Anfield Road - Liverpool FC Forum

Football and lesser sports => Liverpool FC, football, sport => Topic started by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 20, 2008, 06:51:07 PM

Title: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 20, 2008, 06:51:07 PM
I believe the deadline for H&G getting enough money for the new stadium build is quite close. Jim's website has no news about this. Does anyone know what the latest situation is?

I imagine in these difficult financial times H&G will struggle to find the funds. If that's the case then where does that leave the club? We've had so many false dawns with this stadium and further delays will being shame to this great club.

If H&G don't raise the money by a certain date what happens then? Do they get an extension or do they have to apply for planning permission again?

God, what a mess!  >:(
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: martin on August 20, 2008, 07:35:20 PM
I posted an article written by Tony Barrett from the Echo. He said:

But as important as meetings with David Moyes’ and Alex Ferguson’s men undoubtedly are, it is arguable the most important dates for Liverpool in the 2008/09 season have nothing at all to do with what is happening on the pitch.

The most significant of all is January 31, the deadline by which Tom Hicks and George Gillett must refinance the loans taken out in the £350m refinancing package they secured earlier this year. That’s in the highly unlikely event of the pair having put their massive differences behind them for the good of the club and come to a working arrangement by then.

The second comes in “late October/early November, the time by which Hicks vowed to see work begin on the construction of Liverpool’s new ground in Stanley Park, after the initial commitment to see “a spade in the ground” within 60 days of takeover was consigned to the dustbin of history.

Throw in the opening of the new transfer window on January 1 – a time when Rafa Benitez must attempt to prove to the board that the players he is pursuing provide the kind of value they are looking for – and Liverpool’s season is already set up to have the same level of political intrigue as the last.
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 20, 2008, 08:12:30 PM
Thanks Martin. Looks like they have a few months left to find the cash. Something tells me they ain't going to do it and come February all the dirty washing will be back in the public eye.  :(
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: PhilLFC on August 21, 2008, 08:12:55 PM
Well on RAWK someone who has been dealing with Fottball Finance had this to say...      Some on this board know what I do and so I have very close access to the finance market - in particular football finance. I have looked at the Liverpool numbers and projections in the past (not for G&H but other competing bidders at the time), and to be honest, I have no idea how we aim on servicing our current debt AND raising the money we need to raise for the new stadium.

With regards the current debt - RBS wouldn't have gambled on CL revenue being needed to pay the interest on their debt. They likely used a prudent midtable assumption and sized the debt accordingly (with the assumption that their debt would be refinanced by longer term debt based on revenue from the new stadium).

The problem is that with steel costs spiralling the stadium has literally tripled in cost. However the future expected revenue from the stadium will broadly be exactly the same as it was a year ago. So the debt size which can be raised from revenues from the new stadium will roughly be the same (technically less as the debt will be more expensive in the current market and so less can be raised). Whats going to fill the whole to pay for the new stadium? Has to be money, real equity from the owners....up to now they have put v v little of their own money in but if they want to build a new stadium they will have no choice.

In some ways - a bad performance this year and no UCL would yes mean Rafa would go...but would probably squeeze the owners out too as economically they would have no chance in raising funds for a new stadium without putting a lot of their own wealth into the club.


Some other info I was told (though this was bout 6 months ago) was that Gillett was trying to use Gerrard as a bit of a pawn against Rafa - i.e. trying to have a direct relationship with Gerrard to cause a divide in the dressing room between "Rafa's guys" (Alonso, Reina, Mascherano) and "Gerrard's guys" (Gerrard, Carragher etc). Apparently at one stage there was a serious issue and Gerrard was pi$$ed off - and lets just say Gillett didn't discourage the problem. At the time there were rumours in the press of unrest etc.

I think this has all been sorted now - especially given Alonso's apparent fall from the manager's grace, the signing of Keane and attempt to sign Barry (both friends of Stevie G) and Gerrard's generally much more positive comments in interviews.

Just wanted to illustrate though how dirty tactics had got and potentially could get again in all this political and boardroom drama.

Btw - the reason why Gillett is such a big proponent of Parry is that when Gillett initially went in to buy the club (which was without Hicks of course) one of the things he promised Moores was that Parry would remain CEO - something DIC refused to accept

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=224653.3840
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 21, 2008, 10:17:13 PM
Thanks for the quotes Phil. I'm not going to worry about the rumours of Gillett trying to split the team because there's no evidence that has affected performance and as quoted, Alonso and Rafa probably aren't the best of freinds currently.

The owners haven't put much if any of their own money into player investment this year. The money from the Premiership, CL and player sales has covered the cost of the 3 high profile players we've bought. No sign of that £20M Rafa was promised.

I don't see how G&H can possibly raise the money in the current economic climate and with the cost of steel having rocketed it makes it doubly-difficult.

If DIC make them a decent enough offer they can use that to invest in their US businesses which they are far more familiar with. Trying to turn an English football club into a 'franchise' fills me with horror!  :o

I would still have concerns about DIC. They know even less about running a footie club. That's where a good CE is vital and Rick Parry does not fit that bill! I just hope that if they did come in they wouldn't change Rafa because that would mean a new manager and another team build and that would mean no title for another 5 years!  >:(

Bloody 'ell! The days of David Moores and a stable invisible board seems like eons ago!  :(
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: skippy on August 22, 2008, 09:58:29 AM
DIC did make a decent offer. £40million profit for the owners but they turned it down.
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 22, 2008, 10:47:09 AM
DIC did make a decent offer. £40million profit for the owners but they turned it down.

That was when H&G weren't speaking to one another and still had a viable financial plan. Once they realise they cannot raise the money required they may be forced to accept an offer from DIC and it may not be as generous as the previous one.

This is an open question. If the deadline is reached and they can't raise the money what happens then?
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: PhilLFC on August 22, 2008, 04:10:22 PM
from what i have heard DIC have been in touch an offer was made but not exactly sure how much, but the Shiek and his son was involved and it involved Gillett....Jim might know more
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: PhilLFC on August 22, 2008, 04:14:33 PM
There is "NO" Money for the stadium, they cannot go forward, look at "Glorypark". this is thought as to why DIC came back...they are just watching the two owners run out of money and options
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 22, 2008, 05:09:45 PM
There is "NO" Money for the stadium, they cannot go forward, look at "Glorypark". this is thought as to why DIC came back...they are just watching the two owners run out of money and options

So there's absolutely no question of any further extension to this deadline of 31 Jan. I wouldn't put it past them to negotiate a further extension and that would presumably add more interest to the debt. Or will the bank run out of patience and say 'put up or get out'.

Jan 31 is a deadline of course. They may well come up with the money tomorrow - just like I may win the Lottery tomorrow. Yeh, right!  ::)

Where's Jim? The season's started and we've hardly heard a peek from him. ???
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Texas_Dawg on August 24, 2008, 02:24:06 AM
Jan 31 is a deadline of course. They may well come up with the money tomorrow - just like I may win the Lottery tomorrow. Yeh, right!  ::)

Ahhh, yes. Another season, another round of "Hicks has no money" rumors.

Some things never change (and never will I guess).   ;D
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Gurdeep on August 24, 2008, 09:27:21 AM
Ahhh, yes. Another season, another round of "Hicks has no money" rumors.

Some things never change (and never will I guess).   ;D

One thing is for sure Dawg.  If construction work does not begin on the stadium this year as promised by Team America, then that will lead to more speculation surrounding our owners finances and their ability to execute on the targets they had set themselves.
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 24, 2008, 09:44:30 AM
Ahhh, yes. Another season, another round of "Hicks has no money" rumors.

Some things never change (and never will I guess).   ;D

If Hicks had the money he would have announced it by now. That fact that he hasn't (so far) leads to a legitimate question. And you coming here with that comment just makes me think that you think your man in untouchable. Absolutely not!
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: PhilLFC on August 24, 2008, 10:06:12 AM
Ahhh, yes. Another season, another round of "Hicks has no money" rumors.

Some things never change (and never will I guess).   ;D
TD have you heard anything about DIC coming back with an offer a couple of weeks ago?? Do you think Hicks will get sole ownership this year??
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: martin on August 24, 2008, 12:44:30 PM
Ahhh, yes. Another season, another round of "Hicks has no money" rumors.

Some things never change (and never will I guess).   ;D

ahhh, Texas_Dawg. Long time no see! Welcome back mate.

The protracted debate is back and like you said, it never went away. The thing is TD it never will go away until it is put to bed and either seen through or it has fallen through. I'm sure you'll understand that it is quite natural for there to be doubts with what precedent we have seen. I for one remain open minded because I believe that it is entirely possible that money will be 'raised' to continue their end pursuit of making money out of Liverpool. The real question is at what cost in real terms?

I don't think it is a question of Hicks "having no money", really it has nothing to do with it because it isn't his own money he will be using anyway, rather can Hicks et al get the loans they need to see this thing through. I would suggest that in business terms LFC is a pretty attractive proposition in a market seemingly unaffected by the 'credit crunch' that is the phrase of the moment.

I am not an expert so it is impossible for me to make statements with much specificity or grounding but there are a few obvious pre-disposers to this whole issue. The key one being that there is only one motivator to owning Liverpool FC and that is to make money. No matter what spin anyone gives, in the cold light of day that is all that matters to our owners. Once again, the real question is at what cost, both in financial and non-financial terms will this be to LFC?

LFC supporters hope that in the end a mutually beneficial scenario exists where the owners make money and accordingly LFC also have increased revenue which, in real terms translates to increased spending int he transfer market - lets face it, together with stability and integrity that is all we care about. My real concern is that a situation develops where Hicks is faced with a choice between making money and harming LFC, or walking away having not made money and leaving LFC in a stable condition. I don't think it would take Hicks longer than the blink of an eye to make that decision...


 

Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Texas_Dawg on August 27, 2008, 10:34:57 PM
TD have you heard anything about DIC coming back with an offer a couple of weeks ago?? Do you think Hicks will get sole ownership this year??

I haven't heard that, Phil, but I also have quit bothering Tommy with the questions about all this (because the answer is always the same anyway and has been for months now).  I think it will be Hicks/Gillett for the foreseeable future though. 
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Texas_Dawg on August 27, 2008, 10:42:19 PM
My real concern is that a situation develops where Hicks is faced with a choice between making money and harming LFC, or walking away having not made money and leaving LFC in a stable condition. I don't think it would take Hicks longer than the blink of an eye to make that decision...

Well... as I've said from the first day I started posting here (or the older site I guess)... Hicks isn't primarily in this to make money.  His primary interest is to own a great club and win with it... because he enjoys sports, owning sports clubs/teams, and winning.  That's not to say finances are of no import... just that they are secondary (up until a point anyway... but it would take a pretty substantial decline in the value or cash flows of LFC for that point to arrive). 
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: skippy on August 27, 2008, 11:06:36 PM
Well... as I've said from the first day I started posting here (or the older site I guess)... Hicks isn't primarily in this to make money.  His primary interest is to own a great club and win with it... because he enjoys sports, owning sports clubs/teams, and winning.  That's not to say finances are of no import... just that they are secondary (up until a point anyway... but it would take a pretty substantial decline in the value or cash flows of LFC for that point to arrive). 

hicks has a very starnge way of showing he wants to win things. No transfer budget, having a manager that wants a player but not giving him the funds to buy that player, no stadia, lining up a replacement for the manager, lying to fans, falling out with a fellow owner. Wow thats a certain recipe for winning things kinda like the Corinthians, Rangers model.




Let me guess............its all gg's fault.
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Juan on August 28, 2008, 12:38:21 AM
hicks has a very starnge way of showing he wants to win things. No transfer budget, having a manager that wants a player but not giving him the funds to buy that player, no stadia, lining up a replacement for the manager, lying to fans, falling out with a fellow owner. Wow thats a certain recipe for winning things kinda like the Corinthians, Rangers model.

Let me guess............its all gg's fault.

Nicely put Skippy. To suggest that Hicks has bought Liverpool as a sporting interest first and a money making machine second is just a complete insult to the intelligence of every single Liverpool fan. Hicks and Gilette will never be welcome at liverpool, the sooner they are driven out the sooner we can start to forget the embarrassment and misery that their short lived legacy has caused. 
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: iskoppa on August 29, 2008, 12:09:01 AM
Well it looks our so called owners can not get the funds to start the ground work at Stanley Park!  Surprise, surprise NOT!!!!!  >:(
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Texas_Dawg on August 29, 2008, 07:38:56 PM
kinda like the Corinthians, Rangers model.

LOL.  Well I see you have the talking points down.

Funny... you seem to have left one off your apples and oranges comparison list though.   ::)
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Ourlad on August 29, 2008, 10:06:57 PM
Dawg your full of sh*t just like our to owners. No money to start the stadium followed up with another spin about how now we can just build a 73,000 seater stadium. January will be very interesting we'll just see what the banks have to say then.
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: martin on August 30, 2008, 12:50:41 AM
Well... as I've said from the first day I started posting here (or the older site I guess)... Hicks isn't primarily in this to make money.  His primary interest is to own a great club and win with it... because he enjoys sports, owning sports clubs/teams, and winning.  That's not to say finances are of no import... just that they are secondary (up until a point anyway... but it would take a pretty substantial decline in the value or cash flows of LFC for that point to arrive). 

LOL! C'mon Dawg, at least have the integrity to admit the truth. He's not in it primarily for the money? Bollocks.
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: the dude abides on August 30, 2008, 11:51:09 AM
I look at the positives - and this latest episode just is a further example of the deceit and spin used by the yanks (like they think the positive spin of 'we'll use the time productively to re-examine plans to increase the capacity to 73,000' is gonna wash with the fans)......and their failure to start the build is just one more nail in their demise as anfield owners.

it's all good news.
Title: Re: Deadline for stadium money nearing
Post by: Juan on August 30, 2008, 12:19:38 PM
Dude I would like to think there are some positives in all of this but reading this mornings daily post we really look to be facing a very uncertain future.

And if the Sheiks interest in the club is waning as suggested we could really be up sh*ts creek.

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2008/08/30/stanley-park-lease-fear-for-liverpool-fc-64375-21636849/