November 20, 2017, 08:52:02 PM

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21
Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2017/18
« Last post by Edward224 on October 25, 2017, 07:42:02 PM »
Thing is, no matter what shape Klopp writes down on paper, ultimately in possession we will (or should) end up in something closely resembling 3-4-3 in our build up play.

The center backs split, Henderson drops and the full backs push up to give us width.

Off the ball, our shape is constantly changing dependant upon what we are doing and trying to achieve. Counter pressing the rule is that everyone can press except for the back 3.

I guess the question is whether off the ball it would be better for us to have 3 (or 5) players or 4. There is no simply answer really. It would force Klopp to narrow his tactical approach though.

His current system is a highly flexible system which changes continuously throughout the game to deal with the threats being faced. It will see us press passing lanes at times when using pressing traps - like how we saw with Pep's Barca. It will allow us to go man oriented when containing sides first and foremost, as we did against Sevilla. It allows us to use ball oriented pressing where we surround and suffocate the ball carrier where we have no discernible marking or team shape.

The problem with our system is it's complicated. Therefore it takes longer to learn and longer still to master. And of course while that learning process occurs, we look a shambles. It's why Chamberlain wont be featuring in our midfield until he understand things tactically enough to not be a liability in there. Stepping out at the wrong time, not knowing whether we are set up to press man, ball, space, passing lanes. Not knowing if he should track runners in a man oriented zonal system or whether he maintains shape.

Which means as it's failing now, we want to see it change. Rather than simply believing that this will take time (and maybe better players) to perfect. If the latter, do we change until we have those better players, which will mean moving back to it could be a longer learning process for them all. Or do we persevere and simply replace those who are not learning quick enough window to window.

I think as fans we only think and see short term. We have problems now. Therefore we want solutions now. That means seeing an actual tangible change of some description. Seeing that change = positive, the manager is pragmatic. Not seeing that change = stubborn, insane, how can persisting with this achieve different results? In reality maybe we just need to be patient. Because for us time is linear, we cannot see the destination until we arrive at it. I am sure there is a plan in place to get us from where we are now to where we want to be. Just because we cannot see it, feel it, touch it yet, doesn't make it less real. We just need to believe it's there.

If we set up more "conservatively" then we will likely face more attacks as well as have fewer ourselves. However it should be harder for sides to find spaces in our half to make good scoring chances from them. If you look at the games against Hoffenheim, Sevilla, Arsenal, and City - we did actually set up this way and look to counter. The problem becomes doing this against a side who won't push their shape into your half exposing themselves to counters and instead will happily only push their midfield line to half way then look to play for territory with aerial transitions. You then may still concede some scoring chances without actually getting much opportunity to have counter attacking moments yourself.

Klopp's system requires explosive players at full back who are strong in 1v1 encounters. We have seen this season how many goals have come from Gomez & TAA being beaten in 1-v-1 too easily (e.g. Albrighton for Leicester). Moreno has been excellent in 1-v-1's this season and his low center of gravity, pace and new found desire to stay on his feet is making him pretty solid for us there. Clyne is also excellent in 1-v-1 (except when Chamberlain destroyed him last year).

There is a reason at Dortmund Klopp would rotate out full backs and central/attacking midfielders when they hit 29 and have them gone entirely at 31 from the squad. Rangnick would start the replacement process even earlier in the mid 20's. A high pressing system requires a lot of pace, balance, agility and stamina. The first things to go with age.

Moreno/Robertson are going to be our left backs going forward, unless Moreno hugely regresses. Clyne/TAA are our right backs. Matip will get a chance with a reliable CB partner to find form. I suspect Karius will get a sustained chance to be #1 before Klopp writes him off. Like Matip, Gini will also get a chance in well balanced midfield. Coutinho, Mane, Salah, Firmino, Origi, Solanke, Chamberlain are a nice set of attacking options.

I think a starting #6 to replace Can, a starting CB to replace Lovren + Keita. Then the Karius we saw in the Bundesliga - or a new keeper if he cannot get to that level here when given the chance. Suspect that will be the next wave of changes we will see to the squad. Maybe Lemar (or other) for Coutinho if he leaves. Sturridge will be leave too I think.
22
Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2017/18
« Last post by Tes on October 25, 2017, 06:13:16 PM »
Wagner: Klopp’s Liverpool have problems scoring and defending

http://www.teamtalk.com/news/wagner-klopps-liverpool-have-problems-scoring-and-defending

 ;D  ;D


That's alright then. I thought we had serious problems. As you were, then.
23
Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: January Transfer Window 2018
« Last post by Tes on October 25, 2017, 05:21:21 PM »
Liverpool news: Jurgen Klopp must NOT be trusted to buy players in January - Steve Nicol

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/871032/Liverpool-news-Jurgen-Klopp-transfer-gossip

So Mr Nicol, who do you suggest? Michael Edwards? Barry Hunter? Dave Fallows? Aka the transfer committee, minus of course, Brendan and 'Harley' Ayre.

Herein lies the crux of the problem we've been talking about since Rodgers' second Summer.

The entire recruitment process, and by extension, whoever is therefore involved, is simply not fit for purpose. In fact our defence is more fit for it's supposed purpose.

Our recruitment has been poor by and large across the last two managers with the common thread being Edwards, Fallows and Hunter.

Dortmund's recruitment has been praised during the Klopp era, continued with Tuchul and has hardly been lambasted now Peter Bosz is at the helm. The common thread across all that time - Michael Zorc.
24
Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2017/18
« Last post by the dude abides on October 25, 2017, 12:04:48 PM »
you have to wonder what they (whichever pair are put in the firing line of playing centre half) are thinking. Sometimes they look shell shocked, or just plain disbelieving at what they're expected to deal with.

Lovren hesitated, as if unsure what to do, and let the ball go over his head for the first. So when that then proved to be the wrong action, he just did the opposite and rashly attacked the ball, missing it the next time.

They don't look sure of what to do.

Even a superb reader of the game like Hyypia, or a pure defender like Carragher or Terry would flounder in this team.

totally agree.

even two world class centrebacks, like Maldini and Nesta, would have their work cut out in this nutty setup.

your back four (or three) is supposed to be typically lined up across the 18 yard line, NOT the half way line.

it is madness re defending. 

It is also madness for our offence too.  We have such pacy forwards, so why the hell are we compacting the space at the front - allowing them nowhere to speed into?

Klopp's possession mantra is meaningless. 

Mid table clubs had him worked out early on. And worryingly, the evidence so far this season, suggests that top clubs in England now have him sussed out too.

i.e. let Liverpool have as much of the ball as they want.....and just hit them on the counter via throwing or dinking the ball over their defence.

Rope-a-dope.


25
Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2017/18
« Last post by Tes on October 24, 2017, 07:37:54 PM »
absolutely. 

with Klopp wanting our full-backs to be constantly supporting the attack it means crazy pressure on our two centrebacks, when the other side breaks.

being a Liverpool centreback, or keeper, must be one of the most thankless jobs in sport.

in my lifetime, I have never seen anything at Liverpool anywhere close to this defensive shambles.

Exactly. Just as we see how exposed and vulnerable the two centre halves are left, and with a goalkeeper behind them, who can also pull the sort of stupidity (for the first goal) and just plain dire technique (for the fourth goal) and therefore is just plumb unreliable, you have to wonder what they (whichever pair are put in the firing line of playing centre half) are thinking. Sometimes they look shell shocked, or just plain disbelieving at what they're expected to deal with. Lovren hesitated, as if unsure what to do, and let the ball go over his head for the first. So when that then proved to be the wrong action, he just did the opposite and rashly attacked the ball, missing it the next time.
They don't look sure of what to do. People who practice find they do things automatically because practice makes it come naturally. Practice develops understanding. Our centre halves don't look like people who have been drilled, who have practiced things time and again. Nothing looks like it comes naturally. Everything has to be worked out, and that thinking time, and lack of surety, keeps proving fatal.

Even a superb reader of the game like Hyypia, or a pure defender like Carragher or Terry would flounder in this team.
26
Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2017/18
« Last post by the dude abides on October 24, 2017, 07:26:12 PM »


Incoming Liverpool midfielder Naby Keita is one of the best players Ralf Rangnick has ever worked with....with the RB Leipzig sporting director admitting he always knew the Reds would win the battle to sign him.

“He's one of the best I've worked with in 20 years of professional football,” Rangnick, who has worked with the likes of Liverpool pair Sadio Mane and Roberto Firmino and Bayern Munich’s David Alaba, told Kicker.

“I’d also prefer, 10 times, that we'd kept him for another five years - but we are just not able to pay salaries in excess of €10m.”
27
Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2017/18
« Last post by the dude abides on October 24, 2017, 12:49:32 PM »
Whilst all three mentioned made errors, I have a certain amount of sympathy with whoever plays at centre back or in goal. They're left exposed constantly.

they are being asked to do more than is sensible, and are in a position where they know everything they attempt is so crucial.

absolutely. 

with Klopp wanting our full-backs to be constantly supporting the attack it means crazy pressure on our two centrebacks, when the other side breaks.

being a Liverpool centreback, or keeper, must be one of the most thankless jobs in sport.

in my lifetime, I have never seen anything at Liverpool anywhere close to this defensive shambles.
28
Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2017/18
« Last post by Tes on October 24, 2017, 12:37:33 PM »
And Lovren does not deserve to be hung out to dry....nor Matip, nor Mignolet.   

Exactly. If you freeze frame any part of any of the goals on Sunday, you can count numerous issues and errors.

There is a situation in each goal where there is an error by an individual that could be termed as 'pivotal', but if everything else was functioning properly, either we wouldn't have got as far as the error being able to happen, or the error wouldn't be pivotal, as the structure would have been there to sort it straight after.

Whilst all three mentioned made errors, I have a certain amount of sympathy with whoever plays at centre back or in goal. They're left exposed constantly. Their job made far harder than it could be. Any error is made more glaring and has a far greater effect on things.
It's got to affect their mindset, and ultimately their confidence. The errors were bad and shouldn't have happened, but they are being asked to do more than is sensible, and are in a position where they know everything they attempt is so crucial. That can make them act in a way they otherwise wouldn't if they felt protected, helped, that things were more in control.
29
Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2017/18
« Last post by Tes on October 24, 2017, 12:21:56 PM »
I refuse to believe that a genuine winner like Klopp would make a mistake like Wenger and choose loyalty to these players instead of brutal desire to improve upon them as they were given more than enough chances to show they can do the job we hoped they could do.

That's your opinion. Equally valuable as anyone else's, no matter how they may differ, but just an opinion.

Any manager, no matter his track record, can make mistakes. It's hardly beyond the realms of possibility that Klopp, like many others at the club, like the players on the pitch, has made mistakes, had errors of judgement, placed too much faith, or even hope, in players and outcomes.

It's no one person's fault. It's a collective failing, both off the pitch and on it.

Klopp is not entirely at fault, but he's hardly blameless too.
30
Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2017/18
« Last post by Tes on October 24, 2017, 12:12:28 PM »
Surely the penny has dropped and Klopp will have to reevaluate some of his assessments.

Klopp makes assessments, based on which Klopp makes decisions. Ergo, Klopp shares in the responsibility.

There's been more than enough mention of the likes of Edwards, Hunter and Fallows and the methods and model (if there is one) of recruitment, to make it clear that Klopp is not completely to blame, and change to the whole recruitment process is far more vital and pressing than any individual signing that may be required.

That can not be done without some sort of input from FSG, obviously, so we're aware, more than aware, of the culpability of FSG in the whole picture.

Looking at the evidence, it's hard to totally accept that Klopp indeed is in total control, and I mean he has the first and last say in everything to do with which positions need strengthening, the names of the targets required for said positions, how many, who leaves etc, etc.

Who's decision was it to spend at least £35M on Oxlade-Chamberlain, when we were woefully short of the required quality at centre back last season, and with Sakho being sold (again, who's decision was that) and Lucas being allowed to leave, doing nothing, spending nothing, would very obviously leave us in an even more precarious position.

There seems to be no willingness to spend money on the defence and defensive side of the team. Klopp has brought in 4 players on the defensive side of things, for a total spend, not even nett spend, of less than £20M.

£25M on Wijnaldum alone. More than on the defence in total.
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