Anfield Road - Liverpool FC Forum

Football and lesser sports => Liverpool FC, football, sport => Topic started by: the dude abides on August 13, 2011, 03:38:26 PM

Title: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 13, 2011, 03:38:26 PM
Adam should be taking our penalties.

Bizarre Suarez penalty, and even more bizarre how the ref didn't send the Sunderland lad off.

Very encouraging start from Liverpool.  Despite so many new faces, the team have gelled well.  There are so many positive performances today so far.  Downing looks good.  Adam looks good.  Carroll looks reasonably fit.  Suarez is a little dynamo that makes things spark. Agger looks fit.  Lots of positives.

But until we get a second goal, there is always a danger.  The game is a tad open at times....and we do give Sunderland too much space at times.  We need to get tighter.

But based on the first 36 minutes, we SHOULD hammer this lot.  This should be a three or four nil job.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 13, 2011, 05:00:57 PM
I sorta expected this outcome.

This was like watching a toothless lion trying to maul a donkey.

If Fergie was in charge today, this would have been a 3 or 4 nil hammering of Sunderland.

If Fergie was going into that changing room now, after us managing to draw a game we should have won at a canter, he would be blistering the paint off the walls.

Success comes with hard work and closing down.  There were some lads today, who were not getting tight enough.

And FFS sort the penalty taker issue out.  If it's too hard to get the ball on target from 12 yards, then change your taker. 

I suppose the media will focus on why the Sunderland was not dismissed (for Suarez's penalty).  I am at a loss (Spanish commentary here) to figure out how the ref kept him on.  Then again, I thought the ref was poor all day.


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 13, 2011, 05:18:31 PM
If Kuyt's on the pitch it's his, otherwise agree Adam's got a good record.

Still, 37 games to go and the goal we conceded was a fantastic individual one. Sometimes it happens. It wasn't blatantly poor defending, which is encouraging.

Afterall, it's the curse of Fathead. We've never done well against his teams, no matter who the manager is/was.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on August 13, 2011, 05:37:15 PM
Disappointing yet predictable start from Liverpool. As per usual, it is enough for the opponents to fight to earn at least a point. True Richardson should've been sent off, true Carrol's goal should've stood, true Downing's effort deserved better and it remains a true the player to be fouled isn't to take the peno. As per usual we did enough to bury the game but didn't manage to (more of this to come I fear). Today I'm willing to let our "high profile" signings get away with the early day excuse.

In the end tho, I think Kenny should be the target of some criticism for his team selection. It was obvious early on Flanno was the weak link, yet he kept him on. The moment I realised Kuyt was omitted from the sheet I got a bad feeling. He's one of very few players that have the experience and skill to guid the team through a game like this. I also found it puzzling Lucas started and he was mediocre as per usual. In any case he did nowt, also as per usual, to take a step forward when the team needed leadership in the 2nd half.

I feel sorry for young Flanno but I really hope I don't see him in a red shirt any time soon (Kelly?). If Konchesky would've made those mistakes the riots in Hackney and Tottenham would've looked like a sunday park festival.

On a more positive note I was hugely impressed by Enrique's performance and Suarez and Carrols' first half performance.

It is worrying we couldn't find a way back into the game. Maybe we now can realise we're still a process in work and that 4th would be almost too much to ask for?

-------------------Reina------------------

Johnson-------Carra--Agger--Enrique-----------

Kuyt-----------Adam-Meireles/Aqua---Downing

-------------Carrol------------Suarez------------

Arsenal 3 - 1 Liverpool
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on August 13, 2011, 05:41:09 PM
Still, 37 games to go and the goal we conceded was a fantastic individual one. Sometimes it happens. It wasn't blatantly poor defending, which is encouraging.

Agree to disagree. Beg you to closely watch Flanno's acting after the cross' made. League 2 standard IMHO. A dreamgoal it was and true enough they happen and this time due to juniorlike defending. One ought to have a more critical perspective than that tho. How did we respond? Did we respond? Did our response merit a win? No, no and no, would be the correct answer to those three questions and that's kind of worrying for a title-challenging side, if you go by what the fans say that is. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on August 13, 2011, 05:51:10 PM
Still, 37 games to go and the goal we conceded was a fantastic individual one. Sometimes it happens. It wasn't blatantly poor defending, which is encouraging.

I disagree Tes. It was a well taken goal but Flanagans defending was appalling. Larson was left unmarked at the back. I dont like singling out a player so young, hes bound to make mistakes while developing into a decent player but today I felt he looked out of his depth.

Liverpool started brilliantly. On another day Sunderland would have been a man down but the ref bottled it for the sending off. Carrolls goal was perfectly good  which should have put us 2 up. Downing looked ferocious as did Adam in the first 30 but after that it all seemed to go wayward. Henderson didnt really get into the game and at this early stage Im worried that hes going to be pushed out wide when thats not his position.

Very disappointing start to the season same old story, by Monday evening we'll most likely be already 2 points behind on last seasons top 3. Saying that it is only the first game, we have alot of new players and now its up to Kenny to find a way to make this team tick as soon as he possibly can. Theres still a huge case for bringing in 2 top centre backs. For the first 30 Carragher and Agger looked untroubled but in the second half there were times when we looked ragged at the back.

Anyway footballs back and its onwards and hopefully upwards from here.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 13, 2011, 05:54:29 PM
anyone know officially why richardson was allowed to stay on the pitch?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on August 13, 2011, 06:06:59 PM
Dowd tried to say that the ball was moving away from goal hence it wasnt a definite goal scoring opportunity. The fact that Suarez was rounding the keeper and rolling the ball into an empty net doesnt seem to have mattered. Was furious with all of the decisions Brown got his way too. The games top brass try to push these respect the ref campaigns on clubs which of course is fine but its not okay when the games offiicials consistently make awful mistakes. The PL is meant to be the top league in the world but the officiating today was sunday league at best.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 13, 2011, 06:38:37 PM
totally agree, Juan.

it was sunday pub league officiating today.

and you could see it among our lads - who were getting increasingly furious during the second half.

if that penalty incident was not a definitive example of what this specific rule is all about, then I do not know what is.  You are clean through, about to pull the trigger, and the last defender takes you out. Red card.

but our crowd let the ref off far too light. He should have been booed and barracked the rest of the game.  He got off way way too light. 

Respect campaign, my bottom.  Respect in life, is earned.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 13, 2011, 06:39:50 PM
I disagree Tes. It was a well taken goal but Flanagans defending was appalling. Larson was left unmarked at the back.

Agreed Juan. What I was meaning was that it wasn't a blatantly poor piece of defending which gave them a goal on a plate (ie a free header or tap in from six yards out). If we're going to use young players they are going to need to be talked through the game by more senior partners and the senior players have to be more aware. After our pre-season defending nightmares, I'm trying to see positives ans look for silver linings, however dull the lustre on the silver is.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 13, 2011, 06:47:14 PM
...............and that's kind of worrying for a title-challenging side, if you go by what the fans say that is.

I'm not sure that many fans 'really' think we're a title challenging team. Bravado and over optimism is never far from the surface but we're still attempting to increase the quality of the squad to that approaching the teams ahead of us and with adding a lot of players in one go, consistancy will always take time to develop. Hope, rather than expectation should be the word this season.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on August 13, 2011, 06:49:48 PM
Ayala gone to Norwich. Hopefully that frees up some more cash. I see Poulsen has also admitted defeat and is looking to leave. Not a moment too soon, never been good enough, not his fault but just a fact.

The positives I see from today Tes, Dude, Martin is that A) its glaringly obvious in front of Henry and his wife today that we need at least 1 centre back so maybe he will leave his cheque book open and B) after watching the first 20-30 minutes we are going to destroy some of the lesser teams this year. The attacking threat possible is mouthwatering and I would worry for some of the lesser teams if we start to click because I think we will blow them away.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 13, 2011, 07:01:20 PM
after watching the first 20-30 minutes we are going to destroy some of the lesser teams this year. The attacking threat possible is mouthwatering and I would worry for some of the lesser teams if we start to click because I think we will blow them away.

agreed, Juan.

and that assault on the lesser teams should have started this afternoon.

after 30 minutes, I could see sunderland were there for a walloping.

we need some tiger in our blood (doing my charlie sheen impression now).

man utd's lads have tiger in their blood and the scent of prey in their nostrils.

we need to step up to the plate.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on August 13, 2011, 07:03:17 PM
Hope, rather than expectation should be the word this season.

Agreed Tes. And I think its still fair to say we can still hope for some sort of title challenge.

One thing I think the players can expect this season is not to have the liuxury of excuses. Now they do have a genuine excuse today  of being unfamiliar with each other, plus they have all of the hype and expectation that goes along with the start of a new season. But what they can no longer do is look at other teams and say they have spent more money than us. The investment excuse cant be used. If we are not good enough at times this year we are not good enough but we are mixing amongst the elite clubs now in terms of spending. Granted it could take a season or two to see the real results of our spending emerge but as a club we cant hide behind the spending excuse.

Im glad today is over, I look forward to the transfer window closing and getting whatever deals left to be done finalised. Im also looking forward to the reintroduction of Stevie. I dont envy Kennys job of trying to find the best side. Maybe he will go back to some of the players like Maxi and Meireles who flourished last year. One things for sure we are a million miles from where we were this time last year.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on August 13, 2011, 07:06:38 PM
agreed, Juan.

and that assault on the lesser teams should have started this afternoon.

after 30 minutes, I could see sunderland were there for a walloping.

we need some tiger in our blood (doing my charlie sheen impression now).

man utd's lads have tiger in their blood and the scent of prey in their nostrils.

we need to step up to the plate.

Things could be worse, we could support Arsenal! How frustrated must their fans be.

Still laughing at your suggestion in another post that it was Ed who caused the riots.   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on August 13, 2011, 07:11:11 PM
News gets better. Gervihno sent off, will surely miss Liverpool game.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 13, 2011, 07:20:22 PM
Still laughing at your suggestion in another post that it was Ed who caused the riots.   ;D ;D ;D

I reckon Ed's thread was the subtext for the masses to begin the revolution.

Millions waited with bated breath for Ed to give the nod.   
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on August 13, 2011, 07:40:03 PM
LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hamKl-su8PE&ob=av2e (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hamKl-su8PE&ob=av2e)
 :P
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 13, 2011, 10:20:37 PM
One things for sure we are a million miles from where we were this time last year.

In so many ways. Whatever happens this season, I'm still just enjoying that fact.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 13, 2011, 10:22:42 PM
LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hamKl-su8PE&ob=av2e (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hamKl-su8PE&ob=av2e)
 :P

As they've sort of faded from the scene maybe they should be re-named The Lost Prophets.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 13, 2011, 10:28:04 PM
Ayala gone to Norwich. Hopefully that frees up some more cash.

As they're a Premier League team, hopefully we've had the foresight to insert a 'buy back' clause, in case he flourishes in this league, and at the very least, a sell-on clause. We've been on the wrong end of sell-on clauses enough times, so it's about time we started benefitting from them, and with the increased revenue from a stadium as far away as ever, we need to tap every source of income possible.

Apparently Villa had a sell on clause when they sold Cahill, which is one of the reasons Bolton are holding out for so much. It's the reason Pennant cost over the odds as Arsenal had one with Brum, and Roma get 5% (I think it's 5% from memory) if/when Aquilani is sold.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 13, 2011, 10:38:50 PM
If Kuyt's on the pitch it's his, otherwise agree Adam's got a good record.

exactly.

Kuyt takes today's penalty, and we are sitting here tonight with three points.

been saving it for my end of term report, but Kenny needs to keep Suarez's ego in check.  He's only one cog in the team.



Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 13, 2011, 10:42:16 PM
As they've sort of faded from the scene maybe they should be re-named The Lost Prophets.

or the Lost Plasmas
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on August 14, 2011, 02:46:47 AM
Looks like we're not out of pre-season yet!

Maybe needed a game or two more....

Surprised Suarez started....not so much in terms of todays game but
unless he's looked after and used wisely, I can't really see him running
about at the end of April. I think Kuyt would have been a better option.

The other strange one, imo, was Flanaghan ahead of Kelly (tbh, the right side
was a bit of a mess, in particular for the goal.....but how the hell Sunderland
got the cross in with 3 of our lads out there is also a bit of a mystery!).

Whether or not to buy a back-up striker before the end of the window is
an interesting problem too i.e. who the hell would we get on the cheap with
a good bit of experience?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on August 14, 2011, 11:36:33 AM
Ok just seen the highlights...
surprised to see henderson..but he played well for half the game...
suarez played well too...despite the pen..
ref was appalling..as usual...you can really see that same judgement at old trafford....pathetic...carroll's goal was a certain goal...
downing looks like a welcome addition as does enrique and adam...

as for their goal...it was a good one...but he wouldn't have got a look in if he'd been marked..that will come to flannaghan in time and with extra experience.....
we played the ball round nicely at times...and considering we had meireles, kelly and kuyt on the bench all well and good...where's maxi btw?
nice to see such a strong squad..a cb would still be nice though...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on August 14, 2011, 03:29:49 PM
Chelsea are getting desperate. They have now restorted to needing ray wilkins giving torres man of the match in an attempt to boost his confidence. He was sharper for chelsea today but no motm performance.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 14, 2011, 05:42:00 PM
Re 'Flannagan's mistake': Over the years listening to ex pros talk about defending in the back four (whichever position they played) they are taught to move across or forward as a unit. So like yesterday, when Carra got dragged across more to the left of the goal as Agger was across with Enrique, Flannagan will be instructed to move to the left also, essentially covering the position Carra would have been in.
Essentially the back four move as though they are each connected by an equal length of rope around their waste.
Obviously, that has it's flaws, like yesterday, when Flannagan 'in reality should have' moved to the right to get just in front of and goal side of Larrsen. Experience will teach him when to do what's being coached and when to do 'what's required', if they're not one and the same thing.     
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 20, 2011, 06:50:25 PM
Arsenal 0  Liverpool 2

end to end stuff.  Arsenal had no final product.  Whatever Wenger has been putting in Ars.ehaven's soup, the lad is an entirely different entity to what he bought.

carroll goes on to further prove my initial thoughts.....way way over priced.  On the ground, technically poor to average.  Carroll reminds me of a Duncan Ferguson lite.   Is Kenny's grand master plan all about pumping balls into the box?  Maybe Carra has a future in the side after all. 

As always Kuyt is da man.  He (like I have said a hundred times) would always be my first name on the team-sheet (along with Reina's).  I am also a massive fan of Moreless.  If we had played our best lads in the first game, we'd have 6 points tonight.

And Maxi is another superb player....great technically.  He needs to start getting games. 

Good victory today in London.  It's always hard to go there and win.

Well played lads. 

Poor Arsene though.  From what I saw today, and at newcastle, (not to mention last season), I think he's in his final season at Arsenal. 


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on August 20, 2011, 09:13:25 PM
Has to be said...an excellent result...11 years since we last won there in the league is no mean feat...
sure the arsenal were on the ropes but how many times in the last decade have we not finished teams off?
I was glad kelly got the nod and with enrique on the other side things are looking decidedly promising...
using suarez sparingly is another good sign as i for one want him fit as a fiddle all season with no signs of burn out...
agreed with dude that maxi needs a run out...even as a sub...otherwise he'll be wanting to nip off in the transfer window...looks like aquilani is off for 2 quid or so...i concur with tes over the bad bizness there as we should hold out for a kings ransom and yet we're likely to get a pauper's shilling...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 20, 2011, 09:36:12 PM

carroll goes on to further prove my initial thoughts.....way way over priced.  On the ground, technically poor to average.  Carroll reminds me of a Duncan Ferguson lite.   Is Kenny's grand master plan all about pumping balls into the box?  Maybe Carra has a future in the side after all. 

And Maxi is another superb player....great technically.  He needs to start getting games. 

Whenever we have the more 'technical' players on the pitch, the decision to sign Carroll (or anyone of his ilk) seems increasingly baffling.
The alleged £40M + Sturridge deal would have been the better option to take, imho. Then again, I've hated the target man setup since the beginning of the eighties. Like hipster flairs, it should have remained in the 70s. We have Don Howe to thank for that, which makes the Arsenal fans 'hoofball' chant all the more ironic (or make an equally apt word from 'more ironic') .
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 21, 2011, 08:51:18 PM
agreed with dude that maxi needs a run out...even as a sub...otherwise he'll be wanting to nip off in the transfer window...looks like aquilani is off for 2 quid or so...i concur with tes over the bad bizness there as we should hold out for a kings ransom and yet we're likely to get a pauper's shilling...

yes, i also agree with Tes.  We are making some very bad moves financially in the market.  Why do we pay over the odds for lads who are injured - aquilini and carroll.  Madness.

yes, Maxi needs to be getting games.  He is up there with the best in our team, in my book, re technical ability.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 21, 2011, 08:58:12 PM
Whenever we have the more 'technical' players on the pitch, the decision to sign Carroll (or anyone of his ilk) seems increasingly baffling.
The alleged £40M + Sturridge deal would have been the better option to take, imho. Then again, I've hated the target man setup since the beginning of the eighties. Like hipster flairs, it should have remained in the 70s. We have Don Howe to thank for that, which makes the Arsenal fans 'hoofball' chant all the more ironic (or make an equally apt word from 'more ironic') .

yes, sturridge sounds like a better deal.

personally, i would have kept the Chelsea money (for torres) and waited til the summer.  Was the money burning a hole in our pocket.  Did we have to bring in another striker immediately, purely for political reasons (to keep the fans at bay (after losing Torres).

like you Tes, I agree that the days of hoofing it up to a big centre forward are long gone.  They went out with Toshack and Keegan.  But I suspect that is what Kenny is trying to build...a modern Toshack/Keegan thing - with Carroll and Suarez. 

Sure, the likes of a Carroll (or previously a Crouch) always offers an alternative option in a team.  But this style of play should never be or bread and butter.

My fear is that Kenny will keep playing Carroll mainly because of his price tag.  Instead, the big lad needs to be an option, that often starts on the bench.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on August 21, 2011, 10:25:02 PM
My fear is that Kenny will keep playing Carroll mainly because of his price tag.  Instead, the big lad needs to be an option, that often starts on the bench.

Valid point.  I still shake my head in utter disbelief that we paid £35M for Carroll.  Even more so now with Citeh having bought Aguero for only a few million more.  I hope he comes good but I just don't see him being a prolific goal scorer.  He has ariel ability and presence up front no doubt, but his speed is not existant imho.  I just cringe whenever I see him try to sprint......

As for the game against Arsenal, I think we looked much more fluid when Kenny brought on Suarez and Meireless.  The passing was quicker, sharper and we seemed to cause more problems to Arsenals defence with our movement. 

Henderson!  Early days of course but watched him in both games and I can't see what the fuss was about.  £20M.....Nah I don't think so, more like a £8M player.  Again, time will tell if he steps up his game.   
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on August 22, 2011, 12:52:26 AM
Valid point.  I still shake my head in utter disbelief that we paid £35M for Carroll.  Even more so now with Citeh having bought Aguero for only a few million more.  I hope he comes good but I just don't see him being a prolific goal scorer.  He has ariel ability and presence up front no doubt, but his speed is not existant imho.  I just cringe whenever I see him try to sprint......

As for the game against Arsenal, I think we looked much more fluid when Kenny brought on Suarez and Meireless.  The passing was quicker, sharper and we seemed to cause more problems to Arsenals defence with our movement. 

Henderson!  Early days of course but watched him in both games and I can't see what the fuss was about.  £20M.....Nah I don't think so, more like a £8M player.  Again, time will tell if he steps up his game.   

Hmmm....Haven't viewed the Arsenal game yet.....

Anyway some topical points up for discussion!

First, I think the price we paid for Carroll is not a factor, 'cos essentially we got Suarez & Carroll for
the price of Torres and if we paid 49 million for Suarez & 1 for Carroll, I don't see wht difference it makes as
 together they represent that windows dealings and who knows how things work out short and long term.

Tbh, I've yet to reach an opinion on Carroll and feel, particularly because of the injury, that it's too early to properly assess how he's likely to progress given his relative youth. My hope is that when he finds his rhythm, he'll make a sizable contribution to our goal scoring be it off the ball (occupying two defenders), flick-ons, hold ups and plain old goals. There was a definite reason he was brought into the side so I'm happy to wait and see how he settles in

Tes mentioned a few posts back somewhere that Henderson may be a Lucas type in the sense that he'll
need a few seasons to establish a role and identity at a big club?

As long as the lads have the right attitude at the moment I'm not too bothered.....
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on August 22, 2011, 04:57:57 PM
Agreed on Carroll Ed.

In reality it wasnt us who overpaid for Carroll it was Chelsea. We sold Torres to Chelsea on the condition that we would have 15 million left over from the sale of Torres and purchase of Carroll. So the more Carroll was costing us the more Torres was costing Chelsea. Thats the only reason I think we were willing to pay Carrolls inflated value and really it was a clever move by Liverpool. As we also said before the combination of getting Carroll and Suarez in return for Torres is a masterstroke on our part. We by far got the better deal so I think its wrong to question the Carroll deal as a single 35 million transaction.

As for the player himself I had my doubts early on in his Liverpool career, late last season. The performance against Man City eased those doubts but since then I havent seen enough quality from him yet. That said I still think he can be top drawer. Sometimes its horses for courses and the PL is definitely the league Carroll was born to play in. If he can ignite his Liverpool career we could be looking at a regular Liverpool and England striker of the next decade. When the Agueros and Tevez's are complaining about the cold Manchester winters at least we know Andy will be happy as a pig in muck. And having that settled happy team could be the key with trying to compete with Manchester and Chelseas billions. I say give the lad the season and judge him then.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 22, 2011, 05:50:47 PM
I still shake my head in utter disbelief that we paid £35M for Carroll.  Even more so now with Citeh having bought Aguero for only a few million more.  I hope he comes good but I just don't see him being a prolific goal scorer.  He has ariel ability and presence up front no doubt, but his speed is not existant imho.  I just cringe whenever I see him try to sprint......

It was deemed by KK and Damian that we needed a replacement striker after Torres left. It was Chelsea's money. I don't think we would have paid that at any other time.

Speed isn't everything. If it was then why isn't Torres banging them in? You need a style of playing that suits the players. I'm sure that Carroll's 'weaknesses' can be improved to make him a more effective player. It's certainly not money wasted.

If everyone had known Aguero would be such an instant hit then more clubs would have gone for him. Same with Suarez and Hernandes. Sometimes players just click and no-one could see it happening so well.

Would anyone here have expected Enrique to get MoTM in his second game? Not me!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on August 22, 2011, 10:12:12 PM
I guess time will tell what kind of player Carroll will end up as.  For me right now, not a £35M player.  But hope I'm proved wrong.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 23, 2011, 12:28:52 AM
Although Carroll's and Aguero's fees are similar, their wages are vastly different, so I doubt we could have ever considered Aguero as a serious option.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on August 23, 2011, 01:02:21 PM
Finally checked out the Arsenal game! (was moving house  :))

Must admit, I was very happy with that....3 points and a clean sheet, Nice!

Granted, Gunners having some issues at the moment, but that's their problem
and if Wenger provides a bit of Leadership and doesn't crack under the pressure,
they'll be there and there abouts at the end of the season....

Wasn't at all happy with that young Frimpong's tackle, potential leg breaker,
shows the character of Lucas that he didn't shirk the challenge.....Whinger is
completely full of shed dismissing it as the enthusiasm of youth, it was completely
reckless and given what's happened to some of his players in the past, he shouldn't
be condoning it, imo.

I think there has already been a big improvement from Sunderland and hope that
we keep up that over the next couple of games 'til the rhythm is there across the
team.

It's amazing that both Kelly & Enrique can Block Crosses!!!!! One of the things that has
been bugging me for years and why I find it difficult to accept Glen Johnson as a defender
(though I appreciate his dynamism going forward!). At Liverpool, We Block Crosses!

I'd also argue that Stevie G could be the solution to the Carroll, Henderson debate that
Gurdeep & Dude mentioned a few posts back.

1.) He could potentially link up very well with Carroll as a supplier, but also feeding off knock-ons
and capitalising on any defensive mayhem.

2.) In order for him to do a whole season this year, I think a good 60 minutes is the best we can hope for
with Stevie and if he makes way for Henderson from the bench, then I think we get the best of both worlds
as the young lad settles in.

To be fair to Henderson, he Deserves time to settle in, but there are definitely encouraging
signs there, I thought he was on the ball more in the Arsenal game. My opinion is that he
gives us a lot of Energy in a vital area of the pitch, can cover the ground rapidly and lead break-outs with
Lucas covering? He needs to get his Tackling right though and Constantly Pressure and Harry the opposition
when they have the ball in their half. That's the priority for him now, imo.

Anyway, positive signs, but I'm not forgetting about a commanding Centre Back (How difficult can it be,
look at Vermaelen!) and a back-up Striker.......
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 23, 2011, 04:01:28 PM
not often we disagree.  But I have to disagree with a couple of you re Carroll.
 
Just because Chelsea gave us 50 million for Torres, doesn't mean that it was Chelsea's 35 (some say 36) million that bought Carroll.  It was then OUR money, to do with as we wanted.  The money didn't need to be spent in January.  We could have waited.  And we could have got a helluva lot more value for our money.  imho
 
If you buy a lad who is not technically good enough on the ground, then even he only cost one pound, it is a pound wasted.  I hope my opinions change.  But from what I have seen to date of the big lad on the ground, I have to say, WTF.
 
What concerns me is top (make that world class) technical players being kept on the bench (Moreless and Maxi). And what concerns me even more, were the persistent rumours during the summer that Liverpool were trying to offload both lads.  Crazy.  Absolutely crazy.
 
And Henderson may come good.  I have seen enough to be encouraged.  But he should be on the bench, and slowly being adopted into the team. 
 
If we had started with more senior players in that first game, we would be sitting on top of the league today....with a healthy goal difference.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on August 23, 2011, 05:02:13 PM
Just because Chelsea gave us 50 million for Torres, doesn't mean that it was Chelsea's 35 (some say 36) million that bought Carroll.  It was then OUR money, to do with as we wanted.  The money didn't need to be spent in January.  We could have waited.  And we could have got a helluva lot more value for our money.  imho

Precisely  :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 23, 2011, 06:56:25 PM
not often we disagree.  But I have to disagree with a couple of you re Carroll.

If by disagree you mean you don't think we should have bought him then consider this. We had 2 years of the owners taking the money from player sales and giving little or none back to Rafa. Imagine if the new owners in their first transfer window had sanctioned the sale of Torres but had not made money available for a replacement. There would have been all sort of accusations that they were no different to H&G. If Kenny had come out and said there was no value in the market would we really have believed him?

So they decided that as a statement of intent they would make some of that fee available for a replacement. It doesn't really matter whether we thought a replacement was required or not. Kenny did and that's what mattered.

So looking at the available players with only a MATTER OF HOURS before the window closed a silly amount of money had to be paid to Newcastle for Carroll. Yes, clearly he's not worth £35M but that's not his fault. We had to pay that amount in order to compensate Newcastle.

I have no doubt he will improve with time. Gerrard may provide that missing link. Have he and Carroll featured in any game? I don't think they have. Kenny has acknowledged Carroll has not hit the level expected and I'm sure they will be doing all they can to address that in the weeks ahead.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 23, 2011, 07:13:50 PM
So looking at the available players with only a MATTER OF HOURS before the window closed a silly amount of money had to be paid to Newcastle for Carroll.

why?


Yes, clearly he's not worth £35M but that's not his fault. We had to pay that amount in order to compensate Newcastle.

 ???

run that past me again.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 23, 2011, 07:22:59 PM
Dude,

Why? Because we wouldn't have got him for less. IIRC £25M or thereabouts was offered but it was rejected. Hence why it ended up at £35M.

If Newcastle were going to lose him then we were always going to have to pay way over the odds and if you look at it from Newcastle's point they could argue that if they were relegated that money would compensate them for the loss of income. That's my take on it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

Chelsea did the same for Torres. We paid £23M for a 24 year-old; they paid £50M for a 27 year-old. Was he worth it? Obviously not but they wanted him just as we wanted Carroll.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 23, 2011, 07:29:30 PM
ASI, 35/36 million pounds is a LOT of money.  We were not obligated to spend the money immediately.

And especially not on a lad who was injured.

Was the money burning a hole in our pocket.  It sure looks like it. 

We bought in haste, we can now repent at leisure.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 23, 2011, 08:04:38 PM
Dude, I'm not saying I agree with the purchase. I'm just trying to explain why I think they bought him.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on August 23, 2011, 08:18:44 PM
We bought in haste, we can now repent at leisure.

Dude who is repenting? A handful of fans that havent given Carroll 5 minutes to show what hes capable of?

We are two games into the season and you are already writing a player off who is still relitively new to the club. You often talk about how the game has evolved for the worse and how fans these days want instant success. You havent given Caroll any time at all. Had his goal against sunderland stood as it should have he would be two games in and off the mark. I can accept having concerns that a new player may not be worth what was paid but I dont accept condemning a player without at least giving him the benefit of at least one full season.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 23, 2011, 08:34:53 PM
Well said Juan. Carroll can't have played any more than 10 games for us yet.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on August 23, 2011, 09:01:02 PM
Tbh, I probably agree with most of what Dude is saying, Yes there was no need to rush out and spend the dough and with the benefit of hindsight, one could easily argue that, Hell, if we wanted a young, English, big Lummock of a forward we could have gotten Conor Wickham for £8 million....

But at the same time, I'm with the lads when they say he hasn't played enough (or with the different options that we now have in attack) to be able to make a judgement one way or the other....besides, he caused City big problems last season and we're only 2 games in.....

As long as his attitude is ok and he's working for the team, I'm happy enough at the moment.....

Fergie has no problem sidelining Berbatov and playing a teenager and substiting him with a £7 or £8 million pound striker...Torres has hardly being prolific since we sold him (maybe it was a brave move to lose him)...it's a funny old game
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 24, 2011, 01:05:17 AM
Dude, I'm not saying I agree with the purchase. I'm just trying to explain why I think they bought him.

oh, I know, ASI.   :D

and I'm merely saying that that 35/36 million was obviously burning a hole in our pocket.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 24, 2011, 01:22:05 AM
Dude who is repenting? A handful of fans that havent given Carroll 5 minutes to show what hes capable of?

We are two games into the season and you are already writing a player off who is still relitively new to the club. You often talk about how the game has evolved for the worse and how fans these days want instant success. You havent given Caroll any time at all.

Juan, it's easy to spot a player's technical ability very quickly.

In the air, the lad is great.  Hey, Kevin Keegan said Carroll was amongst the top three headers of a ball that he'd *ever* seen in football.  I am not sure I would go that far.  But Kevin knows a lot more than me, and has been around the lad a lot more....so his opinion holds considerable weight.

On the ground, technically speaking, I am bitterly disappointed. 

Hey maybe, 15 to 18 million might have been a fair bet.  But the reality is that the lad is the most costliest British footballer of all time.  Indeed, he is the eighth most costly footballer ever to have played the game.

For that type of money, I want someone that is unmarkable.  I want someone who has technical ability that is second to none.  I want a Bergkamp.  I want someone with a decent turn of speed, or a significantly unique characteristic.

You don't have doubts that we have spent our money badly?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on August 24, 2011, 11:30:08 AM
Hey maybe, 15 to 18 million might have been a fair bet. 
Imo, Big clubs don't get hung up on individual decisions there's a bigger picture for
clubs like United, Chelsea, Man City and us.

In any given window if a manager snaps up a kid for £1 million who turns out to be worth
£50 million and buys a £30 million guy who's rubbish.....what difference does it make, it's
not Tescos where you can bring the product back, say you're not happy and get your money
back. Transfers are an unpredictable business, some work, some don't. Should we just do
nothing and wait 10 years until all outcomes are clear and then buy a time machine for £100 million?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 24, 2011, 12:42:09 PM
Imo, Big clubs don't get hung up on individual decisions there's a bigger picture for
clubs like United, Chelsea, Man City and us.

In any given window if a manager snaps up a kid for £1 million who turns out to be worth
£50 million and buys a £30 million guy who's rubbish.....what difference does it make

just over a year ago, we were 350 million pounds in debt. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on August 24, 2011, 01:06:25 PM
Dude ive already admitted that I do have my doubts about carroll but for me nows not the time to judge. Some of your favoured players like lucas ad kuyt would proably not be at the club now were they judged so quickly.

I can accept your points, i just think you dont think youve given carroll enough time to find his feet. Should torres have been sold by chelsea on the back of his 18 game barren spell. Or mario gomez for munich. He was being offloaded by bayern after a huge transfer fee but hes finally found his feet.

He may not prove to be technically gifted but then again he may score 15 or 20 league goals and surely that would go along way to repaying the transfer fee if we finish in the top 4.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on August 24, 2011, 01:36:38 PM
just over a year ago, we were 350 million pounds in debt. 

But we're not now! We got rid of 2 players Babel & Torres, who weren't performing
for us, and brought in 2 players Carroll & Suarez & broke even on the deal.

Maybe Suarez would have been a flop like babel (Both from Ajax), it's difficult to know.
Carroll, imo, is as yet unproven....Anyway, I'm not getting hung up about it, I'm pleased
that we acted decisively in the transfer market...This clip, sums it up for me Shanks on
Busby and signing players "Courage, Never Afraid to Dabble"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmqbKBl22CA#t=1m39s
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on August 24, 2011, 08:36:59 PM
Not sure how many of you are currently watching the game but apart from Suarez's bullet like shot we've been pretty poor.  No disrespect to Exeter but we should be out of sight.....seriously!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 24, 2011, 10:30:38 PM
Not sure how many of you are currently watching the game but apart from Suarez's bullet like shot we've been pretty poor.  No disrespect to Exeter but we should be out of sight.....seriously!

I watched it Gurdeep. We did enough to win which is all we were ever going to do. Suarez looked sharp and so did Henderson bar the embarassing dive for a pen. Skrtel is rusty hence the penalty but he'll get up to speed. Carroll's goal will help his confidence. Yes, he's a big lad and not the fastest around but he's good in the air and has a good shot. I'll take that.

These games are potential banana skins. I'm pleased we got through without embarassment although the problem with Raul took the shine off the game.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on August 25, 2011, 11:40:33 AM
Not sure how many of you are currently watching the game but apart from Suarez's bullet like shot we've been pretty poor.  No disrespect to Exeter but we should be out of sight.....seriously!

Didnt get to see the game, just caught the goals.

In the end it doesnt look like its being a bad night apart from Meireles injury. I really hope that puts an end to any hope of Meireles going. Earlier in the summer I would have accepted Kennys reasoning for selling Raul but I think he could be more of an important player than KD thinks. He adds an important element of creativty and fluidity.

Definitely think more positives than negatives taken from the game Skrtel, Wilson 90 minutes although Skrtels tackle for the penalty was poor. Carroll gets more match fitness takes his goal well. From the clips I saw Suarez looked like he ran the show. Wrap him up in cotton wool, he looks like being central to any success we will have this year. Now that Fabregas and Sanchez have signed for Barca I hope they dont start looking at Suarez as next years replacement for Villa. Otherwise the tapping up should start when the transfer window closes.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on August 25, 2011, 01:21:50 PM
Didnt get to see the game, just caught the goals.

I hope they dont start looking at Suarez as next years replacement for Villa.
http://www.fileserve.com/file/SA76VcY/First_Half_-_CC_-_Exeter_v._Liverpool_-_24-08-11.avi (http://www.fileserve.com/file/SA76VcY/First_Half_-_CC_-_Exeter_v._Liverpool_-_24-08-11.avi)
http://www.fileserve.com/file/bAku7XU/Second_Half_-_CC_-_Exeter_v._Liverpool_-_24-08-11.avi (http://www.fileserve.com/file/bAku7XU/Second_Half_-_CC_-_Exeter_v._Liverpool_-_24-08-11.avi)
Cough, cough...LOL  :)

Yeah, I think it'll depend on how we do this season (Champion league place, trophies etc.)
and what sort of Quality we aim to bring in next Summer, plus a wee contract re-negotiation
perhaps  ::)

His agent is Guardiola's brother, I think  :'(

Disaster that we have to use him at such an early stage in the Carling Cup (Ngog?? Strange,
maybe he's on the move...). But these are the times we live in and the trophy cabinet needs
some love imo.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on August 25, 2011, 01:48:28 PM
Cheers for the link Ed.

Agreed re Suarez, its a pity we had to use him so early but going forward if we do bring in another striker he might be used more sparingly.

Glad to see that we had a strong enough side out too. Your right in the sense that whatever we win it is time to start winning trophies again even if it starts as the Carling Cup. I think another thing our strong side shows is that our squad is alot stronger than last year. We could possibly put out two decent teams now, a mix of youth and experience in both. And no matter what peoples opinion of Gerrard is having him back will further strengthen the team again. Looking at centre mid we could play so many pairings and still look strong. What I'd love to see this year is Johnson getting a chance in front of Kelly down the right. Even if its in the Carling Cup. Its an option Im not sure why Kenny hasnt tried yet. Otherwise Kelly starts every day of the week for me over Johnson at right back.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on August 25, 2011, 02:21:42 PM
I watched it Gurdeep. We did enough to win which is all we were ever going to do. Suarez looked sharp and so did Henderson bar the embarassing dive for a pen. Skrtel is rusty hence the penalty but he'll get up to speed. Carroll's goal will help his confidence. Yes, he's a big lad and not the fastest around but he's good in the air and has a good shot. I'll take that.

These games are potential banana skins. I'm pleased we got through without embarassment although the problem with Raul took the shine off the game.

Very true ASI.  Unfortunately I could only watch the first half.  Guess Kenny must have sorted them out at half time  :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on August 25, 2011, 02:30:55 PM
Cheers for the link Ed.
No bother!

Yeah, Rafa, never had the resources to build depth into the squad, imo. He was
there and there abouts building a competitive first eleven with a top class Spine,
just couldn't fill it out with the one or two positions (left winger in particular!!).

Once any sort of injuries kicked in though we were in fire-fighting mode and to be
fair to him I think he coped well with what he had....actually, bit surprised that he
doesn't have a gig at the moment, though he's probably waiting for an interesting
project with Champions league (Arsenal or PSG?).

To start with, I think it's great that there's now proper competition (Johnson & Kelly)
and cover (Flanaghan) at right back. It'll be interesting to see how Kenny tinkers with that
position. There IS a definite difference between Kelly & Johnson's style and experience but it
would take a while to put it into words... I think it'll be maybe horses for courses depending on
the opposition and how they're doing in training any particular week (form and fitness) and we'll
see what happens in the Big Games?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 25, 2011, 02:32:08 PM
Kelly starts every day of the week for me over Johnson at right back.

absolutely, Juan.  Kelly every time.

PS - thanks for the links, Ed.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on August 25, 2011, 04:07:32 PM
PS - thanks for the links, Ed.
You're Welcome! :)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 25, 2011, 11:15:25 PM
What I'd love to see this year is Johnson getting a chance in front of Kelly down the right. Even if its in the Carling Cup. Otherwise Kelly starts every day of the week for me over Johnson at right back.

Totally agree with everything, Juan.

Having Johnson there (if it works) gives us a completely different option to what Dirk offers. Not saying better or worse, but definately different.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on August 27, 2011, 06:26:29 PM
If you've been watching the Bolton game the first 25 mins is the best we've played since the Fulham game last season. Wonderful flowing football and a great finish by Henderson. We could and should have scored 3.

Just a pity Kelly has gone off with what looks like a hamstring injury. I hope the lack of a second goal doesn't come back to haunt us.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on August 27, 2011, 06:34:29 PM
If you've been watching the Bolton game the first 25 mins is the best we've played since the Fulham game last season. Wonderful flowing football and a great finish by Henderson. We could and should have scored 3.

Just a pity Kelly has gone off with what looks like a hamstring injury. I hope the lack of a second goal doesn't come back to haunt us.

Agreed ASI we should be out of sight by now. Need to start the second half like we started the first. Second goal is crucial.

Re Kelly I said it in a post recently I fear for his long term future at the club. He apparently has been plaugued with injuries for years. If it wasnt for that the right back spot is his. He does what Johnson cant - defend!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 27, 2011, 07:36:05 PM
awesome stuff.

we look awesome when we pass and move.......if we play technical football, we can beat anyone.

if we pay huff-ball, then we bring ourselves down to the level of also-rans.

kenny must have been listening....since he started with carroll on the bench.

been meaning to post it for the last 10 days, but Downing has impressed me immensely, since game one.  It's like he was born a Liverpool footballer.  I like everything about the lad.

adams, henderson, enrique......all looking good.

I would say to enrique to deliver a better final ball.  His great runs are often spoilt with a poor final ball.  The lad knocks the ball into space.  He should instead be knocking the ball into feet or runs.  I saw Kuyt getting immensely frustrated.    We had a lad like that on the periphery of my team.....bluddy friggen frustrating. 

disappointing from carra, for that last minute giveaway. 

overall, great stuff. 

gonna be some beers here tonight...and red wine too.





Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 27, 2011, 08:07:21 PM
Carroll is the new Gerrard. Discuss.  :D









*Just had to try out my new can opener.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on August 27, 2011, 09:12:46 PM
Carroll is the new Gerrard. Discuss.  :D

Sharrupp yer mouth  ;D ;D ;D

But seriously, WOW, what a fantastic TEAM performance today.  Henderson started to show glimpes of why we paid £20M.  Some good crosses from the right and a good finish for his goal.  Actually, it's a pity that Downing did not score in the first half off of that wonderful cross off of the outside of King Luis right boot.  Everyone played there part today and it ws very close for MoM (Lucas or Suarez- take your pick).  Another positive I felt was seeing skrtl playing right back.  Did a decent job out there when asked and scored a bullet like header.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 27, 2011, 09:15:02 PM
Sharrupp yer mouth  ;D ;D ;D

 :D :D :D I'll get our Coate.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 27, 2011, 09:33:35 PM
Carroll is the new Gerrard. Discuss.  :D

*Just had to try out my new can opener.

 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on August 28, 2011, 01:50:45 PM
Think it's fair, no disrespect intended, to say Bolton were destroyed...

Team's definitely gelling better as the players get to know each others
strengths and playing style. Still expect it to be a few more games before
regular patterns of play are established but obviously the signs are very
positive.

Got some tricky away fixtures coming up, so it's important to keep this early
momentum and the good work that's clearly being done on the training pitch.

An example of that, imo, was Skrtel's goal! Christ, when I think of the player
under Hodgson, devoid of any sort of confidence and him celebrating a bullet
header from Adam's corner yesterday...What a difference!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 28, 2011, 05:16:11 PM
An example of that, imo, was Skrtel's goal! Christ, when I think of the player
under Hodgson, devoid of any sort of confidence and him celebrating a bullet
header from Adam's corner yesterday...What a difference!

great lad.

but I am starting to think he is a bit of a russian/eastern european type baddie.

looks like an extra from a james bond movie.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 28, 2011, 08:35:55 PM
Confidence is key to everything we're seeing. Both Henderson and Adam scoring with their 'other foot' shows the confidence they're both playing with. The players are playing with a freedom we've not seen for a long time, though it's not ill disciplined or 'gung ho'. A sort of structured freedom, if there is such a thing and I've not just made it up.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on August 28, 2011, 09:27:44 PM
great lad.

but I am starting to think he is a bit of a russian/eastern european type baddie.

looks like an extra from a james bond movie.
Dunno, what's changed...is it the competition for places? Better coaching on
the training field? Someone, who can actually take corners (Adam, Gerrard)?
or as Tes is mentioning, CONFIDENCE being channeled into the players?

Anyway, imo, if he gets an opportunity to be in the first 11, there's no reason
why Skrtel shouldn't be a big threat in the box for set-pieces (been saying this
for ages!) and bag 5 or 6 goals a season... More power to him, he does a really
good celebration when he scores (tbh, didn't think he had that passion in him!  :) )
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on August 30, 2011, 07:40:41 PM
Dunno, what's changed...is it the competition for places? Better coaching on
the training field? Someone, who can actually take corners (Adam, Gerrard)?
or as Tes is mentioning, CONFIDENCE being channeled into the players?

Anyway, imo, if he gets an opportunity to be in the first 11, there's no reason
why Skrtel shouldn't be a big threat in the box for set-pieces (been saying this
for ages!) and bag 5 or 6 goals a season... More power to him, he does a really
good celebration when he scores (tbh, didn't think he had that passion in him!  :) )

Steve Clarke? Maybe that's what's changed.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on August 31, 2011, 11:34:38 PM
he was always a good lad.  I always liked him.

in the last season or two, I felt his confidence took a bit of a knock. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 10, 2011, 03:27:16 PM
Stoke v Liverpool
Sept 10, 2011

total pressure by us these first 20 minutes.  We look like the real deal.  We look like a genuine title chasing team.

but then a nothing chance for Stoke, results in our weak chink getting on the wrong side of the ball....and Stoke get a penalty and score.  Carra fecked up v Bolton and he has done the same again today.  Lucky to stay on the pitch.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 10, 2011, 03:28:40 PM
this is gonna be a good test of our character.

men or mice.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 10, 2011, 03:45:13 PM
but then a nothing chance for Stoke, results in our weak chink getting on the wrong side of the ball....and Stoke get a penalty and score.  Carra fecked up v Bolton and he has done the same again today.  Lucky to stay on the pitch.

..............and still.................. ::)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 10, 2011, 03:58:40 PM
Stoke v Liverpool
Sept 10, 2011

total pressure by us these first 20 minutes.  We look like the real deal.  We look like a genuine title chasing team.

but then a nothing chance for Stoke, results in our weak chink getting on the wrong side of the ball....and Stoke get a penalty and score.  Carra fecked up v Bolton and he has done the same again today.  Lucky to stay on the pitch.


I think you're being hard on Carragher. According to pundits over here it was a nothing challenge and a soft penalty.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 10, 2011, 04:03:32 PM
I think you're being hard on Carragher. According to pundits over here it was a nothing challenge and a soft penalty.

asi, he got caught on the wrong side of the Stoke player and in trying to retrieve the situation, he put his arm around his waist, to try and hold him back.  It is the type of agricultural last gasp challenge that Carra often does and often gets away with.  The ref got it right.  Liverpool players did not complaint much about it.

it was a penalty.   I was just hoping the ref did not produce a card - for it would have to have been a red.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 10, 2011, 04:10:44 PM
Dude,

You have the advantage that you saw it. However, it's still being described here as 'controversial'.

Unless Jamie raises his game I fear he will soon be overlooked.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 10, 2011, 04:29:10 PM
I agree, ASI.

Heck, I was saying it again as recently as yesterday in here - that offensely I love our team.......but my worries were on our defence, specifically one weak chink, namely carra.

the common thread, is that Carra (and we can argue about the reasons) gets on the wrong side of the ball.

it's nothing new.  Heck, I said he was finished three years ago.  And my view on that has not changed.

Luckily it did not cost us against Bolton.  Today (unless we can retrieve this game late on) it will cost us.

We won't be chasing any league titles if Carra is a regular starter.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 10, 2011, 04:30:12 PM
City winning, Spurs winning, Arsenal winning, Everton winning, Chelsea winning. Liverpool losing. I am seriously piXXed off!!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 10, 2011, 04:44:59 PM
I know, ASI.

Very frustrating (if predictable).

Man Utd come back and win games like this....even at the death.

We have far more resources to call upon (than Stoke), but much of our response is un-coordinated, not quite headless chicken stuff, but close at times.

the depressing thing is, is that when a team like Stoke take the lead against Liverpool, you immediately get the feeling that we are fecked.  Whereas with United, any team that dares score against them only angers them (and they fire back). 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 10, 2011, 04:49:15 PM
That's the annoying thing dude. Stoke have had one chance on target. We've had 11. I really hate Stoke. Suarez penalty appeal refused. Grrgghhhh.

Manure will win later even if they don't play De Gay.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 10, 2011, 05:06:17 PM
agreed, ASI.

two points thrown away against Sunderland; three more points thrown away today against Stoke.

we did have our chances - poor finishing from henderson (a triple shot), bad miss from suarez, poor decision making at times by people. 

no complaints, we had millionaire resources, just did not make proper use of them.


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 10, 2011, 05:20:42 PM
Gutted to see three completely legitimate and an iron cast sending of turned downed by another poor ref (poorest refs in Europe, the English?). But with so much possession, so much more quality we should be able to score at leastone. Stoke rode their luck and will lose next game regardless of who they play.

Downing and Henders hugely overrated. Adam had his poorest game thus far. Kuijt one of our better players and Suarez of course. We need more resilience, arrogance and defiance to win games like this. It's unbeliveable really they won.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Edward224 on September 10, 2011, 05:26:20 PM
this was not the life sapping, soul destroying, blunt, impotent, car-crash performance of the last few seasons at the Brittania, this was a dominant, effort-full show of growing strength that just went that way on the day, in the freaky logic of the game of football, they got something from being on the back foot all the way.

Signs of life and progress from our Reds full blast today, do not be downhearted, these Redmen are going to be viscious and hungry at WHL after this, so just get a few bevvies in, get it out of the system, no fundamental cause for alarm, be positive, this was a freak of nature result. A victory at Spurs will demolish this and springboard us again, heads up Reds.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 10, 2011, 05:34:53 PM
Dude, I  suspect a lot of it was down to tiredness from midweek games although it didn't seem to affect City or Chelsea.

Next weekend may be different with CL and Europa games midweek whereas we can have a rest.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 10, 2011, 07:24:47 PM
Stoke are our new Birmingham City. We always seem to have to have a nemesis.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 10, 2011, 07:45:28 PM
Dude, I  suspect a lot of it was down to tiredness from midweek games although it didn't seem to affect City or Chelsea.

Next weekend may be different with CL and Europa games midweek whereas we can have a rest.

many of stoke's lads will have been on international duty too, ASI.

no, we had plenty of possession, good domination of the game, plenty of good chances (tho not as many clear cut chances as our dominant level of possession should have produced).

maybe Stoke are our new nemesis, like Tes says.....but sadly we seem to have too many nemesises (plural?) in the premiership.

yes, we are a new side - with lots of new players yet to properly bed-in.  And that takes time.

but I still have the doubts that I have always had.....i.e.  a weak chink in our defence (Carra was done three years ago).......and Kenny is fine on a summer's day, when things start/progress well.  But when it comes to analysing an opposition pre-game, or especially when making changes during a game to rectify bad situations, kenny is all at sea.

we needed a clear cool head, like Moreless, to be brought on today.....but some bright spark sold him the other week.  Instead we had to bring on Carroll. 

another couple of results like this, and the title will be out of our reach for yet another year.



Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 10, 2011, 08:01:40 PM
Stoke are our new Birmingham City. We always seem to have to have a nemesis.

It was never Brummies, it was always that fat fucktard Steve Bruce. It doesn't matter what team he manage we drop points be it Brummies, Wigan or Sunderland.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 10, 2011, 08:32:34 PM
It was never Brummies, it was always that fat fucktard Steve Bruce. It doesn't matter what team he manage we drop points be it Brummies, Wigan or Sunderland.

Agree that Fathead was the ultimate annoyance, but our results against Brum hardly improved when McLeish took over.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 10, 2011, 08:36:57 PM
another couple of results like this, and the title will be out of our reach for yet another year.

But we were never in it, dude. Too many new players, too many structural problems to solve after Rafa's mismanagement during his last 2 seasons. Yes we were a tad unlucky, yes the ref did his best to deny us what was right, but we need to score from the open chances we had. I read somewhere our possession rate throughout the game was 73 %. If this was a one-off I can live with it but too often during the past decade or so I've seen games like this. All of a sudden next weekend's game at WHL seems to be somewhat seasondefining.


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on September 10, 2011, 08:47:53 PM
Rough justice today.

Soft penalty but it was a penalty none the less. I thought Carragher was unlucky not to get an initial foul in his favour because Walters barged into him. It doesnt excuse Carragher putting his arms around him though, and doing that gives the referee the option of calling for a penalty.

I think its far too early to say we have wasted money on players. We are only four games in, the team looks likes its gelling very well but we just dont seem to be getting the rub of the green that our performances have deserved. I know the saying goes you make your own luck, weve tried hard to do that, were the far better team today but bad decision making on our own players part and bad refereeing has cost us.

I also dont understand people criticising Stokes style of play. They are fourth in the league, have become a very hard team to beat and have a few very good players in their squad. I think what Tony Pulis has done is commendable and not many teams will go to the Britannia and get an easy game.

Positives ; the way the team played, their style, attitude and attacking intent, Adams corners

Negatives ; Charlie Adams insistance on trying to find the killer pass every time (needs to realise hes not aways expected to split defences), Hendersons poor decision making ( after his first attempt he should have laid the ball to Suarez instead he fluffed another two chances as did Adam), Skrtel randomly passed off balls without looking ( hes a goal for the opposition waiting to happen)

And finally I cant understand how teams roll over and die for united. Bolton may as well not have turned up.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 10, 2011, 08:52:15 PM
But we were never in it, dude. Too many new players, too many structural problems to solve after Rafa's mismanagement during his last 2 seasons. Yes we were a tad unlucky, yes the ref did his best to deny us what was right, but we need to score from the open chances we had. I read somewhere our possession rate throughout the game was 73 %. If this was a one-off I can live with it but too often during the past decade or so I've seen games like this. All of a sudden next weekend's game at WHL seems to be somewhat seasondefining.

Martin, on the pitch, I think we have the resources in place to fight for the title this season.

yes, they have to bed-in.  yes, we have a weakness in Carragher.  yes, carroll is no alan shearer.

but across the pitch, we now have top notch players....suarez is a world beater.......reina is top drawer...agger is top drawer....downing looks like he has been a red all his life, top player.....enrique looks top drawer too.....adams is a great asset, kuyt is a top top player, etc, etc.

but the key problem that I see, is that the resources are not being deployed properly.  Kenny is in the spotlight here.  As long as Kenny can bully and dominate opposition with money/resources, then all is fine.  But when his starting eleven run into problems, he is all at sea.  I saw this same issue when he was managing at Liverpool first time round.  I saw it when he bossed at Blackburn.  He cannot turn things around.  It is a career long problem that he has had in the dugout.  He gets out-thought and cannot respond.

It is very frustrating, given the world class resources that we have on the pitch these days.

I will say it again.  I think we have the players to fight for the title.  My deep frustration is in their deployment. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 10, 2011, 09:31:00 PM
many of stoke's lads will have been on international duty too, ASI.
Really? I can't think of any.

Quote
no, we had plenty of possession, good domination of the game, plenty of good chances (tho not as many clear cut chances as our dominant level of possession should have produced).
We had 60%, probably more and they had 1 shot on target. That makes it as close as possible to parking the bus as you can get. We have always struggled against teams who do that. Even Rafa struggled so I don't blame Kenny.

Quote
maybe Stoke are our new nemesis, like Tes says.....but sadly we seem to have too many nemesises (plural?) in the premiership.
Probably. I can't think of any others. We just beat Arsenal at the Emirates to kill one nemesis and despatched Fulham last season who might be another.

Quote
yes, we are a new side - with lots of new players yet to properly bed-in.  And that takes time.
They looked well bedded in last home game against Bolton and also at Arsenal. I haven't seen the game yet so can't comment on what happened today.

Quote
but I still have the doubts that I have always had.....i.e.  a weak chink in our defence (Carra was done three years ago).......and Kenny is fine on a summer's day, when things start/progress well.  But when it comes to analysing an opposition pre-game, or especially when making changes during a game to rectify bad situations, kenny is all at sea.
I agree with the first part but not the second. Anyway, Rafa often put subs on who made no difference.

Quote
we needed a clear cool head, like Moreless, to be brought on today.....but some bright spark sold him the other week.  Instead we had to bring on Carroll. 
We have enough creativity in midfield with Adam and Suarez up front. They probably just had an off-day. Meireles had a decent debut but we always knew he was a good player. But he's gone now.

Quote
another couple of results like this, and the title will be out of our reach for yet another year.
We're 5th, 5 points off the leaders. I don't see us playing like that again and not getting something. Anyway, didn't John Henry say 4th was this season's target? The title was too big a jump.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 10, 2011, 09:46:43 PM
This was part of the report from the Daily Mail...

"But Stoke manned the barricades and with Liverpool seemingly intent on going through the middle more often than not they made it easier for their opponents to crowd them out."

If we have wide men why didn't we play to their strengths are put in some crosses especially when Carroll came on? It sounds like we just played through a congested central section and met with a brick wall. That needs to change against teams who park the bus.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 11, 2011, 01:29:24 PM
Martin, on the pitch, I think we have the resources in place to fight for the title this season.

yes, they have to bed-in.  yes, we have a weakness in Carragher.  yes, carroll is no alan shearer.

but across the pitch, we now have top notch players....suarez is a world beater.......reina is top drawer...agger is top drawer....downing looks like he has been a red all his life, top player.....enrique looks top drawer too.....adams is a great asset, kuyt is a top top player, etc, etc.

but the key problem that I see, is that the resources are not being deployed properly.  Kenny is in the spotlight here.  As long as Kenny can bully and dominate opposition with money/resources, then all is fine.  But when his starting eleven run into problems, he is all at sea.  I saw this same issue when he was managing at Liverpool first time round.  I saw it when he bossed at Blackburn.  He cannot turn things around.  It is a career long problem that he has had in the dugout.  He gets out-thought and cannot respond.

It is very frustrating, given the world class resources that we have on the pitch these days.

I will say it again.  I think we have the players to fight for the title.  My deep frustration is in their deployment.

I hear what you say dude, and I must say your post is quite worrying as I tend to agree with most of it. Kenny seems hellbent on playing Henderson and that's his call, of course. But how does it effect the team? I think playing Kuijt to the right and Carrol and Suarez upfront yesterday would've increased our chances dramatically. As it was, we became too one-dimensional in attack making it increasingly easy for an extremly defensive Stoke side to keep us in check. In that sense I totally agree with you. In a way I'm not sure Kenny knows his best starting XI much the same problem Rafa had. I think playing Henderson is costing us dearly in terms of cohesion and compusure. Give the lad a rest and let the team find good form, then he'll have a better setting to settle in.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 11, 2011, 02:41:22 PM
Guess who will make way once Gerrard returns? Henderson almost certainly. And that date looks like next Sunday.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 11, 2011, 04:25:21 PM
Guess who will make way once Gerrard returns? Henderson almost certainly. And that date looks like next Sunday.

Gerrad replacing Henderson won't solve our problem as Stevie most likely won't fancy playing RM. So what? Back to 4-5-1 with Lucas, Adam, Gerrard in the center, and Kuijt/Downing on the flanks? I'm not sure that's our most appropriate line up given the design of our squad. It'll never see Suarez and Carrol on the pitch together.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 11, 2011, 04:26:43 PM
I hear what you say dude, and I must say your post is quite worrying as I tend to agree with most of it. Kenny seems hellbent on playing Henderson and that's his call, of course. But how does it effect the team? I think playing Kuijt to the right and Carrol and Suarez upfront yesterday would've increased our chances dramatically. As it was, we became too one-dimensional in attack making it increasingly easy for an extremly defensive Stoke side to keep us in check. In that sense I totally agree with you. In a way I'm not sure Kenny knows his best starting XI much the same problem Rafa had. I think playing Henderson is costing us dearly in terms of cohesion and compusure. Give the lad a rest and let the team find good form, then he'll have a better setting to settle in.

correct, Martin, we had total control of the park, but our attack was so one-dimensional.  It seemed uncoordinated, and there were too few guilt edged chances for such an amount of pressure.  Having said that, there were more than enough chances to have won the game.

We made some bad decisions at times - for goodness sake lads, look up before you spray a pass to nobody.  And often the neat short ball is the best ball.  And always give the ball to a man in a better position.  Henderson, when clean through, only had to lay the ball to his left and Suarez (or even Adam) would have had a tap in.  Instead he had three goes, and failed miserably with all.  But that will come with experience.  Henderson is a young lad who will develop.  He should be introduced to the team slowly.  But as ASI says, Gerrard will no doubt be back in the next week or two.

The other grumble I had, was far too often a ball gets knocked in to the box, and there is nobody on, or attacking the penalty spot.  WTF is that about. 

I am not a big fan of many of the refs.....but to be honest, I had no real gripes with the ref's performance yesterday.  Our claim of a penalty, was clearly accidental, ball to hand. 

Kenny is under the spotlight big-time and thus one sees him attacking the ref.  Predictable, I guess.  He's trying to deflect the spotlight onto someone else.

I said at the time of the games, that we should have whacked Sunderland by 3 or 4 goals....and Bolton were there for a mauling, 5 or 6 goal mauling (just like United did to them yesterday).  We laboured to a draw against Sunderland; and rather than hammer Bolton, despite all our dominance, we won by 3-1. 

We have to start turning our pressure into goals. 

Otherwise what we have witnessed in these opening games of the season, will become the norm.

We need a far better co-ordinated attack, we need (as ASI correctly says) to start properly using our width.  And my two pennies, Carra's position needs to be looked at.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 11, 2011, 04:44:38 PM
Gerrad replacing Henderson won't solve our problem as Stevie most likely won't fancy playing RM. So what? Back to 4-5-1 with Lucas, Adam, Gerrard in the center, and Kuijt/Downing on the flanks? I'm not sure that's our most appropriate line up given the design of our squad. It'll never see Suarez and Carrol on the pitch together.
What exactly is our problem Martin? I haven't seen much wrong this season. I don't see Gerrard's return as the answer to a problem. More a strengthening of the team. I'll leave Kenny to work out the formation.

No, I don't expect to see Carroll and Suarez on the field together. One wasn't bought with the other in mind. Suarez was bought to partner Torres. Carroll is a very different striker to Torres. I'd like Carroll to be given 90 mins to show what he can do but I suspect that's more likely to happen against Brighton than Spurs. At the moment, Suarez is undroppable.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on September 11, 2011, 06:22:24 PM
We have to start turning our pressure into goals. 

Otherwise what we have witnessed in these opening games of the season, will become the norm.

We need a far better co-ordinated attack, we need (as ASI correctly says) to start properly using our width.  And my two pennies, Carra's position needs to be looked at.

Can you imagine having Robbie Fowler from his prime playing up front with Suarez. It would be devastating.

In relation to Kenny I think he has a fair complaint to make. He respects referees and refuses to publically criticise them or their linesmen. But they have cost Liverpool at least a point yesterday and two points against Sunderland. On the other hand the likes of Ferguson can call referees unfit, can state having a preferential referee, can consistently abuse the officials in post match interviews yet his team are generally always on the right side of officials decisions. They always have been. That Spurs game 5 or 6 years back when the ball was nearly a metre over the United line still infuriates me. I'd love to see foreign refs in the Premier League because there is definitely far too much inconsistency with the officials in England.

In relation to Carragher I agree to an extent. I dont think there is any point in putting him out to pasture just yet, he still has a huge amount to offer. I wouldnt have said that last season or the season before but I think his level of performance has increased under Kenny. But I do think if they are to eventually replace Carragher they should start the transition now. Coates needs some game time. United have been willing to throw Smalling and Jones in straight away, granted both had PL experience but realistically United are the benchmark.

And next out the door for me would be Skrtel. He is an average defender that is prone to error. Id replace him with someone capable of challenging Coates and Agger should they be deemed the future of our defence.

Johnson has apparently done his hamstring again. I cant see us ever getting an injury free season out of himself or Kelly.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 11, 2011, 08:33:10 PM
interesting duo idea, Juan, i.e. Robbie and Suarez.  Though both are quite greedy and singleminded, so I wonder which one would get to be the alpha male/striker.  :)   Might end up like Owen and Robbie.

I think Syrtel is possibly ok, if he plays second fiddle in a CD partnership.  But he needs guidance.  He needs a top player beside him.  Coates, as you say, will need time.  Jones (the blackburn lad) was frustrating to miss out on.  Sorry to hear of Johnston's continual woes.  Though never ever good enough in my book.   I pray that Agger stays fit.  Top top player.

Yes, that ref error when Spurs played United should have seen those officials never ever again being allowed to officiate in top flight football. 

Foreign refs would be a good idea. 



Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 11, 2011, 10:15:00 PM

Soft penalty but it was a penalty none the less. I thought Carragher was unlucky not to get an initial foul in his favour because Walters barged into him. It doesnt excuse Carragher putting his arms around him though, and doing that gives the referee the option of calling for a penalty.


Watched it a few times now and I still can't make my mind up whether Carra put is arm round the guy as he was stumbling as an instinctive response our whether it was deliberate. Carra is prone to manhandling a bit too much, buy I'm probably going to give him the benefit on this one. (Must be getting soft in my old age).

The first penalty shout was probably justified, the second was ball to hand, though watching the Championship highlights on BBC last there was a very similar situation that resulted in a penalty.

Still, we had two very good opportunities, so the penalty debate should have been irrelevant.

We are what we are at the moment - a team with a lot of new players, with a manager who's been in the seat for half a season, working with a lot of players who haven't played a more expansive, positive game. At least not for this club.

Fourth is still the only realistic target for this season. We still lack both the quality and experience of playing together as a squad for anything grander. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on September 12, 2011, 01:56:58 PM
Saw the game...on dl...2 days after the shock at the result...

Well done stoke btw...cos you use what you have and you ride your luck...
Thought the Carra penalty was 50/50 but have seen em given and if you insist on wrapping your arms round a player then in this day and age they will take the opportunity to go down like they've been shot through the pineal gland...if you don't give them the opportunity then they can look like the diving tw*** that they are...nuff said...
coates needs to be introduced sharpish...spurs would be good...this guy played in the copa america final so he knows pressure...so why not?

It would also be nice if we could hit the ball at the net between the two posts...the difference between liverpool vs bolton and manure vs bolton was that every time a ball broke free then there was someone who hit the ball accurately at goal...i don;t know what it is....maybe we need some self help guru like anthony robbins to allow us to slow down, not snatch and have the confidence just to aim...then its up to the opposition keeper...
having said that i thought stoke defended well and their keeper did well...

as for the other ref's decisions...
a definate penalty to us in the first half with delap's handball...
clutching at straws for the suarez kick against the leg then the elbow..no penalty...

would like to see maxi introduced into the mix...he is creative and am concerned that we have got rid of aquilani, merieles and not playing our other creative player in maxi...you need a creative spark in midfield...
all great midfields have someone who does something unexpected...
Henderson is obviously filling in for gerrard...if they swap every now and then with jordan learning from his elder all well and good...
enrique and downing played well again....lucas did his thing...but our midfield still needs that sweet something...

follow the rafa way on subs, i think you'll find he was the best substitution maker of ANY of the liverpool managers...and he always changed it around at the 60-65 minute stage...

the result might have been an anomaly....but we don't want it turning into habit...


 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on September 12, 2011, 05:32:19 PM
We are what we are at the moment - a team with a lot of new players, with a manager who's been in the seat for half a season, working with a lot of players who haven't played a more expansive, positive game. At least not for this club.

Fourth is still the only realistic target for this season. We still lack both the quality and experience of playing together as a squad for anything grander.

Couldnt agree more Tes.

During the summer most of us agreed it was going to take more than one or two transfer windows to fix the problems at hand. In fairness to Kenny and Comolli they probably did 3 transfer windows work this summer. We will continue to edge forward. Getting to 5th or 6th in the league is the easy part, making 4th 3rd and beyond is where I see it being slow progress. Thats why Im also surprised at the levels of criticism towards some of the new players already. For me the difference between the squad of players and the football being played between this season and last is huge. The teams still not the finished article though so I think it needs to be given time and support. If a player flops they flop but fans should give the players at least a chance to be a success. By that I mean at least a full season.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on September 12, 2011, 05:49:45 PM
Saw the game...on dl...2 days after the shock at the result...

Well done stoke btw...cos you use what you have and you ride your luck...
Thought the Carra penalty was 50/50 but have seen em given and if you insist on wrapping your arms round a player then in this day and age they will take the opportunity to go down like they've been shot through the pineal gland...if you don't give them the opportunity then they can look like the diving tw*** that they are...nuff said...
coates needs to be introduced sharpish...spurs would be good...this guy played in the copa america final so he knows pressure...so why not?

It would also be nice if we could hit the ball at the net between the two posts...the difference between liverpool vs bolton and manure vs bolton was that every time a ball broke free then there was someone who hit the ball accurately at goal...i don;t know what it is....maybe we need some self help guru like anthony robbins to allow us to slow down, not snatch and have the confidence just to aim...then its up to the opposition keeper...
having said that i thought stoke defended well and their keeper did well...

as for the other ref's decisions...
a definate penalty to us in the first half with delap's handball...
clutching at straws for the suarez kick against the leg then the elbow..no penalty...

would like to see maxi introduced into the mix...he is creative and am concerned that we have got rid of aquilani, merieles and not playing our other creative player in maxi...you need a creative spark in midfield...
all great midfields have someone who does something unexpected...
Henderson is obviously filling in for gerrard...if they swap every now and then with jordan learning from his elder all well and good...
enrique and downing played well again....lucas did his thing...but our midfield still needs that sweet something...

follow the rafa way on subs, i think you'll find he was the best substitution maker of ANY of the liverpool managers...and he always changed it around at the 60-65 minute stage...

the result might have been an anomaly....but we don't want it turning into habit...

Agreed Bart would like to see Maxi still in the mix. He was one of the most improved performers under Kenny with two hat tricks in close succession. Its a bit unfair on him to be nudged out of the picture just because we have some new players on board. If anything it might not have been a bad idea to make one or two of the new players fight for their place instead of being automatic starters. Whatever the case Maxis deserved more runs that hes received so far.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on September 12, 2011, 07:35:14 PM
Have to say I agree with everything Tomkins says in the article below. He speaks sense!


http://tomkinstimes.com/2011/09/kenny-dalglish-is-ruining-liverpool/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheTomkinsTimes+%28The+Tomkins+Times%29
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on September 12, 2011, 08:01:25 PM
Nine months on from Torres transfer to Chelsea I dont think I could have wished for a better outcome for the striker.

I revelled the 18 games it took him to score his first goal, I gloated at his overall poor showing for Chelsea last season. I genuinely thought with a preseason under his belt it would all change for Nando and even tipped him to be top scorer. Instead this season with the exception of one game he has been poor, especially by the high standards he set at Liverpool. So maybe when people claimed last season that Torres had stopped trying at LFC he was actually washed up.

I dont like to see top players like Torres struggle but the manner in which he left us I cant help but smile at seeing him struggle. I still wonder what if he and Suarez were up front for us. Potentially lethal.  Anyway AVB confirmed today that Torres was in fact dropped on saturday. Now the club are also looking into comments Torres made in an interview in Spain. Torres claimed Chelseas midfield is old and slow. The striker said the comments were misinterpreted but it hasnt stopped AVB looking for the official tape of the interview. Clearly he doesnt trust torres on or off the pitch. Not exactly a good start to the pairs relationship. With everything thats happened Im sure Torres must regret walking out on LFC now. If things continue for the player in this vein I'd love to see Kenny make a cheeky loan bid for him in January, obviously with no actual intention of taking the player back to the club. Torres must look at LFC and realise Suarez would have been a dream partner compared to what he has at Chelsea. He went to win things but as I see it LFC have almost as good a chance to pick up silverware this season as Chelsea do.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/14887120.stm
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 12, 2011, 09:45:31 PM
Sorry Guys, I thought the forum was finished!! Can't link to it from the homepage...

Anyway, yeah, I agree with Dude going back a few points and I was ranting about it on the final
day of the Window... Had Meireles been on the pitch for Hendersons triple miss, it was in the back
of the net first-time no doubt in my mind (I can actually see him scoring it!!).

I'm not blaming Henderson, he still had the presence of mind to lay it off to Adam (which was good,
imo). Anyway, once we sold Meireles, as I said before, we're in a dogfight for 4th, imo. Which I think
fits in with the owners expectations i.e. get champions league and reduce the wage bill. I just think
that we're short one player in the centre to provide the right squad balance and Meireles fitted that role
perfectly... creative, experienced, an international, can score goals, play the big games, make a difference
 etc.. I expect Stevie G to make a big difference when he gets back but, he'd need to be fit (and on fire)
for the entire season for us to trouble the top 2 (Doubt, he has the legs to do it so consistently).

I kindof disagree with Dude about the subs though, imo it made sense to bring on Carroll and Bellers.
It didn't work...ok, no problem.

To be fair to Carra on the peno, I thought he was barged initially by the player but after that it was car-crash defending
(no complaints!) and some of his hoof-ball stuff was painful viewing:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/p058z9a3o466Lmrx2H3Q

Some thoughtful bloke over at the Guardian also shows that our performance in terms of successful passes
was much improved BUT we gave the ball away roughly the same amount of times as the last time we played
them (Least I think that's what the 2 diagrams say? :D ):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/99m78wTBi33424r76zR6
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 12, 2011, 11:01:04 PM
I kindof disagree with Dude about the subs though, imo it made sense to bring on Carroll and Bellers.
It didn't work...ok, no problem.

no disagreement there, Ed.

in the absence of Moreless, Carroll and Bellamy would have been my two subs too.

my issue is with Kenny's career long inability to turn games around, both tactically and with his subs.   Why bring on the two subs at once in games.  Subs should be used with precision, and be deployed like as in chess match.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 13, 2011, 12:00:58 AM
in the absence of Moreless, Carroll and Bellamy would have been my two subs too.

my issue is with Kenny's career long inability to turn games around, both tactically and with his subs.   Why bring on the two subs at once in games.  Subs should be used with precision, and be deployed like as in chess match.
I agree, I'd liked to have seen Carroll a bit earlier....The thing about Suarez is that he appears to be everywhere
but in the centre, so who exactly are Downing or Henderson supposed to be crossing it in to??? or Adam from midfield?
again even Carra or Skrtel knocking long balls up field to who?? Sure, Suarez will run the channels and drag a defender
or two with him but that wasn't really working for us against Stoke. Without a creative guy in midfield a lot of the team
has been built around having Carroll on the pitch.

I think Bellamy will be used in the last ten minutes to give us a bit of energy up front....unfortunately it smacked
of desperation when plan A hadn't worked and given the amount of time Maxi has been with us, I was surprised
that he felt Stoke was the place to try out the Carroll/Bellamy partnership though I do see the logic behind it (it's a bit
similar to the first game when we saw all the new faces at once!).

Hopefully, Gerrard coming back will help Carroll and give us the time we need to figure out what to do with all
the chess pieces because I'm still optimistic about some of those possibilities.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 13, 2011, 12:12:11 AM
oh you;re right, Ed..........it is organised chaos.

everybody wanders about, and there are clear issues of who is supposed t obe where and doing what.

I gave up ranting about crosses floating in to empty penalty spots.  Our lads seem to run to the front third of the box. 

I am delighted with the resources that we have.  And Kenny is definitely a top 4 manager.  But it is frustrating watching the lack of cohesion.  It's early days, but I have reservations about the dugout.   I often see kamikaze, I do not see precision. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 13, 2011, 01:41:39 AM
I often see kamikaze, I do not see precision. 
I created this chalkboard myself to highlight that point...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/1T3X3WGDu99kF1lR60VH

For me that's absolutely shocking from Adam! Is he not supposed to be the passer in the team?
24 unsuccessful passes, 16 from open play!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 13, 2011, 12:07:16 PM
that's a scary chalkboard, Ed.

so many passes from Adam went astray.  And I noted that it was after going behind, that we lost our composure.  Our players then attacked Stoke, as opposed to our team attacking Stoke.   When United go behind, their attacks become even more focussed......ours get more scatter-gun approach.  When United fall behind, they get out the sniper rifle.  When we fall behind, we get out the shotgun and buckshot.

It was not just Adam who was misfiring passes.  Others were doing it too.  People have to look up and be aware of what is on around them.  A player has to be aware, even before the ball arrives, as to what is happening around him. 

I saw selfishness on the pitch.  Suarez can be selfish.  I fear that selfishness is maybe making others do the same.  In the triple Henderson shot incident - Henderson could (and probably should) have laid the ball left to Suarez.  Adam could have done the same.  Neither man was prepared to pass.   

The Liverpool dynasty was built on selfless performances.....giving the ball to the man in the better position (a sea of red).

In the captain marvel era, many have most likely forgotten this basic tenet.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 13, 2011, 09:40:03 PM
Couldnt agree more Tes.

During the summer most of us agreed it was going to take more than one or two transfer windows to fix the problems at hand. In fairness to Kenny and Comolli they probably did 3 transfer windows work this summer. We will continue to edge forward. Getting to 5th or 6th in the league is the easy part, making 4th 3rd and beyond is where I see it being slow progress. Thats why Im also surprised at the levels of criticism towards some of the new players already. For me the difference between the squad of players and the football being played between this season and last is huge. The teams still not the finished article though so I think it needs to be given time and support. If a player flops they flop but fans should give the players at least a chance to be a success. By that I mean at least a full season.

Exactly Juan and even though Chelsea may have another new manager, the bulk of the squad have consistently played together for several seasons, and it shows.

We are building in a steady and sustainable way and the overhaul of the squad in one window has been amazing. We now have a great base laid and will be able to add fewer players going forward meaning fewer players needing to gell together at any one time. We have half a new team with two other players who've had only half a season with us, and in Andy Carroll's case not even that, at least not on the pitch.

Thankfully Shankly wasn't manager in the internet age.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on September 13, 2011, 11:47:04 PM
Exactly Juan and even though Chelsea may have another new manager, the bulk of the squad have consistently played together for several seasons, and it shows.

We are building in a steady and sustainable way and the overhaul of the squad in one window has been amazing. We now have a great base laid and will be able to add fewer players going forward meaning fewer players needing to gell together at any one time. We have half a new team with two other players who've had only half a season with us, and in Andy Carroll's case not even that, at least not on the pitch.

Thankfully Shankly wasn't manager in the internet age.

Very true Tes. We are now getting to the position regarding the playing staff that United were 5,10,15 years ago.. We can stop worrying about bringing in quantity and start buying quality. Aside from the financial dominance United have been able to bring in the Rooneys, Van Nistelrooys, Ferdinands for years now because they havent needed a squad overhaul every summer.

Even in the Meireles case Im glad his futures been sorted although I would have liked if he stayed. At least now though the situations been dealt with, we arent looking to offload an unhappy player in January. We have an extra 12 million in the coffers and who knows maybe that will be used towards buying the likes of Hazzard. 

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 14, 2011, 11:29:48 PM
Very true Tes. We are now getting to the position regarding the playing staff that United were 5,10,15 years ago.. We can stop worrying about bringing in quantity and start buying quality. Aside from the financial dominance United have been able to bring in the Rooneys, Van Nistelrooys, Ferdinands for years now because they havent needed a squad overhaul every summer.

Even in the Meireles case Im glad his futures been sorted although I would have liked if he stayed. At least now though the situations been dealt with, we arent looking to offload an unhappy player in January. We have an extra 12 million in the coffers and who knows maybe that will be used towards buying the likes of Hazzard.

It's a shame about Raul. Good players are always useful but players who want to be at the club are much more useful.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 16, 2011, 01:15:02 PM
Always like playing Spurs

Here's a link to some classics:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/16/joy-of-six-spurs-liverpool
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 16, 2011, 08:05:22 PM
saw that article this morning, Ed.

Brought back memories of that great Terry McDermott goal. 

I would love to have seen that 1978 team.

Tho I was lucky enough to see the August 1979 team.....3-1 at Anfield v WBA.


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 16, 2011, 08:49:27 PM
I would love to have seen that 1978 team.

Totally, Dalglish's second goal is an example of what made that team great, imo.

Dalglish, tries a shot, misses...
Souness there to pounce...
Case has filled the space where Souey would be...

Attacking in waves...

Anyway, Spurs are due a good beating by us! LOL :)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 16, 2011, 08:56:50 PM
excatly, Ed....attacking in waves....a sea of red.

sadly for us, the modern sky premiership era brought in capitalism and the ME ME ME era, and our communist (with a small C mind said Bob Paisley) style era was over.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 16, 2011, 09:07:00 PM
So can we turn around our recent mediocre record against Spurs, especially at 'the Lane'?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 17, 2011, 12:06:43 PM
probably not. 

I hope Suarez can get amongst them.  If Spurs can keep him quiet, we are in problems.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 17, 2011, 03:29:41 PM
Should be a fantastic game....

Midfield battle (Lucas) is key, imo. If we can keep Parker & Modric quiet, then
the only thing we have to worry about is Bale on the wing, which is a
worry, imo, if we're not solid at right back.

I think that we have enough options going forward to cause them problems,
Downing, Suarez, Carroll & Kuyt (It'll be a bit different to Stoke with their 8
defenders in the box!). Hopefully, Adam can ping some balls around the park
and stretch them at the back. Good opportunity also for Henderson to make
his mark ahead of Stevie G's return (which I'm looking forward to, because
we're nowhere at the moment in the centre at the edge of the box).

Big, big game for Spurs though so.... C'mon Lads!!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 17, 2011, 11:01:50 PM
I'll settle for a 1-0 however it happens. This is one of those where the result matters more than the performance.

I fancy a slice of humble pie courtesy of Andy Carroll. I've got the custard at the ready.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 18, 2011, 02:46:07 AM
I'll settle for a 1-0 however it happens. This is one of those where the result matters more than the performance.
Agreed, after the defeat to Stoke, win is vital imo, need to put some daylight between
us and Spurs & Arsenal. Worry about the top 3 later. Don't care who's shin it comes off!

An early test of character...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 11:05:24 AM
At this stage this game has make or break written all over it. However, if we lose and then go on a 12-13 games unbeaten run no one would remember this game. But again, losing today while the Mancs beat Chelsea this season would be over already as far as the title goes. Not that we were in it in the first place realistically but the psychological effect of being knocked out of the title race this early would deffo be a blow.

As was stated above a win regardless of how would be sweet, but even sweeter would be a clear cut win in style. Then we would truly send a message we're going places.

I'm so nervous it's not healthy. Isn't it our turn to win there? Last season we outplayed them for most of the game before silly defending cost us two goals. And 3 years back we completly played them off the park yet they got away with two lucky goals.

Come on you redmen!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 18, 2011, 12:30:40 PM
At this stage this game has make or break written all over it. However, if we lose and then go on a 12-13 games unbeaten run no one would remember this game. But again, losing today while the Mancs beat Chelsea this season would be over already as far as the title goes. Not that we were in it in the first place realistically but the psychological effect of being knocked out of the title race this early would deffo be a blow.

As was stated above a win regardless of how would be sweet, but even sweeter would be a clear cut win in style. Then we would truly send a message we're going places.

I'm so nervous it's not healthy. Isn't it our turn to win there? Last season we outplayed them for most of the game before silly defending cost us two goals. And 3 years back we completly played them off the park yet they got away with two lucky goals.

Come on you redmen!

Martin, I don't see anything, whether negative or positive in terms of the title this season. We need to be realistic and forget about it in any context this season.
Two seasons outside of the top four tells it's own story and brings a whole array of issues that need addressing.
It's easy to fall out of the top four and much harder to break back in.

So we need to look at who we are likely to be competing with for fourth. Spurs and Arsenal over the length of the season are the obvious contenders with maybe one other either staying the course or emerging out of the pack post January.
This weekend therefore is by far the biggest and probably prove to be in the top three in terms of importance in the context of our whole season. We have a chance to pick up three points on both our rivals in the same weekend.

The games against the Mancs are irrelevant as far as our season goes other than they being 6 points to gain and the twin by-products of bragging rights and us doing what we can to stop them going two ahead of us in titles won.

The last two seasons have simply accelerated the demise our club has been going through ever since Moores became chairman and Souness was appointed manager.
Only now are we in a position to start the long haul back, and it is a long haul, as we are years behind the teams we would like to be competing against in terms of finance and club structure.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 01:15:04 PM
I hear what you say tes and I think you're very sensible. I'm just saying altho most of us realise how unrealistic any talk of the title is, it nevertheless may effect our chances to reach 4th if we fall too far behind the pacesetters. If that make sense in Swenglish, I don't know.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 18, 2011, 01:45:23 PM
I find myself in here, like old Blighty in 1941 against jerry, a tad isolated on this issue.

I find it difficult to comprehend the defeatist approach. 

Surely, given the massive amount of money we have spent this year, we are entitled to dream of more than just scrambling for fourth spot - especially given that our supposed rivals like Spurs have spent peanuts in comparison. 

There is something badly wrong if we accept the title race is over for us in September.  Something very badly wrong.  Maybe we have been in the behold of Manchester for too long - the Stockholm Manchester Syndrome - where we have been brainwashed into thinking that this is the normal course of events.

For goodness sake we have spent an absolute fortune this year.  We get most of our key targets.  And it cost us some 112 million quid bringing in Andy Carroll, Luis Suarez, Doni, Charlie Adam, Jose Enrique, Jordan Henderson, Stewart Downing and the South American lad, Coates. 

No, I disagree with you peeps (mind, I love you all..and we will drink beer and make merry on future issues).  If we spend this volume of money, and accept that we are merely fighting for fourth (and that the title race is over in September), then there is something badly wrong here.

We've had 20 years of excuses.  And this season is the biggest whopper of an excuse that I have ever heard at Anfield. 
Title: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on September 18, 2011, 02:07:46 PM
35mins in v thfc.  Absolute dire performance by LFC. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 18, 2011, 02:11:38 PM
Kuyt, for reasons only known to Kenny, is on the bench.  Dirk would be always my first name on the teamsheet - especially in a game like this, away from home, against a top rival, where hard work and closing down is key.  Unless the lad is carrying an injury, this is a helluva mistake.

Bale is making hay down that left side. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 02:24:09 PM
This team's going nowhere with Lucas a regular starter. He's the 3rd most experienced player on the pitch yet he offers nothing, absolutely nothing. Same with Henderson, he may be young, he may need time to settle in but the last time I checked it's the players for the club not the other way round.

I'm starting to get critical of Kenny to be honest. It's so naive to think we can play this game without Kuijt. Also, wasn't it written all over Spurs would start the game in a furious tempo, so why the fork don't we adjust to that?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 18, 2011, 02:26:05 PM
Why did we start with 2 up front away from home against a decent side? That's asking for trouble with Spurs dominating midfield.

Superb Modric goal but we're giving them too much space on the ball and aren't closing them down at all.

Carroll offers next to nothing. We needed the extra man in midfield but now that we're down to 10 he'll have to go and Kuyt to replace him.

Unlucky not to equalise but Suarez was offside. He needs a bloody good slap after his yellow for dissent. The team have lost their shape and discipline. The riot act needs reading!!

Only 1 down so we could salvage something if Kenny sorts out tactics. This could be his big opportunity to show us he's a good tactician.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 02:29:14 PM
2??? This was 4-3-3 IMHO. Extremly naive and asks alot about Kenny's tactical knowledge.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 18, 2011, 02:35:24 PM
what frustrates the hell out of me, is that we have a superb set of top class players.

they are just very poorly organised/deployed.

the way this team is organised, top 4 is a pipe dream, it is more like a top 6 finish we will be aiming for instead.

kenny's inadequacies are patently obvious. 

a top class manager, like rafa, would excel with this luxury of resources to call upon.

can you imagine the blitzkreig the media would give a *foreigner* like Rafa, if he had spent 112 million quid this year and the club were as badly organised as this.





Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 02:37:37 PM
Defoe and Adebayor's our best players missing sitter after sitter. No changes at halftime. That's fornicating criminal.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 18, 2011, 02:41:22 PM
defoe missed an absolute sitter at the start of the second half.  Reina stood routed to his spot, expecting the net to ripple behind him.

the miracle is that Spurs are not out of sight by now.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 02:44:33 PM
But they soon will be keeping Henderson and Carrol on the pitch, keeping Kuijt and Bellamy on the bench.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 18, 2011, 02:55:41 PM
Down to 9 with Sktrel off. Suarez needs replacing with Bellamy but whilst we're only 1 down and Spurs are wasting chances there's still a chance.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 18, 2011, 02:57:07 PM
Me and my big mouth!!! 2-0.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 02:58:15 PM
Well done Skrtel. Well done Kenny. Well done Liverpool. 4th yer havin a larf?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 03:01:14 PM
There's a lot of talk about how good a squad we have so what about Skrtel, Lucas, Henderson, Downing, Carrol? Some 90-100 million worth of mediocrity I say.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 03:06:32 PM
Thank God Kenny's name not Roy Hodgson or the knifes would already be out. In my book Kenny has a lot of work to do to regain my confidence. Too many basic errors like last week. It's not a knee jerk reaction but I can't see us get better than 6th this season really - too many poor decisions this far.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 18, 2011, 03:10:37 PM
Thank God Kenny's name not Roy Hodgson or the knifes would already be out. In my book Kenny has a lot of work to do to regain my confidence. Too many basic errors like last week. It's not a knee jerk reaction but I can't see us get better than 6th this season really - too many poor decisions this far.

There's a lot of talk about how good a squad we have so what about Skrtel, Lucas, Henderson, Downing, Carrol? Some 90-100 million worth of mediocrity I say.

Well done Skrtel. Well done Kenny. Well done Liverpool. 4th yer havin a larf?

Call yourself a Red?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 18, 2011, 03:12:35 PM
Martin, we have plenty of top players at the club.

The problem is that they are badly organised.

The problem is in the dugout, not on the pitch.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 03:13:02 PM
Yes I do and I probably did a lot longer than you. Too many errors of judgement, too much mediocrity. That's the truth. Is speaking the truth disqualifying me as a red?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 18, 2011, 03:15:21 PM
Martin. I don't think you're a LFC supporter at all. One bad gane and your panning everyone. The number of times we lose by 3 goals can be counted on the fingers of one hand over years.

So after 5 games you've already decided where we'll finish. Brilliant!!  :(
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 03:16:44 PM
Martin, we have plenty of top players at the club.

The problem is that they are badly organised.

The problem is in the dugout, not on the pitch.

I don't deny we have plenty of top players, just as I don't deny we have plenty of mediocrity. This is the second time Kenny's making it difficult for the team to get a result by his inept teamt selection. It seems it's more important to give Henderson game time than how the team fare. That's not acceptable to me. Where the fornicating hell the idea he could play Spurs away without Kuijt on the pitch comes from I don't know. How he could leave an unchanged XI after such a pisspoor first half clearly shows mediocrity is the preferred level at Liverpool. Shall I go on?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 03:18:26 PM
Martin. I don't think you're a LFC supporter at all. One bad gane and your panning everyone. The number of times we lose by 3 goals can be counted on the fingers of one hand over years.

So after 5 games you've already decided where we'll finish. Brilliant!!  :(

Just like the majority of you lot decided Roy was the wrong man after 6 games last season.

It's not that we lose ASI, it's how. It's the number of errors of judgement on Kenny's part. It's the inability of the players to rise to the ocassion. It's how we approached the game. Shall I go on?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 18, 2011, 03:24:40 PM
Martin,

Hodgson was never the man for LFC. You're just the same as us if you think Dalglish is no good after  less than 1/2 a season.

Every team has shockers. But when your views are more balanced I'll believe you're a fan. You're quick to damn and slow to praise.

"Shall I go on?" No thanks, I've seen enough.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 18, 2011, 03:25:42 PM
oh I agree, Martin re Kuyt.  Once I saw the team sheet at the start of the game, I went to another website to make sure it was correct.  I then checked to see if Kuyt was injured or on the bench.  Only Kenny knows why Kuyt was on the bench for this game.
 
 But re mediocrity - no, we may have a lad like Carroll who is nowhere near good enough to lead the line at Liverpool, but the team is bristling with top class lads.  With  a genuinely topclass man in charge, I would have few worries about the direction of the club.
 
 the match is almost over here, I wonder will Kenny be blaming the officials again.
 
 4-0 now.
 
to be honest, we are lucky to have got away with 4.......could have been 7 or 8. 
 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 18, 2011, 03:32:15 PM
Martin,

Hodgson was never the man for LFC. You're just the same as us if you think Dalglish is no good after  less than 1/2 a season.

Every team has shockers. But when your views are more balanced I'll believe you're a fan. You're quick to damn and slow to praise.

"Shall I go on?" No thanks, I've seen enough.

Fair play ASI, reading his posts is so depressing and bringing up Hodgson??? No self-respecting Liverpool
supporter would have any sort of attachment to RH...

Anyway, there are loads of points to be discussed, hope to be back later to try trash out some
of the issues!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 03:36:48 PM
Martin,

Hodgson was never the man for LFC. You're just the same as us if you think Dalglish is no good after  less than 1/2 a season.

And I never said he was the right man, I just thought he'd get more than 6 games. I fell humiliated and embarrassed by this. I think this was the 2nd time this season where Kenny's inability/reluctance to change the game cost us dearly. Here's my main criticism of Kenny and I for one think they're all down to very very poor error of judgement.

*Carra's been playing RB on and off for a decade. In steps Skrtel and have a nightmare for the first 20. What do Kenny do to help him? Does he switch places with Carra? Noop!

*It was written all over Spurs would start the game throwing what they have at us. What do we do? Do we start the game in a defensive mind to successfully get into the game? Noop, we start with an extremly naive 4-3-3 line up perfectly suitable to meet Spurs needs.

* Henderson and Carrol had a tough start to the season, while the more experienced Kuijt and Bellamy was on the bench? Let's play Henderson and Carrol says Kenny. "Hell, let them play in the worst half this club's produced this year and keep play them. They'll turn it around", seems to be Kenny's line of thought.

It's not one bad game. It's how we react to last weekend's result. We say this season in and season out it's just a bad game. It's games like this we need to win. Especially after last weekend. Now it's obvious we haven't moved one inch since Kenny took over. It's the same old. We'll drop points next weekend against Wolves and people will say it's early days. But the same symptoms that plagued us for the last 15 years are still there.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 18, 2011, 03:36:54 PM
Ed,

AGreed. Can't see the point of bringing up our worst manager. Just put it down to a bad day at the office. Worst result in 8 years. Expect a reaction against Brighton.

After we lost to Spurs last season I thought we'd be better prepared. Everyone has to learn from today. Not our finest hour.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2011, 03:56:12 PM
It was today we needed a reaction, ASI. Not in a Mickey Mouse compo against Mickey Mouse opposition.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 18, 2011, 04:00:14 PM
And I never said he was the right man, I just thought he'd get more than 6 games. I fell humiliated and embarrassed by this. I think this was the 2nd time this season where Kenny's inability/reluctance to change the game cost us dearly. Here's my main criticism of Kenny and I for one think they're all down to very very poor error of judgement.
It was obvious from the start that Roy wasn't a big club man. His press comments showed him up as that. Kenny has a big-club attitude but no-one's perfect. With Agger off his options were limited but I think Carroll should have been replaced. But KK wants him to have game time.

Quote
*Carra's been playing RB on and off for a decade. In steps Skrtel and have a nightmare for the first 20. What do Kenny do to help him? Does he switch places with Carra? Noop!
We're unlucky that Johnson and Kelly are both injured. Carra would have been worse than Skrtel at RB with Bale's speed.

Quote
*It was written all over Spurs would start the game throwing what they have at us. What do we do? Do we start the game in a defensive mind to successfully get into the game? Noop, we start with an extremly naive 4-3-3 line up perfectly suitable to meet Spurs needs.
Really? Where did you say that prior to the game? After their last home game - 1-4 to City they might have been expected to start cautiously.

Quote
* Henderson and Carrol had a tough start to the season, while the more experienced Kuijt and Bellamy was on the bench? Let's play Henderson and Carrol says Kenny. "Hell, let them play in the worst half this club's produced this year and keep play them. They'll turn it around", seems to be Kenny's line of thought.

Henderson has done better than I expected. Agree about Carroll though. Bellamy was only bought 3 weeks ago so he hardly comes into the equation.

Quote
It's not one bad game. It's how we react to last weekend's result. We say this season in and season out it's just a bad game. It's games like this we need to win. Especially after last weekend. Now it's obvious we haven't moved one inch since Kenny took over. It's the same old. We'll drop points next weekend against Wolves and people will say it's early days. But the same symptoms that plagued us for the last 15 years are still there.

People aren't machines. They have bad days. We were unlucky not to get anything against Stoke. Today? Just write it off. Spurs won't play like that all season and neither will we. That's what I mean about a balanced opinion. If we win next weekend I look forward to your praise of the team. Then again...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 18, 2011, 04:06:48 PM
it's 10am here, but I feel like getting drunk today.

I am stepping outside the tent.  I may be some time.


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on September 18, 2011, 05:22:35 PM
Good call Dude. A few early morning beers will see you right.

I love the hysteria on here after a result like today. Martin you come across as the Roman Abramovich of football supporters. When we play a bag game its like the end of the world and your solution is to sack half the club. This has been our first bad performance of the season. And to compound our misery we got 2 deserved red cards. It didnt make for pretty viewing but I still think its far too early to be condemning players and making sweeping generalised statements like a certain player isnt up to it after 5 games in. I have no problem with people questioning the managers tactics or a players performance or contribution to the team in a game but lets not be shortsighted here. The squads been overhauled. It looks likes its going to take some time to find its rythm but until such time has passed that the squad has had a chance to settle together lets be a bit objective with our criticisms. Abusing Carroll, Henderson, Adam 5 games into a new season is not giving those players a sporting chance to succeed. Like the travelling fans at White Hart lane we should be getting behind the players especially the newer ones, not tearing them to pieces every chance we get.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 18, 2011, 05:54:29 PM
Well said Juan.

And after this weekend's results we're 2 points off 4th.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 18, 2011, 08:34:02 PM
Thankfully the season's finished. Now we can sack everyone and start again. BTW, what position did we finish in?

We forget about it, hopefully the players learn from it and we move on to our next trophy hunt, The League Cup (sponsored by Walt Disney's most famous character).
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 18, 2011, 11:08:08 PM
our next trophy hunt, The League Cup (sponsored by Walt Disney's most famous character).

Walt Disney wtf did he know and as for Mickey Mouse.... Rubbish, Absolutely Useless!
Donald Duck is another one who was never good enough and don't get me started on Goofy  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 19, 2011, 12:02:20 AM
Good call Dude. A few early morning beers will see you right.

I love the hysteria on here after a result like today. Martin you come across as the Roman Abramovich of football supporters. When we play a bag game its like the end of the world and your solution is to sack half the club. This has been our first bad performance of the season. And to compound our misery we got 2 deserved red cards. It didnt make for pretty viewing but I still think its far too early to be condemning players and making sweeping generalised statements like a certain player isnt up to it after 5 games in. I have no problem with people questioning the managers tactics or a players performance or contribution to the team in a game but lets not be shortsighted here. The squads been overhauled. It looks likes its going to take some time to find its rythm but until such time has passed that the squad has had a chance to settle together lets be a bit objective with our criticisms. Abusing Carroll, Henderson, Adam 5 games into a new season is not giving those players a sporting chance to succeed. Like the travelling fans at White Hart lane we should be getting behind the players especially the newer ones, not tearing them to pieces every chance we get.

How can you say it is too early? Carrol's been here for over 6 months, Downing's played regurarly in the PL for well over 6-7 seasons plus he cost 20 million for a reason - instant impact, Lucas' been played almost every game for the past 3 seasons but you'd think this was his first game in the PL ever - no development at all. The fact he ain't as crappy as he used to be doesn't make him as good as people for som spurious reason have him to be. Skrtel's been here for what 3 seasons now, a liability then a liability now.

I ain't saying we're crap through and through, just we still carry a lot of deadwood that would never make it into any of the other top-6 team's squads. And as long as we keep on harbouring deadwood Like Lucas and Skrtel and play them regurarly it's gonna be like it's been for the past 2 decades. A good run here and there but never able to challenge for it full stop.

Add to that Kenny wouldn't know his best XI even if it jumped up and bit him in the bottom. I am not sure at all giving underperforming players game time for the sake of it is a good strategy to break back into the top-4. I thought GH and Rafa was conservative when it came to changing the game from the dugout. Unless he finds his best XI and stick with it all this buzzing will yet again prove what we're the true champions of - talking our selves up.

Oh, and btw who said anything about sacking anyone? I realise I probably sound like the pain in the backside I am, but the players and staff have talked them up all summer like we're on level with the big teams. Then we act like boys at the first hurdle. Utterly disappointd at that, and at Kenny's inability/reluctance to turn to plan B when plan A failed. Sorry for the negativity but this defeat will haunt us for a while. Draw Wolves, then defeat agains in-form Everton and the reigning champions and we won't be that much better, or worse, off we were a year ago.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on September 19, 2011, 01:47:54 PM
How can you say it is too early? Carrol's been here for over 6 months, Downing's played regurarly in the PL for well over 6-7 seasons plus he cost 20 million for a reason - instant impact, Lucas' been played almost every game for the past 3 seasons but you'd think this was his first game in the PL ever - no development at all. The fact he ain't as crappy as he used to be doesn't make him as good as people for som spurious reason have him to be. Skrtel's been here for what 3 seasons now, a liability then a liability now.

I ain't saying we're crap through and through, just we still carry a lot of deadwood that would never make it into any of the other top-6 team's squads. And as long as we keep on harbouring deadwood Like Lucas and Skrtel and play them regurarly it's gonna be like it's been for the past 2 decades. A good run here and there but never able to challenge for it full stop.

Add to that Kenny wouldn't know his best XI even if it jumped up and bit him in the bottom. I am not sure at all giving underperforming players game time for the sake of it is a good strategy to break back into the top-4. I thought GH and Rafa was conservative when it came to changing the game from the dugout. Unless he finds his best XI and stick with it all this buzzing will yet again prove what we're the true champions of - talking our selves up.

Oh, and btw who said anything about sacking anyone? I realise I probably sound like the pain in the backside I am, but the players and staff have talked them up all summer like we're on level with the big teams. Then we act like boys at the first hurdle. Utterly disappointd at that, and at Kenny's inability/reluctance to turn to plan B when plan A failed. Sorry for the negativity but this defeat will haunt us for a while. Draw Wolves, then defeat agains in-form Everton and the reigning champions and we won't be that much better, or worse, off we were a year ago.

I say its too early because four of the players that started the game for Liverpool yesterday only just arrived at the club in the summer and two more of the players are only here since january. Two of the substitutes used are also summer additions granted Bellamy has been here before. Clearly we are in a rebuilding phase but fans like yourself expect polished, instantaneous title challengers. Theres nothing wrong with optimism, hell admittedly i was harbouring the thoughts of a title challenge at the start of the season even though I knew it was unrealistic.

There no doubt Carrolls form has been poor, he looks more like a 5 million pound striker at the moment than he does 35 million. Hendersons form has been patchy and Adam looks like he needs to be told to start doing the simple things and to stop forcing his game. But that doesnt mean the players need torrents of abuse about how they are not up to the task of playing for the club when it is so early into their Liverpool careers. When you start doing that you risk sounding like a 'sing when your winning' fan who unless the team wins 37 games a season your not going to be happy.

Your concerns over the more established members of the team are fair game. At least they have had the time to settle in and show what they are capable of. I have never been a Lucas fan but yesterday aside I think he is proving an asset to the team. Skrtel on the other hand I tend to agree on. In his defense hes never a right back but he didnt have the brain capacity not to lunge in on Bale while already being booked. Theres no doubt hes capable of playing at a high level in the game but for me his lapses in concentration mean he will never be good enough to win us the league. But aside from Skrtel I cant see the dead wood your refer to and even then I wouldnt call him dead wood.

In relation to Kenny his performance as manager regarding the team and tactics probably hasnt been as good as it can be. We have the benefit of hindsight so its easy for us to say but I think he possibly has tried to integrate too many players into the team at once while leaving some of the better performers from last season like Maxi out in the cold. Maybe the likes of Henderson should have been made earn his place. Again during yesterdays game I didnt see the point in leaving Carroll on when he was dropping back into midfield, he was too slow to make a big contribution. If anything having two players sent off it probably would have been better to stick him in Spurs box so we could lump balls up to him because there was no way we were going to play them off the park.

So all in all we have some new players trying to settle, we have some settled players not playing all that well, we have had some good performances in the first 5 games and one terrible day. Its probably just about where we reckoned we would be. Nobody said we'd win the league. Nobody said we would win every game. What we need to see is progression but while the teams tranisition takes place all Im saying is that we need to show some patience.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 20, 2011, 12:52:14 AM
Top post, Juan. It never ceases to amaze me how anyone can think you can bring 5+ new players into a team and expect them to gell in less than half a season.
Most of them may have played in the league but none of them have played together so everybody is trying to get used to each other's game and additionally the whole team is trying to adapt to a new way of playing (hopefully).
Even the group that have been at the club a few seasons have not played the style of football we appear to be trying to change to, at least they haven't at this club or together as a group, irrespective of whether they have individually at other clubs or in their national team set-up.

The transitional period won't be just a month or two long and the transition goes far beyond the 90 minutes on the pitch. Foundations are being laid and divisions fused, not least of all amongst the fanbase that had been massively divided over the two previous managers.

I see Dalglish being akin to Cruyff at Barca. Cruyff wasn't fantastically successful, at least not when compared to those who came after him, but his legacy is now well and truly being realised and fulfilled.
Dalglish won't bring us the title, and I have my doubts as to whether he'll see us challenge even, but he'll lay the foundations throughout the whole club, not just the first team, for those who succeed him.

You can't undo 20 years of mismanagement in 12-18 months but solid foundations will be laid on which success will at last have a chance of happening.

Taggart hardly turned the Mancs around in a season and that was before the deluge of £$€ began. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on September 20, 2011, 01:02:13 PM
Good point Tes it took Taggart what 7 seasons to bring the league to OT. Im not saying Kenny needs 7 years but I think it puts things into perspective. Even looking at Man City points to how developing a squad takes time. They didnt have a bad squad under the previous owner. Hughes and Mancini have gone on to spend hundreds of millions in the transfer market, they improved year on year but its only this year that they actually look the real deal and possibly capable of putting in a title challenge (although not guaranteed). Kenny has had 9 months and has spent about 50 million net, we shouldnt be expecting miracles.

As you also rightly point out Tes there is also the style of football Kenny is trying to implement. It takes a certain type of player to be able to adopt the pass and move style of football. We have seen it at times this season, even in last weeks defeat to Stoke. Unfortunatley Sunday everything Kenny had instilled seemed to go out the window.

Im not sure Tes when you say you dont think Kenny can win the league whether you mean this season or ever. I would agree this season is out but I would be far more optimistic about him winning it in the future. In the shorter term I think Kennys got a few big decisions to make. Does he continue to play Carroll or revert him to the bench? Personally I would like to see Carroll start the next 5 or 10 games. He needs minutes on the pitch, he was bought to compliment Suarez and I'd worry for his Liverpool career if hes in and out of the team too much early on. Kenny also needs to make a call on Henderson. Hes not a right winger and hes been played at the expense of the always reliable Kuyt. Downing unfortunately seems to be finding it hard to make an impression. There has been flashes of brilliance but it feels like he hasnt yet settled completely. Brighton itself is going to be a test and probably what we need. They may be lower league opposition but hopefully Brightons start to the championship campaign will sharpen the minds of our players because this game has upset written all over it,

Anyway as I say nows not the time for judging, Kenny and this team deserve the benefit of one full season at least.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on September 20, 2011, 01:20:27 PM
Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

Skrtel being blamed for not being able to mark Bale, is like moaning about a chocolate hot water bottle...i mean really what is he supposed to do? I seem to remember one of the best right backs in the world, Maicon had a nightmare with bale for Inter...skrtel was always on a hiding...stupid though for the lunge..

Surprised to see no kuyt against spurs...
given up on seeing maxi, whats he done?

the main problem is a lack of creativity in midfield and like it or not, with aquilani and merieles gone and maxi not being used for some bizarre reason then come back steven gerrard all is forgiven...sure we could play without him when we had cover with merieles but we sure haven't got cover now....

coates should have a full debut on weds night...
as should maxi
and i'd keep carroll playing too...if he's a confidence player then we have to allow that confidence to grow...shave his hair off and put an implant in...worked for rooney so far this season ((in comparison with last)...

not panic stations or end of the world...
but would like to see a bit more variation and imagination in midfield...

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on September 20, 2011, 01:45:36 PM
Just like the majority of you lot decided Roy was the wrong man after 6 games last season.


well to be fair, the majority of us did follow Roy's advice...he said he should be judged after 10 games and so we did judgeth accordingly...

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 20, 2011, 02:42:40 PM
I remember back in 2002 or was it 2003 when it was blatantly obvious GH not only had us going in the wrong direction, he had lost the plot people were going on about how Fergie needet 7, or was it 6 really, seasons to win the title. Now, that's a one off. For every Fergie there's about 2934 managers who come and go. Also, time was a different commodity back then. They hadn't won it for over 2 decades. They were, by and large a mid-table team. They had time, Kenny don't. 2 more seasons without CL footy and our fall from grace will be complete.

Now, I'm not stubborn or unrealistic enough not to realise it takes sometime to get the lads to gel. At the same time, we spent 20 million on Downing. He's had 7-8 seasons in the PL, if not more. Fair enough he's a human eing who needs more time to gel, but settled or not I think the lack of quality displayed or his inability to have an impact on the game suggest those who said we paid over the top may have got it right. Hope he proves me wrong.

As for the more experienced players people say Lucas is an asset. In exactly what sense of that word? That he use his extensive experience to help the team take back the initiative? That he offers leadership when it's sorely missing? Or that he possess such quality he score goals or set them up? I think he gives the team nothing of this. He's had 3 full seasons as a regular to develop and mature and he's failed. I'm not saying he's worthless or crap, just that he isn't good enough to play as a regular for us. Also, when people say he's so damn good I think they compare with how tragically poor he was up until last season, not how good he is in comparison with the best in the game. That's not how LFC fans used to argue.

As been said, I agree it'll take the bulk of this season to get the players to fully gel. Yet after having spent nearly 100 million since January you would at least have wanted to see a smal sign that says we're on the right path. We've struggled against Fat Bruce the last 4-5 years, we struggled at Britannia since the got promoted and we've struggled heavily to get a result at the WHL the last 3 seasons. I for one said when I saw the fixture these two games will be an early indicator whether we're going places or if it is the same old. It's like if we don't have the urge we become pathetically predictable. Some say we were unlucky against Stoke and I guess it would be wrong to say we were lucky. But was bad luck really the key factor in us losing? Wasn't it our inability to surprise, our inability to play direct footy and our inability to score from rather clearcut chances that cost us dearly. Same yesterday. There's been loads of talk about the bonding, about the familyesque atmosphere. Where was it on Sunday? Nowhere.

The next 3 games will be not only difficult but very much shape our season. 1 draw and two defeats and we'll be under constant pressure making it increasingly difficult to develop and gel. Kenny needs to play his best XI, he needs to give the team a realistic chance to win games. No more playing high priced players for the sake of it. If they're not good enough they shouldn't start no matter their value. I'll keep it shut from here.


 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 20, 2011, 03:50:04 PM
Rather than addressing the present owners, I aim my comments at the fans. 
 
The club sacked Rafa Benitez FOR THIS fare?  We dismissed the best man in the Anfield dugout since Bob Paisley, the man who despite having peanuts to spend, took us to two CL finals in 5 seasons.  The man who kept us in the CL, season after season.  The man who was always competing for the CL.  The man who created wonderful balance in his teams.  The man who totally destroyed, and took the pi.ss out of Man Utd and Real Madrid, in the same week (4-1 in both games).  The man who, given the resources, was building a bastion of invincibility.
 
And our allegedly knowledgable fanbase were brainwashed by the little englander London media into wanting Benitez dismissed.  Hodgson or Dalglish were the answer we were told.  Where the hell are these louts at now.  I want to see their faces.  I want to give them a verbal hiding.  Were they Man Utd supporters in disguise?  Or is their football knowledge limited to some Football Management game on their ibox.
 
 We have spent a king's fortune this year, and yet being out of the title race by the third week of September apparently is not a problem.  Not even competing is apparently not an issue.   
 
Carragher is three years past his sell by date, and yet Kenny said yesterday that there is not one thing he would change about the lad - well how about bloddy pace, technical ability and ball distribution. 
 
Kenny said, prior to Sunday, that he had total confidence in Skitrail, and that the lad could handle the threat of Bale.  Who in their right mind would come out with that madness.  Bale, at his best, is unmarkable.  Skitrail is not known for his pace, nor is he a rightback.  Skitrail is a good lad, but he is a decent centreback who needs a more skilled/dominant colleague alongside him.  Playing him at rightback against Bale was never anything to be remotely confident about. 
 
And the icing on the cake was not playing Kuyt in front of Skitrail, to stifle the Spurs threat down that side.  Absolute madness.  Like I said in here at the time, I went to two websites  to make sure that my eyes were not deceiving me - when I saw Kuyt not in the team lineup.  That is football management 101 class.  Basic stuff. 
 
The Liverpool Way is not about bulls.hitting people.  The Liverpool Way is not about sacking people and bringing in inferior replacements.  The Liverpool Way was rarely ever discussed when we were winning titles.  It gets referred to now all the time by the club when we are never competing for titles.  Let's do our friggen talking ON the pitch, not off it.  The Liverpool Way is about competing at the highest level, for league titles.  The Liverpool Way was correcting issues before fans ever even noticed a problem.  The Liverpool Way was never about endlessly patting oneself on the back, about how great one's summer transfers have been.  I love Rory Smith's columns - but that one the other week about how amazing this summer has been re transfers, was cringeworthy.  We got a lot of poor buys finally moved on, took big losses in many cases (many undisclosed figures for what they moved on for) and somehow this was great.  Apparently potentially recouping 6 or 7 million for Aquilini (having bought him for near 20 million) is good business.  Bizarre.
 
I hear fans say that the new lads need time to bed-in.  Apparently this will take months, perhaps even years.  Well how come Man City have hit the ground running.  Aguero looks a hell of a player.  And we brought in who - ah yes, fukin Carroll.  Andy fukin Carroll.  35 million quid that we might as well have gone and pi.ssed down the drain.  What bright spark at Anfield figured Andy had the technical ability on the ground, and speed, to play at Anfield.  Somebody needs to own up for this.  And to top it all off, the lad is injured when we buy him.  Have we some fetish for paying over the odds for lads who are injured.  Is it masochism, at a football mgt level.  I do not see United, City, Chelsea or Arsenal spending tens of millions on recruits who join the club carrying long term injuries.  Is this part of the new Liverpool Way.  It's a new one on me.
 
Kenny will never compete with Fergie.  He will never compete with Chelsea's riches.  He will rarely outwit Redknapp.  He will rarely outwit Mourinhio (if he returns to england).
 
Sorry for my rant.  I have not cooled down since the Spurs game.  I tried these past few days to think of a worse game, in all my time following the club, and came up short. 
 
That was the worst ever.  It was more a 7 or 8-nil game.  We got off light with only a 4-0 thrashing.
 
And let's not be having the blame the ref, or anybody else, deflection tactic.  At least Houllier only started using that tactic a few years in to his reign.  It's sad when it has started so soon under this new mgt. 
 
The buck stops with you Kenny. 
 
I have faith in the owners.  I have faith in the playing squad (I think we are good enough to compete for the title).  But I have limited faith in Kenny.  At best, with Kenny given a fortune to spend, we will be top  3 or 4.  Maybe can win an FA or League Cup.  Forget about Europe - tactics are nowhere near good enough for that level.
 
But let's keep it simple.  The league title is our bread and butter.  And THAT is the Liverpool Way.
 
Over to you, Kenny.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on September 20, 2011, 05:32:30 PM
Dude the Liverpool Way is also about patience and supporting the team and manager. Kenny is here 9 months and you have already decided hes not the man for the job. Thats about as far from the Liverpool Way as you can get. I'm not having a go Dude but I am just surprised that so many fans have come to such drastic conclusions five games into the season.

I agree with you on Benitez, I never wanted to see him leave. In some ways he was a contributor of his own downfall with the political infighting. Had he learned when to keep his head under the parapit at times maybe he would be still manager today. Sadly hes not but I think Kenny has to be given a chance.  If he fails he fails but at least he should be afforded a reasonable amount of time to show us what he can do.

You have to give the new players a chance aswell. What good will it do anyone if the fans castigate Carroll? Chances are thats not going to help him regain the form that brought him here. So what else do you suggest, sit him in the stands and flog him for half nothing in January? You point to Aguero but for every Aguero you have a Dzecko or even Torres. Both went for huge money, Dzeko struggled up until this season before hitting form and Torres is still struggling. Carroll needs time. If it doesnt work for him then you will be proved right but at least as a Liverpool fan give him the benefit of some time.

Comparing our start to Man Citys is a very dangerous route to go down. Previously you stated that you wouldnt want our ownership to go down the same route as Man Citys. Well then I think its unfair to compare our start with theirs considering the amount they have spent on transfer fees and wages over the last 2-3 years. What we need to do is look at things with a bit of perspective and rationale. There are 5 games gone and we have 7 points. We are two points off 4th, the position everyone agreed was our realistic aim for this season. As long as we continue to improve and as long as our new players start to bed in I dont exactly see where we are as being a disaster right now.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 20, 2011, 06:26:43 PM
Dude makes some good points as do Barticus & Juan, imo.

Bottom line selling Meireles was a Big mistake short term!

I said before the game that the midfield battle was key and we needed to be solid at
right back (These were no-brainers, imo).

So what do we have in midfield, Lucas, Adam & Henderson (Spearing as back-up at the mo).
Neither Adam nor Henderson can tackle imo (I do note here that it took Alonso 2 or 3 seasons
to learn how to tackle effectively). Okay, Lucas can tackle but can be become 3 people and be
everywhere at once? NO!

Tackling out of the way, can Adam and Henderson harry and pressure the opposition effectively
when we don't have the ball. Well, based on the Spurs game, again the answer is NO, imo. Give
him his due, Spearing can do these things...

So can Adam & Henderson retain and distribute the ball away from home (don't even know if Henderson
ever gets the ball, tbh, LOL).

Q.E.D Midfield battle lost...No chance, FORGET IT!

Again to be fair to Adam, I haven't really seen it properly, but I thought he was unlucky with the first yellow card
and really stupid to get the second booking. Are people really surprised by this?? This is his first game
at a massive club away from home to a top side (I'm not including Arsenal in this!). He may or may not adapt
and learn from this...Who knows??

Henderson, what are people expecting here??...He has no experience at a big club and lets be honest very little
actual experience...

So Lucas did his best imo (not his greatest performance, but look what's around him??) and we were outclassed
in midfield by the versatile and experienced Scott Parker and gifted Modric on their home patch.

I accept these facts for what they are...

Is it even worth discussing the right back debacle, ffs, we had NO OPTIONS there and were up against Gareth
Bale away from home.

We started poorly and the midfield and right back issues were instrumental in this, imo.

Compounding our ability to get back into the game we had Agger injured after 20 mins. or something and
Adam sent off after half an hour. Our defence is Skrtel at right back, Carragher (one of the weakest links in the
side at the moment) & Coates (A newbie, barely off the plane) in the centre and Enrique on the left (did his best!).

So what we lacked on the day was any sort of decisiveness or assuredness on the pitch which would certainly
not have been the case if Meireles, Kuyt, Agger, Kelly/Johnson were on the pitch.

Anyway, this post is long enough as is, I'll leave the Kenny & Carroll issues for another day!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 20, 2011, 06:31:17 PM
Does he continue to play Carroll or revert him to the bench? Personally I would like to see Carroll start the next 5 or 10 games. He needs minutes on the pitch, he was bought to compliment Suarez and I'd worry for his Liverpool career if hes in and out of the team too much early on. Kenny also needs to make a call on Henderson. Hes not a right winger and hes been played at the expense of the always reliable Kuyt. Downing unfortunately seems to be finding it hard to make an impression. There has been flashes of brilliance but it feels like he hasnt yet settled completely. Brighton itself is going to be a test and probably what we need. They may be lower league opposition but hopefully Brightons start to the championship campaign will sharpen the minds of our players because this game has upset written all over it,

Anyway as I say nows not the time for judging, Kenny and this team deserve the benefit of one full season at least.

I think the team dynamic changes when Carroll and Suarez play, as opposed to Carroll and Kuyt. I think Downing is more suited to Suarez/Kuyt as we are able to play a more fluid game with more interchange between players and Downing has  this in his game in addition to being an 'out and out' winger.
Maxi needs to be re-introduced at the expense of Henderson. How we line up with a forward four of Suarez, Kuyt, Maxi and Downing is open to opinions.

Alternatively, we have to go with Carroll regardless of form and performance and give him the chance to try to develop and understanding with others around him and them with Carroll.
I think Carroll needs a defined role in the team, which is worked on in training, then everyone knows what's what and who does what and where.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 20, 2011, 08:12:49 PM
Maybe it's just me, but surely when you have an average centre half playing out of position at right back, and especially against the sort of quality Bale possesses, you need to give him some protection, ie Kuyt.

Also, we had a left back instead of a right back on the bench. Why is that a problem? Well, who out of the starting back four is least likely to finish the game? Probably, Agger.
So we move Skrtel back to centre half and bring on Flannagan, and with Kuyt to help him out we'd be less exposed than with out Kuyt.

It's not a case of 'with hindsight etc', but rather a case of simple logic and a touch of foresight, especially as Agger had yet to break down this season.

Bring on Brighton. Get the team right, and let's have a morale boosting victory. We didn't play last mid-week, so no need to rest too many. Also, they've just lost their unbeaten record at the weekend.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 23, 2011, 06:08:34 PM
I'm not gonna argue tes, you don't have a point. At the same time, and after a summer where the players qued up to any journo willing to listen to how good our squad is and how Melwood is buzzing, it's also fair to ask: How do we judge progress or the lack of it. Some say it's early, and maybe it is. But how long before it becomes a truism in itself? Some say it's a transitional phase. Yes it is, but how long is such a phase? 6 months? 18 months? 3 seasons? Some say the players need to settle in. Word,  I say. But how long before the players aren't so new anymore?

I for one, and as I said above thought when I saw the fixture list in June the Stoke and Spurs games will be a good indicator whether we're going places since we've struggled at those places in recent years. As it turned out we lost both, albeit in two quite different ways. But does it really say in the history books how you lost a game? Doesn't it just tell how many games a team lost? Isn't there a saying the table never lies?

I'm not asking for instant success, I'm just asking for signs of improvement and there's none to be seen to be honest. We were always good when inspired, just like Bolton, Everton, Villa or Fulham. I wan't us to go on a 12 game unbeaten streak. Then and only then I'll admit we're going places. Other than that it's the same old it's been for the past 12 years. If we don't 4th will be beyond us and the pressure will mount even more.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 23, 2011, 10:34:03 PM
Surprise surprise!! Another post filled with optimism from Martin. But don't worry folks, he only sends them when the day end with a 'y'.

Let's have some predictions for tomorrow's game against Wolves. I, the eternal optimist, predict 2-0.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 23, 2011, 11:22:44 PM
Let's have some predictions for tomorrow's game against Wolves. I, the eternal optimist, predict 2-0.

Predict the line-up! some bloke over at Goal has been musing over where Stevie G fits in to all this:

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2011/09/23/2678760/liverpools-midfield-conundrum-how-does-steven-gerrard-fit

Regards the score, no disrespect to Wolves but, I think they may have caught us on the wrong day!

Surprise surprise!! Another post filled with optimism from Martin. But don't worry folks, he only sends them when the day end with a 'y'.

Maybe he should watch KDs interview where he discusses SUPPORTERS!

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/video/interview/9768-free-exclusive-kenny-interview
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 24, 2011, 06:21:46 AM
if I had to pick a team to meet right now (in our present depressed state), I'd say wolves, swansea or blackburn.

I have a lot of respect for mick mccarthy....top bloke.....BUT

we should AT LEAST win by two clear goals - *but* if Bellamy, Suarez and Kuyt start, then the wolves might flee Anfield with their tail firmly between their legs - after a 4 or 5 goal drubbing.


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 24, 2011, 11:14:40 AM
Surprise surprise!! Another post filled with optimism from Martin. But don't worry folks, he only sends them when the day end with a 'y'.

Let's have some predictions for tomorrow's game against Wolves. I, the eternal optimist, predict 2-0.

Surprise surprise!! Another post filled with anti-intellectual drivel from ASI. I don't think it pertains to negativity to ask questions about how improvement and progressions is to be measured, percieved or judged? Don't be so gutless.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 24, 2011, 11:32:47 AM
Surprise surprise!! Another post filled with anti-intellectual drivel from ASI. I don't think it pertains to negativity to ask questions about how improvement and progressions is to be measured, percieved or judged? Don't be so gutless.

So what's your prediction for the game Martin? Another poor performance must surely be on the cards. Wolves to do us 1-0?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 24, 2011, 11:49:06 AM
I'm not gonna argue tes, you don't have a point. At the same time, and after a summer where the players qued up to any journo willing to listen to how good our squad is and how Melwood is buzzing, it's also fair to ask: How do we judge progress or the lack of it. Some say it's early, and maybe it is. But how long before it becomes a truism in itself? Some say it's a transitional phase. Yes it is, but how long is such a phase? 6 months? 18 months? 3 seasons? Some say the players need to settle in. Word,  I say. But how long before the players aren't so new anymore?

I for one, and as I said above thought when I saw the fixture list in June the Stoke and Spurs games will be a good indicator whether we're going places since we've struggled at those places in recent years. As it turned out we lost both, albeit in two quite different ways. But does it really say in the history books how you lost a game? Doesn't it just tell how many games a team lost? Isn't there a saying the table never lies?

I'm not asking for instant success, I'm just asking for signs of improvement and there's none to be seen to be honest. We were always good when inspired, just like Bolton, Everton, Villa or Fulham. I wan't us to go on a 12 game unbeaten streak. Then and only then I'll admit we're going places. Other than that it's the same old it's been for the past 12 years. If we don't 4th will be beyond us and the pressure will mount even more.

Martin, you make interesting points with your questions as to how to quantify certain aspects of the squad.

What are your opinions/answers to the questions you've posed?

I think it becomes more difficult for a large number of new players to gel when the team or the core of the squad the manager would ideally regularly use has the initial bedding in period disrupted with injuries. You lose continuity, personnel have to be changed and maybe the tactics altered slightly depending on the personnel changes.
This lack of flow is going to make it more difficult for such a large number of new players to acclimatise quickly.
Ideally, I'd say the maximum amount of new introductions to a standard first eleven you'd want to make would be three. Conservatively, we've made 5. Then we've had the additional injury problems at right back.
That doesn't include Andy Carroll and his lack of appearances since signing for us, and he also represents the point of changing tactics if you change personnel.

I know it seems like we've had many new dawns that have proven to be false or underwhelming, and patience is not an inexhaustable commodity, but it's all we have to give as fans - that, and our support. That doesn't mean we don't see the problems or gloss over them, but support must be given despite, and even because of them.

As for today, the performance is more important than the amount we win by. We need to win. No argument about it, but win need to start putting in a more constant level of performance and getting the style of play established and then perfected.
4-4-2 is not the way. 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 with better interchange between the front 3 or 4, with improved support from midfield.  The midfield also need to keep possession better. If it means short passes, then so what. And more patience when in possession is also needed.
Also, we need to close down more quickly and press much higher up the pitch. The way we used to 'squeeze' the opposition in Rafa's first two seasons. The higher up the pitch we pressurise, the nearer the opposition's goal we win the ball back and the further away from our goal we keep them.
It's obvious, I know, but still....................   
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 24, 2011, 03:53:37 PM
Liverpool v Wolves
Sept 24, 2011

half time, 2-0

Suarez is the difference in the two teams.  Thank goodness we have the little Uruguayan in our team.  He is a little magician.

Our performance mirrors every other performance this season to date - very industrious looking, but essentially organised chaos.  Depressing inability to retain the ball.  Depressing to see so much hoof it in the air strategy.  I do not like the way we play when Carroll is in the team.  Why have lovely technical players, like Maxi, Downing, Suarez and Adam, when we have Carra and Carroll to always lower the common denominator to hoof-it football.  Skitrail needs to be told to stop diving in.

Apart from the world class Suarez, there is very little between the two teams. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 24, 2011, 04:11:50 PM
Liverpool v Wolves
Sept 24, 2011

half time, 2-0

Suarez is the difference in the two teams.  Thank goodness we have the little Uruguayan in our team.  He is a little magician.

Our performance mirrors every other performance this season to date - very industrious looking, but essentially organised chaos.  Depressing inability to retain the ball.  Depressing to see so much hoof it in the air strategy.  I do not like the way we play when Carroll is in the team.  Why have lovely technical players, like Maxi, Downing, Suarez and Adam, when we have Carra and Carroll to always lower the common denominator to hoof-it football.  Skitrail needs to be told to stop diving in.

Apart from the world class Suarez, there is very little between the two teams.

LFC, sponsored by prozac.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 24, 2011, 04:15:35 PM
LFC, sponsored by prozac.

2-1 now

wolves are dangerous.

I hope more prozac isn't necessary by 5 o'çlock.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 24, 2011, 04:22:49 PM
2-1 now

wolves are dangerous.

I hope more prozac isn't necessary by 5 o'çlock.

What, with our centre half pairing?  :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 24, 2011, 04:29:41 PM
It's quite depressing that we cannot keep clean sheets especially against the lesser sides. More investment required in January.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 24, 2011, 04:34:31 PM
What, with our centre half pairing?  :D

 :D

thing is, at least with keegan's sides, you get goals when you are THAT offence-minded.

but with kenny's side, all that going forward industry yields so few clear chances.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 24, 2011, 04:37:42 PM
It's quite depressing that we cannot keep clean sheets especially against the lesser sides. More investment required in January.

agreed, ASI re depressing.

I reckon you are starting to see the light.  This stuff we are watching is pure chaos.  I said earlier it is organised chaos.  But I will reclassify it as CHAOS, there is very little organised about it.

The problem is in the dugout.  We have loads of talent in the team and on the bench.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 24, 2011, 04:52:24 PM
Dude,

I'm not watching. I'm listening on BBC Radio. So I don't know who (if anyone) was culpable for the goal. I do get annoyed when Kuyt is dropped because he's one of our more influential players.

Anyway, we've won 2-1 but not the perfomance I was hoping for. I suppose Kenny is being very careful with Gerrard but I think he could have played 45 mins today.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 24, 2011, 04:54:15 PM
When were playing with a more fluid formation at the end of last season it certainly looked promising, but now we seem to be more rigid and have lost all that fluidity and fluency we were starting to look like we were developing.
It's starting to look a bit like Dalglish's Newcastle.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 24, 2011, 04:58:24 PM
Dude,

I'm not watching. I'm listening on BBC Radio. So I don't know who (if anyone) was culpable for the goal. I do get annoyed when Kuyt is dropped because he's one of our more influential players.

Anyway, we've won 2-1 but not the perfomance I was hoping for. I suppose Kenny is being very careful with Gerrard but I think he could have played 45 mins today.

ASI, pure chaos, we were hanging on across parts of that second half.

wolves should have played 4-4-2 from the start...because when he changed to 4-4-2 in the second half, they caused us loads of problems.

I think Kenny should step aside ASAP.   

His role, as I have always said, should have been Worldwide Ambassador for the club - like the bobby charlton role at united.


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 24, 2011, 05:03:26 PM
When were playing with a more fluid formation at the end of last season it certainly looked promising, but now we seem to be more rigid and have lost all that fluidity and fluency we were starting to look like we were developing.
It's starting to look a bit like Dalglish's Newcastle.

and Dalglish's Blackburn (remember they were an awful team to watch too - with Batty in the middle).

Kenny doesn't have it - sorry to say that, because I love the bloke.  But truthfully, he never did have it. 

The key aspect in a team is balance.  Kenny never mastered that. 

Nor has he ever been a team builder.  He doesn't have the skill.

Hell, from the first game on, I saw all sorts of issues - some major, but loads of minor ones too.  And none of these issues ever get dealt with.

Some day I might make a post listing all the quibbles (many would be easy to fix, with a word in the ear).
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 24, 2011, 05:18:24 PM
The problem, Dude, remains the same as it did last January and in the Summer. Who is available?

Off the top of my head I can only really think of Ancellotti. I know there's another name you'll put forward, but I think that would be just too divisive at the moment.

Still, we've halted the losing run and we're in touch with fourth.

What's Roy Evans doing nowadays? Maybe another old, experienced head could help Kenny. Evans' team were a joy to watch going forward, though equally poor defensively.
We need to drop the apparent 4-4-2 and go back to post January and try to pick up where we left off last, with the exception of the last two games.
Surely Maxi deserves consideration now.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 24, 2011, 05:56:00 PM
ASI, pure chaos, we were hanging on across parts of that second half.

wolves should have played 4-4-2 from the start...because when he changed to 4-4-2 in the second half, they caused us loads of problems.

I think Kenny should step aside ASAP.   

His role, as I have always said, should have been Worldwide Ambassador for the club - like the bobby charlton role at united.

 :o Aren't you overreacting a bit Dude? Surely if he never had the skills we wouldn't have recovered so well last season?

It's never going to happen until this season is over so let's see how we get on against sterner opposition in the next 2 games.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 24, 2011, 05:58:20 PM
The problem, Dude, remains the same as it did last January and in the Summer. Who is available?

Off the top of my head I can only really think of Ancellotti. I know there's another name you'll put forward, but I think that would be just too divisive at the moment.

Still, we've halted the losing run and we're in touch with fourth.

What's Roy Evans doing nowadays? Maybe another old, experienced head could help Kenny. Evans' team were a joy to watch going forward, though equally poor defensively.
We need to drop the apparent 4-4-2 and go back to post January and try to pick up where we left off last, with the exception of the last two games.
Surely Maxi deserves consideration now.

funny you should mention Roy Evans.  I said it many times, that Roy would be the best of that old generation. Indeed, I often wondered why his name was never mentioned.....must have been hurtful for Roy, not to have ever even got a mention among fans, and in the media.  The Kenny media circus, this past 18 months, has overshadowed everything/one else.
 
You know my thinking - Rafa would be my first choice (with Kenny as club ambassador).  But he would need to be given firm and private reminders beforehand - to keep out of club politics.
 
Yes, Maxi should be playing.  Mereless should never have been sold.  Stunning stupidity.  And I never believed the club line on that issue.
 
I'd look at my best team.....and Carroll would not be in it.  But Kenny will not have the courage I bet, to do it the Liverpool Way and play his best team.  The politics of not looking a 35 million quid fool by not deploying Carroll from the start of games, will be too much for Kenny. 
 
And Kenny is not big enough to do it the Liverpool Way re Carragher.  Jamie is three years past his sell by date.....and yet Kenny refuses to play his strongest team.  He insists on Carra being in his defence (despite costly mistakes in nearly every game - bolton, stoke, brighton.  We have to play far far too deep - and that is primarily due to Carra's lack of speed. 
 
Kenny is not doing it the Liverpool Way.  He talks the talk, but is found wanting when it comes to doing the walk.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 24, 2011, 06:08:17 PM
:o Aren't you overreacting a bit Dude? Surely if he never had the skills we wouldn't have recovered so well last season?

It's never going to happen until this season is over so let's see how we get on against sterner opposition in the next 2 games.

ASI, it's one thing being a top 4 or top 6 manager, it;s quite another competing with the Fergies of this world for titles.

To win titles, we have to turn over teams like sunderland, stoke and wolves with plenty to spare.  We ar enot doing that.  I have no issues with patience to bed in players.  but this is not about bedding in...this is about chaos.  There is no rhyme nor reason to our play.  It is a blitzkreig of chaos.   For sections of the second half, Wolves had us backed into our own box.....carroll was even having to help in the 6 yard box.  In the offence, we were a toothless tiger.  At one point, we had a break on - four reds against a single wolf....and guess what, we fecked it up (as usual).

this time last year, I said repeatedly that Kenny was not the answer - fine for a caretaker, but nothing more.

I saw enough of him first time round at anfield...I saw enough of his disjointed blackburn team....and I saw enough of his clumsy ill-fitting unbalanced newcastle side.  Kenny is not good enough. 

We do not need another 5 year plan.  We have a  top group of players already.  We need a top notch boss in the dugout to bring some organisation to this chaos.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 24, 2011, 08:48:22 PM
Thank God it was Wolves or we'd lost a 3rd successive game no thanks to yet another confusing and spurious starting line-up. The team that started today will need something really extraordinary to get anything from the two coming games.

Fair enough if Kenny's playing Henderson and Carrol for future rewards, but couldn't he be more open about it? We were outplayed for long periods of game, panicking, struggling to string 3 passes together. We look as disjointed and confused as we ever did under GH, Rafa and Hodgson. Carrol looks like a donkey, Henderson like a puppy and Downing like a parrot. I don't mean to be condescending but it's hard to put it any other way. It must be really frustrating for Kuijt and Bellamy to be denied a start at the expense of poorer players who doesn't perform regardless of the number of opportunities. THAT will not make the squad gel over time, quite the other way round. We're as much a one-man team as we ever were. There's no team in Suarez. He can only win us so many games. Also, Carra and Skrtel are criminally poor and needs replacing ASAP.

This time Kenny got away, he won't do it against the Blues and the Mancs if he pick his team as badly as he did the last 2 games.  Pleased with the points, hardly so with a scrappy and disjointed performance at home against a side who struggled for relegation less than 5 months ago.

Happy to see Gerrard back. Always thrilling to watch Suarez and Enrique had another solid game (no gelling time required there apparently).
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on September 24, 2011, 09:00:16 PM
Not a good performance. The game was far too open, we didnt close it out when we had the chances to do so. I still have every faith Kenny knows what hes doing and it will only be a matter of time before we click. Six games in and im satisfied with what im seeing. Its nowhere near our potential but who peaks in september. I dont think the table makes for bad reading.

1   Man Utd   6   16
2   Man City   6   16
3   Chelsea   6   13
4   Newcastle   6   12
5   Liverpool   6   10
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 24, 2011, 11:04:22 PM
ASI, it's one thing being a top 4 or top 6 manager, it;s quite another competing with the Fergies of this world for titles.
Dude, for this season the owners wanted to finish in the top 4 so I'm happy if we do that. No-one's talking about competing for the title.

Quote
To win titles, we have to turn over teams like sunderland, stoke and wolves with plenty to spare.  We ar enot doing that.  I have no issues with patience to bed in players.  but this is not about bedding in...this is about chaos.  There is no rhyme nor reason to our play.  It is a blitzkreig of chaos.   For sections of the second half, Wolves had us backed into our own box.....carroll was even having to help in the 6 yard box.  In the offence, we were a toothless tiger.  At one point, we had a break on - four reds against a single wolf....and guess what, we fecked it up (as usual).
Actually we don't need to turn them over. We just need the 3 pts. Stoke are no pushover as today proved. And if I remember correctly Rush and Torres used to help out defending so I don't have a problem with that. I haven't seen the game yet and even highlights won't show the chaos as you describe it.

Actually, after a horrendous peformance last Sunday I'm just pleased the players showed enough spirit and determination to win today when their confidence must have been low and the pressure substantial.

Quote
this time last year, I said repeatedly that Kenny was not the answer - fine for a caretaker, but nothing more.

I saw enough of him first time round at anfield...I saw enough of his disjointed blackburn team....and I saw enough of his clumsy ill-fitting unbalanced newcastle side.  Kenny is not good enough. 

We do not need another 5 year plan.  We have a  top group of players already.  We need a top notch boss in the dugout to bring some organisation to this chaos.
We're all entitled to our opinions. Yours really surprises me. I'm prepared to give the guy a reasonable spell to prove his worth. Surely THAT's the Liverpool Way. Not to dismiss someone who has a win % of over 60% since he joined last Jan.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 24, 2011, 11:19:16 PM
Very Happy with the result today and there was enough in the performance
to suggest improvement to come down the line!

My big problem was starting with Hendersson on the right...Unless I'm missing something
he gave us very little imo. I don't necessarily have a problem with the player, by all accounts
the right is NOT his position. I've said it before about the Spurs game and it's Liverpool 101
when we don't have possession we need to harry and pressure the opposition! With Kelly just
back and Jarvis giving him a good contest down the left it F****d up our whole balance because
Lucas had to keep coming across to help Kelly, leaving gaps in the centre.

Straight away when Kuyt came on he was in the thick of it getting stuck in upfield! Scratching my
head and almost tearing my hair out over this one!

Anyway, lots of positives, imo, delighted to see Stevie G back (sorry, Dude, we really need him at
the mo!). Our strength down the left is also very impressive. Carroll FINALLY looked like he's found
some energy! 

It's not perfect, we started poorly again (giving away a lot of stupid free kicks). If we can just be solid
and grind out a few results over the next couple of games, I'm happy enough. Hopefully, Carra can get
some sort of rhythm going (he'll say different but, at his age, he must dread the start of each new season)
and if not we can make up for it with some devastating attacking!
 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 24, 2011, 11:41:53 PM
I've just watched highlights on MoTD and I thought we looked okay compared to the shambles of last weekend. Suarez was close to a tap in from a Carroll cross in the 1st half and was denied a second with a briliant point-blank save in the second. Carroll hit the post with a good header and if both those chances had gone in it would have been 4-1. Wolves may have had a lot of possession in the 2nd half but they don't seem to have worried Pepe apart from the one goal.

On such small differences games can look difficult or a walk in the park. Happy with Carroll today and Suarez scoring was another positive.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on September 24, 2011, 11:53:48 PM
I'm prepared to give the guy a reasonable spell to prove his worth. Surely THAT's the Liverpool Way. Not to dismiss someone who has a win % of over 60% since he joined last Jan.

I was reading this weekend that Kenny's win record, since his return, is just over 53 percent.  Rafa's was 55 percent and we sacked him.

ASI, I know enough about Kenny's record first time round, his time at Blackburn, and his time at Newcastle.  And I predicted this time last year, the likely outcome should he be appointed to the hotseat. 

The bloke (and as a player and a decent human being I love him dearly) is just not good enough.  He cannot change games.  He cannot create balanced teams.  He cannot build teams.  His short term success was based on having Paisley at his side for the first two years at Anfield....and being able to dominate the market with Jack Walker's money, when at Blackburn.    On an even playing field, he is average at best.

If we want to finish top 6, then 112 million quid might be enough for Kenny to realise that ambition.  But I have to imagine our owners will not be content with that return.



Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on September 25, 2011, 02:27:33 AM
Dude you are doing Kenny a disservice in relation to his first spell as Liverpool manager and in relation to his time at Blackburn. He may have inherited a very good team at Liverpool in the eighties but he also made a huge contribution as manager. He rejuvinated the team by signing the likes of Aldridge, Beardsley and Barnes. He was a born winner, had it not been for the stress of Hilsborough we would probably be looking toward title number 30 now. The way you undermine his managerial achievements at the club is shocking. Was Joe Fagan a bad manager just because he inherited Paisleys side but went on to win trophies?

Its kind of like your issue with Gerrard. Because Gerrards a Kop idol , because you dont like him as a person off the field you discredit the fact that he has been the heartbeat of Liverpool for the best part of 10 years now. You deny what hes done for the club. In the same way its almost as if because Kenny is still so reveered to the point he can do no wrong with some fans that you refuse to give him any kudos. Hes in the job 9 months, what more can you ask for. I accept you have your opinions on what you believe is his lack of tactical nous but personally I think you have been too rash in coming to your conclusion on the man. What hope has any manager got when fans turn previous managerial successes into negatives against them.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 25, 2011, 03:50:31 AM
Agreed, Juan...Dalglish is there to get us 4th. Back in the Champions League is the
NUMBER 1 PRIORITY!! Spurs and Arsenal are our main rivals this season and it's
important, imo, not to lose sight of this.

A cup is certainly possible & that's why we also need to take shine-a-light like the Carling thing
seriously (so, hey, it was a good week in both these respects after the set-back at Spurs!)

Sure maybe if we had a bit more depth and experience we could realistically talk about
the title.

I'm not saying I slavishly agree with everything KD does...selling Meireles cost us valuable points
and the persistence with starting Henderson in place of Kuyt is plain baffling imo. Gerrard is
back now and that will hopefully help solve both those issues.

On the plus side, the left side is looking good at mo with Enrique & Downing and Carroll today
looked to have turned a corner, meantime Suarez is a gem. Adam & Henderson are works in progress
and that is to be expected. Belllamy may gives us something extra as well, (Young Coates is waiting
in the wings to bolster the options in the centre) So decisions have been taken and that's what it's
about at this point of the rebuild.

The team isn't perfect but is definitely possible to look up and see progress and when I see Lucas
track back the length of the pitch in the 92nd minute and break up an attack Ican't help but
be optimistic about things!

Glass half full!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 25, 2011, 10:00:21 AM
Dude,

I'm afraid I cannot agree with anything you have written and I back Juan and Ed in their assessment of both Kenny and the team. I will just say this though. Imagine if Rafa was in charge of the kitty and player decisions. Do you imagine he would have bought Suarez, Enrique and Downing? Would the likes of Flanagan and Robinson been given a chance in the first team?

The answer has to be no in both cases. Rafa had an appalling record of bringing through the youngsters as much as I like him as a person. Rafa did buy some good players but he also bought some shocking ones. It's too early to decide if Kenny and Damian have bought any pups but even if they had it's something that happens at any club.

Give the man a chance.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 25, 2011, 10:55:06 AM
Rafa's flaws as manager will always be shadowed by the leadership, or lack of it, by G & H. For all their shortcomings and personal greed, it wasn't their fault Rafa was a total disaster in the transfer market slowly draining this club not only financially but also in terms of continuity and stability.

I don't think anyone's shouting for Kenny's head. I think he deserve this season at least before such calls should be made, just like Roy deserved it but never got it by the hypocrits that are the fanbase of this club. But there are questionmarks already over whether he's on the right path. Playing out-of-form-and-out-of-contributing players like Henderson and Carrol game after game at the expense of better and hungrier players like Kuijt and Bellamy while, at the same time, our performances are average at best will NOT see the players gel. It is increcible really he doesn't chose to use the experience he has and THEN let the new players slowly fit in. Now it's the other way round and it'll prove, I'm afraid, a disastrous decision.

Another 2 defeats and we're once again out of it in early October. Mind, I never thought we had a realistic chance to win the title. But it must be hard for the players to honestly believe themselves they belong to a top club when every year 7 months of the season is spent looking from a descendant position at the battle for the top places rather than being involved in it themselves. I don't think Kenny understand the significance of being within range for as long as possible, it's more important to prove to the world that Henderson and Carrol was worth 55 million. That's where I think he got it wrong.

If we end up pointless against the Blues and the Mancs I dread to think what'll happen during our "easy" spell before the Chelsea away game on November 20th with the squad probably quite unsettled. I'm not saying it'll happen, I'm saying the team that started against Spurs and Wolves will struggle heavily and need something extraordinary to get something from the two upcoming games.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Edward224 on September 25, 2011, 01:38:17 PM
Martin why don't you grow a pair?!

Out of it in October? Excuse fornicating me but we are 6 points behind both manc clubs and if we beat manure in 2 weeks we will be 3 points behind them, assuming we both win next week. NOT that I expect a title challenge, I do not.

Carroll had one of his best games for us yesterday, his passing was better, his positioning was better and he improved from last week certainly.

Henderson looks a little lost of course, but ask yourself why Kenny is starting him each week. Please ask yourself and tell me............




I will tell you why, because he is slowly integrating Henderson into the team which benefit us for YEARS, not days, not weeks, not months BUT YEARS.

Kuyt is better than Henderson definitely, however Henderson's raw ability is better than Kuyt's raw ability for that right hand side and if Kenny and the rest of the coaching staff  can develop Henderson's game then all the better for us. Henderson has the height and pace to make that position his own for us in future years. His passing can be excellent and his positioning, at least for Sunderland last season, was superb.

Henderson has taken a huge leap forward and it will take time for him to settle and to improve. I do think Kuyt should start in the Derby, however only because of his experience in such games.

Carroll is an investment for the future if you cannot see that then what can I say. It was not his fault that he cost £35m, so us supporters should not judge him based on what he cost, but what he can bring to the team. Carroll is a freaking monster of a player. He is strong, tough, quick and has a magnificent left foot. Yet he has never truly played for us being 100% fit and in form. He needs games to get into form and he will deliver.

Such how you can judge any player, let alone 2 clearly talented players like Henderson and Carroll so early in their careers as professionals and with us beggars belief.

And let us dissect the games we lost. First of all Stoke City. If you saw the game you would have seen us totally dominating them, our first half performance was probably our best this season. We should have have a penalty and we missed an open goal. So an unfortunate loss.

The Spurs game we were totally out played and from the first 5 mins I knew we'd lose because Spurs were the ones setting the tempo and we looked half a sleep plus we had bloody Skrtel at right back. So it was a deserved loss, however we shouldn't dwell on it and we should go forward.

And as for us being totally not near 4th at the end of the season, well I want you to explain to me why you think this, considering the following.

Our competitors for 4th are Arsenal and Spurs. Are both teams that much better than us? No. Are both teams more consistent than us? No. Will both teams go on 12 games unbeaten runs like you so claim one should do to claim a top 4 place? I'd bet my mortgage neither us 3 teams will go 12 games unbeaten during this season. It won't happen. Only 2 teams can do it imo and that is both the manc clubs.

Personally I don't think we can get 4th place............I think we can get 3rd place. Honestly I don't see Chelsea as that much better than us.

You also have to remember where we have come from. We were at the abyss staring down the black hole going into administration and we could never recover from. Arsenal and Spurs were and are on both good financial footing and have better squads at that time. We've had to go through a longer period of turnover to compete with those 2 clubs for a CL place and as such really Arsenal and Spurs should be miles ahead of us, it is a credit to the management team that we are not.

Oh and btw I saw that snide remark regarding Rafa and G&H.

Your sniggering faith in G&H over Rafa disgusts me. That you have sympathy for G&H over Rafa personally disgusts me because no matter your opinions on Rafa, G&H nearly killed our club and that you don't realise it is simply shocking.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 25, 2011, 01:56:43 PM
Ed, no doubt your reading a lot into my previous post there's no substance for. I never said I had sympathy for G&H, for the simple reason I like any person could see they were a peril to this club's existence. What I did say, however, was that the danger G&H posed to this club, masked Rafa's constant failure in the transfer market. You can do better than that surely.

As for my questioning of Kenny's decision to play Henderson and Carrol I think it's just a matter of opinion how you win success. Unlike you I believe it is wrong to play players for the sake of it, in the hope they'll gel, develop what have you into superstars all of a sudden lifting this club to championship glory. It's a nice thought but I think you'll struggle to find many examples in history that support that theory. Quite the other way round, my theory is that what will really help Henderson and Carrol to settle in and develop into the players they're hoped to be is to have a winning side, a harmonious and comfortable side. Then it makes sense to help the new and younger players get into the team and also providing them with a real chance. As it is, Carrol needs to start scoring now or the media will haunt him even more, meaning the pressure will grow by every game to such extent it may in effect halt his development. Can't you see that? Can't you see both Henderson and Carrol are both empty on confidence? Isn't it better in such a situation to use the more experienced players to build a winning culture that Henderson and Carrol is part of? I fear playing Carrol and Henderson may thwart whatever potential they had.

You say we're only 6 points behind the Mancs. Yeah, very good if today was march 15 or something. My point is that based on our last 2 performances there's little or nothing to suggest we could win our next two games if we keep our starting line-up unchanged. If you think differently that's fine by me.

Please make an effort to try to understand what I say.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 25, 2011, 02:04:06 PM
Another 2 defeats and we're once again out of it in early October. Mind, I never thought we had a realistic chance to win the title.
None of us thought we had a chance of winning the title this season but the club just take one game at a time.

You really do invite criticism when you come out with such rubbish. We're 2 points behind 4th placed Newcastle and 6pts behind the leaders but you already have us 'out of it'. Even a Manure supporter wouldn't make such a stupid comment.  >:(

Your comments beggar belief for a supposed Liverpool fan. I still retain doubts you are when you continue to spell Kuyt's name incorrectly.  ::)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 25, 2011, 02:13:41 PM
That's because I spell his name in Dutch. Stupid me.

But if we lose against the Blues away and the Mancs at home, which I find likely if Kenny keep his starting line-up from the last two games unchanged we WILL in effect be out of it. As I said above I never thought we'd stand a realistic chance to win it this year. That's not the point, the point is what it does to a squad's selfperception to be hopelessly left behind in early October year after year pretty much as Bolton, Villa, Stoke etc. Can't you see that? Is it beyond you we need to play at our maximum with our strongst XI to win the next two games? You don't need to like me, but your tideous rants about my support, or lack of it, because I don't share your uncritical and anti-intellectual Tomkinesque view on footy really starts to get tiresome.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 25, 2011, 02:24:42 PM
The problem I have with your comments Martin is that they are always negative. You say "if we lose against the Blues and Mancs" but why can't you think more positively and at least hope LFC could win those games? Any supporter would think that way but you seem to be the exception. That's why I get annoyed with you. Can you understand that?

Your suggestion that we should play our strongest side means the players who aren't picked would never get a decent run and would therefore never improve. Carroll - by popular perception both here and by UK journalists - had a decent game. Why can't you just occasionally see something good instead of this incessant negativity? It's extremely annoying that you don't see things in a balanced way.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 25, 2011, 02:38:03 PM
The problem I have with your comments Martin is that they are always negative. You say "if we lose against the Blues and Mancs" but why can't you think more positively and at least hope LFC could win those games? Any supporter would think that way but you seem to be the exception. That's why I get annoyed with you. Can you understand that?

Your suggestion that we should play our strongest side means the players who aren't picked would never get a decent run and would therefore never improve. Carroll - by popular perception both here and by UK journalists - had a decent game. Why can't you just occasionally see something good instead of this incessant negativity? It's extremely annoying that you don't see things in a balanced way.

This is where we differ, ASI. Your wish, desire, hope we'll win our next two games is no bigger than mine. Nothing would make me happier than if we did. But I also feel a need to be honest. Being honest means I need to look at our last two performances and make a conclusion what's the most plausible outcome if we continue to play the same side. No matter what I FEEL, HOPE or DESIRE my HONEST opinion is that it'll take something out of the extraordinary to get something from those games. Is that being negative or is it making an honest analysis? You decide. What's the point in having such a forum if we're only allowed to share our feelings, hopes and desires? What's wrong with trying to make an honest analysis of where our beloved club is and where we think it is going.

You say Carrol had a decent game according to UK journos. I saw the game and he had his momenst but he also looked slow, out of pace and sharpness and out of confidence. And this was against a side fighting to stay up less than 5 months ago, not an Everton side with all the energy that comes with a derby or the best defence in the country that is ManU.

I'm not negative for the sake of it.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 25, 2011, 05:14:44 PM
I feel no need to be honest because I don't have to convince anyone of anything. If we win and play well I'm happy. If we win and are a bit lucky then fine. I've lost count of the number of times other teams have done that. If we lose but play well I take solace from the fact that we were unlucky. if we play poorly and lose (like last Sunday) then I'm annoyed. I accept that Kenny  does what he thinks is best for the team and club. I don't analyse things to death like some here may do.

Whilst you have the advantage over me in that you see more televised games you see things differently quite often. That's your privilege. You see a 50% full glas as half-empty, I see it as half-full when it comes to Liverpool. I will always try to see things in the best light because it's in my nature to.

If, as you say, you think Carroll is lacking confidence how do you suggest Kenny tackles that? By dropping him? That would undo any progress already made. He needs games and that's why Kenny is persisting with him when Kuyt is probably more deserving of a game. It's about looking at the long-term, not the short term as Ed alluded to.

I'm not going to speculate about how we will perform against Everton and Manure but if we should win either I look forward to hearing your views on how well we played.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 25, 2011, 07:32:20 PM
Henderson looks a little lost of course, but ask yourself why Kenny is starting him each week. Please ask yourself and tell me............
I hope the reason that Kenny is starting him is because he has earned the right to wear the
shirt over the course of the weeks training. LFC, first and foremost is in the business of winning
football games!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on September 25, 2011, 07:37:36 PM
But you see, this is where you get it so wrong. This ain't a sport for individuals, it's a team sport. Collective over individuals, period! If Andy Carrol's low on confidence, then he's low on confidence. Play another player who's not so inexperienced or limited. Do what's best for the team, play the team with the most likely chance to win a game. That's the only way to produce a culture, an atmosphere in which Carrol's confidence has a genuine chance to grow back. Is it worth taking a chance Carrol and Henderson may come good in an indefinitive future for missing out on 4th yet again? That's in effect what you're saying mate, and you call into question my support for this club. That's a tad rich, to be honest. If he can't take being dropped for a game or 5 then you really got to ask the question what be paid for.

If we're not supposed to analyse and try to understand our teams fortunes and mishaps, then what's the point coming here. Hell, what's the point in watching at all?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on September 25, 2011, 08:38:02 PM
Martin,

I haven't got the energy to continue this conversation any longer. Get one of the others to engage in the debate.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 26, 2011, 12:20:11 AM
Henderson and Carroll are a perfect example of why there needs to be a re-vamp of the whole reserve team football concept in this country.
Two young players, both left their hometown clubs, both could have stayed and would have become (if they weren't already) hometown heroes.
They would benefit from taking the massive step up, with all it entails, to a big club, by playing reserve team football, where there's less pressure but where they'd learn all about what it takes to be at a big club.

They'd get first team minutes in games that suited them best, whilst continuing their education in the reserves.

The fact that the reserve football setup is a joke, needs desperately to be re-vamped and the fact that it won't be, is one of the reasons for English football's demise and underperformance.

We can't have B teams playing in the lower leagues but neither can young players or players returning from injury or players needing to regain form and/or confidence, play at a reasonably high, competative level in this country.
Players who aren't playing regularly don't get a chance to maintain fitness or try to fight their way back into the reckoning. Older players can't be phased out, whilst still maintaining match fitness should they be required or be able to hand on their experience to younger up and coming players. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 27, 2011, 08:21:38 PM
Steve Clarke defends Liverpool's 'average start'

Tuesday 27 September 2011


The Liverpool first-team coach, Steve Clarke, says the club's "average start" to the season is partly due to the changes taking place within the squad. The side have 10 points from six matches after losing at Stoke and Tottenham.

At a similar stage last season their tally was six and discontent was growing against the manager, Roy Hodgson, whose reign lasted six months when he was sacked in January.

As part of the overhaul, financed by the owners, Fenway Sports Group, and undertaken by Kenny Dalglish on his return to take charge of the club, seven players were signed in the summer with numerous others heading in the opposite direction.

Most of those new arrivals have featured in most of the opening matches and while Liverpool have played well in patches they are still to consistently produce their top form.

"Without getting too carried away or too disappointed it's probably just an average start," said Clarke. "You're probably looking at about a seven out of 10. Some pleasing performances and some not so pleasing, but you'd expect that from a group of players where you've made so many changes and you're trying to bed a few things down."

One of the key factors in picking up three wins has been the form of the four-goal striker Luis Suárez, with seven of Liverpool's 10 points coming in matches when he has scored. The 24-year-old was voted fans' man of the match for the fifth time in eight games this season (he has played in both Carling Cup ties) after Saturday's win over Wolves.

But it is the Uruguay international's determination to do well – highlighted by his frustration when he was substituted 10 minutes from the end at the weekend – which has equally impressed.

"With any top player the mentality is always that bit stronger. That's what separates them," Clarke said. "There are a lot of good players at this level and the really, really top ones have got that mental edge that drives them on all the time and produces the kind of performances that we've had from Luis so far.

"He's very grounded. He comes back in on Monday morning and works as hard as ever in training, he upsets all the defenders, scores a couple of goals and that's what he's all about. He trains like he plays – absolutely, every day. He loves to be playing football and that's a great thing."

Suárez was replaced by the captain, Steven Gerrard, making his first Premier League appearance for six months after a groin operation. The return of the England midfielder, who added to his 15-minute Carling Cup appearance last Wednesday, is a boost to everyone at Anfield.

He is lacking in match sharpness and this weekend's Merseyside derby at Goodison Park may come just a little too early for him to make his first start of the season. However, that will not stop the Huyton-born 31-year-old pushing for a place in the lineup.

"Steven himself will dictate the pace of his comeback with how he progresses in training," added Clarke. "We're delighted with the stage he's at, we're delighted with everything he's done for us. We could maybe have got Steven on a little bit earlier [against Wolves] but it didn't work out that way. We've got a full week now and we can use him well in training."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/sep/27/steve-clarke-liverpool-average-start (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/sep/27/steve-clarke-liverpool-average-start)

All we can hope is by the end of the season, all the changes equal improvement.

I'd say we're still short of two or three more technically proficient players, with Aquilani and Meireles leaving, but we still have Maxi, who I'd place in that category, but he doesn't get used enough.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 29, 2011, 06:01:48 PM
Big Game coming up Saturday...

Feeling nervous already!

Can't wait for it  :)

They're gonna give us nothing!

Big Andy Carroll here's your chance!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 29, 2011, 10:55:22 PM
We need to kickstart our season. A few players need to be looking to give us a big performance.

What's the odds on the score being the same as Dalglish's last Derby?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 30, 2011, 12:33:32 AM
A few players need to be looking to give us a big performance.

The lads usually turn up for the Derby! I'm just hoping Adam doesn't
get sent off....In fact with hotheads like Bellamy & Suarez it will be
a miracle if we finish with more than 8 players on the pitch :) LOL.


 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on September 30, 2011, 01:22:02 PM
I don't think i'd play Carroll for the derby...
 
                                                 Suarez

 Downing       Maxi           Lucas            Adam/Gerrard                Kuyt


              Enrique           Skrtel              Coates              Kelly

Bellamy to be brought on for in the 62nd minute for maxi...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on September 30, 2011, 03:44:52 PM
I don't think i'd play Carroll for the derby...
 
                                                 Suarez

 Downing       Maxi           Lucas            Adam/Gerrard                Kuyt


              Enrique           Skrtel              Coates              Kelly

Bellamy to be brought on for in the 62nd minute for maxi...

Jamie didn't become a crap defender overnight, granted there are aspects
to his game that....well.... less said about them the better....Age, obviously
hasn't helped other parts & I think there is an anxiety about him at the
start of the season as he addresses the question of "Whether he's good
enough anymore"

Some things can't be fixed, but I do expect him to settle down and be back to his old
self with a few more games under his belt. Whether he's consistently good enough
to retain a starting 11 place depends, imo, what options we have this season (Agger,
injuries & Coates acclimatising).

Anyway, in the heat of battle of a Merseyside Derby he's my FIRST NAME ON THE
TEAMSHEET.

Regarding Carroll, I like the idea of a BIG physical presence up front in a Derby game
away from home....
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on September 30, 2011, 10:11:51 PM
Jamie didn't become a crap defender overnight, granted there are aspects
to his game that....well.... less said about them the better....Age, obviously
hasn't helped other parts & I think there is an anxiety about him at the
start of the season as he addresses the question of "Whether he's good
enough anymore"

Ed, I reckon you've hit the nail firmly on it's head. Carra realises that age is taking away the ability to perform in the same way as he did 4 or 5 years ago and he's been having trouble adjusting ever since the realisation hit home.
Sometimes he appears to try too hard or overcompensate. Sometimes though the frustration he's experiencing with himself appears to boil over and is reflected in how he deals with his team mates. I'm not saying he 'takes it out on them' because I really don't think that's the case but it does have a negative influence on his interaction with those around.

I think this a game Carroll needs. He looked a touch better last time out and I think we need to build on that.
I'd definately have Dirk in instead of Henderson. Dirk has a knack of popping up with a goal in games like this and he'll offer greater protection against Baines to whoever plays right back.

It would be a big ask to throw Coates into the madness of a Derby game. Let him learn from the sidelines to begin with.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 01, 2011, 02:48:30 AM
Ed, I reckon you've hit the nail firmly on it's head. Carra realises that age is taking away the ability to perform in the same way as he did 4 or 5 years ago and he's been having trouble adjusting ever since the realisation hit home.
Sometimes he appears to try too hard or overcompensate. Sometimes though the frustration he's experiencing with himself appears to boil over and is reflected in how he deals with his team mates. I'm not saying he 'takes it out on them' because I really don't think that's the case but it does have a negative influence on his interaction with those around.

I think this a game Carroll needs. He looked a touch better last time out and I think we need to build on that.
I'd definately have Dirk in instead of Henderson. Dirk has a knack of popping up with a goal in games like this and he'll offer greater protection against Baines to whoever plays right back.

It would be a big ask to throw Coates into the madness of a Derby game. Let him learn from the sidelines to begin with.

Agreed 100%.

Hope the ref doesn't ruin it!

Martin Atkinson did the Arsenal game earlier this season:

http://www.soccerbase.com/referees/referee.sd?referee_id=832&season_id=141
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 01, 2011, 05:31:45 PM
Agreed 100%.

Hope the ref doesn't ruin it!

Martin Atkinson did the Arsenal game earlier this season:

http://www.soccerbase.com/referees/referee.sd?referee_id=832&season_id=141

Looks like he did his best. Still, a victory is a victory. It keeps us on Newcastle's tail for when they falter and hopefully the North London Derby ends in a stalemate, giving us a two point advantage over the weekend against those two rivals.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on October 01, 2011, 06:50:45 PM
I don't think i'd play Carroll for the derby...
 

Says me the tactical genius...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Edward224 on October 01, 2011, 07:19:24 PM
With away games out of the way such as Emirates, Britannia, WHL and Goodison Park, 4 of the toughest away grounds for us already out the way by October 1st, we are in a good position. All away games are difficult, but taking out Old Trafford, Stamford and Etihad Stadium the away games left for us are all winnable. So the position we are in is quite decent.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 01, 2011, 08:20:15 PM
Says me the tactical genius...

Don't be so hard on yourself, Barticus. Not many little orange space invaders get the tactical calls alright.

Based on current form it was a hard case to argue. He took his goal really well. Hopefully, both he and the team can now kick on.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Edward224 on October 02, 2011, 12:36:26 AM
One thing I did notice was Lucas's passing today - besides the 92% pass completion.

Up until Adam went off on 67 minutes, Lucas made 24 passes, 23 successful.  Once Adam was replaced by Gerrard in the next 21 minutes that Lucas was in central midfield with Gerrard, Lucas made 51 passes, 45 successful.  Thats some major difference.  Now I know Everton were getting tired, but 24 passes in 67 minutes with Adam, compared to 51 passes in 21 minutes with Gerrard is a quite remarkable difference.  1/3rd of the time on the pitch with Gerrard, more than twice the amount of passes.  It's also the time we scored both of our goals.  Co-incidence?

When I see Lucas on the ball I start breathing regularly. You know he'll control it first time, you know his pass will be crisp and well chosen, and you know his movement after delivery will be intelligent.

Alternatively, when an opponent beats his marker and has a bit of a free run I won't start panicking until I can't see Lucas chasing him down or cutting off his chosen path.


But I guess Lucas is just a limited footballer eh......................
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 02, 2011, 01:27:51 AM
But I guess Lucas is just a limited footballer eh......................

Lucas is a class act, a fantastic footballer & character, we all know that?

How to structure the midfield around him is the big question imo. Adam gives
us something as does Gerrard.

What was evident today in a 2 man midfield, Gerrard provides the adventureness which
you could argue Lucas, for whatever reason, lacks. In fact I'd say Lucas was Yin to Gerrards
Yang. Only games will tell whether that's enough. Tbh, although he performs his role admirably,
imo, Lucas can get caught out for pace occasionally and we are vulnerable to giving away
free kicks and letting players get shots off just outside the box with this 2 man set-up.

Therefore, I'm open to 5 man midfield with Lucas lying deeper and 1 up front with support from
the third midfielder. In fact originally I thought we bought Henderson for a central role?

Anyway, I think we can get away with Gerrard and Lucas as a 2 midfield for some games (the thing
about Adam is I wonder if you get 90 minutes out of him) but think we should consider reverting to 5
occasionally, 'til the centre back situation is sorted out proper!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 02, 2011, 08:02:16 PM
Lucas is a class act, a fantastic footballer & character, we all know that?

How to structure the midfield around him is the big question imo. Adam gives
us something as does Gerrard.

What was evident today in a 2 man midfield, Gerrard provides the adventureness which
you could argue Lucas, for whatever reason, lacks. In fact I'd say Lucas was Yin to Gerrards
Yang. Only games will tell whether that's enough. Tbh, although he performs his role admirably,
imo, Lucas can get caught out for pace occasionally and we are vulnerable to giving away
free kicks and letting players get shots off just outside the box with this 2 man set-up.

Therefore, I'm open to 5 man midfield with Lucas lying deeper and 1 up front with support from
the third midfielder. In fact originally I thought we bought Henderson for a central role?

Anyway, I think we can get away with Gerrard and Lucas as a 2 midfield for some games (the thing
about Adam is I wonder if you get 90 minutes out of him) but think we should consider reverting to 5
occasionally, 'til the centre back situation is sorted out proper!

Considering Lucas was originally an attacking midfielder at Gremio, who would keep the ball moving in the final 1/3 and around the opponents box, whilst breaking into the box and getting on the end of things when the chance arose, his metamorphasis has been a huge one. I hope Henderson can learn from Lucas and adopt his steely mentality.
I know people claim his passing is 'limited' but when you look at his midfielder partners, he isn't provided the protection to get forward himself and his discipline is one of his major, if vastly underrated and appreciated, talents.
Even when played with Mascherano, he wasn't allowed to get forward as Rafa's policy was to have two sitting in front of the defence.

If we revert to a five man midfield (or a 3, 2 split) it would give us the extra body in there both in a defensive an offensive sense, but then one of Suarez or Carroll misses out.

I think Henderson needs some time out to learn. He needs to watch Dirk's movement and combination play with Suarez and also how Dirk chooses his runs and never leaves his full back exposed or over run.

Adam needs to watch DVDs of Xabi to learn that you don't have to throw yourself in to win the ball. His attempts at tackling are sometimes ill thought out. Many times he dives in when he should simply sheppard the man, pressurise and wait for a clear view of the ball before attempting to tackle. You don't need to neccessarily win the ball. Forcing an opponent to turn and play the ball backwards is good defending. The opposition can't score by playing passes backwards in the direction of their own goal and hence away from ours.     
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 04, 2011, 01:45:38 AM
I note the Gunners played 5 across the middle away to
Spurs yesterday and it effectively contained them for
large periods:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/oct/02/arsene-wenger-arsenal-tottenham

Which begs the question to what degree we are tied
to 4 in the middle this season? It's also worth asking,
imo, given that we seem to be playing 4 in the middle
at the moment, where are current centre-half pairing
would rank amongst the other teams in the league?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Edward224 on October 04, 2011, 01:17:45 PM
Where is Martin, he is usually here after a loss or a draw  :P ;)

Considering our best centre half partnership is Carra-Agger, I'd rate them in this order:-

1:- King/Dawson
2:- Jones/Vidic
3:- Kompany/Lescott
4:- Terry/Alex
5:- Carra/Agger
6:- Shawcross/Woodgate
7:- Jagielka/Distin

The rest.............
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 04, 2011, 09:12:59 PM
I note the Gunners played 5 across the middle away to
Spurs yesterday and it effectively contained them for
large periods:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/oct/02/arsene-wenger-arsenal-tottenham

Which begs the question to what degree we are tied
to 4 in the middle this season? It's also worth asking,
imo, given that we seem to be playing 4 in the middle
at the moment, where are current centre-half pairing
would rank amongst the other teams in the league?

We are tied to a four man midfield if we are to play Suarez and Carroll as a traditional 'front two'. We don't as yet have the personal to play effectively as a 'traditional' four man midfield and it means we get over run and lose the flexibility 4-4-3 or 4-2-3-1 gives us unless one of our forwards becomes a 'utility' midfielder when we don't have the ball. Also we lack too much pace and mobility in central midfield for a two man central midfield to be constantly successful and our ball winning personnel there numbers one, as Charlie Adam's tackling is too poor to be relied upon and a yellow card (or worse) waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 04, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
We are tied to a four man midfield if we are to play Suarez and Carroll as a traditional 'front two'. We don't as yet have the personal to play effectively as a 'traditional' four man midfield and it means we get over run and lose the flexibility 4-4-3 or 4-2-3-1 gives us unless one of our forwards becomes a 'utility' midfielder when we don't have the ball. Also we lack too much pace and mobility in central midfield for a two man central midfield to be constantly successful and our ball winning personnel there numbers one, as Charlie Adam's tackling is too poor to be relied upon and a yellow card (or worse) waiting to happen.

I tend to agree completely with that!

Ed reckons we have the 5th best centre half pairing in the league
(with a fully fit Agger!). I'm not as familiar with other teams
to comment, but my gut tells me we are weak in that area. I'd rather
see Lucas lying deeper and us playing to our strengths with Gerrard up
behind a lone striker and Adam doing the passing in the middle.
At least this way we have Gerrard to come back and help out in midfield.

I'm all in favour of steadily accumulating points on the board and if
we have to be conservative defensively, control games and win 1-0,
I don't care who starts up front.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 05, 2011, 09:17:30 PM
Here's a good article about United

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/10/05/why-are-manchester-united-allowing-so-many-shots-on-their-goal-this-season/

that touches on some of the issues that me and Tes have been harping on about.

I think if you also added in where on the pitch we've been giving away free kicks it
would be interesting (I may have a look myself at the Chalkboards on the Guardian
& report back  :D).
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 05, 2011, 09:55:51 PM
Here's a good article about United

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/10/05/why-are-manchester-united-allowing-so-many-shots-on-their-goal-this-season/

that touches on some of the issues that me and Tes have been harping on about.

I think if you also added in where on the pitch we've been giving away free kicks it
would be interesting (I may have a look myself at the Chalkboards on the Guardian
& report back  :D).

Sooner or later some of those shots are going to end up as goals. Interestingly, the article claims De Gea is supposedly weak on shots from distance, but the goals conceded hardly back it up. However, from what I've seen of him his weakness looks to be crosses. Either way, we need to put him under pressure from both long range and get plenty of balls into the box from wide positions, then hopefully any mishandling can be buried in the back of the net by Suarez. Also, whoever gets the nod up front needs to be told to follow in every shot and with either Adam or Gerrard playing, we should be trying our luck from distance. 

Ed, it'll be interesting to read what you find out from the chalk boards.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on October 06, 2011, 01:05:41 PM
As long as we can mix it up by attacking those weaknesses in the air but also playing like the attacking unit when we played manure last march then i for one will be happy...if we resort to 'lump ball' only then we not only do not play to our strengths, we will also fall prey to manure and become one dimensional...it might then be open season...
we can beat anyone...but we also need to play with the confidence of the second half of last season...
then it'll be game on...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 07, 2011, 12:39:47 AM
As long as we can mix it up by attacking those weaknesses in the air but also playing like the attacking unit when we played manure last march then i for one will be happy...if we resort to 'lump ball' only then we not only do not play to our strengths, we will also fall prey to manure and become one dimensional...it might then be open season...
we can beat anyone...but we also need to play with the confidence of the second half of last season...
then it'll be game on...

Agreed, Barticus. We need to go back to the way we played when Dalglish took over. The Mancs are playing more 4-4-2 and 4-2-3-1 would give us a greater chance of controlling the midfield, and hence the match.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on October 07, 2011, 02:36:40 PM
Agreed, Barticus. We need to go back to the way we played when Dalglish took over. The Mancs are playing more 4-4-2 and 4-2-3-1 would give us a greater chance of controlling the midfield, and hence the match.
Amen Tes! with Gerrard as auxiliary striker to Suarez and kuyt attacking with either maxi/downing...Adam doing nothign fancy and remaining calm and lucas keeping it tight in defensive mid...bellamy to be introduced to add even more pace later on
then we can get something from the game....
i think 4-4-2 and Carroll is too big a luxury for this type of game...he might fit in, in smaller games..i will stand corrected if he plays well....

Am also fairly irritated how manure are playing this season....i really thought there would be a weakening once scholes, van der sar, neville, brown, oshea etc had gone...but if anything they've played slightly better...though found out in europe...premier teams really have to stop giving them so much respect...and have a go...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on October 07, 2011, 05:01:16 PM
...premier teams really have to stop giving them so much respect...and have a go...

75 percent of the teams they play are beaten before the game starts. Teams give them respect they dont deserve no matter if its a team of United reserves. And though you make your own luck they tend to get things served up to them. Last season Champions League semi final they could have drawn Real or Barca, instead  they draw Schalke who were 10th in the Bundesliga at the time. This season where Man City draw Villareal, Bayern and Napoli in the CL they draw a group of nobodys. Even in the latest draw of the Carling Cup, plenty of Premier League ties, we get Stoke, United get Aldershot. They always have home games after the tough Champions league matches. For about 6 seasons in a row they got a home draw for the first game of the PL. There wasnt a penalty decision against United at OT for something like 10 years from 1994-2004 or thereabouts. You look at the likes of the Spurs goal that was never given against Roy Carroll, nearly a metre over the line. They got a penalty that never was when Spurs were 2 nil up and United came back to win 5-2. Last season Blackpool were 2 nil up and the ref didnt give a blatant penalty against United that most liely would have finished the game. United came back to win 3-2. Apologies this has turned into a bit of a rant but Im often sickened by the preferntial treatment they get. Whether its crowding the ref or Fergie trying to manipulate officials its always the same. They have started handing Fergie touchline bans for his outbursts and maybe a 10 grand fine, joke, the fact that he is back shooting his mouth off within weeks proves the punishment doesnt fit the crime. Why not start hitting clubs who dont follow the rules with a points deduction? fergie would never agree to that. The sooner the PL, Fifa and Uefa look at the way professional rugby is governed, refereed and run the sooner they could sort our all thats wrong with football. Problem is there are too many conflicting interests in the game, too much money changing hands and while thats the case teams like United can do and say what they want and all they risk is a slap on the wrist. Once again apologies rant over.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on October 07, 2011, 07:35:58 PM
Bang on Juan...at one stage i thought it would be highlighted...rafa tried to...but the manure press pilloried him...wenger probably can't at the moment...and a whole host of them are fergie lovers...mancini might try but he'll prolly be written down as a 'bloody foreigner'....
as soon as there is weakness the rats will jump ship....
gotta keep praying...and writing to santa...
it will come...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on October 07, 2011, 10:03:16 PM
Bang on Juan...at one stage i thought it would be highlighted...rafa tried to...but the manure press pilloried him...wenger probably can't at the moment...and a whole host of them are fergie lovers...mancini might try but he'll prolly be written down as a 'bloody foreigner'....
as soon as there is weakness the rats will jump ship....
gotta keep praying...and writing to santa...
it will come...

Lol, at this stage with every Champions League draw that goes by and with the luck that United accumulate Im pretty sure Santa is a United fan. As is God, Allah, Buddah, Ganesh whoever else you can think because Ive prayed to them all without any joy.

Seriously though there is a group of managers in the Premier League that would worship the saliva in his chewing gum. David Moyes who in my mind is a fantastic manager has no reason to have allegences with fergie but he does. Fat Sam is like his minnion. I saw him interviewed during the summer at the races, fergies horse was racing. I dont think misses Ferguson would have looked as proud beside Fergie, Sam looked as if Fergie had just proposed. He'd have said yes too. Bruce is another I cant abide, especially when it come to game time. You just know sunderland will get mauled by United and Bruce will almost thank fergie for the privilage.

Its amazing, this club, its mangers and players associated have rarely got the accolades they deserve down through the years from cetain quarters. How the likes of Paisley and Dalglish never got knighthoods for me is further evidence of the blatant difference in how LFC is viewed / portrayed by some compared with MUFC. The work Dalglish did after Hilsborough alone was worth a knighthood, not to mind what hes done for football itself but it will be the likes of the Beckhams or Giggs who will be honoured ever before Dalglish gets what hes long overdue.

Apologies Ive broken into another rant. It just pains me to see United portrayed by the media the way they are.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 08, 2011, 12:04:56 AM
Juan, give over apologising and keep telling it like it is. Two thoroughly enjoyable posts.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 08, 2011, 08:14:53 PM
So, as promised, some stats! Tbh, with the exception of Sunderland,
it isn't as bad as I expected! Still reckon that we're better with
a 5 man midfield, given our weakness at centre back!  :P

Sunderland Home:     10 shots outside the box, 1 on target.

                 20 Free Kicks conceded in our half

Arsenal Away:          5 shots outside the box 1 blocked, 1 on target

                 6 Free Kicks conceded in our half

Bolton Home:             4 shots outside the box, 2 blocked, 1 on target

                                3 Free Kicks conceded in our half

Stoke Away:              1 shot outside the box, blocked

                                 13 Free Kicks conceded in our half

Spurs away:             9 shots outside the box, 3 blocked, 3 on target

                                14 Free Kicks conceded in our half

Wolves Home:          5 shots from outside the box, 2 blocked

                                15 Free Kicks conceded in our half

Everton away:          9 shots from outside the box, 3 blocked, 2 on target

                                 13 Free Kicks conceded in our half
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 09, 2011, 07:54:55 PM
Wonder if we'll start with Suarez, given the early kick-off on Saturday?
Then again, I presume Lucas is away as well and I'd expect him to start.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 10, 2011, 12:01:31 AM
It would be best to start him then take him off if needed. We'd have one very unhappy Uruguayian if we did anything else. It's so good to have a player like Luis who just wants to play football, all the time.

Imagine the lift it would give the Mancs if Luis wasn't in the starting line up.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 10, 2011, 10:43:48 PM
It would be best to start him then take him off if needed. We'd have one very unhappy Uruguayian if we did anything else. It's so good to have a player like Luis who just wants to play football, all the time.

Imagine the lift it would give the Mancs if Luis wasn't in the starting line up.

Dunno, big decisions for KD! I don't think Lucas got a game against Costa Rica
but he's in the squad for Mexico on Wednesday...

I think we use Suarez too much as it is and am worried we'll pay for it down the
line...

With a lunchtime kick-off at home on the Saturday, I would have no arguments
with Carroll starting and us demonstrating the depth of the squad....Spearing,
Gerrard & Adam in the centre?

IMO, we need to think about the whole season and boll***s to this gung-ho
nonsense! Obviously, I want us to beat the Mancs, just I'd settle for 1- 0 &
think we should have the depth to do it without overtaxing 2 of our most
valuable players so erly in the season?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on October 14, 2011, 08:04:09 PM
On a personal note i'd like to thank Rafa for a comment he made yesterday on radio merseyside...
Manchester United have been successful because of MONEY....
At the inception of the Premier league Manure made a bunch of money on stocks and shares when selling their brand...that's it...
Fergie may have moaned about the money from Jack Walker to get the championship with blackburn...but when looking at the amount spent kenny won and fergie lost...
when chelsea outspent manure after 2005...fergie lost out...
throughout all those other years manure had the money...they bought 30 mil players here...remember veron and taibi?? good money spent there...

i do have a modicum of respect for fergie but i'm sick to death of all this blind adoration that everyone is adopting at the moment...

he's lasted because he's had money to spend and he's outspent everyone else since 1992...

good one rafa
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 14, 2011, 08:32:46 PM
Money helps, massively, but how it's spent decides whether it's an advantage or not. Taggart always moans when an equalising factor appears. It would have been interesting to see if he could have been as successful if his resources were more on a par with the competition. He's benefitted massively from having a farsighted board supplying him with the finances to be 'competative'.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on October 15, 2011, 12:22:50 AM
Dunno, big decisions for KD! I don't think Lucas got a game against Costa Rica
but he's in the squad for Mexico on Wednesday...

I think we use Suarez too much as it is and am worried we'll pay for it down the
line...

With a lunchtime kick-off at home on the Saturday, I would have no arguments
with Carroll starting and us demonstrating the depth of the squad....Spearing,
Gerrard & Adam in the centre?

IMO, we need to think about the whole season and boll***s to this gung-ho
nonsense! Obviously, I want us to beat the Mancs, just I'd settle for 1- 0 &
think we should have the depth to do it without overtaxing 2 of our most
valuable players so erly in the season?

I see your point Ed but its for games like these that the likes of Suarez sign for Liverpool. If hes fit he has to start tomorrow. Start leaving him on the bench for important games like this and he will be off to Spain in no time. Look at Barca, they are very slow to rest players often. They dont wrap Messi in cotton wool or continuously substitute him. The PL is more physical but if you start worrying about injuries and resting players in October the chances of winning anything are slim. On the other hand if a player has a niggle or is tired then you dont risk them but until such a time we need to play our strongest available team in the league.

Also even though Kenny wont admit it this game is of greater importance to us than it is to United. Bragging rights aside if we were to lose then we're already 9 points off United, potentially 9, 6 off City and Chelsea and 5 off Spurs if they win tomorrow along with their game in hand.  Early days but not ideal to be chasing teams so early. So all in all I agree with Tes, I would prefer to start the likes of Suarez and Gerrard for that matter and take them off if they tire in the second half.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on October 15, 2011, 12:40:30 AM
As for the result itself unfortunatley Im a big believer in the law of averages and all that. The simple fact that we have beaten United on the last 3 occasions at Anfield I think they will nick a point tomorrow and it will probably end 1-1. Hope Im wrong.

Who knows what team Kenny will pick. Does he put Carroll upfront to act as a handful or does he play Gerrard off Suarez. Kuyt could also be a starter. Id love to see Bellamy, Suarez, Gerrard, Downing and Kuyt in the starting line-up. What formation I dont know but it sure would be attack minded. Heres how i actually see us lining out;

                          Reina

Kelly     Carragher        Skrtel      Enrique

Kuyt        Adam            Lucas   Downing

                       Gerrard

                       Suarez

Subs;
Doni
Johnson
Coates
Henderson
Spearing
Bellamy
Carroll

As long as Johnson doesnt start right back hopefully our defense can hold out. These days Carragher and Skrtel are shaky enough without throwing 'I cant defend even though Im a defender' Glen Johnson into the mix.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on October 15, 2011, 12:51:51 AM
I forgot about Agger! Not sure if hes back fit or had any international game time. If he has relegate Skrtel to the bench where the amount of damage he can inflict on his own team  is limited.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 15, 2011, 02:58:48 AM
I see your point Ed but its for games like these that the likes of Suarez sign for Liverpool. If hes fit he has to start tomorrow. Start leaving him on the bench for important games like this and he will be off to Spain in no time. Look at Barca, they are very slow to rest players often. They dont wrap Messi in cotton wool or continuously substitute him. The PL is more physical but if you start worrying about injuries and resting players in October the chances of winning anything are slim. On the other hand if a player has a niggle or is tired then you dont risk them but until such a time we need to play our strongest available team in the league.

Also even though Kenny wont admit it this game is of greater importance to us than it is to United. Bragging rights aside if we were to lose then we're already 9 points off United, potentially 9, 6 off City and Chelsea and 5 off Spurs if they win tomorrow along with their game in hand.  Early days but not ideal to be chasing teams so early. So all in all I agree with Tes, I would prefer to start the likes of Suarez and Gerrard for that matter and take them off if they tire in the second half.

LOL, Yeah, have to agree with you 100%.

Originally, I thought the Wednesday games were Wednesday evening and not around 4 am in the morning
and considered the timeframe to be too short.

My rant came out of a feeling that beating United (though it always feels great!) is of no use if
they go on to win the league, anyway, each year (That's an Everton mentality!).

I do fear that we are using Suarez way too much though (c'mon, playing him in the Carling cup
demonstrates how desperate we are for silverware this season, imo). What I'm saying is, I don't
want to see a repeat of the Torres situation where Rafa overplayed him. Furthermore, I think that we
are too reliant on him at the moment and again, imo, that's just repeating the mistakes of old (one-man
team etc..)

I think, for a number of reasons, we don't have the luxury yet to intelligently use the full squad but
if we're not careful, i think we'll damage our end of season chances if we continue to stress & strain
our best players e.g. unless they're Superhuman, I just can't see Suarez and Lucas (off the back of
the Copa) being 100% come April.   

Jayo, although he doesn't have the class or experience of Lucas, is a good utility guy to come in and
do a job in a 5 man midfield (and he also needs some game time!) & Carroll should, imo, be able to work
alone with Gerrard up front (especially with guys like Kuyt &/or Bellamy sniffing around).

Anyway, it's for another day this discussion, in the meantime.....time to bite the nails  :D

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on October 15, 2011, 11:01:43 AM
Awrite folks, been off for a while due to work and family committments. Being an out of country fan I look forward to what is for me by far the greatest game of the season. I feel the break did us good because it made it possible for us to get some distance to the derby win and recharge the batteries. Just like Juan tho, I am too a firm believer in the law of averages and for that reason alone I struggle to see us become the first team in the history of the PL to beat ManU for 4 consecutive fixtures.

My Manc mate reckons differently tho. He think that his team is low on form and given we play at home, the fact we're on an upward spiral gives us just the edge.

It's really tough to say what would be our best formation or line-up today. The back 4 is probably picking itself. The forward 6 is tougher tho. I don't think we can afford to start the game without Carrol today. In fact, I think this game could be his big break through. I also think Kuijt is a must start. Watched him play 72 minutes for Holland in their mid-week defeat to Sweden. Together with Van Persie he was by far the dominant force on the pitch and had they kept him on for the entire game I think Sweden would've dropped points. That's how good he was.

Suarez is a given and so is a fully fit Gerrard and probably Downing (only by lack of competition tho). It leaves KD with selection headache regarding who to play of Adam, Lucas or Henderson.

How to deploy the team? I don't know. For once I have a feeling a 4-4-2 formation won't be best for us, but rather a 4-2-1-3 formation with Suarez in the hole behind Carrol and Downing and Kuijt holding the flanks. Gerrard and Adam would be my preferred engineroom in front of the back 4.

All this in Swenglish. Come on you redmen!!!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on October 15, 2011, 04:27:20 PM
Unfortunately as predicted 1-1 in the end with Skrtel at fault for Uniteds equaliser.

Ferguson described this game as bigger than Real Barca during the week. As a Liverpool fan I would agree but unfortunately for all the hype for all the top talent on show this game is often pretty poor stuff as a footballing spectacle and today for me was one of those days.

Reina, Kelly, Carragher, Suarez aside I thought most other players went missing at times or just werent at the races. Gerrard got man of the match off Ray Wilkins. Aside from his goal I didnt see a man of the match perfromance from him. This isnt a criticism, im just being honest. I thought he did well for his first game back but he wasnt the best player on the pitch by a long shot.

Ed you definitely proved a point about players needing resting in October becuase from early in the game I thought Lucas looked a mile off the pace. He looked exhausted. Downing was quiet, Adam looked cumbersome. Kuyt was alright, unlucky not to score from downings cross but looked industriuos more than anything else. That United line up was there to be beaten but this team is yet to click.

We still need time to gel but we need to see more from the players. There are some early positives and negatives this season. Enrique looks more a 20 million player than he does 6. Kelly if he can stay fit can make that right back berth his own. Suarez is currently in a league of his own in the team. On the downside at the moment our centre midfield pairing of Lucas and Adam looks weak as does the pairing of Carragher and Skrtel.

8 games played 14 points and 5th in the table, an average start, no complaints from me considering the number of changes made during the summer. 4 points from the derby and united game is a decent return but now its time for the team and new players to push on a level and show us why Kenny has decided to bring them to the club in the first place.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on October 15, 2011, 06:46:49 PM
I thought we played well today...it was one way traffic for the first half for our lads and was shocked to see a stat of 58% possession for manure...unless i read it wrong..

it's a pity that we didn't take advantage however of a very anaemic looking manu...
apart from a touch of class from chicarito...the rest of their stuff was desperate...

we miss merieles and we miss maxi...we can do something about the latter and swapping him for downing in the last 20 minutes can't be a bad thing surely?


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 16, 2011, 12:41:10 AM
Glad to get that one out of the way...

Strangely, think Fergie came looking for a draw,
That donkey Jones in midfield wtf?

Just shows, mentally, we're his Achilles heal.

Think our lads should take it as a compliment
and crack on now, notching some serious points
on the board!

Saturday, 22 October 2011
Barclays Premier League
Liverpool v Norwich, 17:30

Saturday, 29 October 2011
Barclays Premier League
West Brom v Liverpool, 17:30

Saturday, 5 November 2011
Barclays Premier League
Liverpool v Swansea, 15:00
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 16, 2011, 08:07:36 PM
Our lack of ability to keep a clean sheet is costing us dear. Whilst you don't win matches with clean sheets alone, you don't lose them, and as with yesterday and against Sunderland, if you take the lead then a clean sheet does win you the game.

We miss the more technical players like Meireles and Maxi's lack of minutes is puzzling, unless Dalglish sees a problem in training or is looker to maintain continuity into the future by not selecting 'certain' older players.

Still, we weren't hanging on and the fact a draw feels like a defeat I guess could be described as a positive.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 17, 2011, 01:22:52 AM
Our lack of ability to keep a clean sheet is costing us dear. Whilst you don't win matches with clean sheets alone, you don't lose them, and as with yesterday and against Sunderland, if you take the lead then a clean sheet does win you the game.
I think we've got 3 league games against (No disrespect...ok a little  :D) beatable opposition + a Carling
Cup game against Stoke (revenge!) to get things right. Then come 2 big games against Chelsea (been
stealthily impressive this season!) and City.

Hoping to see lots of progress over the next few weeks (Johnson & Agger back!), I mean sooner or later, imo, we have to stop using this word gelling and start seeing crosses into the box that are stuck in the back of the
net by Carroll (Enrique, Johnson, Adam, Downing all have crossing/passing ability, the whole team is set up for
this) and if it's not happening, I expect to see a plan B taking shape!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 17, 2011, 10:03:52 PM
........I mean sooner or later, imo, we have to stop using this word gelling..........

Good point, Ed. I think we have to give the squad a season for all of them to get used to each other, as we made a huge amount of changes and also for all the players to adapt to Dalglish and Clarke's tactics and way of doing things.

I know patience seems to be an eternal demand of us as fans but I see no other way.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on October 17, 2011, 10:11:46 PM
A tad disappointed to be honest. I really really think they were there for the taking, given their quite shocking line-up. It is as if Fergie's decision to rest half his team gobsmacked us and we needed the better part of the opening 60 minutes to come up with a plan B. Really stupid goal to concede, but once again we got evidence how costly it is to play a mediocre CB-pairing in such a high-profile game. Also disappointed we couldn't convert any of our clear cut chances. On the upside of things they never managed to threaten us at all, which, in fairness was prolly down to the defensive line up Fergie stuck with.

Like Ed says it'll be interesting to see how we react to this in the upcoming 4-5 games.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 18, 2011, 09:19:05 PM
A tad disappointed to be honest. I really really think they were there for the taking, given their quite shocking line-up. It is as if Fergie's decision to rest half his team gobsmacked us and we needed the better part of the opening 60 minutes to come up with a plan B. Really stupid goal to concede, but once again we got evidence how costly it is to play a mediocre CB-pairing in such a high-profile game. Also disappointed we couldn't convert any of our clear cut chances. On the upside of things they never managed to threaten us at all, which, in fairness was prolly down to the defensive line up Fergie stuck with.

Like Ed says it'll be interesting to see how we react to this in the upcoming 4-5 games.

Again it highlights the facts that if you don't convert your chances then it's imperative you make sure you stop the opposition from creating and or taking their's. Bottom line, we're therefore obviously not strong enough yet at either end.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 20, 2011, 08:22:58 PM
Dalglish commenting today on Lucas v United

"He's been fantastic this season for us. On Saturday he was a wee bit unfortunate
that I decided to play him after the journey he'd had. It maybe took more out of him
than I thought."

I had a feeling that was going to be the case. The thing about Lucas playing
for Brazil is, given the role he plays for them, he really has to be concentrated
for the full 90 minutes and cover a lot of ground. Given the heat of Mexico + the
amount of travel involved, it doesn't surprise me.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 21, 2011, 12:08:45 AM
Dalglish commenting today on Lucas v United

"He's been fantastic this season for us. On Saturday he was a wee bit unfortunate
that I decided to play him after the journey he'd had. It maybe took more out of him
than I thought."

I had a feeling that was going to be the case. The thing about Lucas playing
for Brazil is, given the role he plays for them, he really has to be concentrated
for the full 90 minutes and cover a lot of ground. Given the heat of Mexico + the
amount of travel involved, it doesn't surprise me.

So is he saying he made a mistake? And what about the opinions and input of the sports science and medical people at the club?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 21, 2011, 01:37:34 AM
So is he saying he made a mistake? And what about the opinions and input of the sports science and medical people at the club?

I think what we saw with United on Saturday, is the Options they
have, but even more importantly the seemless nature with which
they can utilise them (how many changes to the first 11 did they
make) and in particular away from home.

We on the other hand have a reasonably strong bench, but our 1st 11 doesn't
stand up to much tinkering. I wondered aloud last week about mixing
it up and swapping Spearing & Carroll in for Lucas & Suarez, making the
argument that we were the home team and should gamble on the freshness
of 2 players that hadn't featured in internationals (perhaps with the option
of introducing Suarez late on). I accept that I was wrong about Suarez, who
terrorised them, but was disappointed with the lack of energy on our part (the
home team) in the first half.

Imo, this is a knock on effect of making so many personnel changes over the
Summer. First we have to wait for a credible first 11 to gel before (injuries aside)
we can even hope to make use of the full squad.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 21, 2011, 11:38:40 PM
I think what we saw with United on Saturday, is the Options they
have, but even more importantly the seemless nature with which
they can utilise them (how many changes to the first 11 did they
make) and in particular away from home.

We on the other hand have a reasonably strong bench, but our 1st 11 doesn't
stand up to much tinkering. I wondered aloud last week about mixing
it up and swapping Spearing & Carroll in for Lucas & Suarez, making the
argument that we were the home team and should gamble on the freshness
of 2 players that hadn't featured in internationals (perhaps with the option
of introducing Suarez late on). I accept that I was wrong about Suarez, who
terrorised them, but was disappointed with the lack of energy on our part (the
home team) in the first half.

Imo, this is a knock on effect of making so many personnel changes over the
Summer. First we have to wait for a credible first 11 to gel before (injuries aside)
we can even hope to make use of the full squad.

Ed, I think it was catch 22 this Summer. The proven thinking is no more than two, or at a push, three new additions at any one time to the 'first eleven', but if we didn't make the extra editions it would probably be looked on as we hadn't done enough to get into the Top Four. That in itself placed extra pressure on the management to make the extra additions as two seasons outside of the Top Four was enough and too many absences from the CL means you lose profile and the ability to attract both the right calibre player and also the right level of sponsorship/partnerships.
The trick is getting the balance right, as too many additions can be as bad as too few.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 22, 2011, 06:54:41 PM
Well, that's a nice bed out of the window for yet another game.  Skrtel/Carra combination - will questions start to be asked?
Title: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on October 22, 2011, 07:28:06 PM
How the f did we not win that game?  Why does every opposition goal keeper have their best game of the season against us?

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 22, 2011, 07:43:01 PM
Still the twin problems of not taking our chances and not being able to keep a clean sheet remain.

Central defence needs investment next Summer. Not being able to field a consistant choice at right back is hardly helping matters either.

The lack of goals throughout the team is going to be our downfall this season. We've let Spurs right back in and allowed Newcastle to get further ahead. We need to improve at both ends otherwise Europa League will be the best we can hope for next season, either that or hope for a collapse or extended run of poor form from teams around us.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 22, 2011, 10:52:50 PM
Disappointing as Gurdeep says that the opposition 'keeper was MoTM for the second game running.

But, and this is a big but, we are at least creating the chances. Suarez could have had a hattrick today and the post was their best defender. Plus a Banksesque type save at the death.

I see reinforcements arriving in January. Their goal was bizarre. Johnson, Caragher and Reina all within a wisker of the sole Norwich forward. How many times does that happen?

Disappointing but don't assume that Spurs will have a clean run of wins. There's a long way to go.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on October 23, 2011, 12:20:31 AM
Still the twin problems of not taking our chances and not being able to keep a clean sheet remain.

Central defence needs investment next Summer. Not being able to field a consistant choice at right back is hardly helping matters either.

The lack of goals throughout the team is going to be our downfall this season. We've let Spurs right back in and allowed Newcastle to get further ahead. We need to improve at both ends otherwise Europa League will be the best we can hope for next season, either that or hope for a collapse or extended run of poor form from teams around us.

Most frustraing game ive watched in a long while.

At the moment we have 4 players who warrant automatic selection, Reina, Enrique, Kelly and Suarez. Downing also on the left wing by default, lack of any competition. Other than that central defence needs changing, central midfield needs addressing and Carroll needs to be integrated into the team. These 10 minute cameos are putting the lad under more pressure. Give him his game time. surely if hes good enough he'll show it but one things for sure hes not going to be able to silence his doubters and critics sitting on the bench.

An average start to the season has probably now become worse than average. Kenny needs to man up address the issues, start integrating the players like Coates, Carroll and even Henderson who are meant to be the future of the club and stop worrying about how players like Carragher will take to being left out. We arent going to win the league this year, but it would have been a season wasted if come next may we still didnt know if Carroll Coates and the likes were good enough becuase they simply didnt get game time. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on October 23, 2011, 11:05:16 AM
A few reflections on a game and a result that will cost us dearly in the naive struggle for 4th.

- Although we started off with high intensity creating a lot of chances, including two hits in the woodwork, the feeling we're the huff'n puff of the PL wouldn't escape me.

- With 25 minutes to go I really could feel we would get a maximum of 1 point from this game.

- Suarez is a diver and need to sort that out, especially as it seems a contagious disease, right Charlie?

- The balance of the team is non-existing, not to say shocking, and this says a lot about KK to be honest. As long as the intensity is there we look a good side. Once it's gone we run around like headless chickens. No structure, no method, no nothing providing Norwich with ample time to organise their own game.

- Our inability to keep a clean sheet need no commenting as it's there for anyone to see.

- Downing is shine-a-light and a huge waste of money. More than anything we need a better scouting system.

- Kenny's a slow learner indeed. 4-3-3 will never work against "lesser" opposition at home. I am convinced a good old 4-4-2 formation is the best way to get the players to know each other.

- WBA away I reckon a point is a maximum for this quite average squad.

- Neither of ManU, ManC, Chelsea, Arsenal or Tottenham will drop points at home against Norwich. This is exactly why we'll go on a three year run with no CL footy.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on October 23, 2011, 12:16:31 PM
We were all over norwich but until we do the two basic things of defending and hitting the target we'll struggle for fourth...stupid goals conceded

Interesting that the 3 who collided for the goal included johnson and carra...reina went for the ball because he had no real faith in those 2...Kelly for me all the time, johnson to swap with kuyt on the right in the 85th minute o so of every game...
i noticed that maxi and coates were played in the friendly against rangers...didnt see the game...how did they fare?
Downing looks tired as does carra...so need some fresh legs..

the sale of raul merieles now looks insane...when we were just looking like a potential top 4 side..
bellamy was a steal though, as was enrique and suarez...
carroll is still unproven, henderson and adam are good squad players...

balances out i guess...if maxi is never going to play again then play bellamy on the left...where he's always coming from...

drop downing to sub for a few games...play carroll and suarez up front...
with lucas, gerrard and kuyt in midfield...
and with enrique,  coates, agger and kelly in defense...

finally the strikers and midfield need 'shoot at goal' practice...8 hours a day til friday...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on October 23, 2011, 05:53:01 PM
It's not just the strikers, it's the whole team that looks short of goals.

Enrique needs to close down quicker. The crosser should have been put under much more pressure than he was. Stop the cross and you have nothing further to deal with.

Downing's wild slash was less than amateurish.

Bellamy has to start the next game, Downing collecting splinters and give Maxi a go at trying to re-create his form from the end of last season.

And give Carra a break, whether he likes it or not.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 25, 2011, 04:21:54 AM
It's not just the strikers, it's the whole team that looks short of goals.

Enrique needs to close down quicker. The crosser should have been put under much more pressure than he was. Stop the cross and you have nothing further to deal with.

Downing's wild slash was less than amateurish.

Bellamy has to start the next game, Downing collecting splinters and give Maxi a go at trying to re-create his form from the end of last season.

And give Carra a break, whether he likes it or not.
The game itself, I thought we deserved to win it and there were patches
of mesmeric play. I remember Adam ping a cross field ball to Bellamy who
put it in the box for Suarez.

However, and this is my real point, sometimes with a lot of the neutral
sanitised commentary that goes with games today, (family-oriented waffle)
the bleedin' obvious gets overlooked e.g. 20 minutes in Norwich (ffs) put
15 or 16 passes together at Anfield.

Now, there does reach a point where certain things are completely unacceptable
and that for me is definitely one. You can play all the pretty football you like,
flicks and lovely nearly what ifs....BUT before all that can happen, the fundamental
is, a newly promoted side from the Championsip does NOT do that to you on
your home patch....

Kenny, I love you, but you cannot be serious. Seriously wtf?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on October 30, 2011, 02:11:17 AM
Much better! (granted WBA, didn't show much fight)

Still, the logic behind Kenny's team is now much clearer, quality,
youth, experience and energy makes a nice Balance!

Henderson's tracking was much better today (need that, imo,
playing 4-4-2), allowing Lucas to make the key interceptions
further infield (fewer holes). Skrtel, lively and concentrated
(i think, playing with a quicker player like Agger (instead of Carra),
let's them share responsibilities across the back more evenly).
Carrol & Suarez causing problems up front! Enrique immense
(some buy!) & Lucas MOTM, imo.

Mainly though, it was our shape when we didn't have the ball
that was impressive! Clarke is earning his crust on the training
pitch. It just shows, imo, if we work on getting the basics (tracking,
pressuring) right, there's enough quality in the side to create
chances up the other end.

The other thing is, the team really looks like there's a lot more to come
from them. Wonder what Comolli is up to ahead of January? :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on October 30, 2011, 08:56:24 PM
Indeed better, tho WBA was surprisingly poor. But then again, you can only beat what's in front of you. I thought we defended very well an didn't give them even a sniff at a semi-chance. That's how you do it!!!

Adam I think had his best game in a red shirt. Also thought we looked more dangerous with Caroll in the team. Well made up for him and he did very well to take that goal.

Suarez can't score to save his life and sometimes it costs us (ManU and Norwich) but sometimes we get away with it as he always have an impact on the game one way or the other.

Henderson and Downing must be considered flops. I know it's quite early and I know Henderson's young an'all, but ffs, they contribute absolutely nothing.

Swansea up then two hard games against Chelsea and ManC. Tottenham's playing well above their genuine ability and also enjoy some luck. They will, just like Newcy, find their true level which will help us. Arsenal's a tad worrying tho.

Oh, and btw, keep that back 4, Kenny. Will you!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 02, 2011, 06:58:02 PM
Seven games unbeaten............................... not bad considering everything............................. ...... ;)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on November 02, 2011, 09:36:56 PM
Seven games unbeaten............................... not bad considering everything............................. ...... ;)

You're so boring Tes.  Much prefer the doom and gloom  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 02, 2011, 11:51:57 PM
The spectre of Chelsea on the horizon... Swansea, Chelsea, Man City, Chelsea

Actually makes for a pretty severe early season test! (Terry vs Suarez, battle of the racists  :D).
Both away from home though....(beat them in the league & play for penos in the Carling cup!).
Apparently, there's been some criticism of Boas

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jonathan_wilson/10/31/avb.chelsea.tactics/index.html

Clarkey, get the notepad out!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 04, 2011, 06:29:55 PM
You're so boring Tes.  Much prefer the doom and gloom  ;D

Carroll should be given away to Marine (that's if they'd take him), Dalglish is clueless and Carra needs to be handed his pension book. Whilst we're at it, let's sell Gerrard, the crock, in January whilst we can at least get a packet of swizzles and half a curly wurly for him.

How am I doing Gurdeep?   :D
Title: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on November 05, 2011, 10:15:13 AM
Not a bad effort my friend.  A pity you had to be so tight on the curly wurly.
Title: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on November 05, 2011, 10:15:20 AM
Not a bad effort my friend.  A pity you had to be so tight on the curly wurly.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 05, 2011, 02:32:27 PM
Today, 6-0 is my prediction!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on November 05, 2011, 03:51:27 PM
Half-time. One-dimensional, errorprone, predictable, immobile, technically poor, what have you.

Henderson needs to be taken off. One reason we'll drop points again against "lesser" opposition is, again, Kenny's inability to realise what it takes to win games. Again, Kuijt's left on the bench at the expense of an inept and overrated Henderson. Carrol can't score to save his life. In short, we're an embarrassment to watch.

Final score 0-0 or 1-1. 4th yer havin' a larf.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on November 05, 2011, 05:16:54 PM
Not that I told you so. Let's be honest about it and admit we're a mid-table team. If there's a Big Four we're certainly not one of the teams. All we got is our illustrious history carved out more than 2 decades ago. I'm just glad people aren't as harsh on Kenny they were on Roy. For all the stick Roy got for splashing out the stunning sum of 3 million on Konchesky and Jovanovic maybe we should look at the tens and tens of millions Kenny wasted on Carrol, Downing and Henderson. Some 75 million spent on what must be said is poor mediocrity and then I'm being generous.

4th is gone. The question now is, can we even challenge for a top 7 spot? Maybe, if we're lucky. ManC, ManU, Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal will no doubt finish at least 7-8 points ahead of us. Newcy I still think is playing well above their level but considering the fixture list their advantage may be too much for us. So 7th should be the realistic goal from now on.

It seems as the fact Kenny's been out of the game for well over a decade is finally catching up. Everybody spent the whole spring stating we're now moving in the right direction on the back of a handfull of games where we were left hoplessly behind. Fact of the matter is this season thus far shows no signs of progress and there's nothing to suggest things will change any time soon.

We've dropped 4 points already at home against newcomers who knows in their hearts it's fairly easy to get away with at least a point from Anfield. Up until the 90th minute the players failed completely to show urgency, will, pride or what have you. That's not good enough and I'm accepting by each game we've become a 2nd rate team. Paradoxically, and as have been the case so many times throughout the years, we will most likely get good results against Chelsea and ManC.

To think Reina saved us on more than one ocassion from losing at home to Swansea is heartbreaking really.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Edward224 on November 05, 2011, 05:45:11 PM
Martin.

SHUT

THE

fork

UP

Thank you.

That's me out of this forum, cheerio.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Edward224 on November 05, 2011, 06:02:49 PM
I've noticed with you that after every single draw or defeat you are on here within 24 hours, but if we win it usually takes you a week.

Enough is enough really.

You seriously need to examine how you read the game because it is poor.

You choose not to give Henderson a proper chance, when younger players to fully judge them takes at least one year, whether you like it or not Henderson is here to stay and the last few games he has been very good.

Carroll's game is perfect for this league. He needs confidence and needs a run of games to get into his best mode.

Both Carroll and Henderson have the potential to be here for the next 10 years. £50m for the pair of them, that is £5m per year which to me looking at them now and their potential seems a great deal to me.

As for not being anywhere near 4th place......well certainly there are 2 spots locked up in the top 4 - both manchester clubs. We are fighting with chelsea, arsenal, spurs and now newcastle for the other 2 spots - to say we are light years behind is a fallacy and pure bs.

Spurs to me are in pole position for 3rd place and Arsenal for 4th place atm, however there is still a long way to go and a lot of points to play for.

We are not a million miles behind them at all. However we are behind them.

It is true that we've drawn two home games against promoted teams, however we've beaten arsenal and everton away this season, whereas we lost both last season, as well as losing 4 games to promoted teams, so it seems to me we are doing better.

Please don't speak bullshit about the King again. Just because he has been out of management for 10 years doesn't lessen his know how. He has been involved in the game all his life and knows more than you or I.

We were never favourites for 4th place this year, fact.

We needed to spend all that money in the summer just to improve the squad and beef up the team and we have upgraded in the positions we needed to.

We will get into the top 4? I don't know. What I do know is that we won't be a million miles off, however the 5 teams we are competing against are all very good teams and I am fed up of your constant negativity towards us.

I am neither positive or negative just realistic. I am not demanding 4th because I believe we should be in the top 4, nor am I being negative in think we have no chance against the other 5 teams and are a million years behind.

Oh and Kuyt btw hasn't got the energy anymore to play in that RM or RW position, Henderson has the energy, creativity and crossing ability to make that position his own, he just needs confidence from his supporters and a chance to develop his game.

Kuyt should be the back up for Carroll as Bellamy is the back up for Suarez.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on November 05, 2011, 06:15:15 PM
Ed. I'm genuinely happy you are content and able to disguise what even Kenny called a disappointing performance to the contrary. Just don't declare me ignorant because I don't share your Tomkinsesque views.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 05, 2011, 06:32:58 PM
however we've beaten arsenal and everton away this season
Dunno, both teams had a player sent off?

Haven't watched the game yet, but i really thought we were going to run riot today...

On paper there's nothing wrong with that team, imo. Quality, experience, youth, energy...
Again, 4-4-2 at home with a quality keeper, mobile defence, holding midfielder, zippy fullbacks,
a passer in the centre, crosser on the wing and a giant up front with a magician should work?
Whether it has gelled yet is the question and the difference that a single player could
make....

Anyway need to download the game!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Edward224 on November 05, 2011, 07:05:22 PM
Ed. I'm genuinely happy you are content and able to disguise what even Kenny called a disappointing performance to the contrary. Just don't declare me ignorant because I don't share your Tomkinsesque views.

I hate Paul Tomkins, so don't tar me in the same brush as him. Thanks.

I never said the performance today wasn't disappointing because it was. All I am doing is pointing out a few things to you that is called realism. Thanks.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 05, 2011, 09:39:30 PM
I hate Paul Tomkins, so don't tar me in the same brush as him. Thanks.
What's wrong with Tomkins? He's a red, has his own views...
and is generally well researched, consistent and I'd say
respected as a commentator on the club.

I used occasionally get a bit bored with all the crazy data,
but he's definitely an old school red (remembers when we used
win titles etc.) and (from memory) I generally agreed with his
opinions on players. It's rare to find someone who gets certain
aspects of a player and whether they fit the club.

I'd read him all the time if his stuff wasn't behind a paywall.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 05, 2011, 11:52:27 PM
Not a bad effort my friend.  A pity you had to be so tight on the curly wurly.

I ate the other half, otherwise the offer would have been higher. I'd also send all the Cadbury's fudge with him, dire stuff.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 05, 2011, 11:58:01 PM
The promoted teams are proving a real banana skin for us this season.

4-4-2 needs to be placed back in the archives with the Magna Carta. It's leaving us for too open in midfield.

If Carroll scores, Downing gets his first assist and we get three points. Fine margins.

I really can't understand why Dalglish has deviated so much from what he was doing in the second half of last season. That was there to be built on, not dismantled and rebuilt differently.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on November 06, 2011, 01:35:30 AM
I really can't understand why Dalglish has deviated so much from what he was doing in the second half of last season. That was there to be built on, not dismantled and rebuilt differently.

Thats the baffling thing in all of these games. In the second half of last season Kenny adopted a pass and move style approach where when we gained possession players poured forward and bust a gut to get themselves into the box. I dont see that so much this season. The pass and move is still there but isnt being played effectively. Its also baffling that the main beneficaries of that approach like Maxi have now been shunned.

I wont change my opinion on the newer players, they still need a season before they can be judged fairly. Their progress to date is probably not where I would have expected it to be. To give an honest assessment of how this season is going for the new players I would say Carroll doesnt look like the same aerial dominating player he was at Newcastle, Henderson looks no better than Spearing did last season, Adam looks worth just about the 7 million pounds we paid for him and Downing is anonimous 75 % of the time. I am still totally optimistic that those players will come good. It just raises the question that maybe Kenny has tried to integrate too many newer players too quickly. Hindsight is always great but maybe he should have had more faith with the likes of Maxi and Spearing and made some of the newer players earn their place in the team. Better yet maybe its time to reintegrate some of the players that performed for him last season in place of whoevers not performing.

Sadly when I watch Liverpool at the moment I cant help but feeling that I could be watching any mid table side where your just not sure which way the result will go. As the season goes on we're definitely not at the same level as Man City, United. Even Chelsea, the rejuvinated Arsenal and Tottenham feel like they are probably a level above us. A run of wins would change that but at the moment we just seem likley to drop points home or away.

Im not sure what Kenny needs to do but whats occuring right now isnt working. We've always had a very good spine to the team, even over the last decade, our central defenders, central midfielders and strikers have been very strong. From Hypia, Henchoz, Carragher, Alonso, Gerrard, Mascherano, Hammann, Owen, Fowler, Torres, Suarez the central areas have been rock solid. It was the peripheral wider areas where we tended to have issue. I dont see that solidity in central defence, I dont see the world class quality in central midfield and at the moment Suarez is the only player stepping up to the mark up front. So I just wonder even though our squad is definitely stronger this season is the spine of the team actually somewhat weak?

Kenny has alot of work to do to get the team where it needs to be. I hope the American owners are patient and give Kenny the time required. We dont want to go down the Chelsea route of changing managers. Hodgson was unlucky to get the sack given the circumstances during which he managed but he was the wrong man for the wrong club. The only way we will know if Kenny is the right man is by giving him time and money.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on November 06, 2011, 06:27:19 AM
Agreed Tes and Juan...
I think the main problem between the second half of last season and this one is that we were on the bare bones last season and now we're supposed to have an embarrassment of 'riches'...

We have made some good acquisitions over the summer with enrique, coates (still a lot of learning to do) and bellamy....they can easily fit into the attacking system of last season...

But the real problem is the expensive 'holy trinity'...can you imagine what rafa would have bought with 75 mil?
Last season we couldn't play Carroll so we didn't have that problem...we had merieles covering for gerrard and we had kuyt and maxi who are far better players than henderson and downing...
Because we've spent so much on the english trinity, kenny has to play them...
but the liverpool way was that players were terrified of getting injured as they thought they'd never get back into the team...competition for places is essential...
these new players need to know that they have to be at their very best to even be in the team...and at the moment they seem a little 'lightweight'...

we're too weak in midfield with downing, lucas, adam and henderson...We need to stick to 4-5-1....if that means turning carroll into supersub status then so be it...
the team is the most important thing and not personal ego's...we need to start playing as a team in order to get top 4...(look at newcastle...they lose their 4 biggest players and they start playing as a team!)
we need to utilise all of our players...
we need to introduce our youngsters once more...remember last season and we were talking about sterling, sosa and the like? That's not even being mentioned now...
if we continue with the current lineup we'll be lucky to get into Europe because there will be too many points dropped against smaller teams...
Which will mean our disgruntled players will be gone..maxi on a free....a bid from inter (as an example) for kuyt...aquilani moves back to italy...and dare i say it our top performers wanting to play champions league...
Any takers on Barca in for suarez to replace an aging david villa?

not a case of 'apocalypse now', just a case of 'apocalypse not quite yet' and so avoidable...if a gap starts appearing though between us and the top 6....then questions will start to be asked no matter who's in charge...


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 06, 2011, 05:03:22 PM
I hear what you're saying Bart, Juan and Tes but think back a month or so. Who would have thought Arsenal could turn around their performances like they've done. Not me and I bet not any of you.

We have 27 games to go and are only 3 pts away from 4th. That doesn't constitute a crisis in my books. Newcastle have only played Arsenal and Spurs from those in the top 7-8 places. Both at home and they beat neither. They still have to play Utd, City, Chelsea and us home and away. I'm not saying they're not playing well but they haven't been seriously tested yet.

There are fine lines between success and failure. Of the 11 times we've hit the woodwork if only a couple of those had gone in we would have won the game instead of drawing it. Yesterday being a classic example where it was easier to score than miss by Carroll.

Apart from City I don't see any team that hasn't gone through a bad patch this season. Everyone gets them. We're unbeaten in 6 and because 2 of those were at home against promoted teams that we didn't beat that constitutes a crisis apparently.

I was at Anfield back in 81 for the first league game after Shanks died. We played Swansea. We drew 2-2 and it took 2 pens by McDermott. Swansea were promoted that season. And that was with a team that comprised Grobbelaar, Neal, A.Kennedy, Thompson, Lawrenson, Whelan, Dalglish, Lee, Johnson (Sheedy 89), McDermott, Souness.

Our first 6 home games that season were W2, D3, L1. We won the title, 4 pts clear of Ipswich.

I'm not going to say we'll win the league but all it takes is a good spell when we win a sequence of games. Just like last season with supposed inferior players to those we have now. They just gelled better probably because most of them played week in week out. As Alan Hansen always said. When you're going through a bad patch just keep playing your best 11. That's what we should do. Crisis? What crisis?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 06, 2011, 08:24:00 PM
They just gelled better probably because most of them played week in week out.
I tend to agree, although i still haven't watched yesterday's game yet.

On paper (i know it's kind of stupid to say) the team should work and it may
just be that they haven't figured out yet how to function as a team (or maybe
they're the wrong players?).

Thinking back to Dalglish's previous tenure. 90% of what that team did was almost
on auto-pilot with the likes of Barnes, Beardsley, Aldridge and Houghton. Houghton
hustling around the centre and starting the attack, Barnes providing the width on the wing,
a bit of trickery and link up play in the final third from Beardsley and Aldridge on the end
of every cross.

Or something like that...it was a rhythm and they did it over and over in each game with
minor variations. I think that we have most of the bits and pieces to be very good, but there's
something missing....a spark somewhere? Not an easy thing to fix, mind....remember Rafa had a
similar problem and at some point, switched Gerrard to play off Torres.

imo, Kuyt is a clever player (people on here are saying he no longer has the energy) who could
play in any team and adapt. I'm not saying that he's the solution but, I think him being sidelined
or marginalised this season to accommodate Henderson may have been premature (it left a gap
somewhere that the team has yet to come to terms with, most likely hustling effectively high up
the pitch...the thing about Kuyt is he works for 90 minutes).
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 06, 2011, 10:38:00 PM
I hear what you're saying Bart, Juan and Tes but think back a month or so. Who would have thought Arsenal could turn around their performances like they've done. Not me and I bet not any of you.

We have 27 games to go and are only 3 pts away from 4th. That doesn't constitute a crisis in my books. Newcastle have only played Arsenal and Spurs from those in the top 7-8 places. Both at home and they beat neither. They still have to play Utd, City, Chelsea and us home and away. I'm not saying they're not playing well but they haven't been seriously tested yet.

There are fine lines between success and failure. Of the 11 times we've hit the woodwork if only a couple of those had gone in we would have won the game instead of drawing it. Yesterday being a classic example where it was easier to score than miss by Carroll.

Apart from City I don't see any team that hasn't gone through a bad patch this season. Everyone gets them. We're unbeaten in 6 and because 2 of those were at home against promoted teams that we didn't beat that constitutes a crisis apparently.

I was at Anfield back in 81 for the first league game after Shanks died. We played Swansea. We drew 2-2 and it took 2 pens by McDermott. Swansea were promoted that season. And that was with a team that comprised Grobbelaar, Neal, A.Kennedy, Thompson, Lawrenson, Whelan, Dalglish, Lee, Johnson (Sheedy 89), McDermott, Souness.

Our first 6 home games that season were W2, D3, L1. We won the title, 4 pts clear of Ipswich.

I'm not going to say we'll win the league but all it takes is a good spell when we win a sequence of games. Just like last season with supposed inferior players to those we have now. They just gelled better probably because most of them played week in week out. As Alan Hansen always said. When you're going through a bad patch just keep playing your best 11. That's what we should do. Crisis? What crisis?

ASI, I don't think anyone is thinking in terms of crisis, but our overall play isn't as crisp as it had been last season and it's debatable whether the players brought in have actually improved the team and taken it on from where it was with the players they've replaced.

Granted, with any European football we weren't going to attract the so-called big names, so we needed to be smarter, bring in the likes of Hyypia, Alonso, Pepe, Arbeloa etc. In other words, make our own stars.
I'm really not sure we've done that. Interestingly, the best of the Summer's purchases has been Enrique (Bellamy not included as he was free) who arguably was a value for money acquisition. It's hard to say the others were.

I think people are looking for signs of promise and hints of progress and finding it too hard to find much. At the moment we seem to be there or there abouts, but a few more weeks of the same and Arsenal and Spurs will have opened up clear daylight.
We're undefeated in seven, but Spurs and Arsenalare putting together good undefeated runs now but they're stringing wins together in that run where as we are are merely remaining undefeated. I'm not even worried about Newcastle (not yet anyway). They're the Sunderland and Bolton from last season.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 06, 2011, 10:47:48 PM
I tend to agree, although i still haven't watched yesterday's game yet.

On paper (i know it's kind of stupid to say) the team should work and it may
just be that they haven't figured out yet how to function as a team (or maybe
they're the wrong players?).
Without knowing what happens on the training pitch we're all guessing. These are talented players but the young ones are perhaps feeling the pressure of expectation. A spell in the reserves was usual back in the 80s and earlier but instant results are expected these days. I'm sure they'll come good.

Quote
...it was a rhythm and they did it over and over in each game with
minor variations. I think that we have most of the bits and pieces to be very good, but there's
something missing....a spark somewhere? Not an easy thing to fix, mind....remember Rafa had a
similar problem and at some point, switched Gerrard to play off Torres.
That's what makes the difference between an average manager and a good one. Spotting the small detail and making subtle changes. In fairness to Henderson he as brought in as Gerrard's understudy but with SG having so few games he hasn't made as much progress as expected.

Quote
imo, Kuyt is a clever player (people on here are saying he no longer has the energy) who could
play in any team and adapt. I'm not saying that he's the solution but, I think him being sidelined
or marginalised this season to accommodate Henderson may have been premature (it left a gap
somewhere that the team has yet to come to terms with, most likely hustling effectively high up
the pitch...the thing about Kuyt is he works for 90 minutes).

Agree totally with that. He scored highly in Fantasy Football last season and he still has high energy levels. I don't like the way he's been sidelined.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 06, 2011, 10:54:56 PM
ASI, I don't think anyone is thinking in terms of crisis, but our overall play isn't as crisp as it had been last season and it's debatable whether the players brought in have actually improved the team and taken it on from where it was with the players they've replaced.
Not you Tes but I do have someone in mind. Those performances last season came out of the blue and confidence was a huge factor. But tiredness barged in with 2 games to go and we saw the results. With a new midfield this season it shouldn't be surprising results are a bit variable but at least there have been some good performances. And in reality we've only had the one horror show at Spurs.

Quote
Granted, with any European football we weren't going to attract the so-called big names, so we needed to be smarter, bring in the likes of Hyypia, Alonso, Pepe, Arbeloa etc. In other words, make our own stars.
January should be interesting. I'm sure the squad will be strengthened.


Quote
I think people are looking for signs of promise and hints of progress and finding it too hard to find much. At the moment we seem to be there or there abouts, but a few more weeks of the same and Arsenal and Spurs will have opened up clear daylight.
We're undefeated in seven, but Spurs and Arsenalare putting together good undefeated runs now but they're stringing wins together in that run where as we are are merely remaining undefeated. I'm not even worried about Newcastle (not yet anyway). They're the Sunderland and Bolton from last season.

I know draws and almost as bad as losses but Spurs et al will have hiccups. Spurs were very lucky today and 1-3 totally flattered them. With Harry out for several weeks it will be interesting to see how they get on especially when crucial Europa games have to be mixed with Prem ones. There's a lot of  water to go under that bridge...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on November 06, 2011, 11:53:50 PM
Theres alot of valid points been made here, Tes I agree not everybody sees this as a crisis and everyone is realistic enough to know unless we start winning, not even perfroming well but just picking up 3 points soon then we wont even be contenders for the final champions league spot.

Unfortunately being unbeaten doesnt matter much in this league. The number of wins across a season are what makes the difference between finishing 5th and finishing 2nd or 1st. Drawing at home to Sunderland, Norwich and Swansea is as good as two defeats out of the three which is not champions league qualification form not to mind any higher.

My issue at the moment is I dont know how Kenny is going to get passed this current poor run of form. How does he stop the side consistently getting cut open at the back while not being able to convert their chances up front. Breaking it down further we have a defence that leaks goals, we have an ineffective midfield and a misfiring forward line. How do you fix that? Persevere with the same team and hope it clicks? Try different tactics? Change the team? Obviously this is the test of Kennys management skills. I think he will eventually find the right answer but right now I havent a clue what the solution is.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on November 07, 2011, 12:11:22 AM
On another note while I watched the Liverpool Swansea game a thought occurred to me. What is our insistence with getting the ball into the box at head height or above when at times we may have one man in the box being surrounded by 3 or more opposing players? Surely the chances of scoring from those situations are slim but we continue to do it. Im not talking about long punts from defence but players whipping balls in from outside the 18 yard area. And its not just a case that it only occurs when Andy Carrols in the box. Its something you rarely ever see Barcelona do. They will keep the ball and generally try to find a measured pass on the floor to another player making a run. They dont constantly whip balls into the box in the hope that a player will get a head to it. I dont want us to start attempting to walk the ball into the net like Arsenal or Im not suggesting we have the personnel to play like Barcelona but I would like to see clever football being played in the opposing teams area instead of what seems to be an awful lot of hit and hope at times.

As I say just a thought.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on November 07, 2011, 01:24:21 PM
Liverpool's Daniel Agger has warned Liverpool must raise their game if they are to avoid yet another season without Champions League football.

The Denmark international pulled no punches in his assessment of his side's goalless draw with Swansea at the weekend - a result that means the Reds have now failed to pick up maximum points in four of six Premier League outings at Anfield this season.

"Sometimes we looked like headless chickens running around after the ball," Agger said

Despite their indifferent form, Kenny Dalglish's men are just three points off the Champions League berths in sixth place - but with games against Chelsea and leaders Manchester City looming, Agger admits now is the time to raise the standard.

"If we play like this, we won't do it [qualify for the Champions League]," he said.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 08, 2011, 12:38:45 AM
Liverpool's Daniel Agger has warned Liverpool must raise their game if they are to avoid yet another season without Champions League football.

The Denmark international pulled no punches in his assessment of his side's goalless draw with Swansea at the weekend - a result that means the Reds have now failed to pick up maximum points in four of six Premier League outings at Anfield this season.

"Sometimes we looked like headless chickens running around after the ball," Agger said

Despite their indifferent form, Kenny Dalglish's men are just three points off the Champions League berths in sixth place - but with games against Chelsea and leaders Manchester City looming, Agger admits now is the time to raise the standard.

"If we play like this, we won't do it [qualify for the Champions League]," he said.

Tell it to your team mates, Daniel, not the national media.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 08, 2011, 12:44:21 AM
Finally watched the game!

That lad Henderson gave away possession every time
he got the ball in the first half. Must be nerves or the
weight of expectation he feels playing in front of the
home crowd. I'm surprised his introduction to the team
has been botched so badly.

Play the experienced guy, introduce the understudy
gradually...

Forgot their keeper was so good, at times though
a point for us felt generous?? This Swansea team
came close to giving us a footballing lesson in the
second half!

4-4-2 needs to be placed back in the archives
with the Magna Carta. It's leaving us for too open
in midfield.

Tend to agree Tes, based on Saturday, but i think Gerrard
and Lucas in a 4-4-2 at home is still an option?

It's not all doom and gloom though, I liked the display of
character in the last 5 minutes, likes of Lucas, Agger, Kuyt,
even Johnson. I also think Adam played 2 super passes to
release Downing earlier in the game.

Liverpool's Daniel Agger has warned Liverpool must raise their game if they are to avoid yet another season without Champions League football.

Agger's the man to turn things around. He's a class act, imo.

Anyway, I'm happy with the quality that we have in the side
at the moment and reminded of that quote from the Damned United:

"You're a genius, Pete.
Bloody genius. How did you see it?
Don't know. It's just obvious.

McGovern in midfield.
Mackay at the back. O'Hare up front.
 
It's the skewer, isn't it?
In the shish kebab.
 
Beautiful.
 
A thing of fornicating beauty."


It will be when Kenny gets it right!!!!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 08, 2011, 08:19:27 PM
Theres alot of valid points been made here, Tes I agree not everybody sees this as a crisis and everyone is realistic enough to know unless we start winning, not even perfroming well but just picking up 3 points soon then we wont even be contenders for the final champions league spot.

Unfortunately being unbeaten doesnt matter much in this league. The number of wins across a season are what makes the difference between finishing 5th and finishing 2nd or 1st. Drawing at home to Sunderland, Norwich and Swansea is as good as two defeats out of the three which is not champions league qualification form not to mind any higher.

My issue at the moment is I dont know how Kenny is going to get passed this current poor run of form. How does he stop the side consistently getting cut open at the back while not being able to convert their chances up front. Breaking it down further we have a defence that leaks goals, we have an ineffective midfield and a misfiring forward line. How do you fix that? Persevere with the same team and hope it clicks? Try different tactics? Change the team? Obviously this is the test of Kennys management skills. I think he will eventually find the right answer but right now I havent a clue what the solution is.

It's a real problem isn't it, Juan. Confidence looks to be in short supply with some players, but if they're dropped what does that do to their confidence. If we wait and let them play themselves back into form/confidence then will we have lost ground and given ourselves a mountain to climb later in the season?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on November 11, 2011, 11:23:25 AM
Tell it to your team mates, Daniel, not the national media.

Apparently Steve Nicol has come out and reiterated your comments Tes. Probably just frustration out of Agger but he definitely needs to keep stuff like that in house and confront/converse with the players in question themselves. He risks putting a strain on the dressing room the way hes gone about it.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on November 12, 2011, 12:15:48 AM
Suarez got 4 tonight. We need to compliment his quality with more players of his level. At the moment we have some good potential and some fine players but Suarez is the only outfield player we have whose form is consistently top drawer. Surround him with similar quality and we will go places. Dont and he will be off to Spain within 3 seasons. To think we were 48 hours from having Suarez and Torres as our front pairing, that potentially could have been devastating .
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 19, 2011, 02:44:09 AM
Gee, looking at the squad lists ahead of Sunday:

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2011/11/18/1321629159641/Chelsea-v-Liverpool-001.jpg)

Chelsea have a really attacking formation & with Meireles pulling strings?
It's been said elsewhere that they complement this with a high defensive
line (makes sense, given that none of their 6 midfielder/forwards strikes
me as being particularly defensive, though, tbh i don't know much about
Ramires, except that he's no Essien! :) )

Imo, away from home, our 4-4-2 looks prehistoric. I think we need Lucas sitting
in the hole in front of 2 mobile central defenders. The problem is further up the
pitch there's no Gerrard to disrupt their playmakers. I'm expecting a tactical
decision to address this...Surely it has to be 1 up front?? Should we play Jayo?
There's been talk about Bellamy starting on the wing and using his pace to get
in behind the high line?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on November 19, 2011, 11:45:24 AM
Well hopefully we'll see a bit more of Downing after his confidence boosting performance for England on tuesday, i also think the pace of bellamy and suarez can provide a great attack against the likes of alex and terry....
kuyt has to play..
so i don't see much in the way of space for henderson or carroll...apart from subs...and only bring them on when we're like 3-0 up or something...
If we play suarez, caroll, downing adam lucas henderson then it doesn't bear thinking about...
Meireles vs lucas should be an interesting tussle...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 19, 2011, 08:25:58 PM
Agreed, Barticus, Downing needs to start showing more than he has done so far.

I'd leave Carroll on the bench and bring in Spearing alongside Lucas to make up for Adam's lack of mobility and and defensive capability.
Dirk needs to start as he's our lucky charm against the bigger teams.

Despite all that money spent in the Summer, our squad still looks short on quality and goals. Granted, things weren't going to be sorted in one Summer window but just how much stronger, in reality, is our squad.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 19, 2011, 10:45:31 PM
Agreed, Barticus, Downing needs to start showing more than he has done so far.

I'd leave Carroll on the bench and bring in Spearing alongside Lucas to make up for Adam's lack of mobility and and defensive capability.
Dirk needs to start as he's our lucky charm against the bigger teams.

Despite all that money spent in the Summer, our squad still looks short on quality and goals. Granted, things weren't going to be sorted in one Summer window but just how much stronger, in reality, is our squad.

That's what I was thinking Tes! Bring Jay in alongside Lucas to break up that attacking
fluidity Chelsea have. Adam will just end up getting sent off and we don't really need
the luxury of a passer at the expense of not having the ball  :)

Further forward though I don't mind so long as there is pace in the final third e.g.

                                                         Reina
                              Kelly      Skrtel               Agger   Enrique
                                                 Lucas - Spearing
                                      Downing - Suarez - Bellamy
                                                      Carroll

With overlapping full backs gives us a nice balance, away from home, between pace
and power up front!

I don't like the idea of Dropping Carroll because we lose out on a bit of height upfront
(Suarez, Bellamy & Kuyt aren't the tallest).

I also think we'll see Kuyt at some point & maybe Henderson late on...

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on November 20, 2011, 08:00:24 PM
There you go! Play the same way as we did in the 2nd half of last season and look at the result....adam swapped for meireles who was pretty good today...and maxi and kuyt restored..

caroll, downing and henderson on the bench....though thought henderson played well though when the others tired...and played intelligently...

watched this down in the spanish local....lights went out just after sturridge scored...had to ring my sis in england at 7 to get the result...before finally the lights come on at 8.30....the joys of being in spain...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 20, 2011, 08:44:00 PM
What's worrying is that with Dirk and Maxi restored at the expense of players who seems as though they were brought in to replace them, we improved. So have we improved on Dirk and Maxi with our Summer recruitment or not?
Bellamy's another. We look better with him than without him, but all 3 players that seemingly make us look better are all at the wrong end of their careers.

Credit to Glenn Johnson who took his goal with the coolness any striker would be proud of.

As good as the win is, it seems to be raising more questions than it's answering.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on November 20, 2011, 10:15:49 PM
What's worrying is that with Dirk and Maxi restored at the expense of players who seems as though they were brought in to replace them, we improved. So have we improved on Dirk and Maxi with our Summer recruitment or not?
Bellamy's another. We look better with him than without him, but all 3 players that seemingly make us look better are all at the wrong end of their careers.

Credit to Glenn Johnson who took his goal with the coolness any striker would be proud of.

As good as the win is, it seems to be raising more questions than it's answering.

I agree and disagree Tes. I think it probably proves something we have been saying of late that maybe Kenny was too quick to integrate the new signings into the team without them proving any form and also that he was probably too quick to dispense of the likes of Maxi.

The good thing is he has now realised the error of his ways and we looked the better for it. Im still not sure Kuyt should be a starter. By 60 he looked flat out on his feet and i dont know how he was left on the pitch. And as good as Johnsons goal was I think his performance confirmed two things 1) he cant defend and 2) he should be tried wide right because hes quality going forward.

Todays performance also confirms that Suarez and Bellamy are our form strike partnership. What this means for some of our new arrivals is that if they want to force their way into the team they are going to need to up their game. Surely this can only be good for competition in the squad.

Lets hope we can carry through the first half display from today to next weeks game against City.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 21, 2011, 12:12:12 AM
Dunno, take the points but...

Chelsea were a shambles in the first half, tactical blunder by Villas Boas.
Credit to our lads, we bit into them where they were weak and got the
goal. I'd argue that it was commitment and experience (Kuyt and Maxi
tended, imo, to retain what possession they got in the first half & Bellamy
put the pressure on the Chelsea backs) rather than quality that did it for us.
Lucas had a few big tackles as well, which away from home always helps!
(thought he was unlucky with the card).

Second half was a different story, Chelsea battered us down the left, Johnson
at fault imo. Reina made a fabulous save to keep us in it!! Captain's save!
Adam dawdling for their goal (not good enough!), still he made up for it with
the pass for the winner as did Johnson.

I was happy to see some changes made to the side but am under no illusions
that we have sorted out the problems we've been having. Hopefully, we'll get
through the next two games with what we had today (disciplined all round
team performance with moments of individual brilliance) and sort things out in
the games that follow?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 21, 2011, 08:46:43 PM
Adam dawdling for their goal (not good enough!), still he made up for it with
the pass for the winner as did Johnson.

I'm confused Ed. Does that mean he is now good enough? Everyone makes mistakes. It's how you react after making one that determines how good a player you are. I'm more than pleased with Adam and everyone else in the team yesterday.

I'm delighted with the result. SB used to be one of our bogey grounds but in the last 4 years we've won there 3 times. We've played Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs all away and taken 6 out of 9 points. You've got to be pleased with that.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 22, 2011, 02:10:09 AM
Hey ASI, I was watching the game yesterday and dreading if we lost,
would have meant we were 3 points above Villa and QPR, 5 above
West Brom (Hodgson) with Newcastle above us.

About Adam, I thought that he was at fault for their goal and it's something
I hate to see, a slow player not reacting to danger. If he's to feature in a
two man midfield, it's stuff like that that needs to be right, imo. I think he's
doing his best, but the standard of playing midfield for us is very very high. He
flighted a beauty for the winner but his corners all day were brutal. In fact
it's stuff like that that I would much rather have seen against Chelsea
yesterday, a proper threat from corners and set pieces. Away from home we
should know that if we go to the trouble of winning a corner there's a
reasonable chance of a goal scoring opportunity.

So yeah, maybe it's confusing I swing both ways when it comes to Adam but
remain yet to be convinced.

I think Kenny made two changes, kept Johnson in the side and got a result
against a poor Chelsea side. The team showed character which I'm very pleased about.

Imo, we either start playing Carroll again (before he turns into Babel, seriously the
way that ball gets stuck under his feet reminds me of Babel) because the whole
team is built around him or go back to what was working last season i.e. fluidity in
the final third and a strong defensive midfield.

If we can get over the next two games by keeping our wits about us, I think our
season is back on, but they're gonna be really really tough games!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 22, 2011, 07:11:23 PM
Hi Ed,

Yes he lost the ball for their goal but a lot more work was required before they scored. In comparison he tackled their lad and got the ball for our first goal and as you said, flighted a cracking pass for the second.

Garth Crooks included him in his team of the week. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/9643797.stm  Some interesting stats I didn't know.

I'd love to see Johnson at RW with Kelly at RB and each covering the other when one ventured forward.

Carroll is turning into an enigma. He clearly has self discipline issues. Needs to find himself a good woman and settle down! In the meantime we have to stay with the same team for Sunday and then use all 3 subs to help keep key players fresh for Tuesday at SB. Carroll will feature a part in both games.

The top 7 now have a 7 point gap from the rest. 7 into 4 doesn't go so we need to keep the pressure on. Newcastle will falter but I'm hoping that so will Chelsea and Arsenal who rely so heavily on RvP.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 22, 2011, 11:20:02 PM
Johnson actually played right midfield/wide right for Pompey under 'Arry the season before he joined us and was successful there. 'Arry, as with Bale also, isn't afraid of looking at a player's strengths and weaknesses and then trying them in a different position that would appear to deal with their qualities/flaws more effectively.

I don't see we have anything to lose and plenty to gain. He of course would be attacking from a more advanced position, but it's normally the final third where you can do the most damage.

I think the form of Bellers and the type of player that he is has shown how well two 'small uns' can combine as a forward partnership and it's technique that will undermine the Premier League's yard dog centre halves and not brute strength of a target man. Again it shows the questionable nature of signing a target man and a young inexperienced one at that.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on November 25, 2011, 06:57:14 AM
Adam was involved in all three goals so if it means he helps us create twice as many as the opponents score I'm fine with that. Seriously tho I thought it was maybe our best performance of the season. We didn't panic when Chelsea came out for second half. Yet this terrible inconsistency has to stop.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 25, 2011, 06:49:33 PM
We didn't panic when Chelsea came out for second half.

Good point, though teams that try to integrate so many new players, like we have done, will go through periods of inconsistancy. Ideally, you don't try to integrate more than two new first teamers at any one time, however, it's been a long time since the word 'ideal' could be associated with much at our club.

Our next two games will tell us a lot about where we are and where and with what we are capable of finishing this season.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 25, 2011, 10:42:58 PM
I think a bit too much is been made of this Chelsea win...They
were rubbish in the first half and Pepe made a super save
to deny them the lead in the second...

There were impressive aspects to the win, but I'm not getting
carried away ahead of the City game.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 26, 2011, 06:36:44 PM
I think a bit too much is been made of this Chelsea win...They
were rubbish in the first half and Pepe made a super save
to deny them the lead in the second...

There were impressive aspects to the win, but I'm not getting
carried away ahead of the City game.

Are any of us getting carried away before tomorrow? Only a fool would. It will be a tough match but here's an interesting stat. City have only kept 4 clean sheets in their 12 games. They rely on scoring (obvious I know) but our defence is as tight as theirs so it won't be easy for them.

I'll be disappointed if we don't win. I always am irrespective of the opposition. But after the Spurs and Chelsea wins today we really need 3 pts to keep in touch with the top 4. I still think Ballotelli is a potential weak link with his temprament. How I'd love Bellamy to wind him up. And the crowd needs to do its bit. The atmospheres haven't been good at recent home games.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 26, 2011, 08:23:30 PM
Are any of us getting carried away before tomorrow? Only a fool would. It will be a tough match but here's an interesting stat. City have only kept 4 clean sheets in their 12 games. They rely on scoring (obvious I know) but our defence is as tight as theirs so it won't be easy for them.

I'll be disappointed if we don't win. I always am irrespective of the opposition. But after the Spurs and Chelsea wins today we really need 3 pts to keep in touch with the top 4. I still think Ballotelli is a potential weak link with his temprament. How I'd love Bellamy to wind him up. And the crowd needs to do its bit. The atmospheres haven't been good at recent home games.

Agreed we need a win, don't care how we get it!
Agreed the crowd needs to be like Napoli were!

I agree that we have a reasonable defense at the
moment, Enrique has slotted in nicely and doesn't
fear anyone, Agger's a good centre half and offers
us something for corners and bringing the ball forward,
Skrtel has, imo, improved under Dalglish & Clarke,
Lucas is generally solid as a rock and can play
against the big teams. Johnson though...?? lol that
lad can't defend, imo.

Dunno, wouldn't under-rate Balotelli, he scored a
cracker against United.

Anyway, we're the home team and I think that's one
of the secrets playing against City... sustained aggression! :)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 27, 2011, 06:36:42 PM
Decent result today considering City's start to the league season, but don't you just have that nagging feeling of 'if only...............'.

Wherever Stewart Downing left his composure in front of goal he needs to get himself back there and retrieve it. He's been lashing at shots all season when composed placement would have seen him with two or three goals to his name.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on November 27, 2011, 07:43:49 PM
I guess you'd have to be pleased to see us totally outplay the pacesetters for 60 minutes, yet I can't help but feel that Kenny's coaching yet again cost us dear points.

I was heartbroken to see Henderson start for us. Furthermore I was extremly disappointed to see us start with a 4-5-1 formation at home. Kompany was lucky to score and so was Charlie. Yet it remains a question whether Kenny's the right man for us. One third into the season there's no genuine progression to be identified. One could say our away stats is better this term with a few decent wins to WBA and Chelsea. However, as long as our homerecord echoes that of Bolton or Wigan we can just dream of a top 4 finish.

Until Kenny realise what's his best starting XI we'll continue to drop silly points. I think it was a criminal decision to keep the inept, backwords-passing, "don't pass me I don't want the ball", too inexperienced Henderson at the expense of Kuijt. Also, Downing really was another misbuy. Good thingy Kenny's last name isn't spelled Hodgson or he'd be lynched.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on November 27, 2011, 07:56:20 PM
Decent result today considering City's start to the league season, but don't you just have that nagging feeling of 'if only...............'.

Wherever Stewart Downing left his composure in front of goal he needs to get himself back there and retrieve it. He's been lashing at shots all season when composed placement would have seen him with two or three goals to his name.

I thought it was a good performance against a very talented Man City team. We contained Man City very well throughout while always looking dangerous ourselves. Our passing was sharp with exception of a few stray passes that could have cost us from Adam and Enrique. I thought we used little triangles very well. Adam really looks as if hes starting to believe hes good enough for a club like LFC and if Lucas could maintain that sort of consistency nobody would question his place.  I often felt Dirk can slow our play down but today I thought his movement with the ball was excellent.

Maxi was very unlucky not to be in the starting line-up and until Downing proves himself Maxi deserves to start. I also think Henderson needs to earn his place in the starting eleven. He is going to be a great player for us in the future but Im not sure he deserves to be starting just yet.

Glad to see our back 4 is becoming settled although I think we could improve the team even more by bringing Kelly into defence and pushing Johnson in the right mid.  All in all disappointing we didnt win but a good performance and starting to look like the pass and move approach is being adopted well again. Now to start  beating the lesser teams............
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on November 27, 2011, 08:00:34 PM
I guess you'd have to be pleased to see us totally outplay the pacesetters for 60 minutes, yet I can't help but feel that Kenny's coaching yet again cost us dear points.

I was heartbroken to see Henderson start for us. Furthermore I was extremly disappointed to see us start with a 4-5-1 formation at home. Kompany was lucky to score and so was Charlie. Yet it remains a question whether Kenny's the right man for us. One third into the season there's no genuine progression to be identified. One could say our away stats is better this term with a few decent wins to WBA and Chelsea. However, as long as our homerecord echoes that of Bolton or Wigan we can just dream of a top 4 finish.

Until Kenny realise what's his best starting XI we'll continue to drop silly points. I think it was a criminal decision to keep the inept, backwords-passing, "don't pass me I don't want the ball", too inexperienced Henderson at the expense of Kuijt. Also, Downing really was another misbuy. Good thingy Kenny's last name isn't spelled Hodgson or he'd be lynched.

Martin I would expect Kenny and the team would kick on from the last two results. Our football looks to be improving again. Kenny probably made the mistake of not making the new players work harder for their place but hopefully hes learned and we can go on a decent run now. We are well placed and if we can start winning games we will be in with a good shout for fourth.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 27, 2011, 08:56:03 PM
Juan comes closest to my view of the game but I can't believe no-one has mentioned Harts' saves near the end especially the one from Carroll.   :o

Considering City have mauled several teams this season including Manure I think we played really well after the first 20 mins. City can consider themselves lucky to go away with a point. Yet again, the oppositions best player was their 'keeper.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 27, 2011, 10:39:39 PM
Yet again, the oppositions best player was their 'keeper.

 :D I was trying to forget that point, ASI, as it's becoming a rather too regular occurrence at Anfield this season.

I guess such a famous ground either has a cowering or inspiring affect on players, especially goalkeepers.

Nice to see Joe Hart's applauding of the Kop and their reaction.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 27, 2011, 11:04:47 PM
:D I was trying to forget that point, ASI, as it's becoming a rather too regular occurrence at Anfield this season.

I guess such a famous ground either has a cowering or inspiring affect on players, especially goalkeepers.

Nice to see Joe Hart's applauding of the Kop and their reaction.

The Kop have always been appreciative of good football. It's what makes our ground different to all the rest.

Just watched the highlights on MoTD2 and I forgot Hart's save from Adam in the first half. Yes Tes, it is exasperating that visiting goalkeepers play so well against us but we should also remember Pepe played well too. A couple of times I thought he had lost it but the delaying tactics against Silva were superb allowing time for 3 defenders to man the line.

If Silva had been ours how much stick would be have got from this forum?

Carroll, Maxi, Bellamy, Carragher, Kelly, Robinson, Flanaghan should all have a good chance for Tuesday's game. Hopefully the rest will have some energy available.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 28, 2011, 02:09:47 AM
Happy enough  :D

Lucas MOTM, stood up to them all afternoon, can't ask for more than that!
(Actually, bit premature here, but the Lucas-Henderson partnership looks
a mouth-watering prospect for the future. I can see midfield dominance
there!). Reina, awesome again!

So yeah, delighted with the team performance, it has to be a team at the moment
because we're short in one or two areas still! I think we get away with playing
Johnson at right-back because Kuyt and Lucas do a covering job and to be fair
Glen gives that extra dimension going forward (makes up a bit for what Kuyt can
lack on the wing sometimes!) and has a sweet enough touch for a defender!

Similarly, I think one of the main reasons why Carroll is on the bench (ok, GOALS!)
is because he gives us nothing in terms of pressuring high up the pitch. He's a
classic target man and, to be frank, has more to be worrying about at the moment!

Why I'm happy is because, it's clear there's enough character and quality in the side
and there are options on the bench to tweak things if needed.

I'll be gutted if we lose to Chelsea, but c'mon, it's a big ask to expect a result away
against quality opposition (Kenny needs to channel Rafa for this one methinks!)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on November 28, 2011, 01:39:07 PM
Martin I would expect Kenny and the team would kick on from the last two results. Our football looks to be improving again. Kenny probably made the mistake of not making the new players work harder for their place but hopefully hes learned and we can go on a decent run now. We are well placed and if we can start winning games we will be in with a good shout for fourth.

Hmm, not sure I agree with this. We struggle enormously to score and it ain't just down to bad luck. Also, we always tend to carve out decent results against the top sides. So I'm not that convinced our footy's improving. I want us to go on a 5-6 game winning streak before I believe it, and then I'm not talking about the ususal run in April when we're trailing the pacesetters by 20 or so points.

I agree, however, Henderson and Downing is getting more games than they deserve. Even my manc mate called and said he was impressed by us playing virtually with one man down for the entire game. + I don't think playing Suarez alone upfront will win us a single game this season. Every time Kuijt got into a more forward position we created a chance. Still doubt whether Kenny's right for us.

Forgot to mention I was mighty pleased and impressed by Lucas. Finall he stepped forward and took responsibility together with a great performing Adam (tho he was a tad reckless with the ball the first half hour).
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 28, 2011, 10:12:12 PM
Also, we always tend to carve out decent results against the top sides.
Yeah, this is terrible, we need to stop doing this....Losing against
the top sides is the clearest way forward  :)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 29, 2011, 12:56:32 AM

If Silva had been ours how much stick would be have got from this forum?

In his defence it came at him from the wrong side for a left footer (coming from the right and letting it go across your body and then striking it is an easier technique than striking it when it comes from the same side as the foot you'd strike it with) and it was slightly into his feet rather than a touch in front, but as you say, ASI, Pepe was superb in delay and distracting him. Super keeper sweeper.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on November 29, 2011, 02:56:22 AM
In his defence it came at him from the wrong side for a left footer (coming from the right and letting it go across your body and then striking it is an easier technique than striking it when it comes from the same side as the foot you'd strike it with) and it was slightly into his feet rather than a touch in front, but as you say, ASI, Pepe was superb in delay and distracting him. Super keeper sweeper.

I think the thing is that we now have people on the pitch who can
make a difference in pressurised situations: Reina, Lucas, Agger &
maybe Enrique spring to mind. City are the top team in the division
at the moment and it's guaranteed (despite their setback against Napoli)
they would have walked all over a lesser team. Silva's a class act
who would normally have put that ball away in his sleep. It's a
measure of the difficult afternoon he was having from our lads that he
hesitated and made the wrong decision.

It's been nice having Carra & Gerrard out for one reason, because this
time (for the first time) players are stepping up.

Let's be honest about it, Henderson can't tackle at the level required
in the Premier league yet (neither can Adam, imo). What was great
about yesterday is that Henderson got a game because (as far as
I can see) Gerrard and Bellamy were out. That's the way it should be.

What Jordan did yesterday is, he did his best, put pressure on the opposition
high up the pitch. That's enough at this stage from him (anyone who's seen the
level at which Lucas now plays may remember he couldn't tackle and didn't know
where to position himself when he first started out with us).

The point is you can coach tackling and positioning and a lot of it comes with
experience. BUT YOU CAN'T REALLY COACH WHAT HENDERSON HAS, HIS NATURAL
ATHLETICISM. The only question about him is whether he is mentally tough
the way Lucas is.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 30, 2011, 08:13:59 PM
Liverpool's Lucas fears scan will reveal cruciate ligament injury

Andy Hunter Wednesday 30 November 2011 19.22 GMT


Liverpool are anxiously awaiting the outcome of a scan on Lucas Leiva's knee, amid concerns the influential midfielder could be out for the rest of the season.

The Brazil international was carried off on a stretcher minutes from the end of Liverpool's Carling Cup quarter-final victory at Chelsea on Tuesday night, following a collision with Ryan Bertrand. His manager, Kenny Dalglish, refused to speculate on the extent of the injury after the 2-0 win, and the 24-year-old is not expected to have the scan until Thursday. However, Lucas, who remains on crutches, fears he has suffered serious damage to the knee and that he faces a lengthy spell on the sidelines. His season could be over if the scan confirms a ruptured cruciate ligament and a six-month recovery period.

Lucas's form and reputation has been transformed at Liverpool in the past two seasons and his loss would be a major setback to Dalglish, as his side look to build on two impressive wins at Stamford Bridge in nine days plus the encouraging home performance against Manchester City on Sunday.

Far from the maligned figure of Rafael Benítez's final year in charge at Anfield, Lucas is now recognised as an invaluable member of the Liverpool team and has been virtually ever-present under Dalglish. With Steven Gerrard absent with an ankle problem, and not in line for an imminent return, plus Alberto Aquilani on loan at Milan, the possible long-term absence of Lucas would heighten responsibility on his fellow midfielders Charlie Adam, Jordan Henderson and Jay Spearing to maintain Liverpool's pursuit of Champions League qualification.

With numbers potentially light in central midfield, Liverpool have taken the precaution of recalling Jonjo Shelvey from his successful loan spell at Blackpool. The 19-year-old scored six goals in nine Championship appearances for Ian Holloway's side, including a hat-trick in the 5-0 defeat of Leeds United, but has returned to Anfield as a consequence of Lucas's injury.

The Blackpool manager said: "Obviously this is a setback to us as Jonjo has done ever so well in his short time with us. We knew that Liverpool had the recall option on him and it is only the unfortunate injury to Lucas that has prompted them to take this course of action."

Holloway has not ruled out re-signing Shelvey on loan when the transfer window reopens. He added: "We will be in regular contact with Liverpool about trying to bring him back in January should Liverpool's injuries clear up."


If it is an ACL injury he's definately out for the season and could be a doubt for the start of next season depending on the severity and how his re-hab pans out.

Seeing as we were short of depth (at least for long term cover), we really need to look for a replacement in January.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on November 30, 2011, 08:48:22 PM
Its such a pity about Lucas.

I have never been his biggest fan but he has really stepped up a level in the last few games especially. Hes worked hard to get to his current level of performance so lets hope if he is sidelined for a long while that his road back isnt a long one.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 30, 2011, 09:49:17 PM
Is Jay Spearing up to the task? Short, controlled aggression and keen. If not then I'm struggling to think who else could fit that role.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 30, 2011, 09:58:58 PM
Is Jay Spearing up to the task? Short, controlled aggression and keen. If not then I'm struggling to think who else could fit that role.

That's the problem. Adam isn't as defensively capable as Alonso was, Shelvey isn't really a defensive midfielder or at least that not his primary strength, so it leaves Jay Spearing. Hard working, yes, but does he have the positional awareness or the physicality to be the defensive mainstay of the midfield. I think we need to look to January to fill the hole and try to get there with the damage limited as possible.

Dalglish's biggest test so far will be solving this puzzle.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 30, 2011, 10:02:20 PM
Tes, I'm not disagreeing that a January replacement may be required. But Spearing could do a job until then I'm sure. Agreed Adam and Shelvey aren't that kind of player.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on November 30, 2011, 10:53:33 PM
Tes, I'm not disagreeing that a January replacement may be required. But Spearing could do a job until then I'm sure. Agreed Adam and Shelvey aren't that kind of player.

Aurelio has also played there for both us and Valencia, so there may be an occasional option there.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on November 30, 2011, 11:02:00 PM
Spearing has done well whenever hes played since Kennys come in.

Aurelio maybe cover for left back but i dont see him as a midfield enforcer. He'd last less than two games in the role before he would be on the treatment table himself.

To buy or not to buy in january? Maybe its time to see whose available on loan. Is Flamini still getting a game at Milan? How about that Danish guy Poulsen ............. :P
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 01, 2011, 03:52:11 PM
Lucas out for rest of season, according to the Beeb...
A major setback, imo. F  U  C  K  :'(
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 01, 2011, 06:00:38 PM
Either Spearing or Henderson can do a job there. Whether they'll do as good a job as Lucas has only Kenny and Steve will know.

I like Jay as he's a terrier-type player who will never let go of a bone. And being short helps him to twist and turn quicker. He's not dissimilar to Masch in that respect.

Henderson is better in central midfield but I wouldn't know if he could break up play. It's all well and good going into the transfer market in January for a quality player but what happens to that player next season when you would expect Lucas to get the nod?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on December 02, 2011, 06:29:09 PM
Sad about Lucas but we shall rise from adversity!

How about playing Coates as defensive midfielder?? He's got a good passing range and er...can defend!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 02, 2011, 07:07:12 PM
Sad about Lucas but we shall rise from adversity!

How about playing Coates as defensive midfielder?? He's got a good passing range and er...can defend!

I see him more as a central defender than a midfielder but I'm open to persuasion. Tall players tend not to end up as holding midfielders. Mikel, Masch et al are all medium sized presumably so they can twist and turn and close down quickly.

I still favour Spearing and as Kenny has come out and said today he's not looking to buy in the Jan window it looks to be either him or maybe Henderson.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 02, 2011, 08:36:18 PM
Is Flamini still getting a game at Milan?

That's a very interesting shout, Juan.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 02, 2011, 08:43:54 PM
It's all well and good going into the transfer market in January for a quality player but what happens to that player next season when you would expect Lucas to get the nod?

It would add strength (ala when John Wark could only get a game from the bench) but it could also block the way for Coady. Pointless having an acadamy if we don't use or trust it.

On balance I think we should go with what we've got, and haven't we already got enough new players finding their way this season.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 02, 2011, 10:50:11 PM
Pointless having an acadamy if we don't use or trust it....On balance I think we should go with what we've got, and haven't we already got enough new players finding their way this season.
Precisely and I agree that we should promote from within.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 02, 2011, 11:19:01 PM
Precisely and I agree that we should promote from within.

All the players that have been mentioned are all pretty much settled at the club and have spent a good amount of time working with the management and coaching staff. There's a huge risk that if we were to bring in someone to 'cover' Lucas that they make take the half a season to settle and adapt, leaving us worse off.

There's a big chance for some or someone to make a name for themselves/himself.

With Spearing's form since Dalglish's arrival, it would be unfair on him to be overlooked and not given the chance. Also it sends out the wrong message to the academy lads, especially after seeing Flanaghan and Robinson trusted when were short of fit players last season.

I hope whatever plans have been set for January don't get altered. We should be looking to simply more than the next six months, afterall Lucas is only injured, he's not left the club.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 03, 2011, 12:32:17 AM
I hope whatever plans have been set for January don't get altered.

I think thats exactly what will happen Tes or not happen in this case. I dont think Kenny will sign anyone to replace Lucas unless its on loan or they are a long term transfer target. I expect this squad will continue to evolve. The likes of Shankly, Paisely always attempted to strengthen the team and squad no matter how good the team may have been and i think thats what Kenny and Comolli will attempt to do.

One person I think that has to be worried about future transfers is Carroll. Although he continues to struggle I dont necessarily think thats what he needs to be worried about but moreso the teams style of play as he struggles. I dont doubt his ability, if hes given a decent run in the team im sure he will score goals. From what ive seen so far though questions are starting to be asked about the ability of himself and Suarez to develop the partnership we had hoped. We look far more threatening when we have someone quick like Bellamy playing up front with Suarez. Carroll definitely gives us a different option but unless his mobility improves he may struggle to hold a place down in the team with the style we are playing now. Its okay to be sitting on the bench for a bit now but if Carroll still isnt a regular starter 6 months down the line sure it will be a problem for himself and the club. A young lad with his talent needs to be playing in a side every week. I like Carroll as a player and I hope he can prove himself at Liverpool but I just wonder is there a nagging doubt in the back of Kennys mind about how hes going to consistently fit him into the team. Hopefully it turns out not to be the case, last season against Man City from their point of view he was unplayable.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 03, 2011, 10:49:29 PM
Andy Carroll would flourish in a team that aspires to play a certain way and would build a team around his strengths. I'm sure Roy Hodgson, for example, could 'do a Bobby Zamora' with him, but unless a much bigger club 'does a Purslow' it will never happen.

Capello leaves in the Summer, 'Arry takes over Ingurland and Levy, tired of financing chequebook managers appoints Roy. Levy gives Roy Andy Carroll as his one time indulgence.

Sometimes, certain clubs are just wrong for certain players and I think this is the case with Carroll.   
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 05, 2011, 07:10:43 PM
No Maxi, no Kuijt, but Henderson you can bet your bottom is starting + the not good enough Spearing. If Kuijt, Maxi and Downing is available surely he's gorra find a better line-up than that. More points dropped. No point harping on about how you hate to draw games when you don't give the team preconditions to do better. No 4th with Kenny. Soz, but it has to be said and it's not primarily down to this being a transitional phase an'all that crap, we just don't have a manager who can separate his best side from his bottom. So fed up. With Henderson, Carrol and Spearing in the team we're effectively starting the game with 9 men.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 05, 2011, 07:40:54 PM
No Maxi, no Kuijt, but Henderson you can bet your bottom is starting + the not good enough Spearing. If Kuijt, Maxi and Downing is available surely he's gorra find a better line-up than that. More points dropped. No point harping on about how you hate to draw games when you don't give the team preconditions to do better. No 4th with Kenny. Soz, but it has to be said and it's not primarily down to this being a transitional phase an'all that crap, we just don't have a manager who can separate his best side from his bottom. So fed up. With Henderson, Carrol and Spearing in the team we're effectively starting the game with 9 men.

If Spearing doesn't replace Lucas, then who does? Agree with you about Maxi, though. He can be a source of goals and his movement and link up play with Luis is excellent.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 05, 2011, 07:44:25 PM
Liverpool: Reina, Johnson, Enrique, Skrtel, Agger, Henderson, Adam, Spearing, Bellamy, Carroll, Suarez.

Subs: Doni, Maxi, Coates, Kuyt, Downing, Carragher, Kelly.

With the movement of Suarez and Bellamy, Henderson and Adam have plenty to aim for. They need to work it between them which one gets forward to support the font line.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 05, 2011, 08:01:22 PM
Disappointed Maxi doesn't get a start but there's more than enough quality to get a result there tonight. Too much negativity on this forum!!  >:(
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 05, 2011, 08:26:57 PM
Disappointed Maxi doesn't get a start but there's more than enough quality to get a result there tonight. Too much negativity on this forum!!  >:(

Three words for Martin - 'Hicks and Gillett'. Shudders.

Carroll missed a good chance, but he was there to miss it, which is always a good sign.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 05, 2011, 08:38:48 PM
The ref needs to realise that football is a contact sport (just about). He's giving some very soft 'fouls'.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 05, 2011, 08:49:28 PM
Spearing's done fine so far. Henderson needs to pick it up though and there's still too many 'hopeful passes' up to Carroll.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 05, 2011, 08:50:06 PM
Can't believe we haven't scored. Thought Carroll's was in and then the same for Henderson's. Maxi on after 60min if we haven't scored.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 05, 2011, 09:03:42 PM
Can't believe we haven't scored. Thought Carroll's was in and then the same for Henderson's. Maxi on after 60min if we haven't scored.

Carroll was reaching a touch but if anything still got too clean a contact. A bit more of a scuffed shot and we may be in the lead. Henderson did well driving at the defence, yet again the post defeats us.

Spearing needs to watch the runners and needs more help from Henderson and Adam, especially with Dempsey coming in off the flank at times. Whoever plays alongside Spearing in midfield needs to understand it's a combined effort replacing Lucas. Spearo's kept possession well, moved the ball quickly and has been accurate in his passing. Like Lucas has had, Spearing needs games and he will grow into the role. We have to remember he is very inexperienced at this level.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 05, 2011, 09:04:47 PM
Disappointed Maxi doesn't get a start but there's more than enough quality to get a result there tonight. Too much negativity on this forum!!  >:(

Agreed ASI on both points.

Maxi must feel hard done by but we can win this. I think the football we are playing going forward is at times quality. Some lovely pass and move stuff.

What is a little concerning is how open we have been on occasion. Spearing has struggled in midfield and they need to stop getting cut open so easily. Not sure if its the fact that Lucas is not playing but its been too open for us.

So far the Carroll enigma doesnt look like being solved. Like we said before he doesnt look like he fits in to the style of football we are trying to play. Its nothing to do with his quality or effort. At the moment it looks as if we would be more effective with someone quick and mobile playing in place of Andy. Even if he were to score the winner here tonight Im not quiet sure how Kenny will resolve this one.

I reckon 2 second half goals for Liverpool.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 05, 2011, 09:05:57 PM
Too poor quality in the last third, but hey the guys who could make a difference is on the bench.

Tes I'd much rather see Henderson in the center instead of Spearing.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 05, 2011, 09:26:44 PM
Henderson's defensive awareness of the opposition's movement around him is poor and he seems reluctant to put his foot in. He needs to watch DVDs of Alonso and Hamann to see you don't need to be a 'blood and thunder' type to effectively defend and 'take' the ball off your opponent.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 05, 2011, 09:34:35 PM
Spearing off for a clean tackle. That sums up the ref's attitude to any sort of 'tackle'. How do you stop your momentum dead once you've won the ball? Let's just ban physical contact of any sort and be done with it.

There was a higher tackle on Carroll in the first half that went totally unpunished.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 05, 2011, 09:37:38 PM
Martin, you've got your wish for Henderson to be in the middle.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 05, 2011, 09:57:06 PM
A tale of two goalkeepers and a soft ref.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 05, 2011, 09:58:04 PM
Mad as hell at losing that game. Downing's shot tipped onto the post and then 2 mins later Johnson lets Murphy shoot.  :(

How the hell does a team who are 16th play like that?  >:(

But we are missing firepower up front. Need another striker in Jan. Carroll is a passenger and Suarez has dried up despite all his fancy turns and twists. How can you have the tightest defence and only be 7th? The lack of goals is the reason and that has to be addressed.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 05, 2011, 10:01:00 PM
Yes the ref robbed us. It was a peno, it was a correct goal scored and it was not even a yellow. But still, with our best XI from the start I am convinced we'd won this game. Kenny doesn't have it and as much as I like the man I don't see him any more a big club manager than Roy. But most disturbing of all is that I, a ferkin armchair supporter from Sweden can tell what side we need to play to win games like this but he can't. Very disturbing indeed.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 05, 2011, 10:04:25 PM
I couldnt fault our efforts tonight. We will play far worse than we did tonight this season and still win.

I thought our passing was sharp, our movement and energy was good. We got cut open a bit in the first half but I thought we were doing much better in the second half in that regard until Spearing went off.

Harsh red card alright Tes. We didnt get any rub of the green. Suarez goal could have stood, Swcharzer made a top class save from Downing and Reina was unlucky to spill for their goal.

The only thing that tonight highlights is our need to find a finisher to play with Suarez up front.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 05, 2011, 10:11:15 PM
Carroll is a passenger and Suarez has dried up despite all his fancy turns and twists. How can you have the tightest defence and only be 7th? The lack of goals is the reason and that has to be addressed.

I wouldnt call him a passenger ASI, I dont think thats fair. He is trying to play the quick tempoed game the team is playing but its just not suited to his style. That doesnt make Kennys job of deciding what to do with him any easier because it is an issue whether he wants to admit it or not.

As for Suarez for me he is a second striker that needs to be playing off a goalscorer. But I agree we need to buy another striker.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 05, 2011, 10:16:57 PM
Kenny doesn't have it and as much as I like the man I don't see him any more a big club manager than Roy.

Ah thats a bit harsh Martin. I think the team is actually starting to play very well together. Okay the results arent exactly going our way every game but even watching tonights game I am finally seeing progress. We are by no means nearly the finished article but we are starting to play good football but are just lacking the cutting edge in front of goal. Adding a top quality goal scorer would solve alot of our problems and I also think the squad is alot better than you are giving it credit for.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 05, 2011, 11:24:28 PM
Senderos committed 3 bookable offences, Adam, Carroll and Suarez yet stays on the pitch. Dempsey went over the top of ball after miscontrolling it on Henderson (I think it was) yet the ref barely speaks to him. Carroll got taken out thigh high just inside their half in the first half and the ref doesn't even talk to the player.

Johnson should have shown Murphy down the outside away from goal. Even if Murphy's left footed he can't beat Johnson for pace. You don't let him come inside on goal.

Spearing won the ball cleanly and firmly, even if your momentum carries you through it can only be a yellow. It's not like he went in over the ball, barely brushing the top of it and into the player with his tackling foot.

We definately lack goals, which is an option Maxi sometimes does give us. Andy Carroll simply can't move his feet quick enough and adjust to keep the movement going at pace. However we can't afford to sell him this Summer. His 'book value' (£35M divided by 5 means his value is reduced or amortised  by £7M a year) will still be £28M in the Summer, so Summer 2013 sees us lose potentially much less as his value is £21M. We don't lose on anything below £35M (at least not for accounting purposes). Do we wait that long though?

Who wants to guess the make up of our midfield for the next three games? The management have a tough task ahead. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 05, 2011, 11:24:54 PM
I wouldnt call him a passenger ASI, I dont think thats fair. He is trying to play the quick tempoed game the team is playing but its just not suited to his style. That doesnt make Kennys job of deciding what to do with him any easier because it is an issue whether he wants to admit it or not.
Apart from his strike in the first half Juan I can't think of anything else he did. Have I missed something?

I feel Kenny is obliged to play him because of his price tag. That's not Andy's fault but this is a big bloke. 6ft 4in and 13+stone and he should be as hard to shift off the ball as Drogba is but he loses possession quite easily. There's no logical reason why Maxi shouldn't have played tonight. That's a mystery.

The Spearing card needs to be appealed because to send someone off when they got the ball and only fouled the player with a follow through is ridiculous. Henderson will now switch to central midfield and that will bring the best out of his talents although defensively it may make us weaker.

Reina and Johnson have to accept responsibility for their goal but that aside, I thought our defence was pretty solid.

I saw too many passes to players stood still tonight. I would have preferred a faster passing game at times. By the time we got to their penalty area they had too many players back.

Can't remember Johnson bombing down the right once tonight but Enrique did okay on the left. Fulham played well above their position but all is not lost. Our finishing has to improve but 13 attempts against the woodwork leads the league by a mile.

Haven't heard Kenny's interview. I'll look for it now.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 06, 2011, 01:44:40 AM

The Spearing card needs to be appealed because to send someone off when they got the ball and only fouled the player with a follow through is ridiculous.

Seeing it again, in real time, confirms what I thought at the time. As Spearing goes in with his right foot and wins the ball (incidently he was also nearer the ball than his victim opponent, his standing foot seems to from under him, which is why it follows through in the way it did.

To launch yourself into a tackle either means both feet are launched together facing forward (toes skywards), or one foot leads (facing forward) and the other follows (toes pointed downwards). It's really, really difficult, if not impossible, to launch yourself with both sets of studs up but with one leg following through at the same angle as the first foot makes contact, but with your feet not together. Try it, but you'll need something soft to land on.  :D
Jay's left foot went from under him as his right foot struck the ball which is why his left foot came through at the same angle as his right foot had previously done.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 06, 2011, 03:24:01 PM
Ah thats a bit harsh Martin. I think the team is actually starting to play very well together. Okay the results arent exactly going our way every game but even watching tonights game I am finally seeing progress. We are by no means nearly the finished article but we are starting to play good football but are just lacking the cutting edge in front of goal. Adding a top quality goal scorer would solve alot of our problems and I also think the squad is alot better than you are giving it credit for.

Juan, I'm not saying we're not playing well, I'm simply saying that we shouldn't confuse that with what could've been. I am absolutetly convinced we would've score at least one in the opening 30 minutes with Kuijt and Maxi on the pitch. It won't say in the books Fulham 1 - 0 Liverpool (+ they scored many chances), it will say 1-0 and that's what counts. This was the 3rd time, at least, this season where Kenny's line-up sceamed it was evident even before KO we'd struggle to get anything. His poor judgement is costing us dearly mate and if you can't see that I can't do anything about it. I wasn't lucky to post prior to KO we'd drop points, it was written all over based on that line up. Now THAT is a genuine problem. No 4th under Kenny I say and it won't be down to us being in a transitional phase, gelling new players or any other unacceptable excuse.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 06, 2011, 05:57:26 PM
Tes, I take your point about why the ref decided he had to walk. This morning's paper had a photo of Jay with both feet off the ground which makes a defence difficult. I think we'll just have to bite the bullet on that one. I won't try it myself as 1) I'm too old and 2) the only soft thing I can land on is the lawn and as you can see from my sig it's a bit nippy out there!

Martin, I agree and disagree with two of your points. I agree that Maxi should have started. But I disagree that Kenny's judgement is flawed because we don't have access to all the info he does. There may have been compelling reasons why Maxi didn't play so I'm afraid that we'll just have to trust Kenny's judgement. Whether you agree with me on that is debatable.  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 06, 2011, 07:31:52 PM
Martin, I agree and disagree with two of your points. I agree that Maxi should have started. But I disagree that Kenny's judgement is flawed because we don't have access to all the info he does. There may have been compelling reasons why Maxi didn't play so I'm afraid that we'll just have to trust Kenny's judgement. Whether you agree with me on that is debatable.  ;D

But it wasn't just Maxi. Kuijt is one of few players that click with Suarez. Downing, no matter how disappointing thus far, will always be a better left winger than Suarez.  Remember Stoke away? Yes we played well, very well indeed. Even The Independent had it we played better and created more chances than both ManU and Chelsea but got away with less. For some reason Kenny thought playing Henderson ahead of Kuijt was a wise move. Then you have the City game a couple of weeks ago. Even though at home, I can see the sense in starting the game with a 4-5-1 formation to see how it pans out. As it panned out City were there for the taking and had Kenny moved Kuijt upfront and switched to a 4-4-2 formation our chances to have won it would've increased greatly.

We play well people say and I agree we do. The problem is, the table doesn't lie and the reason we more and more look like a candidate for 6th or 7th is Kenny can't separate his best line-up from his bottom.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 06, 2011, 08:17:06 PM
Going 4-4-2 would have let City back in the game. We simply don't have the midfielders to play 4-4-2 without bringing increased pressure on the back 4.

Maxi just seems destined to be dropped no matter how well or how many goals he scores. It's strange, as he's one of the main beneficiaries of the way we now play.

You'll definately get your chance to see Henderson in the middle for the next 3 games, Martin. It's a worry about how soft our centre will now be.

We need to find ourselves a player capable of scoring a few goals, be it a strike partner for Suarez, wide forward player or from midfield. We've had a lot of possession in most of the matches this season but our inability to get a goal return from that is killing us. Any team will have a spell of possession of their own in a match and it's proving more decisive than it should.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 06, 2011, 08:57:47 PM
Martin,

Kuyt is now 31 and although he has a huge reserve he's perhaps unable to play 40+ games a season. I'm sure that's the reason Kenny rests him occasionally. And bear in mind he hasn't scored this season.

I don't have a problem with players being rotated / rested but Maxi was crying out to be played last night and I can't find any report that asked Kenny why he didn't play him.

Surely he has to start on Saturday otherwise he will be putting in for a transfer and one of the top 5 are bound to make an offer. We can't keep haemorrhaging our better players to the opposition.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 06, 2011, 09:11:00 PM
Agreed, ASI, Maxi is the sort of technical player we need more of, not fewer of.

Dirk most definately is the one player who always looks to be on the same wavelength as Suarez but as you say age is against him playing every game and as he is a genuine big game player it is better to be selective about the games he plays. It shows that we still have gaps in the squad but the comparative lack of depth in the squad could never be addessed in just one or two windows.
Afterall, our rivals squads weren't assembled in a couple of windows, not even City's.

What is clear is that we need to aim higher than the Downings etc next Summer, and getting Suarez has shown it's not impossible. Difficult, granted, but not impossible.

It's interesting how many players have expressed a desire or preference to play for Arsenal, despite their lack of trophies and never being in any danger of regularly reaching the latter stages of the CL. The reason they give is their style of play. So it shows you can attract some players without regular success or the offer of eye watering salaries. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 06, 2011, 10:36:27 PM
Jesus, even watching the game today, I still thought
we'd have enough to scrape a win (how deluded am I?).

Anyway, Fulham gave us a good game, so no complaints
there. Wasn't a red card in my opinion, if the player doesn't
win the ball, then he's timed it wrong, it shouldn't be Spearing's
problem wherever the opponent has ended up (is he supposed
to let the opponent win the ball? c'mon, ffs, ridiculous!).
Anyway, I think Everton had a similar view when we played
them, so we move on...

Quite simply we're NOT CLINICAL enough in front of goal.
Granted we've come up against some good keepers but
they're all beatable.

Heads up, no feeling sorry for ourselves (in fact we could learn
something from Fulham's grit!). We're not good enough at the
moment, so we need to improve!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 06, 2011, 11:20:53 PM
I hope the data below shows up properly. It shows a league table based on goals scored. The actual position is extreme left and position based on goals scored far right. What I find incredible is that Blackburn, Norwich and Bolton have scored more goals than Liverpool.  And not surprisingly, we are sitting mid table :o

1   Man City   48   1
2   Man Utd   31   2
4   Chelsea   31   3
5   Arsenal   30   4
3   Spurs   29   5
18   Blackburn   21   6
11   Norwich   20   7
6   Newcastle   19   8
19   Bolton   19   9
7   Liverpool   17   10
9   Villa   16   11
13   Fulham   16   12
17   Sunderland   16   13
10   Everton   15   14
12   QPR   15   15
16   Wolves   15   16
8   Stoke   14   17
15   Swansea   14   18
14   WBA   13   19
20   Wigan   12   20

This should be an area of serious concern for all at the club. We have a world-class striker in Suarez and other quality players who are more than capable of scoring goals so the question has to be asked - why aren't we putting the ball in the back of the net more often?

The number of times we've hit the woodwork could be one answer - 12 - but it has to be more than that. We were banging them in last season from Feb-April. There was a freedom about our play that we seem to have temporarily lost. Yes, we bomb forward at times but do we really get enough players in the box? Our better defensive record suggests we don't.

I agree that a clean sheet is important but a better balance has to be found. We need to throw more players forward and kill a game early.

One other worrying fact. In our last 6 games we have scored 6 goals. 6 other clubs have scored the same. None have scored less. One of those 6 was... Manure who actually conceded 7 in their last 6 compared to us conceding 4 but somehow they accumulated 3 more points!!  :(
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 06, 2011, 11:35:25 PM
Martin,

Kuyt is now 31 and although he has a huge reserve he's perhaps unable to play 40+ games a season. I'm sure that's the reason Kenny rests him occasionally. And bear in mind he hasn't scored this season.

I don't have a problem with players being rotated / rested but Maxi was crying out to be played last night and I can't find any report that asked Kenny why he didn't play him.

Surely he has to start on Saturday otherwise he will be putting in for a transfer and one of the top 5 are bound to make an offer. We can't keep haemorrhaging our better players to the opposition.

We're not in Europe. On average he's getting 7 days rest between every game for God's sake. Plus he's one of our mist physically fit and least injury prone players. Wrap it in whatever form or shape you like ASI - the table doesn't lie. We're not good enough under Kenny and there's little to suggest that fact wil change any time soon.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 07, 2011, 01:46:18 AM
We're not good enough under Kenny.
So far this season, imo, there's merit in this argument.

there's little to suggest that fact wil change any time soon.
However, again imo, there's plenty to suggest that there's
enough quality and character in the side to compete in
the Prem. this season.

I don't have the facts to hand, but there are recent unbeaten runs
that are being overlooked in your argument. ASI had stats about
hitting the woodwork earlier.

As Lucas has shown (and hitting the woodwork includes), it's a
game of inches and we take it one step at a time. The fans have
their part to play!

Imo, guys like Reina, Enrique, Adam, Suarez, Agger, the boy Spearing,
Kelly have shown that they want to play for the club (wear the badge!).
Did you ever think to get behind those lads with a roar of encouragement?
SUCK that ball into the net, make our ground a fortress??

It's easy to wallow in negativity and crises, ultimately though what
we all want is to get back up there and win trophies!

There's no room for feeling sorry for ourselves, we need to improve and
hopefully, starting against QPR we'll do that!

btw, I wonder if the Evra thing is affecting Suarez?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 07, 2011, 08:43:01 AM
Ed, I'm not wallowing in negativity, I just call the shots as I see them. I would agree we seem to be a tad more unlucky than most other team. However, having splashed out some 100 million this year alone you'd expect us to do better than this. Also, I don't rate unbeaten runs if they're based on draws at home against newly promoted sides or bottom half sides.

Kenny just doesn't understand the importance of playing his best team, nor does he seem to understand that playing his flop signings ain't gonna save his job in the long run. And I won't even mention his inability/reluctance to change a game by switching formation and/or using the bench pre-75th minute.

Carrol, Downing and Henderson. Now that's some 70 million worth of crap. Roy was lambasted for splashing out the total sum of 4 million on Konchesky and Jovanovic while Kenny's regarded a great manager for a reason I struggle to understand. The world has indeed gone crazy.

It's not a knee-jerk reaction, it's an analysis based of watching his management for almost a calendar year. His appointent was merely based on emotional sentiment rather than footy merits.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 07, 2011, 10:21:33 AM
Ed, I'm not wallowing in negativity, I just call the shots as I see them. I would agree we seem to be a tad more unlucky than most other teams. However, having splashed out some 100 million this year alone you'd expect us to do better than this. Also, I don't rate unbeaten runs if they're based on draws at home against newly promoted sides or bottom half sides.

Kenny just doesn't understand the importance of playing his best team, nor does he seem to understand that playing his flop signings ain't gonna save his job in the long run. And I won't even mention his inability/reluctance to change a game by switching formation and/or using the bench pre-75th minute.

Carrol, Downing and Henderson. Now that's some 70 million worth of crap. Roy was lambasted for splashing out the total sum of 4 million on Konchesky and Jovanovic while Kenny's regarded a great manager for a reason I struggle to understand. The world has indeed gone crazy.

It's not a knee-jerk reaction, it's an analysis based of watching his management for almost a calendar year. His appointent was merely based on emotional sentiment rather than footy merits.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 07, 2011, 02:31:37 PM
Ed, I'm not wallowing in negativity, I just call the shots as I see them.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Anyway, you're not alone
if this piece is anything to go by: (NOT for the faint-hearted or
easily offended!!)

http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/12/07/kenny-dalglish-has-bought-worse-than-rafa-benitez/
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 07, 2011, 02:51:15 PM
Juan, I'm not saying we're not playing well, I'm simply saying that we shouldn't confuse that with what could've been. I am absolutetly convinced we would've score at least one in the opening 30 minutes with Kuijt and Maxi on the pitch. It won't say in the books Fulham 1 - 0 Liverpool (+ they scored many chances), it will say 1-0 and that's what counts. This was the 3rd time, at least, this season where Kenny's line-up sceamed it was evident even before KO we'd struggle to get anything. His poor judgement is costing us dearly mate and if you can't see that I can't do anything about it. I wasn't lucky to post prior to KO we'd drop points, it was written all over based on that line up. Now THAT is a genuine problem. No 4th under Kenny I say and it won't be down to us being in a transitional phase, gelling new players or any other unacceptable excuse.

Thats fair enough Martin, I take your point that you dont rate KD as a competent enough manager and you have problems with his decision making. Who knows Martin maybe your opinion is the correct one but I personally dont believe it is.

I think your are quantifying what Kenny has done for the club since arriving in January soley on the points we have collected. Under different circumstances I think that would be a fair way to judge but with the state LFC was in after the Hicks and Gillett era has meant Kennys job was far more than being just about bringing in a few new players to improve the team. Not only did Kenny transform where we were in the table when he took over he has gone on to lead the team up the table back to at least being in with a shout of European qualification. He has slashed the clubs wage bill and at the same time managed to rid the club of dead wood that has been lingering for years. He has brought in new players, some look more successful than others to date but thats always going to be the case when you bring in a host of new talent. If it turns out he has got it wrong with the likes of Carroll maybe he will need to rethink how he goes about his transfer business but I dont think its fair to condemn Henderson, Carroll and Downing yet. Admittedly the needing time to gel excuse cant be used much longer but players like Henderson and Carroll were bought as the future of the club for the next decade. Kenny probably expected more out of Carroll up to now but he never expected Henderson to fulfill his potential within the first 3 months of his Liverpool career. Ive seen enough of Henderson to think he may not be the finished article or the Premier Leagues top midfielder just yet but hes got huge potential. Downing on the other hand is a bit more of a mystery. Theres no way you can write his Liverpool career off yet, hes a better player than he is showing and I hope he can recapture that form that earned him a move.

To continue on what Kenny has done at the club he has TRANSFORMED our style of play. I intentionally use capitals because we have come an enormous distance from the long ball tactics deployed under Roy and even the sometimes rigid tactical systems we saw under Rafa. Liverpool have finally started playing football in the free flowing way it used and still should be played at the club. So all in all I think Kenny has crammed an awful lot of work in his first 11 months as manager. Im excited not only by the progress so far but also by the thoughts of where the club and team is going. If we keep adding a bit of quality to the squad each year we will be challenging the likes of United and City in the not so distant future. Our home form has been disappointing, not necessarily the performances but our inability to kill games when we are dominating. Thats something Im sure Kenny is trying to address, maybe it will come in the form of signing another striker to play with Suarez, maybe it will come from the training ground but from what Ive seen so far of Kenny and the management team Ive no doubt it will come. My appreciation of KD's work doesnt stem from romantic memories of eras of gone by but by the football and work ive seen to date. Right now I am more than willing to look past the number of points on the board because I know this team is a work in progress and I genuinely believe from what Im seeing that its only a matter of time before we are back challenging for the PL under Kenny Dalglish.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 07, 2011, 06:07:53 PM
It's not a knee-jerk reaction, it's an analysis based of watching his management for almost a calendar year. His appointent was merely based on emotional sentiment rather than footy merits.

these have been, for me, the most frustratingly depressing of times.

after seeing the first two or three games of the season, I said we were top 8 material......at best, top 6.  And that is the way it is playing out.

The lack of tactical acumen reminds me of the Souness era.

Amazing to think that my three all-time favourite reds - Kenny, Graeme and Kevin - never really understood all the elements of the game and what makes teams tick. 

The key to building a top team is balance.    The two best managers we ever had, when it came to building and achieving good balance, was Sir Bob and Rafa.   

Kenny, Graeme and Kevin try their best, but sadly fall way short of dugout greatness.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on December 07, 2011, 08:26:39 PM
ASI...that table is truly horrifying...for blackburn to have scored more than us...is just....wow...
couldn't give a toss about clean sheets...
we need to sort our attack out....the main problem is that kuyt and maxi are not being played enough and carroll is being played...sorry but he was a panic buy to placate the fans...
the free flowing football between feb-april was when we had kuyt, maxi and meireles playing in a flowing midfield...
now that downing and henderson have replaced them...we are not as good...
whatever happened to the anfield way that you get introduced into the way we play?..and not thrown in...
adam is doing a fairly good job at replacing gerrard and meireles...
in defense we are stronger with enrique....and skrtel and agger....but kelly should be playing more...

one of the main problems is we're not playing our strongest side due to us introducing downing, carroll, henderson etc...
we ALWAYS play our strongest side against the big sides and we get good results...
but as soon as we face the 'lesser' sides we weaken and due to bad luck/divine intervention/not being able to hit a barn door, we have problems...resulting in us scraping by against lesser sides...
we should also go back to what rafa used to do....we're at fulham...play it around but let the home side come at us....why put ourselves under pressure for wanting a result...the home crowd of our opposition want their team to attack...and we wait and counter...

and all this talk of great goalkeepers...purleeeezzee....if we stopped shooting at them it would do wonders for our strike rate....we need a david villa...a goal scorer...to unnerve the shine-a-light out of the goalkeeper and make him doubt his every move...

juan....we have changed our way of play....agreed...but we can be too open...with more limited resources for the last half of the season we seemed to be far more flowing...
also i agree completely that there has been a great change since the dark days of hicks and gillette...
but criticism is not necessarily negative...because there is a certain amount of dissapointment with what martinmarx, me and dude occasionaly say...the amount kenny has spent in comparison with rafa's spending speaks volumes...i notice that we're still relying on rafa's old stalwarts to get us goals...

dude....good to see you back...agreed with the sentiment...kenny has to go on a steep learning curve or...
we have to pray to mammon/odin/zeus that rafa doesn't join psg...cos with their money he'll have the backing and never want to leave...if we wait to see how it goes until the end of the season...and there are still problems...then with rafa still being free in the summer...then decisions will have to be made...
after all with rafa and for all of his critics...at the very least he got us to the champions league...and i for one....miss that....

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on December 07, 2011, 08:35:27 PM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Anyway, you're not alone
if this piece is anything to go by: (NOT for the faint-hearted or
easily offended!!)

http://www.surrealfootball.com/2011/12/07/kenny-dalglish-has-bought-worse-than-rafa-benitez/

Thanks Ed....a work of true unmitigated brilliance!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 07, 2011, 09:53:32 PM
We're not in Europe. On average he's getting 7 days rest between every game for God's sake. Plus he's one of our mist physically fit and least injury prone players. Wrap it in whatever form or shape you like ASI - the table doesn't lie. We're not good enough under Kenny and there's little to suggest that fact wil change any time soon.

I'm not saying I agreed with the decision to not play him. Just trying to understand what might be the situation with him.

You say we're not good enough but how come we're undefeated against City and Utd and beat Arsenal and Chelsea (twice) away? You're being very selective with your criticism and not balancing it against good results.

I've read a lot of criticism about our new signings tonight. Well try this on for size. I've just watched Smalling commit the most appalling defensive error to allow Basel to score a second and relegate Manure to the Europa. People are people. They make mistakes. The person who hasn't made one hasn't done anything. It's how you react in your next challenge that determines your character.

All that's missing from the team is a few more goals going in. Imagine if we were scoring freely but were letting them in like a sieve. Didn't Shankly always say you build a good team from the back? Well we have a pretty solid back pair in Skrtel and Agger and Enrique is doing a great job at LB. Johnson is the weakest aspect but he's good going forward. Midfield is okay. All we're lacking is someone to knock in all the chances we create.

And Carroll has scored more recently in the league than Rooney!! Football! Bloody 'ell!  :o
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 07, 2011, 10:31:03 PM
You say we're not good enough but how come we're undefeated against City and Utd and beat Arsenal and Chelsea (twice) away? You're being very selective with your criticism and not balancing it against good results.

What's the point in beating Arsenal away just to field a weak side away and lose to Stoke? If producing results against the top sides were all that matter then the PL would consist of 6 or 7 teams. Thing is that it consist of 20 and it really doesn't matter how good your results are against the top sides if those results aren't matched by the results against the less good sides. It was written all over we'd get good results against City and Chelsea after drawing at HOME against NORWICH AND SWANSEA.

It's this inconsisency that's plagued the club for a decade we need to get rid of. Best way of ensuring that goal is to consistently play our best side. Kenny doesn't realise this hence we'll never reach top 4 under him. He may win us the ocassional mickey mouse cup to keep the nostalgic and emotional momentum but it won't alter the fact he ain't good enough to take this club to the next level. Again, the table doesn't lie!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 07, 2011, 10:44:25 PM
What's the point in beating Arsenal away just to field a weak side away and lose to Stoke? If producing results against the top sides were all that matter then the PL would consist of 6 or 7 teams. Thing is that it consist of 20 and it really doesn't matter how good your results are against the top sides if those results aren't matched by the results against the less good sides. It was written all over we'd get good results against City and Chelsea after drawing at HOME against NORWICH AND SWANSEA.
It's not just us who drops points against lesser teams. Arsenal have been doing it for years. Chelsea have done it this season. And years ago when Liverpool were champions they dropped points at home. It happens!

Quote
It's this inconsisency that's plagued the club for a decade we need to get rid of. Best way of ensuring that goal is to consistently play our best side. Kenny doesn't realise this hence we'll never reach top 4 under him. He may win us the ocassional mickey mouse cup to keep the nostalgic and emotional momentum but it won't alter the fact he ain't good enough to take this club to the next level. Again, the table doesn't lie!
You seem to be expecting Pld 38, won 38. You give the team no credit whatsoever for good away wins. It's about time you did!

I want you to name me what you consider our best 11 to be. I'll watch out for when that lineup plays and let's see what the result is.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 08, 2011, 04:06:19 PM
This is, IMHO, our best starting line-up provided we play a midtable/bottom half side given the current injuries:

--------------------------------Reina----------------------------------

Kelly----------------Skrtel-----------Carra/Coates-----------Enrique

-------------------------------Agger-----------------------------------

-------Johnson--------------Adam---------------------Maxi/Downing

-------------------Suarez------------Kuijt/Bellars--------------------
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 08, 2011, 04:27:05 PM
remember that our one top buy, Suarez, was earmarked by Liverpool before Dalglish and Comolli were appointed.  Indeed, Hodgson went over to Holland to watch him play during his time in charge.

the depressing thing is, we have actually gone backwards despite spending 90 million on the other lads this year.  Our best two acquisitions were frees - bellamy and enrique.    And remember, Bellamy is no spring chicken.

But elsewhere, it has been a scary waste of money.  So for our 90 million that we did actually spend, we essentially have one player who definitely starts most games and slots right into our first team - i.e. Adam. 

Carroll, from the first 2 or 3 games, was patently not good enough.  I have to imagine he is still getting starts because of the embarrassing fee that we paid for him.    To me, it feels like pure internal politics.  But at some point, Kenny and Comolli will have to hold their hands up. 

We have gone backwards this year.  It's embarrassing for Kenny, because he is now forced to revert to Rafa's old team/players, to get results.   

Rafa paid one a half million quid for the superbly gifted Maxi Rodriguez; Kenny paid 35 million for Andy Carroll.   

Says it all really.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 08, 2011, 05:02:18 PM
This is, IMHO, our best starting line-up provided we play a midtable/bottom half side given the current injuries:

--------------------------------Reina----------------------------------

Kelly----------------Skrtel-----------Carra/Coates-----------Enrique

-------------------------------Agger-----------------------------------

-------Johnson--------------Adam---------------------Maxi/Downing

-------------------Suarez------------Kuijt/Bellars--------------------

How curious that you would break up what has been our most successful central defensive partnership of Skrtel and Agger and reintroduce Jamie when he's been getting so much stick on these pages.

And I asked for your chosen 11. So no either/ors please. Just your best 11 and preferably one for all games and not just against 'weaker' teams. Best is best irrespective of the opposition. Lucas would have to be excluded obviously.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 08, 2011, 07:19:52 PM
--------------------------------Reina----------------------------------

Kelly----------------Skrtel---------------Coates--------------Enrique

-------------------------------Agger-----------------------------------

-----------Johnson-------------Adam---------------------------Maxi

-------------------Suarez--------------------Kuijt--------------------


We'll lose more from playing Spearing or Henderson in the center than breaking up Agger and Skrtel. I also think that since this season is already over and 4th is all but a naive dream we might as well use it to gel Coates into the team. At least we stayed within distance to 4th through November this year. Progression anyone? Lol.

Also, I second every word the Dude says in his post above. Very much spot on that.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 08, 2011, 08:10:07 PM
Thanks Ed....a work of true unmitigated brilliance!
LOL, it was so funny!

I note Dude is back on the forum, welcome back Dude, I've missed your views!

I'm looking at the table, now we're 15 from the summit and 10 behind the Mancs.
Ok, but we were never really going to win the league. Our two most
influential midfielders out at the moment...it's not ideal!

So, we're in a battle for fourth! 5 points off 4th! 72 points left to play for (I think!).

There's been talk about the new signings & the manager is being questioned.
Too early, I think.

First off, is anyone saying Kenny is the man to deliver our next Champions league.
Doubt it. He's been appointed, as far as I can see, to revive our fortunes in the league,
get us back into the Champions league and maybe pick up some domestic honours.

If he achieves none of this, then questions deserve to be asked at the end of the season.

The signings...to date they haven't quite gelled. Still, I've seen enough from all of them bar
Carroll to suggest there's more to come from each of them.

On to Carroll. He hasn't really delivered yet. Seems a nice bloke. Back when we bought him, my
idea was that our entire season would depend on him. I had this vision that just the sight of
his name on the teamsheet would send shivers down the spine of the opposition. He would be
our Rooney, someone to lead our charge in the league. Bang!, Bang!, week in week out, terrorising
defences.

Well that hasn't quite worked out. I'm happy enough to stick with the lad for another while because
he'd be an absolute joy to watch if he fulfilled some of the promise he showed with Newcastle. I
think he needs to just be himself, play his game, be an absolute  m**herf**ker, own the box.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 09, 2011, 12:27:50 AM
Tes I'd much rather see Henderson in the center instead of Spearing.

We'll lose more from playing Spearing or Henderson in the center than breaking up Agger and Skrtel.


Martin, now I'm confused.

Also, Johnson is untried, at least since he's been here, on the right of midfield/wide right/right wing. Yes, there are a few of us that would like to see him tried there, but don't you think you'd be adding further instability to an already experimental team?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 09, 2011, 01:26:38 AM
But elsewhere, it has been a scary waste of money. 

The scariest thing about it all is if that was all our powder used in one Summer. Was that the major investment that was to see us back in the CL? FSG don't have Abramovich or Mansour type wealth or even the desire to try to prove they have.

We won't have a January like the last one unless we find a forgotten Torres type valued player under the changing room benches.

The Summer won't see a repeat of this Summer.

So what will we be left with and how will we make up the gap that will probably still be there between us and those above us?

If we do get fourth, will we have the finance to maintain that position ahead of those who finish below us but who you'd fancy to have a few quid to spend in the Summer to reverse it.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 09, 2011, 01:39:27 AM
The balance of a team is a very tricky thing to get right

e.g. were we beginning to see Reina take up some sweeping duties
with the Skrtel/Agger Lucas combo?

How long did it take for Rafa to happen upon Gerrard playing
off Torres up front (I forget!).

It's the manager's job to get the formula right and I think given the
recent disruptions it may take time or the injuries to Lucas & Gerrard
(desperation) may prompt the introduction of Shelvey up front and pow
the ball starts going in the net...In my opinion there are enough bits
and pieces on the chess board & on the fringes of the first 11 for us
to find a solution. In fact given that it's QPR at home on Saturday, I
wouldn't mind having a look at Shelvey up frontish at some point?
Maybe, young Coates can score from corners?

 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 09, 2011, 09:07:05 AM
I note Dude is back on the forum, welcome back Dude, I've missed your views!

thanks, Ed.

I was so utterly depressed with things this season, that I took a sabbatical (and beers) from this place.

But I have returned with fortitude and resolve (and beer).

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 09, 2011, 09:16:35 AM
The scariest thing about it all is if that was all our powder used in one Summer. Was that the major investment that was to see us back in the CL? FSG don't have Abramovich or Mansour type wealth or even the desire to try to prove they have.

We won't have a January like the last one unless we find a forgotten Torres type valued player under the changing room benches.

The Summer won't see a repeat of this Summer.

So what will we be left with and how will we make up the gap that will probably still be there between us and those above us?

If we do get fourth, will we have the finance to maintain that position ahead of those who finish below us but who you'd fancy to have a few quid to spend in the Summer to reverse it.

agreed.

If Kenny is allowed to see out his three year contract, then I see us finally losing touch with the top tier elite.

Kenny or Comolli can't even claim credit for our best buy, Suarez.  He was being targetted by the club long before they appeared on the scene.

The best of their 90 million was spent on Adam.  Good lad (glad we have him), but hardly a world beater. 

Two good frees, Enrique and 45 year old, Bellamy.

The over-priced Henderson has potential.

Carroll is nowhere near good enough, either physically or mentally.

As you say, we do not have the resources (or the will) to be spending the same amounts of money in the next transfer windows.

Kenny and Comolli might as well have gone out and burnt 90 million quid.

We have gone backwards. 

I hope our American owners see that and make changes in the summer.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 09, 2011, 12:39:49 PM

Martin, now I'm confused.

Also, Johnson is untried, at least since he's been here, on the right of midfield/wide right/right wing. Yes, there are a few of us that would like to see him tried there, but don't you think you'd be adding further instability to an already experimental team?

The first of my quotes was related to Monday's game in particular. As for the other quote, I'm thinking we should use the rest of the season, now that it's over anyway, to forge a good starting XI. I'd say our best RM is Kuijt but he's also the best we have to link up with Suarez and seeing as we lack goals... Yes Johnson is untried but he's also a tad shaky defensively. Our depth in strength isn't so deep when push comes to show.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 09, 2011, 01:09:06 PM
I'm thinking we should use the rest of the season, now that it's over anyway,

I'm speechless! There are 72 points up for grabs, we're 5 points off 4th and you have written off the rest of the season!  :o Maybe it's a Scandinavian thing. ::) I remain positive we can still achieve 4th or higher.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 09, 2011, 03:32:24 PM
I'm speechless! There are 72 points up for grabs, we're 5 points off 4th and you have written off the rest of the season!  :o Maybe it's a Scandinavian thing. ::) I remain positive we can still achieve 4th or higher.

Agreed ASI, its a terrible way to look at things and not an attitude that relates to the way LFC have gone about their business over time.

In 1981 Liverpool were 11th after Boxing day. They still managed to put a run together to win the league. It may be a different time, different era and different team and Im not suggesting that the same could happen this season but a club like Liverpool would never have a defeatist attitude like that.

Shankly himself would turn in his grave if we were to adopt such an attitude - "Aim for the sky and you'll reach the ceiling. Aim for the ceiling and you'll stay on the floor".

For me that kind of attitude is so far removed from the Liverpool Way.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 09, 2011, 04:03:34 PM
To be honest Im gobsmacked at the general defeatist attitude on this forum.

Dude does spending X amount of million constitute going backwards? Otherwise I dont see how you draw that conclusion.

From this time 12 months ago we are playing far better football, we are higher up in the league, we have had a number of academy players integrated to the squad and first team, we have managed to slash the wage bill by selling off what seemed to be alot of immovable dead wood and we are in the semi final of the Carling Cup. This time last season the Carling Cup was a distant embarrassing memory considering we lost to Northampton.

If all of that isnt progress under Kenny I dont know what is. Does the fact that hes spent 50-60 million net cancel out the progress we've made? I understand that many posters on here dont rate Kenny, thats fair enough, only time will tell whether he is the right man for the club but I personally believe hes done an awful lot of good in only 11 months in charge.  Unfortunately though it seems that unless Dalglishs side have achieved Champions League qualification by Christmas or unless his newly signed players are player of the year nominations by the time 2011 is out then everything he has done to date is one almighty failure.

At the start of the season most people said if we could snatch 4th and win a cup we would have had a successful season. Within 3 months and only 14 league games into the season it seems peoples expectations have gone through the roof. After the turbulent few years this club has had I find all of these criticisms very hard to comprehend.

Anyway welcome back to the forum Dude.

Its also a pity we don't have Kopite on here anymore, he was always able to give us the feeling from the support on Merseyside.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 09, 2011, 05:17:44 PM
Well said Juan. People seems to expect instant success which surprises me with some on this forum. I agree there has been a complete transformation in our playing style and the players themselves go to training each day with a smile on their face. I'm sorry but that never happened with Roy and probably Rafa lovely bloke though he is.

We may not be knocking them in but at least we are creating the opportunity to score. Compare than with the situation a year or two ago when things were really dire. 0-0 at relegated Hull on the last day of the 2009/10 season anyone? Here's the team for that game:- Reina, Mascherano, Carragher, Kyrgiakos, Agger, Lucas, Gerrard, Babel (Robinson 86), El Zhar (Ngog 61), Aquilani (Pacheco 72), Kuyt.

I've read several journalists reports recently and none have said LFC are going backwards. Mark Lawrenson's predictions incuding our game tomorrow had this to say...

I'm normally one of Liverpool's most severe critics but I thought they were unlucky in losing at Fulham on Monday. The Jay Spearing tackle [for which he was sent off] would not even have got a yellow five years ago - it was just a good, strong tackle for me - and if he doesn't get sent off, Liverpool don't lose in my opinion. But such is life, and Liverpool have to pick themselves up.

This weekend QPR are in town and Neil Warnock's boys have enjoyed a lot more success on the road than at home this season.

The thing with Liverpool, though, is that I think they're about to beat someone quite heavily at home. They have created loads of chances, they've endured draws against the likes of Manchester United, Manchester City and Swansea at home when perhaps they deserved more, and I just think someone's going to get rolled over.

That could be this weekend.


Welcome back Dude. I'm so pleased you're not dead!  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 09, 2011, 06:28:43 PM
Agreed ASI, its a terrible way to look at things and not an attitude that relates to the way LFC have gone about their business over time.

For me that kind of attitude is so far removed from the Liverpool Way.

I've been following Liverpool for nearly 40 years, and I am perplexed Juan, that you consider the present regime as conducting business in the Liverpool Way.
If I took more time, I could list a lot more aspects of the Liverpool Way.
In truth, the Liverpool Way (or much of it) is long since gone. 

What we are witnessing these past 18 months, is Kenny's Way.  Let's not confuse it with the old Liverpool Way. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 09, 2011, 06:43:56 PM
Well said Juan. People seems to expect instant success which surprises me with some on this forum. I agree there has been a complete transformation in our playing style and the players themselves go to training each day with a smile on their face. I'm sorry but that never happened with Roy and probably Rafa lovely bloke though he is.

We may not be knocking them in but at least we are creating the opportunity to score. Compare than with the situation a year or two ago when things were really dire. 0-0 at relegated Hull on the last day of the 2009/10 season anyone? Here's the team for that game:- Reina, Mascherano, Carragher, Kyrgiakos, Agger, Lucas, Gerrard, Babel (Robinson 86), El Zhar (Ngog 61), Aquilani (Pacheco 72), Kuyt.

I've read several journalists reports recently and none have said LFC are going backwards. Mark Lawrenson's predictions incuding our game tomorrow had this to say...

I'm normally one of Liverpool's most severe critics but I thought they were unlucky in losing at Fulham on Monday. The Jay Spearing tackle [for which he was sent off] would not even have got a yellow five years ago - it was just a good, strong tackle for me - and if he doesn't get sent off, Liverpool don't lose in my opinion. But such is life, and Liverpool have to pick themselves up.

This weekend QPR are in town and Neil Warnock's boys have enjoyed a lot more success on the road than at home this season.

The thing with Liverpool, though, is that I think they're about to beat someone quite heavily at home. They have created loads of chances, they've endured draws against the likes of Manchester United, Manchester City and Swansea at home when perhaps they deserved more, and I just think someone's going to get rolled over.

That could be this weekend.


Welcome back Dude. I'm so pleased you're not dead!  ;D

Thanks for the welcome back, Ray.  I ain't dead, or at least not been informed if so.  Mind you, I have been rather airy on my feet (but I blame the beer).

You and Juan are great guys (gotta come over some time and have beers here and vacation).  But I am perplexed as to your analysis of the events at Anfield.

Don't you realise that no player, nor ex employee of the club will rock the Anfield boat?    You got a tiny glimpse of exasperated honesty, when Agger said that some players cared more than others, and that we were running around like headless chickens.    Ring a bell?  I had been saying exactly the same thing (headless chickens).

You think our playing style has been transformed.  You are spot on.  We are now totally disorganised.  Kenny's buys have been pretty poor fare.  He seems to favour non-technical players.  That is most certainly NOT the Liverpool Way.  If we are going to hoof long balls to Carroll, then I suggest Kenny goes and manages Widnes or St Helens.

You think all is well because the lads now come into training with a smile on their faces.  I don't think Sir Bob or Sir Alex would operate under such criteria.

And if you have to start quoting Mark Lawrenson, then your case is well and truly lost.     :D

And we sacked Rafa for this. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 09, 2011, 07:00:23 PM
Thanks for the welcome back, Ray.  I ain't dead, or at least not been informed if so.  Mind you, I have been rather airy on my feet (but I blame the beer).
Aha! Finally, you've spotted my name. I was beginning to despair anyone would ever use it.

Quote
You and Juan are great guys (gotta come over some time and have beers here and vacation).  But I am perplexed as to your analysis of the events at Anfield.
Love to meet all who visit here. One day eh?

Quote
Don't you realise that no player, nor ex employee of the club will rock the Anfield boat?    You got a tiny glimpse of exasperated honesty, when Agger said that some players cared more than others, and that we were running around like headless chickens.    Ring a bell?  I had been saying exactly the same thing (headless chickens).
Yes I remember the Agger quote but not which game it was after. Spurs?

But you surely cannot have forgotten how many ex-players were openly critical of the war going on when H&G were in charge? Rush was very vocal as was Molby and Aldridge. Ian St John was also openly critical but no-one has said anything critical this season because our real enemy has been the woodwork and occasional ref. I can only recall the Spurs and Norwich games as being truly bad. Sunderland doesn't count as it was the first of the season.

Quote
You think our playing style has been transformed.  You are spot on.  We are now totally disorganised.  Kenny's buys have been pretty poor fare.  He seems to favour non-technical players.  That is most certainly NOT the Liverpool Way.  If we are going to hoof long balls to Carroll, then I suggest Kenny goes and manages Widnes or St Helens.
Come on Dude, you're not being fair. How can we been so disorganised yet have one of the best defensive records in the league. If you were talking about Utd, Arsenal or Chelsea I could understand it as they have all been hammered despite recent improvements.

And remember how our comeback in March 2009 against Manure started. A hoofed ball by Skrtel upfield towards Torres. Sometimes that kind of 'pass' can be highly effective.

Quote
You think all is well because the lads now come into training with a smile on their faces.  I don't think Sir Bob or Sir Alex would operate under such criteria.
I think you'll get far more out of a happy team than one that isn't. Have you ever worked in an office? Wherever you work the analogy works.

Quote
And if you have to start quoting Mark Lawrenson, then your case is well and truly lost.     :D
LOL! Have a read of this blog. Things aren't as bad as you think - honest!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 09, 2011, 07:01:54 PM
Welcome back Dude. I'm so pleased you're not dead!  ;D

Lol ASI for me that line alone gives you my vote for comment of the year. Funny stuff, although that said for a week or two there Dude the thought also crossed my mind.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 09, 2011, 07:13:35 PM
Lol ASI for me that line alone gives you my vote for comment of the year. Funny stuff, although that said for a week or two there Dude the thought also crossed my mind.
Thanks Juan but I can't take the credit for that line. It came from way back when we produced some good comedy but I don't remember which one. There was a line in Fawlty Towers when Basil was asked why he was so happy by one of the elderly ladies. "One of the guests has died"!! Classic!  :D

I also shared your concern about Dude. He'd either gone off in a huff; the end of season report was the undoing of him or he'd lost an arm-wrestle with the Grim Reaper!  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 09, 2011, 08:11:07 PM
I've been following Liverpool for nearly 40 years, and I am perplexed Juan, that you consider the present regime as conducting business in the Liverpool Way.
  • the Liverpool way was all about brutal footballing honesty (the fans never got to see a player who had lost a yard of pace - he was gone one summer without any fanfare).
  • the Liverpool Way was never about the creation or acceptance of egos or big stars (Bob Paisley was VERY big on this aspect, often refusing to talk about individual performances).
  • the Liverpool Way was about closing down, and lots of hard work, which no-one was immune to
  • the Liverpool Way was about keeping possession.
  • the Liverpool Way was about being comfortable in possession, dribbling out of defence
  • the Liverpool Way was never about moronic big hoofs from defence to attack
  • the Liverpool Way was about passing the ball to the person who was in a better position
  • the Liverpool Way was about conducting our business in private
  • the Liverpool Way was never about endless press conferences, nor endless regular gut-churning positive PR spin from players.
  • the Liverpool Way was about bringing in personnel that was better than what we already had at the club
  • the Liverpool Way was about having a chief scout, like  the awesome Geoff Twentyman, it was never about having a Director of Football
  • the Liverpool Way was never about throwing vast chunks of money away in the transfer market  (that was always Man Utd's style)
  • the Liverpool Way was about humility, it was about passion.
  • the Liverpool Way was never about orange boots, nor ridiculous haircuts.
  • the Liverpool Way was never about pretending to smoke lines of cocaine, or showing your as.s in mocking another player's sexuality.
If I took more time, I could list a lot more aspects of the Liverpool Way.
In truth, the Liverpool Way (or much of it) is long since gone. 

What we are witnessing these past 18 months, is Kenny's Way.  Let's not confuse it with the old Liverpool Way.

Dude some of your recollections of the Liverpool Way are very romantic to say the least. If you believe that the great Liverpool teams never misplayed a pass, never won matches ugly, never spent large sums at the time in the transfer market you are very much mistaken.

I agree that over the years just like the Boot Room the Liverpool way waned especially when the Premier League became such big business. However I also believe that Kenny has managed to revive many of those traditions that you yourself have listed above. He himself has spoken about going about our business in private. The odd occasion he has felt the need to defend a player or comment on a situation but otherwise has reverted to dealing with matters behind closed doors. Dalglish has shown humility, his team have displayed passion. Dropping points or losing a game doesnt mean the team lacks passion and to be honest thats one of the aspects where I think the players should be commended. There are alot of the qualities youve listed above that I can relate to the current team.

I dont understand the disdain for Dalglish. You constantly compare him unfavorably to Benitez but again you seem to forget that Rafa too had his faults, Rafa made mistakes, his weakened team at Reading, Aquilani etc. I am a huge Rafa fan but dont think the current regime would ever have him back. 

You can admit we are a work in progress yet you seem to want the finished article now.  Patience from the fans was always something this club was renowned for. Admittedly that was something Roy didnt get but I think most people believed he was the wrong man at the wrong time for the wrong club. If Dalglish isnt afforded the patience he deserves we could well go down the same route as Newcastle or Chelsea and change our manager every year. Fortunately I think our owners give Kenny more credit than hes afforded from some fans.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 09, 2011, 08:28:56 PM
I also shared your concern about Dude. He'd either gone off in a huff; the end of season report was the undoing of him or he'd lost an arm-wrestle with the Grim Reaper!  ;D

Dude as Ray has mentioned above we're still waiting on that end of season report. Maybe we should make it bi-annual altogether  ;)?

Considering the contents would undoubtedly be of a sensitive / controversial  nature we would most likely have to put a party together to collect it at yours. And sure it would be just rude not to stay for that beer or ten!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 09, 2011, 08:37:20 PM
I'm speechless! There are 72 points up for grabs, we're 5 points off 4th and you have written off the rest of the season!  :o Maybe it's a Scandinavian thing. ::) I remain positive we can still achieve 4th or higher.

5 points off 4th is probably the closest we'll get between now and the end of the season. When I say the season's over (based on watching us for 30 + years) you say I'm no Liverpool fan, when it turns out I was right a few months later you slate me for being right. I don't remember the Liverpool fan of yesteryear basing his or her analysis on wishful thinking and if's and but's analysis á la Tomkins, but rather on a knowledgeable, critical and logical out look. Today proof of progress is slotting in below par academy players, playing well despite drawing at home to new comers, "at least we're creating chances". The fan of yesteryear would never accept this pathetic inconsistency that plagues us, the fan of yesteryear would never accept that expensive, yet worthless, signings are being played at the expense of better and more experienced players.

You harp on about the 81 season. I actually remember it pretty well. I remember the feeling at christmas we could win the remaining games. Today people's expectations would burst through the roof if we won 4 on the trot. 2 times over the last decade we've managed to string 6 straight wins or more together. 2 TIMES IN 10 YEARS!!!!!. And you just think it's about us going on a good run. What are you basing that on really? Especially when our manager doesn't have a clue as to what's his best team.

It may be a Scandinavian thingy to view things this way but that doesn't make it less realistic and sober. 6th is the very best we can ever hope for this season and it breaks my ferkin heart to say it.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 09, 2011, 10:09:08 PM
Martin,

You and I are diametrically opposed on our views of Liverpool FC. Because of that reason I don't feel it's worthwhile to continue this debate with you because you view everything as half-empty whereas I prefer to take a more positive attitude even if it sometimes means I'm more disappointed than you because I often expect us to win a game.

You seem to think the modern fan is a pale imitation of the one from 30 years ago. Back then there was no radio phone-in, no message boards, no rolling Sky Sports news and very little live football. In short, unless you actually went to the game you couldn't express a meaningful opinion on how well or not the team performed.

I did go to Anfield in the early 80s and I can assure you I saw plenty of poor football played inbetween some excellent games. I remember us losing to Leicester, drawing with newly promoted Swansea and more often than not, losing to Manure. We didn't roll everyone over who came to Anfield. We were more consistent than now because we used to win titles but there were years when we didn't.

There is a lot of inconsistency amongst the top teams this season. City are the only team that have been consistently good and were scoring for fun until they came to Anfield. If we were that poor and disorganised they would have turned us over. They didn't because the team is better than a lot of people give it credit for.

I've seen your 'best 11' and I have to say it amazes me that you consider Coates good enough to throw into a league game when his understanding of English is very limited and he still isn't used to the pace of the game.

Look at how damaging poor communication is with Manure's 'keeper and his defence. That is one argument you cannot level at LFC. We'll see how things pan out but I expect us to finish higher than 6th.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 10, 2011, 02:29:53 AM
LOL, The Liverpool Way, we should have copyrighted it

Fergie stole the entire thing years ago!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 10, 2011, 01:44:52 PM
LOL, The Liverpool Way, we should have copyrighted it

Fergie stole the entire thing years ago!

exactly, Ed.    Indeed, I was gonna add that to my post above.

Sadly, many reds fans are still taken in by the mantra.  i.e. if Kenny says it's the Liverpool Way, then it must be the Liverpool Way.   ::)

It's ridiculous.  Fergie stole our template decades ago.  I wish some fans had a brain in their heads.   

For one thing, this whole DECENCY thing was NEVER part of the Liverpool Way - it instead was something that evolved from the David Moores era.   It came from his personality/business methods.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 10, 2011, 02:25:00 PM
I agree that over the years just like the Boot Room the Liverpool way waned especially when the Premier League became such big business. However I also believe that Kenny has managed to revive many of those traditions that you yourself have listed above. He himself has spoken about going about our business in private. The odd occasion he has felt the need to defend a player or comment on a situation but otherwise has reverted to dealing with matters behind closed doors. Dalglish has shown humility 

humility is another area where Kenny only talks the talk.  He reminds me of David O'Leary who never tired of telling others how humble and sincere he was (what a laugh).

but let's get back to Kenny.  Kenny and Comolli are never done slapping each other on the back, and telling us how great each other is.  Everybody seems to think everyone else is great, wonderful, awesome....instead of keeping their mouths shut and getting on with their job.

If I had scouted and brought in the likes of Carroll, I sure as hell would keep my head down.

90 million quid spent, and not one of the buys is a world beater.  Carroll is apparently the pick of this generation of new english talent.    And think about it, what faith can one have in all their other many purchases of young talent (lads we have yet to see), when their 35 million quid marquee signing is so dire. 

The club has gone backwards, tactically..... and has failed to push on, talent wise.  I still think a top manager could deploy our assets much better.  I think we have a lot of talent on the pitch and in the dugout.  The lack of talent is with Kenny and Comolli.

but I feel like saying those immortal Bill Shankly words, when being surrounded by gesticulating Juano and Rayo, tells his translator: "Just tell them I completely disagree with everything they say!"          ;D

Kenny's reign (and limited team building and tactical ability) is exactly as I had predicted (and many others predicted too).   You are correct, we don't want to be sacking our boss every year or two.  That's why we need to be appointing the right one from the get-go.  Hell, we wouldn't be in this position if some people had not slagged Rafa (and got him sacked).  Unforgivable from Mr and Mrs Liverpool and their big mate Bascoombe in the media. 

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 10, 2011, 02:48:57 PM
exactly, Ed.    Indeed, I was gonna add that to my post above.

Sadly, many reds fans are still taken in by the mantra.  i.e. if Kenny says it's the Liverpool Way, then it must be the Liverpool Way.   ::)

It's ridiculous.  Fergie stole our template decades ago.  I wish some fans had a brain in their heads.   

For one thing, this whole DECENCY thing was NEVER part of the Liverpool Way - it instead was something that evolved from the David Moores era.   It came from his personality/business methods.

I've been trying to say this or at least something to this effect for a long time. Well said, dude. Again I agree with every word you say. It's not about a half glass perspective an'all that crap, it's calling it as it is.

Anyway, at least Kenny picked a good starting line up meaning we'll probably win this 3-1 or 4-1.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 10, 2011, 03:23:19 PM
I'd be happy if we win by a couple of goals, Martin.

But I would not be surprised if we make a pig's bottom of it.


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 10, 2011, 03:52:13 PM
It's amazing really we're 0-0 at half time after 9 efforts on goal and something like 75 -25 in possession. I would take Henderson off and replace him with Bellars and play Agger in the center for 2nd half. QPR knows time is now on their side and every minute without conceding will only see them grow in confidence.

Downing and Henderson - what a waste of 36 million.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 10, 2011, 04:24:22 PM
downing and henderson are good lads.  I am glad that we have them.

but they are not at the level (and never will be) of say a maxi rodriguez......and Rafa bought Maxi for one a half million quid.   

kenny and comolli are only good at spending big money, their ability to spot inexpensive gems, is non-existent.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 10, 2011, 05:22:24 PM
downing and henderson are good lads.  I am glad that we have them.

Me too am glad we have them, I couldn't possibly think of a better way of spending 36 million.

Good result embarrassing and pathetic last 20 which is proof in itself why we won't have a sniff at anything above 6th.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 10, 2011, 05:36:58 PM
our football this season has often been of top 8 standard.

but at our best this season, we are capable of top 6.

newcastle will fall away.

man city, man utd will be top 2.     chelsea, spurs, arsenal and liverpool will be in the next tier.  I'd reckon two from arsenal/spurs and chelsea (for the other 2 CL spots).  I wouldn't be surprised if arsenal and spurs took those two spots.  Chelsea look in need of major rebuilding.




Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 11, 2011, 11:44:34 PM
Aha! Finally, you've spotted my name. I was beginning to despair anyone would ever use it.
Love to meet all who visit here. One day eh?

definitely, Ray.    A tropical vacation here.  A mid winter break is best.....our summer (i.e. dry season) starts in mid December approx.......which is height of British winter. 

PS - I don't think I saw your name til recently....and by that point I was so used to calling you, ASI


Dude as Ray has mentioned above we're still waiting on that end of season report. Maybe we should make it bi-annual altogether  ;) ?

Considering the contents would undoubtedly be of a sensitive / controversial  nature we would most likely have to put a party together to collect it at yours. And sure it would be just rude not to stay for that beer or ten!

sounds the biz, Juan!   You gotta all come over, if the German motherland permits exit by that point, by satellite state members, on overseas vacations.

beer here is 30 to 35 cents a bottle.........I pay maybe 8 or 9 dollars for a 24 bottle crate (of their top number one award winning beer).

as for my annual report - it is uncannily spot on.   Unlike Nostradamus, I spell it out in plain words.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 12, 2011, 12:40:40 AM
PS -   aye, bi-annual  :D   sounds the way to go (given the economic meltdown and the lack of resources in the west and the dude household).     

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on December 12, 2011, 01:57:08 PM
downing and henderson are good lads.  I am glad that we have them.

but they are not at the level (and never will be) of say a maxi rodriguez......and Rafa bought Maxi for one a half million quid.   

kenny and comolli are only good at spending big money, their ability to spot inexpensive gems, is non-existent.

Excellent point Dude.  Maxi has technical ability, speed, gets into scoring positions but more importantly links up the foward play with Suarez and Bellamy very well.  Downing started the season off really well initially but like Ashley Young at Utd seems to have gone off the boil some what. 

I pray Maxi gets a run in the team.....
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 12, 2011, 05:00:29 PM
So we'd better not let Commolli and Dalglish do Santa's buying for him this year otherwise the world will be full of disappointed children.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 12, 2011, 05:25:15 PM
Excellent point Dude.  Maxi has technical ability, speed, gets into scoring positions but more importantly links up the foward play with Suarez and Bellamy very well.  Downing started the season off really well initially but like Ashley Young at Utd seems to have gone off the boil some what. 

I pray Maxi gets a run in the team.....

absolutely, Gurdeep.

Indeed, I'd suggest that if Maxi does not get a regular start in the team, Kenny will be definitely picking up his P45 in May.

Ironic though, the more things change, the more they stay the same.    All this money spent, and we are having to revert to Rafa's players to get results.   I thought Maxi was superb against QPR (up there for Man of the Match).  And when he was subbed, you could hear the fans roaring their appreciation, and some of the players came over and patted him on the back.   Kuyt ran his socks off in the game....superb lad.

So much for all these big money transfers this year.  Suarez aside (and remember he was not earmarked by Kenny/Comolli), we still  rely on the older lads.

So much for moneyball....more like goldenbull
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 12, 2011, 05:30:33 PM
So we'd better not let Commolli and Dalglish do Santa's buying for him this year otherwise the world will be full of disappointed children.  :D

 :D

the pair of them couldn't spot a bargain if it fell on them.

ironic that the same fans who shat upon Rafa's dealings in the transfer market, are sure quiet as hell these days.    They seem to use a different set of rules to judge Kenny's signings.     


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 12, 2011, 09:02:25 PM
:D

the pair of them couldn't spot a bargain if it fell on them.

ironic that the same fans who shat upon Rafa's dealings in the transfer market, are sure quiet as hell these days.    They seem to use a different set of rules to judge Kenny's signings.   

Now now Dude lets play fair  ;D.

Even if Kenny didnt earmark Suarez Comolli was probably the catalyst there. Roy went to watch him but that was most likely on Comollis recommendation.

And if you are going to give them guff for signing Carroll, Downing, Henderson etc how about also affording them some credit for signing Enrique, Adam and Bellamy. All 3 were brilliantly spotted bargains.

Theres no question Maxi deserves to be starting but he wasnt always Mr consistent. When he arrived first he actually looked like a 1.5 million pound player rather than the quality player we see today so it can take players time to find their feet at a club.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 12, 2011, 09:08:31 PM
One other point that Ive never heard raised.

I have often heard Kenny castigated for signing Andy Carroll. What I never hear is any credit been given for selling Torres  for 50 million. Kenny could have done what Spurs did with Modric and refused point blank to sell but he didnt and by Nandos current form Liverpool probably got 49 million too much. Surely some credit has to go to Kenny and Comolli there.

Plus the fact he actually got somebody to pay us cash for Babel!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 12, 2011, 09:39:42 PM
So much for moneyball....

This was the thing that I found the most confusing at the time and still do. I was looking forward to the Hyypia, Alonso, Riena, Arbeloa type signings. Underrated and undervalued (at the time of transfer) which all went on to make bigger contributions and play a more significant part than their previous reputations and fees would have suggested.

I think I may have mentioned it/them once or twice previously.  :D

So far Bellamy, Enrique and Adam (if he continues his improvement) sort of fall into that catagory or at last are proving good value (obviously we knew what was what with Bellamy, maybe more than the others).

Henderson is the right player at the wrong time. I feel he will come good as he develops but the first Summer with the big outlay needed to bring us the impact now. Get back in the CL and then progress with the advantages (both on and off the pitch) that should bring.

Still, we have more than half a season left and I've promised myself (in my old age) I won't make proper judgements until game 38 in the league has finished.   
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 12, 2011, 11:12:55 PM
One other point that Ive never heard raised.

I have often heard Kenny castigated for signing Andy Carroll. What I never hear is any credit been given for selling Torres  for 50 million. Kenny could have done what Spurs did with Modric and refused point blank to sell but he didnt and by Nandos current form Liverpool probably got 49 million too much. Surely some credit has to go to Kenny and Comolli there.

Torres was done at least 18 months before we sold him.  I said it often enough in here.  Though admittedly some don't want to read, or acknowledge, reality.  What I always wonder is why we have such a time lag between a problem showing up and reacting to it.  It happens all the time these past 15 plus years.     That did not happen in the distant past, when we operated under the Liverpool Way.

Kenny I imagine let Torres go for the money, not because he had spotted that the lad was done.   And to use 35 million of the money on a clearly inferior replacement striker, who couldn't trap a bag of cement, and who is as slow as a Lada-full of elephants in the Pennines.  He might as well have gone out and burnt the money in the centre circle.



Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 12, 2011, 11:25:11 PM
This was the thing that I found the most confusing at the time and still do. I was looking forward to the Hyypia, Alonso, Riena, Arbeloa type signings. Underrated and undervalued (at the time of transfer) which all went on to make bigger contributions and play a more significant part than their previous reputations and fees would have suggested.

I think I may have mentioned it/them once or twice previously.  :D

So far Bellamy, Enrique and Adam (if he continues his improvement) sort of fall into that catagory or at last are proving good value (obviously we knew what was what with Bellamy, maybe more than the others).

agreed re Henderson.....a good lad, plenty of potential, but possibly wrong player at the wrong time.  And I DEFINITELY would have slowly introduced him, not thrown him into the team from the start.   But give him a year or two, and he should significantly improve and offer more.

Adam is a good lad, always liked him.  I was hoping he'd be more of a Paul Scholes type.  But he's more of a Danny Murphy type.  Not a world beater.  But a good player.

Bellamy and Enrique were frees.  Easy to spot Bellamy, given his age and experience at this level.  Indeed Rafa already had.    Sadly age is the issue, re what he can add in the future.   Enrique is a great lad.  A good free signing.   

But after spending 112 million quid this year, why have we not pushed on?   

Has our spending made our team better?  Have we now got better technical players than we had a year ago?

My answer is no.  To get results, Kenny is depending on Rafa's players.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 13, 2011, 12:59:11 AM
Now now Dude lets play fair  ;D .

Even if Kenny didnt earmark Suarez Comolli was probably the catalyst there. Roy went to watch him but that was most likely on Comollis recommendation.

And if you are going to give them guff for signing Carroll, Downing, Henderson etc how about also affording them some credit for signing Enrique, Adam and Bellamy. All 3 were brilliantly spotted bargains.

Theres no question Maxi deserves to be starting but he wasnt always Mr consistent. When he arrived first he actually looked like a 1.5 million pound player rather than the quality player we see today so it can take players time to find their feet at a club.

 >:( >:( >:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( ???
 
 Juan, I had spent ages on a long reply.....and then it didn't send.............grrrrrrrrr..... all lost
 
 pee poo pee poo
 
 
 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 14, 2011, 05:20:16 PM
Guys, I'd be quite optimistic at the moment.

I think Kenny is showing good management skills,
at a tricky point in the season. The important thing
v QPR was the result and we got it.

The positives, imo. Skrtel has come a lot on under Dalglish
and Clarke. Crikey, i even saw him do an Agger-esque
feign and switch against QPR.

Henderson has an opportunity now in the absence of
Lucas to get more game time (same way once upon a
time, Lucas himself did).

Maxi has been fantastic for us recently.

Whatever is being done on the training ground in terms of
keeping possession was there for all to see on Saturday.

Shelvey & Bellamy are two guys that give us energy and
attacking options from the bench in the last 10 minutes.
Particularly at Anfield in the case of Shelvey.

Stevie G is on the way back (i think!).

Most importantly, i get the impression of a good team spirit
in the dressing room and i think there's a lot of character in
the side. We could be in with a good chance of a cup this season!

Hoping Downing lets rip against Villa!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 14, 2011, 09:27:17 PM
>:( >:( >:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( ???
 
 Juan, I had spent ages on a long reply.....and then it didn't send.............grrrrrrrrr..... all lost
 
 pee poo pee poo

Hate that Dude. Happens to me regularly  >:(.

Saw an interesting story that made me think "What would Dude say to that". Anyway it was to do with Rafa, he states that Gerrard is the best player hes ever managed. Thats high praise for someone who managed a Valencia side with some very good players and an Inter side who had just won the European Cup.

I know your feelings of Gerrard and of Rafa. Would the fact that Benitez thinks so highly of Gerrard make you change your mind on the player and what hes done for the club?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 15, 2011, 03:21:06 PM
Hate that Dude. Happens to me regularly  >:( .

Saw an interesting story that made me think "What would Dude say to that". Anyway it was to do with Rafa, he states that Gerrard is the best player hes ever managed. Thats high praise for someone who managed a Valencia side with some very good players and an Inter side who had just won the European Cup.

I know your feelings of Gerrard and of Rafa. Would the fact that Benitez thinks so highly of Gerrard make you change your mind on the player and what hes done for the club?

yes, a pain in the posterior when a long reply doesn't send, Juan.   I usually right-click select/copy before sending....but this time I forgot to. 

as for Rafa and Captain Marvel.....Rafa is probably talking about Marvel's engine.  Plus, Rafa's a political animal.  He craves a chance to manage again at Anfield, thus he will say the right things. 

Marvel was our version of Utd's Bryan Robson.   They won no titles either during his glorious me-me-me reign.  It was when the english emperor was on the wane and had turned 36, that Utd won their first title since the black and white era.

the english media need an english god, to worship.  Nothing has changed in my lifetime. 

Didi Hamann's second half introduction transformed the CL final, but you'll have to whisper that in lowered voices, lest  you be hung drawn and quartered (in front of your wives and Clarkson).



 



Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 15, 2011, 04:13:08 PM
I know your feelings of Gerrard and of Rafa. Would the fact that Benitez thinks so highly of Gerrard make you change your mind on the player and what hes done for the club?
Of course Rafa's gonna say that. ffs, Stevie G inspired our Istanbul triumph by
standing up to the arrogant AC Milan and sticking it past (i forget the name of
their keeper) in what is one of the great goals in all of football. Similarly in the FA
cup final, in the dying seconds he hits a screamer with the last kick in normal time.
Not forgetting the other important goals he scored during Rafa's reign.

Nobody's going to deny (even Dude, methinks) the contribution that Gerrard has made
to LFC.

However, we have also been completely humiliated in the league for the last 20 years
by a certain c**t managing our fiercest rivals up the motorway. That's the problem, Stevie
has never delivered the title....enough said!!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 16, 2011, 03:59:00 AM
Of course Rafa's gonna say that. ffs, Stevie G inspired our Istanbul triumph by
standing up to the arrogant AC Milan and sticking it past (i forget the name of
their keeper) in what is one of the great goals in all of football.

it's all kept hush hush.....but ac milan raped our central midfield in the first half.  They by-passed it.  It's like it did not exist.

it's a team game....but the transformation was made at half time, when Didi Hamann came on.  But he's a German, thus he cannae get the plaudits from the english media.

Similarly in the FA cup final, in the dying seconds he hits a screamer with the last kick in normal time.

great saving goal, but it's the other 89 minutes contribution that caused concern, Ed.

Bryan Robson used to pull off similar super-hero antics. 

When you've got a good man in a crisis, you always tend to have crisis.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 16, 2011, 12:50:13 PM
When you've got a good man in a crisis, you always tend to have crisis.
ROFL, Jan Molby could hit screamers too and was one of the most
intelligent distributors of a ball, I've ever seen (I could watch Molby
play football all day). I can't argue with some of the heroics
Stevie has performed over the years. I just prefer Graeme & Jan.

It's 2008/2009 that proves the point for me regarding the league.
Captain should have stood up & driven us to the title, he should
have been in Fergie's face after the "fakt" debacle. But, alas, it's just
not his way.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 16, 2011, 05:08:38 PM
ROFL, Jan Molby could hit screamers too and was one of the most
intelligent distributors of a ball, I've ever seen (I could watch Molby
play football all day). I can't argue with some of the heroics
Stevie has performed over the years. I just prefer Graeme & Jan.

me too.

yes, Jan was a joy to watch.  For a player of his stature, he had such a delightful touch.  His distribution, and strength of pass, were second to none.


It's 2008/2009 that proves the point for me regarding the league.
Captain should have stood up & driven us to the title, he should
have been in Fergie's face after the "fakt" debacle. But, alas, it's just
not his way.

yes, in the modern era, the big egos get pandered to.  Never was the Liverpool Way.

Can't imagine what Sir Bob would have said.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 18, 2011, 03:04:37 PM
Kenny so needs to take off either Henderson or Shelvey or both. We're effectively playing with 9 men. If he waits, as per usual, to the 80th minute before making any changes and we drop points then I'm done with him. Thank God Villa's so poor going forward or we'd be down by now.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 18, 2011, 03:10:18 PM
We're 2-0 up and Shelvey created the first and all you can do is criticise. Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :'(
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 18, 2011, 03:18:51 PM
If he waits, as per usual, to the 80th minute before making any changes and we drop points

Im sure dropping points would make your day Martin, give you more to moan about.

If we lose or draw, we're crap. If we win we're crap. Fans like you have unrealistic expectations and are never happy.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 18, 2011, 03:22:33 PM
Suarez has hit the woodwork twice in the last 10 minutes. He's crap!!  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 18, 2011, 04:05:29 PM
Another 3 points, another good performance, more nice football, the best defence in the premier league, tough times to be a Liverpool fan, sack Kenny and the board!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 18, 2011, 04:14:02 PM
Another 3 points, another good performance, more nice football, the best defence in the premier league, tough times to be a Liverpool fan, sack Kenny and the board!
;D Good times indeed Juan. Pity we couldn't add any more in the second half to overtake Arsenal but with the Wigan game on Wed it was important we had no injuries. We're leading by a mile for post hitting. Another 2 today!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 18, 2011, 04:28:25 PM
;D Good times indeed Juan. Pity we couldn't add any more in the second half to overtake Arsenal but with the Wigan game on Wed it was important we had no injuries. We're leading by a mile for post hitting. Another 2 today!

I think we are very close to being an excellent side that will challenge for major honours. And whats even more pleasing is the style of football we have adopted under KD.

If we can add that elusive goalscorer up front we wont be far off City and United.

Good times arent far off Ray.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 18, 2011, 04:34:25 PM
Agreed. We haven't hit any headlines by knocking in 6 or 8 but then again we haven't 6 like some I could mention. We haven't conceded more than 1 in a game since 18 Sept at Spurs. Continue with that defensive form, add another striker in Jan and things will get even better.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 18, 2011, 04:42:32 PM
The post should be the first through the door when the January window opens. No, pace, no technique, no movement. Justs lets the ball hit it and bounce off. 17 attempts no goals. Useless. Just useless.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 18, 2011, 04:42:53 PM
I think its easy to praise the likes of Bellamy, Suarez etc because their contribution is so telling at times but four player that I think deserve a huge amount of praise are Johnson, Skrtel, Agger and Enrique.

I've often been critic of Skrtel and Johnson especially but both players are playing very well within this newly formed defence. Without Carragher Johnson doesnt seem to get caught out as much. Skrtels partnership with Agger looks rock solid and he seems less error prone at the moment. Long may it continue.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 18, 2011, 04:45:35 PM
The post should be the first through the door when the January window opens. No, pace, no technique, no movement. Justs lets the ball hit it and bounce off. 17 attempts no goals. Useless. Just useless.

Lol does nothing for team morale, always just sitting there pulling a face.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 18, 2011, 04:52:29 PM
The one person who may be worried by the return of the transfer window is Carroll.

I have no criticism of his play today, he didnt exactly have alot of time to do anything of note. However the more I see of him the more I think that his attributes dont match what is required to play up front for us in this team. 

Would Kenny take 20 million for him if he was offered it in January?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 18, 2011, 05:01:05 PM
The one person who may be worried by the return of the transfer window is Carroll.

I have no criticism of his play today, he didnt exactly have alot of time to do anything of note. However the more I see of him the more I think that his attributes dont match what is required to play up front for us in this team. 

Would Kenny take 20 million for him if he was offered it in January?

As long as the £20M was saved for the Summer window, giving us time to use it wisely rather than buy an overpriced replacement off a club that doesn't really want to lose a player mid-season. There aren't obvious replacements, but he's not getting game time enough to contribute anything when he does. He simply makes us up to 11 when Suarez goes off. A bit like Downing, I don't think they have the mentality to be at a big club where there are expectations, rather than 'hopes'. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 18, 2011, 05:03:15 PM
Another 3 points, another good performance, more nice football, the best defence in the premier league, tough times to be a Liverpool fan, sack Kenny and the board!

You'd be forgiven for thinking we'd be distancing the pack with 10 points rather than sitting firmly at 6th, judging by that post. But it's a sign of the modern LFC fan. Picking up bits and pieces here and there refusing to see the whole picture.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 18, 2011, 05:11:19 PM
I've often been critic of Skrtel and Johnson especially but both players are playing very well within this newly formed defence. Without Carragher Johnson doesnt seem to get caught out as much. Skrtels partnership with Agger looks rock solid and he seems less error prone at the moment. Long may it continue.

Likewise Juan, I've often thought that Skrtel only had a certain level in him and that was only enough to be cover, but this season I'm chuffed to be proved wrong. He's got to be our most improved player and as you state both him and Johnson look more confortable without Carragher in there. Maybe it's a compliment of styles, or not having their confidence undermined by Carra's bad reactions to his own dwindling abilities. It's both sad and hard to accept for anyone who can't perform at something in a way they used to but it's a fact of life which needs accepting.

Carra would do well to take on a player-coach role in the Summer, with the emphasis being on learning the coaching side. He'd leave with his head held high and it would be a fitting end to the contribution he's made over the years. He was never the greatest footballer or even defender, but like Keegan, he's wrung the absolute maximum out of the talent he's had, and I hope both the opportunity is there and the right decision is taken by everyone involved.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 18, 2011, 06:26:46 PM
But it's a sign of the modern LFC fan. Picking up bits and pieces here and there refusing to see the whole picture.

Haha Martin you are the epitome of the modern day football fan. You have unrealistic expectations, you arent happy unless you see Barcelona-esque performances week in week out (todays comments prove that) , you have no patience with players or management and you seem to ignore the fact that we are competing with 5 other very talented teams. To sum you up you complain if we lose and complain if we win.

The whole picture as I see it is that we are building a side here that will compete for major honours. That takes time. If thats not fast enough for you or if you cant take the off days that goes with that I suggest you do as many other modern day football fans do go follow the cash and support Man City. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 18, 2011, 06:32:51 PM
You'd be forgiven for thinking we'd be distancing the pack with 10 points rather than sitting firmly at 6th, judging by that post. But it's a sign of the modern LFC fan. Picking up bits and pieces here and there refusing to see the whole picture.

No manager in world football could have taken us from where we were to where we want to be with the budget we had and are likely to have going forward. The progress can't be instant. How much has it taken Man City to get near the top. Likewise, Taggart, without that once in a lifetime crop of kids and constantly having one of and at many times the biggest budget wouldn't have achieved everything.
Mistakes get made in the transfer market but when your budget is at a certain level those mistakes become highlighted more accutely because they can't be rectified easily.

At the moment, compared to where we were and what we went through under Hicks and Gillett, it's understandable that most people are enjoying what in comparison is a relatively enjoyable time.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 18, 2011, 06:35:34 PM
Likewise Juan, I've often thought that Skrtel only had a certain level in him and that was only enough to be cover, but this season I'm chuffed to be proved wrong. He's got to be our most improved player and as you state both him and Johnson look more confortable without Carragher in there. Maybe it's a compliment of styles, or not having their confidence undermined by Carra's bad reactions to his own dwindling abilities. It's both sad and hard to accept for anyone who can't perform at something in a way they used to but it's a fact of life which needs accepting.

Carra would do well to take on a player-coach role in the Summer, with the emphasis being on learning the coaching side. He'd leave with his head held high and it would be a fitting end to the contribution he's made over the years. He was never the greatest footballer or even defender, but like Keegan, he's wrung the absolute maximum out of the talent he's had, and I hope both the opportunity is there and the right decision is taken by everyone involved.

Agreed Tes I do think Agger and Skrtels styles suit each other. And as you say we no longer have Carras dwindling abilities causing havoc. His lack of speed was a problem and we were often found out if Johnson had ventured forward, Carra could  be left exposed at the back.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 18, 2011, 06:53:52 PM
Juan / Tes, you're quite right about Jamie and it's quite sad to see one of our loyal servants reduced to a 10 minute cameo. But the team has to come first and it must be very difficult for Kenny to sideline him.

But Jamie is a class act and has never complained. He knows there can be no sentiment in football. Top man!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 18, 2011, 11:46:31 PM
The post should be the first through the door when the January window opens. No, pace, no technique, no movement. Justs lets the ball hit it and bounce off. 17 attempts no goals. Useless. Just useless.
Hey leave Post alone, I'm nearly sure he got the last touch for Beller's goal against Brighton. :P
I missed the Post-match interview  :D

Good result today against a depleted (did you see their bench :'() Villa today.
Our bench, by contrast, currently looks quite impressive.

Precisely the sort of game we need at the moment.

Brave decision by Dalglish to start with Shelvey. Love the whole collective
attitude that we have now toward defending in the absence of Lucas. I think
that's the key for Kenny, get that team ethic right and we've enough quality
to be competitive in the league.

In for a tough one against Wigan!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on December 20, 2011, 08:13:24 PM
8 match ban for Suarez...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 20, 2011, 08:18:02 PM
8 match ban for Suarez...
I find that very surprising given the time it's taken for them to reach a decision. Striker definitely needed in Jan.

How will the owners react to a LFC player found guilty of racism? Would be crazy to sell him but sh*t sticks and all other clubs will always remind us and him of it.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 20, 2011, 08:20:48 PM
Ban suspended pending appeal which must be made within 14 days. Full report here:-

http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/Disciplinary/NewsAndFeatures/2011/luis-suarez-20-12-11
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 20, 2011, 08:33:47 PM
And a very robust statement from LFC. Reading between the lines they are absolutely livid.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/liverpool-fc-statement-8
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 20, 2011, 08:49:53 PM
Absolute farce, but Taggart must be appeased.

As soon as they decided they actually had some evidence (Evra's word) there was always a great danger he would be found guilty.

The problem with these sort of cases, as in ones where accusations of any sexual nature is involved, is that the authorities are scared not to 'believe' the accuser due to nothing else than the nature of the accusation alone.

Let's see what the FA do with the Ingurland captain.

I just hope this doesn't make Suarez think twice about being in England and look to leave either in January or the Summer.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 20, 2011, 09:29:55 PM
I find that very surprising given the time it's taken for them to reach a decision. Striker definitely needed in Jan.

How will the owners react to a LFC player found guilty of racism? Would be crazy to sell him but sh*t sticks and all other clubs will always remind us and him of it.

I don't think FSG will be fooled by the Kangaroo Court that is the FA, especially when it has anything that includes the Mancs. David Gill, FA executive............ surely not.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 20, 2011, 09:34:21 PM
I don't think FSG will be fooled by the Kangaroo Court that is the FA, especially when it has anything that includes the Mancs. David Gill, FA executive............ surely not.
I wrote that before reading the club's response. Clearly they're not going to take this lying down. Can the ban be extended for a failed appeal?

Realistically, what chance is there of the ban being reduced? Can you take it to a higher body? UEFA? European Court?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 20, 2011, 09:51:11 PM
I wrote that before reading the club's response. Clearly they're not going to take this lying down. Can the ban be extended for a failed appeal?

Realistically, what chance is there of the ban being reduced? Can you take it to a higher body? UEFA? European Court?

I'm not sure whether this falls under the criteria where the ban can be extended. That does apply to bans as a result of cards but I'm not sure in this instance.

I guess it depends on the wording of the ruling and how they've arrived at their 'verdict' as to whether we have grounds to appeal.

What I do know is that we've been shafted twice now by the FA with regards to their initiatives. Mascherano, coincidentally (or not) against the Mancs when 'Respect' version one was introduced and now under their recent 'racism' initiative. How many other players have 'fallen foul' of these? None spring readily to mind.

Watching MOTD2 on Sunday, Rooney showed flagrant dissent to the referree, both with his gestures and what he said (no lip reading expertise needed), and yet what ever becomes of this when it happens on a match by match basis, or is caught quite clearly on camera, exactly, sweet FA. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 20, 2011, 09:52:16 PM
It's beyond a farce tes, it's a ferkin assult on the player, the club and its fans. I'm shocked and appalled and couldn't believe my eyes when I read it. Through the years I sometimes hear some fans say the establishment has a hidden agenda towards this club. For the first time I think they were right.

The FA just took away whatever chance we had to finish 4th.

If, as you say, this forces Luiz to leave I'll stop watching footy. I'm sad and angry beyond words.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 20, 2011, 10:01:13 PM
I'm not sure whether this falls under the criteria where the ban can be extended. That does apply to bans as a result of cards but I'm not sure in this instance.

I guess it depends on the wording of the ruling and how they've arrived at their 'verdict' as to whether we have grounds to appeal.
The FA statement clearly states an appeal is allowed so you can rest assured LFC will hire the best legal minds available.

Quote
What I do know is that we've been shafted twice now by the FA with regards to their initiatives. Mascherano, coincidentally (or not) against the Mancs when 'Respect' version one was introduced and now under their recent 'racism' initiative. How many other players have 'fallen foul' of these? None spring readily to mind.
Masch got himself sent off for gobbing off to the ref when his team-mates were trying to haul him away.

Rooney got hit with a 3 match ban for swearing into a TV camera a few months ago.

Quote
Watching MOTD2 on Sunday, Rooney showed flagrant dissent to the referree, both with his gestures and what he said (no lip reading expertise needed), and yet what ever becomes of this when it happens on a match by match basis, or is caught quite clearly on camera, exactly, sweet FA.
Missed that both live and on MoTD. None of the pundits mentioned it.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 20, 2011, 10:41:40 PM
saw this coming.......the long delay in dealing with the issue, was a major clue as to what was coming.

any reasonable investigatory body would have dismissed this inside the first few days - citing insufficient evidence.  He said/she said, is never sufficient - especially not for something of this significance (which racism is in the modern era).

but as usual the club are always way way too nice....thus they always end up being shafted.

my legal advice to the player, on the weekend it happened, would have been to sue Evra for slander.  That way, you immediately put the ball back in their court.

and also, I imagine (I am no expert) any FA investigation would have to take a backseat to any ongoing high court actions.

if evra wants to play hardball, and ruin a person's career, then we can all play that game.

at this point, I'd go after Evra for slander and appeal the FA's decision, and if needs be take the case all the way up to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS).

the only annoying thing is, that the sh.itstorm will last the entire season and well beyond. 

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 20, 2011, 11:45:11 PM
John M. Henry needs to call in the lawyers!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 20, 2011, 11:50:49 PM

any reasonable investigatory body would have dismissed this inside the first few days - citing insufficient evidence.  He said/she said, is never sufficient - especially not for something of this significance (which racism is in the modern era).

I actually cant believe it.

If the FA could categorical prove that Suarez racially abused Evra I would say 8 game ban fair enough. But like you say Dude the fact that its Evras word against Suarez and the fact that Evra has priors with regard to making unfounded racial abuse accusations makes this judgement farcical.

I really hope Liverpool go as far as possible with this and as you say Dude even for Suarez to contemplate suing Evra.

Stan Collymore tonight claimed that if the FA have given Suarez an 8 game ban then they must be sure he racially abused Evra. You'd swear that the FA dont consistently make botched decisions. It wont help the fight against racism if you start going down the route of punishing people without clear cut evidence. Whose to say Evra doesnt do this again? Also as KD pointed out why was there no charge brought against Evra when he apparently admitted to insulting Suarez. The FA = joke.

The fact that David Gill and Phil Gartside can have a prominent roles in the FA without every other PL club having representatives of equal standing surely can only be looked upon with raised eyebrows.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 21, 2011, 12:10:45 AM
The fact that David Gill and Phil Gartside can have a prominent roles in the FA without every other PL club having representatives of equal standing surely can only be looked upon with raised eyebrows.

That sums up the FA perfectly. No sitting member of any FA committee, no matter how trivial, should be allowed to have any current or past (within the last 24 months) association with ANY club.

An accusation in itself is not evidence. An accusation needs to be substantiated by something other than the accusation itself.

10 ten times yet all those cameras and pitchside microphones (and let's not forget this was a live match, not just one recorded to show highlights - so more cameras were there ) didn't pick it up, nor any of the other 20 players on the pitch, any officials, fans or members of the management/coaching staff of either team.

The FA have surpassed themselves now. They have become a parody of a parody of themselves.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 21, 2011, 12:18:38 AM
The FA statement clearly states an appeal is allowed so you can rest assured LFC will hire the best legal minds available.
Masch got himself sent off for gobbing off to the ref when his team-mates were trying to haul him away.

Rooney got hit with a 3 match ban for swearing into a TV camera a few months ago.
Missed that both live and on MoTD. None of the pundits mentioned it.

Ray, I wasn't on about that Rooney incident, but rather his 'normal behaviour' where he acts overly aggressively in both words and actions towards the referees.

Yes, Mascherano was having a go at the ref, but none more so than what is seen weekly throughout the country and no doubt also on that very same day.

It's no coincidence surely, that a player from our club gets made an example of to promote and 'reinforce' a recently started FA initiative from a live televised match against the Mancs.

What's happening with Terry's case? If it's 8 matches for Suarez under those circumstances ie no witnesses etc, then Terry deserves a season long ban. I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 21, 2011, 12:22:01 AM
At least now the FA or Taggart won't run the risk of the embarrassing scenario of us getting further in the CL than the Mancs next season.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 21, 2011, 12:22:45 AM
I actually cant believe it.

If the FA could categorical prove that Suarez racially abused Evra I would say 8 game ban fair enough. But like you say Dude the fact that its Evras word against Suarez and the fact that Evra has priors with regard to making unfounded racial abuse accusations makes this judgement farcical.

I really hope Liverpool go as far as possible with this and as you say Dude even for Suarez to contemplate suing Evra.

Stan Collymore tonight claimed that if the FA have given Suarez an 8 game ban then they must be sure he racially abused Evra. You'd swear that the FA dont consistently make botched decisions. It wont help the fight against racism if you start going down the route of punishing people without clear cut evidence. Whose to say Evra doesnt do this again? Also as KD pointed out why was there no charge brought against Evra when he apparently admitted to insulting Suarez. The FA = joke.

The fact that David Gill and Phil Gartside can have a prominent roles in the FA without every other PL club having representatives of equal standing surely can only be looked upon with raised eyebrows.

absolutely, Juan.

this decision, or indeed even the makeup of the FA committee, would never stand up in a court of law.  imho

the punishment is not only flawed, it is also possibly biased.

as well as taking this to the highest court (CAS), and going after Evra for slander,  I'd also contemplate advising Suarez to sue both the FA and FIFA for racism (and restraint of trade).  I'd also take this through the EU courts (the European Court of Justice).   As a mixed coloured player, Suarez should be entitled to get a fear hearing.  And he has quite patently not got a fair hearing.  imho

The klu klux klan days of biased hearings in Alabama should be a thing of the past.

If Suarez is not getting a fair hearing, then we need to confront the problem.   
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 21, 2011, 12:27:28 AM
What's happening with Terry's case? If it's 8 matches for Suarez under those circumstances ie no witnesses etc, then Terry deserves a season long ban. I won't hold my breath.

the one positive thing from today's debacle, is that the FA have now made a rod for their own back.

if it's 8 matches for Suarez, then we have to be looking at a far longer ban for Terry.....plus him being not only stripped of the England captaincy, but also thrown out of the team.   He can now not feasably be allowed to play at next summer's Euros.

the FA have scored a massive own goal today.  The repercussions will be wide-ranging and rumble on for a long time.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 21, 2011, 12:29:10 AM
Can the ban be extended for a failed appeal?

From: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/liverpool-vent-anger-at-suarezs-eightgame-ban-6279941.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/liverpool-vent-anger-at-suarezs-eightgame-ban-6279941.html)

"There is the possibility that the length of the ban could be increased by the appeals board."
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 21, 2011, 12:32:47 AM
the one positive thing from today's debacle, is that the FA have now made a rod for their own back.

if it's 8 matches for Suarez, then we have to be looking at a far longer ban for Terry.....plus him being not only stripped of the England captaincy, but also thrown out of the team.   He can now not feasably be allowed to play at next summer's Euros.

the FA have scored a massive own goal today.  The repercussions will be wide-ranging and rumble on for a long time.

Dude, apply the FA's recent actions in appealing the Rooney ban for what was clearly violent conduct (or at least would be under an FA sanctioned match) and ask yourself if they will treat 'JT', Ingurland's captain, the same way as they treated Luis.

 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 21, 2011, 12:40:45 AM
Dude, apply the FA's recent actions in appealing the Rooney ban for what was clearly violent conduct (or at least would be under an FA sanctioned match) and ask yourself if they will treat 'JT', Ingurland's captain, the same way as they treated Luis.

oh I know, Tes.

The FA have brought themselves into disrepute.

I see this issue rumbling on for a long time and if Liverpool had any guts, they would be taking this to the highest courts.

but as always we are far far too nice.  Nice guys get walked over.

It's 2011.  A mixed race player is entitled to a fair hearing.   If the FA are not prepared to give the lad a fair hearing, then this has to go higher. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 21, 2011, 12:44:21 AM
Re: Evra's abuse of Luis. Evra is French, so you to presume French is his first language. He has played for enough years in England and has shown in TV interviews that English is not a language he is unable to speak or that he speaks poorly.

He wasn't born in or has ever played in Spain, yet he made the insults not in his own language, or the language of the country both men earn their living in, but in Suarez's native language. You don't insult someone in their language, especially if it isn't your own unless you want them to know in no uncertain terms exactly what you are doing and saying to them, so they can be left in no doubt whatsoever and it personalises the insult even more my the fact that it was made specifically in their language and not your own or a 'neutral' language.

I guess the FA will conveniently overlook that fact though.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 21, 2011, 12:56:50 AM
Re: Evra's abuse of Luis. Evra is French, so you to presume French is his first language. He has played for enough years in England and has shown in TV interviews that English is not a language he is unable to speak or that he speaks poorly.

He wasn't born in or has ever played in Spain, yet he made the insults not in his own language, or the language of the country both men earn their living in, but in Suarez's native language. You don't insult someone in their language, especially if it isn't your own unless you want them to know in no uncertain terms exactly what you are doing and saying to them, so they can be left in no doubt whatsoever and it personalises the insult even more my the fact that it was made specifically in their language and not your own or a 'neutral' language.

I guess the FA will conveniently overlook that fact though.
i live in a spanish speaking country and the word negra (spelling?) is common here.    Hombre negra, is a term I hear all the time.  And i bet it is the same down in Uruguay. 

It is not a nasty term, merely a term  local people use to describe others of a different colour.

The same type of way Brits used to use it, years ago. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 21, 2011, 01:01:26 AM
hey folks, in future,  we gotta chat in skype or even better in oovoo (where we can all chat in a room)

http://www.skype.com (http://www.skype.com/)

http://www.oovoo.com/Download.aspx (http://www.oovoo.com/Download.aspx)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 21, 2011, 11:19:11 AM
Re: Evra's abuse of Luis. Evra is French, so you to presume French is his first language. He has played for enough years in England and has shown in TV interviews that English is not a language he is unable to speak or that he speaks poorly.

He wasn't born in or has ever played in Spain, yet he made the insults not in his own language, or the language of the country both men earn their living in, but in Suarez's native language. You don't insult someone in their language, especially if it isn't your own unless you want them to know in no uncertain terms exactly what you are doing and saying to them, so they can be left in no doubt whatsoever and it personalises the insult even more my the fact that it was made specifically in their language and not your own or a 'neutral' language.

I guess the FA will conveniently overlook that fact though.

Very true Tes.

So basically you are allowed to verbally abuse someone but as long as its not mistrued as being racial your are fine. This case stinks and to hear some of the commentary from different reputible sources is barmy. Ive read stuff to the extent, Suarez isnt a racist, its his word against Evras but Im glad to see the FA have finally come down hard on racism. What a load of rubbish. Thats effectively saying he may be innocent but someone needed to be punished to make a stand on racism.

Another point, if Suarez believed what he said was racist then surely he would never have admitted to the FA  that he used any such term. There were no witnesses so it actually took Suarez admitting he used a term to even bring a case against him. Why would Suarez admit to the FA that he used the term if he thought he could be charged with racism.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 21, 2011, 02:50:08 PM
Terry has been charged with racially abusing Anton Ferdinand.

In fairness Terry case is much different to Suarez for the simple fact that television cameras clearly show him mouthing a racial slur.

However whether or not Terry is cleared in a court of law surely if Suarez has received an 8 game ban Terry should be receiving something far more severe? But I cant see the FA allowing Terry to be banned for the European Championships.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 21, 2011, 03:13:40 PM
The report into the findings against Suarez will make interesting reading.

There was a sports lawyer on discussing the case. He said that from reading the FA statement most likely what happened was that Suarez was banned for 4 games for using

"insulting words towards Mr Evra during the match contrary to FA Rule E3(1)"

 and that was doubled because

"insulting words used by Mr Suarez included a reference to Mr Evra's colour within the meaning of Rule E3(2)".


So according to the FA's own rules above Evra should also be banned because he admitted to insulting Suarez in Spanish. The FA dont even follow their own precedent.

I hope LFC drag the absolute a*se out of this and take it as far as they possibly can.
 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 21, 2011, 03:29:51 PM
Just read a retweet from Phil McNulty.

"The Crown Prosecution Service say that the maximum punishment for John Terry if he's found guilty of this offence is a fine of £2500"

Is it possible the FA are sidestepping the issue of having to punish Terry because they know all he can receive is a petty fine if found guilty in court? It means no heavy ban and no missing England games. Why was Terrys case referred to the Crown Prosecution Service while Suarez's was not?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 21, 2011, 06:14:52 PM
there are a number of conclusions arising from this debacle.


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 21, 2011, 08:48:35 PM
Looks like same old same old. I get the feeling we'll drop points against mediocre opposition yet again. We need a goalscorer more than ever. It's incredible to see a team dominate so heavily yet failing to score. We were really good the first 25 then we dropped everything and to be honest I feel we're lucky to be level against Wigan after first half. That goes a million lightyears to sweep aside lady luck not being on our side - we're simply not good enough.

It's shocking to see us go from totally dominating the game to be completely disjointed and without ideas. Maybe Suarez suspension won't be that costly after all, we got so much bigger problems than that.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 21, 2011, 10:14:09 PM
Not good enough. There's no other way of putting it. Transitional phase = bollocks. Bad luck = bollocks. Injuries = bollocks. After spending nearly 100 m the last 12 months surely you'd expect more quality than this. But the harsh truth there's none to be found. Look at Adam, wasting the ball time and time again. Henderson is so anonymous we were effectively playing the game with a man down. Downing - predictable as the Swedish mid-winter weather. Maxi - never really cut it against poor oppostion and faded extremly in the second half. Beside the back 4 the only players to get away with some pride is Kuijt and Suarez.

Also, Kenny's the wrong man for this club. After 60 minutes it was written all over keeping the same tactics, formation and players on the pitch would see us drop points. What does he do? Nothing, of course. That's his main tactical move. Do nothing to try to change the run of play, do nothing to find new ways when the opponents close us down with increasing ease. After 6 games with Hodgson many LFC fans had it they had empirical evidence he wasn't fit to run a club this size. I don't think he was or is. But what is it in Kenny's managing the team that suggest the opposite? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

As I said at half time, I'd be fukcnig happy if missing out on Surez for a few games was the only thing that stood between us and a realistic shot at 4th. Again, we've got so much bigger troubles than that. One being having spent the bulk of our war chest on pure mediocrity.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 21, 2011, 11:23:49 PM
Martin, I find myself agreeing with some of your points. There is quality there but it's not consistent and that's the key. Being able to perform week in week out at a similar level.

Pepe and the defence were okay but than again they should be against a relegation side. Midfield was poor. Very little movement and passing to men stood still is so annoying.

Why didn't Kuyt take the pen? Surely he's senior to Adam? This is where we miss Gerrard as he would take them and rarely misses. We've missed 4 out of 5 pens this season and when Kenny was quizzed about that stat he just shrugged his shoulders. Hopefully he'll have something more positive to say to those responsible.

Don't see the point of subbing Suarez for Carroll with 4 mins left. Crazy decision. Carroll has to be given 90 mins against Blackburn on Boxing Day. And a few backsides need kicking after tonight. We didn't do the simple things well.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 22, 2011, 01:22:53 AM
Admittedly I didnt see the game so cant comment on how we played or who did what. That said it is a poor result. We have a very good away record this season and every team can expect to drop points away from home but we should still be beating the likes of Wigan.

I dont understand the comparisons to Roy and Kenny because the difference between the way the team played under Roy and the way they play under Kenny is light years apart.  Under Roy we were relegation fodder and chances were every decent player we had would have left. Under Kenny the players clearly enjoy the way we play and believe we are a club going places.

I find it hard to criticise Adams penalty because it wasnt a bad strike, keepers luck against us seems to be in this year.

Poor result, we are still 2 points off fourth. We need to see what quality we can add in January and we need to improve our consistency but questions over the managers position as well as condemning young players like Henderson are premature and irrational to say the least. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 22, 2011, 01:47:00 AM
Nice touch out of the LFC squad and Kenny with the t-shirts in support of Suarez.

Lets just hope we can get the ban overturned on appeal because I genuinely think Luis has been mugged by the FA.

Fergies response when asked about the situation wreaked of kissing the FA's a*s. Why wouldnt he when United have them in their pocket.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 22, 2011, 07:30:28 AM
I find it hard to criticise Adams penalty because it wasnt a bad strike, keepers luck against us seems to be in this year.

Surely you must be taking the p**s????? That was the worst taken peno I saw in at least 2-3 years. Adam did everything but point which corner he would hit it, and then pretty much hit it 1 meter inside the post. I took no luck or skill to "save" that peno, no more so than saving a pass from the back line, really.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 22, 2011, 07:36:16 AM
Why didn't Kuyt take the pen? Surely he's senior to Adam? This is where we miss Gerrard as he would take them and rarely misses. We've missed 4 out of 5 pens this season and when Kenny was quizzed about that stat he just shrugged his shoulders. Hopefully he'll have something more positive to say to those responsible.

Don't see the point of subbing Suarez for Carroll with 4 mins left. Crazy decision. Carroll has to be given 90 mins against Blackburn on Boxing Day. And a few backsides need kicking after tonight. We didn't do the simple things well.

Never trusted Adam for a penalty, and especially not in a game where he'd been a complete waste of space. Kuijt for me is numero uno even with Stevie in the side.

That's the question, isn't it? Why take the two performing players off? Smells like Rafa spirit, i.e., we're happy with a point away at Wigan.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 22, 2011, 11:20:16 AM
Surely you must be taking the p**s????? That was the worst taken peno I saw in at least 2-3 years. Adam did everything but point which corner he would hit it, and then pretty much hit it 1 meter inside the post. I took no luck or skill to "save" that peno, no more so than saving a pass from the back line, really.

Admittedly I didnt see the game and only saw a side angle replay of the penalty. From there it looked looked like a hard well taken kick, maybe at a height that made it easy for the keeper so if it was in fact alot poorer than that I stand corrected. I didnt have the benefit of seeing a replay from behind the penalty taker.

I can understand why Kuyt isnt taking the penalties. Hes clearly not first choice in the team these days so I suppose Kenny wants our penalty taker to be a mainstay player instead of chopping and changing takers depending whose on the pitch.  In theory it sounds fair but in practice it hasnt worked.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 22, 2011, 03:33:06 PM
Why didn't Kuyt take the pen? Surely he's senior to Adam?

We've said it on more than one occasion on here - if Dirk is on the pitch he takes the penalties. One miss in all the time he's been here and he's taken some very high pressure penalties, including two re-takes, both successfully converted, one of which was against Everton.

It cost us two points and a chance to close the gap right up on Arsenal and Chelsea. Spurs games in hand over us are racking up and if their form continues we could easily end up in at least a three horse race for fourth. At the moment I would be reluctant to bet on us in a donkey derby.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 22, 2011, 04:29:04 PM
i live in a spanish speaking country and the word negra (spelling?) is common here.    Hombre negra, is a term I hear all the time.  And i bet it is the same down in Uruguay. 

It is not a nasty term, merely a term  local people use to describe others of a different colour.

The same type of way Brits used to use it, years ago.

I'm glad you've heard it where you live , Dude, as this is my understanding of the context and it's meaning.

The FA panel, made up purely of white English men, have seen fit to judge a word from a foreign language, from a foreign culture, used in the context of that foreign language and culture and decided that they are more informed than an individual for whom that language is his natural tongue and the culture one that he is most familiar with and additionally have tried to jemmy it into the English language and culture and judge it on those terms. I've yet to read or heard about that word being able to be used in a racist context. Apparently, it's no insulting than 'mate' or 'pal' when used it a sarcastic or ironic context to someone who obviousy isn't a friend of any sort.

By over sensitising rascism they undermined all the genuine cases of rascism and instead of becoming shocking we will find it becomes almost commonplace that it will eventually lose it's stigma.

Yet again we've had to provide the poster boy for one of the FA's initiatives and their 'intent to enforce it'. Let's see how quickly the enforcement novelty wears off. Probably starting with John Terry, where the FA will hide behind the legal system as a way of avoiding handing out due punishment for an offence that took place during a match under their jurisdiction and for which any criminal censure should only be in addition, not instead off. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 22, 2011, 05:54:47 PM
Frustrating draw last night...

Feck it, we need Stevie G back, to give us that extra class and
winning mentality.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 22, 2011, 07:29:14 PM
In evidence for the defence, I offer you this well known bunch of racist thugs:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3QFOXPReec (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3QFOXPReec)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 22, 2011, 07:49:21 PM
I'm glad you've heard it where you live , Dude, as this is my understanding of the context and it's meaning.

The FA panel, made up purely of white English men, have seen fit to judge a word from a foreign language, from a foreign culture, used in the context of that foreign language and culture and decided that they are more informed than an individual for whom that language is his natural tongue and the culture one that he is most familiar with and additionally have tried to jemmy it into the English language and culture and judge it on those terms. I've yet to read or heard about that word being able to be used in a racist context. Apparently, it's no insulting than 'mate' or 'pal' when used it a sarcastic or ironic context to someone who obviousy isn't a friend of any sort.

By over sensitising rascism they undermined all the genuine cases of rascism and instead of becoming shocking we will find it becomes almost commonplace that it will eventually lose it's stigma.

Yet again we've had to provide the poster boy for one of the FA's initiatives and their 'intent to enforce it'. Let's see how quickly the enforcement novelty wears off. Probably starting with John Terry, where the FA will hide behind the legal system as a way of avoiding handing out due punishment for an offence that took place during a match under their jurisdiction and for which any criminal censure should only be in addition, not instead off.

spot on, in all the above points you make, Tes.

the three man FA committee comes across as pompous, ignorant and almost from another age.  I picture them as not dissimilar to the old style British government officials or ambassadors that oversaw and ruled across Britain's colonies, when it used to have an empire across the world.

we will need to see the final written decision making process, when it is released, on this judgement.

but I have to wonder whether the FA had proper translations of the term, and it's context, when used in south america.

my feeling is that they have simply gone, regardless of advice from translators or not, as judging that any use of the word black is a big NO NO.

But as you say, by over-sententising us to racism, the thing then becomes ridiculous and eventually irrelevant.   In the first world now, it is almost scary to use the word BLACK in any context outside one's own home.

The FA have potentially ruined this lad's career. 

And though he is yet to realise it yet, I suspect Evra has ruined his own career in England too.  I think he will be a marked man now - both from crowds and from other players and managers.  I would not be surprised to see him move this or next summer to a mainland Europe club.

But if I were the club and the players, I'd withdraw all my support and services to the FA.  Liverpool can withdraw any pleasantries/invites to FA officials to Anfield and Melwood.  The players can withdraw their services from England duty - both at full england level, but also at under 21 and youth level.     

The players could make a helluva stand, especially with this being a Euro championship summer.   Withdraw from all england squads for the rest of the season.  That will help focus minds at the FA.

Liverpool as a club are way way too nice these past 20 years.  This type of thing would never have got this far with John Smith or Peter Robinson in charge.

On a different tact.  The Terry thing has yet to come up and it is far more serious than the Suarez incident.  And also, the mockery and ridicule that the London media and others fire at people from the Liverpool area (put-downs of scousers and the stereotyping of them) now has to be addressed in a totally different light.  The bar is now set so low, re abuse, that Liverpool (who have been the victims of this vitriol for decades) have now got very good reason to play the victim and go after their abusers.

The FA have made a rod for their own back.  And I sure as hell would beat them with it.






Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 22, 2011, 08:06:05 PM
The most balanced and common sense statement I've seen in all this farce:

Viv Anderson, the first black player to represent England, admitted Suarez's case was a complicated one.

"If somebody said something that, in their culture, isn't as bad as we take it to be, you have to allow for that," he told BBC North West Tonight.


From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16291583.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16291583.stm)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 22, 2011, 08:24:43 PM
well said Viv Anderson.

and also on that BBC link, this is interesting from Kenny.

Suarez was given a rough ride by sections of the crowd inside the DW Stadium at times, angering Dalglish.
The Scot added: "It's all very well and good to tell players to control themselves, the FA better start controlling crowds."


This is exactly what I mean when I say that the FA have now made a rod for their own back.  They are going to have to start throwing large numbers of fans out of grounds, or close down stadiums (in the worst instances....say Milllwall)
Well, rub it up them.  I can think of no better an organisation, than the FA, to get hoisted upon their own petard.



Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 22, 2011, 08:51:58 PM
well said Viv Anderson.

and also on that BBC link, this is interesting from Kenny.

Suarez was given a rough ride by sections of the crowd inside the DW Stadium at times, angering Dalglish.
The Scot added: "It's all very well and good to tell players to control themselves, the FA better start controlling crowds."


This is exactly what I mean when I say that the FA have now made a rod for their own back.  They are going to have to start throwing large numbers of fans out of grounds, or close down stadiums (in the worst instances....say Milllwall)
Well, rub it up them.  I can think of no better an organisation, than the FA, to get hoisted upon their own petard.

They've tiptoed around coming out directly and saying that Luis used racist language, however the inference is there, the media have gone to town and painted it in big neon letters and Suarez is being labelled as something there is no proof of that he even remotely is.

Anyone else see this as the FA saying a big F.U to Blatter also? The grapes remain very sour at the FA.

Maybe Luis should have just kicked out at Evra Rooney-style. Then when we appealed they would have had to reduce the ban. Afterall, aren't they the rules?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 22, 2011, 09:16:54 PM
oh it's a big can of worms alright.

and there are other political vendettas in this (like you mention re Blatter).

but also, think abou tthe repercussions now, in another light.

not only would I recommend that our players refuse to represent england for the rest of this season.

i would also now suggest that when confronted with a nasty abusive crowd (like Suarez had to face when he have the finger to them at Fulham), that the team walks off the pitch.

Indeed, an entire team walking off, is something  I have long predicted would happen at some point.

well now we have the perfect excuse and the perfect environment.

we have a tinderbox environment, of (in many instances) over sensitivity.

When confronted with nasty crowds, as Suarez now has been condemned to in the future by the FA, Liverpool players should walk off the pitch.

The FA have set a standard.....let's all hold them to it.




Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 22, 2011, 11:12:08 PM
So this is how the table looks at Christmas. I think we are still well in there. We dropped alot of points that were there for the taking but if we can start converting some of the chances we are creating we will be there or there abouts for fourth.


                                     Played     Points
1Manchester City              17           44
2Manchester United          17           42
3Tottenham Hotspur          16           35
4Chelsea                         17           33
5Arsenal                          17           32
6Liverpool                        17           30
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 23, 2011, 12:08:16 AM
So this is how the table looks at Christmas. I think we are still well in there. We dropped alot of points that were there for the taking but if we can start converting some of the chances we are creating we will be there or there abouts for fourth.


                                     Played     Points
1Manchester City              17           44
2Manchester United          17           42
3Tottenham Hotspur          16           35
4Chelsea                         17           33
5Arsenal                          17           32
6Liverpool                        17           30

We're certainly in a three horse race for fourth, a four horse race for two spots if Spurs hit a patch of bad form.

We've certainly got the defensive foundations to build on, we need to start scoring the odd goal or two, starting with penalties. We still have too few genuine goal threats throughout the team. Adam probably won't repeat the scoring feats he enjoyed last season, Downing has been disappointing on that front and Dirk's not appeared on the scoresheet as often though limited chances in the team don't help either opportunity or the sort of continuity strikers/forwards tend to need to score on anything resembling a regular basis.

Skrtel has surpassed himself at both ends of the field this season - I am so enjoying being wrong about him. 
Agger's due a goal soon, Bellamy's weighed in with a creditworthy contribution considering his relatively limited amount of minutes on the pitch.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 23, 2011, 12:36:12 AM
we are exactly in the table where we deserve to be, and where I predicted we would be.

after spending 112 million quid this year, we have a fair bit of talent to call upon.

sadly, as much as I love Kenny, he is nowhere near good enough.....he is the weakest link.

when I watch our matches, I see an unbalanced side, with no ryhme or reason to our football...often seeing acres of space where players are out of position, or unsure of where they should be.

even simple issues, like who takes our penalties, seems beyond kenny's organisational abilities.

and given the relative quality of wenger, harry redknapp and even the lad at chelsea, I see kenny failing miserably.  His tactics are pretty non existent.  He is unable to make appropriate changes mid-game.

when with more money than everybody else, he has a chance for occasional success........but with less money than most competitors, he has no chance.




Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 23, 2011, 06:48:47 PM
we are exactly in the table where we deserve to be, and where I predicted we would be.

after spending 112 million quid this year, we have a fair bit of talent to call upon.

sadly, as much as I love Kenny, he is nowhere near good enough.....he is the weakest link.

when I watch our matches, I see an unbalanced side, with no ryhme or reason to our football...often seeing acres of space where players are out of position, or unsure of where they should be.

even simple issues, like who takes our penalties, seems beyond kenny's organisational abilities.

and given the relative quality of wenger, harry redknapp and even the lad at chelsea, I see kenny failing miserably.  His tactics are pretty non existent.  He is unable to make appropriate changes mid-game.

when with more money than everybody else, he has a chance for occasional success........but with less money than most competitors, he has no chance.

I know I may sound a tad repetitive but there's not one word I disagree with in that post, dude. Very well said.

I know I'l get the stick but I'm entertaining the thought of letting Ancelotti get a fair crack of the whip for a couple of years. At least the man knows what it takes to win titles and I'm confident he'd thrive at a much better run club than Chelsea.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 23, 2011, 07:50:03 PM
I know I may sound a tad repetitive but there's not one word I disagree with in that post, dude. Very well said.

I know I'l get the stick but I'm entertaining the thought of letting Ancelotti get a fair crack of the whip for a couple of years. At least the man knows what it takes to win titles and I'm confident he'd thrive at a much better run club than Chelsea.

It's strange that, Martin, Dude and I had this conversation once it became clear that Ancelotti would be released by the Russian megalomaniac.

Sturridge, tenth goal this season last night in 16 starts, plus 3 sub appearances. Better than 1 in 2. Makes it 18 in 30 total appearances for this calender year playing first team football for Bolton (on loan) and Chelsea.

How we could have done with / will be needing that sort of extra fire power.

Still can't get my head around what we did and didn't do with the Torres deal last January.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 23, 2011, 09:32:35 PM
yes funny you mention Ancelllotti, martin.....because Tes and me had this same discussion ages ago.

rafa is available, ancellotti is available, and several others.

the guy I have always wanted, martin oneill, is starting to perform miracles at sunderland (he always excels wherever he goes).

and we are stuck with friggen kenny. 

I have said it for years, til I am blue in the face.  Kenny should be our worldwide club ambassador.....like bobby charlton is at United.    We need to get a real boss in the dugout.
 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 23, 2011, 09:35:58 PM
There's a few of points I'd make:

In hindsight (and I said it at the time) selling Meireles was a mistake!
(I just feel he makes a difference to the fine lines that separate success
and failure, though, obviously, it's impossible to speculate how many
points that cost us)

Buying Enrique was a fantastic piece of business though!

To date, the purchase of Carroll hasn't paid off...YET! (He's 22 ffs!!)
Suarez, on the other hand, is an amazing talent!
The two of them account for the Torres money &
selling Torres for the money we did, was in hindsight
a no-brainer!

The purchase of Coates, looks very astute (too early
to judge though) & re-signing Bellamy as a squad player,
again was a good decision.

Adam, Downing & Henderson have all come in and made
contributions, though I hope the best is yet to come from
each of them.

Skrtel & Maxi have both improved under Dalglish, imo. Though
the sidelining and subsequent lack of goals (is it 17 LEAGUE
GAMES??) from Kuyt, seems strange.

To lose Gerrard & Lucas (because of a stupid fixture arrangement)
at the point of team development that we did has been very unfortunate.
To hit the post so many times and miss (how many?) penalties is above
normal.

We're 3 points off 4th, in the semi-final of the Carling cup
& the transfer window is due to open soon. So we have an
opportunity to address any weaknesses in the side (bearing
in mind, the Suarez, suspension).

I wouldn't say i was jumping for joy, but the manager's position
is not up for questioning, imo, 'til the end of the season. Besides,
it's a team, Clarke, Comolli & Dalglish and I presume they're
learning from their mistakes...If we don't get 4th, then questions
should be asked!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 23, 2011, 10:07:41 PM
It's strange that, Martin, Dude and I had this conversation once it became clear that Ancelotti would be released by the Russian megalomaniac.

Sturridge, tenth goal this season last night in 16 starts, plus 3 sub appearances. Better than 1 in 2. Makes it 18 in 30 total appearances for this calender year playing first team football for Bolton (on loan) and Chelsea.

How we could have done with / will be needing that sort of extra fire power.

Is so spot on. Though, extra power? Is there any power at all as it is? Please let me know. Funny you mention Sturridge because I kept thinking last nite when I watched the game how is it we always seems miss out on obvious talent? How hard was Parker to spot? Reo-Coker I still think would be a good acquisition. Adam Johnson, Englands finest left winger is rotting on the City bench while we're splashing an incredible 20 million on an extremly mediocre Henderson. The list goes on. As for Carrol, did they never make a qualified guess as to how the carrying of that price tag would effect the mind of a young and, it has to be said, inexperienced player? That's how limited statistical calculations really are when push comes to show. To me it was a given it would be like the rock of Gibraltar on his shoulders. I still think he has the objective features to come good, i.e., good ability in the air and able to use both his feet. But this is the problem, we buy for the future like we're expecting to field a team able to fight for 4th, let alone the title, for the coming years.

We need a manager who understand what his best team and formation is and dude, I never really thought Rafa did just that. His first seasons was very good but then it's like the Istanbul experience got to his head and his subsequently lost the plot. + he never really understood the PL, i.e., playing for a draw against a bottomhalf sides away may be good in Spain but will never be enough in Ingurland. Ancelotti has the experience, tactical astutness and pragmatism needed to get us back to the top again, IMHO. MON as much as like and respect the man was never tested in a big club and I think we need a manager to come in that has a proven track record at the highest level.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 23, 2011, 10:22:44 PM
There's a few of points I'd make:

In hindsight (and I said it at the time) selling Meireles was a mistake!
(I just feel he makes a difference to the fine lines that separate success
and failure, though, obviously, it's impossible to speculate how many
points that cost us)

Buying Enrique was a fantastic piece of business though!

To date, the purchase of Carroll hasn't paid off...YET! (He's 22 ffs!!)
Suarez, on the other hand, is an amazing talent!
The two of them account for the Torres money &
selling Torres for the money we did, was in hindsight
a no-brainer!

The purchase of Coates, looks very astute (too early
to judge though) & re-signing Bellamy as a squad player,
again was a good decision.

Adam, Downing & Henderson have all come in and made
contributions, though I hope the best is yet to come from
each of them.

Skrtel & Maxi have both improved under Dalglish, imo. Though
the sidelining and subsequent lack of goals (is it 17 LEAGUE
GAMES??) from Kuyt, seems strange.

To lose Gerrard & Lucas (because of a stupid fixture arrangement)
at the point of team development that we did has been very unfortunate.
To hit the post so many times and miss (how many?) penalties is above
normal.

We're 3 points off 4th, in the semi-final of the Carling cup
& the transfer window is due to open soon. So we have an
opportunity to address any weaknesses in the side (bearing
in mind, the Suarez, suspension).

I wouldn't say i was jumping for joy, but the manager's position
is not up for questioning, imo, 'til the end of the season. Besides,
it's a team, Clarke, Comolli & Dalglish and I presume they're
learning from their mistakes...If we don't get 4th, then questions
should be asked!

Ed, it's true we're not that far off 4th from a numerical point of view. But if we really were that good it would've been 1 point at the most. We knew either or both of Chelsea and Spurs would drop points following our game aganst Wigan. But we threw it away. In fact, we were shockingly bad the last 20 and we never really looked like we could get a winner. Of course we weren't helped by Kenny's decision to take one of our best performers off last 18 minutes. We'll drop points like we did against Wigan at least 10 more games and that will see us finish 6th at best. It's a combination of poor managing and lack of quality in key positions. But it is a crime against footy to play Henderson and Downing ahead of Kuijt. I'm sorry mate but your rose tinted look at life will only leave you disillusioned.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 23, 2011, 10:58:14 PM
We knew either or both of Chelsea and Spurs would drop points following our game aganst Wigan. But we threw it away.
Ok, Martin, I'll give you that point and it's a good and important one.

This mental weakness (after the peno), lack of clinical finishing (terrible peno)
and WINNING mentality (must score peno, to win!). Sure these are worrying
features of the game against Wigan. If someone wants to go back and analyse
are league performances this season, it may even be a recurring theme. It
could even be argued that it is one of the reasons that we haven't won the title
(or been close to it) for 20 years because we cannot consistently put these ideas
into practice over the course of a season (there are others though, finance,
mis-management of the club etc.)

Old (title-winning) LFC teams used to do these things on auto-pilot, second
nature to them.

However, we're not currently in the relegation zone (or out of the race for 4th)?
So my argument is that in spite of the adversity that we have faced this season
we are sitting 3 points off 4th and it can go either way. More of the same (finish
6th, but hey it was are unluckiest season ever!) or crack on get some silverware
and a Champions league position.

tbh, I'm satisfied with that. 4th and a trophy is fine at our current stage of development.
We can't be man City overnight & United is a well-oiled machine that has been running
non-stop for 20 years!

If we get neither though, I'm crossing over to your side of the fence. Redknapp is an
good average manager, Villas Boas is a complete newbie and Wenger cannot be
taken seriously any more, imo. So if we're outside 4th it's not good enough and the table
will not have lied come the start of May (unless it turns out aliens were secretly diverting
the ball onto the post as some sort of surreal joke).

In the meantime, I back the manager, coaches and team!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 26, 2011, 10:29:02 AM
Me too Ed mate, is, believe it or not, behind the manager and the players. It's just that if you'd asked med whether splashing out  +70 millions on Carrol, Downing and Henderson is good business or if I could see a better use of that money I know what I'd have said. That's where my disappointment lie. It's not about unrealistic expectations, it's about how people go about things at this club.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 26, 2011, 02:46:29 PM
Senn the teamsheet & bench...Very confident of a result!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 26, 2011, 03:52:32 PM
Stil confident knowing full well Kenny won't make a change before the 75th minute? Apalling really. Yet again we're good at making ourselves the laughing stock of the PL. No wil, no urge, no initiatives, no nothing. But there you go playing crap like Maxi and Henderson who contributes next to nothing. Also, Suarez needs to sort it out and start hitting goal. It's not just bad luck.

How this is better than us under Roy I don't know. Please Henry, act NOW!!!!!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 26, 2011, 05:00:58 PM
Again we manage to make a total embarrassment of ourselves at home. This time against rock bottom Blackburn. Way to ficking go Kenny playing the strolling Henderson yet again, well done Kenny keeping the useless Downing on for 90 minutes, well done keeping the I-can't-score-because-I'm-low-on-confidence Carrol. Well ficking done for keeping Kuijt on the bench throughout the game and only calling on Bellers when it was already too late. I never want to see you in the dugout again.

It's not that we'll miss out on 4th for the 3rd year running, it's the fact we're making a larf of ourselves. The lack of pride, the lack of urge, the lack of quality and the lack of initiative is apalling.

Thank God August is just 8 months away. Can't wait for the new season to start. Lets hope Henry et.al. realise what's happening. I could see it early on last season when we lost to Blackpool and WBA under Kenny. Seems those who said he's been out of the game for too long was bang on.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on December 26, 2011, 06:42:57 PM
Dire result...has to be said...bottom club to get a draw is pretty pathetic ...
we need to give our subs more time...how kuyt stays on the bench for the whole game is beyond me..
rafa was like clockwork...62 minute one would come on...all introduced within the next 15 minutes..
how can bellamy do anything in 10 minutes?...any player needs time to start to read the game..

desperately need a striker...carroll cannot be sold but that doesn't give him a god given right to play either...he may come good in a few years time...but John Henry isn't interested in that time scale...
if we're way off the pace for fourth at the end of the season, i don't think kenny will start next season tbh...these are business men and they'll want to see improvement...
some of kenny's buys are helping, some are hindering..time to bite the bullet and play our strongest team...

p.s. Where the hell are the younger players? Sosa et al?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 27, 2011, 02:05:05 AM
Yet again we dominated the game but didnt come away with the result.

There is clearly something fundamental wrong in the final third because up until that point I can see very little wrong with these performances.

Its clear we need a goalscorer to play up with Suarez because Suarez's contribution isnt necessarily always going to be goals.

Today I felt all of our players were too willing to take longshots. That is one area I think we need to improve. In recent months we have seen Adam go for glory when we have had players in better shooting positions and in a way i think that may be a small part of it, some players are trying to enhance their own careers by going for glory.

What I will say is that this team is not far from being a very good one. Maybe it will be a case of playing our best players like Bellamy every game, maybe (undoubtedly) we need to continue to strengthen but we are playing some good football, our defence is rock solid and we are creating chances.

This team is a work in progress and clearly Kenny is having difficulty in figuring out how to overcome teams at Anfield. That said fans that cant differentiate between the performances under Kennys Liverpool and the performances under Roys clearly dont watch very many of the games closely because they are worlds apart.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 27, 2011, 07:30:00 AM
This team is a work in progress and clearly Kenny is having difficulty in figuring out how to overcome teams at Anfield. That said fans that cant differentiate between the performances under Kennys Liverpool and the performances under Roys clearly dont watch very many of the games closely because they are worlds apart.

Awrite Juant, how long then are we gonna say this until it's OK to actually demand we beat newly promoted teams and teams in the relegation zone at home after having splashed out some 110 million? How long? Because these Tomkinsesque arguments aint promoting intellectual debate, really. Can we on the one hand call ourselves a great club, a top club, while, at the same time game after game drop points against "lesser" opposition? Me thinks not. Beating Blackburn at home shouldn't depend on the team being a work in progress or not. Any levelminded fan can see that. Any levelminded fan can see that our manager doesn't know his best XI and lack the tactical or organisational skills to change a game. THAT in combination with a terrible transfer strategy spell why we'll miss out on 4th.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 27, 2011, 09:45:05 AM
Awrite Juant, how long then are we gonna say this until it's OK to actually demand we beat newly promoted teams and teams in the relegation zone at home after having splashed out some 110 million? How long? Because these Tomkinsesque arguments aint promoting intellectual debate, really. Can we on the one hand call ourselves a great club, a top club, while, at the same time game after game drop points against "lesser" opposition? Me thinks not. Beating Blackburn at home shouldn't depend on the team being a work in progress or not. Any levelminded fan can see that. Any levelminded fan can see that our manager doesn't know his best XI and lack the tactical or organisational skills to change a game. THAT in combination with a terrible transfer strategy spell why we'll miss out on 4th.

I agree we should be beating teams like Blackburn, Norwich, Swansea home and away in the league but at the moment for a number of reasons we just cant stick the ball in the net. Thats not to say though that most of our performances havent deserved comfortable wins because they have. Individually certain players havent been at the races but collectively the footballs been pretty good in almost every match. Can you even admit that much?

You clearly want to see the back of Kenny now. But what happens if whatever manager you want to replace Kenny doesnt do any better, what happens if the football gets worse and we start to drop in the table? How long do you give the new man? How long do you continue that cycle of replacing the manager before you finally decide that we are going to have to give a manager time?

80 percent of what Im seeing at the moment on the pitch looks good although your negativity Martin makes me wonder whether you even watch. We play nice free flowing football, we are forming a solid defence, we are creating chances and dominating teams but we are just lacking the final killer touch. Id rather see us try to find that missing piece but I get the impression with you that no matter whose in charge if they are not rooted in the top 4 places within 6 months you will be calling for change again and again. Im glad John Henry has a long term vision for the club that wont change on a game by game basis.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 27, 2011, 10:04:48 AM
I agree we should be beating teams like Blackburn, Norwich, Swansea home and away in the league but at the moment for a number of reasons we just cant stick the ball in the net. Thats not to say though that most of our performances havent deserved comfortable wins because they have. Individually certain players havent been at the races but collectively the footballs been pretty good in almost every match. Can you even admit that much?

You clearly want to see the back of Kenny now. But what happens if whatever manager you want to replace Kenny doesnt do any better, what happens if the football gets worse and we start to drop in the table? How long do you give the new man? How long do you continue that cycle of replacing the manager before you finally decide that we are going to have to give a manager time?

80 percent of what Im seeing at the moment on the pitch looks good although your negativity Martin makes me wonder whether you even watch. We play nice free flowing football, we are forming a solid defence, we are creating chances and dominating teams but we are just lacking the final killer touch. Id rather see us try to find that missing piece but I get the impression with you that no matter whose in charge if they are not rooted in the top 4 places within 6 months you will be calling for change again and again. Im glad John Henry has a long term vision for the club that wont change on a game by game basis.

Belittling and simplyfying your opponents arguments doesn't suit you well, Juan. You can do better than that and you probably know it.

I never said we don't play good footy and I honestly don't understand what that has to do with anything? I really don't.  Also, we were dire yesterday and against Wigan post the opening 25.

You ask what happen if a new manager comes in. Shouldn't the question be, rather, what happens if we keep the current manager? No LFC manager has never, not even close, have such amount of money to spend inside a calender year so you'd expect more than draw after draw after draw after draw against bottom and newly promote sides at home. Look at first half yesterday or last 20 against Wigan, no urgency, no initiative, no will, no pride, nothing to suggest Kenny can get the lads to grind out a resut for him.

Why? Simply because the player are fed up with his poor team selection. I know I would be. Maybe his reluctance to change games until it's too late makes it hard for the players to do somthing out of the ordinary. Fickin Hend knows full well he can stroll around the park for 90 minutes contributing feck all resting in the fact he'll start the next game too at the expense of much better and more experienced players.

The table doesn't lie, we're no better than this. I'm absolutetly confident Ancelotti or Mourinho would have a much better chance of making us a top 4 side again. With Kenny there's no futubre, neither on the pitch or in financial books.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 27, 2011, 11:01:56 AM
Belittling and simplyfying your opponents arguments doesn't suit you well, Juan. You can do better than that and you probably know it.

I never said we don't play good footy and I honestly don't understand what that has to do with anything? I really don't.  Also, we were dire yesterday and against Wigan post the opening 25.

You ask what happen if a new manager comes in. Shouldn't the question be, rather, what happens if we keep the current manager? No LFC manager has never, not even close, have such amount of money to spend inside a calender year so you'd expect more than draw after draw after draw after draw against bottom and newly promote sides at home. Look at first half yesterday or last 20 against Wigan, no urgency, no initiative, no will, no pride, nothing to suggest Kenny can get the lads to grind out a resut for him.

Why? Simply because the player are fed up with his poor team selection. I know I would be. Maybe his reluctance to change games until it's too late makes it hard for the players to do somthing out of the ordinary. Fickin Hend knows full well he can stroll around the park for 90 minutes contributing feck all resting in the fact he'll start the next game too at the expense of much better and more experienced players.

The table doesn't lie, we're no better than this. I'm absolutetly confident Ancelotti or Mourinho would have a much better chance of making us a top 4 side again. With Kenny there's no futubre, neither on the pitch or in financial books.

Martin apologies if you feel I have tried to belittle your argument, thats not my intention. I just find it hard to understand your negativity towards the team. I can understand frustration at results like yesterday and I can understand questioning Kennys decision making but Im not sure how we have such differing views on the game. I admit we were poor in and around the box and it has to be more than a lack of luck involved but to say there was "no urgency, no will, no pride" for me is just an inaccurate view on things. Right from kick off in the second half we chased, harried, attacked in numbers but just just didnt create enough quality in the final third. At one point i even commented on how Suarez was running after the balls that had gone dead in order to get the game resumed as quickly as possible. I think we had a problem with decision making in and around the box. We shoot when we would be better passing and vice versa and we often tend to pick the wrong pass. That said we still had chances. Even in the last few seconds their keeper made a super save from Carroll and Agger had his effort cleared off the line. They are the slim margins between 1 and 3 points and at the moment we cant convert what we are creating.

I agree the table doesnt lie but where you see 6th place I see us being 3 points off 4th place, if Arsenal win potentially 4 off.

As for having no future under Kenny I think its too early to make that call. I agree his big money signings like Carroll, Downing and Henderson arent repaying the managers faith but Suarez, Adam, Enrique and Bellamy all look like very worthy additions. You can argue that Suarez isnt a Kenny signing but it happened during his reign so you have to give give him the benefit.

Im not sure why your worried about the financial side of things under Kenny. Aside from Ian Ayre doing fantastic work on the commercial side of things, Kennys summer clearout reduced the annual wage bill by millions. He also managed to bring in transfer fees for so many players that had no future at this club but who were still picking up big wages. In that effect he has managed to clean up some of the shoddy finances of regimes gone by in a very short period of time. Anyway I assume Comolli is the man who handles the transfer fee side of things, Kenny picks who he wants and Comolli sees how much he can buy them for.

I accept Carroll looks like crazy transfer business now but as Ed mentioned in a previous post to swap Carroll and Suarez for Torres means we came out of that transfer window better than we went into it.

I dont believe that Kennys without his faults. I think he still needs to prove himself with Comolli in the transfer market, I believe he still needs to show us that he can resolve our goal scoring issues and that hes capable of building a team that can be consistent home and away. The only way he can prove the above is if hes given the necessary time.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 27, 2011, 03:49:17 PM
Frustrating alright, clearly there is a solid foundation there,
a platform to build on and as Juan said it's the final third where
the problems are.

Still we saw yesterday, the answer for home games against
crap opposition i.e. Stevie G. Every time he got on the ball he
did something decisive and created an attacking chance. Had
he been there for 90, he also has the quality to step up and stick a
few. Still, i thought it was a mature performance from him, the way
he was involving all the other players in the moves (or, lol, maybe he's
just not 100%).

Sad fact is though, we labour against these weak opponents,
giving them way too much respect and then United come along
within a week and beat the same team 5-0 (Fulham, Wigan and
I'd bet my house, they'll do the same to Blackburn).

Anyway, Kenny's the gaffer, so it's up to him to find the solution in
the new year that secures us 4th. Simple as that really.

A bit of belief is what's required 'cos hope will get us nowhere but 6th.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 27, 2011, 06:37:38 PM
Whatever view any of us hold as to whether Dalglish should have been appointed permanently or not, I think most of us would agree that to change manager mid-season would not be the most sensible thing to do.
Having had such a large turnover of players in the Summer a season of stability, especially after the last few years, has to be paramount.

I think the board certainly needs a 'football' appointment to it as that is the most glaring omission at the moment.

I think we need to give 'everything' a season and then review it then. The addition of a striker in January, always supposing it's the correct one, should go some way to solving the goal scoring problem, and the addition of cover for Lucas to tighten things up further defensively wouldn't be a bad thing.

Players like Downing, who certainly has been disappointing overall, need to be worked with, as he in particular has shown more at previous clubs than he has done so far with us. He needs to work more on his composure and decision making when faced with a goal scoring opportunity.

Yes, it's going to be tough to make fourth (any higher is just wishful thinking), and we need to start matching or bettering Arsenal and Chelsea's results consistantly, between now and the end of the season. Lucky for us, both are still in the CL, and that could hopefully prove a distraction if they can both make it through the first knockout round. Spurs are going to need to collapse if they're to be pulled back into the race.

It's frustrating when you think a single goal would have been the difference maker in so many games and could have had us sitting nicely ahead of Arsenal and Chelsea and putting Spurs under huge pressure.

I think it would be unwise to think of a big clearout either now or in the Summer. The one thing Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea have over us is that their squads, and even more importantly their obvious first 11, have been together collectively longer than ours.

We need to hold our nerve until May and not let disappointments make us impatient and rash in what we are wanting.

I can't see the owners evening thinking about pulling any triggers until the end of the season, when everything will be viewed in it's entirety and within the context of individual events which have occurred throughout the whole season.

One thing is for certain though. Our next striker purchase needs to be better thought out than our last one, especially within the context of our style of play / or the direction in which we wih to develop our style of play.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 27, 2011, 07:26:07 PM
who's gonna sack, Kenny?

that's the crux of the matter.

come the summer, will our owners see the writing on the wall, or will they be taken in with the *rebuilding* and *need for patience* and *five year plan* yarns.

remember, this season there can't be the excuse of European football disrupting our season.

Kenny should be leaving in the summer.  But who's gonna have the b.alls to tell him.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 27, 2011, 08:02:35 PM
who's gonna sack, Kenny?

that's the crux of the matter.

come the summer, will our owners see the writing on the wall, or will they be taken in with the *rebuilding* and *need for patience* and *five year plan* yarns.

remember, this season there can't be the excuse of European football disrupting our season.

Kenny should be leaving in the summer.  But who's gonna have the b.alls to tell him.

Strangely, Dude, I don't have many fears on that. Whether Henry & Co know when to do it is one thing but I don't think they'd have a problem actually doing the deed. Thankfully, he's not David Moores.
Plus the fact that he's based in Boston always helps. This is where the lack of a 'football man' on the board is going to hold us back.
Who is the one with the knowlege to know when and then who to replace him with?
Arsenal wouldn't have known about someone like Wenger without the likes of Dein on the board.

Additionally, looking at the Suarez case, does anyone think Evra would have admitted anything to the press in his own country if the situation had been reversed? NO. Why? Because there's enough knowledge of the FA on the Manc board and they would have briefed him to 'keep it shut' whether he thought he was 'innocent' or not in his own mind. It may not have even got as far as the case being brought. An apology (whether meant or not) would have been issued and an indepth explaination of the uptight British institution's fear of colour would have been made. Our board/club should have known how to play the FA at it's own pompous, hypocritical little game. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 27, 2011, 08:44:49 PM
Strangely, Dude, I don't have many fears on that. Whether Henry & Co know when to do it is one thing but I don't think they'd have a problem actually doing the deed. Thankfully, he's not David Moores.
Plus the fact that he's based in Boston always helps. This is where the lack of a 'football man' on the board is going to hold us back.
Who is the one with the knowlege to know when and then who to replace him with?
Arsenal wouldn't have known about someone like Wenger without the likes of Dein on the board.

Additionally, looking at the Suarez case, does anyone think Evra would have admitted anything to the press in his own country if the situation had been reversed? NO. Why? Because there's enough knowledge of the FA on the Manc board and they would have briefed him to 'keep it shut' whether he thought he was 'innocent' or not in his own mind. It may not have even got as far as the case being brought. An apology (whether meant or not) would have been issued and an indepth explaination of the uptight British institution's fear of colour would have been made. Our board/club should have known how to play the FA at it's own pompous, hypocritical little game.

agreed, anyone with intelligence at Anfield, would have had a quiet word in Suarez's ear, and told him to keep his mouth shut.  With no other witnesses, you are home and dry.  Not that the word he used was racist.  But still, this whole debacle could have been avoided.  All Suarez had to be briefed, was to say "I have no specific recollection of the words used, but it definitely wasn't racist."

As for Kenny's position.  My view is that unless Kenny falls on his own sword, he will not be pushed in the summer.  I think our owners will fall back upon the patience excuse and "we're in this for the long-haul" etc. 

Though I wonder if they will be as keen to hand Kenny another 112 million quid next January.  Kenny's train may hit the buffers, when the yanks close their wallet.  Without massive money, Kenny has always been lost. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 27, 2011, 09:05:17 PM
Though I wonder if they will be as keen to hand Kenny another 112 million quid next January.  Kenny's train may hit the buffers, when the yanks close their wallet.  Without massive money, Kenny has always been lost.

That's a real worry but so could the flip side (like our transfers since Suarez, Bellamy and Enrique definately excepted, hopefully others can join that list).
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 27, 2011, 09:36:51 PM
That's a real worry but so could the flip side (like our transfers since Suarez, Bellamy and Enrique definately excepted, hopefully others can join that list).

yes, most of our best transfers have been frees.

I am actually not too concerned, beyond Carroll, about our transfer activity.  I think we have the makings of a decent side.  The problem is in the dugout.  Kenny is failing miserably at putting a balanced side together.  And as for tactics, the man is a rank amateur.

With Ancellotti, Benitez or O'Neill in charge, we would be at least plating as good football as Spurs.....and not far off the Manchester sides.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 27, 2011, 10:27:50 PM
*Puts his Devil suit on and dons and advocat's wig.

From another forum:

To be honest is this not a PR disaster?

Kenny is a walking PR disaster. It was pretty much always the case, but he got away with it early in his management career because he was invariably winning.

The other person who comes out of this fairly poorly is the owner. There are two ways he could have contained this PR nightmare, either step in himself early and take the path of least resistance - dampen down the bad news with an apology, it was all a cultural misunderstanding thing - and hardly anyone would even be talking about it now. Meanwhile you quietly appeal the length of the ban and the FA shortens it because you have shown penitence for the crime and are sending out the right signal.

If you do not want to get involved in this personally then you make sure you put in place a senior management structure at the club to handle it for you. A structure that has a strong communications head and a manager with strict instructions that any actions or comments he makes on this subject have to be signed off by the PR guy.

Dalglish is doing what he is doing undoubtedly to try and create a siege mentality and keep his team close in spirit and deed. But what is good for one part of a vast organisation like Liverpool is not necessarily good for the rest of it. The club's image and reputation is taking a battering because there are no senior people there who seem to have the power or remit to argue their own corners in the face of the scattershot approach of Dalglish.

I cannot imagine any one person would have this amount of scope within their job definitions to cause this much trouble at any of Henry's other sporting entities, I struggle to imagine why he permits this to happen at Liverpool.

Too much that seems to have happened at the club over the past year has been rather knee jerk, whether some of the ridiculous, panicky transfer deals or this sort of pandering to the baser instincts of the more rabid elements of the support. Good owners need to stand aloof from populist gestures, Henry seems to be far too acquiescent in the poor decision making made by the people he is trusting to run the club. I do not know if this is a competence issue or a currying favour one, either way I am worried.

The owner doesn't have the first clue of what he is doing when it comes to football. NESV bought Liverpool because someone told them they could buy one of the most widely supported sports franchises in the world for £200 million. They jumped at it. The glazers were looking for over 10 times as much for man utd. £200 million was cheap. There was however a couple of reasons as to why this storied franchise was available so cheaply.

The problem is that they don't know anything at all about football. They didn't realise what a mess Benitez had made of the club, with the assistance of H&G. they didn't know how incredibly shed most of the players were when they took over.

They didn't realise how much fornicating money these players were on. They didn't realise how badly structured the squad was, they didn't realise how long their contracts were. They were only dimly aware of how bad the clubs underlying financial position was, and how costs were exploding as income fell.

They had some lovely little plans for a transfer guru to scour Europe for top players at fantastic prices, with a coach at the cutting edge of management, using the most modern of methods to weld the team into a winning machine.

However, NESV didn't realise that all of their plans were going to be fucked straight out the window, because King Kenny wanted the job, and let it be known to the world at large through his mates who were all in the media and saying what a great manager he would be.

NESV looked at their fans in near open revolt against their manager, and saw they were chanting for the return of a man who hadn't had any real involvement in football since he disgraced himself at Celtic and Newcastle, and they just buckled.

Out went any notion of young coaches with inventive tactics, out went clever purchases, in came insanely expensive players of unproven top level pedigree, but proven behavioural problems, at galactico prices. All rational economic planning went out the window as they "overspent to show the fans that they were prepared to spend big." before scouring the North East for unbelievably bad value.

NESV have little or no leverage over Dalglish. If they sacked him tomorrow they could never set foot in their own stadium again and would have to sell the club. KK can do whatever he wants, and unfortunately, it appears that he only seems to be interested in pissing and shitting all over his own reputation.

Whether it be buying terrible players, or wasting obscene amounts of money, or making an unbelievably awful mess of handling this Suarez case, or even buying the crazy uncontrollable cad in the first place.

Suarez, Carroll, Downing and Henderson are enormous catastrophic club-crushing blunders. any other football manager who had made the catalogue of horrendous errors that Dalglish has made over the last 12 months would have been not only fired, but sued for the damage he's done to NESV's economic interests.

But ultimately there is nothing that they can do about it, other than wait until he realises that his best managerial days were under Thatcher, and hope that he forks off back to the 19th hole with the MOTD pundits, to tell off-colour stories about the good old days.

NESV can then look at their falling income, escalating costs, rising losses, and try and rebuild again, in the knowledge that Liverpool have officially replaced nNewcastle as the most criminally mismanaged club in england. Pretty soon Liverpool fans are going to start every season hoping for a good run at a Europa league spot, and if one of the CL clubs wins the League cup, maybe we'll get it.

I know many will be very angry at what I have written but it's the truth and we all know it.



*Tucks can opener back into inside pocket and awaits what everyone has to say.  ;D
 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 27, 2011, 10:54:20 PM
there is some truth in that article, Tes.

Though half-way through he started to lose me - when he says:   "The problem is that the (new owners) don't know anything at all about football. They didn't realise what a mess Benitez had made of the club, with the assistance of H&G."

Sorry, but what fecking mess does that author reckon that Rafa left?  Qualifying for the CL every season, two CL finals, and ran Utd close one season for the title....despite having relative peanuts to spend.

Rafa's*crime* was that he finished 7th that final season.....his luck ran out I guess in trying to juggle limited funds.  And Mr and Mrs Liverpool, briefing their mate at the News of the Turds, turned on him. 

There have been reports that Rafa lost half the dressing room.  I have a fair idea who the key folks were in, in that septic festering half.  And I'd have shipped them out of the club pronto.  Well truth be known, I;d have shipped them a lot earlier.

Rafa's removal was a political coup.  His plotters waited their moment and then sprung.  Despicable individuals.  Nothing good could ever come of it.  It most certainly was not done in the interests of Liverpool Football club.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 27, 2011, 11:07:39 PM
Suarez, Carroll, Downing and Henderson are enormous catastrophic club-crushing blunders.
C'mon, Tes, this type of opinion is just stupid. Sometimes in forums there's a tendency
for comment to go over and beyond what is recognisable as reality and that's a good
example of someone who appears to know nothing about Shankly, Paisley & LFC and
is just venting to hear the sound of their own voice (imo, the c**t probably supports
United.).

The relevant questions when it comes to Kenny are 1.) Can he get us 4th? 2.) can he get
us some domestic silverware? 3.) Can he deliver the title? 4.) Does he have what it takes to
battle wits tactically against the best in Europe.?

I think he can probably do the first 2, will have to wait 'til the end of the season before I
could judge number 3 and have my doubts about 4.

However, whatever, Kenny is from the old school, has lived and breathed the same air as
Paisley and is steeped in traditions of the club (not to mention the amount of trophies he
helped us win). So when some stupid ignorant f**k grossly disrespects him in such a manner
with wild accusations, I fall right in line behind Kenny and back him to the hilt. YNWA.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 27, 2011, 11:33:13 PM
C'mon, Tes, this type of opinion is just stupid.

Ed, you've lost me. The quote you appear to be attributing to me is not mine. Or were you just telling me exclusively what your opinion of it was?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 27, 2011, 11:47:55 PM
Just to clarify: The post was c & p'ed from another forum. It is NOT mine. I was interested to see what people's opinions were both of the content and also the style which is far more 'racy' than anything any of us post on here.

I should have made the above clearer.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 28, 2011, 12:08:46 AM
it was all Tes's doing.  All his words.  The plot was led by Martin.  He's the Guy Fawkes of the operation. 

Honest it was, Ray.  Honest it was.  Please don't cut me again with the angle-grinder. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 28, 2011, 12:12:47 AM
Ed, you've lost me. The quote you appear to be attributing to me is not mine. Or were you just telling me exclusively what your opinion of it was?
Heck no, you stated up front that it was from some other forum (and that you were quoting
it to stir up some debate). Besides, its not your style to go over the top with stuff like that.

What pissed me above about the quote was that it's completely ridiculous on 2 fronts:

1.) Mancini, had the brief to get 4th last season after spending somewhere in the region of
£150/£200 million & to his credit he delivered. This season they've cracked on and built on the
work from last season. It's fair and realistic. Similarly, if Kenny at the end of the season, after
a year and a half in the job and a fair amount of money spent, hasn't delivered 4th, it's right and
fair that questions are asked. Some people may argue that the Carling cup is enough (what club takes
that competition seriously?....Birmingham, maybe). But 4th is a vital strategic landmark in terms of
the short-term development of the club. So a review of the management set up would be necessary.

There are no excuses, my understanding is that United have a first 11 out injured at the moment.
But, it's not going to be easy, because Chelsea are certainly not going to hand over 4th (and will spend
whatever in January to secure it) and Spurs are a good bit ahead (and a big club like Arsenal in the mix).
Still, at a big club like ours, we don't expect it to be easy and given our history, the whole ethos is geared toward triumphing in adversity. Kenny knows better than anyone that he has to match those Standards.

At the moment there is a problem with results and it's up to the management, Clarke, Comolli & Kenny
to address that. No problem! (that's what they're paid for).

2.) The other point is, I don't have any problem with anyone grumbling about the manager (Dude and Martin
do it all the time). But nobody ever forgets that we are LFC and stick together. Kenny has earned the right
to be respected and I think that article was out of order and way off the mark attempting to lecture a
football man like Kenny about anything. FFS, Kenny knows what's expected at our club better than anyone.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 28, 2011, 12:21:13 AM
my understanding is that United have a first 11 out injured at the moment.

and yet they still can blow gooseberries in our face, Ed.

despite having to play their second string outfit, with loads of injuries, and also played til Xmas in the CL games.....and yet they are still miles ahead of Kenny.

Fergie always could build teams.  And he could get performances from lads through sheer force of his presence.  When paint had to be burnt off walls, Fergie never missed.

I can't picture Kenny giving out too much hairdryer treatment.  His approach is more like that of Wilson in Dad's Army.  Along the lines of - 'Would You mind awfully'
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 28, 2011, 12:26:37 AM
Heck no, you stated up front that it was from some other forum (and that you were quoting
it to stir up some debate). Besides, its not your style to go over the top with stuff like that.

What pissed me above about the quote was that it's completely ridiculous on 2 fronts:

1.) Mancini, had the brief to get 4th last season after spending somewhere in the region of
£150/£200 million & to his credit he delivered. This season they've cracked on and built on the
work from last season. It's fair and realistic. Similarly, if Kenny at the end of the season, after
a year and a half in the job and a fair amount of money spent, hasn't delivered 4th, it's right and
fair that questions are asked. Some people may argue that the Carling cup is enough (what club takes
that competition seriously?....Birmingham, maybe). But 4th is a vital strategic landmark in terms of
the short-term development of the club. So a review of the management set up would be necessary.

There are no excuses, my understanding is that United have a first 11 out injured at the moment.
But, it's not going to be easy, because Chelsea are certainly not going to hand over 4th (and will spend
whatever in January to secure it) and Spurs are a good bit ahead (and a big club like Arsenal in the mix).
Still, at a big club like ours, we don't expect it to be easy and given our history, the whole ethos is geared toward triumphing in adversity. Kenny knows better than anyone that he has to match those Standards.

At the moment there is a problem with results and it's up to the management, Clarke, Comolli & Kenny
to address that. No problem! (that's what they're paid for).

2.) The other point is, I don't have any problem with anyone grumbling about the manager (Dude and Martin
do it all the time). But nobody ever forgets that we are LFC and stick together. Kenny has earned the right
to be respected and I think that article was out of order and way off the mark attempting to lecture a
football man like Kenny about anything. FFS, Kenny knows what's expected at our club better than anyone.

Gotcha, Ed.

It just sort of rambles inanely, building to a crescendo of pure bile.

It's one of the things that sets us apart from other forums (small, but perfectly formed as we are), is that we can express opinions without either being personally insulting to the player/member of coaching staff, and that we back our opinions up with reasons for holding them.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 28, 2011, 12:29:47 AM
it was all Tes's doing.  All his words.  The plot was led by Martin.  He's the Guy Fawkes of the operation. 

Honest it was, Ray.  Honest it was.  Please don't cut me again with the angle-grinder.

 :D Grins whilst pulling the cord on the chain saw. Damn, I've told Leatherface about cleaning it after he's used it.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 28, 2011, 12:36:39 AM
 ;D


anyroads,  what happens if we miss out on 4th come May time?

does Kenny get his P45, or will our owners chicken out cite that he needs more time?

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 28, 2011, 12:36:53 AM
and yet they still can blow gooseberries in our face, Ed.
LOL, I know, but it's a well-oiled machine that's been running for 25 of more years!

I agree with most of your points. Who are we kidding? Rafa, a modern manager, would have
sorted out the whole Torres thing, spent the money wisely and taken Fergie on.

With Kenny, we're seeing the beginning of something, whether there's a happy ending to it,
we'll have to wait 'til the end of the season, imo, to find out. He's been presented now with an
interesting situation in the middle of the season and it's up to him (and the supporters and team)
to find solutions to the problems we have at the moment (Management). But he worked miracles
in the second half of last season (with limited playing resources), so i give him the benefit of the
doubt and won't question his appointment 'til then. I'm not the sentimental type though, it's a results
business.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 28, 2011, 12:44:21 AM
Gotcha, Ed.

It's one of the things that sets us apart from other forums (small, but perfectly formed as we are), is that we can express opinions without either being personally insulting to the player/member of coaching staff, and that we back our opinions up with reasons for holding them.

Agreed! :D

anyroads,  what happens if we miss out on 4th come May time?

does Kenny get his P45, or will our owners chicken out cite that he needs more time?
It's a toss up between Rafa and Guardiola, imo, unless there is a clear path to success under Kenny. :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 28, 2011, 01:02:59 AM
But he worked miracles
in the second half of last season (with limited playing resources), so i give him the benefit of the
doubt and won't question his appointment 'til then. I'm not the sentimental type though, it's a results
business.

So does it come down to players selection in the transfer market?

What we don't know is how much input and influence Comolli had/has on previous purchases and who from any shortlisted targets we actually pursue.

It's doubtful that there'll be another £100M warchest in the Summer, but will funds be available in January and what sort of funds will be available in the Summer and will they be enough to fund a reasonable improvement to the squad?

Although we'll lose Suarez for 8 games (the break may actually do him good) I just hope any striker signed is judged by his ability to play with Suarez, not to replace him for 8 games and we study more closely a player's injury record and certainly steer clear of buying any players with a current injury.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 28, 2011, 01:21:40 AM
Quite a balanced piece for a journalist considering it's about us:


KENNY DALGLISH LOOKS TO CLASS OF ’89 FOR A REAL LIFT

Wednesday 28th December 2011  By Paul Joyce



KENNY DALGLISH has been here before.


There was a time, even during Liverpool’s era of dominance, when they could not win at home and Anfield resembled anything but a fortress. When the ‘goals for’ column made depressing reading and the club went into a Boxing Day game in sixth place in the top flight.

The Liverpool of Luis Suarez, Charlie Adam, Stewart Downing, and Andy Carroll have learned to live with such toils. But this was the fabled class of 1988-89 when even the likes of John Aldridge, Ian Rush, Peter Beardsley, John Barnes and Ray Houghton struggled to meet the weight of expectation.

Dalglish, manager then as he is now, must have fretted at what the future might hold, only for the new year in 1989 to bring new hope.

Liverpool started rattling in the goals for fun, with 43 scored in the next 20 matches.

They beat Everton in the FA Cup final at Wembley in what was regarded as the Hillsborough final and finished runners-up in the league to Arsenal – although back then second was still regarded as failure.

It is a turnaround that might explain Dalglish’s philosophical approach to the frittering away of precious points this season – the line that opposition goalkeepers are the bane of his life, repeated once again after Blackburn became the sixth side to leave Anfield with a point this season. Yet while the manager may think things can turn as they did in 1988-89, times have changed.

Carroll does not look like he will morph into Aldridge, or Downing into Barnes.

“Goalscoring has been the problem all year,” said Barnes . “They’ve been creating enough chances but they haven’t got an out-and-out goalscorer.

“Luis Suarez is a fantastic player, he scores goals, he comes short, he goes wide, but what they are missing is a real penalty-box player.


“They have to get a classic centre-forward, a No9 who is going to be a six-yard-box player and they need to get one of really proven quality.”

Statistics reveal Liverpool have the lowest conversion rate of any Premier League club, taking just 8.20 per cent of their chances, and have scored fewer goals than Bolton or Blackburn. Manchester United’s conversion rate is 20.89 and Manchester City’s 20.87. And it is not just Liverpool’s strikers who are profligate.

Adam has scored just twice – one a penalty – and Jordan Henderson once in the league, while Downing has still to open his account.

Dirk Kuyt, last season’s leading marksman, has not scored in the top flight, although he will argue that he cannot find the back of the net if he is kicking his heels on the sidelines.

Suarez remains a scorer of great goals, rather than a great goalscorer. Carroll has barely put a foot right since his arrival at Anfield a year ago.

The gilt-edged opportunities he spurned against Blackburn, allowing goalkeeper Mark Bunn to take the plaudits when really he should have been fetching the ball from the back of his net, marked another frustrating outing for him in red.

Carroll scored 19 goals in the Championship in 2009-10 and 11 for Newcastle the following season before his move to Liverpool. But as well as being hideously over-priced at £35million, Dalglish’s capture of him has been ill-conceived.

His statuesque style of play does not fit in with Liverpool’s attempts to pass and move. The nagging suspicion is that, at 23, he is too old to change his ways.

“We are getting a lot of chances, but I don’t know what is happening. We’ve got top players like Luis, Stevie, Stewart Downing. I thought Andy was amazing.” said Jose Enrique, who played with Carroll at Newcastle.

“He had three good chances to score, but it was the same for him as everyone.

“Nobody pays £35m for a player for nothing and Andy is a great player. He is value. When he starts to score one goal, he will score many goals.”

It was like that 23 years ago. The worry is that history will not repeat itself.


http://www.express.co.uk/football/view/292239/Kenny-Dalglish-looks-to-class-of-89-for-a-real-lift (http://www.express.co.uk/football/view/292239/Kenny-Dalglish-looks-to-class-of-89-for-a-real-lift)

I think the bit in bold is probably the crux of the issue.

Having a player in the Andy Carroll mould requires you to play a certain way. That way is at odds with the style that Dalglish appears to be attempting to implement.

So what came first? The Carroll signing or the choosen style of play. Or did the way we played at the end of last season, pre-dominantly without Carroll, change Dalglish's mind as to the way forward?
Does the signing of Stewart Downing provide a clue to the answer or just pose another question?

Or is he trying to amalgamate two styles, which is why the team and pattern of play appears a bit imbalanced and rather disjointed sometimes.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 28, 2011, 01:29:07 AM
The Kop aren't singing as their 'Sweet Carroll-nine' stays out of tune

27th December 2011 By Dominic King


The Kop wastes little time composing songs for new heroes.

The moment a player starts to quicken the pulse with thrilling performances, or a new signing arrives amid a blaze of publicity, the wordsmiths get to work.

So when Andy Carroll received ownership of one of Liverpool's most fabled jerseys, following his headline-grabbing £35million move from Newcastle, the new No 9 was bound to be the subject of a new ode.

It went like this: 'Sweet Carroll-nine! Oh-oh-oh! Scoring never looked so good! Goals all the time! Oh-oh-oh! Just like Kenny said he would!'

But, much like Carroll's career on Merseyside, the chant has yet to take off.

   Unlike the Depeche Mode track Just Can't Get Enough, which has been tinkered for Luis Suarez, the Neil Diamond-inspired verse rarely, if ever, gets an airing.

Another frustrating afternoon - this time in the 1-1 home draw against Blackburn - has led to more questions.
Is Carroll's style compatible with Liverpool's preferred pass and move? Is he a suitable partner for Suarez? Will he chip in with 15 goals a season? Can he ever justify that huge fee?

At the moment, Carroll gives the impression that the stage on which he finds himself is too much, too soon.
His play suggested he was in a muddle, often finding himself in the wrong position or on the periphery.

Liverpool needed a goal, but the striker's movement betrayed him.

He has the stature and physique to bulldoze defenders, but failed to impose himself and was often out-manoeuvred.

In the rare moments when things fell into place, Blackburn keeper Mark Bunn was impossible to pass, meaning Carroll's vital statistics now read five goals in 28 appearances.
As a result, Kenny Dalglish is again dealing with questions about how to revive his fortunes.

The Liverpool manager can be prickly when pressed on Carroll but, though his protection of the 22-year-old is admirable, even Dalglish will recognise the time is approaching when the man he refers to as 'Big Yin' has to deliver.
'If he gets an opportunity, I am sure he will take it with two hands,' Dalglish said.
'It takes a bit of time for everyone to get acquainted with each other but we are happy with the progress we have made so far.'

Significantly, he retains the faith of his team-mates, too. Jose Enrique, who played alongside Carroll for Newcastle, is adamant all that is required is a bit of luck.

'Nobody pays £35m for a player for nothing and Andy is a great player,' Enrique argued.

'He is value. When he scores one goal, he will score many.
'The most important thing for him (against Blackburn) was that he had the opportunity (to play) again.'

Indeed, the most consecutive starts Carroll has made for Liverpool is five and it could be that he is yet to recover fully from the two serious injuries he sustained in the past year - it is 12 months to the day since he ruptured his thigh playing for Newcastle at Tottenham.

There is no doubt Carroll has the tools to come good at Anfield - when he first joined in training in March, he made a positive impression with his new team-mates - yet, for the moment, he finds himself the butt of a wisecrack sweeping Merseyside via text message.

'Breaking news,' it reads. 'The FA have handed Andy Carroll an eight-game run in the Liverpool first team. The club are set to appeal.' **

A cheap shot, perhaps. But only when he starts scoring will the Kop start singing.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2079144/The-Kop-arent-singing-Sweet-Carroll-stays-tune.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2079144/The-Kop-arent-singing-Sweet-Carroll-stays-tune.html)

**Funny, though a bit a harsh.

Interestingly the clash of styles is mentioned again.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 28, 2011, 01:34:58 AM
We need to hold our nerve until May and not let disappointments make us impatient and rash in what we are wanting.

I can't see the owners evening thinking about pulling any triggers until the end of the season, when everything will be viewed in it's entirety and within the context of individual events which have occurred throughout the whole season.

First off, I'd like to extend my great thanks for that article on Kenny. That's probably the best written piece I've read in a very very long time, I also happen to agre with virtually everything the author say. Thanks for posting it, it is appreciated. Btw, what do you mean by "racy". Sorry my Swenglish vocabulary doesn't carry that.

As for your post and having patience I think it's sound and what will happen. What will also happen is that during the final quarter of the season, when we're hopelessly trailing 4th, we will start win games as we always do when we're out of it. This will then constitute proof Kenny's the man to lead us to glory, just look at 80-something when we wer x points behind y after z games and the pope just had his dog shot... You know the drill. In the end we'll end up wasting another year and another couple of 10's of millions pushing us further towards the brink. I'm not saying sacking him right now is the right move, but rather he should be held against what he managed to give us, not what the team managed to display in 10 pointless games.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 28, 2011, 01:35:51 AM
From: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2079122/Kenny-Dalglish-tries-cure-Liverpools-poor-home-form.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2079122/Kenny-Dalglish-tries-cure-Liverpools-poor-home-form.html)

A short-cut back to the top of the table was never going to be possible and it should be remembered that seven players - not to mention Dalglish and his assistants Steve Clarke and Kevin Keen - were elsewhere on January 1 this year.


It's an interesting point, concisely made.

What's happening to the standard of journalism lately? Have they exhausted all their bile on the Luis Suarez issue? Or has Kenny been sending out brown paper Christmas cards?  ;)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 28, 2011, 01:57:26 AM
What will also happen is that during the final quarter of the season, when we're hopelessly trailing 4th, we will start win games as we always do when we're out of it.

I guess it depends when or if the upturn happens and it should be looked at in the context of the whole season and if there's reasons for that other than 'the pressure is off'.
It's as pointless coming with a late run that's too late, as it is bursting out of the starting blocks but flagging and fading well before the end.

Maybe the January window will give us an idea of where the owners' thoughts are at the present on the situation we find ourselves in. Or maybe it will provide us with a spark that sees a run that isn't too late and sees us pinch 4th right at the death in game 38.

We're still in the League Cup and maybe getting past City could kick start our season.

I just think we need to judge the season in it's entirety at the end and until then, keep the faith, though not blindly. We were never going to be able to build a squad strong enough to deal with the loss of what are still key players in Gerrard, Lucas and Suarez in a couple of windows and carry on without a degree of difficulty.

I think if Dalglish is considering any more British players he needs to consider not just the advantage of them being used to the Premier League but that the adjustment needed to play for a big club may need to be regarded as a bigger factor than them supposedly being comfortable with the different style the Premier League serves up.
Carroll, Downing, Henderson and Adam have either shown signs or are showing signs of that adjustment being a bigger one than would initially appear to have been factored in, IMHO.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 28, 2011, 03:06:23 PM
Always interesting to hear any of the old greats take on the situation;

http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/273557/20111228/hansen-praises-long-term-planning-liverpool-project.htm

Liverpool legend Alan Hansen has praised the club's transfer policy under Kenny Dalglish suggesting their lavish investment in youthful talent will prove a shrewd business model in the future.

Liverpool have spent in excess of £100 million since the Fenway Sports Group took control of the club and although the likes of Jordan Henderson and Andy Carroll are yet to prove money well spent, the aforementioned former Anfield stalwart claims the long-term planning currently being engineered at the club will ultimately prove successful.

While keen to point out Liverpool's inability to compete on a financial level with Manchester City, Hansen suggests his former club are endeavouring to look more long term in order to re-establish the Reds in the higher echelons of English football.

Although Liverpool currently trail the two Manchester clubs in the Premier League title race, the aforementioned Match of the Day pundit believes the improvement at Anfield is already vast and only likely to continue to improve.


"Critical to the improvement has been Liverpool's transfer policy which has seen several young players with huge potential brought in, predominantly from other Premier League club," said Hansen in LFC magazine this week.

"There is no way that we, or any other club for that matter, can compete with Manchester City as far as transfer fees go.

"That leaves Liverpool with a question to answer. Do you sign what's left of the bigger named established players, or do you try and build a new team around youth?

"Liverpool have done the latter and that policy of buying younger players will, I believe, ultimately reap rewards and dividends, hopefully sooner rather than later."

Although the likes of Jordan Henderson and Andy Carroll have inevitably been brought to Liverpool with the future in mind, Hansen suggests Suarez's seamless transition at Anfield suggests the Uruguayan can be a mainstay now and for many years to come.

"Luis Suarez is a prime example of a player who has been an instant hit," Hansen told the latest issue of LFC magazine.

His performances, almost every single time he plays, have been sensational. He's got such quick feet that every time he gets the ball the anticipation levels amongst Liverpool fans rise. He's been fantastic to watch in 2011."
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 28, 2011, 06:21:05 PM
Hansen is a puppet.  He has never had an original thought in his life, and even if he did have one, he would never be brave enough to say it, and thus potentially prove controversial.

I'd rather watch paint dry than listen to the smug muppet.

How the likes of Hansen, Lawrenson and Shearer can be employed as expert pundits, has always confused me.   My dog spoke more sense.

It's no great surprise that the three of them never made it in football management.


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 28, 2011, 06:59:30 PM
Suarez banned AGAIN! Liverpool bad boy punished over finger at Fulham fans

28th December 2011


Luis Suarez has been banned again after picking up a one-match suspension for his finger gesture at Fulham fans.
The striker, who has already been banned for EIGHT matches for racially abusing Patrice Evra, gave the bird to home fans at Craven Cottage earlier this month.

The Reds have also been fined £20,000 for failing to control their players in the fiery clash at Craven Cottage.

Suarez will now miss Friday's match at home to Newcastle, with Andy Carroll now expected to face his old club.
It is the first time manager Kenny Dalglish has been unable to select Suarez since the player arrived from Ajax for £22.8million in January.

An FA statement read: 'Liverpool Football Club have been fined £20,000 by The FA and warned as to their future conduct for failing to ensure their players conducted themselves in an orderly fashion during the league fixture at Fulham on 5 December 2011.

'The club admitted the charge, which was in relation to the dismissal of Jay Spearing, but did not accept the standard £20,000 penalty for the offence. However, at an Independent Regulatory Commission hearing today [Wednesday 28 December] the fine was imposed.

'Meanwhile, Liverpool player Luis Suarez will begin a one match suspension with immediate effect after he admitted an FA charge of improper conduct in relation to the same game.

'Suarez was also fined £20,000 and warned as to his future conduct following a gesture he made towards the Fulham fans at the end of the fixture.'
Liverpool said they had no comment to make on either Suarez's ban or the imposition of a fine on the club.

Suarez was given a torrid time by the home support throughout the 1-0 defeat in west London on December 5 as he was subjected to chants of 'cheat' for what Fulham supporters perceived to be his constant diving.

He cracked after the final whistle by making an explicit hand gesture towards the stands.
However, in the days after the game Dalglish was so incensed by some of the treatment the 24-year-old was subjected to by Fulham players he used his pre-match press conference to show a DVD of incidents he felt supported his claims.
He also argued against the Jay Spearing dismissal, when the midfielder won the ball but his follow-through caught Mousa Dembele, which prompted the protest to Friend by a number of his players.

Last week, Suarez was given an eight-match ban for racially abusing Manchester United’s Evra.

An FA statement said the 24-year-old Uruguay striker had used words that ‘included a reference to Mr Evra’s colour’ when United and Liverpool met at Anfield on October 15, which amounts to a serious breach of the governing body’s rules.

After having spent a further four days considering evidence from last week’s disciplinary hearing, the three-man Independent Regulatory Commission also fined Suarez £40,000.
Liverpool, whose players and manager Kenny Dalglish wore T-shirts supporting Suarez in the warm-up to their match at Wigan, are set to appeal the eight-game ban once they have assessed the commission's detailed report.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2079381/Luis-Suarez-banned-finger-Fulham-fans.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2079381/Luis-Suarez-banned-finger-Fulham-fans.html)

Quelle surprise. Ashley Cole and darling Wazza get away without punishment yet 'Johnny Foreigner' gets banned.

Time to step up to to mark now, Mr Carroll.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 28, 2011, 07:19:23 PM
the FA are bringing the game into disrepute.

they should ban themselves.

the course of action to take here is quite clear.   Rather than crack under the abuse and make hand gestures,  Liverpool's complete team should walk off the pitch. 

Until the FA are willing to provide proper working conditions, teams should stop and refuse to play.

In the months (and years) to come, Suarez is going to take a lot of abuse at away grounds.  Liverpool have to make a stand.  Has there ever been a greater, more appropriate time, when one of our own should not walk alone.  Let's all walk off.



Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 28, 2011, 07:32:48 PM
........and still no publication of the reasons for the verdict. Somewhere I doubt Captain Braveheart Terry will suffer in the same way.


.........and in other news, Ancelotti has joined PSG.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 28, 2011, 07:47:04 PM
........and still no publication of the reasons for the verdict.

.........and in other news, Ancelotti has joined PSG.

the reasons behind the verdict, didn't someone find them, last week, amongst next March's Russian Presidential results.

sad to miss out on Ancelotti.  Though I doubt our yankee owners will be much aware of the development or it's significance.  As you said the other day Tes, we are badly crying out for a senior figure like david dein.  (I added the david dein part)

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 28, 2011, 07:56:02 PM
the reasons behind the verdict, didn't someone find them, last week, amongst next March's Russian Presidential results.

 :D   :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on December 29, 2011, 07:12:46 PM
Hmmm it seems we're being linked with Bent in january now...would send you the link...but can't fecking find it now! Gah!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on December 29, 2011, 07:38:17 PM
Not sure about Bent though...never really showed much flair and while he can score goals that's what they said about Carroll...we don't want two of them!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 29, 2011, 08:12:50 PM
Not sure about Bent though...never really showed much flair and while he can score goals that's what they said about Carroll...we don't want two of them!

And in that statement lies how difficult it can be finding a proven striker who can blend in seamlessly with your system and start knocking them in. And woe betide you if you choose unwisely.

I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger making the attack on Steve Kean seem like a Sunday afternoon tea party

Apologies to Quentin Tarantino. :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 29, 2011, 08:58:39 PM
And in that statement lies how difficult it can be finding a proven striker who can blend in seamlessly with your system and start knocking them in. And woe betide you if you choose unwisely.

I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger making the attack on Steve Kean seem like a Sunday afternoon tea party

Apologies to Quentin Tarantino. :D

Ray, you realise what you've done. After their certain capitulation against the Mancs we'll have Steve Kean come out and tell us Mr Tarantino has even been on his mobile giving him his support, as, coincidentally, has Mr Ferguson.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 29, 2011, 09:07:05 PM
LOL, here's Woy after the Wolves defeat, a year ago:
(Apologies to fans, who would rather forget the RH era!)

Some context first!
"As the curtain came down on a third defeat in four league games for
the Reds, leaving them 12th in the table and three points above the
relegation zone, thousands of supporters chanted the name of former
manager Kenny Dalglish."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/9326948.stm

Cringe!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 29, 2011, 09:10:29 PM
Not sure about Bent though...never really showed much flair and while he can score goals that's what they said about Carroll...we don't want two of them!

Nothing wrong with either player in a system that suits their strengths.

Newcastle set up and played a totally different style of football. One which brought out the best of their main players, Carroll, Barton and Nolan.

With Carroll, either it's a case of right player, wrong system or wrong player, right system.

This is what makes his purchase feel like an ill thought out panic buy.

Additionally, no matter how much money a club is offered, a player needs to be equally receptive to the transfer taking place.
It made too much sense to Newcastle to turn it down, but who was there listening to or acting on what Andy Carroll really wanted?
There was obviously huge pressure from Newcastle for the deal to go through but where was Carroll's agent in this, if not too busy thinking of his commission, when Carroll needed some representation to get his feelings across that whilst it made sense to Newcastle in financial terms, it didn't make sense to Carroll in ways that went far beyond simple football or financial ones.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 29, 2011, 09:12:18 PM
LOL, here's Woy after the Wolves defeat, a year ago:
(Apologies to fans, who would rather forget the RH era!)

Some context first!
"As the curtain came down on a third defeat in four league games for
the Reds, leaving them 12th in the table and three points above the
relegation zone, thousands of supporters chanted the name of former
manager Kenny Dalglish."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/9326948.stm

Cringe!

Ed, do you also pick at scabs and not let them heal in their own time?  :D  :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 29, 2011, 10:12:41 PM
Ed, do you also pick at scabs and not let them heal in their own time?  :D  :D
Yes, I actually do!  :D

Anyway, I've put Roy's record for the beginning of last season 'til his departure
against Kenny's this season so far, both in the league, below:

It's the 9 losses in the league vs. 3 for Kenny that stands out (1 being the calamity at Spurs!).

My conclusion is that we need to turn the 6 home draws into wins! (Obvious!!)
These 12 dropped points would have us 2 behind the leaders. Even
if we'd won 4 of them, we'd still be in contention. When you think back
to all those super saves by keepers...

Hodgson
D - H
L - A
W - H
D - A
L - A
D - H
L - H
L - A
W - H
W - A
W - H
D - A
L - A
W - H
L - A
W - H
L - A
L - H
W - H
L - A

Dalglish
D - H
W - A
W - H
L - A
L - A
W - H
W - A
D - H
D - H
W - A
D - H
W - A
D - H
L - A
W - H
W - A
D - A
D - H
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 29, 2011, 11:06:46 PM
Yes, I actually do!  :D

Anyway, I've put Roy's record for the beginning of last season 'til his departure
against Kenny's this season so far, both in the league, below:

It's the 9 losses in the league vs. 3 for Kenny that stands out (1 being the calamity at Spurs!).

My conclusion is that we need to turn the 6 home draws into wins! (Obvious!!)
These 12 dropped points would have us 2 behind the leaders. Even
if we'd won 4 of them, we'd still be in contention. When you think back
to all those super saves by keepers...

Hodgson
D - H
L - A
W - H
D - A
L - A
D - H
L - H
L - A
W - H
W - A
W - H
D - A
L - A
W - H
L - A
W - H
L - A
L - H
W - H
L - A

Dalglish
D - H
W - A
W - H
L - A
L - A
W - H
W - A
D - H
D - H
W - A
D - H
W - A
D - H
L - A
W - H
W - A
D - A
D - H

Ignoring the fees paid, with the overall level of players purchased in the last 12 months, I guess the difference is illustrated well by those figures, but the league table probably raises questions about the value we've had from the outlay. There's no doubt the overall squad is still short of several players, especially when you look at our rivals' squads and the fact they have been together longer en masse.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 29, 2011, 11:36:08 PM
Ray, you realise what you've done. After their certain capitulation against the Mancs we'll have Steve Kean come out and tell us Mr Tarantino has even been on his mobile giving him his support, as, coincidentally, has Mr Ferguson.  :D
:) Tes, the Blackburn fans should be ashamed of themselves for their treatment of Steve Kean. Their anger should be directed to the Venky's but rather conveniently they're 6000 miles away.

I would hope that Kenny has also given him some support. Quinten is otherwise occupied I believe.  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 29, 2011, 11:43:01 PM
:) Tes, the Blackburn fans should be ashamed of themselves for their treatment of Steve Kean. Their anger should be directed to the Venky's but rather conveniently they're 6000 miles away.

Totally agree. He has been put in an impossible situation by the owners trying to make some sort of big initial splash. Maybe if Fat Sham had been given the same amount of time, patience and support things would be different.

Now I feel dirty for supporting Fat Sham. Must be the quality of his faux twitter account that's making me soft.   
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 30, 2011, 12:43:40 AM
Yes, I actually do!  :D

Anyway, I've put Roy's record for the beginning of last season 'til his departure
against Kenny's this season so far, both in the league, below:

It's the 9 losses in the league vs. 3 for Kenny that stands out (1 being the calamity at Spurs!).

My conclusion is that we need to turn the 6 home draws into wins! (Obvious!!)
These 12 dropped points would have us 2 behind the leaders. Even
if we'd won 4 of them, we'd still be in contention. When you think back
to all those super saves by keepers...

Hodgson
D - H
L - A
W - H
D - A
L - A
D - H
L - H
L - A
W - H
W - A
W - H
D - A
L - A
W - H
L - A
W - H
L - A
L - H
W - H
L - A

Dalglish
D - H
W - A
W - H
L - A
L - A
W - H
W - A
D - H
D - H
W - A
D - H
W - A
D - H
L - A
W - H
W - A
D - A
D - H

When you think about it also Ed when we dropped points under Roy we generally never looked like getting a result. Under Kenny with the exception of Spurs we have dominated most games. I dont mean to keep banging the same drum but thats why I dont understand why some fans try to make out Kennys reign to be as unfavorable as Roys. Aside from the football played being completely different, Kenny has the team winning away from home. At home we are dominating teams and have been unlucky not to have at least 4 more home wins on the board. We could never say that under Roy, we were always directionless aside from a couple of decent home wins.

Every ex Liverpool player I have heard have all heaped praise on Kenny and reckon this team is very close to being a very good one. From Phil Thompson to John Aldridge, from Ray Houghton to Tommy Smith, Ronnie Whelan, Rush, Nicol, Lawrenson, Souness, Barnes and of late Hansen. They all believe Kenny is doing a very good job. I would take some of those ex players opinions with a pinch of salt, some wouldnt be willing to criticise an old team mate but they all seem to be singing from the same hymnsheet with regard the good work thats been done.

Mistakes are always going to be made and you cant expect Kenny to get every decision right. So aside from possibly making a mistake in signing Carroll and not being able to turn 6 home draws into what would have been deserved wins Im not sure what else fans could have wanted from Kenny. It borders on the unrealistic.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 30, 2011, 02:19:20 PM
When you think about it also Ed when we dropped points under Roy we generally never looked like getting a result. Under Kenny with the exception of Spurs we have dominated most games. I dont mean to keep banging the same drum but thats why I dont understand why some fans try to make out Kennys reign to be as unfavorable as Roys. Aside from the football played being completely different, Kenny has the team winning away from home. At home we are dominating teams and have been unlucky not to have at least 4 more home wins on the board. We could never say that under Roy, we were always directionless aside from a couple of decent home wins.

Every ex Liverpool player I have heard have all heaped praise on Kenny and reckon this team is very close to being a very good one. From Phil Thompson to John Aldridge, from Ray Houghton to Tommy Smith, Ronnie Whelan, Rush, Nicol, Lawrenson, Souness, Barnes and of late Hansen. They all believe Kenny is doing a very good job. I would take some of those ex players opinions with a pinch of salt, some wouldnt be willing to criticise an old team mate but they all seem to be singing from the same hymnsheet with regard the good work thats been done.

Mistakes are always going to be made and you cant expect Kenny to get every decision right. So aside from possibly making a mistake in signing Carroll and not being able to turn 6 home draws into what would have been deserved wins Im not sure what else fans could have wanted from Kenny. It borders on the unrealistic.

Your inclination to forgive, forget and accept mediocrity is almost ... touching.  Happy new year mate!  :)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on December 30, 2011, 03:13:00 PM
When we hammered the Toon 5 - 1 at Christmas 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0H6WRH6iKA
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 30, 2011, 03:15:36 PM
Your inclination to forgive, forget and accept mediocrity is almost ... touching.  Happy new year mate!  :)

I look forward to large portions of humble pie being dished out in the future. We will see who will be looking to forgive and forget then. Many Happy Returns  ;)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on December 30, 2011, 07:00:03 PM
Team lineup

Reina, Johnson, Enrique, Skrtel, Agger, Adam, Henderson, Spearing, Downing, Carroll, Bellamy.

SUBS: Doni, Maxi, Kuyt, Gerrard, Carragher, Shelvey, Kelly.

Prediction 1 nil to Liverpool - Bellamy to score
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 30, 2011, 07:12:58 PM
As if losing Suarez wasn't enough. With that line-up we'll be happy to get a point, though I doubt it. Way to go Kenny, way to go. You really hate to see us in Europe next year, don't you? Just admit.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 30, 2011, 07:24:58 PM
Hate to admit I'll watch the game later. So won't be here to respond to the claims I'm not real fan for calling it as it is. But hey, we're playing well, aren't we?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 07:41:12 PM
Team lineup

Reina, Johnson, Enrique, Skrtel, Agger, Adam, Henderson, Spearing, Downing, Carroll, Bellamy.

SUBS: Doni, Maxi, Kuyt, Gerrard, Carragher, Shelvey, Kelly.

Prediction 1 nil to Liverpool - Bellamy to score

What's Dirk done to deserve the splinters routine again? Dirk, Maxi, Bellamy is the closest we've got to the Dirk, Suarez, Maxi front three that did so well at the end of last season.

It'll be interesting to see if Henderson plays deeper alongside Spearing and let Adam play with more freedom further forward or if Henderson is favoured for a more advanced role.

I guess Maxi now only seems able to start one game a week, which is shame.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 07:46:01 PM
Hopefully Tim Kruhl has an off night, though he's got the ability to give us another Anfield keeper nightmare.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 07:59:35 PM
Superb bit of hold up play by Carroll. Adam needs to up his game. Too much of his passing is sloppy and going astray.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 08:02:26 PM
Carroll on his heels when Bellamy provides a great knock down. He needs to learn to gamble, anticipate or simply make a move as a ball is played forward, even if it's not immediately going towards him.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 08:15:26 PM
Agger, OG 0-1.  :(
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 08:19:13 PM
Bellamy!!!!  Goal!!!  Adam knocks the ball in, off the defender, out to Bellamy, who buries it.

Carroll needs to get himself in the box earlier, as particularly Enrique is putting in some decent balls.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 08:37:11 PM
Half time 1-1. The game's there for the taking, if we want it.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 09:09:25 PM
Gerrard on, didn't see who for as I'd jumped in the bath (and most of the water jumped out).  :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 09:12:32 PM
Great ball over the top to Carroll, heavy first touch straight through to the keeper. At least he made the run and got on the end of it.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 09:16:28 PM
Bellamy!!!! Direct, bent free kick. Put straight between the keeper and defender who got in eachother's way. Credit to Gerrard for walking away from the free kick and letting Craig take it.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 09:18:55 PM
Skrtel clears a great angled shot off the line, SOMEHOW!!! Brilliant, brilliant piece of defending. Ba is looking dangerous. Just goes to show class doesn't always have to be overpriced.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 09:20:59 PM
Great whipped in cross to Carroll, crashes his header off the crossbar. Good position taken up and attacked it well. Maybe, just maybe a run in the team is what he needs.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 09:23:14 PM
Kuyt on. Scored in his last three games against Newcastle. Now's your chance to silence the critics, Dirk. Bellamy off with a cut to the head after an elbow from Coloccini. Difficult to tell whether it was really deliberate.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 09:25:25 PM
Gerrard!!!! Played in left side of the area by Henderson, who'd received a great pass from Spearing. Left footed, across the keeper.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 09:27:16 PM
Some of Henderson's passing has been sublime tonight. Charlie Adam, take note.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 09:35:16 PM
Great run by Enrique, cross brilliantly cut out by defender otherwise Carroll would have had a tap in.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 09:37:18 PM
Henderson is looking better and better. Amazing what a bit of confidence can do.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 09:37:56 PM
4 mins of added time. Time for one more.  ;)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 09:41:09 PM
Carroll charges down ball over the top against the keeper. Downing skies it from 25 yards out.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 09:44:35 PM
Decent win. Better second half from Carroll. Excellent displays from Henderson, Enrique and Skrtel, who dealt superbly with the lively, in-form Ba.

Atmosphere quite disappointing apart from the immediate aftermath of the goals, as you'd expect and few sporadic bursts.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 30, 2011, 09:50:08 PM
Great commentary Tes considering you were lying in the bath!

What a difference Gerrard makes. Great to have him back. I don't feel so nervous about losing Suarez for 8 games now.

Carroll should have had a couple but at least he had a better game than for a while. Need Kuyt more and I suspect he'll be there for the City game.

Arsenal to draw or lose at QPR tomorrow and we stay 5th.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 10:06:12 PM
Great commentary Tes considering you were lying in the bath!

That's a rather disturbing mental image, Ray, so close to bedtime aswell.  ???
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 30, 2011, 11:38:31 PM
Great commentary Tes considering you were lying in the bath!

What a difference Gerrard makes. Great to have him back. I don't feel so nervous about losing Suarez for 8 games now.

Carroll should have had a couple but at least he had a better game than for a while. Need Kuyt more and I suspect he'll be there for the City game.

Arsenal to draw or lose at QPR tomorrow and we stay 5th.

Gerrard's delivery was a difference maker. At least Carroll was getting himself in better positions.

I'd switch Downing onto the left and play Kuyt from the off.

Adam was disappointing again, Henderson showed him the way today and Jay Spearing always gets his head up and looks to play the ball forward. Considering his inexperience, I thought Spearing played well again. Keeps his discipline well. Maybe doesn't have the anticipation or game reading ability of Lucas but he's still learning the position as he's always played as a more traditional central midfielder for the reserves.

Glenn Johnson doesn't look awfully happy and lost his composure when in dangerous, advanced areas a couple of time. I wouldn't be surprised to see him on his way in the Summer. There's something not right there.   

Enrique looks more and more comfortable defensively, especially when compared to his Newcastle days. He's quickly becoming an indispensable player for us.

The sub £10M signings have all been a success. It's when the big money's lashed that Kenny looks less that convincing. Let's hope he doesn't add Bent to the list.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 31, 2011, 01:47:20 AM
I'll hold my hands up and admit I got this one wrong. I thought it was a very good team display throughout most of the game. I don't agree however, tes, on your judgment on Adam, Spearing and Henderson. I actually thought Adam was our best midfielder by far until Gerrard came on. Spearing I can see where you come from, but he's also totally reckless and he need to cool down and stop running around like a headless chicken. Henderson played a fringe role, again, offering nothing save for that quite easy pass that set up Gerrard.

I actually thought Carrol built on his game against Blackburn which wasn't that bad either. It's easy to see he's slowly adapting to our style of play and with a wee bit more concentration he'd scored 2 tonite.

Leaving Kuijt and Maxi out of it to play Spearing and Henderson will cost us many points in the long run. Today, Kenny got off the hook thanks to Simpson suffering a severe stroke and the genius and brilliance of our captain.

Finally, I'd suggest we have, by far, the two best full backs in the PL. What a joy that is to see and how much it adds to our game.

Well done and hope we can build on this on Tuesday.

Reina

Johnson
Skrtel
Agger
Enrique

Kuijt
Gerrard
Adam
Maxi

Bellers
Carrol

That should do the trick. :)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 31, 2011, 04:43:24 PM
Tes, You're the only person who has mentioned Johnson not looking happy. None of the press reports mention it. It would greatly surprise me were he to leave. I think he's played really well and is part of an excellent defence.

Not sure about Adam. Some poor passes but then supplied the cross that lead to the equaliser. Some ling-distance shots were poor. He needs to think about his distribution more.

Spearing is never going to be a top quality midfielder but he tries his best which is all you can ask. The FA should look at the foul against him last night. It was a bad one.

Henderson shows glimpses of his talent but will be a better player in 12 months. Gerrard is like signing a £30M player. Huge boost for the team. That could transform our season. Skrtel should get a special mention for preventing that equaliser. Fantastic piece of skill.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 31, 2011, 05:07:50 PM
Spearing is never going to be a top quality midfielder but he tries his best which is all you can ask. The FA should look at the foul against him last night. It was a bad one.

A different day, a different ref, a different interpretation. The rules need firming up to a degree that eliminates the need for individual refs to apply anywhere near as much interpretation. Whether they can be, I don't know, but surely something needs attempting.

Agree with both you and Martin about Spearing's level. He'll only ever be a squad player but he can be relied on to give his all and despite Lucas' absence he knows he's still got to earn the right to wear the shirt the next game. He's still learning that defensive midfield role but as he gets more experience hopefully he'll not need to race about like he presently does as experience will allow him to read the game better and position himself accordingly. Economy of effort whilst increasing effectiveness, ala Xabi and Didi (though obviously not at their level). Also, he's played so few games alongside Adam / Henderson, that he's probably still a little unsure as to his exact role within the partnership.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on December 31, 2011, 05:35:54 PM
Good points Tes. He's obviously trying to impress and should be praised for working too hard if anything. If only youngsters could have the experience of older ones.

Kenny has a dilemma for Tuesday. Is it too much to ask him to patrol midfield against City's obvious quality? I think so. A quiet word or two will help assuming he's okay after that challenge. And if Gerrard  does start (which I think he will) he will act as a calming influence.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 31, 2011, 05:53:10 PM
Good points Tes. He's obviously trying to impress and should be praised for working too hard if anything. If only youngsters could have the experience of older ones.

Kenny has a dilemma for Tuesday. Is it too much to ask him to patrol midfield against City's obvious quality? I think so. A quiet word or two will help assuming he's okay after that challenge. And if Gerrard  does start (which I think he will) he will act as a calming influence.

Tuesday's probably the biggest game of the season so far as it will give us a good idea of where we are in terms of development of the team. Lucas will be a big miss and whoever plays in midfield will need to make sure they are switched on at all times and that possession isn't given away cheaply. I think Gerrard will start and then have a sub's role for the following game or two.
City's defence hasn't looked as good lately, so hopefully that's a chink in their armour we can take advantage of. Carroll's overdue a goal and all runs, good or bad, end eventually.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on December 31, 2011, 09:24:38 PM
very good victory.

the game revolved on a short two minute spell.

Bellamy's freekick that put us two-one up.....calamity defending from the newcastle keeper and defender.  And Carroll was in there, typically missing with his attempt at a little head flick.    Anyways, a goal.  And then within a minute or two, Skitrail clears a superb newcastle effort off our line.  The entire game hinged on that passage of play. 

After going ahead, 2-1, we then could pass the ball around confidently and make the victory look more convincing than it probably really was.

Balance-wise, we are still all over the shop.  Hendesron showing signs of coming good (like i have often predicted).  Gerrard always loves this type of stage.......great angled goal, through the keeper's legs.  We badly miss Lucas.  Adam is a good lad, but from what I have seen to date, he just doesn;t do enough work in the middle of the park.  I had hoped he would be a Paul Scholes for us.  But it's more of a Danny Murphy lite.   Carroll continues as usual, hitting the bar when it might have been easier to score.  He hits more wood than woody woodpecker.  No prizes though for the nearly men. 

Team looks united.  Defends as one and attacks as one.  Balance is required though, especially against top teams.    No signs of any decent balance emerging.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on December 31, 2011, 11:25:18 PM
I still don't get this Adam criticism. Yesterday he won possession time and again, he sprayed the ball nicely and he was just a couple of metres behind Carrol and Bellars in attack only to have outran Spearing and Henderson to work his back home. What signs did Henderson really show, dude? Really? He keeps passing it sideways and backwards and it has a detrimental effect on our game, to say the least. He spent the entire game in a fringe roll, yet you say he showed signs. Please enlighten me cause I couldn't see them. You're completely right the game was decided during those two minutes and the reason for that is Kenny once again chosed to start with Spearing and the not good enough Henderson at the expense of Kuijt and Maxi. He got off this once but will get heavily punished come Tuesday should he try the same trick again.

Thanks to results going our way very much today we actually have a chance of finishing 4th. That chance will be taken away will he keep playing such an inbalanced and weak starting line-up.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on December 31, 2011, 11:55:45 PM
Martin, what would your ideal midfield line-up be against City and ideally for the rest of the season?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 01, 2012, 12:56:54 AM
the dude is on skype.

sooner or later ye all will succumb to the grand notion of chatting via audio to each other.

it doesnae give you cancer or arthritis.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 01, 2012, 12:59:34 AM
I am off to get supper.

I may be some time (well about 90 mins)
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 01, 2012, 01:01:42 AM
and lest i forget - happy new fear year to you all.

still another 4 hours of 2011 left here.


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 01, 2012, 12:44:31 PM
Martin, what would your ideal midfield line-up be against City and ideally for the rest of the season?

As it seems Kenny's deploying an "attack's the best defence" sort of approach I think we need a central midfield that combines physical presence with skills on the ball. Therefore I'll never accept us playing a 5-men midfield as I see that as an inherently defensive formation.

Against City I'd start with Gerrard behind Bellers and Carrol. I'd also play Adam, not in a withdrawn position but behind Gerrard. To the left I'd play Maxi and to the right I'd play Kuijt. I'm not saying that midfield would be ideal for the rest of the season but certainly on Tuesday. The key is to keep the 4-4-2 formation as it allows us to keep the team higher up the pitch than a 4-5-1 formation ever will. I'd go as far as to say that to a certain exten choice of formation will be more critical than choice of players this Tuesday. That is, I can live with Downing starting ahead of Maxi as long as we keep it 4-4-2 if you catch my drift?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 01, 2012, 03:43:31 PM
As it seems Kenny's deploying an "attack's the best defence" sort of approach I think we need a central midfield that combines physical presence with skills on the ball. Therefore I'll never accept us playing a 5-men midfield as I see that as an inherently defensive formation.

Against City I'd start with Gerrard behind Bellers and Carrol. I'd also play Adam, not in a withdrawn position but behind Gerrard. To the left I'd play Maxi and to the right I'd play Kuijt. I'm not saying that midfield would be ideal for the rest of the season but certainly on Tuesday. The key is to keep the 4-4-2 formation as it allows us to keep the team higher up the pitch than a 4-5-1 formation ever will. I'd go as far as to say that to a certain exten choice of formation will be more critical than choice of players this Tuesday. That is, I can live with Downing starting ahead of Maxi as long as we keep it 4-4-2 if you catch my drift?

Thanks for that Martin. Do you think that gives us enough in midfield though to keep City's midfield at bay and impose ourselves on them and have enough of the ball to do that?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 01, 2012, 06:04:24 PM
Thanks for that Martin. Do you think that gives us enough in midfield though to keep City's midfield at bay and impose ourselves on them and have enough of the ball to do that?

Yes I do, tes. Haven't it struck you the few times this seson the opponents dominated possession we always looked vulnerable (pretty much as we did under Rafa's last seasons where goals could come from anywhere)? I maintain the reason we conceded so few this season is we've strived and managed to dominate possession. The key to this is our fullbacks and the quality they possess in the attacking side of the game. Beside YaYa Toure I'm not impressed at all by City's midfield. You could argue that Silva's a midfielder but he's more or less played in a free role. I think playing Adam and Gerrard in the center and having the guts to play Enrique and Johnson quite far up the pitch will neutralize them quite a lot in that they can't pack it in the center. In any case, a 4-5-1 formation is doomed to invite pressure which we'll struggle to cope with for very long I reckon + Carrol will be isolated up front. Our chance to win this game, IMHO, is to attack and keep the team high up the pitch. With Enrique and Johnson constantly in an attacking position City will be spread out thereby providing Adam and Gerrard with the necessary space to dictate the center. Call me naive but that's how I see it and that's how I'd approach it.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 01, 2012, 07:00:28 PM
Interesting. The key will then be that we keep possession well and don't give it away cheaply. Taking the game to City in their own backyard is interesting. It certainly could silence their crowd, who expect them to take teams apart now and hopefully an atitude the crowd develops transmits itself to the players.

After their last minute defeat today, our goalscoring victory and the extra rest we've had, hopefully it'll prove a good time to play City. Unfortunately, a victory for us would also be assisting the dirty Mancs, which considering recent events and their involvement in them, stinks.
Still, you can't have everything.   
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 01, 2012, 09:55:31 PM
After their last minute defeat today, our goalscoring victory and the extra rest we've had, hopefully it'll prove a good time to play City. Unfortunately, a victory for us would also be assisting the dirty Mancs, which considering recent events and their involvement in them, stinks.
Still, you can't have everything.

That last point wasn't lost on me either. But 3pts gained at City's expense is no guarantee it will help Utd to win the title with so many games remaining. They travel to NUFC who will be no push-overs. And of course there is the Rooney fallout and a team still looking far from the finished article.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 01, 2012, 10:01:05 PM
And of course there is the Rooney fallout and a team still looking far from the finished article.

Ray, who's Rooney fallen out with now?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 01, 2012, 10:10:18 PM
Can we all agree to be grateful that at least this man no longer sits in our dug out:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIfKHVJz02c&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIfKHVJz02c&feature=player_embedded)


I was wrong, again, just as I was about Skrtel. I never thought the face rubbing could be beaten but it appears we have a new winner.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 01, 2012, 10:12:12 PM
Interesting. The key will then be that we keep possession well and don't give it away cheaply. Taking the game to City in their own backyard is interesting. It certainly could silence their crowd, who expect them to take teams apart now and hopefully an atitude the crowd develops transmits itself to the players.

After their last minute defeat today, our goalscoring victory and the extra rest we've had, hopefully it'll prove a good time to play City. Unfortunately, a victory for us would also be assisting the dirty Mancs, which considering recent events and their involvement in them, stinks.
Still, you can't have everything.

Remember the derby? We kept our cool, we kept our patience. That helped us keep possession which in the end helped us win. Fair enough. some will say the sending-off was the sole reason we won. I don't think it was.

Key will be to keep our cool, keep our patience, keep possession. If we start the game with a 4-5-1 we will throw away whatever chance we have at doing just that. I'm not saying we should, or are even able to, play Barca like footy. Just that we dare to push the team high up the pitch, try to retain the ball on their half and keep pushing Johnson and Enrique forward. If we do that we give ourselves a much better chance to keep the ball and as long as we do that City will struggle to score. I also think today's result was positive in that if we can stick to our gameplan they will sooner rather than later get frustrated. I actually have a feeling we could win this provided Kenny give the team a proper chance at doing just that.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 01, 2012, 10:25:45 PM
Ray, who's Rooney fallen out with now?

Rooney, Fletcher and Gibson plus spouses went out for a meal Boxing Day night and when Ferguson heard he went livid. That's why Rooney didn't play Saturday. Ferguson dropped him.

Before a game a ban on staying out late is understandable but this was after one and given it was Christmas I don't see anything wrong with what they did. Expect more fallout after last year's threat by Rooney to leave.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2080810/Wayne-Rooney-axed-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-Boxing-Day-dinner-Coleen.html
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 01, 2012, 10:43:52 PM
Rooney, Fletcher and Gibson plus spouses went out for a meal Boxing Day night and when Ferguson heard he went livid. That's why Rooney didn't play Saturday. Ferguson dropped him.

Before a game a ban on staying out late is understandable but this was after one and given it was Christmas I don't see anything wrong with what they did. Expect more fallout after last year's threat by Rooney to leave.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2080810/Wayne-Rooney-axed-Sir-Alex-Ferguson-Boxing-Day-dinner-Coleen.html

Thanks, Ray, very interesting, though I had to laugh at that part about the game of charades. I guess Taggart isn't as thick skinned as he makes out. Long may it rumble on.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 07:31:42 PM
Just for the record! He leaves Gerrard, Bellers and Maxi on the bench. Now that's crime against footy. Congrats City to your 3-0 or 4-1 victory. Your best contributer to the game? That's easy, Kenny Dalglish. I'm willing to bet two weeks of hanging in shame Spearing will get sent off. He isn't up to these kind of games yet (if ever).
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 03, 2012, 07:39:10 PM
Just for the record! He leaves Gerrard, Bellers and Maxi on the bench. Now that's crime against footy. Congrats City to your 3-0 or 4-1 victory. Your best contributer to the game? That's easy, Kenny Dalglish. I'm willing to bet two weeks of hanging in shame Spearing will get sent off. He isn't up to these kind of games yet (if ever).

Talk about setting yourself up for a fall!!  >:(
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 03, 2012, 07:50:30 PM
Draw'd be a good result, imo.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 07:53:37 PM
Talk about setting yourself up for a fall!!  >:(

I'd gladly take that fall, but I fear I won't have to.
Title: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on January 03, 2012, 08:19:21 PM
Just heard on Sky that Downing one on one with Hart fluffed it.  Minutes later we're 1 nil down!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 08:29:26 PM
Big Reina blunder yet again. Incredible goal to concede realy. We're playing quite well but struggle, suprise surprise, in the last 3rd.
Title: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on January 03, 2012, 08:33:45 PM
Own goals, hitting the bar, goal keeping blunders and wait for it, 2 nil down. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 08:35:46 PM
2-0 and the humiliation has just begun. Well done Kenny, keep Henderson and Spearing on the pitch. The're such contributers, especially in the last 3rd. We're making a larf of ourselves agan. Pathetic!!!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 03, 2012, 08:42:40 PM
I've seen more balance in an inebriated camel, balancing a jelly on it's back, while riding a rollercoaster
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 08:49:31 PM
This mismanagement of the team has to stop. Surely Downing and Henderson must be two of the worst PL signings in history?

It was written all over a 4-5-1 formation would never work and beside playing well for 15 minutes in the middle of the half we've either hoofed it long or gone on one man runs ridiculously easy for City to clear. It hurts so much to se me beloved team mismanaged this way.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 03, 2012, 09:01:13 PM
This mismanagement of the team has to stop.
B*llocks, get Stevie G on the pitch and let's get at them!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Edward224 on January 03, 2012, 09:04:48 PM
Kuyt I salute you for the player you have been for us, but your time here is well and truly up.

Atrocious tonight.

Henderson has been very good though and Downing's confidence is really low.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 03, 2012, 09:14:03 PM
Kuyt I salute you for the player you have been for us, but your time here is well and truly up.

Atrocious tonight.

Kuyt is a top class player.

only Kenny could f.uk up this nugget's form.

but it's not just Kuyt........beyond Suarez, who else on our offensive end of the team is excelling under Kenny?  Nobody.

Bellamy and Maxi, despite Kenny's best efforts, excel when they manage to get a game.

But name one offensive regular (beyond Suarez) who is excelling under Kenny.  Not one.

Kenny wouldn't recognise a decent well-balanced side, if it hit him in the face with a sledge-hammer.

With the nutty signing of Carroll, we are now tonight (as usual) firing endless meaningless high balls into the box.  And this is the Liverpool Way?  Bo.ll.ocks it is.

Ah, here comes Bellamy and Gerrard from the bench. 




Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 09:16:42 PM
Henderson has been very good though

Humor at its best. Well done for a good larf mate. What a total idiot Kenny is for taking our best player off and keeping Henderson on. He's making a mess of this team and it was good to hear the travelling kop booooooo his decision to take off Adam.

Sack Kenny now!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 09:26:58 PM
Quite funny really. 9 men outside the box with Carrol alone in it against 4 City defenders. Way to go, way to go. But there you go Henderson strolled around the park throughout the season knowing full well it doesn't matter how c.r.a.p. he is, he'll start the next game anyway. Same with Downing, offering nothing nothing nothing while Maxi rots on the bench. The only thing this will do is to divide the team.

It's incredible how easy it is for City to defend against us.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 03, 2012, 09:35:25 PM
Us 3 - 0 Us

Individual mistakes have cost us dearly. Goal difference is now adding up (or down) to - 1 point.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 03, 2012, 09:41:53 PM
Maxi now on (to join gerrard and bellamy)
 
well-called, Martin.
 
3-0 down and Kenny bolts the stable door when the horses have long since bolted.
 
anyone with a titter of sense would have saw what was coming tonight.  Maybe Kenny fancies the league cup more than a possible chance at 4th (not that I think we will ever get near 4th)
 
if you don't play your strongest team when you are playing the premiership leaders, on their own ground, then WHEN do you play your best team.
 
heck. does Kenny even have a sniff of what his best team actually is.
 
and lest anyone be unsure, Carroll was his usual rubbish tonight.  As the bloke doing the blog commentary for the Daily Telegraph says:   ""Andy Carroll has struggled to make an impression," reckons Alan Smith on Sky. I beg to differ. Carroll has in fact made quite a passable impression of a postbox with a ponytail."
 
A post-box with a pony-tail pretty much sums it up.

 
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 09:47:37 PM
Maxi now on (to join gerrard and bellamy)
 
well-called, Martin.
 
3-0 down and Kenny bolts the stable door when the horses have long since bolted.
 
anyone with a titter of sense would have saw what was coming tonight.  Maybe Kenny fancies the league cup more than a possible chance at 4th (not that I think we will ever get near 4th)
 
if you don't play your strongest team when you are playing the premiership leaders, on their own ground, then WHEN do you play your best team.
 
heck. does Kenny even have a sniff of what his best team actually is.
 
and lest anyone be unsure, Carroll was his usual rubbish tonight.  As the bloke doing the blog commentary for the Daily Telegraph says:   ""Andy Carroll has struggled to make an impression," reckons Alan Smith on Sky. I beg to differ. Carroll has in fact made quite a passable impression of a postbox with a ponytail."
 
A post-box with a pony-tail pretty much sums it up.

I don't think Carrol's been the problem tonite. It's Downing and Henderson and the negative impact they have on the team's ability to play well.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 10:01:08 PM
I am getting the feeling Liverpool Football Club is finished as a top club. I cannot see us getting better than 6th in the forseeable future. The rot started years ago but is now increasing in speed. In a few years time when we look back I think the key moment will be the horrendous signings we made.

It has to be said, Henderson and Downing are flops and will NEVER be good enough. They get games regardless of how poor they are. Now this is sending signals. Unfortunately the wrong signals. The whole world can see better and more experienced players are rotting on the Liverpool bench just so that Downing and Henderson will come good, which the whole world also can see will never happen. No players will want to come to a club run like that.

As I said in previous posts I really thought we had a good chance to win the game tonite IF Kenny chosed the right formation and the right team and he failed massively at both.

I have never felt so resigned. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 03, 2012, 10:09:29 PM
I have never felt so resigned.

if it's any help Martin, me as an independent looking on and advising purely on what I see, you've always been resigned, every week-end and mid-week game, across the last 30 years.





















 :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 10:15:56 PM
 :D

Fair enough I guess. Seriously though, under GH and Rafa at least anything less than 4th was unthinkable, today 4th seems unthinkable for other reasons and I can't see that change before 2020 at least.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 03, 2012, 10:16:31 PM
Just for the record! He leaves Gerrard, Bellers and Maxi on the bench. Now that's crime against footy. Congrats City to your 3-0 or 4-1 victory. Your best contributer to the game? That's easy, Kenny Dalglish. I'm willing to bet two weeks of hanging in shame Spearing will get sent off. He isn't up to these kind of games yet (if ever).
I'll hold my hands up and say you were right Martin. But I'm fed up with all the negativity on this forum so I won't be around for a while.

Quite frankly I'm fed up with people rubbishing certain players and calling for the manager to be sacked. If this is meant to the the new Liverpool Way you can bloody well keep it!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 03, 2012, 10:27:26 PM
I'm fed up with all the negativity on this forum so I won't be around for a while.

Quite frankly I'm fed up with people rubbishing certain players and calling for the manager to be sacked.

remind me if I'm wrong here, but you were happy to see Rafa sacked, right?

and as fans, are we supposed to ignore 112 million quid spent last year, and the fact we have not advanced one-iota nearer the the top 4 spots in the league.  As I said since September, we are playing top 8 level football most of the time.  With some luck, we may finish top 6.  That is about it.

And are we supposed to ignore the FA's report and laud the knee-jerk defence of racist outbursts. 

this is not the Liverpool I knew and grew up loving.

Still like you Ray.  And still wanna chink beer bottles here and get drunk. 

But I will defend myself. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 03, 2012, 10:31:11 PM
But there you go playing crap like Maxi and Henderson who contributes next to nothing.

Martin above is a comment of yours after the Blackburn game and below is a quote from just a few minutes ago. I'm confused. Do you want Kenny to play Maxi or leave him on the bench? He cant do both. Could you be one of those fans who will fault him no matter what decision he makes?

Same with Downing, offering nothing nothing nothing while Maxi rots on the bench.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 10:32:19 PM
I'll hold my hands up and say you were right Martin. But I'm fed up with all the negativity on this forum so I won't be around for a while.

Quite frankly I'm fed up with people rubbishing certain players and calling for the manager to be sacked. If this is meant to the the new Liverpool Way you can bloody well keep it!

Sorry to hear that Ray mate, but it's hard to be positive when old farts like myself with surgical precision game in and game out can tell how the game will pan out before it even started.

Henderson keeps strolling the park passing it sideways and backwards to the nearest player. Offers no physical presence, no movement, no nothing. Yet he's probably the single Liverpool midfielder who played the most number of minutes in the PL.

Downing, misses chance after chance and contributed only a handful of decent crosses and then I'm being generous.

At the same time we have players like Bellers, Maxi and Kuijt who rots on the bench despite contributing, if not goals, movement, tempo and pace to our game.

Also, Kenny's playing formations he doesn't have the personell for further making it difficult for the players to establish a gameplay.

I'm sorry Ray, but nothing would please me more than to have something positive to say.

Can't see us beat both Arsenal and Chelsea to 4th and that's not me being negative for the sake of it, but because any other analysis would be extremly unrealistic and void of reason.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 10:34:32 PM
Martin above is a comment of yours after the Blackburn game and below is a quote from just a few minutes ago. I'm confused. Do you want Kenny to play Maxi or leave him on the bench? He cant do both. Could you be one of those fans who will fault him no matter what decision he makes?

I stand by my comment Maxi contributed nothing against Rovers as he almost never do against "lesser" sides. He's a given in games against topsides do.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 03, 2012, 10:40:23 PM
it's only 5.30pm here and I am due up at a friend's house at 8pm.

but after pretty much a dry Xmas and new year period (2 tiny glasses of red wine and half a dozen beers), I am tempted to open a bottle of red wine and drown my sorrows.

you're all welcome.
wish you were on skype.  What is it about free that annoys you all.   :P
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 03, 2012, 10:52:48 PM
I'll hold my hands up and say you were right Martin. But I'm fed up with all the negativity on this forum so I won't be around for a while.

Quite frankly I'm fed up with people rubbishing certain players and calling for the manager to be sacked. If this is meant to the the new Liverpool Way you can bloody well keep it!

Ray dont let the negativity drive you away from the forum. There are plenty of optimists on here recognise that Liverpool are in the process of building for the furure again. Its going to be a slow process and mistakes will be made along the way. As well as that we will be competing against 5 other very good teams so 4th is never going to be guaranteed. Look at Man City. They have spent hundreds of millions for the last number of years but this is only their first year in the Premier League. There are plenty of fans out there who will give Kenny and players time. When Henrys plan finally bears some success at least you know you wont be just jumping on the bandwagon. So stick around and keep the posts coming!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 03, 2012, 10:59:58 PM
would be a poorer place without Ray.

But there will always be some degree or other, of negativity. 

Heck, look at me, I managed to stick around despite the endless negativity, and abuse, of Rafa Benitez, his signings and his strategy.

 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 03, 2012, 11:06:08 PM
I stand by my comment Maxi contributed nothing against Rovers as he almost never do against "lesser" sides. He's a given in games against topsides do.

Martin thats a weak attempt to explain your point. Are you suggesting we leave Maxi on the bench for 28 games a season and only play him against the other top 5 or if not who do you suggest we should be playing him against? Hes either good enough or not. To suggest Kenny should hand pick the games hes going to start Maxi in is ridiculous. Should Kenny tell him in August altogether what premier league games he should expect to start for the season.

For me those two conflicting points show how fickle and irrational some of your points can be. Basically you want Kenny gone at all costs and are willing to use any reason possible to justify why he should go.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 11:07:05 PM
Look at Man City. They have spent hundreds of millions for the last number of years but this is only their first year in the Premier League.

Too bad they, just like Spurs, didn't misplace them like we did or we'd actually have a chance at top 5. Not negativity, simple truth really.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 11:09:11 PM
Martin thats a weak attempt to explain your point. Are you suggesting we leave Maxi on the bench for 28 games a season and only play him against the other top 5 or if not who do you suggest we should be playing him against? Hes either good enough or not. To suggest Kenny should hand pick the games hes going to start Maxi in is ridiculous. Should Kenny tell him in August altogether what premier league games he should expect to start for the season.

For me those two conflicting points show how fickle and irrational some of your points can be. Basically you want Kenny gone at all costs and are willing to use any reason possible to justify why he should go.

I am glad it pleases you not all of my arguments are rock solid. Unfortunately my overall analysis is and it'll prove in time how utterly naive you were to think this was just a "transitional phase". No CL footy on this side of 2015 I tell you. For that to happen we need a manager able to sign good enough players, pick his best formation and his best team. Our current manager failed all these three criteria and there's strong evidence to that fact.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 03, 2012, 11:17:52 PM

would be a poorer place without Ray.

But there will always be some degree or other, of negativity. 

Heck, look at me, I managed to stick around despite the endless negativity, and abuse, of Rafa Benitez, his signings and his strategy.

Agreed Dude it would be a poorer place without Ray.

On Rafa Dude I was also a huge fan. There were certain areas of his management style that I didnt like but I was gutted to see him go. I thought he could have done a huge amount with this club had he been given the right finances. Saying that though Dude do you not feel its time to move on from the Rafa era. He was sacked by a different regime. The fact that the club haemoraged money and had a huge over paid under talented squad during his era probably means someone like John Henry wont consider hiring him again. I also dont think they would like to take on his political side.  Anyway my point is I dont know why you would continue to compare Kennys reign to Rafas because they are under such different circumstances it will be impossible to ever compare accurately. You will never be able to give Kenny a decent chance if you keep looking back to Rafa.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 03, 2012, 11:20:07 PM
For me those two conflicting points show how fickle and irrational some of your points can be.

I agree with you on that Maxi issue/contradictory quotes, Juan.

But let me make a wider point.

The people who are lost and dazzled in the glare of Kenny, the legend, will have to at some point set down the communion wine and realise that they are worshipping a false God.

The hypocrisy is astounding, in their ill-advised worship.

Rafa took us to two CL finals and we pretty much played in the CL every year.   He falls short once, and you all want him sacked.

And yet, the same benchmark does not apply to Kenny.....why?  He apparently needs more time (and lots more money). 

Rafa made the very best of the resources that he had to call upon.  The same cannot be said of Kenny.

Was there some form of ísm against Rafa? 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 03, 2012, 11:31:15 PM
The fact that the club haemoraged money and had a huge over paid under talented squad during Rafa's era probably means someone like John Henry wont consider hiring him again.

I don't accept that for a minute, Juan.

the little englanders at the Daily Hail and that Laaawton columnist had it in for Rafa, during those final 18 months.  Aided and abetted by Mr and Mrs Liverpool, and their big media mate at the News of the Tur.d.  And regular fans bought their drivel, hook line and sinker.

It's a bit rich talking about Rafa's squad as being huge and overpaid, when we see Kenny shelling out 112 million quid these past 12 months.....and no doubt much more to come over the next season or two.

Rafa had to often wheel and deal.  And whilst I admired the fact that (unlike Houllier) his pride allowed him to admit a mistake early on and sell a player quickly on.......I thought he did a little too much wheeling and dealing.....continuity/consistency/stability in the squad suffered.

Rafa had to wheel and deal, and often operate in the bargain basement end of the market.  Kenny has the pick of pretty much who he wants across Europe and the world.  Just imagine what talent Rafa could have found, for 112 million quid, across Europe in 2011.  He would have found players of technical excellence.



Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 03, 2012, 11:41:23 PM
I am glad it pleases you not all of my arguments are rock solid. Unfortunately my overall analysis is and it'll prove in time how utterly naive you were to think this was just a "transitional phase". No CL footy on this side of 2015 I tell you. For that to happen we need a manager able to sign good enough players, pick his best formation and his best team. Our current manager failed all these three criteria and there's strong evidence to that fact.

Spare me the dramatics Martin, I take no pleasure in attempting to discount your opinions. I respect everyones opinion but I just find you are extremely negative and are willing to beat Kennys performace with any stick you can find. You downplay any positive aspects at the club and you attempt to magnify any faults. We lost to Man City tonight at the Eastlands. As bad as that is they do have a pretty good home record in 2011 and the fact that they beat United so comprehensively at OT suggests we werent just playing any old mugs.

In relation to the transitional phase if you hadnt noticed the club had been in pretty bad financial shape right up until October 2010. According to Ian Ayre we were a week from going into administration. We hadnt qualified for the Champions League in the previous season. So why should we have requalified for the Champions League within a year of the new owners being in place. Who ever said that it was going to be that straighforward. Maybe it will take us until after 2015. Is it your belief that the fact KDs spent 112 million means we should be in the top 4 now? Man City have proved that even with huge investment it can take a number of years to do and theyve spent alot more than us.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 03, 2012, 11:52:52 PM
Is it your belief that the fact KDs spent 112 million means we should be in the top 4 now?

Yes.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 03, 2012, 11:53:26 PM
Ray dont let the negativity drive you away from the forum. There are plenty of optimists on here recognise that Liverpool are in the process of building for the furure again. Its going to be a slow process and mistakes will be made along the way. As well as that we will be competing against 5 other very good teams so 4th is never going to be guaranteed. Look at Man City. They have spent hundreds of millions for the last number of years but this is only their first year in the Premier League. There are plenty of fans out there who will give Kenny and players time. When Henrys plan finally bears some success at least you know you wont be just jumping on the bandwagon. So stick around and keep the posts coming!

To expand on Juan's point about City - when you look at the first set of players they brought in they were about the same level as what we've brought in, however, that was always going to be the first of many stages and they have had / have the money to pay way over the odds in both transfer fees and wages on a consistant basis in order to attract players they otherwise would have no chance of attracting.
Will we have the funds to the same? I doubt any of us really believe we will. So we can't pay £20M+ in one window then repeat that on a direct replacement in the next window.
In other words, everything we do we have to get right, first time every time, otherwise the money going to replace the mistake that hasn't taken us forward, can't be used to take us even further forward. City's owners have the money to keeping buying whilst learning, ours probably don't.
Therefore mistakes have a greater effect and become more costly and noticeable as they can't be rectified as easily or as quickly.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 04, 2012, 12:01:15 AM
To expand on Juan's point about City - when you look at the first set of players they brought in they were about the same level as what we've brought in, however, that was always going to be the first of many stages and they have had / have the money to pay way over the odds in both transfer fees and wages on a consistant basis in order to attract players they otherwise would have no chance of attracting.
Will we have the funds to the same? I doubt any of us really believe we will. So we can't pay £20M+ in one window then repeat that on a direct replacement in the next window.
In other words, everything we do we have to get right, first time every time, otherwise the money going to replace the mistake that hasn't taken us forward, can't be used to take us even further forward. City's owners have the money to keeping buying whilst learning, ours probably don't.
Therefore mistakes have a greater effect and become more costly and noticeable as they can't be rectified as easily or as quickly.

But tes, isn't that really just another way of hiding away from the fact we spent a shocking amount of money on not nearly good enough players? Seriously, what exactly justifies the money we spent on Hendeson, Downing and Carrol? I don't think you could find any objective observer who'd say that was money well spent.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 04, 2012, 12:06:51 AM
Also, you also seem to forget that City started off as a mid-table club meaning not only did they have to build a team, they also needed to form an identity as something different to what they used to be. We, on the other hand, already had that in place. We're supposed to be a top team. But there never were a team and there will never be a team able to reach 4th with a manager unable to make at least decent signings, pick a suitable formation and play his best team. As I said above, Kenny fails in all departments and come the summer all of Kuijt, Bellars and Maxi will be long gone which means we need to add further players which means we will need another season to build etc., etc., etc., etc.

Kenny just doesn't have what it takes on this level. It was good to let him come in after Roy but a total and utter disaster to give him the helm permanently.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 04, 2012, 12:09:28 AM
I agree with you on that Maxi issue/contradictory quotes, Juan.

But let me make a wider point.

The people who are lost and dazzled in the glare of Kenny, the legend, will have to at some point set down the communion wine and realise that they are worshipping a false God.

The hypocrisy is astounding, in their ill-advised worship.

Rafa took us to two CL finals and we pretty much played in the CL every year.   He falls short once, and you all want him sacked.

And yet, the same benchmark does not apply to Kenny.....why?  He apparently needs more time (and lots more money). 

Rafa made the very best of the resources that he had to call upon.  The same cannot be said of Kenny.

Was there some form of ísm against Rafa?

Dude you completely misinterpret my loyalty for Kenny if you believe it to be nothing more than worship of an old club idol. I accept that there is definitely an element of that among our fanbase but I believe the majority of fans are behind him because they genuinely believe he can be a success. There may have been a touch of fairytale comeback when he first returned, old King Kenny back in the dugout but any romanticism was soon out the window and I base any of my opinions of Kenny on what Ive seen to date. I dont argue he hasnt made mistakes but Ive also highlighted here on too many occasions the amount of good I think he done for the club.

Rafa on the other hand you either loved him or hated him, there was very few fans split down the middle. I never remember a set of fans from any club being so at odds with one another over the manager of their team. And I hate to diappoint you Dude but I was one of those fans firmly in Benitezs corner. I never wanted him sacked and always said I'd love to see him given a chance at LFC with some cash. Unfortunately Hicks and Gillett managed to do something they couldnt do for a long time and get rid. If Rafa fought on until Henry and co arrived he would probably be still in the managers dugout now. Where we would be in the league it would be hard to say but undoubtedly the team would en route to becoming one of Rafas well oiled machines. That said you cant start comparing Rafas CL win to what Kennys achieved in one calender year because its been very different circumstances. With the other big teams out there in the league now finishing fourth is tougher than when Rafa first arrived. And Rafa inherited a team already in the CL. His first season he also finished 5th and only requalified because we had won it. Kenny took over last season with the team in 12th and we ended up finishing 6th. Its only Christmas and we're already 6th and 3 points off Chelsea in 4th. To me that constitutes progress whether it was Rafa, Kenny or the Dude himself in charge.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 04, 2012, 12:11:12 AM
Yes.

Even though that its a nett spend of about 40 million?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 04, 2012, 12:16:34 AM
But tes, isn't that really just another way of hiding away from the fact we spent a shocking amount of money on not nearly good enough players? Seriously, what exactly justifies the money we spent on Hendeson, Downing and Carrol? I don't think you could find any objective observer who'd say that was money well spent.

Firstly, since City starting buying players in the quality bracket we've bought in the prices have risen, partly in thanks to them. Downing cost Villa £12M at the time City started spending (overpriced then also IMHO). Now without doing very much to actually add value himself, his price tag has risen accordingly. As far as value goes, I've made my feelings clear enough so I'm very much out in the open on that one. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 04, 2012, 12:24:17 AM
Even though that its a nett spend of about 40 million?

Yes, because you're not, or at least you shouldn't be, guided by what the actual net spend comes down to, but rather what quality the player bring in. If we'd spent 14 million on 3 players it would've been much easier to live with the fact they'r not good enough. You don' get it do you? The money will be gone and we ain't gonna get any new either from Henry nor from CL footy. You say build up is slow. It may be, but so is also decay.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 04, 2012, 12:26:31 AM
Firstly, since City starting buying players in the quality bracket we've bought in the prices have risen, partly in thanks to them. Downing cost Villa £12M at the time City started spending (overpriced then also IMHO). Now without doing very much to actually add value himself, his price tag has risen accordingly. As far as value goes, I've made my feelings clear enough so I'm very much out in the open on that one.

I don't care what he cost Villa. I could've told Kenny and Comolli before hand he isn't worth that sum, let alone another 8. The problem is our scouting system has to be, and have been for over a decade, among the worst in Europe. They decide to splash out 20 million on what? Statistics. Now that's the world gone crazy and as far away from the Liverpool way you could ever get.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 04, 2012, 12:28:09 AM
But tes, isn't that really just another way of hiding away from the fact we spent a shocking amount of money on not nearly good enough players? Seriously, what exactly justifies the money we spent on Hendeson, Downing and Carrol? I don't think you could find any objective observer who'd say that was money well spent.

Henderson has been bought for the next 10 years so to judge him so harshly on his first 4 months at the club isnt giving the guy a fair chance.

Downing is a different case because he was bought to perform now. I agree that he looks out of his depth at the moment and doesnt seem to have any end product at all which is worrying. You have to hope that his form picks up , if it does we benefit from assists and goals but if it doesnt we sell him and replace him with someone else who we believe can do the job. Thats football not every player signing works out.

Carroll I accept was a rash buy that I cant see fitting into the style of football we are trying to play. He is probably Kennys biggest mistake to date and probably one he cant defend. So with the exception of Carroll I think its easy to ridicule Kenny over his signings now but most were probably less inclined to ridicule him when the deals were being put in place. The benefit of hindsight.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 04, 2012, 12:32:09 AM
Also, you also seem to forget that City started off as a mid-table club meaning not only did they have to build a team, they also needed to form an identity as something different to what they used to be.

500 million in transfer funds and astronomical player salaries helps to speed up the whole team identity process.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 04, 2012, 12:35:25 AM
Quite frankly I'm fed up with people rubbishing certain players and calling for the manager to be sacked. If this is meant to the the new Liverpool Way you can bloody well keep it!
ASI, don't take it all too seriously!

There are different viewpoints on here, but as the season progresses that's
part of the fun of the debate, imo.  :)

I stated back awhile, the views I have about Kenny, believing he can probably
get us 4th and maybe win a cup this season. If he doesn't, then at the end of
the season I think questions should be asked. From a personal viewpoint, I've
always idolised Dalglish and agree there are times on here when he has been
shown a lot of disrespect, more than, imo, falls under the umbrella of FAIR COMMENT.

Occasionally, I have a pop at Stevie G 'cos despite his fantastic abilities, there's
something that's bugged me about the captaincy not been passed on the way Sami
did and some other stuff.

Tbh though, this season, I've been quite mellow about standards because I accept that
it's a work in progress and Kenny's a good guy.

The point is, there's no point (like others on here tend to) judging and condemning the
current team using Old Liverpool standards, because the reality is we're nowhere near
that at the moment.

Our title is 4th this season (last time i looked we were 3 points off that) and ok we face a
bit of adversity, sfw, we battle on and stick together (& stand by our player
Luis Suarez, despite what the broad consensus of the London-based media is. YNWA).

I am confident that we have a great bunch of lads this this season, with a fair amount of quality
and potential. The season's only half-way through and I expect that the best is yet to come.
So, I support the players and the manager, simple as!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 04, 2012, 12:38:36 AM
Firstly, since City starting buying players in the quality bracket we've bought in the prices have risen, partly in thanks to them. Downing cost Villa £12M at the time City started spending (overpriced then also IMHO). Now without doing very much to actually add value himself, his price tag has risen accordingly. As far as value goes, I've made my feelings clear enough so I'm very much out in the open on that one.

And lets not forget Young who had roughly the same goals and assists for Villa last year went for 16 million and he only had a year left on his contract. So we either paid the msrket value for Downing or walked away. As you say Tes its City and Chelsea have created this monster and unfortunately if we want to attempt to bring in half decent players we will pay over the odds.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 04, 2012, 12:42:18 AM
500 million in transfer funds and astronomical player salaries helps to speed up the whole team identity process.

The fact that Chelsea were being called a big club after one title win (Blackburn Rovers didn't quite get the same accolade) and City are now being described in the same terms are testament to that. The media are guilty as charged for that. No balance or perspective. Just sensationalism and hype. All image, no substance.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 04, 2012, 12:47:02 AM
I don't care what he cost Villa. I could've told Kenny and Comolli before hand he isn't worth that sum, let alone another 8. The problem is our scouting system has to be, and have been for over a decade, among the worst in Europe. They decide to splash out 20 million on what? Statistics. Now that's the world gone crazy and as far away from the Liverpool way you could ever get.

There's value, cost and then market value. The former, in football terms, bears no relevance to the latter two.

I don't think you'll find too many people saying that Downing for £20M was value for money. Stating it over and over won't change it.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 04, 2012, 12:47:14 AM
Yes, because you're not, or at least you shouldn't be, guided by what the actual net spend comes down to, but rather what quality the player bring in. If we'd spent 14 million on 3 players it would've been much easier to live with the fact they'r not good enough. You don' get it do you? The money will be gone and we ain't gonna get any new either from Henry nor from CL footy. You say build up is slow. It may be, but so is also decay.

But Martin why will the money be gone as you say if in fact we've actually only spent 40 million Nett. Why are you worried about the 112 million when we are actually balancing our books? Forget about the value of players and the players we have already signed. If LFC is actually balancing the books, driving down its wage costs, selling unused players that in previous years would have been making no contribution and collecting a wage why then are you worried about our financial state of affairs because we spent roughly 40 million net in one window? You say I dont get it , maybe your right but Im pretty sure John Henry gets it and if he allows Kenny Dalglish a Nett Spend of 40 million Im pretty sure its not going to bankrupt the club anytime soon.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 04, 2012, 01:34:31 AM
The money's gone in the sense that of the 75 million Kenny splashed out on Carrol, Henderson and Downing he'd get back roughly half that sum if he sold them today (don't think he could get them sold at all to be honest). Your way of using the net spend argument wouldn't get you many jobs as an accountant.

But I don't want this to be an economic discussion. The key question is though, do we get the quality we're paying for, or indeed are in desperate need of? The only answer to that is a blatant NO! Could we use that money in a better way to organise the team and the squad? YES. Is the club in a state where it needs players to come in and make an instant difference, or can we afford to miss out on CL footy another couple of years to allow players of questionable quality to fit in? I'd say it's the former. That's why your argument Henderson is bought for the next 10 years makes me realise how diametrically different we view things. You see, if he's here for the long haul surely it won't traumatise his career to be slowly introduced to the team while better and more experienced players help creating a winning culture/mentality? But Kenny's hellbent on proving to the world he was right in bringing him in and playing him ahead of far better players. Don Quijote springs to mind. You say building a team will take time.

Many fans spent the summer vetting their mouths at the prospect of Downing whipping in crosses for Carrol. What if I told you then the number of goals between them would stop at 1 after half the season's played. Is there any way I can get you to admit Kenny got it dead wrong on them three players?

Again, Bellers, Maxi and Kuijt will be go in the summer. They need replacing - open the wallet Henry. No worries, the net spend will be OK you see.

It aint working and instead of getting stuck in details I'd preferred if you could comment on my argument our manager is unable to make decent signings, play a suitable formation and play his best team. Or is that unfair criticism?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 04, 2012, 01:54:52 AM
I've seen more balance in an inebriated camel, balancing a jelly on it's back, while riding a rollercoaster
Dude, let's not forget that Houghton, Barnes, Beardsley & Aldridge in full flow
is one of those rare things in football....a thing of great beauty....the balance
between these players goes above and beyond words, it's in a different realm!

Dalglish, to his credit is the author of that!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 04, 2012, 04:38:50 AM
The worse thing about Downing is not the fee but that his mentality appears so brittle.

The idea that players already playing in the Premier League won't need time to adapt is fine but it seems to have been overlooked that we're not asking them to adapt to the Premier League, but to adapt to playing for a much, much higher profile club than they previously have. That, is a bigger ask than the ability to realise the ball quicker as you have less time before being put under pressure (the requirement of a newcomer to the glorified pub football that is the Inglish Premyer League). The tactically and technically astute manage the adaptation OK.

Downing (and possibly) Adam are showing signs of not having the mentality or personality to adapt to being at a club with the profile we have. Adam has shown mere glimpses (at least on a consistant basis) of being anything more than the 'new Danny Murphy' rather than the 'new Alonso'.

Henderson needs to be seen in context. Within the context of what we needed he was the right player at the wrong time. That's not his fault and therefore shouldn't be judged as harshly. We were so far off where we needed to be that the players we signed needed to be for the 'now' not for 'the future'. Henderson will grow as Lucas has done.

It's a sign of the owner's inexperience of football that they listened to 'one of their own' in Billy Beane when appointing our 'transfer guru' in Comolli. Anybody else thought he did 'better than average' at Spurs?
No, thought not.
And here in lies my only problem with them so far. They've yet to make a 'football' appointment to the board. Yes. LFC is now a business, but it's business is football. You need to have the expertise in the market in which you operate, in addition to 'general business' expertise.

If Dalglish has 'the final say' then what weight does Comolli's views have? None, unless they happen to coincide with Dalglish's, then they get actioned, after a fashion.

If you have a director of football, you appoint a coach, and only a coach, not a manager. The director of football recruits, the coach fashions a team out of the raw material he's provided. That's the only way it works.
Dalglish is not a coach. Never has been. He's a manager.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 04, 2012, 11:25:35 PM
Kuyt I salute you for the player you have been for us, but your time here is well and truly up.

Atrocious tonight.

Henderson has been very good though and Downing's confidence is really low.
Dunno, i'd be surprised if a clever player like Kuyt, became sh.ite overnight (even more
surprised if he became shiite).

Granted he didn't have his best game in a red shirt. It would be disrespectful though, imo, to
write off a Dutch international who's played in a World Cup final & served us so well in the past.
I think the following are valid reasons:

He hasn't scored in so long (Strikers need goals, even if they're playing on the wing)

A senior player being pretty much sidelined from the beginning of the season in favour
of unproven talent. (Ouch!)

Adjusting his game to all the new styles. (strange 'cos he usually adapts well)
 
I also don't think the line-up + tactics suited his game on the night (I remember at one point
seeing him stranded out wide on the right, as Enrique prepared to launch one from deep to Carroll).
Kuyt's a great link guy, imo, gives the ball and looks for the return, clever interplay is a hallmark.
Obviously, he's not going to get much joy out of Carroll in that respect. Moving into the midfield,
there's Henderson, Spearing & Adam - Spearing plays deep, Adam's a left-footer (not a natural
partner for Kuyt on the right) &  Henderson wouldn't be consistent and/or adventurous enough
in terms of attacking intent to suit Kuyts rhythm, imo (Kuyt's always on the move looking for an
opening, Henderson is just learning the ropes and keeping possession is a lot of what he does).

I take the point though that he was peripheral (but didn't do much wrong) and his energy levels
weren't as high as we've seen before. Think he just needs a goal and some more creativity
around him and he'll be back to his usual self.

tbh, i wasn't too impressed with Johnson and would like to see young Kelly back in the side,
especially if Kuyt's playing (just feel Dirk has to be more defensive-minded at the wrong end
of the pitch when Johnson plays). Not saying Johnson is shine-a-light, just think he's the sort of player
that needs to be kept on his toes and some of his crosses (Downing also) are just not
acceptable if we're relying on Carroll up front.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 05, 2012, 04:00:50 PM
Can't stop sniggering about this  :D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxR-uaZCNJ4

 :P
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 05, 2012, 04:36:17 PM
 :D     Utd have some defensive issues to work on.   Clearly keeper and his central defence have communication issues.  Can't see the keeper being around much after the summer.

Re Kuyt.  Great lad.  Played in a world cup and a CL final.   Kenny doesn't know his ar.se from his elbow....and thus people like Kuyt are having their form destroyed.     Our best team has the likes of Kuyt, Maxi, Bellamy in it.  Mereless was great too - but Kenny jettisoned him too.   

Kenny's efforts at team building are dire.....it's a sad indictment that he has to resort back to Rafa's lads/team when he needs results.



Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 05, 2012, 05:22:24 PM
:D     Utd have some defensive issues to work on.   Clearly keeper and his central defence have communication issues.  Can't see the keeper being around much after the summer.

Re Kuyt.  Great lad.  Played in a world cup and a CL final.   Kenny doesn't know his ar.se from his elbow....and thus people like Kuyt are having their form destroyed.     Our best team has the likes of Kuyt, Maxi, Bellamy in it.  Mereless was great too - but Kenny jettisoned him too.   
We'll have to wait and see what happens in the January transfer window...

Though, I am concerned about what's happen to Kuyt (Aldridge, Twentyman) and
never agreed with selling Meireles in the short-term (he'd shown, he had what it
takes to score goals from midfield and be a creative attacker... something we sorely
miss atm + he provided continuity with all the new faces)

Anyway, panic buys would be bad sign! Young promising talent with Champions League
pedigree would suggest a grand plan (regeneration) , imo.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 06, 2012, 03:49:12 PM
I think we'll struggle to avoid a replay at their place. That's how sad we've become. I'll get a more clinical prediction once the team's announced. Have a bad feeling about this one. Hope I'm wrong tho.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 06, 2012, 05:01:21 PM
We'll have to wait and see what happens in the January transfer window...

Though, I am concerned about what's happen to Kuyt (Aldridge, Twentyman) and
never agreed with selling Meireles in the short-term (he'd shown, he had what it
takes to score goals from midfield and be a creative attacker... something we sorely
miss atm + he provided continuity with all the new faces)

Anyway, panic buys would be bad sign! Young promising talent with Champions League
pedigree would suggest a grand plan (regeneration) , imo.

agreed, on all scores.

personally, from my vantage point, I see the further that Kenny moves away from Rafa's team  rebuilds, the worse we become. 

We look at our very strongest, on those few occasions when Kenny resorts to Rafa's lads - Kuyt, Maxi, Bellamy, etc. 

When Kenny plays his own lads, Adam, Henderson, Carroll, we look top 8 material (top 6 at best).

It's a sad indictment of Kenny's team building skills.  Then again, when you sell top technical players like Mereless and refuse to play top technical players like Maxi, but instead bring in donkey-speed hoofers like Carroll, then what do you expect to happen. 

I cannot imagine Barca, Milan or Madrid will be losing sleep over meeting Carroll, Downing or Adam.

Desperately frustrating when the likes of Benitez, Ancellotti and O'Neill are out there, and who would hit the ground running.  Those individuals have forgotten more about putting teams together, than Dalglish has ever known.




Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 06, 2012, 05:05:29 PM
I think we'll struggle to avoid a replay at their place. That's how sad we've become. I'll get a more clinical prediction once the team's announced. Have a bad feeling about this one. Hope I'm wrong tho.
FFS, do you seriously think this is the attitude with which Shankly imbued our club?

A league 1 side coming to Anfield and we're supposed to s h i t ourselves?

Granted Oldham have nothing to lose and we'll respect their commitment and abilities,
but we've got a clutch of fringe players who will feel that they all have points to prove
and will be chomping at the bit to be involved in this one. I'm sure Kenny knows enough
to get the mix of experience and youth right and will send out a TEAM that will get the job
done.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 06, 2012, 05:10:01 PM
Then again, when you sell top technical players like Mereless

I cannot imagine Barca, Milan or Madrid will be losing sleep over meeting Carroll, Downing or Adam.
Agreed, regarding Meireles, though I think we only needed him short-term and the wages
with a renegotiated contract meant the decision wasn't footballing, imo.

Agreed also that Caarroll, Downing and Adam were definitely bought with the premiership in mind.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 06, 2012, 09:58:46 PM
FFS, do you seriously think this is the attitude with which Shankly imbued our club?

A league 1 side coming to Anfield and we're supposed to s h i t ourselves?

Granted Oldham have nothing to lose and we'll respect their commitment and abilities,
but we've got a clutch of fringe players who will feel that they all have points to prove
and will be chomping at the bit to be involved in this one. I'm sure Kenny knows enough
to get the mix of experience and youth right and will send out a TEAM that will get the job
done.

It all came down to lady luck in the end. Besides Bellers opener that is.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 08, 2012, 09:17:26 PM
So we get the FA's favourite team at home in the 4th round. What's the betting it gets moved to 'a neutral' ground 'to avoid trouble' or even better, home fans are banned.

There is so much latitude for further damage to our reputation that it's not funny.

I bet the FA suits are having a nervous breakdown.

Hope the lesson to Blatter was well worth it.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 11, 2012, 07:09:43 PM
Teams

Liverpool: Reina; Kelly, Agger, Skrtel, G Johnson; Gerrard, Spearing, Henderson, Downing; Carroll, Bellamy. Subs: Enriqué, Coates, Kuyt, Carragher, Shelvey, Adam, Doni.

Manchester City: Hart, Richards, Savic, Lescott, Clichy, Barry, de Jong, A. Johnson, Milner, Balotelli, Agüero. Subs: Pantilimon, Zabaleta, Kolarov, Onuoha, Hargreaves, Nasri, Dzeko

Prediction : 2 - 2
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 11, 2012, 07:23:36 PM
Behind Reina I'd say Henderson is the first name Kenny puts down on the teamsheet. Says it all really. With that line-up it'll be all up to City's level of committment and urge. If they're up to it we'll see a similar scoreline to that of last Tuesday. Our best chance at silverware probably wasted.

Prediction: City 3 - 1 Liverpool.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 11, 2012, 08:40:28 PM
Good result at HT, I guess, but that's about it. We struggle extremly to engage Bellers and Carrol. We're totally unimaginative in the final third. Also, can anyone tell Kenny it really ain't no wonder we struggle to score as long as we only get one man into the box. Defensively we're very sound tho.

Not taking anything from the lads, City just had their worst half of the season altho they recovered slightly when Balotelli went of.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 11, 2012, 08:48:08 PM
Not taking anything from the lads, City just had their worst half of the season

 :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 11, 2012, 09:05:20 PM
Glad you could see it.  :D
Title: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on January 11, 2012, 09:49:26 PM
Great first half and well deserved lead.  2nd half shocking once City moved up the gears.  Downing non-existent throughout, couldn't get past his man, Carroll was terrible up front, just  kept doing his impressions of Emile Heskey!  Henderson......I think I'll be in my grave by the time this guy comes good.  And the cherry on the cake, our players not having a frickin' clue where they were supposed to be playing mid-way through the second half.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 11, 2012, 09:56:38 PM
And the cherry on the cake, our players not having a frickin' clue where they were supposed to be playing mid-way through the second half.

yes, been the same all season.  I often see acres of green pitch, where I know Liverpool players should be standing.  The lads often seem to have no idea where they should be standing, or what they should be doing.  Zero balance in the team.    If Kenny hadn't been a legend as a player, he would never have got above 2nd or 3rd division managerial level.  imho

second half, we parked the bus in front of goal. 

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Edward224 on January 11, 2012, 09:58:29 PM
Remember the 74th minute? Long high pass from Hart hovers over Skrtel, but Aguero runs right into him. Skrtel is almost falling, but with both his feet firmly on the ground his chest lies horizontal he's balancing on his forwardstruck knees while being pushed by Aguero. Skrtel is run right into, yet he keeps his balance and heads it away before getting his freekick.

That's how monsterish he was today. Absolutely bossed City's attackers from start to finish. Story of his season this far, probably even his best ever in a red kit.

Henderson was fantastic today also, he was really our main playmaker, always had awareness of the other players and hardly misplaced a pass. It's as if he's constantly aware of where his 4 nearest teammates are. Great game for him.

Reina was also class as usual, fantastic reflexes on that corner header.

Carroll looked good in second after having a nervous first half. Good games from Gerrard and Bellamy and decent from Johnson and Enrique. Downing, Adam and Kelly were disappointing.

Most of all though, I thought we looked like a team in the defence, especially the defenders and midfielders had a good understanding of each other and held the opponents from big chances. It wasn't pretty, but they were never THAT close to scoring. Clean sheet on Etihad is a very good accomplishment.
Title: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on January 11, 2012, 10:16:34 PM
Dude, I think my rose tinted glasses have broken.....hehe
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 11, 2012, 10:21:11 PM
Dude, I think my rose tinted glasses have broken.....hehe

 :D :D :D
Title: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Gurdeep on January 11, 2012, 10:24:20 PM
No disrespect Edward, but I honestly cannot remember a telling pass from Henderson.  Carroll, apart from his chance early in the first half he didn't really do much apart from falling over and shaking his pony tail around.  Ask yourself this, Suarez or Carroll?  For the money we spent last season we should be saying it doesn't matter, but you and I both know that Suarez is the main man.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 11, 2012, 10:46:51 PM
Great result, tactically spot on out of Kenny.

We dominated City in the first half and could have been 3 up. They came at us in the second half as expected but we defended brilliantly as a unit and restricted Man Ciity to scraps. Not the prettiest football in the second half but City couldnt break us down.

Its hard to see how Carroll will ever fit the system we play. He needs a team built around him but we are never going to play that style of football he requires.

Henderson has a great engine, he runs all day. If he improves his distribution he will be a very good player in the next few years. Downing was anonymous. Adam seems to be struggling. Bellamy was as bright as ever, must be such a hard player to play against.

Obviously it will still be very difficult at Anfield but this result puts us one step closer to our first piece of silverware since the FA cup.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 11, 2012, 10:47:01 PM
Remember the 74th minute?

Remember the Alamo.

Sir Dudely Crockett
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 11, 2012, 10:51:05 PM
Great result, tactically spot on out of Kenny.

if Rafa or Roy had parked the bus, would the tactic have been lauded?   :D

Its hard to see how Carroll will ever fit the system we play. He needs a team built around him but we are never going to play that style of football he requires.

yes, whatever plank at Anfield ever imagined Andy was a) technically good enough; and b) would fit into our system; needs to be handed a P45.

agreed re silverware, Juan.  If we can get the crowd whipped up for the second leg, a league cup trophy could be there for the taking.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 11, 2012, 11:06:17 PM
if Rafa or Roy had parked the bus, would the tactic have been lauded?   :D

Ah Dude come on your not old enough for alzheimers to be kicking in just yet  ;), Rafa parked many a bus when he needed to and never apologised for it, nor should he have.


yes, whatever plank at Anfield ever imagined Andy was a) technically good enough; and b) would fit into our system; needs to be handed a P45.

agreed re silverware, Juan.  If we can get the crowd whipped up for the second leg, a league cup trophy could be there for the taking.



I will give Carroll the rest of the season to turn things around but I have to admit he has been a huge disappointment. Hes not the powerhouse we saw at Newcastle and hes not mobile enough to play the football we're playing. If theres no dramatic upturn in form hes a gonner at the club.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 12, 2012, 06:57:25 PM
Way to go Stevie G  :D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/16512668.stm

Nice to see him show some fire!

This Mancini pr**k, waving a card the last time we played them,
at it again last night over Johnson + poking his nose into the
Suarez thing.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 12, 2012, 08:09:22 PM
Ah Dude come on your not old enough for alzheimers to be kicking in just yet  ;), Rafa parked many a bus when he needed to and never apologised for it, nor should he have.

Oh, but he should've. In fact, his being staisfied with draws away against bottom half sides is one of the key factors to explain why he never could take us to the next level. I don't know how many games I tore whatever hair I might have in frustration he was going for a draw with 25 minutes to play.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Edward224 on January 12, 2012, 08:35:42 PM
Oh, but he should've. In fact, his being staisfied with draws away against bottom half sides is one of the key factors to explain why he never could take us to the next level. I don't know how many games I tore whatever hair I might have in frustration he was going for a draw with 25 minutes to play.

In europe and in the premier league is a different story.

I 100% agree with you regarding the premier league, in fact draws at home to West Ham, Wigan, Man City cost us the title.

However in knock out european ties you need to do what it takes, to get the job done and sometimes parking the bus was necessary.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 13, 2012, 06:53:15 PM
In europe and in the premier league is a different story.

I 100% agree with you regarding the premier league, in fact draws at home to West Ham, Wigan, Man City cost us the title.

However in knock out european ties you need to do what it takes, to get the job done and sometimes parking the bus was necessary.

You could add Fulham and Hull to that list + fielding an extremly weak side away to Stoke the week after we beet the Mancs. No ferkin wonder we lost. He started off well but turned out a disaster over time. And no dude, many of his weird decisions had absolutely nothing to do with G & H. He just never understood the PL. The CL's a totally different story tho.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 13, 2012, 07:35:49 PM
Who are we now talking about? Kenneth Benitez or Rafael Dalglish?

I'm confused.  ???
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 13, 2012, 09:46:16 PM
Or, same shed different name if you like.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 13, 2012, 10:47:59 PM
Or, same shed different name if you like.  :D

But is it a shed? Could it not be a hut?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 14, 2012, 12:03:05 AM
But is it a shed? Could it not be a hut?
or perhaps a bastion of invincibility  :P
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 14, 2012, 10:55:07 AM
But is it a shed? Could it not be a hut?

In theory it's a possibility, yes.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 14, 2012, 02:58:27 PM
Quite surprising line-up. Just when Carrol started to show signs he's dropped to the bench to make way for out-of-favor Kuijt. Also too much tinkering with the back-4.  IMHO, he should've kept Johnson at the back and Kuijt infront of him. Bellers and Carrol up front. But 4-4-2 will never be the way forward for Kenny.

Seriously worried about all this tinkering.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 14, 2012, 03:14:54 PM
Seriously worried

if you weren't seriously worried before each and every game, Martin, I'd be seriously concerned.   :D

if we cannae be a wee bit confident before a Liverpool v Stoke game, at our bastion of invincibility ground, then when can we ever feel a wee bit of hope in our veins.  This has to have three pointer written all over it  (famous last words from dude, in setting himself up for a fall).

and before i forget, there's a serious amount of shed-ists in here.  I am rightly and pompously concerned, about all this shedism.   We've gotta put a roof on it and move on.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 14, 2012, 03:52:59 PM
Seems my worries were justified. Another shedhalf at home. Stoke's in total control of this game. Kenny's giving further proof he's no more the right man or this club than Roy. How the fcku can he play mediocre-low-on-confidence-under-performing-Henderson and Downing out of position in one of the most fcukedup formations I've ever seen a Liverpool side field (been watching us regurarly since the late 70's). As per usual it's a fricking miracle if we manage to get one player into their box. I bet Pulis and his lads are larfing their arses off at half time at how immobile, ignorant, untalented and unimaginative we are. And who can blame them. We're so poor it's unbelieveable really.

We're gonna get 1 point in this game, tops.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 14, 2012, 04:50:52 PM
5 minutes to go - and i have to leave for the city.

i hold up my white hanky in surrender, Martin.

even friggen Stoke at Anfield, is seemingly beyond Kenny and his billions.

my bloddy cat has more tactical nuance than this guy.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 14, 2012, 04:52:51 PM
out the door here....back later.

but please please tell me that there were at least some disgruntled among the brainwashed at the final whistle.

there were some boos, right?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 14, 2012, 05:18:12 PM
Was too upset to hear any boos. 1 year and + 110 millions spent and this is what you get? Enough already I say. The man doesn't know footy and it is a crime against the history of this club he's allowed to run it for nostalgic reasons only.

It goes someway to show how far off it all he really is when an armchair fan like myself game in and game out with surgical precision can predict the outcome.

Why play 3-5-2 when you don't have material to do so? I'm lost for words at how crap we are under Kenny and can only hope Henry et.al. have the guts to do what's best for the club, not what nostalgic and non-secular fans want. KENNY OUT!!!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 15, 2012, 11:27:48 AM
yes, Kenny needs to be shown the door.

it's embarrassing watching his lack of expertise at this level.

comolli and caroll should join him out the door.

and if the key political operators within the dressing room have an issue, I'd kick them out the door in a heartbeat too.  They have about as much footballing intelligence between their ears as my cat does.  Hell, my cat is a rocket scientist in comparison. 


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 15, 2012, 12:14:39 PM
This is part of a report from a Liverpool v Stoke game played on 20 Sept 2008...

The Reds played out a nil nil draw against a very negative Stoke City side and were left to reflect on a goal that should have been but wasn't in the second minute of the match. A Steven Gerrard free kick was fired in from the left side and avoided everyone to hit the back of the net but for a reason only known to the officials the goal was disallowed and we then had to endure one way traffic with little invention from the Reds.

It was one of them games which you get every season against a promoted side in particular where they turn up for a point or at worst damage limitation and say you beat us. The frustrating thing is that we still have no clue how to beat these types of team. We still lack that little invention, that ball they're not expecting or simply the idea of packing the box with any more of those defenders that otherwise have taken up residence on the deck chair they have at the back.


Sound familiar? Except then of course the manager was one Rafa Benitez who had been manager for over 4 years.

And here was the team that day...
Reina, Arbeloa Skrtel, Carragher, Dossena, Alonso, Gerrard, Kuyt, Riera (Babel ), Keane (Benayoun ), Torres

A lot more talent than that on the field yesterday yet LFC couldn't break them down. I imagine the cries for the sacking of Benitez as a foreigner who didn't understand the English game would have been considerable by some on these pages. Then again...  ::)

Football isn't an exact science. That's what makes it fascinating but also makes it frustrating. I'm no happier than others here about yesterday's result but calls for the manager to resign / be sacked are premature.

If we make it through to the Carling Cup Final will anyone condemn the 2nd half tactics at the Etihad on Wednesday? I doubt it. The result is everything and sometimes the tactics aren't pretty. But the result is remembered long after the tactics are forgotten.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 15, 2012, 12:38:09 PM
To change the manager mid-season, other than under last season's circumstances, tends to bring more instability and problems, than it solves.

For me, the time is at the end of the season. The decision can be made prior to the end of the season so that the new man can be sounded out and a replacement can be made as soon as the season finishes, giving the new man maximum time to make the decisions that need to be made and action them.

The simple question is: Who is available at the moment to take over?

Short term appointments don't work.

I imagine FSG will review things (and will be looking at things and making decisions on an ongoing basis) at the end of the season and some hard questions will be asked.

Ignoring all the individuals involved (as this tends to skew things), has the £100M+ that's been spent in the last 13 months been spent wisely, given us value for money and actually taken us forward in terms of results and style of play? An honest answer needs to be given (as I said ignoring the individuals involved).

Do we see the players purchased all coming good, given a season to bed in, or will it be more of the same next season? 

Good to see you back posting, Ray.

We all hold differing opinions on all aspects concerning our club. However, that's all they are, opinions, personal views. They count for nothing and are meaningless within the bigger picture.
And I don't think there's any doubting that all of us love the club and want to see us back at the top of pile and it's the strength of those emotions involved that show themselves in what we all post.

Let's all remember we're all part of the same family and we all want the same things. We're all red brothers and sisters so let's respect each other's opinions and the right to hold them (whatever they may be).
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 15, 2012, 01:11:23 PM
This is part of a report from a Liverpool v Stoke game played on 20 Sept 2008...

The Reds played out a nil nil draw against a very negative Stoke City side and were left to reflect on a goal that should have been but wasn't in the second minute of the match. A Steven Gerrard free kick was fired in from the left side and avoided everyone to hit the back of the net but for a reason only known to the officials the goal was disallowed and we then had to endure one way traffic with little invention from the Reds.

It was one of them games which you get every season against a promoted side in particular where they turn up for a point or at worst damage limitation and say you beat us. The frustrating thing is that we still have no clue how to beat these types of team. We still lack that little invention, that ball they're not expecting or simply the idea of packing the box with any more of those defenders that otherwise have taken up residence on the deck chair they have at the back.


Sound familiar? Except then of course the manager was one Rafa Benitez who had been manager for over 4 years.

And here was the team that day...
Reina, Arbeloa Skrtel, Carragher, Dossena, Alonso, Gerrard, Kuyt, Riera (Babel ), Keane (Benayoun ), Torres

A lot more talent than that on the field yesterday yet LFC couldn't break them down.

hang on a cotton-pickin second.

are you saying that the 112 million quid that Kenny has spent in the past year, has resulted in the club now having less talent on the pitch than Rafa had 3 and a half years ago?

That's a helluva an admission, Ray.




Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 15, 2012, 01:35:53 PM
Tes, good post and I pretty much agree with it all. Now is not the time to be issuing P45s. The owners stated 4th was the target but what we don't know is whether that was the minimum acceptable for Kenny to keep his job. We should know by the end of May.

I have no objections to people voicing their opinions. of course I don't. But what does become tiresome is the same line being rolled out time and time again. There's no need. We know how certain people feel about certain things.

Dude, 3-4 of those players have had less than one season but already you've condemned them as unfit. May I remind you that Alonso had one, possibly two seasons where he underperformed and that's why Rafa looked at Barry.

The £112M means nothing to me. It's not my money. And yes, my point was that even with more talented players Rafa still couldn't break Stoke down. Were you criticising him and his tactics then? I suspect you would blame the players but not the manager. But now, you blame everyone but especially Kenny. Weren't you one who often said you get nowhere by changing managers every 5 minutes? Personally my mind is neutral on him because I saw us play some wonderful football last season and this. Sometimes he gets tactics wrong (like yesterday) but doesn't seem to get plaudits when he gets them right.

The market place is a real lottery. Who else considered Ba when Newcastle were looking at him? All those managers missed a trick. Or did they? Maybe he looks good because he fits into Newcastle's style of play. Take him elsewhere and he may become very ordinary. That's the risk you take.

All is not lost yet and I will always keep a positive attitude towards my club whether it's realistic or not. Form and confidence are fickle creatures and can change just like that.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 15, 2012, 01:46:09 PM
To change the manager mid-season, other than under last season's circumstances, tends to bring more instability and problems, than it solves.

For me, the time is at the end of the season. The decision can be made prior to the end of the season so that the new man can be sounded out and a replacement can be made as soon as the season finishes, giving the new man maximum time to make the decisions that need to be made and action them.

The simple question is: Who is available at the moment to take over?

Short term appointments don't work.

Agreed changing things right now will probably not be for the best in the short or the long run. However, and as I've been saying on here a few times before, in about 6-7 weeks things will start to klick and we'll go on a helluva run during the spring. This always happen when we're out of the race for 4th or *cough* the title. The problem is that fans and the directors will base their decisions on that final quarter of the season, not the 3 quarters where we were shiite. That's why I think it is important to keep reminding people Kenny's been one of our finest servants but isn't up to it.

As to who should come in. As far back as the days of Houllier I've had this naive and romantic dream a fairly young (35-45 years) manager could come in with a vision about what way this club should go in the future. The one thing I don't want to see is a scientifically driven manager. It doesn't work. I want somebody in the Shankly or, dare I say, Fergie mould with an idea what it takes to be a Liverpool player, with an idea what's required to be a Liverpool player in terms of quality of crosses, passes, shots, movement etc. In short, a manager who thinks establishing a winning culture/atmosphere/environment is the most important thing of all. A manager with both heart and brain.

This in turn maks it important the directors of the club have at least some idea what they want this club to be.

In short my point is the job behind the curtains finding a new manager should begin now and Kenny should be released of his duties come May. I'm not sure of the extent the damages wasting 112 million has done in terms of ability to building a new side. I personally believe they're quite severe as we would struggle to recoup a third of that money. Also, missing out on the CL for a third year running means we'll have to rethink completely what kind of players we can attract and thus build a new side around.

I think it'll get worse before it gets better unfortunately and I think we'l spend most of the 2010's in the 5-8 bracket. It's the result of the mismanagement of this club for over a decade starting with GH. IMHO, the directors must now focus on forking out a strategy for the long term and appoint a manager in conjunction with that strategy. We've tried the quick fix solutions for over a decade and the only thing it did (apart from a fantastic night in Istanbul and dito afternoon in Cardiff), was to see us well and truly ferked off our perch.

All this in Swenglish.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 15, 2012, 03:52:32 PM
Was watching the game yesterday and Stevie G
runs half the length of the pitch to stop a ball going
out of play...

Traps it beautifully, half a foot from the touchline with
a nice piece of technique!

Turns around, proceeds to look up and immediately attempt
to play the most impossible of the (who knows 10 or so)
options available to him, a hollywood pass to a (presumably short,
'cos Carroll wasn't on, as far as I remember) player up the
far end of the pitch who was being marshalled by 2 or 3
Stoke defenders.

Possession given straight back to Stoke! Duh!

It's so dumb, race half the length of the pitch to keep possession
and the ball in play only to give it straight back.

Ego triumphing over basic footballing logic, represents everything
that drives me nuts about Gerrard and is imo one of the reasons
why we get these stupid home draws. All fancy intricate play full
of oohs and ahs with no end product when all it takes is 1 well executed
corner to dispatch most of these teams!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 15, 2012, 05:28:44 PM
The market place is a real lottery. Who else considered Ba when Newcastle were looking at him? All those managers missed a trick. Or did they? Maybe he looks good because he fits into Newcastle's style of play. Take him elsewhere and he may become very ordinary. That's the risk you take.

All is not lost yet and I will always keep a positive attitude towards my club whether it's realistic or not. Form and confidence are fickle creatures and can change just like that.

Ray, the problem with Ba is his knees. He's failed multiple medicals because of them and I've also read on more than one occasion that there are severe problems with clubs getting insurance on him because they are so potentially bad. West Ham took the chance on a loan move and the Barcodes on a free transfer.
He's pretty much scored wherever he's been, but I understand and agree with the example and point you were making .
We 'stole' Hyypia from Willem II when no one else was looking at him.

It's a great point about form and confidence, both so crucial, yet both so fragile.
I think this has to be looked at more when purchasing players, both their ability to bounce back from dips in either or both, but also it underlines a much bigger issue and is part of it and that is of the player's ability to cope mentally with playing at a club like ours, under both the weight of hope and expectation and also the amount of media focus on the club. And therefore their ability to maintain form and confidence under those conditions.

I think the above can be levelled at both Caroll and Downing, Downing in particular, who has arguably been more disappointing, considering his years in the Premier Leage and his international experience, neither of which Caroll had.

It also goes to show that having Premiership experience is a lazy reason to think that a player is suitable or will have fewer problems than one from abroad.
Enrique has fitted in perfectly and he has PL experience like Downing, but more importantly appears to have the mentality to cope with playing for a big club, but there are plenty of foreign players and especially those who could be labelled 'too small to cope', another lazy judgement (it's football, not Greco Roman wrestling), who have taken to the league with no problems.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 15, 2012, 05:50:31 PM
The players are now starting to voice their frustrations:

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/7433997/ (http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/7433997/)

http://www.soccerway.com/news/2012/January/15/enrique-annoyed-by-lack-of-firepower/ (http://www.soccerway.com/news/2012/January/15/enrique-annoyed-by-lack-of-firepower/)



Whether it's a goalscoring creative player or an out and out striker, we need something and the lack of goals throughout the team as a whole has to be addressed during the Summer.

Incidentally, and this is not a dig at Dalglish, but it was one of the criticisms level at what Dalglish did to the Newcastle team that included Ginola, Ferdinand and Asprilla, when replacing them with Jon Dahl Tomasson, Temuri Ketsbaia, Andreas Andersson and Des Hamilton and the struggle for goals throughout the '97/'98 season.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 15, 2012, 06:19:00 PM
Ego triumphing over basic footballing logic, represents everything that drives me nuts about Gerrard and is imo one of the reasons why we get these stupid home draws.

Some might say playing a 3-4-2-1 formation which most of the players probably never played at all might have something to do with it. I would also say that I agree with you on Gerrard, but I reckon if you want the upside of him I suppose you have to take the flipside as well.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 15, 2012, 06:51:02 PM
Tes,

I'd forgotten about Ba's knees. Maybe he's a one-season wonder. If someone does come in for him they could get their fingers burnt. Just as long as it's not us!

Take to Newcastle imports - Enrique and Carroll. Both excelled for their club in the same season. One significance difference perhaps. Enrique was looking for a move whereas Carroll wasn't. Maybe he just isn't a big club player despite an England turnout.

Downing is a disappointment given Villa aren't exactly a small club and he's played for England. A winger who often comes inside when he should be delivering crosses. Before the season started the journos were saying how well Carroll would do now that Liverpool had some width and someone who could cross the ball!

Just shows how difficult it is to find the right players!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 15, 2012, 07:15:57 PM
I have no objections to people voicing their opinions. of course I don't. But what does become tiresome is the same line being rolled out time and time again. There's no need. We know how certain people feel about certain things.

Dude, 3-4 of those players have had less than one season but already you've condemned them as unfit. May I remind you that Alonso had one, possibly two seasons where he underperformed and that's why Rafa looked at Barry.

The £112M means nothing to me. It's not my money. And yes, my point was that even with more talented players Rafa still couldn't break Stoke down. Were you criticising him and his tactics then? I suspect you would blame the players but not the manager. But now, you blame everyone but especially Kenny. Weren't you one who often said you get nowhere by changing managers every 5 minutes? Personally my mind is neutral on him because I saw us play some wonderful football last season and this. Sometimes he gets tactics wrong (like yesterday) but doesn't seem to get plaudits when he gets them right.

yes, I said don't change managers every 5 minutes.

But when you keep appointing lemons, you are going to see their limitations very quickly.

What you do, is you appoint a top man and you give him the time and the resources to do the job.  You don't appoint lemons, nor do you necessarily listen to populist opinion (most football fans couldn't tell their ar.se from their elbow). 

Rafa should never have been sacked.  I always said that.  I was a massive fan of the man who had us playing superbly balanced football, who had us in two CL finals, and who had us regularly qualifying for the CL each year.....and all this despite having relative peanuts to spend 

But no, that wasn't good enough for the football fu.kwits.  They had to have Rafa sacked.  They had to have change.  They had to have an english manager (and how bad was Roy).....then they had to have Kenny.  And now those same people are too full of themselves to hold up their hand and admit they got it wrong. 

And you do not even realise the significance of what you are admitting - when you say Rafa had more talented players, than what Kenny has right now.  112 million quid spent in a year, and you astonishingly admit that we now have less talent at Anfield....and yet bizarrely you conclude that Kenny has your full support. 

It's like you saying that the sun is going down in the sky; and then concluding that it's sunrise.  Your conclusions totally contradict your findings.

And as for you saying: "The £112M means nothing to me. It's not my money."  Well that is a truly bizarre thing to say.  A club that was very close to recently going in to administration, and you reckon throwing away 112 million quid is irrelevant. 

Hicks and Gillett had a similar perspective regarding others money.




Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 15, 2012, 07:36:50 PM
Was watching the game yesterday and Stevie G
runs half the length of the pitch to stop a ball going
out of play...

Traps it beautifully, half a foot from the touchline with
a nice piece of technique!

Turns around, proceeds to look up and immediately attempt
to play the most impossible of the (who knows 10 or so)
options available to him, a hollywood pass to a (presumably short,
'cos Carroll wasn't on, as far as I remember) player up the
far end of the pitch who was being marshalled by 2 or 3
Stoke defenders.

Possession given straight back to Stoke! Duh!

It's so dumb, race half the length of the pitch to keep possession
and the ball in play only to give it straight back.

Ego triumphing over basic footballing logic, represents everything
that drives me nuts about Gerrard and is imo one of the reasons
why we get these stupid home draws. All fancy intricate play full
of oohs and ahs with no end product when all it takes is 1 well executed
corner to dispatch most of these teams!

it's been the story of his career, Ed. 

he plays for himself and his own ego.  Useless as a member of a team.

And it's impossible to play with that type of player.  We had a lad Kevin, in and around our squad (team I played in and managed for many years).....same issue.  Awesome strength on the ball, awesome engine, stamina and skill......but as a team player, absolutely useless.....it was always about me, me, me......he could run the length of the pitch and score, but the problem was nobody could predict what he was going to do, or how to play alongside him. 

It always amazed me, that nobody in charge of things at Anfield, ever had the mental strength to pull Captain Marvel up on these very obvious shortcomings.  Ok, I know the tv studio pundits are all brainless muppets, who tow the usual media line every time a mic is near them.  But one would expect such flaws to have been addressed with the lad when he was in his teens.

There's a very good friggen reason why nobody can play alongside him, either with england or liverpool.




Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 15, 2012, 08:49:28 PM
yes, I said don't change managers every 5 minutes. But when you keep appointing lemons, you are going to see their limitations very quickly.
Then you're contradicting yourself dude. He's only a lemon in the eyes of a minority. If you used that rule Ferguson wouldn't have stayed at Utd 7 years before winning his first title.

Quote
What you do, is you appoint a top man and you give him the time and the resources to do the job.  You don't appoint lemons, nor do you necessarily listen to populist opinion (most football fans couldn't tell their ar.se from their elbow). 
How easy you make it sound. Top managers aren't ten-a-penny. AVB - a supposed target  for us - has been defeated twice this season at home by a supposed lemon. So who's the lemon?

Quote
Rafa should never have been sacked.  I always said that.  I was a massive fan of the man who had us playing superbly balanced football, who had us in two CL finals, and who had us regularly qualifying for the CL each year.....and all this despite having relative peanuts to spend
I like Rafa but he couldn't get us the title because his football was too cautious. The few times he let the team play with freedom we defeated Utd and Madrid but that was totally against his nature. And whilst he bought some good players he also bought some real duffers and bought a crocked midfielder when we were screaming out for another striker. Yes, he was excellent in European tactics but not domestic.

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But no, that wasn't good enough for the football fu.kwits.  They had to have Rafa sacked.  They had to have change.  They had to have an english manager (and how bad was Roy).....then they had to have Kenny.  And now those same people are too full of themselves to hold up their hand and admit they got it wrong.
Were you blind to the fact that he was too political and got himself sacked? Who else has spoken like he did about Ferguson? His judgement was clouded by his dislike of the man. I don't remember the press demanding the club apoint an English manager. Why would they? I think you're loyalty to Rafa is clouding your judgement.

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And you do not even realise the significance of what you are admitting - when you say Rafa had more talented players, than what Kenny has right now.  112 million quid spent in a year, and you astonishingly admit that we now have less talent at Anfield....and yet bizarrely you conclude that Kenny has your full support.
That team was constructed over 3 seasons. Kenny's is over one. Come back in 2 years if Kenny is still manager and we can make a fairer comparison. And yes, he does have my full support as every other manager has until it's clear they're not fit for the job. Roy's limitation became apparent very quickly but I don't see Kenny as a liability at present.

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It's like you saying that the sun is going down in the sky; and then concluding that it's sunrise.  Your conclusions totally contradict your findings.
You are also guilty of contradicting yourself when you admit success requires mangerial stability and then call for him to be sacked one year in.

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And as for you saying: "The £112M means nothing to me. It's not my money."  Well that is a truly bizarre thing to say.  A club that was very close to recently going in to administration, and you reckon throwing away 112 million quid is irrelevant. 

Hicks and Gillett had a similar perspective regarding others money.

The big difference is that was the owners money. They didn't borrow it against the club unlike H&G. And it wasn't £112M, it was £54M. £50M for Torres and £8M for Babel reduced the gross spend.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 15, 2012, 09:22:20 PM
I like Rafa but he couldn't get us the title because his football was too cautious. The few times he let the team play with freedom we defeated Utd and Madrid but that was totally against his nature. And whilst he bought some good players he also bought some real duffers and bought a crocked midfielder when we were screaming out for another striker. Yes, he was excellent in European tactics but not domestic.

Were you blind to the fact that he was too political and got himself sacked? Who else has spoken like he did about Ferguson? His judgement was clouded by his dislike of the man.

I totally disagree with everything you're saying, Ray.

I picked out just one or two aspects above, in the quote.

You're sh.itting on Rafa for disliking Fergie?  Bloddy ell, though we may all respect what he has achieved, Fergie is disliked passionately by many across the football world.  He's a great football man, but as a human being, he's not particularly well liked.  And you blame Rafa for not liking him, and standing up for our club when Fergie has a go at us?  Bizarre.   If only a few more people had the courage to take Fergie on, we might see a lot more fair play among the FA and their officialdom.

And you claim Rafa played football that was too cautious.  Have you ever watched Valencia?  Have you ever watched us take on England and Europe's finest club sides under Rafa?  Have you ever seen Rafa with access to the very finest talents?  No, we never had the money to spend.  We had a net spend each season of around 16 to 17 million quid.     To compete as well as he did, was close on a miracle.  His sides were well-balanced.  Indeed, that is always the trick.   But many fans think  that our dominant era was always one of hammering the opposition 5-nil each week.  FFS It was often hard fought 1-0 wins (not unlike how United grind out title victories every season, during the run-in between February and May).

Well, you won't need to worry about top class European football anytime soon, nor competing for the Premiership.  You got your wish.  Rafa, our finest manager since the great Bob Paisley, was sacked.  Mediocrity was installed in the dugout.  You got what you wanted.  Enjoy your victory for melancholy and the past.  The battle for common sense, and objectivity, has long since been lost.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 15, 2012, 10:05:44 PM
it's been the story of his career, Ed. 

he plays for himself and his own ego.  Useless as a member of a team.

And it's impossible to play with that type of player.  We had a lad Kevin, in and around our squad (team I played in and managed for many years).....same issue.  Awesome strength on the ball, awesome engine, stamina and skill......but as a team player, absolutely useless.....it was always about me, me, me......he could run the length of the pitch and score, but the problem was nobody could predict what he was going to do, or how to play alongside him. 

It always amazed me, that nobody in charge of things at Anfield, ever had the mental strength to pull Captain Marvel up on these very obvious shortcomings.  Ok, I know the tv studio pundits are all brainless muppets, who tow the usual media line every time a mic is near them.  But one would expect such flaws to have been addressed with the lad when he was in his teens.

There's a very good friggen reason why nobody can play alongside him, either with england or liverpool.





LOL, amid all the talk of him being the greatest player we ever had
last week and (ok, bit cynical here  :D) him pulling out all the stops turn
of year to secure his lucrative new contract....and then he has no answers
against Stoke!

imo, some teams (STOKE!) just need to be beaten by sheer bloody
mindedness and a determination to get 3 points at all costs, doesn't
matter who's backside the ball goes in off 7 minutes in to stoppage time....

This, imo, is the problem with Stevie G in the league, he doesn't understand
this. Tbh, in all my days watching him play, I cannot remember him ever scoring
a crap goal, almost as if the idea is alien to him.

Did he leave the pitch yesterday feeling he'd done enough, is he beating himself
up about his contribution today, wondering why the f.uck he had to shoot from
40 yards out (he's probably just upset it didn't go in).

Anyway, Gerrard rant over for another while...Great cup player forever destined
when his career finishes to wake up every morning and wonder why he never
captained us to the title!

but I reckon if you want the upside of him I suppose you have to take the flipside as well.
Agreed!

& I'd also add there are a lot of other players in that side who need (in the words of
Roy Keane) to buck up their ideas if they think our current performance in the league
is acceptable.

What has been glossed over in some quarters is Gerrard last week talking about the return
leg of the Carling cup semi-final the way i remember him talking about playing Chelsea in the
semi-final of the Champions league a few seasons back. It's the league Stupid!
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 15, 2012, 10:43:49 PM
Dude, I see no point taking this discussion any further. Clearly we are diametrically opposed in our views on the running of the club, its management, captain's capabilities and team members.

If I find anything else of interest to discuss with this small group then I will join in. But new members are rare. It seems this is not a place many want to share their thoughts.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 15, 2012, 10:47:07 PM
I totally disagree with everything you're saying, Ray.

I picked out just one or two aspects above, in the quote.

You're sh.itting on Rafa for disliking Fergie?  Bloddy ell, though we may all respect what he has achieved, Fergie is disliked passionately by many across the football world.  He's a great football man, but as a human being, he's not particularly well liked.  And you blame Rafa for not liking him, and standing up for our club when Fergie has a go at us?  Bizarre.   If only a few more people had the courage to take Fergie on, we might see a lot more fair play among the FA and their officialdom.

And you claim Rafa played football that was too cautious.  Have you ever watched Valencia?  Have you ever watched us take on England and Europe's finest club sides under Rafa?  Have you ever seen Rafa with access to the very finest talents?  No, we never had the money to spend.  We had a net spend each season of around 16 to 17 million quid.     To compete as well as he did, was close on a miracle.  His sides were well-balanced.  Indeed, that is always the trick.   But many fans think  that our dominant era was always one of hammering the opposition 5-nil each week.  FFS It was often hard fought 1-0 wins (not unlike how United grind out title victories every season, during the run-in between February and May).

Well, you won't need to worry about top class European football anytime soon, nor competing for the Premiership.  You got your wish.  Rafa, our finest manager since the great Bob Paisley, was sacked.  Mediocrity was installed in the dugout.  You got what you wanted.  Enjoy your victory for melancholy and the past.  The battle for common sense, and objectivity, has long since been lost.

I respect your loyalty to the man but can't you see he was too cautios, too stubborn in proving the sun is actually spinning around the world, that he drained the team and the squad of whatever passion they ever had? Did you actually feel he realised what it took to win a game in the PL? Wasn't his tinkering ever a problem to you? Or that he time and agains fielded weak sides against "lesser" teams ahead of CL-games with the invevitable outcome we dropped points thereby losing pace in the hunt for no. 19? Didn't he buy and sell som 80 players during his years? Were they all for free? Was it G & H to told him to do the Fergie-rant? Had he no responsibility for the Parry row and how it panned out? Wasn't it obvious he was so authoritarian that when he needed the players to turn up for him noone did? I could go on but will take rejoice from the fact he wasn't allowed to do more damage to this club than he already did. For all the shiite G & H brought on this club that one they got right. That night in Istanbul got to his head, it just took 2 and a half years for it to show.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 15, 2012, 10:48:25 PM
Dude, I see no point taking this discussion any further. Clearly we are diametrically opposed in our views on the running of the club, its management, captain's capabilities and team members.

If I find anything else of interest to discuss with this small group then I will join in. But new members are rare. It seems this is not a place many want to share their thoughts.

That may be so but that's one of the reasons I keep coming here. I'd rather chat with 7 or 8 sane people than dozens of non-historical fans.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 15, 2012, 10:49:31 PM
Dude, I see no point taking this discussion any further. Clearly we are diametrically opposed in our views on the running of the club, its management, captain's capabilities and team members.

If I find anything else of interest to discuss with this small group then I will join in. But new members are rare. It seems this is not a place many want to share their thoughts.

Ray, I realise we have the odd spat on here, but take a look for a week or so at somewhere like TLW (The Liverpool Way) or RAWK where you get banned for not following the party line, or TIA (This Is Anfield) where most of them seem to understand less about football than Henry & Co. 

We may be small, but we're as perfectly formed as you'll get on the forums.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 15, 2012, 10:55:22 PM
Tes / Martin,

I understand where you're coming from but I really don't want to have a discussion with someone who has the opposite opinion to me on so many aspects of the club. I don't need to visit this place for that. I can go into the offfice tomorrow and talk to a load of Manure supporters. I would have hoped for a few more like-minded people here. I don't visit any other LFC-related forums. There's too much to do in life.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Martinmarx on January 15, 2012, 11:05:47 PM
Tes / Martin,

I understand where you're coming from but I really don't want to have a discussion with someone who has the opposite opinion to me on so many aspects of the club. I don't need to visit this place for that. I can go into the offfice tomorrow and talk to a load of Manure supporters. I would have hoped for a few more like-minded people here. I don't visit any other LFC-related forums. There's too much to do in life.

But from an outside view it seems your row is more about the perception of a former manager than the club per se, not? I know I come across as a negative SOB but want nothing more than a club to be proud of. It hurts a lot to admit there's not a lot to be proud of at the moment. We're prisoners of our own history thinking we're a topside by some some sort of divine law. I don't demand the title, hell, I don't even demand 4th but I do demand that signings, formations and team selections is made to maximize the clubs probability to pick up full points.  I think our current manager (and the one before him, and the one before him and the one before him) failed on two or more of those critera.

We need to accept we need to do much more than just building a team here. The club need, more than ever I dare say, a new identity that encapsulates the "Liverpool way" of yesteryears with the conditions of contemporary society and footy. It won't be done lightly but nostalgia and romanticism won't help us further that's for sure. Hope you chose to stay, I'd appreciate it a lot.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 15, 2012, 11:15:35 PM
Hope you chose to stay, I'd appreciate it a lot.

Snap. Ray, you've been outvoted 2-1, you're staying.  :D   
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 15, 2012, 11:21:50 PM
LOL! I'm humbled. Okay, I'll hang around but you have to play nice.  ;D

In the meantime I have a quiz for you. Name a living manager who has won the English league title (in its various guises) with more than one club.

Answer tomorrow. Clue, there's only one.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 15, 2012, 11:38:00 PM
LOL! I'm humbled. Okay, I'll hang around but you have to play nice.  ;D

In the meantime I have a quiz for you. Name a living manager who has won the English league title (in its various guises) with more than one club.

Answer tomorrow. Clue, there's only one.

The same one who blew £35M on Andy Carroll.  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 15, 2012, 11:42:54 PM
The same one who blew £35M on Andy Carroll.  ;D
Okay, I'll ignore the obvious wind-up.  :D Doesn't that tell you something? If he can win it with two different teams he must have greater skills than he's getting credit for here. The only other one in the second half of the 20th century was Brian Clough. That's how hard it is.

Here's another question for you. Do you believe we would have offered NUFC £35M for Carroll if we hadn't just been paid £50M for Torres? If you reply yes the men in white coats will be along shortly. I'm off to bed.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 15, 2012, 11:48:52 PM
Here's another question for you. Do you believe we would have offered NUFC £35M for Carroll if we hadn't just been paid £50M for Torres? If you reply yes the men in white coats will be along shortly. I'm off to bed.

In many ways that makes it worse. We don't see £50M very often so to spend it in that way seems rather negligent.

He's another question. Why, when we didn't have a permanent manager was Comolli or Dalglish allowed to spend so much on one player, and also on the type of player that totally dictates your whole style of play?
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 16, 2012, 12:07:08 AM
Tes / Martin,

I understand where you're coming from but I really don't want to have a discussion with someone who has the opposite opinion to me on so many aspects of the club. I don't need to visit this place for that. I can go into the offfice tomorrow and talk to a load of Manure supporters. I would have hoped for a few more like-minded people here. I don't visit any other LFC-related forums. There's too much to do in life.

no, you want to impose your views on others.  I let it slide earlier this season.  But I am not letting you off with it this time round.

go visit a few other forums and you'll find a broad range of opinions.  This place is like a monastery compared to the wars going on in other places.

if you don't want to listen/hear the views, and interact, with others, then I suggest you forget about online forums.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 16, 2012, 12:25:17 AM
Dude, I see no point taking this discussion any further. Clearly we are diametrically opposed in our views on the running of the club, its management, captain's capabilities and team members.

If I find anything else of interest to discuss with this small group then I will join in. But new members are rare. It seems this is not a place many want to share their thoughts.

Ray, believe me, if you don't like it in here, you will absolutely hate it (with a passion) in other forums. 

I have chatted in all the big forums, for 15 plus years.  Heck, if you go back and include usenet, I have been chatting in Liverpool forums for near 20 years.  You ought to see the ferocity in those places.  And over the years, the owners/moderators become Hitlers and ban people for the most frivolous of reasons.  This small forum is heaven in comparison. 

I could tell you some stories, about other places, that would make you wince.

In all the big forums, you eventually (well, a significant majority of regulars) end up getting banned.  A red card will always come your way, sooner or later.

We may not agree on anything about the club.  But you're still welcome to come visit and drink beers in paradise. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 16, 2012, 01:06:50 AM
LOL, amid all the talk of him being the greatest player we ever had
last week and (ok, bit cynical here  :D ) him pulling out all the stops turn
of year to secure his lucrative new contract....and then he has no answers
against Stoke!
Did he leave the pitch yesterday feeling he'd done enough, is he beating himself
up about his contribution today, wondering why the f.uck he had to shoot from
40 yards out (he's probably just upset it didn't go in).

 :)

oh I know.

ask yourself, how many times do truly world class players, like Messi or Maradona, come up short against the likes of a Stoke?

because Gerrard is english, the media build him into something that he is not.

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 16, 2012, 05:51:12 PM
no, you want to impose your views on others.  I let it slide earlier this season.  But I am not letting you off with it this time round.
Oooh, I'm scared. On the contrary I think it's you that is imposing your views on us. Your repeated negative opinion of Gerrard, praising Rafa but ignoring his shortcomings and demanding the sacking of our current manager have been made time and time again. We get it. There's no need to hammer the point home.

Quote
go visit a few other forums and you'll find a broad range of opinions.  This place is like a monastery compared to the wars going on in other places. if you don't want to listen/hear the views, and interact, with others, then I suggest you forget about online forums.

I have more important things to do. I don't have a problem listening and responding to others' views but I don't see the point of repeating your opinions when they're well known by all who visit this place.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on January 16, 2012, 08:07:42 PM
One of the reasons i like this forum is because there are viewpoints diametrically opposed to each other...
if we all sing from one hymn sheet it would get very dull indeed...
we're all passionate about one thing...Liverpool football club
sometimes we get angry or happy at different results...and when we play well we can glory in it and when we play badly then we can criticize...we have had some good times this season and some very disappointing ones...most of us thought that we were in the mix for fourth at the start of the season and when we beat manure, chelski, arsenal and man city we obviously look at the likes of stoke, norwich et al as there for the taking...that we don't then requires us too look at why we didn't beat them and then that is fair game...

On the positive side we have seen a very solid defense form ...
Enrique and Bellamy were the cheapest players and the best buys...
Adam (also cheap) will always be a good squad player...
Henderson could be an eventual excellent buy, but should not have been played every game as he also has much to learn...
Downing has been pretty lacklustre and for some reason plays nearly every game...
Carroll who couldn't get a game at the start of the season now has a unique chance to show what he can do...why he didn't play against stoke is odd to say the least...carroll should play all the games where suarez is banned and try to make it difficult for kenny to chose when suarez comes back...that he isn't picked doesn't say much for his future...to play kuyt instead after being ignored for much of the season can't be good for confidence for both players (carroll for not being picked and kuyt for not being able to have an effect on the game due to rustiness/lack of confidence etc)...

on the negative side of that Maxi has been criminally underused this season as has Kuyt (which has seriously affected his form - though he can still get in the number 2 rated in the world Holland squad)...
we sold meireles cos he wanted more than 40k wages (fair enough that he wanted more money considering how good he was and that we're paying cole 110k!)...
we're pretty pathetic infront of goal...

We need a better midfield..a creative midfielder at the very least...
We need a goal poacher...how many times have crosses gone in and no one has been even close to sticking it in the net...
We need a serious chunk of luck but luck can be created if you play a balanced team...then luck falls in place...just look at manure and how spawny they are...

We're close to the precipice or glory...there is a very fine divide...and only one person can get that right...if he adapts and learns then any criticism can fall silent...
if however he continues the negatives above then come the end of the season and we haven't made progress then questions will be asked...and more importantly they should be asked..
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Tes on January 16, 2012, 08:15:25 PM
High above the Grand Canyon on a cheese wire, Barticus needs no aids to show perfect balance.

A really enjoyable read, Barticus, that sums things up nicely.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 16, 2012, 08:40:21 PM
Good post Barticus. I know I'm not perfect but I rarely attract the attention of moderators and I do post on several forums for other personal interests.

I've always tried not to worry about things I have no control over. It's pointless, you just give yourself a coronary. That's why I see no point in bashing the manager or players. No-one who has any influence is listening. You might as well scream at the top of your voice in the middle of a desert. The effect on the club is the same.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 17, 2012, 12:09:59 AM
On the contrary I think it's you that is imposing your views on us. Your repeated negative opinion of Gerrard, praising Rafa but ignoring his shortcomings and demanding the sacking of our current manager have been made time and time again. We get it. There's no need to hammer the point home.

I have more important things to do. I don't have a problem listening and responding to others' views but I don't see the point of repeating your opinions when they're well known by all who visit this place.

who the hell is this royal WE and the US that you refer to?  Each one of us speaks for ourselves. 

Ironically, I don't see anyone else who holds your perspective in here.   I am not the one who is isolated in here, on all the major issues.  I am not the one who fails to interact/discuss, or is unable to take others views on board.

e.g.  every single regular I see in here (apart from you) is asking serious questions of our manager, and reckons hard questions will have to be asked come the end of the season.   

Only YOU feels that "the £112M (spent) means nothing to me. It's not my money."   What is the point of not wanting to have any view on our transfer activity or budget?   Life in a forum like this would get exceptionally boring, if we ignore all the big issues (like transfer activity) and just spent our time up at the communion table, drinking our wine and scoffing the wafers.

When people reference issues on your Gods, you ignore them (like Ed on Gerrard in the last day or two).  You ignore the aspects referenced (in this case, Gerrard's long dramatic run to keep the ball in play against Stoke, and then the long hollywood ball down the pitch, that as usual went to the opposition).   You'll ignore Ed on the issue, but will typically roll your eyes or target me, if I reference it.   

You'll make up stuff and claim, for example, that I have nothing good to say about Dalglish (or Gerrard).....when all the evidence points to the opposite (e.g. how many times have I said that Dalglish and Souness are my two all-time favourite Liverpool players)  But you always ignore this, when you try and pigeon-hole/taint me.

You'll claim that I worship Rafa and  never acknowledge that he had negatives.  Again, all the evidence points to the opposite.  I often reference Rafa's limitations. 

But then again, I wonder if you truly understand (or appreciate) what forums are about, when you say: "I've always tried not to worry about things I have no control over. It's pointless, you just give yourself a coronary. That's why I see no point in bashing the manager or players. No-one who has any influence is listening. You might as well scream at the top of your voice in the middle of a desert."

Forums are for discussing issues.  They are for the coming together of a wide spectrum of viewpoints.   And yes, YOUR viewpoint is one of those, and it is something that is to be respected.  But just as I respect your view, and your right to say it, you should show some respect for my view. 

And yes, you will always be welcome to come drink beer, and play pool, here in paradise. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 17, 2012, 02:15:49 AM
When people reference issues on your Gods, you ignore them (like Ed on Gerrard in the last day or two).  You ignore the aspects referenced (in this case, Gerrard's long dramatic run to keep the ball in play against Stoke, and then the long hollywood ball down the pitch, that as usual went to the opposition).   You'll ignore Ed on the issue, but will typically roll your eyes or target me, if I reference it.   
LOL, well of course I'm going to pick Stevie G up on that!  :D

I don't flow along with the smooth talking commentator backed up by the ex-player
co-commentator that never have a bad word to say about Stephen.

Get real, he's captain of the side and we've drawn against Stoke at home & aside from skewing
one well wide from 40 yards he indulges in that headless chicken Hollywood chicanery from
the touchline....I just explode with contempt for that kind of Ego-driven brainless bullsh.it.

We want 3 points not picture postcard Roy of the rovers whatever. He should be out there
rolling his sleeves up and driving us on to a result (does anyone remember the young Gerrard when
he came on the scene?). Daniel Agger's the man for that kind of stuff & should imo be captain! Period.

But no, you'll hear this that and the other about what a marvellous, wonderful, inspiring captain
he is. Who gives a monkey's WE WANT TO WIN THE LEAGUE & it starts with getting 3 points at
home! No excuses. 
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: the dude abides on January 17, 2012, 03:28:27 AM
I don't flow along with the smooth talking commentator backed up by the ex-player
co-commentator that never have a bad word to say about Stephen.

Get real, he's captain of the side and we've drawn against Stoke at home & aside from skewing
one well wide from 40 yards he indulges in that headless chicken Hollywood chicanery from
the touchline....I just explode with contempt for that kind of Ego-driven brainless bullsh.it.

We want 3 points not picture postcard Roy of the rovers whatever.

 :D

yes, there was a player/manager some 20 plus years ago, Bryan Hamilton.  From N Ireland.  He played for Ipswich and managed a few teams after he hung up his boots.  But he was infamous (well I picked up on it anyway) for never rocking the boat and sitting on the fence, when he did occasional radio/tv commentaries in the 80s/90s. 

When someone would miss an open goal, or do something daft, rather than say something normal, he would say "the lad will be disappointed with that"  or "he'll feel that he could have done better"   

FFS  "the lad" has maybe missed an open goal, in the final minute of injury time, to win Notts Forest the European Cup.....and he merely will be "disappointed with himself"?????!!!!!!!

And with Sky taking over in the early 90's, these past 20 years have now seen Hamilton'ism as now the normal mode of commentary/punditry.    Whatever you say, say nothing.  Don't say anything controversial.  Don't say anything against the football industry, or those who ply their trade in it.  Don't talk in first party terms, speak in third party terms.   Speak of others possible feelings/emotions, on an issue,  not your own.  And if you have time to fill, speak endlessly of Motson-type-drivel-data, that no sensible person (beyond trainspotters) will have the remotest bit of interest in.

But if you want to remain in this industry, you risk all if you don't play by their rules.    If you don't run with the herd, you are gonna get targetted, as being controversial (and demoted to radio).    Do not dare hold a view, in this modern consumer-driven world of big-business owned sports. 


Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ed on January 17, 2012, 03:28:06 PM
I should probably add that I thought the way he
trapped the ball and fired off a low curler from the
edge of the box against City in the CC was the best
piece of skill I've seen in ages (the speed at which
he did that, incredible!  :o).

Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 17, 2012, 04:36:40 PM
who the hell is this royal WE and the US that you refer to?  Each one of us speaks for ourselves. 
I'll retract the WE because I don't speak for others but the US stands as you post to everyone, not just me.

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Ironically, I don't see anyone else who holds your perspective in here.   I am not the one who is isolated in here, on all the major issues.  I am not the one who fails to interact/discuss, or is unable to take others views on board.
What perspective would that be? That I won't hammer the manager or players for a poor performance? No, I won't because they're human beings and not machines. We make mistakes or make errors of judgement but we're not subject to public scrutiny. I don't see the fact that their performances are broadcast as reason to castigate them when they make a wrong decision. So yes, if I'm the only person here who feels like that then so be it. I see no reason to apologise for that.

I interact when I 1) have time and 2) feel I want to. You can't castigate someone for not interacting as often as others. I feel I'm contributed plenty to this forum and don't feel I have to answer to you.

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e.g.  every single regular I see in here (apart from you) is asking serious questions of our manager, and reckons hard questions will have to be asked come the end of the season.
I'm prepared to give them time. You clearly are not. That doesn't make you right and me wrong. Some of those players have played well in many games but not all. Every club has players like that.

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What is the point of not wanting to have any view on our transfer activity or budget?   Life in a forum like this would get exceptionally boring, if we ignore all the big issues (like transfer activity) and just spent our time up at the communion table, drinking our wine and scoffing the wafers.
I want quality players in and when they do arrive I may post an opinion on them. Or I may not. That's up to me.

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When people reference issues on your Gods, you ignore them (like Ed on Gerrard in the last day or two).  You ignore the aspects referenced (in this case, Gerrard's long dramatic run to keep the ball in play against Stoke, and then the long hollywood ball down the pitch, that as usual went to the opposition).   You'll ignore Ed on the issue, but will typically roll your eyes or target me, if I reference it.
Because Ed isn't banging on about it time and time again. I can't comment on the Stoke game 'cos I didn't see the incident.
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You'll make up stuff and claim, for example, that I have nothing good to say about Dalglish (or Gerrard).....when all the evidence points to the opposite (e.g. how many times have I said that Dalglish and Souness are my two all-time favourite Liverpool players)  But you always ignore this, when you try and pigeon-hole/taint me.
Dalglish as a player is quite different to Dalglish as a manager. You called him a lemon if my memory serves me correct. Yet you say a club needs stability so shouldn't sack a manager if things don't go well immediately. What's Souness got to do with your criticism of Gerrard???

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You'll claim that I worship Rafa and  never acknowledge that he had negatives.  Again, all the evidence points to the opposite.  I often reference Rafa's limitations.
Then why would you want him back? Or perhaps you just didn't want him sacked. I can understand the latter but the former isn't going to happen.

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But then again, I wonder if you truly understand (or appreciate) what forums are about...
You've got a bloody nerve. Of course I know what they're about. I've posted thousands of messages in other forums not related to football and never received comments like I have from you.

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Forums are for discussing issues.  They are for the coming together of a wide spectrum of viewpoints.   And yes, YOUR viewpoint is one of those, and it is something that is to be respected.  But just as I respect your view, and your right to say it, you should show some respect for my view.

I respect your right to say what you think but I do disagree with the frequency you repeat it. It's almost like if you keep saying often enough I'll eventually agree with you. I won't.

I'm going into lurk mode for a while.
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: barticus on January 17, 2012, 08:10:00 PM
High above the Grand Canyon on a cheese wire, Barticus needs no aids to show perfect balance.

A really enjoyable read, Barticus, that sums things up nicely.

Two sides to each story...view each point but enjoy the opposites...through the conviction of people's passion and through the strength of their argument then we can be swayed. That in itself is a true forum and not one for the useless eater sheep...saying baaaahh in a field is not for me and i enjoy the passion of (sometimes) opposed views such as dude and martinmarx in the RED CORNER and in the BLUE CORNER Asi and Juan...
We all are impassioned when it comes to something we really care about...and that's LFC...
I really wouldn't want anything else...
Title: Re: Season 2011 - 2012
Post by: Juan on January 18, 2012, 03:09:34 PM
Here is an article from Paul Tomkins. I dont subscribe to his site so its only a section of the article but you get the gist;

http://tomkinstimes.com/2012/01/why-dalglish-is-doing-a-good-job/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheTomkinsTimes+%28The+Tomkins+Times%29

By Paul Tomkins.

When arguing that Rafa Benítez was doing a good job (and often a very good job), I often observed how wrong it was to expect Liverpool to automatically return to the glory days. Too much had changed between 1991, when Kenny resigned with the Reds reigning champions, and 2004, when Rafa arrived.

Anyone who thought Kenny was going to work miracles has been reminded of his mortality. However, this doesn’t mean that he isn’t doing a good job.

Equally, he’s not doing a flawless job, but being Kenny, there’s a tension where some fans think him beyond criticism and others want to go too far in the other direction (in trying to break this perceived omertà). Stony silence shouldn’t be the case – his record and signings are there to be assessed, like those of any other manager – but equally, he should be judged on the situation he inherited, not the one he left 20 years ago, or the one where we were regular Champions League qualifiers until last season.

This season, in the Premier League at least, he’s doing roughly the same as last season – and considerably better than the man he replaced. He had the natural boost of his reappointment, where everyone was relieved that Hodgson had gone and the King was back; and when that wore off, he had some money to spend in the summer, albeit not without having to prune the wage bill. The injury to Steven Gerrard – who is still not match-fit, as seen against Stoke – and the suspension of Suarez has meant that, with other absentees, he’s yet to even start his strongest side.

Therefore I believe that, overall, he’s doing a good job, if not yet a ‘great’ one.

Dalglish didn’t do too well in the cups last season; an away tie at Manchester United was (not unexpectedly) lost, not least once suffering an iffy penalty and an early red card to Gerrard. The Uefa Cup exit at the hands of eventual finalists Braga was disappointing, mind. Roy Hodgson’s only relative success at Liverpool was in that competition, albeit against mostly substandard opposition in the easier early rounds.

This season, Dalglish has steered Liverpool to League Cup victories over Stoke (away), Chelsea (away) and Manchester City (away), and even though it’s a devalued cup that would not normally be high on our list of priorities, those are never easy games.

While Liverpool’s league home record has been surprisingly poor (albeit whilst still remaining unbeaten), the overall record is still pretty good. It’s heading in the right direction, albeit not at breakneck speed. Playing good football and creating chances hasn’t been a problem, but finishing t