum.

We throw away goals like the bride's mother does with confetti.

Good to see chances created. Frustrating to see them missed.
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: the dude abides on September 14, 2017, 08:03:42 AM
we need to score at least 3 or 4 goals to win any game.

what frustrates me most, is that Klopp has no idea about game management.  It's the same attack, attack, attack strategy, regardless of whether we are winning, losing, or if it;s the 5th minute, or the 95th minute.  Pure and utter madness.

At 2-1 down, away from home, our opponents had only 20 minutes left to find a goal.  Why do we make it so easy for them?  We should have closed up shop, and forced the Spanish to push forward - that is leaving gaps, that we can exploit with our pace on the break. 

Klopp's game management does not exist.   There is no future to this madness.
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on September 14, 2017, 11:18:36 AM
we need to score at least 3 or 4 goals to win any game.

what frustrates me most, is that Klopp has no idea about game management.  It's the same attack, attack, attack strategy, regardless of whether we are winning, losing, or if it;s the 5th minute, or the 95th minute.  Pure and utter madness.

At 2-1 down, away from home, our opponents had only 20 minutes left to find a goal.  Why do we make it so easy for them?  We should have closed up shop, and forced the Spanish to push forward - that is leaving gaps, that we can exploit with our pace on the break. 

Klopp's game management does not exist.   There is no future to this madness.

Exactly. By sitting back and remaining tight and compact, they would have no choice as time passed to get more desperate in their attacking leaving more gaps for us to exploit on the break, with controlled counter attacking.

When Lovren completely misses his clearance and the ball runs through to the Sevilla player, it should still have been harder for him by us having someone picking him, and being goal side. He could have pitched a tent and invited all his mates round to do the same, there was so much space.

How does the situation arise where an opponent is left unmarked, centrally, and in acres of space, right in front of our goal?

Klopp's seeming approach reminds me of Rodgers' approach in that game at Palace, where we threw a handsome lead away and ultimately the title by continuing to attack en masse, with no regard of leaving the back door wide open, even after they pulled it back to 3-2.

Every game is different, isn't it, so has to be managed on an individual basis depending on what is happening in that game.

Last night, three points was all that mattered. Sevilla are possibly the hardest team in the group, and so getting three points in our home game against them would have given us a great start over them, put us three points ahead, and therefore, we'd put our fate in our own hands from the start.
With Spartak Moscow being held by Maribor too, we would have put ourselves in a strong position from the off.

We now have to match or better Sevilla's and Spartak's results game by game, and possibly need to win in Sevilla (if the group goes to expected form).
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: the dude abides on September 14, 2017, 12:48:31 PM
How does the situation arise where an opponent is left unmarked, centrally, and in acres of space, right in front of our goal?

Klopp's seeming approach reminds me of Rodgers' approach in that game at Palace, where we threw a handsome lead away and ultimately the title by continuing to attack en masse, with no regard of leaving the back door wide open, even after they pulled it back to 3-2.

absolutely.

how can anyone have that amount of free space in front of our goal.  That type of scenario should only exist, at the death of an important game,  when we are desperately chasing the game, and get caught on the counter.

I don't blame our team.  I blame Klopp.  I would hate to be a defender, or midfielder, in this outfit.   You are onto a hiding to nothing.  A sensible manager would bring in a top defensive midfielder.  A sensible manager would have plans b, c and d, in his back pocket and cope with all continguencies.  He would know how to game manage.

Maybe Klopp's tactic worked in Germany.  Maybe it might work in the Champions League, or Europa Cup.  But I struggle to see how any team conceding this amount of soft goals, will ever win a Premiership.
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on September 15, 2017, 12:14:22 PM
absolutely.

how can anyone have that amount of free space in front of our goal.  That type of scenario should only exist, at the death of an important game,  when we are desperately chasing the game, and get caught on the counter.

I don't blame our team.  I blame Klopp.  I would hate to be a defender, or midfielder, in this outfit.   You are onto a hiding to nothing.  A sensible manager would bring in a top defensive midfielder.  A sensible manager would have plans b, c and d, in his back pocket and cope with all continguencies.  He would know how to game manage.

Maybe Klopp's tactic worked in Germany.  Maybe it might work in the Champions League, or Europa Cup.  But I struggle to see how any team conceding this amount of soft goals, will ever win a Premiership.

Whilst I'm not saying PL teams go route one and the German leagues are more tactical and technical etc, but there is definitely a readiness to use set pieces to score through in the PL, and the ball will get 'tossed in there', and I don't mean aimlessly, but with intention, having been worked on in training. You see more short corners and short free kicks if it's in a wide area in the continental leagues, than in the PL.
I guess it's down to the choice of keeping possession come what may or trying to 'force' an opening sometimes.
Short free kicks and corners being used to keep possession from the initial touch of the ball and 'work' an opening, whereas putting the corner or free kick into the box lowers the chance of keeping possession, but to try and counter the risk of giving possession away, free kicks and corners are worked on. It's just a different attitude or outlook.

All of which highlights the 'perceived flaw'. With corners and free kicks that are 'put in there', the attacking team tends to bring in central defenders to the penalty area, plus an overall greater number of players than in normal 'open' attacking situations, therefore leaving them potentially open to being hit on the break, if possession doesn't remain with the attacking team from the second touch after the initial corner or free kick has been taken.
I guess that's the risk that using the short corner and free kick to keep possession from the second touch onwards, tries to avoid. Fewer bodies forward, less chance of being hit on the counter if possession is lost, but an opening has to be created from the second touch onwards, rather than the free kick or corner being the potential 'assist' in itself.

So we get this gung ho attitude as opposed to a more cautious, build on top of sound defensive set-up and discipline, which is actually far more reckless than the 'less cautious' PL attitude of 'loading' for corners and free kicks, from a manager who comes from a league where the' less cautious' approach seems not to be the prevailing mindset.
I know Klopp can't prevent things like Lovren simply not being able to make connection with the easiest of potential clearances, but Moreno (or whoever is playing left back at the side of Lovren) should have it embedded in him that when covering his centre half, he is the right side and distance from the player he's supposed to have picked up, having identified that danger. It wasn't like there were two 'free men' to cover, so for our left back (I don't want to say it happened 'because' it was Moreno playing left back), the prevention was quite straight forward.

Klopp stated the solution was simply for the defence to 'step up' catching opponents offside, but even if done in perfect synchronisation by the back four, it still has to be spotted by a linesman or referee, so you're not totally reliant on your own actions to achieve a defensive result. Why didn't the defence do that? Is it not 'programmed' into them so they do it automatically? There's a big gap it seems between Klopp's idea of what should have happened, and what actually did or didn't happen.

So if it's down to players that aren't following instructions, who can't implement the training ground instructions in the 'heat of battle', then why weren't alternatives brought in last January or this Summer. January this year was Klopp's third window at the club.
He's had from October 2015 to May 2016, and August 2016 to May 2017, to see what's what and only Matip (for free) and Klaven for a mere £4.5M (and that wasn't a bargain price, just cheap because that's his 'value') have been brought in. I'm not just saying 'throwing money at it' will sort it, but changes were/are needed and you have to 'invest' in what is actually required.  We've had a full season with the addition of Matip and Klaven, and the defending from August 2016 to May 2017, was hardly the required improvement over the October 2015 to May 2016 period.

When you see a readiness to spend the amount of money on a Wijnaldum type and standard of player, then £35M on Oxlade-Chamberlain, yet no investment in the 'option' of a defensively orientated midfielder, and the mediocre signings of Klaven and Klarius, both for under £5M and our highest outlay on the defensive side of the team is the £8M-£10M spent on Robertson, you have to wonder about where the entire defensive side of the game actually sits within Klopp's thinking and philosophy. 
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: the dude abides on September 26, 2017, 10:10:46 PM
another frustrating night

russians ere hanging on - always second best.

but we need 50 chances to score a goal......and give cheap goals away at the other end, in lucky bags.

can far too slow and labourious for top level football.

sturridge, for a one trick pony, and a guy who always tries to shoot, he sure has a poor record re shots to goals ration.  Not good enough.

firminho still in poor form.

why does klopp rotate his keepers for such big games.  Madness.  A good keeper saves that free kick.


Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on September 28, 2017, 11:29:50 AM
why does klopp rotate his keepers for such big games.  Madness.  A good keeper saves that free kick.

The ball was even curving back in towards him, too. His reaction was in suspended animation time. It was a good height, not particular powerful, it should have been a bread and butter save.

Individually and collectively, the back five has so much chopping and changing, it adds further to what are already inherent problems.

Where Karius is concerned, it's almost like Klopp is trying to justify his signing, and continued presence at the club. It's possibly the one position where the goalkeeper should pick himself automatically.
If he's good enough, consistent enough, his performances make him no1 until those qualifiers change standard.

Neither keeper necessarily gains us points, as they're not good enough to do that, but failing that, you can't afford to have them costing points. Karius, cost us 2 points, as did the attackers.

Sturridge, like any goalscorer, needs a run of games, it's just the nature of the thing. That volleyed attempt get's 'steered' into the corner if he's 'got his eye in' during a run of games.

Firmino's and Salah's headers were arguably met too well. Without such a firm, central connection on the middle of the forehead, the angle changes and the ball doesn't go straight, and straight at the keeper.

We're making hard work of this. The 2 games against Maribor have to yield 6 points, and the home game against Spartak has to be a win. That's the bare minimum, and then we'll probably require a win in Sevilla to win the group, and avoid a group winner in the first knockout round.
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on October 17, 2017, 07:14:21 PM
Tonight's line-up:

Karius; Alexander-Arnold, Matip, Lovren, Moreno; Milner, Can, Wijnaldum; Salah, Firmino, Coutinho. Subs: Mignolet, Gomez, Klavan, Henderson, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Solanke, Sturridge.

I'd have given Oxlade-Chamberlain the nod ahead of Wijnaldum, seeing as it's away from L4, and Wijnaldum has been as much use as a chocolate fireguard away from home.

Why give Gomez a 'rest' and not Moreno? Surely Robertson deserves a chance, considering how he's performed when given time and his recent performances for Scotland. It might also keep Moreno's mind focused.
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on October 17, 2017, 11:35:30 PM
I know the opposition's not exactly the best, but a good win is a good win.

We've now given ourselves an advantage over Spartak, with the home tie still to come, enhanced our goal difference and we're a point ahead of Sevilla.

Two clean sheets in a row. Wow.

Good to see Oxlade-Chamberlain open his account and Firmino finding the back of the net finally.

Hopefully we can now kick start our season.
Title: Re: Champions League 2017/18
Post by: Tes on October 30, 2017, 04:20:58 PM
I'd like to see Oxlade-Chamberlain given a full game on Wednesday. Possibly keep Wijnaldum in seeing as it's a home game and see if he can add to his Huddersfield goal.

So then who out of Milner, Grujic, Hendo and Can (in order of preference). I'd like to see what Grujic could do especially as neither Hendo and especially Can have exactly put many trees in danger so far this season. Then again, the same can also be said of Wijnaldum.

Surely Robertson gets a full game if only to give our first choice ( :'() left back a rest, seeing as it looks like it's his spot to lose this season and Klopp needs to pace players with the manic December/January schedule not that far off.