Anfield Road - Liverpool FC Forum

Football and lesser sports => Liverpool FC, football, sport => Topic started by: Juan on August 02, 2012, 06:51:58 PM

Title: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 02, 2012, 06:51:58 PM
And so it starts.........

Team lineup:

Starting XI: Jones ; Johnson, Carragher, Skrtel, Jose Enrique ; Henderson. Spearing, Gerrard ; Cole, Borini, Downing

Subs : Gulacsi, Lucas, Adam, Shelvey, Kelly, Robinson, Sterling.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 02, 2012, 07:00:04 PM
So the brave new era is being brought in by the same 'old' players.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 02, 2012, 08:00:23 PM
So the brave new era is being brought in by the same 'old' players.

Not much change in the first half either im afraid Tes.

To be fair its only our first competitive game of the season. Theres no huge visible difference in our passing and movement from last year yet. The players arent exactly killing themselves to give the players on the ball passing options. We are also still a bit susceptible to launch the ball if we cant immediately see a passing option.

At the back we have been cut open on a few occasions. Well to be honest we are very lucky to be going in level. They have had probably 3 or 4 very good chances.

Cole went off injured after about 20. Good to see Rodgers bring Sterling on to replace him.

We need to improve in the second half if we are to come away with a win.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 02, 2012, 09:02:39 PM
Poor performance but we got the result we needed.

Even though its still pre season Id say Rodgers must be only coming to terms with the size of the task of restoring this clubs fortunes. We have so many average players that are nowhere near good enough to compete with United, City, Chelsea and Arsenal. There is a half decent core of a team there with some very promising younger players but we need to be accommodating the decent players we already have with some real quality.

As others have so frequently said we need to stop packing the squad with average players.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 02, 2012, 09:16:02 PM
Rodgers system is going to take time to implement too.

The players are still not giving enough options to the men on the ball.

With the ball, the defense often overpassed it around at the back, drew the opposition onto themselves and ended up passing back to the keeper who was forced to launch it up field. I dont think thats the type of possession game Rodgers is trying to devlop. With Agger in there you would have him looking to take the ball out of defence while looking to push forward.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 02, 2012, 09:18:44 PM
There should be one rule when buying - if the player isn't good enough to improve one of the 11 positions in the first team then DON'T BUY.

You don't buy 'squad players'. Squad players are made up of first 11 players who have been upgraded (those on the way down) and young players looking to break into the first 11 (those on the way up).

It's pure common sense but it means you can't help but strengthen and improve.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 02, 2012, 09:24:22 PM
With the ball, the defense often overpassed it around at the back, drew the opposition onto themselves and ended up passing back to the keeper who was forced to launch it up field. I dont think thats the type of possession game Rodgers is trying to devlop. With Agger in there you would have him looking to take the ball out of defence while looking to push forward.

That is down to the midfield not giving the man with the ball an option. I simply fail to understand how pros can not understand the concept of finding space and making yourself an option to your team mate. The man with the ball is hardly difficult to spot.

Juan, you kept that quiet.
































































































































Stewart Downing scored a goal!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 02, 2012, 09:36:33 PM
 ;D Lol Tes I didnt want to start getting peoples hopes up.  Now you will have Dude and co coming on here claiming we're going to win the league  ;D.

In all seriousness first game in and downing has already nearly scored as many goals as last season.

This could be our year Tes!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 02, 2012, 10:44:55 PM
;D Lol Tes I didnt want to start getting peoples hopes up.  Now you will have Dude and co coming on here claiming we're going to win the league  ;D.

In all seriousness first game in and downing has already nearly scored as many goals as last season.

This could be our year Tes!

Dude's bound to get seriously carried away. He told us Dalglish would come good and boy has he just. Winning away in Europe. All hail our manager Woy.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 03, 2012, 04:14:22 PM
Dude's bound to get seriously carried away. He told us Dalglish would come good and boy has he just. Winning away in Europe. All hail our manager Woy.  :D
Now you will have Dude and co coming on here claiming we're going to win the league  ;D .

in the absence of Martin, it is left to me to rally the troops around the flag!

I see great things ahead (a cliff edge, the great abyss, a wide long empty desert)

keep your heads up troops - rejoice in the fact that every fart, every burp, every piece of tittle-tattle will be relayed on to us by our fine young manager.

indeed, I have started to wonder if our yankee owners misheard Rodgers at the interview.  They sought tika-taka, he offered tittle-tattle.

taxi for dude.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 03, 2012, 09:03:59 PM
in the absence of Martin, it is left to me to rally the troops around the flag!

I see great things ahead (a cliff edge, the great abyss, a wide long empty desert)

keep your heads up troops - rejoice in the fact that every fart, every burp, every piece of tittle-tattle will be relayed on to us by our fine young manager.

indeed, I have started to wonder if our yankee owners misheard Rodgers at the interview.  They sought tika-taka, he offered tittle-tattle.

taxi for dude.

They probably thought he wanted to play 'noughts and crosses'.

Where is Martin? I've been struggling to keep my chin up (as the gravel rash will attest to) since Martin's made himself scarce. Glad to see you've taken over tub thumping duties, Dude.

I hadn't realised our pitch was so close to the 'disappearing' cliffs of the East Coast.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 03, 2012, 09:08:00 PM
They probably thought he wanted to play 'noughts and crosses'.

Where is Martin? I've been struggling to keep my chin up (as the gravel rash will attest to) since Martin's made himself scarce. Glad to see you've taken over tub thumping duties, Dude.

I hadn't realised our pitch was so close to the 'disappearing' cliffs of the East Coast.

martin is absent these weeks, but he has a lot of work on his hands these days.  He is trying to recruit allen, dempsey and a few others.

but he has entrusted me with keeping chins up.

i am now off the Kings PR Team....so now I can devote all my energies to the new manager.



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 03, 2012, 09:53:13 PM
martin is absent these weeks, but he has a lot of work on his hands these days.  He is trying to recruit allen, dempsey and a few others.

but he has entrusted me with keeping chins up.

i am now off the Kings PR Team....so now I can devote all my energies to the new manager.

 :D

Has anyone ever seen Martin and Brendan Rodgers in the same room together? Are they one and the same person? Brendan has been very busy recently and Martin is absent. Coincidence or not? (Inserts rubbing chin smilie).
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 03, 2012, 11:23:46 PM
:D

Has anyone ever seen Martin and Brendan Rodgers in the same room together? Are they one and the same person? Brendan has been very busy recently and Martin is absent. Coincidence or not? (Inserts rubbing chin smilie).
:D :D :D

very good point - nobody has ever seen Brendan and Martin ever in the same room, at the same time.

and I recall last season, that Martin would go missing at the same times when Swansea had away games, at faraway destinations (i.e. England).

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 09, 2012, 12:05:21 AM
Dirk got two for Fenerbahçe tonight. I'm missing those goals already.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 09, 2012, 12:18:34 AM
the most stupid piece of *business* that we have done this summer.

we might as well have shot ourselves in the head......footballing suicide.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 09, 2012, 12:26:12 AM
Is it really worth £1M to be without him being available. Dirk may be not the most technical with the ball, but his movement and appreciation of how to open up space for others will be missed.

When you have a new manager you need senior players on side. Dirk would have been on side simply because he understands that a player has to respect the manager.

Also he could have managed to play more games than Dalglish rationed him to last season.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 09, 2012, 12:33:18 AM
dalglish was a mug for refusing to give maxi and kuyt games last season.

even a child could see that we looked awesome when they came on the pitch.

you really have to wonder if united have planted agents inside anfield.....and are ruining the club from the inside.

I'd be annoyed if the local pub side was run like this.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 09, 2012, 01:22:42 AM
dalglish was a mug for refusing to give maxi and kuyt games last season.

even a child could see that we looked awesome when they came on the pitch.

you really have to wonder if united have planted agents inside anfield.....and are ruining the club from the inside.

I'd be annoyed if the local pub side was run like this.

Dude, I laugh because what you wrote is funny, but is also so true, and when you think of the amateur ways and constant mistakes that have been made by those we should be able to expect better of, it is actually funny how poor and obvious the errors are.

And you have to laugh as the alternative reactions are far worse.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 09, 2012, 01:34:09 AM
Dude, I laugh because what you wrote is funny, but is also so true, and when you think of the amateur ways and constant mistakes that have been made by those we should be able to expect better of, it is actually funny how poor and obvious the errors are.

And you have to laugh as the alternative reactions are far worse.

you and me could run the club ten times better than this shower of sh.ite, Tes.   (wondering if *shower* is the right collective word, for sh.ite)

are our guys getting paid for these *professional* efforts at running a football club.

I wouldn't pay them tuppence  for their efforts to date.

like FFS look at dalglish.......even a village idiot could see we looked awesome when kuyt and maxi were on the pitch....same was true for mereless.

was it a political problem (they were rafa's players)......was it just that kenny was a managerial moron......was there some clause where we had to offer them new contracts, if they played a certain number of games.   
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 09, 2012, 01:45:54 AM
From: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/9462631/Liverpool-increase-bid-to-15m-for-Joe-Allen-of-Swansea.html# (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/9462631/Liverpool-increase-bid-to-15m-for-Joe-Allen-of-Swansea.html#)

Liverpool (probable XI): Reina; Johnson, Carragher, Skrtel, Enrique; Spearing, Gerrard, Henderson; Borini, Suárez, Downing.

Why Carra and not Coates? I know he played in the Olympics but so did Suarez, so he's more match fit and sharp having played competitive games recently, which should allow him to feel comfortable.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 09, 2012, 01:53:19 AM
Why Carra and not Coates? I know he played in the Olympics but so did Suarez, so he's more match fit and sharp having played competitive games recently, which should allow him to feel comfortable.

BR is staying onside with Carra, I reckon.

we're gonna play tic-tac Barca-style football, with Hoofer at centreback and captain marvel in the middle.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 09, 2012, 12:21:10 PM
BR is staying onside with Carra, I reckon.

we're gonna play tic-tac Barca-style football, with Hoofer at centreback and captain marvel in the middle.

We're going to be 'mixing it up'. 9 outfield players play at tictacs, but when needed 'give it Carra' and 'hoof', we've mixed it up.   ;)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 09, 2012, 09:06:42 PM
We're going to be 'mixing it up'. 9 outfield players play at tictacs, but when needed 'give it Carra' and 'hoof', we've mixed it up.   ;)

 ;D

yes, that is the back-up plan.......if Plan A fails, pass it to Hoofer.   

That's what we call mixing it up, at Anfield 2012.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 09, 2012, 10:39:42 PM
;D

yes, that is the back-up plan.......if Plan A fails, pass it to Hoofer.   

That's what we call mixing it up, at Anfield 2012.

We actually sent a few 'long passes' over the heads of our midfield tonight and I laughed every time we did it, as I couldn't help thinking about this thread.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 09, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
Did anyone sees Gerrard's interview about the Agger situation, as according to some he pretty much said Danny wants to stay, Rodgers wants him to stay, but the owners may see things differently.

I get that they think offering a new improved contract to a 27 y.o who only plays half the games might not seem like a sensible thing to do, but this is where business meets football and you need knowledge of both to make an informed judgement. Our owners may just be showing they aren't learning this football lark too quickly.

If Agger was a stopper, then fine, but centre halves that have the ball skills of your average midfielder aren't easy to find. He will be the starting point for the way Rodgers wants to play. Also, I guess they can't tell how much better Skrtel looks with Agger beside him than with Carragher any other centre half.   
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 09, 2012, 11:17:29 PM
Did anyone sees Gerrard's interview about the Agger situation, as according to some he pretty much said Danny wants to stay, Rodgers wants him to stay, but the owners may see things differently.

I get that they think offering a new improved contract to a 27 y.o who only plays half the games might not seem like a sensible thing to do, but this is where business meets football and you need knowledge of both to make an informed judgement. Our owners may just be showing they aren't learning this football lark too quickly.

If Agger was a stopper, then fine, but centre halves that have the ball skills of your average midfielder aren't easy to find. He will be the starting point for the way Rodgers wants to play. Also, I guess they can't tell how much better Skrtel looks with Agger beside him than with Carragher any other centre half.   
We actually sent a few 'long passes' over the heads of our midfield tonight and I laughed every time we did it, as I couldn't help thinking about this thread.

 :D     we can see it ahead of time. 

yes, re football meets business.  The lad may be injury prone, but heck, what sense does it make to sell him just when he has started to get relatively free of injury. 

morons, to sell a lad that is top class, and craves to play for us.

as you say, how do you replace him.  But the morons have not thought that far ahead.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 13, 2012, 07:01:15 PM
I think Shelvey needs to leave the wild tackling behind in pre-season.
There were a couple I saw that weren't dissimilar to what got ivanovic
red yesterday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slYUuMxMISA

Just waiting to happen, imo. I'll be pissed if it costs us against the big teams at
the start of the season  :(
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 13, 2012, 08:25:10 PM
I think Shelvey needs to leave the wild tackling behind in pre-season.
There were a couple I saw that weren't dissimilar to what got ivanovic
red yesterday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slYUuMxMISA

Just waiting to happen, imo. I'll be pissed if it costs us against the big teams at
the start of the season  :(

Part of his learning curve and the manager needs to reinforce the message.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 13, 2012, 11:39:27 PM
Part of his learning curve and the manager needs to reinforce the message.
Enthusiasm of youth i suppose  ::)

Which reminds me, doubt Lucas is up to speed yet for the start of the season (wasn't 100%
sharp against Leverkusen). Shame we didn't sell a certain player to Bolton  :) and get proper
cover for that position.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 13, 2012, 11:55:32 PM
Enthusiasm of youth i suppose  ::)

Which reminds me, doubt Lucas is up to speed yet for the start of the season (wasn't 100%
sharp against Leverkusen). Shame we didn't sell a certain player to Bolton  :) and get proper
cover for that position.

West Ham have just bought Alou Diarra, our Alou Diarra who was never given a chance and is now a French international. £2M is all he cost. Experienced, quality cover for Lucas, at an age that won't inhibit the development of any young player and we'd have got our money back (surely) when we sold Spearing.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 14, 2012, 01:48:20 PM
there ye go again, with that common sense malarky!

it will never catch on.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 14, 2012, 01:51:42 PM
there ye go again, with that common sense malarky!

it will never catch on.

I've always been a behind the trend type rather than ahead of it.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 14, 2012, 01:58:43 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 14, 2012, 02:55:49 PM
we'd have got our money back (surely) when we sold Spearing.

For that you need a willing seller and a willing buyer.

Unfortunately for us we seem to have neither.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 14, 2012, 03:19:09 PM
it's a real eye opener when you see us buying allen at 15 million
 
and then swansea offering bolton a mere 4 MILLION for his replacement.
 
bolton have not accepted the bid, for mark davies....seemingly holding out for 7 million.
 
you can see the difference, money wise, in the haves and have nots.
 
and also the REAL price of these players.  Because of one decent season in the premiership, Joe Allen's price has now pretty much doubled, even trebled (to 15 million).
 
Hell of a risk, for a tiny midfielder, who has scored a mere 8 goals in 149 professional games, across all divisions.   Do we not already have a sufficient quantity of non-scoring midfielders at Anfield?
 
 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 14, 2012, 05:16:01 PM
it's a real eye opener when you see us buying allen at 15 million
 
and then swansea offering bolton a mere 4 MILLION for his replacement.
 
bolton have not accepted the bid, for mark davies....seemingly holding out for 7 million.
 
you can see the difference, money wise, in the haves and have nots.
 
and also the REAL price of these players.  Because of one decent season in the premiership, Joe Allen's price has now pretty much doubled, even trebled (to 15 million).
 
Hell of a risk, for a tiny midfielder, who has scored a mere 8 goals in 149 professional games, across all divisions.   Do we not already have a sufficient quantity of non-scoring midfielders at Anfield?

Agreed Dude 15 million does equate to a risk for a player with one year premier league experience. What gives me a small shred of comfort is that Rodgers has worked with the player and still feels hes worth the money. He was even willing to break his agreement with Swansea regarding not going back for their players so he clearly feels the players up to it.

Also the fact that he wouldnt pay the extra wages to land Siggursson I suppose shows hes not willing to pay over the odds for just anyone. I dont know what it is but I have a feeling Siggurrson is going to regret his decision to go to Spurs over us. Hes looked lively in preseason but I think they could flop under AVB.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 14, 2012, 05:34:53 PM
I dont think theres any point in starting a new thread for this, last season I dont think anybody responded  :'(.

So I'll just do it in this thread. The PL season starts this weekend. Do we have any predictions?

With our big players back, with new signings in the bag and with more players on the way I've started to feel a little more optimistic!!

This could be our year!


In all seriousness I dont think so. I actually am a little more optimistic than Ive have been of late but unless we can show some major form we're looking at 6th-10th. My predictions go as follows;

Winners Man City
2nd Arsenal
3rd United
4th Chelsea
5th Spurs
6th Liverpool

I think Chelsea will be inconsistent under RDM hence the 4th spot. I think Spurs could flop. Funnily enough whether RVP stays or goes I think Arsenal will be a tougher proposition this season. You can only assume Newcastle and Everton wont be far away from those 6 teams if not in amongst them. As for us we could finish 6th, I dare not predict higher. Theres also the fear we could end up in 10th. Lets see what kind of a start we make.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 14, 2012, 06:05:59 PM
I dont think theres any point in starting a new thread for this, last season I dont think anybody responded  :'(.

So I'll just do it in this thread. The PL season starts this weekend. Do we have any predictions?

With our big players back, with new signings in the bag and with more players on the way I've started to feel a little more optimistic!!

This could be our year!


In all seriousness I dont think so. I actually am a little more optimistic than Ive have been of late but unless we can show some major form we're looking at 6th-10th. My predictions go as follows;

Winners Man City
2nd Arsenal
3rd United
4th Chelsea
5th Spurs
6th Liverpool

I think Chelsea will be inconsistent under RDM hence the 4th spot. I think Spurs could flop. Funnily enough whether RVP stays or goes I think Arsenal will be a tougher proposition this season. You can only assume Newcastle and Everton wont be far away from those 6 teams if not in amongst them. As for us we could finish 6th, I dare not predict higher. Theres also the fear we could end up in 10th. Lets see what kind of a start we make.


I think we have to take inspiration from the Olympics, a bit like those long distance runners:

Bide our time,
Stay with the chasing pack,
Get in position and
Strain every muscle in the club and win a sprint finish for 4th.


I'm totally f*cking deluded aren't i?  :)

I think that we have to look at the other clubs around us (even behind us) and accept that it's going
to be tough. However, what i want to see is the determination to secure 3 points every game home
and away. None of this giving up with 20 minutes to go stuff. Right up to the 95th minute we need to be
trying. I think that's where Rodgers is mistaken when he says clubs will have "the longest 90 minutes of
their life"
against us:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18971650

He should have said 95 minutes!

It's become uber-fashionable amongst the LFC pundits & TAW lads to talk about being in contention for 4th right up
to the final day (as if success now equated to noble failure or something). I can't accept that, if we're in
contention for 4th right up to the final day then we should secure 4th? (i really don't understand the contention
bit?).

1.) City
2.) United
3.) Chelsea
4.) Liverpool
5.) Arsenal
6.) Spurs

Maybe Arsenal and Chelsea are swappable. Tbh, our position is based on bloody-mindedness rather than
belief  and is subject to change once the transfer window closes and the nature of our performances home and
away becomes clearer :'(
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 14, 2012, 07:31:14 PM
1st Man City
2nd Man Utd
3rd Arsenal
4th Chelsea
5th Spurs
6th Newcastle


sorry, but I just cannot see Liverpool competing for a top 4 spot, given the downsizing (and unskilled and inexperienced personnel) at the club (owners, chief executive, manager, players).  Indeed, we may not see the club competing for a CL spot any time soon.  It may be years, if indeed we ever compete again.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 14, 2012, 07:44:35 PM
For that you need a willing seller and a willing buyer.

Unfortunately for us we seem to have neither.

That Juan is the unfortunate truth of it. Why we are pesisting with him, I don't know. We'd love him to be good enough, but all the wishing ain't working, the well must have broken.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 14, 2012, 08:00:08 PM
Agreed Dude 15 million does equate to a risk for a player with one year premier league experience. What gives me a small shred of comfort is that Rodgers has worked with the player and still feels hes worth the money. He was even willing to break his agreement with Swansea regarding not going back for their players so he clearly feels the players up to it.

I take that shred of comfort from it too, Juan (that our boss knows the player well).

another little thing that has gone largely unreported.   We didn't have Allen's registration done on time (he was bought after 5pm and the registry office was closed).  But Swansea COULD have given us permission to play Allen against Leverkusen.  That type of friendly agreement happens all the time.  Swansea REFUSED to do so. 

That tells you all that you need to know about what they think about Rodgers raid on their club for Joe Allen.

Rodgers is a bullsh.itter and (I suspect) is not as well liked in the industry as he likes to believe.
 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 14, 2012, 08:12:45 PM
Strain every muscle in the club and win a sprint finish for 4th. [/i]

I'm totally f*cking deluded aren't i?  :)

Completely  ;D


It's become uber-fashionable amongst the LFC pundits & TAW lads to talk about being in contention for 4th right up
to the final day (as if success now equated to noble failure or something). I can't accept that, if we're in
contention for 4th right up to the final day then we should secure 4th? (i really don't understand the contention
bit?).

1.) City
2.) United
3.) Chelsea
4.) Liverpool
5.) Arsenal
6.) Spurs

Maybe Arsenal and Chelsea are swappable. Tbh, our position is based on bloody-mindedness rather than
belief  and is subject to change once the transfer window closes and the nature of our performances home and
away becomes clearer :'(

Know what you mean by "contention" alright Ed. I suppose its a consequence of firstly failing to launch title challenges over the years and in more recent times failing to be in the mix for the Champions League. Pundits now equate success for LFC as not winning things but moreso not being far away from a title challenge or running one of the other also rans close for fourth place.

Your 4th place prediction is uber positive alright. Its not impossible, unlikely perhaps given whats gone on in previous seasons but as you say we will have to see what happens in the early part of the season to see where we are really at.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 14, 2012, 08:19:44 PM
1st Man City
2nd Man Utd
3rd Arsenal
4th Chelsea
5th Spurs
6th Newcastle


sorry, but I just cannot see Liverpool competing for a top 4 spot, given the downsizing (and unskilled and inexperienced personnel) at the club (owners, chief executive, manager, players).  Indeed, we may not see the club competing for a CL spot any time soon.  It may be years, if indeed we ever compete again.

Its a fair reflection from you Dude given whats happened over the last number of years. Like Ed says it will be hard to tell where we're really at until the league season starts proper. At the moment we are probably hovering somewhere between 10th and 4th. 10th would equate to an even poorer season than last year, 4th would probably represent a level of consistency or perfect home record that hasnt been seen in a number of years. Realistically we are probably somewhere in between but we'll have to wait and see.

An away win against West Brom would definitely lift the spirits. Last season the result at home to Sunderland seemed to be the catalyst for our inability to convert chances and was a sign of things to come at home. We need to burst out of the blocks.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 14, 2012, 08:25:25 PM
I take that shred of comfort from it too, Juan (that our boss knows the player well).

another little thing that has gone largely unreported.   We didn't have Allen's registration done on time (he was bought after 5pm and the registry office was closed).  But Swansea COULD have given us permission to play Allen against Leverkusen.  That type of friendly agreement happens all the time.  Swansea REFUSED to do so. 

That tells you all that you need to know about what they think about Rodgers raid on their club for Joe Allen.

Rodgers is a bullsh.itter and (I suspect) is not as well liked in the industry as he likes to believe.

I thought that was petty from Swansea. Whatever they felt about the deal or how Rodgers went about it at the end of the day they were getting 15 million for a relatively unproven player. To refuse Allen permission to be part of Sundays game smacked of small time club to me. I do understand your point about Rodgers though Dude. Whether we like him or not though I dont think we can do anything other than back him. We cant afford to keep chopping and changing manager so even if his first season in charge ends in a bigger league failure than last season I think Rodgers will still have to get the time needed to turn things around. Hopefully he will get the team performing this season though and the subject of replacements wont even have to be discussed.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 14, 2012, 08:32:19 PM
I'm abstaining on the grounds that with my middle name being Jonah, any prediction I make will be a signed death warrent. Damn it, 16th, survival secured Everton style on the last day.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 14, 2012, 08:47:17 PM
I thought that was petty from Swansea. Whatever they felt about the deal or how Rodgers went about it at the end of the day they were getting 15 million for a relatively unproven player. To refuse Allen permission to be part of Sundays game smacked of small time club to me. I do understand your point about Rodgers though Dude. Whether we like him or not though I dont think we can do anything other than back him. We cant afford to keep chopping and changing manager so even if his first season in charge ends in a bigger league failure than last season I think Rodgers will still have to get the time needed to turn things around. Hopefully he will get the team performing this season though and the subject of replacements wont even have to be discussed.

I guess they felt justified as the 'gentleman's agreement soon proved to be written in disappearing ink.

Totally agree Juan that we have to place our faith in someone sooner rather than later. 5 in 5 seasons doesn't sound good. Not to mention keep using  our transfer budget on pay offs and compensation. Even if it's hope rather than faith, Rodgers is the man in posession of  the job so it's with him we go.

Qualification through the league for European football (not even the EL) would be the first time in 3 seasons, and as it's an indicator of just how far we've fallen, to qualify for CL football would be a truly major achievement and beyond what we should reasonably expect of the season.   
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 14, 2012, 10:08:35 PM
Completely  ;D

Yeah, i just couldn't enter the season with my expectations any lower!   ;D

Rodgers is a bullsh.itter and (I suspect) is not as well liked in the industry as he likes to believe.

It does raise the question of whether the likes of O'Neill, Jol & Moyes even Martinez will think
they have points to prove when they play us this season. If I'd been slogging my guts out
managing midtable teams in the Prem for years and along comes this guy and lands a top job
after a year!!! It couldn't help but rankle.

Totally agree Juan that we have to place our faith in someone sooner rather than later. 5 in 5 seasons doesn't sound good. Not to mention keep using  our transfer budget on pay offs and compensation. Even if it's hope rather than faith, Rodgers is the man in posession of  the job so it's with him we go.   

I remain sceptical after the Hodgson fiasco, obviously i'll get behind the team but am
reserving judgement on the manager until i hear press conferences before and after
key games and results. I think it's easier to be suspicious at the beginning and grow to
respect the gaffer based on his actions than to start off really positive and slowly lose
faith when all it is is words.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 14, 2012, 10:28:40 PM
Yeah, i just couldn't enter the season with my expectations any lower!   ;D

It does raise the question of whether the likes of O'Neill, Jol & Moyes even Martinez will think
they have points to prove when they play us this season. If I'd been slogging my guts out
managing midtable teams in the Prem for years and along comes this guy and lands a top job
after a year!!! It couldn't help but rankle.

I remain sceptical after the Hodgson fiasco, obviously i'll get behind the team but am
reserving judgement on the manager until i hear press conferences before and after
key games and results. I think it's easier to be suspicious at the beginning and grow to
respect the gaffer based on his actions than to start off really positive and slowly lose
faith when all it is is words.

Instinct places me in the 'hope' camp, not the 'faith' one at the moment as we've just placed one of the biggest jobs (and they don't come much bigger than getting us back up there being a perennial league challenger) in football in the hands of a manager with one season top league managerial experience. The thing is we don't need to believe he will be successful to support him.

Hodgson was a one off. His track proved he would fail. His way of playing was tortuous. His transfers were beyond a joke.

At least the football we will try to play will be more pleasing on the eye. The second leg against Gomel went how it should have done. It wasn't making heavy weather of a reasonably straight forward task. He's not been blown of course already. They're only tiny reasons but at least they exist. With Hodgson, meh, I'll say no more about him. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 15, 2012, 02:13:38 PM
It does raise the question of whether the likes of O'Neill, Jol & Moyes even Martinez will think
they have points to prove when they play us this season. If I'd been slogging my guts out
managing midtable teams in the Prem for years and along comes this guy and lands a top job
after a year!!! It couldn't help but rankle.

fair point.

martin o'neill is ten times the manager that our young bullsh.itter is.

he;s been successful at every club he has been at.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 16, 2012, 01:47:47 PM
Liverpool chairman Tom Werner believes that the Reds are capable of returning to the top level of English and European football.

The Merseyside outfit, who finished eighth in the league under Kenny Dalglish last season, begin their Premier League campaign this weekend under the leadership of new boss Brendan Rodgers.

"We know that we are behind, but we are on it," the Liverpool Echo quotes Werner as saying.

"We have a lot of respect, not just for Manchester United, but other clubs in the Premier League, as well as Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich.

"We learned a lot about some of the ideas that they have. For us, we feel that we have work to do. Do we feel that it is possible to get on a level with those clubs? Absolutely. Can we close that gap and compete at the very highest level? Absolutely."

"Can we talk any more undiluted excrement?  Absolutely."
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 16, 2012, 01:57:04 PM
Liverpool chairman Tom Werner believes that the Reds are capable of returning to the top level of English and European football.

The Merseyside outfit, who finished eighth in the league under Kenny Dalglish last season, begin their Premier League campaign this weekend under the leadership of new boss Brendan Rodgers.

"We know that we are behind, but we are on it," the Liverpool Echo quotes Werner as saying.

"We have a lot of respect, not just for Manchester United, but other clubs in the Premier League, as well as Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich.

"We learned a lot about some of the ideas that they have. For us, we feel that we have work to do. Do we feel that it is possible to get on a level with those clubs? Absolutely. Can we close that gap and compete at the very highest level? Absolutely."

"Can we talk any more undiluted excrement?  Absolutely."

So why do we still have the administrative setup that we do.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 16, 2012, 02:38:09 PM
So why do we still have the administrative setup that we do.

exactly.

these owners appear in front of Liverpool TV, or other *media friendly* people.

they need to start being confronted with their management-at-a-distance style.........asked if this style has been successful anywhere else in the world.

they need to be confronted about why they have not appointed a top notch chief executive.

they need to be asked, if they are getting external specialised advice, say re the new managerial appointment.....exactly who is this adviser/s.....or if they are not getting advice, and merely acting on *gut instinct*, if they think this is wise (since they know fek-all about football.

they need to be confronted with the fact that everything they have touched to date at Anfield has turned into sh.ite.......and that the club has gone backwards.....and may indeed be in free-fall.



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 16, 2012, 05:41:58 PM
I note Shiteh blazing a trail in data analysis (Wasn't that our idea originally with the Soccerballnomics?):

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2012/08/16/are-you-the-new-bill-james-mcfc-will-give-you-data-worth-thousands-to-find-out-160802/

I think we have to look beyond the inflated transfers of MCFC and take note of how serious
they are to remain at the top for years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18887653

Tbh, it was in these too areas that i thought we could gain an edge  :'( I could further delude
myself by thinking that Ayre installed a secret bunker in Anfield where they're currently running
experiments with Rushie's dna, but i doubt it.

On the upside we're currently above both Manchester clubs in the league as it  now stands!  :)

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 16, 2012, 06:35:34 PM
I note Shiteh blazing a trail in data analysis (Wasn't that our idea originally with the Soccerballnomics?)
Tbh, it was in these too areas that i thought we could gain an edge  :'( I could further delude
myself by thinking that Ayre installed a secret bunker in Anfield where they're currently running
experiments with Rushie's dna, but i doubt it.

On the upside we're currently above both Manchester clubs in the league as it  now stands!  :)

we are indeed  :D

re rushie - this present lot would sell our lanky welsh wizard, after 6 months, because he didn't gel immediately.  Or if they had taken over during the lad's great years, they would have sold him (wages too high).

if it's good, flog it.   

as for data analysis......the best data analysis is done not on moneyball, but on football.  Rafa and his colleages had the best software for analysing on-the-pitch data.

but like our best players, rafa was also flogged. 

Our club really has gone from the heights of europe (number one club 4 or 5 years ago), to mid-table oblivion.

And one doesn;t need data analysis software to discover that sad reality.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 16, 2012, 06:38:26 PM
we are indeed  :D

re rushie - this present lot would sell our lanky welsh wizard, after 6 months, because he didn't gel immediately.  Or if they had taken over during the lad's great years, they would have sold him (wages too high).

if it's good, flog it.   

as for data analysis......the best data analysis is done not on moneyball, but on football.  Rafa and his colleages had the best software for analysing on-the-pitch data.

but like our best players, rafa was also flogged. 

Our club really has gone from the heights of europe (number one club 4 or 5 years ago), to mid-table oblivion.

And one doesn;t need data analysis software to discover that sad reality.
Not to worry we've signed Oussama Assaidi !!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 16, 2012, 06:54:51 PM
sounds like someone the yanks would be interested in re overhead drones.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 16, 2012, 07:07:33 PM
sounds like someone the yanks would be interested in re overhead drones.
Geronimo KIA  ;D

Apparently, Fulham and Ajax were interested. Lad's a Moroccan international.
There's some video of him here.

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/reds-agree-deal-for-winger

I hope this signing is the result of pain-staking and diligent scouting.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 16, 2012, 07:38:34 PM
I hope this signing is the result of pain-staking and diligent scouting.

David Brent assured us yesterday that all our new recruits have been extensively researched and have Liverpool values.

Believe that and I've got a bridge that I can sell you.    ;)

More likely some lov-level-feeder at Melwood has spotted the lad on youtube.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 16, 2012, 08:53:53 PM
David Brent assured us yesterday that all our new recruits have been extensively researched and have Liverpool values.
Speaking of which Brent and Wormer will be delivering a broadcast to the masses on
5 live tonight at 9:30 p.m.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01lt359

Alas, it's not what your football club can do for you but what you can do for your football club
(new subscription service for buying players!)

We'll play them on the beaches!
(nothing on the stadium again!)

Just preparing myself for the empty speechifying  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 17, 2012, 01:42:04 AM
More likely some low-level-feeder at Melwood has spotted the lad on youtube.
It's interesting because Newcastle signed the lad Anita from Ajax for £6.7 million &
Ajax were interested in this Assaidi (but the deal stalled) who we're getting for £2million.
Wonder who's got the better scouts in Holland...

I'm beginning to lose track of the number of players in the squad who remain unknown quantities
between the under-performers from last season & the new recruits. It's going to take a while for things
to settle down...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 17, 2012, 01:02:57 PM
I have very ambigious feelings regarding the new season and what to expect from it. A part of me says we'll struggle with inconsistency before finally become more balanced and consistent during the second half of the season. Another, that we're in for the best season in years, even decades.

I think we'll finish runner's up or 3rd at worst. I know I'm sticking me head out hee, but I really have this feeling we'll start well and given the fixture list a good start would see us right up there come mid-October when the first phase of "coming together as a team" should near its end. If that happens and we can improve as a team as a club from that point I don't see no reason not to be very optimistic.  Also, they say you make your own luck. And whilst I'm the first red to admit we were extremly unlucky on numerous ocassions last season, Kenny never really had it to turn things around. That somthing I am sure Brendan has, meaning this season will se a lot of draws turn into wins and defeats into at least draws.

I would add to that, that I do think City will walk the title, period. ManU and Chelsea I think will struggle for various and different reasons. ManU primarily because of an injuryplagued defense and below standard midfield and Chelsea because of lack of leadership and structure on and off the pitch.

I'm not expecting us to finish 2nd or 3rd, I just have this feeling everything will fall into place for the first time in over 2 decades. I may be wrong but that's how I genuinely and truly feel.

Bring on the new season!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 17, 2012, 01:11:50 PM
It's interesting because Newcastle signed the lad Anita from Ajax for £6.7 million &
Ajax were interested in this Assaidi (but the deal stalled) who we're getting for £2million.
Wonder who's got the better scouts in Holland...

I'm beginning to lose track of the number of players in the squad who remain unknown quantities
between the under-performers from last season & the new recruits. It's going to take a while for things
to settle down...

yes, if Assaidi was available for peanuts, then why did the major dutch clubs (ajax, psv, feyenord) not go for him.

heck, maybe there is a simple answer - e.g  that he wanted too much money/wages or duration of contract (or 50 virgins).

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 17, 2012, 01:14:00 PM
I have very ambigious feelings regarding the new season and what to expect from it.

I think we'll finish runner's up or 3rd at worst.

I'm not expecting us to finish 2nd or 3rd

sounds like you;re hedging your bets there, Martin!   :)

BTW welcome back to the forum. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 17, 2012, 01:18:49 PM
Cheers for that my friend. I've been in read-mode for most of the summer. Will be here more regurarly from now on.

I just know it's a tad stupid to stick once head out like that and normally I'm the first to advocate low exptectations and time allowed to re-build/structure. It has dawned on me the last couple of weeks tho that given the fixture list it will go either of two ways and I have this feeling it'll fall into place.

Have you seen the same light as me yet? Re Brendan I mean?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 17, 2012, 01:43:49 PM
yes, if Assaidi was available for peanuts, then why did the major dutch clubs (ajax, psv, feyenord) not go for him.
or Fulham make more of an effort. He strikes me as the type of player we'd normally sign from
Ajax or Fulham for £15million after 1 good season. Anyway, we'll have to wait and see I suppose.

I think we'll finish runner's up or 3rd at worst.

I'm not expecting us to finish 2nd or 3rd, I just have this feeling everything will fall into place for the first time in over 2 decades.
Geez wtf have u been smoking all Summer?  :)

I would think your mate Brendan some sort of genius if he could pull off anything above 4th.
Sure we've got the guts of a good 1st team on its day but with all the chopping and changing,
for him to be able to mould a consistent 38 game streak bearing in mind the slings and arrows
of outrageous fortune that generally befall a football team throughout the season  :o

Tbh, all i wish for is a quiet season with the talking on the pitch and a determined march for 4th +
productive use of the squad giving us a platform to build for the following season.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 17, 2012, 04:28:22 PM
Ajax were in for Assaidi but because they've got major financial problems they couldn't afford his wages, which apparently were £7k a week at Heereveen, and now apparently are £21K.

I hope he proves to be the sort that the lower placed clubs tend to buy before selling on for a 500% profit a season or two later.

If we can start to tap into this market there's a chance we could close the gap if the contribution they bring to the team is more than their individual reputations would suggest. Moyes has always been good at bringing in players who the bigger teams might turn their nose up at and then they prove they are worth much more than their fee would suggest.

Martin, has Brendan given you earache? You'll have to forgive some of us for shouting but we're wearing ear plugs. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 17, 2012, 08:22:02 PM
Thankfully we'll soon have some football to moan talk about.  ;D

An away win, a reasonably co-ordinated performance, Rodgers keeping his post match thoughts short and sweet and no injuries. Not really asking for much on the first day of the season, am I.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 17, 2012, 10:29:11 PM
Have you seen the same light as me yet? Re Brendan I mean?

I'm still giving the issue some consideration, Martin.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 11:20:46 AM
I'm still giving the issue some consideration, Martin.

It's a head hurting experiencing, not to mention having our ears assaulted, day after day.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 18, 2012, 01:41:36 PM
It's a head hurting experiencing, not to mention having our ears assaulted, day after day.

Have faith that it's worth it once you see it.

I think we'll win 2-0 today. They have injuryproblems at the back and I for the first time since Roy Evans the players actually look like enjoying their footy.

Ed, I'm not expecting us to be consistent for yet another 18 months or so. I just have the feeling inspiration, managerial novelty, luck and some good old mental strength may be enough to se us have a one off. EVERYONE says it will take time to get back into the top 4. I'm not that sure it will.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 18, 2012, 02:25:24 PM
I think we'll finish runner's up or 3rd at worst.

I'm not expecting us to finish 2nd or 3rd

I'm not expecting us to be consistent for yet another 18 months or so.

EVERYONE says it will take time to get back into the top 4. I'm not that sure it will.

you've definitely covered all the angles, Martin!

 :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 18, 2012, 02:33:42 PM
It's a head hurting experiencing, not to mention having our ears assaulted, day after day.

I'm considering drinking more alcoholic beverage.

We need a Rab C Nesbitt character amongst the media, at each daily Melwood conference.

i.e. someone who will tell it like it is.   e.g.  responses like, "would yae run that past me again"    or    "Tell yae wan thing - see all this shoutin? It does not half give yae a helluva thirst."   or   "would yae dry your eyes"
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 02:36:59 PM
I'm considering drinking more alcoholic beverage.

We need a Rab C Nesbitt character amongst the media, at each daily Melwood conference.

i.e. someone who will tell it like it is.   e.g.  responses like, "would yae run that past me again"    or    "Tell yae wan thing - see all this shoutin? It does not half give yae a helluva thirst."   or   "would yae dry your eyes"

That's the best Scottish accent I've ever heard read.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 02:38:56 PM
you've definitely covered all the angles, Martin!

 :D

That was a top bit of quoting Dude, and you did well to keep up with Martin's multiple changes of direction. Damn, even talking about our manager is starting to make my head hurt.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 18, 2012, 02:43:41 PM
That's the best Scottish accent I've ever heard read.  :D

 :D

on a nice summer day, I could stand on the coast and actually see Scotland (mull of kintyre, that poked out into the Irish sea).

cannae beat the scenery of the wonderful British Isles.  One doesnae appreciate it enough, til one has gone abroad.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 18, 2012, 02:46:35 PM
That was a top bit of quoting Dude, and you did well to keep up with Martin's multiple changes of direction. Damn, even talking about our manager is starting to make my head hurt.

I think Martin is actually a politician.

My right honourable friends, we should storm the embassy and arrest this rapist.  But on the other hand, my honourable friends, he has not actually been charged with anything, and it would be against the Vienna Convention to storm a foreign embassy.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 02:56:37 PM
Is Enrique injured as he's not even on the bench.

Looks like Rodgers is trying to get something out of Downing that Dalglish failed to. Pretty much what was suggested on here might happen or be the most financially viable way forward.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 03:44:04 PM
New season - nothing changes - players still scoring their 'goal of the season' against us.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 18, 2012, 04:05:20 PM
yes, a fruity close-down by our defender (jumps and turns his back when trying to block the shot getting away).

same old, same old.

headless chicken, end to end.

nothing i see resembling tactics is obvious.

this is Brent's first test.  I said previously that it was away from home, where he would be found out.   How will he now react, tactically, to going behind away from home. 

if we didn;t have suarez, I have no idea where our ideas and inspiration, to open opposing defences, would come from.  He seems to be the catalyst for everything good.
 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 04:17:13 PM
Dowd's booking our lads for 'nothings', whilst letting the West Brom players get away with whatever they want to. Is consistency really that much of a request.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 04:17:57 PM
yes, a fruity close-down by our defender (jumps and turns his back when trying to block the shot getting away).

same old, same old.

headless chicken, end to end.

nothing i see resembling tactics is obvious.

this is Brent's first test.  I said previously that it was away from home, where he would be found out.   How will he now react, tactically, to going behind away from home. 

if we didn;t have suarez, I have no idea where our ideas and inspiration, to open opposing defences, would come from.  He seems to be the catalyst for everything good.
 

Agreed Dude, Dalglish needs to come up with a Plan B, and quick.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 04:23:37 PM
2-0 and Agger off. Oh well, I suppose we've got another 37 more games to look forward to.
Title: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Gurdeep on August 18, 2012, 04:23:39 PM
We're finished!  RIP LFC!!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 18, 2012, 04:27:05 PM
Dowd's booking our lads for 'nothings', whilst letting the West Brom players get away with whatever they want to. Is consistency really that much of a request.

i saw that too in the first half, Tes.   Booking our lads and letting their lads away with the same things.   I also spotted him standing way too close to our player who was about to take freekicks.  When a player is taking a freekick, outside the 18 yard box, it hinders him if the ref is standing beside, interuptting his focus and run.

And now in the second, the ref (Dowd) is having an absolute nightmare.

the second penalty was truly scandalous.   I really think questions have to be asked.

nightmare for brent too.  This could end up being a 3 or 4 nil.....unless suarez steps up to the plate.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 04:31:43 PM
Morrison misses a sitter. This is just a bad joke. You'd think we were playing Juventus, not the black and white of WBA.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 04:34:57 PM
If anyone has managed to pick out anything resembling tactics this afternoon, can they please fill me in. Thankyou.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 18, 2012, 04:37:22 PM
yes, that was a sitter.

if they had scored their first penalty and that sitter.....we would be 4-0 down right now.

and just think, this was one of our *easier* games......before Christmas we have to play city, arsenal, chelsea, spurs and united.

I said it before.....I would not be surprised if Brent was out by Christmas.  More likely April/May.   he is potentially worse than dalglish or woy.

3-0 now

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 04:37:35 PM
3-0 This is more embarrassing than anything we had to put up with last season. Hodgson's really going to have to sort something for the next match otherwise it'll be a cricket score against City.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 04:41:25 PM
Luis misses a sitter. Even just one goal would at least give us something to take from this game. This is just painful to watch. Steve Clarke, coached turned manager is really showing Rodgers the way. It's obvious that Dalglish took no notice of Clarke and went about everything his own way.

We're lucky it's not 5 or 6.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 18, 2012, 04:43:02 PM
good save by reina.

they;re cutting us open for fun.

since losing agger, you can see the real lack of strength in our defence.

and david brent was prepared to sell Agger.....what a muppet.

good day for clarke.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 04:45:46 PM
I said it before.....I would not be surprised if Brent was out by Christmas.  More likely April/May.   he is potentially worse than dalglish or woy.

Can we afford to be looking for yet another manager after one season? It's only the first game but if this is a taste to come we'll have little choice, especially if we miss out on any type of European football. But then we'd still have the same people choosing the next man as chose Dalglish and Rodgers.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 18, 2012, 04:46:58 PM
the muppets (owners and manager) were happy to sell the real quality that we had - kuyt and maxi.

well they now have plenty of time to stew in their own juices.

it's going to be a long hard season.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 04:48:37 PM
since losing agger, you can see the real lack of strength in our defence.

and david brent was prepared to sell Agger.....what a muppet.


Great point Dude. I know we're playing with one less, but Agger's absence really is noticable.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 04:50:01 PM
Hope we're feeling strong tonight as we'll be holding up 19 other teams.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 18, 2012, 04:51:41 PM
Can we afford to be looking for yet another manager after one season? It's only the first game but if this is a taste to come we'll have little choice, especially if we miss out on any type of European football. But then we'd still have the same people choosing the next man as chose Dalglish and Rodgers.

like we have said a million times, Tes.......the problem is at the top.

why would any sane person allow the yankee muppets a third go at picking a new manager.

but if wba are ripping us apart for fun.....then we are in real major trouble.

there is a complete absense of tactics.......not dissimlar to dalglish;s outlook last year.  Brainless, headless chicken stuff.

rafa has forgotten more than david brent has ever learned.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 05:10:43 PM
like we have said a million times, Tes.......the problem is at the top.

why would any sane person allow the yankee muppets a third go at picking a new manager.

but if wba are ripping us apart for fun.....then we are in real major trouble.

there is a complete absense of tactics.......not dissimlar to dalglish;s outlook last year.  Brainless, headless chicken stuff.

rafa has forgotten more than david brent has ever learned.

Our players looked mentally weak after the sending off. You lose a player, everyone has to give 10% more. It's just so sad what we have become.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 05:15:21 PM
As for Joe Cole, well you just have to laugh.

We get rid of Dirk and Maxi to cut the wage bill, yet keep Cole. Sterling has to be in the squad, no, on the pitch for the next game. Cole no doubt will be out until beyond the end of the transfer window, so we'll be stuck with him. I'd have Sterling in there ahead of Downing. At least the young lad tries to do things, tries to make a difference.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 05:23:08 PM
Why is it that so many footballers who don't even have the basic ability to pass a football to a team mate when playing a real game, not in training or friendlies etc,  find their way to our club?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 05:29:42 PM
Hope we're feeling strong tonight as we'll be holding up 19 other teams.

Make that only 17. Swansea put 5 past QPR, and Fulham minus their goalscorer did the same to Norwich.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 18, 2012, 05:37:46 PM
I'd just like to congratulate Steve Clarke, always conducted himself
with a quiet dignity whilst at Anfield. Best of luck to him for the rest of
the season!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 05:51:35 PM
like we have said a million times, Tes.......the problem is at the top.

Dude, how does it change? It's like an alcoholic denying he's got a problem, nothing can change until he does.

Well nothing will change until Henry and Werner admit to what the problem is and install a group of people to totally run the club. The Glazers made sure that the same team at the top remained in place after they took over.

We need football people on the board, to advise the business brains on the subject matter that they've chosen to build a business on. A CEO, with knowledge, influence and negotiating skills.

It's hard to imagine how they could even go about selecting a manager. It's an amateur mistake to be impressed with someone do well after one season in the PL. Being impressed is fine and to a degree, understandable, but look beyond the surface and what do you find?
Maybe they thought, having seen Hodgson and Dalglish that experience was not the way to go, but not all experienced managers are like Roy, and most chairmen wouldn't touch a bloke who's been out of football for a decade or more, no matter how successful he'd been previously. Those two are probably the worse examples of an experienced manager you could possibly use and aren't representative of the likes of Rafa, Van Gaal, Ancellotti etc.

As I've often said a clued up CEO would have advised them to sit tight last Summer and wait for the inevitable to happen at Chelsea.

Why aren't the likes of Dein or Parry non-executive directors, on the board in an advisory position?

They know they know nothing of football and seem little bothered about immersing themselves in it to try and learn as quickly as possible, so it just exasperates me so much that they haven't brought in the required personnel to make their lack of knowledge a non-factor. It all starts with football, not money. The business aspect stems from the football, it's fueled and fed by the football, yet the board and senior administration simply doesn't reflect the fact that the business they are in is football.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 18, 2012, 05:54:43 PM
I'd just like to congratulate Steve Clarke, always conducted himself
with a quiet dignity whilst at Anfield. Best of luck to him for the rest of
the season!

Totally agree, Ed. Even when he was sacked there was no fireworks in the media. He's not brought it up in the build up to the game and I doubt it will be a factor in the aftermath. He deserves to do well for the sort of football man and person that he is.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 19, 2012, 01:16:54 AM
Dude, how does it change? It's like an alcoholic denying he's got a problem, nothing can change until he does.

Well nothing will change until Henry and Werner admit to what the problem is and install a group of people to totally run the club. The Glazers made sure that the same team at the top remained in place after they took over.

We need football people on the board, to advise the business brains on the subject matter that they've chosen to build a business on. A CEO, with knowledge, influence and negotiating skills.

It's hard to imagine how they could even go about selecting a manager. It's an amateur mistake to be impressed with someone do well after one season in the PL. Being impressed is fine and to a degree, understandable, but look beyond the surface and what do you find?
Maybe they thought, having seen Hodgson and Dalglish that experience was not the way to go, but not all experienced managers are like Roy, and most chairmen wouldn't touch a bloke who's been out of football for a decade or more, no matter how successful he'd been previously. Those two are probably the worse examples of an experienced manager you could possibly use and aren't representative of the likes of Rafa, Van Gaal, Ancellotti etc.

As I've often said a clued up CEO would have advised them to sit tight last Summer and wait for the inevitable to happen at Chelsea.

Why aren't the likes of Dein or Parry non-executive directors, on the board in an advisory position?

They know they know nothing of football and seem little bothered about immersing themselves in it to try and learn as quickly as possible, so it just exasperates me so much that they haven't brought in the required personnel to make their lack of knowledge a non-factor. It all starts with football, not money. The business aspect stems from the football, it's fueled and fed by the football, yet the board and senior administration simply doesn't reflect the fact that the business they are in is football.

Tes, it is quite straightforward, our owners have a choice - either they take the running of one of Europe's top clubs seriously, or else they sell up at the end of the season.

fans and media, are going to start asking some serious questions of our owners, come Christmas and the new year.  I would like (as I have said several times this summer) for them to leave. 

They have arrogantly treated their UK-based investment as a pet-project......and any major decisions have been bizarrely taken by themselves, despite f.eck all knowledge of football, premiership, or Europe.

In America, fans are much more subserviant......they take what they get.

But our yankee owners are in for a major surprise.  In Britain we do not lie down.....well not yet anyway......we do not dock our cap to the Trumps, Bushes and Hicks of this world. 

As you say above, like an alcoholic, THEY have to look in the mirror and admit that they are the ones with the problem.  I do not see that happening.  I think they are so well oiled/groomed with slick PR, as to not look arrogant.  But in their core, I think it is arrogance.

I think (and this is not the first time I have said it) that Brent may well be even worse than Woy or Wenny.

Brent and the yanks are badly advised, if they think the Kop is gonna stay silent this season, if we are not competing.

The yanks should sell up and leave. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 19, 2012, 01:29:31 AM
I hope that fat cad Dowd dies in cancer. Two non penos and a non-existant sending-off won it for cad-Clarke. You could also say they had two men off-side in the first situation on their third, whereas we were wrongfully called off-side in open play in the first half. They'll get relegated, we won't so fork you Clarke you worthless cad.

Other than that we were weak (as per usual) in the last third. It's early days for the team but until the wrongful sending off we were the only footballing team on the pitch. They got a very very flattering scoreline.

How you naive Rafa lovers dare to make this bold and negative reactions based on one game is beyond me. You just won't rest til you get your  Spanish bitch back, will you?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 19, 2012, 02:22:52 AM
Also, I think it's beneath the dignity of Liverpool fans to use condescending and belittling names for our manager. I really don't see the point in it, unless you want to hurt and damage the club.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 19, 2012, 02:53:32 AM
Thought Dowd was generous to West Brom (most of it was to the letter
of the law though, interpreted perhaps in a somewhat strict fashion but
generally correct). Anyway, away from home I expect the team to get on
with it and not fall apart in such shocking fashion. No fight whatsoever for
the 3 points after the sending off. Worse still no re-organisation or regrouping.
Just terrible!

I think West Brom were a credit to their new manager, full of spirit and
an honesty of effort in the final third (sure there was some cynical stuff from
the centre halves but it's a game for men).

I could lay into the team but we could be in deep doo doo given the next 4 fixtures
so I'm keeping schtum... :'(
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 19, 2012, 03:42:43 AM
I hope that fat cad Dowd dies in cancer. Two non penos and a non-existant sending-off won it for cad-Clarke. You could also say they had two men off-side in the first situation on their third, whereas we were wrongfully called off-side in open play in the first half. They'll get relegated, we won't so fork you Clarke you worthless cad.

Other than that we were weak (as per usual) in the last third. It's early days for the team but until the wrongful sending off we were the only footballing team on the pitch. They got a very very flattering scoreline.

How you naive Rafa lovers dare to make this bold and negative reactions based on one game is beyond me. You just won't rest til you get your  Spanish bitch back, will you?

think you used enough dynamite there, Butch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHXK2t50S-8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHXK2t50S-8)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on August 19, 2012, 07:46:09 AM
Not many positives but considering we have Citeh, Arsenal and Manure in the next 4 we'll have to up our game considerably...in many ways they're the perfect introduction for Rodgers which will test him to the utmost...we'll know in the next 4 if he can turn the team around... especially as we'll have no agger...

On the positive side we were showing signs of promise until Agger got sent off...perhaps this game highlights the absolute need to keep Agger and that it finally stops any more nonsense about selling him...
if anything this game with the pace (or lack of it) of the carra/skrtel partnertship shows that we desperately need another centre back as cover...

I thought Joe Allen played pretty well considering it was his first game and only just signed, Glen Johnson and Suarez were also pretty sound...

Pretty sure taking off Lucas for Joe Cole will never be repeated...

Agree with the panel that Suarez should not be played as the main striker...but just behind...what that means for Gerrard, who was pretty woeful today, is anyone's guess...on the right maybe...

Raheem Sterling not on the bench???? Bet he will be for the next game...should be playing..

You could say we were unlucky with the decisions...but confidence makes your own luck...or bad decisions should bring extra effort at the injustice of it all...

The next 4 games will be fascinating and will be a microcosm of our season...always interesting...and will no doubt be frustrating in equal measure...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 19, 2012, 10:46:16 AM
think you used enough dynamite there, Butch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHXK2t50S-8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHXK2t50S-8)

My apologies, Dude. If I was able to edit my post I'd do it. Harsh words on Dowd which I regret but it seems as tho he and Atkinson deffo have this Liverpool issue. Had a crayfish party on the street outside so wasn't able to see the game until it was late and I was really pissed. So again, my apologies to anyone who got offended by my post. I'll hang in shame.

As I said above  I really think we were poor in the final third and Suarez is struggling to get easy goals. I really thought we were the only team on the pitch until sending-off. I'm not surprised at all we collapsed with 10 men. Here we are with 2-3 new players settling into a side which is settling in to a new way of playing footy with 11 men on the field. No wonder they didn't come through doing it with 10.

I think there were a lot of positives to take from this game. It's obvious we'll come good sooner or later. We look to play a mobile passing game. We struggle to win the ball back quickly but that will come in time.

It was good to see Lucas get his first competetive game in almost 10 months. Gerrard I think was quite poor whereas Allen was Sublime. What a debut! I like that fella.

Other than that I think Agger proved once and for all why selling him would be a very stupid idea. It's hard to lose him for 3 games but that's Dowd the horrible cad for you. Calling a peno being that far from the situation is bad enough, going for a professional ... Worst of all I don't think we stand a chance of winning an appeal. So it'll be an extremly unlucky start to the season for Brendan.

 



 

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 19, 2012, 11:27:25 AM
How you naive Rafa lovers dare to make this bold and negative reactions based on one game is beyond me. You just won't rest til you get your  Spanish bitch back, will you?

Plural? Who's asking for Rafa back, Martin?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 19, 2012, 11:30:55 AM
Agger's out for 1 game. A straight red for violent conduct is 3, but Agger was sent off for preventing a goalscoring opportunity which is only 1 despite it being a straight red.

Still it's one game too many when we're facing Tevez, Aguero and Balotelli.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 19, 2012, 11:32:09 AM
Also, I think it's beneath the dignity of Liverpool fans to use condescending and belittling names for our manager. I really don't see the point in it, unless you want to hurt and damage the club.

Martin, it comes from the same place as your tirade against Dowd, frustration.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 19, 2012, 11:53:10 AM
Martin, it comes from the same place as your tirade against Dowd, frustration.

After one (1) game? As Brendan said, there will be highs and lows throughout the season. What's important for me tho, is that for the first time in many years I really thought we looked like a side wanting something with its footy. Under Rafa it wasn't as much what the players wanted as his robot-like regime demanded which eventually drained the players of confidence, weness, composure and ability to win games. I don't know how it'll pan out. I still have the feeling it won't take that long for the team to overtake Brendan's ideas altho results may not come as quickly, and more so, consistently as many of us would hope for. I'm frustrated the first defeat came this soon but now that it's overwith with, let's move on and take on City. It's probably better to play them now than in 3 months time.

Thanks for the info re. Agger's sending off. Thought a straight red always rendered a 3 game ban.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 19, 2012, 12:14:11 PM
Also, I think it's beneath the dignity of Liverpool fans to use condescending and belittling names for our manager. I really don't see the point in it, unless you want to hurt and damage the club.

Martin, Dude and I are of very similar ages and grew up in a time before the eighties changed everything. We're not interested in image but substance. We judge the book once we've read it.
Words are of little interest, it's actions that count. We're not the sort to be easily impressed and it's the club we're interested in, not any individual within the structure. Again, we didn't grow up in a time of celebrity, where that label gets applied far too easily and too losely.

Our club has been in a period of rapid decline and therefore we look at experience not potential as the way to halt that decline. We look for for someone with a proven record of success as it shows they have the knowledge required, and whilst any appointment carries a degree of risk, we see appointing an experience man as a way of minimising the risk. The time to appoint a younger man with potential is when the club has re-established itself in the top four and their is a solid base already in place for the novice to build on.

Rodgers may have been coaching in various capacities for 20 years, but being part of a coaching structure where you have limit responsibilities and are responsible for one part within the club as opposed to the whole thing is very different.
Football is littered with coaches and assistants who were revered for their ability as a coach or assistant but when they became the top man it all went wrong - Peter Taylor (Clough), Brian Kidd (Taggart, and now Mancini), Ray Harford (Dalglish at Blackburn) and to a lesser extent Roy Evans (manager of our all conquering reserves).

Rodgers longest managerial post is the two years at Swansea, Watford and Reading not working out too well for him. The irony is that Swansea may just have appointed a step up in Laudrup, who has a much longer managerial career than Rodgers. Also, Rodgers had good foundations to build on at Swansea, he didn't start from scratch and build them into the team we saw last season.

So not only is he starting from scratch with us, it is one of the toughest jobs their is in British football, maybe second only to the England job and in the context of our last three seasons and the less than stella running of the club over the last 20 years, it's become  even harder.

It would be a tough job for the most experienced of managers, the likes of Wenger and Taggart (from 10 years ago) would find it difficult, even with the experience they have to draw on. Insight and intelligence can get you so far, but experience and the knowledge gained through it, both good and bad, can not be beaten or worked around.

Rodgers is obviously a deep thinker, he's immersed himself in the game to a level a lot of other younger coaches haven't, but the thing he lacks over the likes of Ancelotti, is that he has no track record to prove that his theories actually translate in practice, and have been proven to work over a number of years.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 19, 2012, 12:41:59 PM
After one (1) game? As Brendan said, there will be highs and lows throughout the season. What's important for me tho, is that for the first time in many years I really thought we looked like a side wanting something with its footy. Under Rafa it wasn't as much what the players wanted as his robot-like regime demanded which eventually drained the players of confidence, weness, composure and ability to win games. I don't know how it'll pan out. I still have the feeling it won't take that long for the team to overtake Brendan's ideas altho results may not come as quickly, and more so, consistently as many of us would hope for. I'm frustrated the first defeat came this soon but now that it's overwith with, let's move on and take on City. It's probably better to play them now than in 3 months time.

Thanks for the info re. Agger's sending off. Thought a straight red always rendered a 3 game ban.

Rafa's methods work well in Spain, but didn't translate as well over here. I also think he lost something when he lost Pako, but he also had to spend too much time fighting against the owners and the likes of Purslow. Rafa's a good example of the fact that methods working well in one enviroment don't always translate well into another.

Nobody (I'm certain) actively wants Rodgers to fail. He fails, we fail and we simply can't afford to fall any further behind the likes of Chelsea, the Manchester clubs, Arsenal and Spurs. Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs, may actually end up coming backwards towards us for differing reasons, but we need to take advantage of that if/when it happens.

All we have is hope, and hope based on nothing that gives us solid reasons for hope. We're now out over the canyon with no safety net of proven experience and track record.
All we can do is hope that yesterday is a blip, an occassional happening that does take place when you attempt to make seismic changes (I agree with Rodgers on the theory that those things happen in that situation) and hope we can bounce back against City and before that against Hearts, and the Hearts game being very similar to the WBA one, in the fact that we are away against a team (that on paper) are a lower quality opposition than ourselves.

The biggest disappointment about yesterday was the mental side, the way we just fell apart after Agger's sending off. We've gone down to 10 men before, it happens, but to implode like that shows a worrying side to the team we've not really seen before. And the substitutions and re-organisation was worrying.

Look at the back three that were left. We could have gone to a back three, moved Downing over to the left and Gerrard to the right, fortifying the midfield as much as possible, not weakening it by replacing  Lucas with Joe Cole (what he was even doing on the bench is an argument for another day) and played Suarez off Borini, utilising Suarez's work rate to almost make a fifth midfielder when we didn't have the ball.

Hopefully, and I really am hoping, as is everyone (I'd imagine) that yesterday were justing teething troubles and a day where everything just went against us, all rolled into one and we won't see the like of again very often this season and that we build on the second leg against Gomel and the bulk of the performance against Leverkusen and take things forward starting with a good performance and a couple of goals against Hearts. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 19, 2012, 01:16:08 PM
My apologies, Dude. If I was able to edit my post I'd do it. Harsh words on Dowd which I regret but it seems as tho he and Atkinson deffo have this Liverpool issue. Had a crayfish party on the street outside so wasn't able to see the game until it was late and I was really pissed. So again, my apologies to anyone who got offended by my post. I'll hang in shame.

As I said above  I really think we were poor in the final third and Suarez is struggling to get easy goals. I really thought we were the only team on the pitch until sending-off. I'm not surprised at all we collapsed with 10 men. Here we are with 2-3 new players settling into a side which is settling in to a new way of playing footy with 11 men on the field. No wonder they didn't come through doing it with 10.

I think there were a lot of positives to take from this game. It's obvious we'll come good sooner or later. We look to play a mobile passing game. We struggle to win the ball back quickly but that will come in time.

It was good to see Lucas get his first competetive game in almost 10 months. Gerrard I think was quite poor whereas Allen was Sublime. What a debut! I like that fella.

Other than that I think Agger proved once and for all why selling him would be a very stupid idea. It's hard to lose him for 3 games but that's Dowd the horrible cad for you. Calling a peno being that far from the situation is bad enough, going for a professional ... Worst of all I don't think we stand a chance of winning an appeal. So it'll be an extremly unlucky start to the season for Brendan.

no worries, Martin.  I knew (from your post) that you had had a few beers and had posted very late.  I have done the same thing myself plenty of times, over the past 20 years.  You should see some of my wine inspired posts in usenet!   

our manager now faces a massive three months.  I fear for the club.  I hope this (yesterday) was early teething troubles and not a sign of what lies ahead. 

even when down to 10 men, WBA should not be ripping us apart.  They were slicing us open at will.  Very bad organisation after the sending off.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 19, 2012, 01:20:08 PM
two very good posts above, Tes.

I am on the way out here, so do not have much time to offer detailed replies.

We hope yesterday was mere teething problems.

Our next run of games is going to be a major test.  I hope our manager can sort things out.   We will quickly find out.  The best way to assess an individual, is to watch how they perform when under the cosh.  Our boss didn;t impress yesterday, in a second half, where he had to react to falling behind (and then losing a player).

 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 19, 2012, 02:43:58 PM
They have arrogantly treated their UK-based investment as a pet-project....
I noted in the commentary a reference to how Steve Clarke was sacked,
apparently "The girl from Human Resources rang him". Geeesus!

I also wonder about how the Pep Segura situation was handled. Those eve of
new season departures are generally bitter. Surprised the Beeb didn't ask the
gaffer about it i.e. "Can you tell us anything about the departure of Segura?"
Whatever about the merits of Mike Marsh (?), Segura leaving strips away another
piece of continuity for the club. Judging from this he was heavily involved with the
strategic end of things:

http://www.aliverpoolthing.com/2011/07/pep-segura-explains-strategy-behind.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+ALiverpoolThing+%28A+Liverpool+Thing

Our owners love that word stability, I'm seriously beginning to wonder...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 19, 2012, 05:59:56 PM
Can we afford to be looking for yet another manager after one season? It's only the first game but if this is a taste to come we'll have little choice, especially if we miss out on any type of European football. But then we'd still have the same people choosing the next man as chose Dalglish and Rodgers.

Rodgers has to be given seasons to see if he can do anything with the club. Yesterday was much more to do with the decline and mismanagement of the club than it was necessarily about tactics and poor managerial decisions.

As a group of players this teams time together looks passed its best. There is a stale feel about the squad. We have underperformed for seasons now yet the make up of the team is still the same all be it with average players being added every window. Thats not to criticise the new players, they need to bed in and attempt to hit the ground running but it would be unfair to judge them on yesterday.

Its sad to watch but the decline has accelerated right in front of our eyes. Records are being broken at Liverpool each year but all of the wrong ones. Its being 70 years since we suffered an opening day result as bad as yesterday. Poor player purchasing doesnt help. Last years transfers have officially failed to deliver and in spectacular fashion so we are back to relying on what was already there plus our two new additions this summer.

Too many continually under-performing players have survived when managers have been culled. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 19, 2012, 06:34:28 PM
One decision I was a little baffled by yesterday was before West Brom took their first penalty. We were 1 nil down, a man down, in less than 30 seconds Long would have the opportunity to put them 2 nil up. But before the penalty was taken what did we do. And in fairness you can only lay the decision at the feet of the manager. We take off Stewart Downing (not a bad thing people would say) but we bring on Carragher. How did that make any sense whatsoever? Why did we not wait the 30 seconds it was going to take West Brom to take their penalty. At least then we would have known whether we were chasing a 1 or 2 goal game. What good was bringing on Carragher if Long had scored. Carraghers going to be no good for chasing a game, hes going to be no good if you want to risk leaving the defence a man shy to go in search of a win.

Carraghers one of the players I was talking about in my post above that has survived too many managerial culls. Its not his fault yesterday but whats he still doing there. Managers in the past have contributed to their own downfall by sticking by and playing players that just arent good enough. I just hope Rodgers can see the likes of Downings and Carraghers contributions for what they really are and they are not just being picked because who or what they are. I said before I thought Pacheco outshone most in preseason. Downing didnt. Yet Downing has had the opportunity to start most games hes been available for up to now. Pachecos chance seems to be gone. But why, is it because Downing cost us 20 million, is it because hes an English international on paper. Otherwise Im not sure why he deserves to be there over Pacheco. We hear the term clean slate used whenever a new managers in town but that always seems to be directed at the overpriced under-performing players who are given countless chances to shine. Players like Pacheco are rarely afforded one. You can argue that I dont see the players perform in training and while thats true I still get to see players like Downing generally fail to perform week in week out. Rodgers needs to make sure he doesnt get caught up in politics at the club if hes to make positive inroads on the season ahead. That means picking players based on how they perform in training and more so matchdays over anything else.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 19, 2012, 07:24:25 PM
The Echo's take on Segura:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/08/19/pep-segura-quits-as-liverpool-fc-s-academy-technical-manager-100252-31655350/

I note the following quote regarding the promotion he was possibly in line for:

"However, those plans were shelved by the owners when Brendan Rodgers made it clear
that having total control would be key to him accepting the job."


Hmmm...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 19, 2012, 08:00:50 PM
Rodgers has to be given seasons to see if he can do anything with the club. Yesterday was much more to do with the decline and mismanagement of the club than it was necessarily about tactics and poor managerial decisions.

As a group of players this teams time together looks passed its best. There is a stale feel about the squad. We have underperformed for seasons now yet the make up of the team is still the same all be it with average players being added every window. Thats not to criticise the new players, they need to bed in and attempt to hit the ground running but it would be unfair to judge them on yesterday.

Its sad to watch but the decline has accelerated right in front of our eyes. Records are being broken at Liverpool each year but all of the wrong ones. Its being 70 years since we suffered an opening day result as bad as yesterday. Poor player purchasing doesnt help. Last years transfers have officially failed to deliver and in spectacular fashion so we are back to relying on what was already there plus our two new additions this summer.

Too many continually under-performing players have survived when managers have been culled.

Excellent summary Juan, and unfortunately what we feared has come to pass that the initial injection of funds designed to get us back into or at least challenging for the top four was trusted to Dalglish, and it was a one off injection of funds.
That not only has been wasted but the 'talent' it bought is weighing us down on the pitch and also financially on the payroll and balance sheet.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 20, 2012, 05:12:44 PM
Tomkins latest article from the Liverpool site. He actually uses nearly every excuse in the book. He even credits Rodgers with Swansea's win yesterday. Im half surprised he doesnt suggest asking Swansea for a share of the 3 points.

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/tomkins-just-97-4-per-cent-left


Tomkins: Just 97.4 per cent left


Columnist Paul Tomkins assesses a disappointing first weekend and explains why Liverpool fans can approach the second with a lot of hope despite the West Brom defeat...

First of all, it's true to say that the opening weekend habitually springs surprise results. Teams, and individual players, are at different levels of fitness - with those at international tournaments not getting a consistent pre-season - and within a month or two the league settles down to something that more closely resembles the true strength of the teams.

As the statistician and author Graeme Riley noted on my site, Everton lost 4-1 at home to Spurs in 1985 and went on to win the league (not that Liverpool are expected to be in the running in 2012-13). It was also pointed out to me that the one side truly constructed by Brendan Rodgers actually won 5-0 away at QPR yesterday.

It's also true that Bill Shankly started his tenure with a 4-0 defeat, and Pep Guardiola lost his first La Liga game in charge of Barcelona to little Numancia. So the long-term picture doesn't always reflect the start.

(Note: I'm not saying it's therefore a good thing to start with a defeat; just that it doesn't always have much of a bearing. On the whole, then yes, the title winners will generally win more opening games than they lose, but that's because overall, they will win far more games than they lose. But teams regularly improve after poor or indifferent starts.)

"It's a marathon, not a sprint" is a cliché because it's true. The season is for Kiprotich, not Bolt.

It's also true that, up until the dismissal of Daniel Agger, the Reds were playing well, but with the familiar story of chances not being taken, and the opposition scoring out of the blue. I read that after 55 minutes, at which point Agger was sent off, Liverpool had completed 333 of 372 passes, compared to 135 of 183 by the home side, and also that Allen's passing rate in the first half was 97%. Rodgers' men were creating some clear cut chances, but they weren't putting them away.

Aside from Gera scoring with a quite brilliant and un-savable shot, it all seemed like a professional, controlled away performance. Luis Suarez was absolutely terrorising the Baggies' defence, but alas, kept narrowly missing the target. And in fairness to the home side, West Brom did look dangerous on the break, without really testing Reina.

What happened after Agger's dismissal was not pretty, but chasing the game when a man down on a scorching summer day was never going to be easy. The Reds got stretched at the back, and spaces were opening up, but you can't really judge a team too accurately when they're down to 10 men in those circumstances. West Brom used the numerical advantage well, it has to be said, but they were happy to play on the break.

Until the sending off, the Reds' pressing had been good - very fast and intense, although on a couple of occasions the defence looked too eager to instantly win the ball back rather than jockey. But Agger's red card seemed to knock the stuffing out of the players, and any hopes of a comeback were dashed by the second penalty award. (What is it with penalties at the Hawthorns? That's four conceded there in the past 18 months.)

I have to say that I thought the refereeing was incredibly inconsistent. I don't understand how the West Brom players could deliberately, and forcefully, foul their opponents without bookings - including two cynical examples of 'taking out' Suarez on the edge of their box - but every little slip or slightly late tackle by a man in a red shirt ended with a booking. There were several similar situations for both sides, where the away player got booked and the home one let off. The first penalty was for a foul that actually took place just outside the box. I've got no complaints with the second penalty decision, but at the other end, Martin Kelly was wrestled to the ground and nothing was given. These things happen, but it can affect results.


It will obviously take time for Brendan Rodgers to form a side that consistently fits his image, but any defeat hurts. Sometimes it smarts more on the opening day, as you've been looking forward to the game for months, and it's the only sample you can draw from (although we have had a taste in the Europa League, in which the Reds had been excellent at home to FC Gomel).

Despite the defeat, I thought Joe Allen looked very impressive in the first half, before the Reds were a man light. His control and passing were first-rate, and he exudes composure. Beside him, Lucas had performed a miracle just to be starting games so soon after his cruciate injury.

Fabio Borini had a quiet game against West Brom, but he's someone who can convert chances when they fall his way; at the Hawthorns the ball never did break his way, even when drifting infield to take up good central positions. His movement is very good, so he should find himself on the end of chances in future games.

The young Italian is a model professional, having come from a family of athletes for whom dedication was a byword. Carlo Ancelotti compared him with Filippo Inzaghi, so there's real potential there.

New winger Oussama Assaidi, as someone who on average scored a league goal every three games at Heerenveen, will also hopefully help add some cutting edge up front, although he, like Borini, may need time to settle. The Moroccan international looks an exciting talent, and someone who has been improving year on year, but he may have to start his Liverpool career as a sub, looking to make an impact.

It's been said that Liverpool desperately needed a good result against West Brom with such a tough run of games coming up, but as we saw last season, sometimes it's 'easier' to get results against the better teams, when the atmosphere lifts the players, and the expectation is a little less rampant.

To do well this season, Liverpool simply need to rack up a certain number of wins, and it doesn't really matter if it's against the 'easy' teams or the supposedly tougher ones; come May, if the points tally is healthy, then that's all that counts.

There will always be games that, at the end of any given season, are looked back on with a sense of "if only...", but sometimes putting in an incredible amount of effort in one game leaves less in the tank for the next one, no matter who the opposition is; and had things indeed been different, games that were won might instead have been lost.

In what is clearly another transitional season, as new players arrive and a new manager instils a new system of play, Liverpool will have their downs as well as ups, but hopefully enough of the latter to feel that, as the spring arrives, things are moving in the right direction.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 20, 2012, 05:41:39 PM
Tomkins latest article from the Liverpool site. He actually uses nearly every excuse in the book. He even credits Rodgers with Swansea's win yesterday. Im half surprised he doesnt suggest asking Swansea for a share of the 3 points.
Agree, he's too compromised anyway, writing for the official website, hardly
objective. I found that article plain patronising. It'd be different if he was down
the training ground watching the team and came with some proper insight, but
he's seen the same game as the rest of us and we'll make up our own minds in
the months to come. In the meantime, i'm not bothered with the literary Prozac
which he peddles these days.  :)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 20, 2012, 07:29:43 PM
There are some that feel that saying anything that is not super smiley positive is not being a real fan. Pretending that everything is perfect when you can see that it isn't, but turning a blind eye anyway, at least to me, is wrong.

The official site is becoming a parody.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 20, 2012, 09:13:44 PM
I have yet to be approached to write for the official site.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 20, 2012, 10:29:42 PM
I have yet to be approached to write for the official site.

There's a surprise.  :D    Me too, I suspect the Royal Mail lost the letter.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 20, 2012, 10:36:09 PM
I have yet to be approached to write for the official site.
I thought it would be beneath you after appearing on Oprah  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 20, 2012, 11:47:54 PM
I thought it would be beneath you after appearing on Oprah  ;D

I though it was Grand Ole Opry, not Oprah.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 21, 2012, 12:30:49 AM
 ;
Agree, he's too compromised anyway, writing for the official website, hardly
objective. I found that article plain patronising. It'd be different if he was down
the training ground watching the team and came with some proper insight, but
he's seen the same game as the rest of us and we'll make up our own minds in
the months to come. In the meantime, i'm not bothered with the literary Prozac
which he peddles these days.  :)

 ;D

His insight is based around seeing the best out of everything, telling us 150 what ifs and diluting statistics to paint a picture that never was. I used enjoy the odd article of his but now Ive had enough. Seeing that for years he has written copious amount of articles about how the stats say we are far better than the scoreline or Premier League points totals have suggested and how the future for the team is bright why dont we now take stock and judge whether his statistical genius and bright sided predictions from times gone by have lived up to that golden future he painted time and time again. The answer is No, from a team perspective we are actually worse off than hes ever predicted and we've never got to where he said we would be. The guys a glorified excuse maker whose now employed by the club to make excuses in a long winded, nicely written manner.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 21, 2012, 04:59:04 AM
There's a surprise.    Me too, I suspect the Royal Mail lost the letter.

I thought it would be beneath you after appearing on Oprah

I though it was Grand Ole Opry, not Oprah.

that day, as we waited for our respective interviews,  for the official site Tomkins was endlessly waffling on.

I had made the simple mistake of asking him "how's things?"

it was more a greeting on my part, than a genuine question.

but Tomkins went on to tell me, in 180-page-report level detail, of how things were swimmingly delightfully positive.  He even pulled out graphs and percentage data, to highlight his points.   Apparently he had never had it so good.

I was delighted for him, enough to tell him to go and foxtrot himself.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 21, 2012, 09:32:08 AM
Martin, Dude and I are of very similar ages and grew up in a time before the eighties changed everything. We're not interested in image but substance. We judge the book once we've read it.
Words are of little interest, it's actions that count. We're not the sort to be easily impressed and it's the club we're interested in, not any individual within the structure. Again, we didn't grow up in a time of celebrity, where that label gets applied far too easily and too losely.

Our club has been in a period of rapid decline and therefore we look at experience not potential as the way to halt that decline. We look for for someone with a proven record of success as it shows they have the knowledge required, and whilst any appointment carries a degree of risk, we see appointing an experience man as a way of minimising the risk. The time to appoint a younger man with potential is when the club has re-established itself in the top four and their is a solid base already in place for the novice to build on.

Rodgers may have been coaching in various capacities for 20 years, but being part of a coaching structure where you have limit responsibilities and are responsible for one part within the club as opposed to the whole thing is very different.
Football is littered with coaches and assistants who were revered for their ability as a coach or assistant but when they became the top man it all went wrong - Peter Taylor (Clough), Brian Kidd (Taggart, and now Mancini), Ray Harford (Dalglish at Blackburn) and to a lesser extent Roy Evans (manager of our all conquering reserves).

Rodgers longest managerial post is the two years at Swansea, Watford and Reading not working out too well for him. The irony is that Swansea may just have appointed a step up in Laudrup, who has a much longer managerial career than Rodgers. Also, Rodgers had good foundations to build on at Swansea, he didn't start from scratch and build them into the team we saw last season.

So not only is he starting from scratch with us, it is one of the toughest jobs their is in British football, maybe second only to the England job and in the context of our last three seasons and the less than stella running of the club over the last 20 years, it's become  even harder.

It would be a tough job for the most experienced of managers, the likes of Wenger and Taggart (from 10 years ago) would find it difficult, even with the experience they have to draw on. Insight and intelligence can get you so far, but experience and the knowledge gained through it, both good and bad, can not be beaten or worked around.

Rodgers is obviously a deep thinker, he's immersed himself in the game to a level a lot of other younger coaches haven't, but the thing he lacks over the likes of Ancelotti, is that he has no track record to prove that his theories actually translate in practice, and have been proven to work over a number of years.

Cheers for that Tes, it's highly appreciated. I see where you come from and in fact I agree with much more than I disagree with. However, I do think it is important that he tries to impose himself verbally during the initial months. To me it equals will to lead and stake out  vision and that's exactly what we missed for over 2 decades. I think his reaction to the WBA defeat was sound. I'm sure he hurt more than anyone else and he'll have the team well prepared for Sunday's game. I was a tad disappointed, as Dude said above, about how he managed the team during the game.

On another notei t was good, of course, to see the Mancs lose to an extremly impressive (first hour anyroad) Everton side. Surely this was their best season-opener since the 1920's? I think it was important they lost. Somtimes the top teams spur on each other running away early managing to avoid defeats week in and week out leaving teams like ourselves long distanced before the end of October. Hopefully the defeats to the Mancs, Spurs and ourselves is a trend that will strike the other predicted topteams and keep the race tighter this season while, at the same time, include more teams as we'll need another 3-4 months to fully gel.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 21, 2012, 09:33:29 AM
I have yet to be approached to write for the official site.

Would you believe me if I told you I was once picked as one of five columnists to write for the offal?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 21, 2012, 09:36:33 AM
There are some that feel that saying anything that is not super smiley positive is not being a real fan.

There's nothing I dislike as much as the real-fan-attitude among many LFC-fans. I agree with this. Mine being upset above was more my rejection of granting Brendan condescending nicknames already. Let him at least make a twit of himself before calling him it.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 21, 2012, 03:07:17 PM
;
 ;D

His insight is based around seeing the best out of everything, telling us 150 what ifs and diluting statistics to paint a picture that never was. I used enjoy the odd article of his but now Ive had enough. Seeing that for years he has written copious amount of articles about how the stats say we are far better than the scoreline or Premier League points totals have suggested and how the future for the team is bright why dont we now take stock and judge whether his statistical genius and bright sided predictions from times gone by have lived up to that golden future he painted time and time again. The answer is No, from a team perspective we are actually worse off than hes ever predicted and we've never got to where he said we would be. The guys a glorified excuse maker whose now employed by the club to make excuses in a long winded, nicely written manner.
Yeah, he's in the business of supporting LFC. Originally, I too used to take
him seriously but it's precisely as you say he's wonderful at concealing the truth behind
positive thinking, optimistic glass half full analysis. I'd much prefer a biiter pill every now
and again than clutching at the tidbits of hope he sells. If my hunch is right, based on

1.) The abject Carling Cup final performance
2.) The utter farce against Newcastle last season
2.) The pathetic 60mins. in the FA cup final

and any number of woeful displays in the second half of last season, then there's a hell of a
lot wrong with current group assembled at the club. Not that you'd know it reading his stuff
where the upswing is constantly around the corner. Hell, it's almost an art form to string a fanbase
along for 38 games a season preying on their hopes and fears (generating hit after hit for the
only statistics he really cares about i.e. page viewing figures).  :)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 21, 2012, 05:28:58 PM
He has one of those 'instantly re-filling' glasses. It's to be hoped someone knocks it on the floor, and soon.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 21, 2012, 05:53:52 PM
Would you believe me if I told you I was once picked as one of five columnists to write for the offal?

 :D

woow.

was this selection during the Rafa era, Martin?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 21, 2012, 05:57:32 PM
There's nothing I dislike as much as the real-fan-attitude among many LFC-fans. I agree with this. Mine being upset above was more my rejection of granting Brendan condescending nicknames already. Let him at least make a twit of himself before calling him it.

but those of us who are long in the tooth (i.e. old  and having had a lifetime of experience) Martin, have been this way a hundred times.

our boss has already made a t.it of himself. 

he has behaved with arrogance and endless drivel.  And now opposing fans and th emedia are going t ohave endless ammunition to take the pi.ss out of him with    e.g. Bring on Barca, Are You Barca in Disguise?  etc etc.

in case you wondered, this boasting and self-promotion is most definitely NOT what Liverpool was about in our dominant era.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 21, 2012, 06:07:18 PM
Yeah, he's in the business of supporting LFC. Originally, I too used to take
him seriously but it's precisely as you say he's wonderful at concealing the truth behind
positive thinking, optimistic glass half full analysis. I'd much prefer a biiter pill every now
and again than clutching at the tidbits of hope he sells. If my hunch is right, based on

1.) The abject Carling Cup final performance
2.) The utter farce against Newcastle last season
2.) The pathetic 60mins. in the FA cup final

and any number of woeful displays in the second half of last season, then there's a hell of a
lot wrong with current group assembled at the club. Not that you'd know it reading his stuff
where the upswing is constantly around the corner. Hell, it's almost an art form to string a fanbase
along for 38 games a season preying on their hopes and fears (generating hit after hit for the
only statistics he really cares about i.e. page viewing figures).  :)

in life Ed, genuinely intelligent people are efficient with their words, when passing on their message.

Tomkins (whilst I agree with a lot of what he has said in the past) is needlessly long-winded.   He goes on and on and on and on.   After 2 or 3 paragraphs, I walk away.

And as for fan support.  I have been called many times on my support, in loads of forums.  I have been suspended, banned, tarred and feathered and accused of having no parents.

The way I see it, one can create a church (i.e. a forum) and worship the club, and everything about it.  In this scenario, there is really no need for discussion, interaction or debate.  Quiet reflection, chants and prayer, is the order of the day.

Or one can take things less seriously.....and have genuine interaction and debate.    This is my preferred style.

And yes, ok, the humour can take the pi.ss at times.  But respect is something that one earns, it can not be demanded.      Rodgers has achieved nada in the top flight.  There are many bosses like him, who consolidated their club's premiership status in the first season.  I will offer him my respect, when he deserves it. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on August 21, 2012, 06:28:09 PM
He has one of those 'instantly re-filling' glasses.

Where life is wonderful all the time...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ0VMDmGdx0
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on August 21, 2012, 06:29:42 PM
:D

woow.

was this selection during the Rafa era, Martin?

Martin unveiled....Chris Bascombe!!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 21, 2012, 06:34:45 PM
Martin unveiled....Chris Bascombe!!!

 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 21, 2012, 06:35:24 PM
Yeah, he's in the business of supporting LFC. Originally, I too used to take
him seriously but it's precisely as you say he's wonderful at concealing the truth behind
positive thinking, optimistic glass half full analysis. I'd much prefer a biiter pill every now
and again than clutching at the tidbits of hope he sells. If my hunch is right, based on

1.) The abject Carling Cup final performance
2.) The utter farce against Newcastle last season
2.) The pathetic 60mins. in the FA cup final

and any number of woeful displays in the second half of last season, then there's a hell of a
lot wrong with current group assembled at the club. Not that you'd know it reading his stuff
where the upswing is constantly around the corner. Hell, it's almost an art form to string a fanbase
along for 38 games a season preying on their hopes and fears (generating hit after hit for the
only statistics he really cares about i.e. page viewing figures).  :)

I used to take him seriously too, I also enjoyed his articles in the past. But life can be tough and every once and a while as you suggest its about facing up to the truth no matter how bad it is. Constantly looking at the club through rose tinted glasses doesnt do anyone any favours. Through all of his positivity we're still as far away from the title as ever. If you had subscribed to Tomkins way of thinking then surely you would have expected us to have won the league by now. As you say its most likely about page hits with him or else hes just very deluded.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 21, 2012, 06:39:36 PM
I will offer him my respect, when he deserves it.

Thats fair comment Dude.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 21, 2012, 06:42:19 PM
in life Ed, genuinely intelligent people are efficient with their words, when passing on their message.

Tomkins (whilst I agree with a lot of what he has said in the past) is needlessly long-winded.   He goes on and on and on and on.   After 2 or 3 paragraphs, I walk away.
I know the feeling. I think though the majority of the fanbase in Asia & the US just
want to feel good (even if it's complete denial of the obvious).

The way I see it, one can create a church (i.e. a forum) and worship the club, and everything about it.  In this scenario, there is really no need for discussion, interaction or debate.  Quiet reflection, chants and prayer, is the order of the day.
ROFL. Half those forums have more in common with totalitarian regimes than anything to do with the beautiful game.
I take my cues from Shanks & Cloughie and wouldn't be caught dead interacting with the po-faced halfwits that inhabit
those fascist love-ins!  :)

But respect is something that one earns, it can not be demanded.      Rodgers has achieved nada in the top flight.  There are many bosses like him, who consolidated their club's premiership status in the first season.  I will offer him my respect, when he deserves it. 
The Emperor's New Clothes and the Wizard of Oz are timely reminders of the dangers of believing the hype!  :)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 21, 2012, 06:48:14 PM
ROFL. Half those forums have more in common with totalitarian regimes than anything to do with the beautiful game.
I take my cues from Shanks & Cloughie and wouldn't be caught dead interacting with the po-faced halfwits that inhabit
those fascist love-ins!  :)
The Emperor's New Clothes and the Wizard of Oz are timely reminders of the dangers of believing the hype!  :)

I have been barred  from the two main major forums.

but it is ironic, that a moderator in one of those forums (the biggest) flamed me in usenet, in the liverpool fc forum....and wished me dead, in all sorts of ways.  He did not mind of it was from a drug overdose, car accident, or whatever.  He spelled all these things out in detail.    That was maybe ten years ago.  In modern times, he would have been in a police station and behind bars, for such posts.

That is the type of person that goes on to moderate.  Let's give him his real name - Dave. 

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 21, 2012, 07:31:29 PM
:D

woow.

was this selection during the Rafa era, Martin?

Noop, during the French Fool's era. Spent a lot of time there in the early years but finally got expelled, the same with RAWK, and the Road End forum. As Ed say, those places have more in common with medieval inquisition than anything related to this game. (Quick reminder I was the happiest red the day we signed Rafa.)

On a more serious note, I think you're harsh on my mate Brenny, dude.  Any manager behaving like Shanks or Sir Bob once did in this media crazy times wouldn't last long. Superseeding Kenny he knew had to communicate his ideas and visions to the fans in a confident manner. He may turn out a beaut but until he does the jury's out as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 22, 2012, 02:20:43 PM
Noop, during the French Fool's era. Spent a lot of time there in the early years but finally got expelled, the same with RAWK, and the Road End forum. As Ed say, those places have more in common with medieval inquisition than anything related to this game. (Quick reminder I was the happiest red the day we signed Rafa.)

On a more serious note, I think you're harsh on my mate Brenny, dude.  Any manager behaving like Shanks or Sir Bob once did in this media crazy times wouldn't last long. Superseeding Kenny he knew had to communicate his ideas and visions to the fans in a confident manner. He may turn out a beaut but until he does the jury's out as far as I'm concerned.

so you have been banned and barred a fair bit, Martin.

yes, RAWK and YNWA are almost like totalitarian regimes.  Unless you follow the party line and lick the boots of the key people, you will get haranged and bullied out of there.   Meaningful debate is all but impossible. 

As for Brent, one's talking is done ON the pitch.  The lad is easy to see through.  He is a bullsh.itter.  He is promoted way way above his station.

the likes of an aston villa, bolton, west ham or newcastle, would normally be the type of club taking a chance with such a young manager.

the way he is talking, you;d think he had a few league titles under his belt. 

but it goes beyond him.  I think our owners should sell up and leave.


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 22, 2012, 06:28:11 PM
but it goes beyond him.  I think our owners should sell up and leave.

They've two choices - invest in the expertise to run things how they need to be run, with them having merely an overseeing role, or sell to someone who can put in the required expertise.

The problem with American owners, especially those who already have a 'sporting franchise', is that they are used to a system that has a huge element of protectionism, allowing the owners to make money, additionally, movement of players and recruitment doesn't require any financial outlay. A very anti-capitalist system from the Kingdom of capitalism.
Non of the American owners seem prepared for this when they come in and don't seem to have a plan to deal with it going forward.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 22, 2012, 08:55:21 PM
He has one of those 'instantly re-filling' glasses. It's to be hoped someone knocks it on the floor, and soon.
Jesus, this is beyond parody...

http://tomkinstimes.com/2012/08/taking-comfort-in-statistics/

"But Liverpool fans have been seeking solace in statistics this week, as the post-mortem on their side’s surprisingly comprehensive defeat at the hands of West Bromwich Albion revealed some mixed results. Alan Hansen’s thinly-veiled criticism of Rodgers implored Liverpool’s defenders to “play the percentages,” but Andrew Beasley has noted some of the ways that the Reds performance was a statistical improvement on many of last season’s performances. For example, there were more than twice as many “final-third regains” vs West Brom in comparison with the 2011/12 average, and final-third passing accuracy was significantly improved.

It is fascinating that upon hearing such statistics our response is often to suggest that Rodgers had made many of the right decisions, and that we were unlucky to lose in this situation; that, on another day, we would’ve been victorious. There aren’t many of us who assume that improved final-third regains and passing accuracy must lead to a reduced chance of victory. In fact, we cling to such statistics as crumbs of comfort, as evidence that if the game was repeated a hundred times we’d win more often than not. Beez even concludes: “If they can manage all of that when losing 3-0, then there’s certainly hope for Liverpool this season yet.”

This is a fascinating idea: that the result isn’t necessarily the bottom line for those who see the bigger picture. Results can fluctuate due to a combination of circumstances and luck, but the search for the most logical and effective system must persist. "


I actually have no problem in just accepting that the opposition we're better motivated and
fearless in their pursuit of a result.

Maybe we should change the anthem to "When you walk through a storm, get out a big calculator..."
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 22, 2012, 11:18:50 PM
Jesus, this is beyond parody...

Maybe we should change the anthem to "When you walk through a storm, get out a big calculator..."

 ;D

Once they start giving points out for passes completed and winning possession back in the final third we'll be back amongst the Champions League places in no time.

Rodgers "system" is going to take time and Im prepared to afford him that but if we play like we did against West Brom too often we will be lucky to finish in the top half of the table. There were two new players in that starting 11, its not like the players didnt know each other, the performance was abysmal whether we had 10 men or not. It puts big pressure on our first home game against City next Sunday. We dont want to go on a run of defeats so early because they press would be all over Rodgers ramping up the pressure on him ten fold.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 23, 2012, 12:57:25 AM
Exactly, Dalglish should have dealt with the Agger sending off much better, and I thought Hodgson's substitutions just made a bad situation worse.
Hopefully when the new manager gets appointed we'll see an improvement in the play, afterall surely it can't be any worse than what Dalglish's team has been churning out, and surely there has to be more tactical awareness and improvement in the transfer market than we've seen from Hodgson. He certainly won't make the same mistake of just buying players he's worked with before, whether they're suitable or not and overpaying for the privilege.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 23, 2012, 10:08:01 AM
so you have been banned and barred a fair bit, Martin.

yes, RAWK and YNWA are almost like totalitarian regimes.  Unless you follow the party line and lick the boots of the key people, you will get haranged and bullied out of there.   Meaningful debate is all but impossible. 

As for Brent, one's talking is done ON the pitch.  The lad is easy to see through.  He is a bullsh.itter.  He is promoted way way above his station.

the likes of an aston villa, bolton, west ham or newcastle, would normally be the type of club taking a chance with such a young manager.

the way he is talking, you;d think he had a few league titles under his belt. 

but it goes beyond him.  I think our owners should sell up and leave.

I hear what you say my friend and I can't say there's nothing to it. At the same time, your uncritical and messianic praise of Rafa makes it hard to take in. No offense mate, but you never really came across as open to the fact that Rafa maybe wasn't the right man but rathe was the victim of vicious circumstances. In part he was I'll give you that. But something happened to him and the way I see it (altho I've only followed the game for some 35 years) he has nobody to blame for is failure than himself.

What I am trying to say here is that you may be proven right in time Brenny wasn't the right man. However, your guesses are just that while you make it sound as the objective truth referring to the glory days of Rafa. All this in good old Swenglish.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 23, 2012, 04:18:30 PM
Here we go again:

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/08/23/3324361/fulham-make-official-complaint-about-rodgers-pursuit-of

I mean whatever about his footballing know how, I just don't feel that BR is
an authoritative enough personality to manage the club at this current time.
He fills the young up and coming coach profile but will lack real authority and
credibility, both among the star players and media, until he actually wins things.

More swept along by the tide instead of parting the Red Sea. :(
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 23, 2012, 04:49:53 PM
Here we go again:

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/08/23/3324361/fulham-make-official-complaint-about-rodgers-pursuit-of

I mean whatever about his footballing know how, I just don't feel that BR is
an authoritative enough personality to manage the club at this current time.
He fills the young up and coming coach profile but will lack real authority and
credibility, both among the star players and media, until he actually wins things.

More swept along by the tide instead of parting the Red Sea. :(

Then we had the farce of NESN posting the 'article' about us having signed Dempsey. A know nothing American site talking about 'soccer' - a license for a cock-up.

Apparently, either as a result of this or an enquiry early in the window, which has never actually seen us make a bid due to the ridiculous price being asked by Fulham (however, let's not forget he is their star player) Dempsey got it in his head that we were signing him and he was going to play for us. I don't think we've deliberately unsettled or tapped up the player, at least not in the concerted and underhand way Newcastle having been chipping away over Carroll, but again it's down to the naivity of Werner and the ill informed and cluelessness of NESN and their attempt to report 'soccer news'. I doubt there's an informed, experienced, British football man on their editorial staff.
Whether that is enough for it to be regarded as the club as such having transgressed, we'll have to wait and see but it's another embarrassment either way for 'the club'.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 23, 2012, 06:24:32 PM
it's another embarrassment either way for 'the club'.
Yeah wish we could just stop with the embarrassing cock-ups  (it drains my enthusiasm for
supporting the club. Still, I suppose Newcastle were a laughing stock before they got their
act together in a way nobody would have thought possible).

Dug up an interview with Marshy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaK-KZETRmg

Comes across as a decent guy even makes reference to the idea that he "doesn't see himself
being here as a token Scouser!"


Whether he turns out to be just a mini-me for Rodgers ego or was worth the disruption caused with
Segura remains to be seen. Personally, I'd have arranged the deck chairs differently and promoted the
more experienced Segura and then given Marsh the opportunity to work together with Segura.

Maybe Brendan didn't feel he had anything he could teach Segura
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 23, 2012, 07:34:33 PM
Here we go again:

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/08/23/3324361/fulham-make-official-complaint-about-rodgers-pursuit-of

I mean whatever about his footballing know how, I just don't feel that BR is
an authoritative enough personality to manage the club at this current time.
He fills the young up and coming coach profile but will lack real authority and
credibility, both among the star players and media, until he actually wins things.

More swept along by the tide instead of parting the Red Sea. :(

Im actually starting to get a bit defensive for BR. In the last day or two Ive taken a look at some of our rivals sites, the likes of Newcastle, Fulham, Everton. They are all laying into Rodgers, some claiming hes definitely going to be the first PL manager to get the bullet. Others were castigating him for the handling of the Carroll deal or the fact that hes upset Fulham.

The Fulham complaint is apparently over comments he made over a month ago. Its actually apparently over the following which was said at a press conference ;

“Clint is a player we've inquired about, it is as simple as that,” Rodgers said. “Ian Ayre, our managing director, has spoken with the club to see what the position is. That is where we're at. He's a very talented player but we don't like to talk about other clubs' players.”

I dont personally see a whole lot wrong with that aside from the fact hes talking business publicly instead of wrapping up deals and then doing the talking. The likes of Fergie has said a whole lot more over the years and Ive never seen United complained to the FA. Likewise Harry used to shoot his mouth off regularly. If Rodgers is to be punished then I hope it sets a precedent. 

I think there is a snowball of abuse starting to build up behind Rodgers. I can understand Liverpool fans voicing their concerns or having their say but its external influences attempting to pour petrol on the flames and attempting to pile pressure on Rodgers that I have issue with.

This isnt at all directed at you Ed just in case it sounds like it is. I agree with alot of your concerns about Rodgers but listening to some of the abuse hes receiving on every other site Ive been on makes me hope he cant kickstart our season soon even more.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 23, 2012, 08:12:29 PM
Im actually starting to get a bit defensive for BR. In the last day or two Ive taken a look at some of our rivals sites, the likes of Newcastle, Fulham, Everton. They are all laying into Rodgers, some claiming hes definitely going to be the first PL manager to get the bullet. Others were castigating him for the handling of the Carroll deal or the fact that hes upset Fulham.

The Fulham complaint is apparently over comments he made over a month ago. Its actually apparently over the following which was said at a press conference ;

“Clint is a player we've inquired about, it is as simple as that,” Rodgers said. “Ian Ayre, our managing director, has spoken with the club to see what the position is. That is where we're at. He's a very talented player but we don't like to talk about other clubs' players.”

I dont personally see a whole lot wrong with that aside from the fact hes talking business publicly instead of wrapping up deals and then doing the talking. The likes of Fergie has said a whole lot more over the years and Ive never seen United complained to the FA. Likewise Harry used to shoot his mouth off regularly. If Rodgers is to be punished then I hope it sets a precedent. 

I think there is a snowball of abuse starting to build up behind Rodgers. I can understand Liverpool fans voicing their concerns or having their say but its external influences attempting to pour petrol on the flames and attempting to pile pressure on Rodgers that I have issue with.

This isnt at all directed at you Ed just in case it sounds like it is. I agree with alot of your concerns about Rodgers but listening to some of the abuse hes receiving on every other site Ive been on makes me hope he cant kickstart our season soon even more.
Surprised to see that it's any of other fans business who the manager of LFC is? No doubt they
become interested via articles/influences in the media. The grand theatre of the Premier League
orchestrated by Sky, newspapers desperate for circulation and websites hungry for hits. Twitter
is also very good for frenzies and mobs of baying, ill-informed reactionaries :)

From what I've seen and heard, I've yet to warm to the gaffer but wasn't thinking of judging his suitability
for the gig until I'd seen about 50 games (because in reality sacking the manager isn't an option!). Unfortunately,
bitching, moaning and venting about him may continue until he gets the basics right  :)

Transfers and managers aren't even the priority for me it's the other appointments/sackings that I've become
concerned about and a certain prevarication by the owners over the stadium issue. Tbh, my fears would be
allayed if they removed Ayre from his role and gave the captaincy to someone who represents the future of the
club. Then I could just relax and watch the footie  :)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 23, 2012, 10:58:02 PM
“Clint is a player we've inquired about, it is as simple as that,” Rodgers said. “Ian Ayre, our managing director, has spoken with the club to see what the position is. That is where we're at. He's a very talented player but we don't like to talk about other clubs' players.”


It's why no bid went in - the fee we were quoted was too high.  It's not our fault that we were ask to pay what we thought was a too high a price. That happens all the time. Dempsey has taken it on himself to decide he wants to move to Anfield. Tom Werner's answer was very poorly worded and NESN's article was an embarrassment for them but makes us guilty by association through our owners.

Rodgers' answer was as misguided and unguarded as Werner's. All Rodgers should have said was 'he's a Fulham player, therefore I have no wish to discuss him.

They both did a 'Arry. All that was missing was a wound down car window.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 23, 2012, 11:49:23 PM
Surprised to see that it's any of other fans business who the manager of LFC is? No doubt they
become interested via articles/influences in the media. The grand theatre of the Premier League
orchestrated by Sky, newspapers desperate for circulation and websites hungry for hits. Twitter
is also very good for frenzies and mobs of baying, ill-informed reactionaries :)

To be honest Im surprised by the anti Liverpool sentiment out there at the moment. There are alot of fans of more neutral clubs that have an opinion on ourselves and our manager now.

From what I've seen and heard, I've yet to warm to the gaffer but wasn't thinking of judging his suitability
for the gig until I'd seen about 50 games (because in reality sacking the manager isn't an option!). Unfortunately,
bitching, moaning and venting about him may continue until he gets the basics right  :)

I cant say I havent warmed to rodgers yet but the jurys out whether hes the real deal or a complete bluffer. Agreed he needs to be given 50 games and more to see if hes up to it. In fairness to him hes got a huge job on his hands, with the current squad Im not sure theres many managers that could do a whole lot of good without a major overhaul. My main gripe about Rodgers so far is that he talks too much. He initially said he wouldnt do any business in public but he hasnt stuck to his word.


Transfers and managers aren't even the priority for me it's the other appointments/sackings that I've become
concerned about and a certain prevarication by the owners over the stadium issue. Tbh, my fears would be
allayed if they removed Ayre from his role and gave the captaincy to someone who represents the future of the
club. Then I could just relax and watch the footie  :)

I said in a post a few days ago Ive started to get the vibe from the owners that I had under Hicks and Gillett. I know its a very different situation considering we are out of debt but after the H&G initial splurge on players along with all the talk of a spade in the ground within 60 days things started to go downhill pretty quickly. It may be not as bleak an outlook but I fear the American owners are starting to realise the scale of the job needed to make us successful again and Im no longer sure they are 100% fully committed if FFP cant be enforced.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 23, 2012, 11:51:25 PM
It's why no bid went in - the fee we were quoted was too high.  It's not our fault that we were ask to pay what we thought was a too high a price. That happens all the time. Dempsey has taken it on himself to decide he wants to move to Anfield. Tom Werner's answer was very poorly worded and NESN's article was an embarrassment for them but makes us guilty by association through our owners.

Rodgers' answer was as misguided and unguarded as Werner's. All Rodgers should have said was 'he's a Fulham player, therefore I have no wish to discuss him.

They both did a 'Arry. All that was missing was a wound down car window.

The website error was a farce. Someone should have lost their job over that.

Agreed Rodgers should have played the say nothing card but hes easily coaxed into talking.

As for Arry  ;D, he'll be missed on transfer deadline day alright.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 24, 2012, 12:11:22 AM
Agreed Rodgers should have played the say nothing card but hes easily coaxed into talking.

It's a touch worrying to be honest isn't it Juan. Not sure whether it's naivity, or the curse of modern times where everyone either is or wants to be a celebrity. There's so many things needing rebuilding and one of them is the quiet, respectful way we always carried out transfers.

Rodgers needs to issue a caveat at the beginning of a press conference that no question will be answered about another club's player and these type of questions will be frowned upon and the questioner will be treated in a less than favourable way.
The media can have it's story once there is actually one to write.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 24, 2012, 12:51:19 PM
To be honest Im surprised by the anti Liverpool sentiment out there at the moment. There are alot of fans of more neutral clubs that have an opinion on ourselves and our manager now.
Yeah, I've noticed that alright, which is precisely why I'd prefer a
quiet season with talking on the pitch. They shut up pretty quickly
when we give them nothing to talk about except are ability to get
results in football matches.

My main gripe about Rodgers so far is that he talks too much.
& he'd better shut up about Sterling too. Play expectations down majorly there imo.

I said in a post a few days ago Ive started to get the vibe from the owners that I had under Hicks and Gillett. I know its a very different situation considering we are out of debt but after the H&G initial splurge on players along with all the talk of a spade in the ground within 60 days things started to go downhill pretty quickly. It may be not as bleak an outlook but I fear the American owners are starting to realise the scale of the job needed to make us successful again and Im no longer sure they are 100% fully committed if FFP cant be enforced.
A cross between H&G and Lerner. They should, imo, have just installed someone with credibility
to run the club. There are to-dos with the vacancies left by Brukner, Comolli and Segura + nada on
the stadium. On the other hand they've scouted the City scouts :) (but they're on gardening leave?)
sorted out the Warrior contract. Maybe I'm impatient but they're not as dynamic and sure-footed as I
expected and when the fall back is just words.

I suppose I'm just waiting for a big statement of intent from them and surely that must be an
announcement on the stadium, in the meantime that yes man Ayre just doesn't inspire confidence. :)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 24, 2012, 04:18:06 PM
Ed, not too fussed about the amount of time the stadium decision is taking as it's a massive financial risk for a new stadium, and it's no good having a half full new stadium because the team is so poor and there's no cash to change it.
A refurb job is also full of problems. Aquiring the land then satisfying all the planning requirements and residents concerns is an incredibly difficult and complex process, and there's no point in rushing a decision for the sake of it.

It's the lack of any leadership from and the required knowledge on the board and the feeling of us having a budget administration, not fit for purpose is impossible to throw. Whether Comolli gets replaced in an alternative form as Ayre suggested in the immediate aftermath of Rodgers' appointment will be seen over time though I have my doubts we'll see anything.

Inexperience is rife, in both the football management and overall management at the club. That needs addressing but FSG don't seem to have the insight to realise it or the desire to invest in appointing the neccessary people. I hope we see a massive overhaul in all levels of scouting. That is going to be imperative if we are to stand any chance of making up for the lack of financial muscle.
Hopefully once the ex-Man City lot finish attending the flowers and get settled in at the club, they will start the massive changes that are required.
Again, it needs football people to do this and I hope FSG leave those who have been appointed to get on with it and their only involvement is to provide whatever resources are required. Any investment made should be saved many times over if the correct changes are made and the required structures put in place.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 24, 2012, 05:04:03 PM
To be honest Im surprised by the anti Liverpool sentiment out there at the moment. There are alot of fans of more neutral clubs that have an opinion on ourselves and our manager now.
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/strips/premiershits/1321.gif

Classic  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 26, 2012, 08:51:51 AM
August
18 West Brom (A) 0-3
25 Man City (H)

September
1 Arsenal (H)
15 Sunderland (A)
22 Man Utd (H)
29 Norwich (A)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 26, 2012, 01:26:51 PM
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/strips/premiershits/1321.gif

Classic  ;D


 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 26, 2012, 01:29:19 PM
August
18 West Brom (A) 0-3
25 Man City (H)

September
1 Arsenal (H)
15 Sunderland (A)
22 Man Utd (H)
29 Norwich (A)

Tough start Dude. Makes it an even tougher second half of the season with big away days.

You would start to get the feeling that with the clever use of the transfer window and the fact Everton have managed to hang on to the likes of Fellani they could be this seasons Newcastle. Its early days but theyve started well.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 26, 2012, 01:49:39 PM
Daily Mail are claiming that Sterling will start today.

Id be very surprised if it were true considering he played a full game at Hearts. Id also be worried the City defence would cut him in half.

Thing is though hes playing better than any of our senior players. Dilemma time for Rodgers.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 26, 2012, 02:03:06 PM
Tough start Dude. Makes it an even tougher second half of the season with big away days.

You would start to get the feeling that with the clever use of the transfer window and the fact Everton have managed to hang on to the likes of Fellani they could be this seasons Newcastle. Its early days but theyve started well.

I fear for the club, Juan.

we have so many weaknesses across the club's structure, (owners, chief exec, board members, manager, asst manager, scouts, players) that woeful decisions have been made now for several years. 

there is now terrible pressure on us to get a result today.   And pressure is not a good thing to have on you, when you need to play good football.

my fear is that come the end of September, we will have played six premiership games and have amassed only 3 or 4 points.....and then have a very different battle on our hands (from the one we had planned pre-season).
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 26, 2012, 02:13:48 PM
Daily Mail are claiming that Sterling will start today.

Id be very surprised if it were true considering he played a full game at Hearts. Id also be worried the City defence would cut him in half.

Thing is though hes playing better than any of our senior players. Dilemma time for Rodgers.
No sense burning the kid out, imo. He has a lot to learn. It was nice to give him a taste against
Hearts and he did very well at a hostile away ground for a 17 year old.

Starting him today lets the genie out of the bottle and cranks up the hype machine too much.
Even if he were to be brilliant, we deny him that space to grow into the role slowly. I mean if
the bar becomes dazzling against the champions, everything else he does this season would
be compared against that.

I'd think it a stupid, short-sighted decision whether he played well or not. It's a long season and
we want this kid to be at another level come May, not burned out at Christmas!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 26, 2012, 02:19:46 PM
I hope we give City utter Hell today, bite into them and give them nothing.

Need to watch Kompany & Toure on corners and free kicks!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 26, 2012, 03:23:07 PM
Line-ups confirmed Sterling starts. Im delighted to say Coates also starts. Even if he has an absolute howler theres only one way of judging if the Uruguayan is good enough and thats by giving him games. At least Rodgers can see Carras done. Ed I completely agree with your reservations about playing Sterling but in fairness to the lad his performances have put him in contention whereas our more senior players have flopped. The likes of downing need to take a long hard look at themselves.

Liverpool Starting XI : Reina, Kelly, Johnson, Coates, Skrtel, Lucas, Allen, Gerrard, Borini, Suarez, Sterling.
Subs : Jones, Enrique, Carroll, Henderson, Carragher, Shelvey, Downing.

Manchester City Starting XI : Hart; Zabaleta, Kolo Toure, Kompany, Kolarov; De Jong, Yaya Toure; Milner, Tevez, Nasri; Balotelli.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 26, 2012, 03:48:39 PM
Line-ups confirmed Sterling starts. Im delighted to say Coates also starts. Even if he has an absolute howler theres only one way of judging if the Uruguayan is good enough and thats by giving him games. At least Rodgers can see Carras done. Ed I completely agree with your reservations about playing Sterling but in fairness to the lad his performances have put him in contention whereas our more senior players have flopped. The likes of downing need to take a long hard look at themselves.

Liverpool Starting XI : Reina, Kelly, Johnson, Coates, Skrtel, Lucas, Allen, Gerrard, Borini, Suarez, Sterling.
Subs : Jones, Enrique, Carroll, Henderson, Carragher, Shelvey, Downing.

Manchester City Starting XI : Hart; Zabaleta, Kolo Toure, Kompany, Kolarov; De Jong, Yaya Toure; Milner, Tevez, Nasri; Balotelli.
We'll see, kid'll be tired though methinks!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 26, 2012, 04:56:50 PM
So far so good. We started slow, its taken us the best part of 25 minute to get the passing game going but I think we've done well since midway through the first half.

So far Sterling looks like hes taking his chance like a duck to water. As youve said Ed he has to be managed but with our current squad and with his showing so far it will be impossible not to use him more. Hes done more than Henderson and downing combined in the last year.

Again early days but Allen looks like a quality signing. His simple passing and ability to keep the ball are impressive.

A good half but we have to keep it up.

One point about Suarez, he is very indecisive in and around the box with the ball. He sometimes doesnt really know what hes going to do next which often means the opportunity comes to nothing. I wish at times instead of trying to turn the defender inside out 10 times he just sticks a boot through it.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 26, 2012, 06:26:20 PM
Improved performance from last week though Rodgers has a lot of work on the defence ahead of him. I hope we're not going to see the return of the old Martin Skrtel.

Great to see Rodgers having faith in the younger lads. Judging by his selections and substitutions Rodgers has the same opinion of Kenny's transfer business as we do.

We still need a goalscorer if possible. So far I'm still thinking that the best we can hope for is to qualify for the EL through the league, but even that would be progress from the last two seasons.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 26, 2012, 06:47:27 PM
Improved performance from last week though Rodgers has a lot of work on the defence ahead of him. I hope we're not going to see the return of the old Martin Skrtel.

Great to see Rodgers having faith in the younger lads. Judging by his selections and substitutions Rodgers has the same opinion of Kenny's transfer business as we do.

We still need a goalscorer if possible. So far I'm still thinking that the best we can hope for is to qualify for the EL through the league, but even that would be progress from the last two seasons.

I looked at the bench before the game to see Downing, Carroll and Henderson and thought - what a weak bench!
To think we spent the bones of 70 million on it. What you could buy with that money now. Its not worth thinking about.

As for the defence its really a pity because up to that I thought they played very well. Skrtel was having a huge game. But thats just him. Granted its not usually that blatant but there is always the possibility for him to do something unpredictable.  I said it in another thread he gifts a goal scoring opportunity to the opposition nearly every game.

Coates had his moments but all in all I thought he did well too. Theres no need to revert back to Carragher in Aggers absence.

Sterling is a start in the making, he puts players like Downing and Henderson to shame, he plays with no fear and the maturity youd expect from the two Ive mentioned.

All in all a good performance from the team and imho a solid start from Rodgers tactically. Hopefully upwards on onwards from here.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 26, 2012, 07:11:06 PM
much much better.

team played very impressively.

depressing however to gift the champions their point, after two dreadful defensive errors.

it came to kelly at a very awkward height......but really, at this level, he should be doing a lot better.

And Skitrail's was even worse, unforgivable hair-brained passback from 40 yards, not even looking up.  FFS we have gifted City back into the game ONCE, FFS be more careful next time.   But nope, barmy defending, barmy pass back.

overall impressive performance.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 26, 2012, 08:51:11 PM
much much better.

team played very impressively.

depressing however to gift the champions their point, after two dreadful defensive errors.

it came to kelly at a very awkward height......but really, at this level, he should be doing a lot better.

And Skitrail's was even worse, unforgivable hair-brained passback from 40 yards, not even looking up.  FFS we have gifted City back into the game ONCE, FFS be more careful next time.   But nope, barmy defending, barmy pass back.

overall impressive performance.

I have Reina at fault for the first. His contact should have been much firmer. Good to see having played Carra on Thursday, Rodgers put his trust in Coates, who considering their attacking quality, handled himself well, especially when you factor in his lack of PL experience. As Juan said the second half of the season is going to have a run of three massively tough games, we need to make sure we take advantage of the good situation we put ourselves in today, twice.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 26, 2012, 09:58:02 PM
there is now terrible pressure on us to get a result today.   And pressure is not a good thing to have on you, when you need to play good football.

Good fornicating thing then we played good footy. In fact, we outplayed them in every department, bar individual mistakes. I was gutted with the result but with a few hours to think the game through I'm thrilled by our performance. Here we are, a shattered club, a team looking for a new identity and we go on and drive them over. They had absofuckinglutely nothing beside what we gave them.

I'm not gonna get this performance see me lose my judgement but if we can perform this well already I know we're gonna make some great improvement on the last 5 years this season.

Also, Dude, did you question Rafa after two games, let alone, two seasons of robotic, "I rather draw than win a game" crap footy? No, I didn't think so either and there goes your credibility as far as mocking "Brenny" goes". So there.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 26, 2012, 10:17:08 PM
I would also like to give a special mention to Sterling who owned much of the first half. He did more in half than that useless tit Downing did in a whole season. Surely he must start for us now altho - given his age - he'll perform very inconsistently. His attitude and desire's pricless though. THAT's exactly what this team and club's been yearing for, for so long. And Allen of course. What a brilliant signing. Bestest since Alonso (tho Rafa was just lucky on that one).

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on August 27, 2012, 12:25:01 AM
Gotta say that we played pretty well...ok skrtel made the balls up gifting tevez but it happens...could have been a whole lot worse...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 27, 2012, 12:45:52 AM
Gotta say that we played pretty well...ok skrtel made the balls up gifting tevez but it happens...could have been a whole lot worse...

I guess if we look at it in a positive way, then the signs are good. City didn't take us apart, we were the architects of our own downfall. If we can stop making daft individual errors then it could be promising.

The worrying thing is that we have been poor defensively in both league games so far. If we can tighten up at the back without losing the attacking threat we've shown, then great.
It's a test of Rodgers' coaching to see whether he can improve us defensively. In that respect it's a shame that FSG got rid of Clarke before Rodgers was appointed. Whilst there's probably no evidence to suggest that our strong defensive performance was down to him in any way, there's no doubt that so far in the two league games we haven't look as sure at the back as we did when he was here.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 27, 2012, 01:03:44 AM
I have Reina at fault for the first. His contact should have been much firmer. Good to see having played Carra on Thursday, Rodgers put his trust in Coates, who considering their attacking quality, handled himself well, especially when you factor in his lack of PL experience. As Juan said the second half of the season is going to have a run of three massively tough games, we need to make sure we take advantage of the good situation we put ourselves in today, twice.

Two mistakes but Tes as you say we have to learn from it. If it makes Skrtel think before he makes a backpass again this season then hopefully he will have learned something. IF he can cut out the concentration lapses we could be defensively solid enough considering we havent strengthened that department this summer.

There were alot of positives Id take from the way Rodgers handled things. Its the first game we have started to see Rodgers style rub off, we played very well. When Lucas came off after a few minutes I was expecting a defensive minded substitution but it was good to see us reshuffle and bring on Shelvey. Last season we possibly would have seen Spearing or Carragher come on in midfield. The willingness to give Sterling a run again a huge positive. Hes clearly showing better form than the likes of Downing and its good to see him rewarded with a start. I dont expect him to play every week, I just worry about who will take his place because downing certainly hasnt given the same assured quality performances.  Allen was another huge plus. The fact that Coates got a game with Carragher resigned to the bench shows that maybe Rodgers is going to give players their opportunity on merit and not because who they are. Very early days, I hope we can repeat that performance against Arsenal but despite being clawed back it was definitely a huge improvement already. I reckon Dude you would even agree for the first time in a while the team looked like it had balance!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 27, 2012, 01:12:24 AM
Surely he must start for us now altho - given his age - he'll perform very inconsistently. His attitude and desire's pricless though. THAT's exactly what this team and club's been yearing for, for so long.

With a performance like that you would expect him to be one of the first names on the teamsheet. But I think given his age he will probably used more sparingly than we would like. What Id worry about is who will take Sterlings place when hes not in the team because Downing hasnt proven to be an able replacement. Like Sterling we need someone who wont fail to deliver.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 27, 2012, 02:03:41 PM
I'm not gonna get this performance see me lose my judgement but if we can perform this well already I know we're gonna make some great improvement on the last 5 years this season.

Also, Dude, did you question Rafa after two games, let alone, two seasons of robotic, "I rather draw than win a game" crap footy? No, I didn't think so either and there goes your credibility as far as mocking "Brenny" goes". So there.

listen Martin, my credibility is fine......yours however has been on the line, ever since craving the dismissal of rafa benitez (and us struggling ever since).

rafa benitez took us to number one ranked club in Europe....and two CL finals.........despite knee-jerkers, toys from pram tantrum throwers, and judases (like you) shi.tting all over him.

we played excellently yesterday and I hope we can continue doing so (especially when away from home and when we have to change tactics).  Falling behind at WBA suggested that Swansea fans had a point (when they suggested Brendan struggled away from home)

but getting our first point of the season, and against last year's premiership champions, is hardly sufficient reason to start preening yourself, and counting your chickens, and firing abuse.

unlike you, I want the club to succeed regardless of who the manager is. 

I do not worship individuals.  Instead I give respect linked to the quality of product and achievement.

Brendan Rodgers has a long way to go.  I hope that he takes the club forward.  And I hope that he learns to fall out of love with microphones and learns some humility.

But we played well yesterday.  And that is recognised.  Hopefully we can go on a run, and plant ourselves in the top section of the table.  Time will tell.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 27, 2012, 02:05:14 PM
And Allen of course. What a brilliant signing. Bestest since Alonso (tho Rafa was just lucky on that one).

you just cannot stop knocking Benitez, can you.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 27, 2012, 02:18:09 PM
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/27/article-0-14B40733000005DC-993_468x335.jpg)

like for last year's penalty, City claim they were hard done by, for the freekick award that led to Suarez's goal.

but from the pic above, it looks like a clear hand-ball.

the lad looks like he was caught in the midst of doing the hokey-kokey.


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 27, 2012, 02:21:31 PM
you just cannot stop knocking Benitez, can you.

Come on Dude, that was a joke, or at least a poor attempt at it. I was sure even you could tell.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 27, 2012, 02:27:39 PM
I still think (despite yesterday's great team performance) that we will struggle to score the number of goals that we need.

Suarez, great chance maker that he is, is not a centre-forward.  He is nowhere near clinical enough. 

I wonder if Borini is good enough to lead the line.  I am unsure of his past.  But we need someone else (i.e. not Suarez) to convert our chances.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 27, 2012, 02:41:04 PM
but getting our first point of the season, and against last year's premiership champions, is hardly sufficient reason to start preening yourself, and counting your chickens, and firing abuse.
Under the circumstances, with Lucas going off and Agger suspended, we did ok and
the effort couldn't be faulted. Early early days. Young Allen has a cool head, Stevie ran
his heart out, as did Suarez, Skrtel scored a bullet (should be doing it more often, imo).

Hopefully there are signs that we do have an amount of depth and a good spirit in the side.

Let's not kid ourselves though, there was a lot of hairbrained stuff, giving away possession
needlessly, not enough slowing the game down and controlling it. Anyway there was nothing
approaching what Lucas did to them last season which was wrestle the game off them and
assert dominance. The manager should be heartened by the performance the lads put in but
disgusted by the manner we threw it away.

We move on and hopefully have learned something but not getting carried away at all (Southampton
I'm sure we're equally spirited against them last week).
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 27, 2012, 02:57:22 PM
I still think (despite yesterday's great team performance) that we will struggle to score the number of goals that we need.

Suarez, great chance maker that he is, is not a centre-forward.  He is nowhere near clinical enough. 

I wonder if Borini is good enough to lead the line.  I am unsure of his past.  But we need someone else (i.e. not Suarez) to convert our chances.

Yepp, yepp, yepp. This I agree with wholeheartedl. I always thought Suarez was brought in to play in a role similar to Kenny. But seeing as Borini is the essential alternative, and my hones belief is Brendan did not sign him as a center forward, the current squad leaves him with few alternatives to playing Suarez in the middle. Here's hoping we can get Dempsey.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 27, 2012, 03:05:12 PM
Under the circumstances, with Lucas going off and Agger suspended, we did ok and
the effort couldn't be faulted. Early early days. Young Allen has a cool head, Stevie ran
his heart out, as did Suarez, Skrtel scored a bullet (should be doing it more often, imo).

Hopefully there are signs that we do have an amount of depth and a good spirit in the side.

Let's not kid ourselves though, there was a lot of hairbrained stuff, giving away possession
needlessly, not enough slowing the game down and controlling it. Anyway there was nothing
approaching what Lucas did to them last season which was wrestle the game off them and
assert dominance. The manager should be heartened by the performance the lads put in but
disgusted by the manner we threw it away.

We move on and hopefully have learned something but not getting carried away at all (Southampton
I'm sure we're equally spirited against them last week).

I agree with much of that Ed. With respect to the question of controlling games my personal guess is we're som six months short of that. To me it is apparent that the players are thinking footy, i.e., it's not "in them" just yet how to act, move and pass. As the season unfold we'll get more and more fluid and thus more capable of controlling games. But more than anything we need goals and players able to score goals. I think this will come if we can get a few wins.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 27, 2012, 06:20:59 PM
I agree with much of that Ed. With respect to the question of controlling games my personal guess is we're som six months short of that. To me it is apparent that the players are thinking footy, i.e., it's not "in them" just yet how to act, move and pass. As the season unfold we'll get more and more fluid and thus more capable of controlling games. But more than anything we need goals and players able to score goals. I think this will come if we can get a few wins.
Ok we'll be patient then and absorb a few more system related errors (open the pod
bay door HAL) through gritted teeth  ;D

TAW do a good Gerrard discussion round the 30 minute mark!

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2012/08/podcast-a-good-draw/
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 27, 2012, 06:38:08 PM
Dude, did you question Rafa after two games, let alone, two seasons of robotic, "I rather draw than win a game" crap footy?

do you watch much football.

rafa performed miracles at valencia and was very successful - beating Real Madrid and Barcelona to two la liga titles.... and winning a UEFA Cup (in his three seasons).    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBgzZ1OQPM4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBgzZ1OQPM4)

brendan won the play-off place final, beating Reading to get out of the old second division.   
playoff final - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQkXtw7vucI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQkXtw7vucI)

so there is/was far less reason to question rafa......his CV is far superior.

but let's focus on what we believe in.  Let us build on yesterday's performance and see where it can take us.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 27, 2012, 07:28:10 PM
By the end of September we'll know how this season will work out. By then we'll have played Sunderland away, Norwich away, Stoke home, Reading home and Everton away. Those games are more season shaping than the Arsenal and Man Utd games.

Then we'll have an idea whether we're likely to need to win a cup in order to get European football or whether there's a possibility of getting it through the league. It'll will give us an idea whether Rodgers does indeed struggle away from home and/or has a plan B - the two man gripes Swansea fans had with 'his style'.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 27, 2012, 09:27:58 PM
We matched the Champions yesterday with a weaker team on paper. Yes, there was no Aguero, but we were without our best defender. It's the team performing at a higher level than the sum of it's parts. It's going to take this, plus smart buys that prove to be better than their fee would suggest, but most importantly and probably the hardest part, we'll need to perform at a consistently high level and not turn up just for the big matches.

Joe Allen doesn't look like the type that 'can't be bothered' with the lesser teams (something that has been levelled against Gerrard), and hopefully with Sahin in there it will make sure Lucas' performance levels don't drop either.

Even if our overall play is like that all season, we've still got to sort out the problems of scoring goals and keeping them out (without the level and style of playing dropping off at all). It's a huge challenge up against squads that are bigger, have a greater depth of quality, and where the players and in some cases the manager have been there longer. Newcastle's squad is probably similar to ours in terms of length of time spent together. Their advantage is the players that they brought in last Summer form the heart of the team. Ours are either on the bench or on their way out of the club.   
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 28, 2012, 12:27:43 PM
do you watch much football.

rafa performed miracles at valencia and was very successful - beating Real Madrid and Barcelona to two la liga titles.... and winning a UEFA Cup (in his three seasons).

Which is why I was the happiest fucker around when we signed him. His Valencia side is one of the best footy teams I've ever seen. Their 1-0 at Bernabeu is perhaps the single most beautiful game of fooball I've ever seen during the almost 35 years I've been watching this game. Madrid had like 70 % of the possession yet the feeling was they were being totally and utterly outplayed by Valencia. Too bad he lost the plot once he won the CL. In fairness he wasn't helped by G&H being in charge but the signs were there quite early he would not do a Valencia all over again at Anfield. Also, he never really understood what it takes to win the PL. His man-management skills nex to zero (e.g. alienating Xabi for wanting to attend the birth of his child says it all really). A good manager he was for two years with us and probably the best tactician of his generation if not of all times. There's more to it than that tho. The fact he hasn't been offered a top job ever since may be an indicator of that.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 28, 2012, 01:42:51 PM
Oh, I also forgot to mention I thought Shelvey had his best game in red shirt. The day that fella will learn to hit the target the goals from midfield ratio will increase heavily, I tell yous.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 28, 2012, 02:56:55 PM
Too bad he lost the plot once he won the CL. In fairness he wasn't helped by G&H being in charge but the signs were there quite early he would not do a Valencia all over again at Anfield. Also, he never really understood what it takes to win the PL. His man-management skills nex to zero (e.g. alienating Xabi for wanting to attend the birth of his child says it all really). A good manager he was for two years with us and probably the best tactician of his generation if not of all times. There's more to it than that tho. The fact he hasn't been offered a top job ever since may be an indicator of that.

you say that: "but the signs were there quite early Benitez would not do a Valencia all over again at Anfield"

but I need to remind you that it took alex ferguson, the premiership's greatest ever manager, SEVEN years to win his first title at old trafford.

the fact that he has based himself in his house on the Wirral on merseyside, tells you that he loves the area.  he doesn;t need the money, or the hassle.  The pay off alone from liverpool and inter will have set him up nicely.

why do you have to look for alterior motives for his non-employment.....the bloke is exceptionally wealthy.  he can pick, choose or ignore offers......waiting for an interesting one.

as for alonso.....alonso had had a cr.ap season.  I understood fully his reasons for looking to get big money for him (Rafa was strapped for cash at that time).  And the would-be replacement, Gareth barry, helped City win the league a few months ago. 

But personally, I would not have sold Alonso.  But then again, I was not in the job, nor did i see all the elements of the decision making process.



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 28, 2012, 09:14:36 PM
you say that: "but the signs were there quite early Benitez would not do a Valencia all over again at Anfield"

but I need to remind you that it took alex ferguson, the premiership's greatest ever manager, SEVEN years to win his first title at old trafford.

Dude mate, what I mean by that is that after two seasons the development trajectory of the team started to decline. The team became increasingly static and predictable. In fact, it was during these seasons that we finally saw the lesser teams coming to Anfield knowing running their socks off would be enough to earn a point, at least. He also fell out with Pako after 11 years. The tinkering with the team also took pace at this time. I don't mind tinkering if you're good into man-management but when you're a very distant and cold personality (something players both in Spain and England testify to) it will only bring insecurity and confusion to the players which was often displayed when the players didn't turn up for him when he needed them. What goes around an'all.

Additionally, I would say that after the CL-triumph his stubborness set in fully. He was hellbent on conveying to the world he was right and it was wrong, rather than taking a step back and doing what was best for the club. On many ocassions he put himself before the club in an unprecedented manner (Parry, Fergie-rant, "I want sole control fight with G & H, etc). Finally, I would say that his inability to let go of the Spaniard within him prevented him from ever understanding that you ALWAYS go for a win in Ingurland (which I think permanently flaws the "track record" argument, if you catch me drift?).

Don't get me wrong my friend. As I've stated time and again I couldn't believe it was true when we managed to sign him as I rated him way way above, for instance, "the special one" and many others. I truly felt he was the right man to win us no. 19. I gave him 3 and a half seasons before I gave up. I think Brendan deserves at least half that amount of time.

It's nice he's living in the area and genuinely seems to love the city and its people. I don't think that's a strong argument to bring him back tho. He may be let in again but as it is he's been sat firmly in the freezer for sometime and what he did, or didn't rather, at Liverpool I think is the main reason for that.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 29, 2012, 02:25:08 AM
Puke!

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/tomkins-be-bold-be-brave

Two games in and he just can't help himself. It's a bit unfair, any fans out there 
being negative after 2 games are dubbed lunatics but surreally positive is fine...
The only bit i liked in the article was the 5 words he devoted to Henderson (who i
see as a bit of a dark horse and am hoping BR is doing a job on him by not playing
him so that the weight of the shirt feels lighter when he creeps back into the side
later in the season)

I'm not jumping to any conclusions and just watching the games. It seems a lot of
fans just can't help themselves by jumping on to a wave of optimism. We were
supposed to be under the radar this season, no talking and just roaring the team on.
Besides we've got f**k all to crow about, trashed by West Brom away from home &
threw away 2 points in our home game.

I'm not being over negative (ok, i am  :) ) here but City's first goal was a direct result of
a certain 17 year old letting Tevez in with a cross. I don't blame the kid at all but in the rush
to gush, it shouldn't be forgotten that getting a 1-0 would have been something to
genuinely be pleased with (3 points + a clean sheet).
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 29, 2012, 10:50:17 AM
City's first goal was a direct result of
a certain 17 year old letting Tevez in with a cross. I don't blame the kid at all but in the rush
to gush, it shouldn't be forgotten that getting a 1-0 would have been something to
genuinely be pleased with (3 points + a clean sheet).

actually Ed, as we started to break out of our own third, it was a certain captain marvel who stupidly gave the ball away.....City then came straight back at us, with Tevez running at our wing.

but agreed with you on article.....folks need to keep their feet on the ground.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Gurdeep on August 29, 2012, 01:34:29 PM
It'll be interesting to see how Rodgers integrates Sahin into the team.  Will he be played with Gerrard or will he be a direct replacement? Will he push Gerrard out to the right wing as Rafa did to incorporate Sahin? 

I have absolutely no idea about the loan signing as I've not seen him play but I understand he is a central midfield player.  Will he be able to contribute and bring a new dimension to the team?

Thoughts anyone?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Gurdeep on August 29, 2012, 01:48:19 PM
Found a bio on Sahin and may have answered my own question...lol


http://www.madridismo.org/article/nuri-sahin-5/ (http://www.madridismo.org/article/nuri-sahin-5/)

Nuri Sahin, a Turkish-German footballer just like Mesut Özil, plays in a variety of midfield positions for Real Madrid. His primary position is center midfielder, but he can also fill in as a defensive midfielder or a left-midfielder, although a weak right foot prevents him from doing much good on the right side of the midfield. Sahin has an extremely acute sense of the pitch, and this combined with his impressive accuracy and vision is what sets him apart from his peers.
 
Known by the nickname “The Pass Master,” Sahin has mastered the skill of efficient cross-field transfers, and his extreme precision with long-distance passes is a valuable asset to Real Madrid in a wide variety of strategic situations. Blessed with uncommonly acute vision and sense of space, Sahin can target a pass to cut through opposing formations, split the defense, and enable quick and unexpected plays that capitalize on rapid movement of the ball. In addition to his passing ability, which makes him an excellent midfielder, he is also described as a dead-ball specialist, and is a first-rate team player who always puts his squad first.
 
Having been acquired in the summer of 2011, Sahin is a recent addition to Real Madrid’s lineup, and he has yet to prove himself to head coach Jose Mourinho. Despite several impeccable performances for his national team (Turkey), Sahin has had trouble getting Mourinho’s eye and gaining his trust. In the first 9 months with the team, he has made only a few appearances, and his career with Madrid has yet to get off the ground. Sahin is, of course, not unique in this. Because Madrid attracts some of the top football talent from around the world, many players who would be stars on any other team – as Sahin is when he plays for Turkey – end up sidelined as a result of the long list of top-tier players with whom they share the Madrid roster. Still, many commentators hope that Sahin will get more chances to prove himself in the eyes of the side’s management before he becomes frustrated and seeks opportunity elsewhere.
 
Although he is a prime example of a midfield specialist, Sahin is sometimes criticized for having a lack of flexibility. He is decidedly one-footed, showing a pronounced preference for using his left foot, and has a fairly lackluster aerial game, perhaps as a result of his relatively small stature. Within the right context – dead center of the pitch with the ball at his feet – Sahin is a master. But he has trouble adapting to other situations, and this may be the reason behind Mourinho’s decision not to field Sahin in most games.
 
Bio and Career

Nuri Sahin was born in 1988 in Ludenscheid, West Germany, to Turkish parents. His early football career, which was enormously successful, was centered around the Borussia Dortmund team. Sahin started playing with Dortmund in 2000, at the age of 12, and quickly impressed his coaches, who saw enormous potential in the young midfielder. Rising quickly through the ranks, he graduated to the senior team at the tender age of 16, and became the youngest player ever to compete in the Bundesliga. On 25 November, 2005, he also became the youngest player ever to score in the league when he hammered one home in a match against Nuremburg.
 
After a brief loan period at Feyenoord (2007-2008), Sahin returned to Dortmund and became one of the team’s most important players, starting in all but one match during the 2009-10 season. The following season, he helped Dortmund in bringing home the Bundesliga title. In addition to this great honor for his team, Sahin achieved personal glory as well, as his seven goals and earned him the title of Player of the Season in 2011.
 
Following his spectacular 2010-2011 performance for Dortmund, Sahin caught the eye of Real Madrid, and the Spanish juggernauts quickly acquired him. During the 2011-2012 season, his first with Los Blancos, he has spent most of his time on the bench, due in part to pesky injuries sustained during the summer and early fall. He has, however, demonstrated that he can make a significant contribution to Real Madrid if given the opportunity in terms of minutes. During a December, 2011 appearance, one of the few times that Sahin has seen 90 minutes on the field for Real Madrid, he scored a header against Ponferradina to open up Madrid’s already commanding lead.
 
The move to Madrid was of course significant for Nuri Sahin on a professional level, but it also had a personal element to it – he is a long-time admirer of Cristiano Ronaldo and a fan of Real Madrid, and so earning a place on the team was an exciting prospect. For Sahin, playing with Real Madrid is a chance to play football at its highest level as well as an opportunity to work, train, and compete alongside his idols.
 
Sahin’s international career has been at least as successful as his club career, if not more so. Throughout his life, he has played for the Turkish national team, where he has earned the trust and support of his coaches and teammates. He was the winner of the Bronze Ball award for the 2005 U-17 World Cup in Peru, and has received personal accolades from several senior coaches and managers on the Turkish team. In addition to being the youngest player to have played and scored in Bundesliga, he holds the same honors on the Turkish team – ironically, the first goal he ever scored for Turkey was against Germany, the country where he was born.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 29, 2012, 03:01:39 PM
I have absolutely no idea about the loan signing as I've not seen him play but I understand he is a central midfield player.
Gives us a bit of depth in midfield and proper options i reckon he  kindof makes Adam a bit
dispensable if we can recoup most of the fee.

http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football-sport/487-seconds-of-magic-from-liverpools-nuri-sahin-set-to-terrible-music/

Whether we have enough bulk and energy with Hendo & Shelvey to round out the options...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 29, 2012, 03:24:12 PM
Excellent timing as Lucas is out for 3 months. The attacking line-up still looks short of goals and trying Downing ahead of Enrique at left back seems odd. The centre half position desperately needs to be looked at in January as Carra is out of contract in the Summer. Either that or sort out what we are doing with Kelly's position long term and Wilson.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 29, 2012, 04:15:58 PM
I have absolutely no idea about the loan signing as I've not seen him play but I understand he is a central midfield player.  Will he be able to contribute and bring a new dimension to the team?

Thoughts anyone?

like you, gurdeep, he is new to me.

but I take great faith from the fact that he won Player of the Year in Germany in 2010/11.....when dortmund won the title.

and when you recruit lads from barca or real madrid, they all have superb technical skills.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 29, 2012, 04:19:17 PM
The centre half position desperately needs to be looked at in January as Carra is out of contract in the Summer. Either that or sort out what we are doing with Kelly's position long term and Wilson.

unsure why rodgers has to tell the world that he wants to try downing at left back.....only puts additional pressure on the lad.   Actions/experiments often do not need any words.

carra is out of contract in summer....yehaaaaaa.

the 35 year old will either be opening a pub, or moving down to likes of darlington, to be player manager.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 29, 2012, 05:58:49 PM
unsure why rodgers has to tell the world that he wants to try downing at left back.....only puts additional pressure on the lad.   Actions/experiments often do not need any words.

In this case I dont mind Rodgers having his say. Downings had more than his fair share of chances and nothing seems to have worked, hes still rubbish. By right he should be shown the door.

carra is out of contract in summer....yehaaaaaa.

the 35 year old will either be opening a pub, or moving down to likes of darlington, to be player manager.

Not a minute too soon. Great servant to the club but in a lot of ways hes prohibited progress at the back in terms of the type of football we tried to play and by being chosen for games that other players should have played in. Managers seemed compelled to pick him.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 29, 2012, 06:18:35 PM
Puke!

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/tomkins-be-bold-be-brave

Two games in and he just can't help himself. It's a bit unfair, any fans out there 
being negative after 2 games are dubbed lunatics but surreally positive is fine...
The only bit i liked in the article was the 5 words he devoted to Henderson (who i
see as a bit of a dark horse and am hoping BR is doing a job on him by not playing
him so that the weight of the shirt feels lighter when he creeps back into the side
later in the season)

I'm not jumping to any conclusions and just watching the games. It seems a lot of
fans just can't help themselves by jumping on to a wave of optimism. We were
supposed to be under the radar this season, no talking and just roaring the team on.
Besides we've got f**k all to crow about, trashed by West Brom away from home &
threw away 2 points in our home game.

I'm not being over negative (ok, i am  :) ) here but City's first goal was a direct result of
a certain 17 year old letting Tevez in with a cross. I don't blame the kid at all but in the rush
to gush, it shouldn't be forgotten that getting a 1-0 would have been something to
genuinely be pleased with (3 points + a clean sheet).

Agreed Ed, two games in and it almost feels like its back to the old "this could be our year" talk.

If we weigh it up we have had one abysmal performance in the league and one very promising game. We've seen the team up their game for the bigger sides on many an occasion in the past. Whether we can repeat that sort of performance against Arsenal on Sunday we dont know yet. If after ten games into the season we have put in 7 or 8 performance akin to the City game then things might start looking up for the future of this team but until such a time that we have shown some sort of consistency whats the point in building ourselves up.

The thing is though whether we win or lose the next 10 games Tomkins articles will still be equally positive.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on August 29, 2012, 06:30:47 PM
It'll be interesting to see how Rodgers integrates Sahin into the team.  Will he be played with Gerrard or will he be a direct replacement? Will he push Gerrard out to the right wing as Rafa did to incorporate Sahin? 

I have absolutely no idea about the loan signing as I've not seen him play but I understand he is a central midfield player.  Will he be able to contribute and bring a new dimension to the team?

Thoughts anyone?

I wonder will there be enough room for himself and Allen considering both are deemed pass masters.

Its hard to expect big things from Sahin given the hype but like you I havent seen much of the guy.  I get the impression that Mourihno may be sending him on loan to gain experience in the hope that next season he could take over Alonsos role considering he hasnt signed a new deal.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 29, 2012, 07:52:42 PM
In this case I dont mind Rodgers having his say. Downings had more than his fair share of chances and nothing seems to have worked, hes still rubbish. By right he should be shown the door.
We'll see, seems completely unintuitive to me to put a lad who can't tackle and would have little positional
sense or pace at left back. I just don't get it. Call me old-fashioned but a wing back who can't block crosses
is just useless, imo (that's why i love seeing young Kelly in the side, blocks 'em crosses, Johnson has a bit
more class and is more assured and comfortable on the ball but i'm a fan of cutting out crosses).

Not a minute too soon. Great servant to the club but in a lot of ways hes prohibited progress at the back in terms of the type of football we tried to play and by being chosen for games that other players should have played in. Managers seemed compelled to pick him.
Never gave us an option on a corner too, the way i expect Coates to do.

Agreed Ed, two games in and it almost feels like its back to the old "this could be our year" talk.
I know. It drives me nuts! I read somewhere Chelsea had brought in £80 million of talent over
the Summer  :o We need to be consistently picking up points and refining our style of play to
get ourselves in a position where we can secure 6th and then think about 5th and 4th. Arsenal
at the weekend would represent a nice 3 points and i seriously hope we do it (payback for last
season!) but it's not as if Swansea are going to win the league on the back of two wins so game
at a time and Hearts up next.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 29, 2012, 09:34:06 PM
unsure why rodgers has to tell the world that he wants to try downing at left back

Exactly. With the media headlines about him 'saving his LFC career' the spotlight is on him every time he's played there, rather than it being more low key and put down to the manager 'tinkering' or just 'trying something'. Either way Downing isn't the subject, but rather the manager will bear any attention or reaction there 'may' be to it. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 29, 2012, 09:39:18 PM
Great, it's already started: http://www.express.co.uk/football/view/342770 (http://www.express.co.uk/football/view/342770)

From the same article: "I don't like to just give up on players. I always look to look at different ways you can play them."

That's not entirely true. What's the 'different way' Carroll's been used in or given a chance in. It just 'feels' like where Carroll's concerned the manager has a 'blind spot'.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 29, 2012, 10:11:45 PM
Great, it's already started: http://www.express.co.uk/football/view/342770 (http://www.express.co.uk/football/view/342770)

From the same article: "I don't like to just give up on players. I always look to look at different ways you can play them."

That's not entirely true. What's the 'different way' Carroll's been used in or given a chance in. It just 'feels' like where Carroll's concerned the manager has a 'blind spot'.
LOL, Setting Downing up to fail, imo, as well.

FFS, he was a perfectly decent winger before he joined us and is too old to be learning
new tricks. Either do a job on him to help him rediscover his form or ship him out.

I noted as well in the press conference following the City game, that he couldn't help himself
taking the credit for Sterling and the 6 or 7 weeks tactical work he had put in with him. I
would have taken note of his error leading up to the first goal and held off on the self-congratulatory
BS.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on August 30, 2012, 01:14:10 AM
Seems an incredible public airing of club business to me? wtf?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/liverpool-transfer-news-andy-carroll-1286207

  
“I don’t think we are in a position to have £35m players as third-choice strikers, or wingers who are on £5m-£6m a year. This is the challenge I have,” he revealed.

“You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see Andy Carroll has been a cover player for us.

“Some players here, even though you want to move them on, because of wages and other factors they are not going to just walk out the door. It’s going to take time to build that.”

“It’s great if some big players, like Theo Walcott and Daniel Sturridge, want to come here, but the reality is we are not in a position to do that at this stage,” he explained.

“The players being linked for the money mentioned I don’t have the ability to sign in this window unless we sell - if the money was raised, then yes we could do a deal.”

“I respect players and I’m precise with my information so they know where they stand. We all come into the profession knowing what the job is,” he said.

“Some of the development players may become starters. If you fit outside that I will tell you. Then it’s up to the player.†Does the player want to play football?

“There is still some thinking time. For some players it is hard to walk away from here. It’s an exciting time to be here. The ones who want to play will go, others will want to stay and fight.”
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 30, 2012, 03:50:07 AM
Not a minute too soon. Great servant to the club but in a lot of ways hes prohibited progress at the back in terms of the type of football we tried to play and by being chosen for games that other players should have played in. Managers seemed compelled to pick him.

agreed.

way too much political influence has our Jamie.

he was finished 2 or 3 seasons ago, at this level.

for some reason, he has managed to avoid being put out to grass.

wouldn;t surprise me if rodgers makes him a coach next summer.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 30, 2012, 01:07:43 PM
for some reason, he has managed to avoid being put out to grass.

Purslow was the reason. Giving him a 3 years deal at his age. No manager would be able to sell him, as no club would take on his wages and I doubt Carra would have any interest in a move. Still no need to play him, but then we can't afford to take on another centre half whilst still paying Carra to be book end.

Joe Cole, another inspired signing by Purselow.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 30, 2012, 08:50:52 PM
Purslow was the reason. Giving him a 3 years deal at his age. No manager would be able to sell him, as no club would take on his wages and I doubt Carra would have any interest in a move. Still no need to play him, but then we can't afford to take on another centre half whilst still paying Carra to be book end.

Joe Cole, another inspired signing by Purselow.

yes, Purslow made many feck-ups on the football side of things.

carragher should never have got another deal......or at most, a one year contract.

and as for joe cole......what a joke.  Joe wouldn't make my 5 a side team.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 30, 2012, 11:08:51 PM
We need to get Xavi Valero or  Jose Ochotorena,  preferably Valero and hopefully he'll bring the old Pepe Reina back with him.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 31, 2012, 12:22:40 AM
We need to get Xavi Valero or  Jose Ochotorena,  preferably Valero and hopefully he'll bring the old Pepe Reina back with him.

you;re a great speller, Tes.  I wish that I had your memory for names and spellings.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on August 31, 2012, 08:11:32 AM
I must admit I didn't see the whole game. In fact just the last 15 part from bits and pieces here and there. It was enough to to have me say Allen is the best signing for Liverpool in a very long time.

Other than that we're still learning and adapting to this new style, some players more than others (Carra constantly hoofing it won't get that many games in the League). Gerrard wasteful as ever. There is a movement and urgency about us tho I haven't seen in God knows how long. If we can keep buildning on it we'll come good eventually. I also thought last nite's game once and for all proved Suarez isn't and never will be an out and out goalscorer. Instead of killing the tie of from one of his many open chances it almost cost us an energydraining extratime. Something we did well to avoid ahead of Sunday's game. Suarez should never be played in the center again. He misses chances and doesn't create many for his teammates in that position so why persist?

I'm glad we're through but other than that we need to step things up a notch or 3 ahead of Sunday.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on August 31, 2012, 08:11:52 PM
I'm glad we're through but other than that we need to step things up a notch or 3 ahead of Sunday.

Surely not. I thought all was rosy. Martin, you sound less than convinced or have you been given special dipensation to naysay Brendan's handling of the team. If so, can any of us apply?  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 01, 2012, 01:21:28 AM
I must admit I didn't see the whole game. In fact just the last 15 part from bits and pieces here and there. It was enough to to have me say Allen is the best signing for Liverpool in a very long time.

you see a new player for a mere 15 minutes and that is long enough to conclude that he is the best signing made by the club in a "very long time"?

what, better than kuyt?  better than mereless?  better than maxi?

Title: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Gurdeep on September 01, 2012, 10:11:43 AM
In Martins defence Dude, Allen does look like a good player based upon his performance against city.  Controlled the ball well and played some excellent balls to his team mates.  However, this was only his second game in a red shirt and by all accounts his performance in the WBA game was not all that.  If he continues like he did against city then we most definitely will have a good player on our books but time will tell the reality of things.....
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 01, 2012, 11:06:46 AM
you see a new player for a mere 15 minutes and that is long enough to conclude that he is the best signing made by the club in a "very long time"?

what, better than kuyt?  better than mereless?  better than maxi?

Ffs Dude, you know damn well I didn't base that on 15 minutes alone but on his performances against WBA and City where I think he was our MoTM by a country mile.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 01, 2012, 11:39:45 AM
Allen has been magnificent for us and the heir apparent to Alonso. Only a fool will deny how brilliant he is and has been even in 180 odd mins for us.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 01, 2012, 11:53:28 AM
So we have our new Allenso. Let's see just how good a manager Rodgers is. He's certainly been left with a lot less to do his job with, however, if he concentrates his best 11 on the league and give the youngsters time in the cups, we may just find we add to the squad from within.

One thing is certain, we won't make fourth, at least logic doesn't indicate we will, so we're left with hope.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 01, 2012, 12:10:35 PM
I also thought last nite's game once and for all proved Suarez isn't and never will be an out and out goalscorer. Suarez should never be played in the center again.

I'd play Borini, or if/when Rodgers selects him, Morgan through the middle, with Suarez on the left, the position he played for Ajax.

So that just leaves the right side of the 3. Any ideas?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on September 01, 2012, 01:19:00 PM
I'd play Borini, or if/when Rodgers selects him, Morgan through the middle, with Suarez on the left, the position he played for Ajax.

So that just leaves the right side of the 3. Any ideas?

Options are limited Tes. It has to be Sterling, Pacheco. Can Assaidi play up top? Will we have to patch things up by sticking Gerrard up there. If we get any run of injuries we will be in serious trouble in term of personnel.

The promise of the City game has been somewhat dampened because whats gone on over the last few days.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on September 01, 2012, 01:55:37 PM
One positive I suppose, if there is a clause in Carrolls Hammers deal to say they have to sign him for 17 million if they stay up well then at least they are getting off to a flyer today by destroying Fulham.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 01, 2012, 03:37:27 PM
Ffs Dude, you know damn well I didn't base that on 15 minutes alone but on his performances against WBA and City where I think he was our MoTM by a country mile.

Allen has been magnificent for us and the heir apparent to Alonso. Only a fool will deny how brilliant he is and has been even in 180 odd mins for us.

he may or may not be a top acquisition.

I am just unclear how you can come to the grand conclusion that (after 2 league games) he is the best player that the club has bought in many a long year.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 01, 2012, 03:50:34 PM
I'd play Borini, or if/when Rodgers selects him, Morgan through the middle, with Suarez on the left, the position he played for Ajax.

So that just leaves the right side of the 3. Any ideas?

yes, same here.........Borini, as an experiment, at the head of the spear.....suarez on the left (with orders to fecking pass the ball more often, and not be so greedy), Tobenamed on the right.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 01, 2012, 03:55:57 PM
Can Assaidi play up top?

any time I have seen Assaidi, he has always been on the left wing.
Title: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Gurdeep on September 01, 2012, 04:07:27 PM
Headline over at skysports reads:

Andy Carroll starred on his debut for West Ham as he inspired the Hammers to a convincing 3-0 victory over Fulham at Upton Park.


ROFLMFAO.  Well done Liverpool, well done!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on September 01, 2012, 07:05:42 PM
Ffs Dude, you know damn well I didn't base that on 15 minutes alone but on his performances against WBA and City where I think he was our MoTM by a country mile.

Agreed he looks quite decent...great promise in them thar hills...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 01, 2012, 07:29:03 PM
The options for our front '3' appear to be:

Suarez
Borini
Sterling
Morgan
Assaidi
Yasil

Maybe Gerrard on the right.

Make what you can of that.  :(
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 01, 2012, 07:36:56 PM
In Martins defence Dude, Allen does look like a good player based upon his performance against city.  Controlled the ball well and played some excellent balls to his team mates.  However, this was only his second game in a red shirt and by all accounts his performance in the WBA game was not all that.  If he continues like he did against city then we most definitely will have a good player on our books but time will tell the reality of things.....

oh he does look like someone of good potential, gurdeep.

but some posters need to keep their feet on the ground.  The lad has played a mere two league games, and played well in one of those

for them to suggest that he is our best signing in years, is way over the top.  Far too early to make such a kneejerk conclusion.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 01, 2012, 07:42:56 PM
oh he does look like someone of good potential, gurdeep.

but some posters need to keep their feet on the ground.  The lad has played a mere two league games, and played well in one of those

for them to suggest that he is our best signing in years, is way over the top.  Far too early to make such a kneejerk conclusion.

Remember Reira against the Mancs? That turned out well. Cautious optimism is the way forward methinks.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 01, 2012, 07:48:26 PM
exactly, cautious optimism.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 01, 2012, 07:49:49 PM
I am just unclear how you can come to the grand conclusion that (after 2 league games) he is the best player that the club has bought in many a long year.

For the mere reason he delievered more hope, quality and effort in those two games than the combined signings since 2010 did between them?

Agreed Suarez should be played to the left. We need to get the pressure off him. It's obvious he cracks under pressure so why persist playing him through the center. Play Borini in the center til injured o January. What's there to lose really. As for the right we're thin so there's a lot of room for trying and trying again. Given our disastrous transfer window I can't see any option but to retreat to the borefest of 4-5-1.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 01, 2012, 07:52:56 PM
For the mere reason he delivered more hope, quality and effort in those two games than the combined signings since 2010 did between them?

bloddy ell......he sounds like maradona.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 01, 2012, 08:47:36 PM
bloddy ell......he sounds like maradona.

Yeah, if you look at him and then Downing, Henderson, Carroll etc. you'd be forgiven for thinking he's the second coming.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 01, 2012, 09:37:36 PM
bloddy ell......he sounds like maradona.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA983t3Rdzs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA983t3Rdzs)

Oooppsss, I misread the name, but the song's apt for us at the moment.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 01, 2012, 09:56:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA983t3Rdzs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA983t3Rdzs)

Oooppsss, I misread the name, but the song's apt for us at the moment.  :D

 :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 01, 2012, 09:58:49 PM
Yeah, if you look at him and then Downing, Henderson, Carroll etc. you'd be forgiven for thinking he's the second coming.

ah, so you have now downgraded allen, to now being merely better than downing, henderson and carroll.

that's more like it.

still nowhere near the class of maxi, kuyt or merless, as yet (if ever)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 02, 2012, 12:45:44 AM
The options for our front '3' appear to be:

Suarez
Borini
Sterling
Morgan
Assaidi
Yasil

Maybe Gerrard on the right.

Make what you can of that.  :(

Forgot Pacheco as his loan didn't go through.

8 players potentially for 3 positions. Numbers plenty - Quality 2
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on September 02, 2012, 01:03:56 AM
Forgot Pacheco as his loan didn't go through.

8 players potentially for 3 positions. Numbers plenty - Quality 2

Quality is one thing.

Having the managers trust is another because I dont believe there is many of those players that the manager rates well as a front 3 anyway.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 02, 2012, 03:01:36 AM
what about gerrard on the right side of the spear attack formation (is he good enough for such an attacking role?)



+++++++++++++++ Borini+++++++++++++++

++++++Suarez+++++++++++++Gerrard++++++
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 02, 2012, 03:34:27 AM
bloddy ell......he sounds like maradona.
Can't say I agreed with paying £15 million for him. But tbf i was
very impressed with his first interview, seemed quite humble.

Regards his performances, he's comfortable on the ball, seems to have a
cool head and is accurate in his passing and not likely to give the ball away.

Saw him take a nasty challenge against Hearts in his stride.

He's aware of defensive duties, i wouldn't consider him the best tackler but he
does get stuck in and can win back possession. He's a little short and slight though,
so he may be out-muscled and won't win big headers in the hole in front of the
back 4. That'd be my fear that despite his best efforts, a big lad would just steam roll
through him. Positionally, i haven't seen enough of his defensive work.

All in all he seems ok to me, but i'd have preferred to have had Lucas alongside him
for the first 3 months to take care of the really important defensive work. Given that
he's been thrown in there and is doing his best, more power to him!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 02, 2012, 12:19:40 PM
Quality is one thing.

Having the managers trust is another because I dont believe there is many of those players that the manager rates well as a front 3 anyway.

With the issue of trust I'd say that Pacheco is the obvious one, but I don't understand why he's forced Borini and especially Morgan to play wide right instead of down the middle. Suarez's postion would be better starting on the left, his Ajax position, so that Morgan especially and Borini (as his movement and positioning when getting in the box has looked more like that of a central striker) start centrally, then there's Sterling, Assaidi
and even Pacheco to play on the right. The left footers cutting in and right footers going down the outside providing a different angled delivery into the box or can indeed cut in themselves and the angle of any pass or through ball will again come from a different angle than the left footer (advantages and disadvantages to either a left or right footer playing on the right).

Rodgers will have to work with what he's got, but he has got three players for the central position (Borini, Yasil
and Morgan) and four for the wide positions (Sterling, Suarez, Assaidi and Pacheco), and he can mix up left and right footers on the left and right sides.
Gerrard additionally could play wide right and even in a setup where he starts up top centrally but moves across the whole front line with one of the wide players dropping in centrally or even an attacking midfielder being the furthest player forward centrally. In Dalglish's caretaker period Suarez, Dirk and Maxi all interchanged with no one player being the main central striker.
He will have to trust the young lads, but Sterling seems to have benefited from time on the pitch, as I think they all would.
Strongest team possible every league game, trying to build continuity there and then rotate and rest certain players in the cups, but use players he sees as still being here in 3 seasons time (all being well) in the EL to give them the European experience they need, then the FA and League Cups as he sees fit and depending on fitness and availibilty.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on September 02, 2012, 12:59:45 PM
With the issue of trust I'd say that Pacheco is the obvious one, but I don't understand why he's forced Borini and especially Morgan to play wide right instead of down the middle. Suarez's postion would be better starting on the left, his Ajax position, so that Morgan especially and Borini (as his movement and positioning when getting in the box has looked more like that of a central striker) start centrally, then there's Sterling, Assaidi
and even Pacheco to play on the right.

Very much agreed re Suarez Tes. Im not sure why he has to be the central player of the 3. I think Suarez is crying out for someone to take the goal scoring burden off his shoulders. If we could get one of the other forwards scoring regularly I think you will see Suarez score far more regularly. For Uruguay he has Cavani easing the pressure and hes always on the score sheet.

Interesting to see that we dont even have a replacement striker on the bench today. Looks like a good starting line up but crucially weak up front on the bench as such.

Liverpool: Reina, Johnson, Skrtel, Agger, Enrique, Allen, Sahin, Gerrard, Sterling, Borini, Suarez. Subs: Jones, Carragher, Shelvey, Downing, Henderson, Kelly, Coates.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 02, 2012, 02:21:42 PM
Shocking 47 minutes. Only Allen and Sterling try. Rodgers need to take Suarez off. He's a waste of space and need to stop his fornicating antics of waving his arms and constantly giving the ball away. Same with Gerrard. Worthless and responsible for their first. I haven't seen such a p**s poor Arsenal side since Wenger took over and they outplay us completely. I am appalled!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 02, 2012, 02:33:46 PM
Very much agreed re Suarez Tes. Im not sure why he has to be the central player of the 3. I think Suarez is crying out for someone to take the goal scoring burden off his shoulders. If we could get one of the other forwards scoring regularly I think you will see Suarez score far more regularly. For Uruguay he has Cavani easing the pressure and hes always on the score sheet.

Interesting to see that we dont even have a replacement striker on the bench today. Looks like a good starting line up but crucially weak up front on the bench as such.

Liverpool: Reina, Johnson, Skrtel, Agger, Enrique, Allen, Sahin, Gerrard, Sterling, Borini, Suarez. Subs: Jones, Carragher, Shelvey, Downing, Henderson, Kelly, Coates.

I'm presuming that Assaidi is somehow unfit. But where's Morgan, and why Carragher when there's Coates?
 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 02, 2012, 02:58:55 PM
So our only method of defending is to keep the ball. Therefore, having said that, why so careless with our passing and retention of the ball?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 02, 2012, 03:33:11 PM
Gutted, heartbroken and totally depressed. Whatever I said in pre-season this season's gonna be a total nightmare. Top half would be an achievement. Thanks to the amateurish management of this club we'll be happy if we score 40 goals this season. Totally pissed off with Suarez who more and more seem extremly overrated. His unforced error ratio was the worst I've seen in years.

Worst of all is we never looked up for it, no urgency, no will, no ideas. Fair enough we managed to create 3-4 chances the last 10 but it was too late. + Reina seems to make a howler every game. Worlclass goalie? Not anymore.

Sterling continue to impress. Allen totally outstanding. What a brilliant player he is. Again our MoTM by a country mile. No positives to take from this game. We have absolutely no goalscorer in this squad so this could be a total disaster.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 02, 2012, 03:40:52 PM
Xavi Valero needs to be brought back NOW. No excuses, just get it done.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 02, 2012, 04:16:42 PM
Xavi Valero needs to be brought back NOW. No excuses, just get it done.

So we need to strengthen at both ends of the pitch? I would agree with that.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 02, 2012, 04:19:18 PM
So we need to strengthen at both ends of the pitch? I would agree with that.

If we can't score then it's even more important we don't concede. Also Valero gives the strikers some help.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on September 02, 2012, 04:20:37 PM
So our only method of defending is to keep the ball. Therefore, having said that, why so careless with our passing and retention of the ball?

What a farce.

That was arguably our best team on paper out there. We flopped.

Whats worrying is there is little or nothing that can be done to improve it. Last season at least when we shouted at the likes of Downings inept performances we could call for Bellamy to replace him. When Maxi came off the bench he scored a goal or two.

I wasnt expecting a whole lot from this season but I still find myself majorly disappointed already.

Its hard to disagree with what Dude said in an earlier post, this club is on the verge of being done as a top side.

Sunderland away next, I see nothing to suggest why we will get anything out of that. If we get an injury during the international break or if anyone needs to be rested we automatically have to field a weakened side.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on September 02, 2012, 04:29:43 PM
Xavi Valero needs to be brought back NOW. No excuses, just get it done.

Horrendous mistake from Reina. You could forgive him if its a one off but his form is now alarmingly inconsistent. If its Valero we need to get Reinas form back to what it was then we need to get it done and get him in. I fear its more than that.

If I were a player of quality I would be afraid that a move to Liverpool could have the same effect on my form that its had for the likes of Suarez. He looks no better than having any run of the mill premier league striker up front. Its sad to see what his form has been reduced to because hes not looking like the same striker we signed. Imho the pressure on his shoulders to score goal is too much for him. There is nobody in the team that will help take that pressure away.

Ive said it before and its ridiculous but this club feels cursed.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 02, 2012, 04:55:17 PM
Horrendous mistake from Reina. You could forgive him if its a one off but his form is now alarmingly inconsistent. If its Valero we need to get Reinas form back to what it was then we need to get it done and get him in. I fear its more than that.

If I were a player of quality I would be afraid that a move to Liverpool could have the same effect on my form that its had for the likes of Suarez. He looks no better than having any run of the mill premier league striker up front. Its sad to see what his form has been reduced to because hes not looking like the same striker we signed. Imho the pressure on his shoulders to score goal is too much for him. There is nobody in the team that will help take that pressure away.

Ive said it before and its ridiculous but this club feels cursed.

Depressing words but nevertheless they smack of truth. There's no consistency on any level at this club and there hasn't been for a very long time. My Manc mate is trying to understand what's happening to us but I am lost for words. How we managed to fail to get a striker in is bordering on negligence. As you say Juan, there's nowhere to look for improvement. I also think that without a strong centerforward 4-3-3 is the wrong formation fo this squad. As the lack of goals in this squad is so alarming we'll spent most of the season to avoid relegation. I know it may sound overdramatic but I really really see us struggle to win more than 10 games this season.  That means we need to draw as many games as possible relying on a strong defence.

I don't see a way out of this than to sit it out and hope we can restructure the club over the next 5 years. I feel sorry for Brendan as he'll never get a fair chance to prove his worth at this club. He must feel badly sodomized.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 02, 2012, 05:52:45 PM
And to see the mancs come back from being down 2-1 to win 3-2 somewhat luckily in the last 5 minutes.....  :'(
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 02, 2012, 05:59:39 PM
We were awful.

We will struggle to reach the top 10 and I honestly mean this. The clubs that finished ahead of us last season have all improved their squads, have better depth and can rotate their strikers.

Then there are the likes of QPR, Swansea, Sunderland, Fulham and Stoke who have improved their squads and will be aiming to over take us.

We are so screwed big time.

Next set of fixtures are:-

Sunderland away - likely defeat
man u home - likely defeat
Norwich away - probable draw
Stome home - probable draw
Reading home - probable win
Everton away - likely defeat
Newcastle home - likely draw or defeat
Chelsea away - likely defeat

We are fucked. Where can you see wins coming from?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 02, 2012, 06:05:37 PM
We were awful.

We will struggle to reach the top 10 and I honestly mean this. The clubs that finished ahead of us last season have all improved their squads, have better depth and can rotate their strikers.

Then there are the likes of QPR, Swansea, Sunderland, Fulham and Stoke who have improved their squads and will be aiming to over take us.

We are so screwed big time.

Next set of fixtures are:-

Sunderland away - likely defeat
man u home - likely defeat
Norwich away - probable draw
Stome home - probable draw
Reading home - probable win
Everton away - likely defeat
Newcastle home - likely draw or defeat
Chelsea away - likely defeat

We are fucked. Where can you see wins coming from?

Absolutely nowhere, that's why Reina's lack of form is so alarming as it'll soon start to effect the back four negatively. Agree we'll struggle to finish in the top half this season Ed mate.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 02, 2012, 06:18:20 PM
The idea Rodgers has is absolutely right (Tactic wise) but it needs a whole lot of time for them to get used to it.

At moments you feel there is an idea of all those passing triangles but at the same time we don't really have all the right players for it plus it will take a long time for the players to absorb it.

We need a machine in the midfield and neither Allen-Gerrard or Sahin will provide that. I am thinking along the likes of M'Vila - that sort of player so that the likes of Lucas, Allen and Sahin can do their thing.

I loved Sterling's energy, and i think Borini /Suarez should have switched places.. Ironic this formation actually needs a player like Andy Carroll - i.e. a player who can receive the ball/head.. Suarez looked completely lost in the middle of the attacking trio ..he is way better coming from the wings were Borini was playing.

Also good showing by Borini who worked his ass off trailing back to help Johnson.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 02, 2012, 06:29:21 PM
The idea Rodgers has is absolutely right (Tactic wise) but it needs a whole lot of time for them to get used to it.

At moments you feel there is an idea of all those passing triangles but at the same time we don't really have all the right players for it plus it will take a long time for the players to absorb it.

We need a machine in the midfield and neither Allen-Gerrard or Sahin will provide that. I am thinking along the likes of M'Vila - that sort of player so that the likes of Lucas, Allen and Sahin can do their thing.

I loved Sterling's energy, and i think Borini /Suarez should have switched places.. Ironic this formation actually needs a player like Andy Carroll - i.e. a player who can receive the ball/head.. Suarez looked completely lost in the middle of the attacking trio ..he is way better coming from the wings were Borini was playing.

Also good showing by Borini who worked his ass off trailing back to help Johnson.

Spot on analysis Ed. True Borini worked really well defensively but I also noted on many ocassions he was further down the pitch than both Sahin and Johnson which is a problem when we retrieve the ball.

Other than that I agree it's obvious Suarez shouldn't be played in the center so here's hoping Brendan realise this as well.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 02, 2012, 06:39:51 PM
We are fucked. Where can you see wins coming from?
C'mon, we expected this or at least it was a strong possibility i.e. a poor start.

It requires a bit of leadership, that's all. Tighten up at the back, bed in the new signings
and come up with a creative solution for scoring goals and not conceding any.

Less convincing, imo, is this statement from BR:

"What has happened has happened, we'll reflect on it as a club and hopefully come January
and the next window we can transition the group that allows us to compete."


Very poor choice of words after 3 games and 5 signings.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 02, 2012, 06:57:37 PM
Less convincing, imo, is this statement from BR:

"What has happened has happened, we'll reflect on it as a club and hopefully come January
and the next window we can transition the group that allows us to compete."


Very poor choice of words after 3 games and 5 signings.

I don't know mate, I'd rather he put it that way than trying to sell us the idea our squad is full of worldclass talent. I can see where you come from but I don't think it was that much of a fuzz to be perfectly honest.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on September 02, 2012, 07:09:25 PM
First 20 mins or so we were pretty good...as soon as they scored a goal we panicked...
first thoughts...
Rodgers has got rid of the wrong players...at the end of the last season there was talk of suarez, johnson and reina off....we should have done our utmost to get rid of the latter 2 especially...there were no doubt some suckers who would have paid top money, having said that whether we'd have asked for top money is another thing......reina has been accident prone for a long time, johnson is no defender and suarez needs the perfect foil for him to operate...when we're bottom half in january and some big club comes calling offering 15 mil then that will be another loss of money..
carroll to west ham for 17 mil...a loss of 18 mil...
adam to stoke ...a loss of 4 mil (at least)
aquilani to fioretina for 3/4 mil..a loss of 14 mil...
we've GIVEN away players of the calibre of maxi, bellamy and kuyt who would have been perfect for the system that rodgers wanted to play...kuyt has scored 6 goals in 7 games for fenerbahce...

i see that john henry was twittering away at his disappointment at us not getting dempsey...well if he can twitter he can sure as hell offer an extra 2 mil...
rodgers, ayre, winter and henry are all to blame for this debacle...and it could have been completely avoided...
amateurs all...


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 02, 2012, 07:58:39 PM
First 20 mins or so we were pretty good...as soon as they scored a goal we panicked...
first thoughts...
Rodgers has got rid of the wrong players...at the end of the last season there was talk of suarez, johnson and reina off....we should have done our utmost to get rid of the latter 2 especially...there were no doubt some suckers who would have paid top money, having said that whether we'd have asked for top money is another thing......reina has been accident prone for a long time, johnson is no defender and suarez needs the perfect foil for him to operate...when we're bottom half in january and some big club comes calling offering 15 mil then that will be another loss of money..
carroll to west ham for 17 mil...a loss of 18 mil...
adam to stoke ...a loss of 4 mil (at least)
aquilani to fioretina for 3/4 mil..a loss of 14 mil...
we've GIVEN away players of the calibre of maxi, bellamy and kuyt who would have been perfect for the system that rodgers wanted to play...kuyt has scored 6 goals in 7 games for fenerbahce...

i see that john henry was twittering away at his disappointment at us not getting dempsey...well if he can twitter he can sure as hell offer an extra 2 mil...
rodgers, ayre, winter and henry are all to blame for this debacle...and it could have been completely avoided...
amateurs all...

Hmm, not sure I agree with all of that Bart mate. As I gather Brendan was hardly responsible for the debacle on Friday. I think it's his job to evaluate, assess and recommend what players he ses fit or not. The main problem here seems to be the lack of internatl communication inside the club. It's obvious the one hand doesn't have a clue what the other's doing. I wouldn't go to hard on Henry just yet. I'm sure he realise he made a huge mistake handing Kenny one blank check after another and will now do his best to rectify those mistakes. They need to get footy ppl in the key positions. There's no manager in the world who could succeed at such a dysfunctional club as our's.

The one thing I agree on is they should've supported Brendan better and let Ayre get pissed off for being sidestepped. I can only hope they're learning as they go by because another fan upproar would disastrous for this club.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 02, 2012, 08:18:28 PM
Dalglish's spending spree is really killing us. It feels like Rodgers is being made to pay a heavier price for it than he should.

FSG seem to refuse to see their part in it. For example, they allowed a caretaker manager to decide how the Torres money was spent AND in the last few hours of the January window.
THEY chose Dalglish and allowed the different sums of money to be spent on the various players. In a normal setup the board will stay decide the value they place on a player and the manager has to work within and accept that valuation.
Their lack of knowledge is no excuse. They didn't suddenly realise in January 2011 they didn't  know enough, they knew from before they bought the club, but didn't equip themselves with the relevant team around them to make up for that lack of knowledge.
They obviously didn't know the criteria required for the CEO/MD position otherwise they wouldn't have 'settled for' Ayre. 

So back to Rodgers. Carroll didn't suit, that's Rodgers call. Just because the previous manager paid £35M for him is meaningless within the structure of a football team.
They had to ensure that funds were available for him to make some fundamental changes. He can do some wage bill trimming naturally through getting rid of players deemed surplus anyway.
They also chose to get rid of Dalglish after one season, instead of giving him a another season to get his players firing as a team. This Summer could have been Dalglish's penance, clearing out the surplus, getting down the wage bill he helped swell.
Instead, all this has been put on Rodgers' shoulders with little room for him to manoeuvre in terms of shaping the team the way he needed to.
So now we're stuck someway in between Dalglish's team and the basic structure of a team the way Rodgers wants it.

I think what he needs to do is understand that he can't change both the system and the players all in one season over two (possibly) windows.
Aim to get the team back to playing the way they were in Dalglish's half season. They showed they could and whilst some players have changed the bulk are still there. That is an achievable target to start with. Then as other players are sold to be replaced with the type Rodgers wants the transition moves on further.
He should have aimed for a process of evolution in the way we played, the rate of which is determined by the purchases and sales he can make in any given window. 

Hopefully he'll re-evaluate and make the neccessary changes to get the season going and not be too proud to see it is the thing that is necessary. It's not about being right or wrong in principal or theory, but about what's right for the team and club.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 02, 2012, 08:29:31 PM
Henry and that damned twitter does no good for my blood pressure. I don't want the owner blabbing to the world. I want him to make sure that he communicates effectively with his appointed staff so everyone knew whether there was or wasn't the funds (whatever they may have been) available and that if they were that they were utilised and we may have had Dempsey providing a goal threat today.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 02, 2012, 09:08:18 PM
According to Rodgers Carroll can be recalled in January.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 02, 2012, 10:04:56 PM
If its Valero we need to get Reinas form back to what it was then we need to get it done and get him in. I fear its more than that.

Juan, I've no idea what the solution is, just a feeling this may be a part of it. Reina's never been the same keeper since Valero left and he's had an assortment of so-so coaches ever since. Not even sure who our current gk coach is.

It's something that could be done relatively cheaply and he is certainly Reina's favourite coach to work with. Likewise the strikers could benefit in the same way Torres did.

I just feel it has to be worth a try.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 02, 2012, 10:11:01 PM
Same with Gerrard. Worthless and responsible for their first.
I dunno about that! Sure, he gave the ball away and yes it could be argued that he should
have done more to retrieve it but, I think it must be the case that Enrique was too far forward
on the left somewhere because the real problem occurred when Sahin and Allen got caught
flat and Skrtel was in no mans land after the guy drifted back from him. Agger was tied up with a
player in the centre and Johnson who had been legitimately forward in the attack was busting
a gut to get back.

I can't understand why Enrique was so far forward if we're attacking on the right. Anyway we had
enough numbers back to deal with it if the two midfielders had been more aware of what was happening
and 1 of them had dropped back to pick up Skrtel's man?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 02, 2012, 10:35:18 PM
Dalglish's spending spree is really killing us. It feels like Rodgers is being made to pay a heavier price for it than he should.

FSG seem to refuse to see their part in it. For example, they allowed a caretaker manager to decide how the Torres money was spent AND in the last few hours of the January window.
THEY chose Dalglish and allowed the different sums of money to be spent on the various players. In a normal setup the board will stay decide the value they place on a player and the manager has to work within and accept that valuation.
Their lack of knowledge is no excuse. They didn't suddenly realise in January 2011 they didn't  know enough, they knew from before they bought the club, but didn't equip themselves with the relevant team around them to make up for that lack of knowledge.
They obviously didn't know the criteria required for the CEO/MD position otherwise they wouldn't have 'settled for' Ayre. 

So back to Rodgers. Carroll didn't suit, that's Rodgers call. Just because the previous manager paid £35M for him is meaningless within the structure of a football team.
They had to ensure that funds were available for him to make some fundamental changes. He can do some wage bill trimming naturally through getting rid of players deemed surplus anyway.
They also chose to get rid of Dalglish after one season, instead of giving him a another season to get his players firing as a team. This Summer could have been Dalglish's penance, clearing out the surplus, getting down the wage bill he helped swell.
Instead, all this has been put on Rodgers' shoulders with little room for him to manoeuvre in terms of shaping the team the way he needed to.
So now we're stuck someway in between Dalglish's team and the basic structure of a team the way Rodgers wants it.

I think what he needs to do is understand that he can't change both the system and the players all in one season over two (possibly) windows.
Aim to get the team back to playing the way they were in Dalglish's half season. They showed they could and whilst some players have changed the bulk are still there. That is an achievable target to start with. Then as other players are sold to be replaced with the type Rodgers wants the transition moves on further.
He should have aimed for a process of evolution in the way we played, the rate of which is determined by the purchases and sales he can make in any given window. 

Hopefully he'll re-evaluate and make the neccessary changes to get the season going and not be too proud to see it is the thing that is necessary. It's not about being right or wrong in principal or theory, but about what's right for the team and club.

Now that's a joy to read and also comforting. I do realise I so want us to realise our potential as a club I seem to constantly forget how much work there is still to be done. I do think it would help Brendan's case if he could spell out his goal for this season in qualitative rather than quantitative terms.

Also Tes, you're dead right they made the calls but we also need to remember the context in which they were made. They took over a club in free fall with fans demonstrating every game. Appointing Kenny never really was a choice they made freely from an informed position but were more or less forced to in order to appease the fanbase. Next, Torres wants to leave. I always thought paying 35 million was crazy but I have also always respected the decisiveness with which he was brought in - LFC will not be a selling club!

Where I do think they got it wrong tho, was appointing Kenny on a permanent basis. The signs were there already during that half season he'd been out of the game too long and we seem not to remember our defeats to Blackpool, WBA and others where we came up emptyhanded and no answers when questions were being asked.

What bothers and makes me sick of worry now is that the transition of the squad and the club will be put on hold until the end of season. True, we may get a striker in, in January but I fear this season will be over and what remains will be a transporting distance till the start of the next season.

The good thing about the debacle last week, if there's any at all, is that the consequences of the ineffectiveness that seem to guide this club will become clear in the coming months and that radical changes for how this club operates both off and on the pitch will have to be made. I'm not talking about sacking this or that person but rather taking a hard look in the mirror, grow a pair and come out more determined. It seems by each month that goes by that this search for the "Liverpool Way" has more to do with off-pitch issues than purely footy matters.

Given the extremly unlucky fixture list, the dysfunction and lack of internal communication and an extremly thin squad I can see us in the bottom 7 come Christmas. I know it may sound a tad negative, but I honestly believe it'll get worse before it gets better and my goal now would be set to a top half finish. That would, given the circumstances, be an achievement of sorts.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on September 02, 2012, 10:41:08 PM
Depressing words but nevertheless they smack of truth. There's no consistency on any level at this club and there hasn't been for a very long time. My Manc mate is trying to understand what's happening to us but I am lost for words. How we managed to fail to get a striker in is bordering on negligence. As you say Juan, there's nowhere to look for improvement. I also think that without a strong centerforward 4-3-3 is the wrong formation fo this squad. As the lack of goals in this squad is so alarming we'll spent most of the season to avoid relegation. I know it may sound overdramatic but I really really see us struggle to win more than 10 games this season.  That means we need to draw as many games as possible relying on a strong defence.

I don't see a way out of this than to sit it out and hope we can restructure the club over the next 5 years. I feel sorry for Brendan as he'll never get a fair chance to prove his worth at this club. He must feel badly sodomized.

Relegation is dramatic but its funny you bring it up because in all of my years supporting Liverpool today for the first time I thought that relegation is no longer something that we can ignore. Dont get me wrong I dont see it happening this year or the next but year on year there is a marked decline, we are not scoring goals and we are not addressing our problems. Teams around us are strengthening. Our squad is far weaker than the one that finished the season in May. One or two injuries and who is to say we cant get caught up in a dog fight.

Rodgers transfer budget has been drastically cut as a result of our overspending since January 2011. But how do the owners expect the club to compete when every club around us is spending more money than us. We ended up about 7th or 8th in terms of spending this summer. So how are we expected to close that gap without backing the new manager?

Theres no way no sense and no point in fans looking for Rodgers to go. We could lose 10 games in a row and there would probably still be no point in looking for change. Changing managers again wont mask our problems. The more I think about our thin squad though the more I think Rodgers needs to shoulder a large degree of blame for the players we've been left with. He has actively shipped players out all summer. Our squad has been getting smaller and smaller. We can point to the players we missed on deadline day but Rodgers suggested we were only after a couple of targets. The likes of Dempsey and Sturridge would have certainly improved our options but it still would have left us with a hugely under strength squad. So really from a number of players perspective Rodgers has got his calculations wrong. And we are going to struggle hugely partly because of that.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 02, 2012, 10:45:01 PM
Nobody Told Me
by John Lennon

Everybody's talking and no one says a word
Everybody's making love and no one really cares
There's Nazis in the bathroom just below the stairs
Always something happening and nothing going on
There's always something cooking and nothing in the pot
They're starving back in China so finish what you got

Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Strange days indeed -- strange days indeed

Everybody's runnin' and no one makes a move
Everyone's a winner and nothing left to lose
There's a little yellow idol to the north of Katmandu
Everybody's flying and no one leaves the ground
Everybody's crying and no one makes a sound
There's a place for us in the movies you just gotta lay around

Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Strange days indeed -- most peculiar, mama

Everybody's smoking and no one's getting high
Everybody's flying and never touch the sky
There's a UFO over New York and I ain't too surprised

Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Nobody told me there'd be days like these
Strange days indeed -- most peculiar, mama
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on September 02, 2012, 10:46:41 PM
C'mon, we expected this or at least it was a strong possibility i.e. a poor start.

It requires a bit of leadership, that's all. Tighten up at the back, bed in the new signings
and come up with a creative solution for scoring goals and not conceding any.


Ed thats an optimistic way of looking at things. I wish I could share that optimism but I fear things could get a whole lot worse before they get better.

Last year teams came to Anfield and figured out how to play us. After todays game I dont see why things should be any different this year.

We are toothless and our defence is a mess. The alarm bells are already ringing for me but this time I dont see how Rodgers is going to have enough quality players to work with to change things significantly.

We look in trouble imho.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 02, 2012, 10:53:11 PM
I wasnt expecting a whole lot from this season but I still find myself majorly disappointed already.

Its hard to disagree with what Dude said in an earlier post, this club is on the verge of being done as a top side.

Juan, I didn't dare utter the word *relegation* in the close-season, but I danced around it. 

I feared Rodgers might well come unstuck by Christmas (mentioned in many of my previous posts).

If we play to our potential, we are 8th to 12th material.   If we cannot arrest a slump, however, which is often a trait of young inexperienced managers, then a relegation battle could be a reality.

If Rodgers cannot arrest this run of results, have no doubt, the yanks will dispense with him, sooner rather than later.  Remember, they have form when it comes to acting quickly and acting without much compassion.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 02, 2012, 10:59:05 PM
Bring back Rafa hey Dude!!!!! The answer to all our problems!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 02, 2012, 11:01:11 PM
Bring back Rafa hey Dude!!!!! The answer to all our problems!!!!!!!!!!!

well Edward909, my answers and analysis always made far more sense than yours.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on September 02, 2012, 11:11:01 PM
Dalglish's spending spree is really killing us. It feels like Rodgers is being made to pay a heavier price for it than he should.

FSG seem to refuse to see their part in it. For example, they allowed a caretaker manager to decide how the Torres money was spent AND in the last few hours of the January window.
THEY chose Dalglish and allowed the different sums of money to be spent on the various players. In a normal setup the board will stay decide the value they place on a player and the manager has to work within and accept that valuation.
Their lack of knowledge is no excuse. They didn't suddenly realise in January 2011 they didn't  know enough, they knew from before they bought the club, but didn't equip themselves with the relevant team around them to make up for that lack of knowledge.
They obviously didn't know the criteria required for the CEO/MD position otherwise they wouldn't have 'settled for' Ayre. 

Completely agreed Tes, no matter who has f*cked up at the club FSG can blame nobody but themselves. They own and run the club. If they arent monitoring what is going on closely enough then what can they expect. Why hasnt one of them moved permanently to Liverpool for the first 3 years to ensure not only are they getting an understanding of the club and how football is run but also to iron out any problems and make sure they run a tight ship. How can we blame Damian Comolli for spending 35 million for Andy Carroll when the guy was probably sitting there with a blank cheque being told to bid as much as he wanted.

So back to Rodgers. Carroll didn't suit, that's Rodgers call. Just because the previous manager paid £35M for him is meaningless within the structure of a football team.
They had to ensure that funds were available for him to make some fundamental changes. He can do some wage bill trimming naturally through getting rid of players deemed surplus anyway.
They also chose to get rid of Dalglish after one season, instead of giving him a another season to get his players firing as a team. This Summer could have been Dalglish's penance, clearing out the surplus, getting down the wage bill he helped swell.
Instead, all this has been put on Rodgers' shoulders with little room for him to manoeuvre in terms of shaping the team the way he needed to.
So now we're stuck someway in between Dalglish's team and the basic structure of a team the way Rodgers wants it.

I think what he needs to do is understand that he can't change both the system and the players all in one season over two (possibly) windows.
Aim to get the team back to playing the way they were in Dalglish's half season. They showed they could and whilst some players have changed the bulk are still there. That is an achievable target to start with. Then as other players are sold to be replaced with the type Rodgers wants the transition moves on further.
He should have aimed for a process of evolution in the way we played, the rate of which is determined by the purchases and sales he can make in any given window. 

Hopefully he'll re-evaluate and make the neccessary changes to get the season going and not be too proud to see it is the thing that is necessary. It's not about being right or wrong in principal or theory, but about what's right for the team and club.

I think Rodgers has to take some blame for this transfer window. As I said in a post above Im not calling for his head or the likes. He needs to be given years to get things right. But even if we got the two players he wanted in on transfer deadline day the squad would have still been too thin. The more I think about it the more thats on his head. He was left shouldering the burden of missing Dempsey and Sturridge but even with those two the squad wasnt up to it. How did it take Rodgers up until the last few days to see that?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on September 02, 2012, 11:21:32 PM
Juan, I didn't dare utter the word *relegation* in the close-season, but I danced around it. 

I feared Rodgers might well come unstuck by Christmas (mentioned in many of my previous posts).

If we play to our potential, we are 8th to 12th material.   If we cannot arrest a slump, however, which is often a trait of young inexperienced managers, then a relegation battle could be a reality.

If Rodgers cannot arrest this run of results, have no doubt, the yanks will dispense with him, sooner rather than later.  Remember, they have form when it comes to acting quickly and acting without much compassion.

If we get any run of injuries a dog fight could become a reality.

I dont see any point in changing manager, I believe Rodgers will have alot to offer but unless hes given the resources we will continue to slide as a club.

With four competitions I fear that until we get to another transfer window we can no longer afford to play any of our first teamers in anything but the league. We have to wrap the first team players we do have in cotton wool and save them for the league. We cant risk them for anything else.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 02, 2012, 11:37:55 PM
But even if we got the two players he wanted in on transfer deadline day the squad would have still been too thin. The more I think about it the more thats on his head. He was left shouldering the burden of missing Dempsey and Sturridge but even with those two the squad wasnt up to it. How did it take Rodgers up until the last few days to see that?

Is right but did we ever think he'd get the squad he wanted in place in one window? I don't think getting both Dempsey and Sturridge in would've guaranteed 4th but it would've guaranteed the start of the transition process which will now be put on hold for a year and this is where I become worried.

That will be my main conclusion from the transfer window debacle. I'm glad everybody, bar one person, in this place both realise and are willing to give him time to turn things around.

 

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on September 03, 2012, 12:10:48 AM
Is right but did we ever think he'd get the squad he wanted in place in one window? I don't think getting both Dempsey and Sturridge in would've guaranteed 4th but it would've guaranteed the start of the transition process which will now be put on hold for a year and this is where I become worried.

That will be my main conclusion from the transfer window debacle. I'm glad everybody, bar one person, in this place both realise and are willing to give him time to turn things around.

He could never have sorted our team in one transfer window. I think he possibly got carried away on the clear out side of things without replacing many of the players he was getting rid of. He should have realised that for 4 competitions he was leaving the squad threadbare irrespective of a couple of players coming and going in the last week.  Whether the departures were his call or not we dont know and it seems he wasnt given a healthy transfer budget. I just think with a bit of foresight he should have guesstimated that he could land himself in the scenario hes in. Hes had all summer to work out whats required to challenge on four fronts. The fact that hes failed to do that properly for me is his first major error of judgement. As you say it now could cost us our season.

But Rodgers deserves all the time he needs to get things right. For me the ownership is whats wrong with this club. Like Hicks an Gillett did FSG are mis managing the club. It may be in a different way but its mis management none the less and I think the next 10 months will tell alot about whether they plan to stay here long term or sell the club on to someone else.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 03, 2012, 02:32:59 AM
He could never have sorted our team in one transfer window. I think he possibly got carried away on the clear out side of things without replacing many of the players he was getting rid of. He should have realised that for 4 competitions he was leaving the squad threadbare irrespective of a couple of players coming and going in the last week.  Whether the departures were his call or not we dont know and it seems he wasnt given a healthy transfer budget. I just think with a bit of foresight he should have guesstimated that he could land himself in the scenario hes in. Hes had all summer to work out whats required to challenge on four fronts. The fact that hes failed to do that properly for me is his first major error of judgement. As you say it now could cost us our season.
I think if he'd spent the Summer saying nothing and focusing on his priorities LFC might
have been better served. There's no point in him going blah, blah all the time and then
Ooops there's a major hole in the team!

An experienced DoF would have helped him get the basics right and possibly brought
along a list of alternative options for up front from the continent.

I'm certainly not going down the route that Clint Dempsey was going to be our season's saviour!
(c'mon, we didn't even really want him, did we?). I also don't understand why he was throwing
players away left right and centre in the final few days if we were getting nothing in??
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 03, 2012, 04:12:48 AM
Maxi, Kuyt, Carroll and Bellamy out; four attacking players gone and only two — the relatively unknown Fabio Borini and the yet to be seen Oussama Assaidi — to replace them.

well played brendan and ian.  Rocket scientists, the pair of ye.   Have ye been in the football industry long?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 03, 2012, 05:31:08 AM
Rodgers said: "The goals we conceded had nothing to do with systems or style, or the tactical element. We gave the ball away for the first goal and didn't do well enough to stop the shot. The second goal, we had enough bodies behind the ball to defend the goal. These are the hard yards you have to put in early on but I wouldn't change it for anything."
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 03, 2012, 05:33:10 AM
Rodgers reckons: "They (the owners) made the change and  made a big commitment to have me here for the longer term."

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 03, 2012, 05:37:10 AM
"I have a group of people I worked well with and the owners have been very up front and honest with me."

you've only been at the club ten minutes.
Title: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Gurdeep on September 03, 2012, 06:54:09 AM
I feel sorry for Brendan as he'll never get a fair chance to prove his worth at this club. He must feel badly sodomized.

That's how I felt about Rafa.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 03, 2012, 08:04:28 AM
That's how I felt about Rafa.

How so? He got 6 seasons and some 80  transfers to build a competetive side. Fair enough the last 2 seasons G & H wasn't much help altho they, for instance, allowed him to splash out 18 million on an injured player who didn't play regurarly for over 12 months before joining us. I would say Rafa got pretty much what he pointed at given the club's financial constraints. He said I don't want Parry, and they got rid of Parry. He said I want sole control over all footy matters, and they gave him sole control. Rafa lost it and I'm glad he's gone. On more than one ocassion he put his own ego before the club's interest and you could argue his Fergie rant cost us our best shot at the titel. Hell yes, I'm glad he's gone. He got more time, money and space to experiment than any manager in the post-Paisley era and he failed big time. This RAWK-myth his shortcomings are all down to the mismanagement of G & H is just that - a myth. His team played static, predictable and one-dimensional football the last 2 years he was in charge. You could tell the players didn't enjoy their footy and I thought were just as far away from anything resembling the "Liverpool way" as we were under Houllier.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 03, 2012, 08:09:24 AM
"I have a group of people I worked well with and the owners have been very up front and honest with me."

you've only been at the club ten minutes.

Not that that fact would have you reflect on how fair, plausible or fruitful it is to assess and evaluate him as manager. Fair enough you don't like him, you will never accept any manager but your phoney king Rafa. Fair enough if you don't support our manager. Fair enough you're not willing to give him a fair chance to prove himself not good enough. But do you really have to actively talk him down and belittle everything he does or say?

Rafa's gone and he's never coming back, thank God for that. You should try to accept that FACT rather than pissing on the current manager of this once great club.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 03, 2012, 08:30:11 AM
I think if he'd spent the Summer saying nothing and focusing on his priorities LFC might
have been better served. There's no point in him going blah, blah all the time and then
Ooops there's a major hole in the team!

I get your point Ed mate. You don't like him talking so much. But shouldn't you try to come to terms with the fact that that seems to be part of his personality and no matter what you or anybody else thinks of this it ain't gonna change. I know your sentiments now tho.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Gurdeep on September 03, 2012, 10:25:31 AM
How so? He got 6 seasons and some 80  transfers to build a competetive side.

He was not without faults Martin, but he knew what this club was all about.  Didn't need a 180 page dossier to explain himself and his direction. 

Name me one season where Rafa had over £100M to spend in the summer transfer window?  Trust me, if he had that kind of money we wouldn't have bought the kind of $hite Kenny did last year!  Fact.

Funny, but sometimes I think to myself is'nt ironic how one of our greatest ever players ended up being the guy hitting the final nail in our coffin.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 03, 2012, 10:48:50 AM
He was not without faults Martin, but he knew what this club was all about.  Didn't need a 180 page dossier to explain himself and his direction. 

Name me one season where Rafa had over £100M to spend in the summer transfer window?  Trust me, if he had that kind of money we wouldn't have bought the kind of $hite Kenny did last year!  Fact.

Funny, but sometimes I think to myself is'nt ironic how one of our greatest ever players ended up being the guy hitting the final nail in our coffin.

I see where you come from mate but I simply do not agree with you as  I found Rafa mediocre at best in the transer market. Didn't catch you on that final sentence???
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 03, 2012, 01:44:42 PM
Rafa lost it and I'm glad he's gone. On more than one ocassion he put his own ego before the club's interest and you could argue his Fergie rant cost us our best shot at the titel. Hell yes, I'm glad he's gone.

His team played static, predictable and one-dimensional football the last 2 years he was in charge. You could tell the players didn't enjoy their footy and I thought were just as far away from anything resembling the "Liverpool way" as we were under Houllier.

I found Rafa mediocre at best in the transer market. Didn't catch you on that final sentence???

bloddy ell, you are now ranting that Houllier's Liverpool played the "Liverpool Way".  Do you watch much football.  Do you have a clue about anything related to football or Liverpool FC.

but you know what Martin, it's not even a subjective related issue, when we do comparisons.

instead, I can objectively say, that Liverpool FC got to two CL finals under Rafa, winning one of them.....and regularly qualified for the CL each year....won an FA Cup Final, a Charity Shield, a Super Cup, and took Liverpool to number one ranked club in Europe......and all on a net budget averaging some 17 million quid per season (and at a time of chaotic owners in charge).

Benitez has a win percentage of 52% (and he has been pitted against Spain and England's top teams).  Rodgers has a win record of a mere 41 percent (and he has been pitted against the darlingtons, readings, charltons and millwalls of this world)

tell me again, what your lad, Rodgers, has achieved in the game.

I'll answer my own question.  Brendan Rodgers has won a grand total of a poxy old second division play-off title against Reading, one sunny day at Wembley.

Really, mate, if this was a boxing match, your corner would have thrown in the towel in the first round.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 03, 2012, 01:47:25 PM
Maxi, Kuyt, Carroll and Bellamy out; four attacking players gone and only two — the relatively unknown Fabio Borini and the yet to be seen Oussama Assaidi — to replace them.

well played brendan and ian.  Rocket scientists, the pair of ye.   Have ye been in the football industry long?

Maxi wanted to go back to his first club Newells Old Boys for a long time now and was granted HIS wish. Bellamy WANTED to go back to Cardiff to be nearer his family. We did not let those two go. They both wanted to go back home and we granted their wish.

Kuyt was past his best for us. I have no issue in selling him at all.

Carroll, well I wanted us to keep him alas we didn't get a replacement which has screwed us.

Alas I like you post and your spin.............However it isn't how you said it was.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 03, 2012, 02:04:34 PM
bloddy ell, you are now ranting that Houllier's Liverpool played the "Liverpool Way".  Do you watch much football.  Do you have a clue about anything related to football or Liverpool FC.

but you know what Martin, it's not even a subjective related issue, when we do comparisons.

instead, I can objectively say, that Liverpool FC got to two CL finals under Rafa, winning one of them.....and regularly qualified for the CL each year....won an FA Cup Final, a Charity Shield, a Super Cup, and took Liverpool to number one ranked club in Europe......and all on a net budget averaging some 17 million quid per season (and at a time of chaotic owners in charge).

Benitez has a win percentage of 52% (and he has been pitted against Spain and England's top teams).  Rodgers has a win record of a mere 41 percent (and he has been pitted against the darlingtons, readings, charltons and millwalls of this world)

tell me again, what your lad, Rodgers, has achieved in the game.

I'll answer my own question.  Brendan Rodgers has won a grand total of a poxy old second division play-off title against Reading, one sunny day at Wembley.

Really, mate, if this was a boxing match, your corner would have thrown in the towel in the first round.

 ;D Now he answer his own questions. There's a word for that.

Seriously mate, your analysis don't hold for any scrutiny. Back then it was, really, the big 4. Very little competetion from teams 5-10. Not that that stopped us from finishing behind our lovely neighbours  the same year we won the CL. I think that goes a long way to show he was willing to sacrifice the league for Europe. A theme that runs through his reign at Anfield. I remember us beating ManU at home then playing a virtually meaningless game in Europe where he started our strongest XI only to see lose well and truly away at Stoke with a weakened side a few days later rendering the win over the mancs virtually meaningless. That was Rafa the tinker for you.

It is all and well winning the odd Cup or even the CL. But any team can have a good cup run. Ffs, even Fulham made it all the way to the final. Does that mean you rate Roy as manager?

You can harp on about your track records and winning percentages all you like mate. The fact of the matter is Rafa got both time and resources to build a title winning side and he failed. The first 2 and half seasons looked good then we stagnated and even declined the last 2 years.

Oh, and don't give me that net budget argument. I says next to nothing. You could sell Ronaldo for 20 million and sign Hibbert for 25 and your net spend stops at a mere fiver. Instead his number of tranfsers during his time in charge is a much more interesting and telling statistic. That statistic alone goes a long way to show he never understood how to assemble a team fit for the PL.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 03, 2012, 02:12:13 PM
again, despite pi.ssing all over benitez,   you continually refuse to tell me what your lad rodgers has achieved in the game.

feck all, would be the answer  (doing my best Father Jack impersonation)


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 03, 2012, 02:45:36 PM
Maxi, Kuyt, Carroll and Bellamy out;

If cash was short and the wage bill needed trimming, apart from Bellamy who wanted to go for family reasons, then at least the first two should not have been on list 1. Maxi may have felt he wanted to go home but that is probably more down to a lack of game time. I may be uninformed but I've not heard any family reasons in his case.
Some will say Dirk was past it, but he seems to be finding the net OK this season, and it was never his pace that was one of his qualities. There really is no sensible reason, if the context of our club's situation is remembered, to have let him go so lightly, and that £1M ain't gonna sort our goal situation.

There were 8-15 players that could leave and we wouldn't notice, as we didn't really notice when they were on the pitch (if they even got that far).

Deal with them first. If you can't get rid of them all, then you've done what you can. Don't even draw up list two this Summer. That gets drawn up during the next 12 months when you've put out feelers to potential replacements.

Whichever way, you have to balance squad, strength, quality with reducing the wage bill and bringing in transfer funds.   
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 03, 2012, 02:58:16 PM
There were 8-15 players that could leave and we wouldn't notice, as we didn't really notice when they were on the pitch (if they even got that far).

Deal with them first.

exactly, Tes.

but to me it sounds like our owners asked to see a list of who our highest paid players were, and which could be offloaded easily.

why the likes of cole was ever recruited baffles me.......why don't we get rid of that type of player (who will never contribute).  OK< I know, no other club is insane enough to take on his wages.



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 03, 2012, 07:31:09 PM
why the likes of cole was ever recruited baffles me.......why don't we get rid of that type of player (who will never contribute).  OK< I know, no other club is insane enough to take on his wages.

The only one who has the answer to the first part is Purslow, as for the second part, you covered it nicely yourself, Dude.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 04, 2012, 02:33:06 AM
Half-time analysis of Liverpool vs. Arsenal by Redknapp and Neville.
Dunno, just came across it (don't watch Sky Sports much!).

http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/gary-neville-jamie-redknapp-analysis-liverpool-0-arsenal-1-halftime/

hmmm...

http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/jamie-redknapp-liverpool-need-to-sign-michael-owen/

better  :)

http://www.talksport.co.uk/sports-news/football/premier-league/transfer-rumours/120903/exclusive-mcateer-owen-has-burned-his-bridges-liverpool-1801
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 04, 2012, 08:21:30 PM
so Jason McAteer reckons bridges have been burnt.

can;t help but remember trigger and barnes managing tranmere.  Two blokes that couldn;t manage a pi.ss-up in a brewery.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 04, 2012, 10:05:24 PM
trigger and barnes managing tranmere. 

Comedy gold. The BBC comedy script writers of the 70s would have been proud of that.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 04, 2012, 10:24:53 PM
Comedy gold. The BBC comedy script writers of the 70s would have been proud of that.

 :D    a mix of some mothers do have em, rising damp and porridge.

Trigger now works in the media with Asia-based ESPN Star Sports.

I imagine the punditry at ESPN Star Sports is not up to much (to put it mildly).
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 04, 2012, 11:47:25 PM
:D    a mix of some mothers do have em, rising damp and porridge.


With McAteer taking his lead from the hapless conductor 'Blakey' from 'On the buses'.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 05, 2012, 01:12:05 PM
With McAteer taking his lead from the hapless conductor 'Blakey' from 'On the buses'.

 ;D

good call, McAteer/Trigger is Blakey from On the Buses.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 05, 2012, 02:29:36 PM
There's the story of when McAteer filled in his passport application or visa application when he first got to the club. Under 'position in company' he put 'right midfield'.

I wonder how he describes himself now.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 05, 2012, 04:35:09 PM
Just looking at Fletcher's goal for Sunderland against Swansea.

Arises from an attempt to back pass to the keeper that goes horribly wrong
(I just think it's incredible how this appears to be a feature of BR systems)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtb752MQnZc

Anyway, something we should be wary of when we play them (It's almost as
if playing Swansea is a mock up for playing us).
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 05, 2012, 08:21:49 PM
Just looking at Fletcher's goal for Sunderland against Swansea.

Arises from an attempt to back pass to the keeper that goes horribly wrong
(I just think it's incredible how this appears to be a feature of BR systems)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtb752MQnZc

Anyway, something we should be wary of when we play them (It's almost as
if playing Swansea is a mock up for playing us).

Ashley Williams, the player we were linked with to replace Agger.

What is becoming clear is the fault in the system appears to be to keep hold of the ball at all costs. Sometimes you have to give away a throw, allowing yourselves to re-group and set yourself defensively. Then you give yourself a more secure platform from which to re-gain possession. It's like Wenger's way of taking possession for the sake of possession to the nth degree, passing for the sake of passing.
Of course if you have the ball you are defending to a degree, as if the opposition does have it they can't score, but there's nothing clever or technical about that. Even Homer Simpson could figure that out for himself.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 05, 2012, 08:30:27 PM
yes, football-wise, this is kindergarten stuff.   There is a time and a place for everything.  Sometimes, one needs to put their foot through the ball and clear it.  One doesn't play triangles, and one-twos, in and around one's penalty box.

Rodgers has sold the naive yanks a pup. 

I was hoping he would get all the resources that he needed (funds), in order that folks would see through him quickly.

Sadly, Rodgers now has the excuse of not having the resources, thus he has his excuses already queued up.

We may be stuck with this bloke for at least two seasons.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 05, 2012, 09:19:40 PM
Sadly, Rodgers now has the excuse of not having the resources, thus he has his excuses already queued up.
But sure the whole reason we hired him is because he works on zero budget?

I was hoping he would get all the resources that he needed (funds), in order that folks would see through him quickly.
I disagree, i think he has the perfect situation now to show what a brilliant manager he is.

Sure most every manager of the 92 clubs in the different divisions has a sob story about how
they were robbed of the perfect conditions to achieve greatness. What separates good managers
from average ones is consistently getting results in spite of the circumstances.

FFS, tighten up at the back, keep possession in midfield, put away your chances. As the great man would
say himself, it's not rocket science!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 05, 2012, 10:00:40 PM
But sure the whole reason we hired him is because he works on zero budget?
I disagree, i think he has the perfect situation now to show what a brilliant manager he is.

Sure most every manager of the 92 clubs in the different divisions has a sob story about how
they were robbed of the perfect conditions to achieve greatness. What separates good managers
from average ones is consistently getting results in spite of the circumstances.

FFS, tighten up at the back, keep possession in midfield, put away your chances. As the great man would
say himself, it's not rocket science!

money does not talk in english football, it shouts.

just look at the money spent/premiership placing ratio tables for the premiership.   

I can only shake my head in utter desperation when I think of how Rafa could have spent the 100 million quid, that Dalglish squandered last summer.

We could have brought in 5 or 6 of Spain's finest technical players, for that money.  Half a team.

We were bad before, financially.  With Dalglish, he really has ruined us financially on the pitch.

Rodgers was never gonna work on a zero budget.  Even Harry Redknapp could not work under such conditions.

But rather than get the big headed mouth out earlier, we will now (with the budget excuse to work with), have to put up with him for longer than necessary.

Mind you, things could come to a head as quickly as the end of this month.  Next up, in the premiership, we are away to Sunderland......and then home to Man Utd.  I suspect that we will pick up very little from those games. 

On the 26th we are away to WBA in the league cup, and then we are away to Norwich in the premiership, on the 29th of September.  I suspect the game at Norwich is going to be a massive game for Brendan Rodgers.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 05, 2012, 10:18:42 PM
But rather than get the big headed mouth out earlier, we will now (with the budget excuse to work with), have to put up with him for longer than necessary.

Mind you, things could come to a head as quickly as the end of this month.  Next up, in the premiership, we are away to Sunderland......and then home to Man Utd.  I suspect that we will pick up very little from those games. 

On the 26th we are away to WBA in the league cup, and then we are away to Norwich in the premiership, on the 29th of September.  I suspect the game at Norwich is going to be a massive game for Brendan Rodgers.
But sure he can't be sacked Dude?

Think about it?

It's virtually impossible.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 05, 2012, 10:47:09 PM
But sure he can't be sacked Dude?

Think about it?

It's virtually impossible.

why do you see it as virtually impossible, Ed?

FSG are not gonna let a 400 million investment (300 to buy, 100 in last summer transfers) freefall into the Championship.

if we are sitting in the bottom 4 or 5, come Christmas, you will see Rodgers facing the boot.  And the fans will not be fobbed off with spin and yarns from rodgers or the owners.   Fans will demand proper senior executives in place at Anfield.  They will demand a proper well-respected, experienced, senior manager in the dugout....someone fitting of the Liverpool job.

I said it several times in here, during the close season, I reckon that Rodgers could be even worse than Hodgson or Dalglish.

I at least imagined he would make Anfield a fortress.  But he would be found out on our travels.

But I am now fast reconsidering that prediction......and now suspect that he will be found out at Anfield too.

He has no tactics.  There is no balance.  There is no plan b, nevermind a plan c or d.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 05, 2012, 11:08:21 PM
why do you see it as virtually impossible, Ed?
Ok it's not impossible, just very unlikely then  :)

C'mon, we saw their retarded search for a manager over the Summer.
These are the same guys. Would you trust them to appoint another manager
given their track record?

Costs a fortune to change manager and the new guy would want to tear it all up
and start again. Maybe we could get a loan manager 'til the end of the season  ;D

WTF would want the gig? What self respecting manager (Rodgers obviously  :) ) would
work with a bunch of interfering business wonks??

That's the off the top of my head reasons (I mean are we going to get another sniveling
letter from Henry Ford at Christmas full of crap about winning with a p.s. we've shown
Brendan the door and appointed Colin f*cking Pascoe as Gaffer....he's decided to paint the
nets at Anfield yellow, success is on the way!!  :) )
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 06, 2012, 04:05:42 AM
whether we trust them, or whether they are any good at picking another manager, is besides the point.

if Liverpool are sitting near the bottom of the league, they will be forced into action......both to protect their investment, and also because the fans will force their hand.  We saw that with Hodgson. 

Rodgers was not a popular choice.  And thus the fanbase will be quick to draw conclusions this season.    This stupid notion, from FSG and Rodgers himself, that the manager will be given years to rebuild, is a load of rubbish.   He will be judged, rightly or wrongly, in the opening months of this season.  Depending on how badly he flounders, he will, or will not, be allowed to stay in the job til the end of the season. 

As for compensation, a couple of points.  He is a young boss, so they will have hired him on corresponding wages (fairly low).  Thus compensation will be minimal, I would imagine.  And secondly, compensation will be the least of FSG's worries, if they are faced with the notion of championship football (and the financial realities of that).

Liverpool, right now, are not playing mid-table football.  They are playing bottom eight football.

An experienced mature manager can often turn things around.  A young inexperienced manager will often flounder when faced with a bad run of results. 

When I saw our fixture list in the close season, I worried about the run of games we had in the opening 3 months.  If we got into a rut early on, as we have done, things could quickly escalate from bad to much worse.  We need a couple of premiership victories.  But I cannot, across September, see where they are gonna come from.  We will have to go to places like Sunderland and Norwich and get results.  I think the September 29th game at Carrow Road may take on major importance.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 06, 2012, 11:46:30 AM
An experienced mature manager can often turn things around.  A young inexperienced manager will often flounder when faced with a bad run of results. 

Spurs can be used as an example and will probably reinforce the point even more.

Ramos - Rednapp - AVB.

The turn around under Rednapp in the first two seasons was meteoric, after the PL inexperienced Ramos floundered, coincidenty with Comolli as his DoF (it's a whole new argument but FSG should have looked at Spurs with and without Comolli as DoF).
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 06, 2012, 01:15:31 PM
Spurs can be used as an example and will probably reinforce the point even more.

Ramos - Rednapp - AVB.

The turn around under Rednapp in the first two seasons was meteoric, after the PL inexperienced Ramos floundered, coincidenty with Comolli as his DoF (it's a whole new argument but FSG should have looked at Spurs with and without Comolli as DoF).

good examples.

I have seen it time and time again, over the years.  The inexperienced manager is fine, as long as results are running smoothly.   But when things go south, and he has a bad run of results, such a manager is then found out.  He often cannot arrest the bad run of results.  He has no answers.

Good point re the Director of Football thingie at Spurs.    I have no time for that role.  And anytime I ever come across it at a British club, I know that the owners of said club have not got the foggiest notion about football.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 06, 2012, 06:24:31 PM
Yesil's scored the opener for the German u-19s against England.

http://www.usagoals.com/live/186305-germany-u19-vs-england-u19/watch/stream/online/free/feed/p2p/en/vivo/tv/gratis/ (http://www.usagoals.com/live/186305-germany-u19-vs-england-u19/watch/stream/online/free/feed/p2p/en/vivo/tv/gratis/)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 06, 2012, 06:27:37 PM
Second for Yesil. Great finish from an acute angle. His movement looks good, as does his work rate.

We have our goalscorer.  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 06, 2012, 06:31:40 PM
England getting tonked. 3-1.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on September 16, 2012, 06:37:30 PM
Some more signs of strength but also of weakness against Sunderland. Played well in the second half and really should have come from behind and won...it's a work in progress and personally would like to see Suso come on for Borini as sub rather than downing...
Sunderland away is always a tough game and thought we did pretty well considered...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 16, 2012, 07:40:30 PM
Couldn't see the game live so recorded it on my already full hard-drive. Was well miffed to realise that I could only see the opening 15 minutes - out goes all the children's movies - revenge!!! 8)

Awrite, had to rely on my manc-mate to get some feedback on the game. He said we played very well throughout the game but struggled heavily to penetrate the last third.

I just have a feeling it'll be a while before things start to click for us. From the few minutes I was able to see I really thought there's something new to our game and I like that. I also think we conceded another poor goal.

As it is I'll be in Ingurland on October 25 and 26. How small a chance do I stand to get my hands on a ticket for the Derby at Goodison on the 27th? 0.6 %?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 16, 2012, 09:30:57 PM
We defend like Barca, now we just need to get the scoring bit sorted. At the moment we're too much like a flacid c@ck.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 17, 2012, 12:29:08 AM
Couldn't see the game live so recorded it on my already full hard-drive. Was well miffed to realise that I could only see the opening 15 minutes - out goes all the children's movies - revenge!!! 8)

Awrite, had to rely on my manc-mate to get some feedback on the game. He said we played very well throughout the game but struggled heavily to penetrate the last third.

I just have a feeling it'll be a while before things start to click for us. From the few minutes I was able to see I really thought there's something new to our game and I like that. I also think we conceded another poor goal.

As it is I'll be in Ingurland on October 25 and 26. How small a chance do I stand to get my hands on a ticket for the Derby at Goodison on the 27th? 0.6 %?

Where abouts in england will you be Martin?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 17, 2012, 12:34:27 AM
Where abouts in england will you be Martin?

Where ever Rafa's new book goes on sale first.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 17, 2012, 08:24:50 AM
Where abouts in england will you be Martin?

Not sure yet mate. I'm particpating in an informal workshop with the EU-Commission's Expert Group on Cross-Border Health Care and it's hosted by NHS. So a qualified guess would be London but it isn't confirmed yet, nor is the dates.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 17, 2012, 11:46:27 AM
Not sure yet mate. I'm particpating in an informal workshop with the EU-Commission's Expert Group on Cross-Border Health Care and it's hosted by NHS. So a qualified guess would be London but it isn't confirmed yet, nor is the dates.

Do the EU 'high ups' actually have any expertise amongst them, as most things they come up with are hair-brained and guaranteed to cost more money.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 17, 2012, 04:26:25 PM
Do the EU 'high ups' actually have any expertise amongst them, as most things they come up with are hair-brained and guaranteed to cost more money.  :D

 ;D Wouldn't call myself a high up by any means, I'm merely a national expert on highly specialized services. 8) On a more serious note the EU and its beauraucrats have very limited expertise which is why they gather so called expert groups consisting of people from various memberstates.

Still, will you lot ever prove yourselves useful and cough up a ticket for the Merseyside derby?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 17, 2012, 04:49:38 PM
;D Wouldn't call myself a high up by any means, I'm merely a national expert on highly specialized services. 8) On a more serious note the EU and its beauraucrats have very limited expertise which is why they gather so called expert groups consisting of people from various memberstates.

Still, will you lot ever prove yourselves useful and cough up a ticket for the Merseyside derby?

I once knew a woman who offered 'highly specialised services'.  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on September 17, 2012, 07:10:40 PM
Anyone notice how well Malaga are doing in La liga? Second in the league and 6 points clear of Real Madrid...A sad day that when Rafa left, we didn't go for Pelligrini....the sheikh who bought the club is vaguely back on board now as they doing so well...and despite having to sell 3 of his prime players pelligrini have got them 2nd...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 18, 2012, 08:47:48 AM
But don't you think Pellegrini was always bound to have a better chance to succeed in Spain than in England? Rafa got 6 years and never understood how to take on the PL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t00D23R63ig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t00D23R63ig)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 18, 2012, 01:45:58 PM
how's David Brent doing?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 18, 2012, 01:58:52 PM
We defend like Barca, now we just need to get the scoring bit sorted. At the moment we're too much like a flacid c@ck.

we have no balance anywhere on the pitch, Tes.

we have the same level of disorganisation, as we had under hodgson and dalglish.

and upfront, what a joke. 

we were desperately lucky against sunderland.  Sunderland ran out of steam in the second half, and kept gifting us possession.  Eventually, we managed to convert a chance.

but the way that other sides line up against us, is worrying me.  WBA did it, Sunderland did it, Arsenal did it too.  They seem to have caught our one dimensional manager on.  They line up against us, as if they were the away team.  OK, Arsenal were away, but the others were playing at home.  They are happy to allow us possession, defend deep, and hit us on the counter. 

If we could score, i.e. go ahead in games, it would force other teams to come out and play.  But we cannae score. 

And that problem is not gonna be resolved any time soon.

Unless Rodgers gets his finger out, I see us as a bottom 8 team, this season, constantly looking over our shoulder.



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 19, 2012, 12:05:03 AM
It's amazing that even Wenger was able to set Arsenal up to counter attack. It's no good Rodgers saying we'll defend with the ball. You need to be able to defend without it also. Teams won't be afraid to attack us either positively or on the counter if we can't score, and merely having the ball is meaningless if we don't create chances and then put them away.

It works for Barca as they have the players to play that way and also are able to finish their chances, so teams are more afraid to come out of their defensive mindset, but against us, teams aren't worried.
They'll let us have the ball as we won't do anything with it and they always feel that they'll get a chance themselves, either what they've created or through one of our mistakes.

His first task is to sort out the team defensively and get them to close down high up the pitch. Without a defensive base you have to try and simply outscore the opposition. That won't happen every game and we certainly don't have the players to do it anyway.

History's successful teams could all defend. Only a very few teams throughout history have been able to defend merely by keeping possession. Beyond the great Brazilian teams and the Real Madrid team of the 50s there have been few others. Every other team was built from the back and on a strong defence and the defensive side of their game was as good as the offensive side.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 19, 2012, 12:45:23 AM
yes, history tells us that 99 percent of the great teams could defend.

defence has to come first.......build from the back.

but that would mean rodgers has to drop carragher.  Jamie has no part to play in our normal starting 11.

and I cringe at gerrard....he has been at direct fault for at least two of the goals we have conceded to date....clumsily gifting the ball to the opposition, and them countering and scoring. 

people tell me how great allen is, but what exactly is he great at?  Is he a holding midfielder? No.  Is he an attacking midfielder?  No.   His goals to games played ratio is abysmal.  So what exactly is his role in central midfield.  I have no idea.

my initial solutions, would be, to drop carragher....and move gerrard out of central midfield, and play him instead on the right side.

and for goodness sake, would one of our dugout lads tell suarez to stop hoarding the ball and the chances.  Suarez is a world class creator of chances, but the lad could not score in a brothel. FFS Would someone tell the lad to fecking PASS the BALL to a colleague in a better position.   This is not rocket science.

Borini to date, looks mid table Swansea class.  And I suspect Allen is much the same.

I am scared for Liverpool this season.  We are below standard, on every measure one cares to look at.





Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 19, 2012, 03:42:29 AM
and I cringe at gerrard....he has been at direct fault for at least two of the goals we have conceded to date....clumsily gifting the ball to the opposition, and them countering and scoring. 
Nah, the goal against Arsenal was a mix up between Skrtel, Allen & Sahin with the
two full backs committed too far forward.

people tell me how great allen is, but what exactly is he great at?  Is he a holding midfielder? No.  Is he an attacking midfielder?  No.   His goals to games played ratio is abysmal.  So what exactly is his role in central midfield.  I have no idea.
He's in the Lucas role at the moment, not the worst imo, comfortable on the ball, wants to
be on the ball, will probably make more happen when he's played in his position. Does get
hyped a bit though given that he's basically doing no more than would be expected of him
(i mean are expectations that low?)

Borini to date, looks mid table Swansea class.  And I suspect Allen is much the same.
I cautioned against throwing him into the first 11. Needs a goal soon!

I am scared for Liverpool this season.  We are below standard, on every measure one cares to look at.
I too get the impression that a lot of clubs are in much better shape than us. Still early days
mind and we've seen nothing of Sahin and Assaidi. But when we're seriously considering
Yesil and Morgan for first team action, it's hardly confidence building??
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 19, 2012, 08:02:41 AM
I am scared for Liverpool this season.  We are below standard, on every measure one cares to look at.

Here's one measure for you mate: Our peformance, bar individual mistakes, against Man C. You're negative beyond belief my friend. Could you please repeat the record of your hero when he took over Valencia. A Valencia side that subsequently went on to play some of the best footy I've ever seen.

No one's happy with our current position but to think a decade long misuse of this great club would be fixed over night is not just naive, it borders on ignorance.

And your comments on Allen really doesn't favor you man. You're about the only person I came across having that opinon.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 19, 2012, 11:45:34 AM
Here's one measure for you mate: Our peformance, bar individual mistakes, against Man C. You're negative beyond belief my friend. Could you please repeat the record of your hero when he took over Valencia. A Valencia side that subsequently went on to play some of the best footy I've ever seen.

No one's happy with our current position but to think a decade long misuse of this great club would be fixed over night is not just naive, it borders on ignorance.

And your comments on Allen really doesn't favor you man. You're about the only person I came across having that opinon.

we have made our worst start to a season since 1911, and you complain that I am being overly negative.

ironic that Martin complains about people being negative.   

and why do you keep blaming the past.  I thought Rodgers was the solution.

you say that our Man City performance is one measure where we excelled.  But didn;t Southampton put in a helluva performance the week before against City, and yet most likely, Southampton will get relegated come May time.  Performance without results is a waste of time.

And when asked  a simple question, as to the role of Allen, you are stumped.  He is a central midfielder, we can agree on that.....well, is he an attacking or defensive central midfielder?  This is not a trick question. 

And is Borini anything more than a mid-table level striker?

And why is Suarez not being told to pass the ball more, instead of wasting so many chances?

And why does our manager keep outlining all his inner thoughts to the media every day?   

These are simple questions. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 19, 2012, 05:04:25 PM
you say that our Man City performance is one measure where we excelled.  But didn;t Southampton put in a helluva performance the week before against City, and yet most likely, Southampton will get relegated come May time.  Performance without results is a waste of time.
Have to agree with that, patting ourselves on the back for throwing away 2 points at home was
never the Liverpool way be it against the champions or a newly promoted team.

The performance against Sunderland wasn't as great as is being made out either, imo, & we saw
far clearer cut chances being created under Kenny early last season.

He is a central midfielder, we can agree on that.....well, is he an attacking or defensive central midfielder?  This is not a trick question. 
He's not out and out attacking as such, that was more Sigurdsson. He's also not a defensive holding type and is only
covering for Lucas at the moment in the holding role. My understanding is that he plays further up the pitch than
he is at the moment. I'd label him primarily as a passer, can pass it 'til the cows come home anywhere on the pitch.
He's comfortable on the ball, wants to be on the ball instigating moves, supporting the play type of guy. Tbh, he's
done well since he came in, here's hoping he gets better and better (needs to muscle up though!).
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 19, 2012, 06:05:14 PM
we have made our worst start to a season since 1911, and you complain that I am being overly negative.

ironic that Martin complains about people being negative.   

and why do you keep blaming the past.  I thought Rodgers was the solution.

you say that our Man City performance is one measure where we excelled.  But didn;t Southampton put in a helluva performance the week before against City, and yet most likely, Southampton will get relegated come May time.  Performance without results is a waste of time.

And when asked  a simple question, as to the role of Allen, you are stumped.  He is a central midfielder, we can agree on that.....well, is he an attacking or defensive central midfielder?  This is not a trick question. 

And is Borini anything more than a mid-table level striker?

And why is Suarez not being told to pass the ball more, instead of wasting so many chances?

And why does our manager keep outlining all his inner thoughts to the media every day?   

These are simple questions.

I'll do my best to answer your simple questions.

Re Allen. I'm not sure he's either/or. I think it was obvious to most of us that Brenny planned to play Lucas in the defensive role with Allen/Gerrard/Sahin interchangably in front of him in a 3 men center midfield. Is that good enough. Or did you have in mind his mind-set? Is he a Hamann or an Aimar type of player? I'd go with the latter if I must chose.

Re. Borini. He's played 8 games for th club. I couldn't possibly have enough information to either write him off or label him quality, nor could you.

Re. Suarez. I don't know. Maybe he's been told. Maybe it's a cultural thingy for all I know.

Re. Brendan. Well he's a talker. That's how it is. It may not be everybody's cup of tea but it isn't the end of the world either.

Other than that I am not blaming the past. I'm just concluding this club's been poorly run at almost every level for a decade. That's a fact. You harp on about Brendan and his CV when the fact of the matter is that many of our problems reside further up the food chain and are of structural character rather than individual.

So, back to my question. How did Rafa fare during his first 4 leaguegames as manager for Valencia? How thick was Rafa's CV before taking the helm at the Mestalla? It's just tedious to read your negative crap on the back of less than a handful of games. Can't you see that?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 19, 2012, 06:22:12 PM
Not sure yet mate. I'm particpating in an informal workshop with the EU-Commission's Expert Group on Cross-Border Health Care and it's hosted by NHS. So a qualified guess would be London but it isn't confirmed yet, nor is the dates.

Well I live in Cambridge which is 45mins to london via train, so if you are in London then let me know if you fancy meeting up and having a few jars somewhere in London!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 19, 2012, 08:42:15 PM
Have to agree with that, patting ourselves on the back for throwing away 2 points at home was
never the Liverpool way be it against the champions or a newly promoted team.

The performance against Sunderland wasn't as great as is being made out either, imo, & we saw
far clearer cut chances being created under Kenny early last season.
He's not out and out attacking as such, that was more Sigurdsson. He's also not a defensive holding type and is only
covering for Lucas at the moment in the holding role. My understanding is that he plays further up the pitch than
he is at the moment. I'd label him primarily as a passer, can pass it 'til the cows come home anywhere on the pitch.
He's comfortable on the ball, wants to be on the ball instigating moves, supporting the play type of guy. Tbh, he's
done well since he came in, here's hoping he gets better and better (needs to muscle up though!).

Ed, I wrote a big long detailed reply, this afternoon, which was lost when I hit send.

I really do wish that Jim would increase the time duration of the sign-in cookies, and stop this type of thing from happening so often.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 19, 2012, 08:52:30 PM
Ed, I wrote a big long detailed reply, this afternoon, which was lost when I hit send.

I really do wish that Jim would increase the time duration of the sign-in cookies, and stop this type of thing from happening so often.
Hate when that happens!

Here's a link to an i/v with Rafa on his book:

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2012/09/interview-rafael-benitez/
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 20, 2012, 10:44:24 AM
Assaidi will add new dimension to Liverpool FC attacking play, says Brendan Rodgers

by James Pearce, Sep 20 2012


BRENDAN RODGERS believes Oussama Assaidi will add a new dimension to Liverpool’s attacking play.

The Morocco international, who was snapped up from Heerenveen for £3million last month, will make his debut in tonight’s Europa League game with Young Boys in Bern.

The Reds boss is excited about the prospect of finally seeing the left winger take his bow.

“Assaidi has had a few weeks to adapt and now he’s ready to play,” said Rodgers.

“It was difficult for him because he was injured for a bit and then he wasn’t eligible for the games against Hearts. But he has settled in well and this will be his first opportunity.

“He’s an exciting player – someone who can take people on. He gets crosses in and has got an end product.

“That’s important because I like players at the top end of the field who have that invention, fight and ability to score goals.

“He’s good on one v ones and is a technical player who is strong and uses his body well.

“I’m looking forward to seeing him play against Young Boys and seeing how he adapts to playing inthis
team.”

Rodgers also confirmed that Brad Jones will start in goal tonight with Peter Gulacsi on the bench after Pepe Reina remained at Melwood.

“Brad will play and he deserves it,” Rodgers added. “He has been first class. He’s not had a look in but he’s come in every day and worked well.”
[/i]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/09/20/100252-31871428/ (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/09/20/100252-31871428/)

I'm sure Roy thinks he's invented a new technique of playing football. Get us back to playing the way we did in Dalglish's caretaker period, or the way (swift passing, constant movement in support of the man with the ball, closing down instantly and high up the pitch etc) the way Valencia played under Benitez, and we'll be fine, or a Plan B where we draw the opposition onto us then counter attack with pace (though we still lack so much of it in the squad) and swift forward passing (non of this passing for the sake of passing or keeping possession) or a Plan C where we attack down the flanks, doubling wide forward and full back up, whilst getting plenty of players in and around the box, working positions from the goaline but within the penalty area for 'pullbacks' as opposed to putting the ball in the box from deep or near the goaline but outside the area. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 20, 2012, 02:07:16 PM
Well I live in Cambridge which is 45mins to london via train, so if you are in London then let me know if you fancy meeting up and having a few jars somewhere in London!

Ed mate, that would really be great. However, it'll be a lunch to lunch workshop with probable (as in mandatory) dinner on the 25th. If I can get hold of a ticket for the derby I'll prolly take the train to Liverpool on Friday night so it may turn out difficult to se up a tet á tet.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 20, 2012, 06:19:30 PM
Ed mate, that would really be great. However, it'll be a lunch to lunch workshop with probable (as in mandatory) dinner on the 25th. If I can get hold of a ticket for the derby I'll prolly take the train to Liverpool on Friday night so it may turn out difficult to se up a tet á tet.

Well in the event you do not get a ticket then let me know of your plans!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 20, 2012, 06:46:37 PM
Well, Wisdom has a wise head....
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 20, 2012, 07:04:37 PM

Here's a link to an i/v with Rafa on his book:

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2012/09/interview-rafael-benitez/

many thanks for that link, Ed.

wonderful interview.

and you can hear the awe and respect (that they hold for Rafa) from those top journalists (Tony Evans, Rory Smith, etc).

when Rafa speaks, people of intelligence, listen.

my fear, for the past 5 or so years, has been that a club like Man Utd or Man City, will appoint him as their boss.

He's a relatively young man, with many great years in front of him.  It is scary what his ability, allied with transfer riches, could do for a competitor.

If I were United, he would be Ferguson's successor.

And since Liverpool have treated him like sh.ite, we can not complain if he should make such a switch.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 21, 2012, 12:47:10 PM
Well in the event you do not get a ticket then let me know of your plans!

I most certainly will!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 22, 2012, 09:29:52 PM
If I were United, he would be Ferguson's successor.

I'd like to see Moyes get that gig. I think he's paid his dues and deserves a 'big club' opportunity, plus I want to see what he can do with more than just the spare change he and Kenwright find down the backs of their collective sofas.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 12:38:28 AM
I'd like to see Moyes get that gig. I think he's paid his dues and deserves a 'big club' opportunity, plus I want to see what he can do with more than just the spare change he and Kenwright find down the backs of their collective sofas.

yes, David Moyes deserves a top job at some point.

Pound for point, I do not think anyone in Britain comes close to the managerial performance of David Moyes, these past ten years at Everton.  He works on a shoestring, every year, with no margin for error.  And every year, he pulls it off. 

Now whether he can step up and replicate his success (for that is what it is at everton), on a higher stage, who knows.  It is not an easy task, taking hold of the reins of a top club that demands top trophies, year in, year out.  But he definitely deserves the opportunity.   

I have always been impressed by Moyes, both as a football manager, and as a human being.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 23, 2012, 02:18:49 PM
I think Shelvey needs to leave the wild tackling behind in pre-season.
There were a couple I saw that weren't dissimilar to what got ivanovic
red yesterday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slYUuMxMISA

Just waiting to happen, imo. I'll be pissed if it costs us against the big teams at
the start of the season  :(
Jesus....i had a hunch that was going to happen  :'(
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 23, 2012, 02:33:31 PM
Wow! What a performance!!! Thanks to a weak Halsey they'll win it. I saw Luis commit a two footed lunge yesterday getting away with it + Evans the cnut also had two straight legs. No pen for Agger.

Other than that we totally and utterly outplayed them in first half. Reckon the cads with get an easy pen and win it. Fukc off Halsey you weak and worthless cad.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 03:15:50 PM
Outstanding performance by Liverpool....especially with having to play most of the game with only ten men.

The ref made several key blunders.

We had a stonewall penalty turned down (when Suarez was clearly fouled in the area).

United had a phantom penalty awarded.

And just there now, Van Persie does a two footed lunge on Suarez and does not get a red card.

The referee needs to take a long hard look at himself.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 03:29:32 PM
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02348/image_2348349a.jpg)

here's another angle for the Shelvey sending off.

looks like the United man is more to blame than shelvey.

all in all, the ref had a stinker today.

the FA need to have a look at his performance.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 03:41:30 PM
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02348/justicereu_2348337k.jpg)

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02348/bannerreu_2348338k.jpg)

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02348/bannerreu1_2348340k.jpg)

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02348/unitedpa_2348341k.jpg)

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02348/flowersreu_2348344k.jpg)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 23, 2012, 03:41:41 PM
I'm delighted with the performance. If we can play to that level week in and week out the results will come. It's easy to be deflated about the result, but we performed superbly imo and we need to take that from the game and play to that level on a consistent basis.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 23, 2012, 03:44:18 PM
I'm delighted with the performance. If we can play to that level week in and week out the results will come. It's easy to be deflated about the result, but we performed superbly imo and we need to take that from the game and play to that level on a consistent basis.

My sentiments exactly Ed mate. We were superior in every department. Halsey won the game for United who got their 4th non-peno if you include the Gala peno. I'm very impressed by us and today a shift was made. I can see us go unbeaten from today til mid-february. We're together with Everton by far the best TEAM in the PL this far.

I hate Mark Halsey and wish him the worst. He's soooooooooooooooo firkin overdue.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 03:48:37 PM
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02348/justicereu_2348337k.jpg)

the above image, is probably the most stunning and moving image that I have ever seen at Anfield (or at any ground).


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 23, 2012, 03:55:11 PM
My sentiments exactly Ed mate. We were superior in every department. Halsey won the game for United who got their 4th non-peno if you include the Gala peno. I'm very impressed by us and today a shift was made. I can see us go unbeaten from today til mid-february. We're together with Everton by far the best TEAM in the PL this far.

I hate Mark Halsey and wish him the worst. He's soooooooooooooooo firkin overdue.

Our lack of goals means I don't share your sentiment about going unbeaten until mid february. We have Everton away end of October. We have Chelsea and Spurs and Newcastle at home in November. In December we have West Ham, Stoke and QPR away. In January we have Man U and Arsenal away. Our lack of goals means that I can't see us getting many wins or draws away from during that period.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 23, 2012, 03:58:55 PM
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02348/image_2348349a.jpg)

here's another angle for the Shelvey sending off.

looks like the United man is more to blame than shelvey.

all in all, the ref had a stinker today.

the FA need to have a look at his performance.

When both players are guilty of going in studs first, it shouldn't matter who comes off worse, both are guilty of the same offence. Common sense is therefore a yellow each and warning that any further infringement of the laws of the game sees you walking.
There's no perpetrator and victim, both are equally guilty.
 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 23, 2012, 04:02:49 PM
On another brighter note I was pleasantly surprised to see Suso coming on in the second half. All in all I thought he did well.

It is very pleasing to see the youngster given a chance under Rodgers and the likes of Sterling and Suso are our future and to see them develop in the first team is going to be intriguing.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 23, 2012, 04:03:07 PM
Our lack of goals means I don't share your sentiment about going unbeaten until mid february. We have Everton away end of October. We have Chelsea and Spurs and Newcastle at home in November. In December we have West Ham, Stoke and QPR away. In January we have Man U and Arsenal away. Our lack of goals means that I can't see us getting many wins or draws away from during that period.

Agreed. In addition, our defensive setup isn't good enough to keep clean sheets. This is going to be a season long learning curve for all, and seem like a very long one.

The performance today was much better than Thursday, but we're just going to have to enjoy the victories however and against whoever.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 04:04:03 PM
When both players are guilty of going in studs first, it shouldn't matter who comes off worse, both are guilty of the same offence. Common sense is therefore a yellow each

agreed.

sadly, we have a history of coming off worse with refs in this fixture over the years.

refs often reduce us to ten men, often in the most dubious of circumstances.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 04:08:29 PM
Agreed. In addition, our defensive setup isn't good enough to keep clean sheets. This is going to be a season long learning curve for all, and seem like a very long one.

The performance today was much better than Thursday, but we're just going to have to enjoy the victories however and against whoever.

from the first few games of this season, I keep thinking of Forest's relegation season - and the mantra, that with the football they were playing, they were "too good to go down"

we are highly unbalanced, and poorly set up in defence, midfield and attack.  I can envisage the poorest season unfolding in front of us, in the months ahead.  I see us as being bottom eight material.

Now, as is often the case, teams start to perform better as the season progresses (the likes of everton and arsenal are typically always slow starters).  I just hope we can develop better understandings and push on.  Fingers crossed (or else it is gonna be a long hard season).
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 23, 2012, 04:10:42 PM
On another brighter note I was pleasantly surprised to see Suso coming on in the second half. All in all I thought he did well.

It is very pleasing to see the youngster given a chance under Rodgers and the likes of Sterling and Suso are our future and to see them develop in the first team is going to be intriguing.

Agree again. The youngsters are getting the best education there is - top flight football. As long as Rodgers doesn't panic in the next two windows and goes just for ready made solutions (Dalglish's major error) then we'll be looking OK for the medium to long term. He's going to have to develop anyway, as our next shirt and kit deals won't be anywhere near enough to make up for no CL football, so we're going to have to develop our own with only the odd position specific purchase of a 'specialised ready made' player.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 04:24:02 PM
without CL money, we will never be able to hold on to young players that develop well in the next year or two (say, for example, Sterling).

CL football is essential.  Without it, we will become a feeder club.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 23, 2012, 04:33:51 PM
from the first few games of this season, I keep thinking of Forest's relegation season - and the mantra, that with the football they were playing, they were "too good to go down"

we are highly unbalanced, and poorly set up in defence, midfield and attack.  I can envisage the poorest season unfolding in front of us, in the months ahead.  I see us as being bottom eight material.

Now, as is often the case, teams start to perform better as the season progresses (the likes of everton and arsenal are typically always slow starters).  I just hope we can develop better understandings and push on.  Fingers crossed (or else it is gonna be a long hard season).

Dude, it's what I don't understand with Rodgers. Why press on regardless trying to change the system so dramatically, when we don't have the players, especially upfront to do so. Considering the squad he had left when the window shut, he should have delayed the 'transformation' or at least the rate of it. Concentrate on keeping what we had (overall a good defence), and just introduce aspects that reinforced that, as goals were likely to be even more scarce than last season. Then as transfer windows (hopefully) allow and as the make up of the squad changes the system can evolve with it.
It's probably down to inexperience and the desire to create an impression that managers change things too quickly.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 23, 2012, 04:44:50 PM
The long term benefits of doing the transition now outweighs the short term. For the past decade we keep think short term and in the end its cost us. The transition has to happen sooner rather than later. It will take time to implement, so we need to implement it now.

Oh and Dude do me a favour saying we may be do forest. If you think we will finish below Reading, Wigan, Southampton, Norwich, Aston Villa, Swansea, West Ham, West Brom or Fulham then you need your head testing.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 04:49:52 PM
Dude, it's what I don't understand with Rodgers. Why press on regardless trying to change the system so dramatically, when we don't have the players, especially upfront to do so. Considering the squad he had left when the window shut, he should have delayed the 'transformation' or at least the rate of it. Concentrate on keeping what we had (overall a good defence), and just introduce aspects that reinforced that, as goals were likely to be even more scarce than last season. Then as transfer windows (hopefully) allow and as the make up of the squad changes the system can evolve with it.
It's probably down to inexperience and the desire to create an impression that managers change things too quickly.

yes, a mature manager would have built on what we had, instead of such major change.

of course Rodgers has already got his excuses prepared.  Within a fortnight of his appointment, he was telling the world that he himself may not be around long enough to see his changes come to fruition.

ok, tell you what Brendan, we'll keep half your salary back, until we finally see the results.

that way, you are not spinning us yarns about things that will never happen.,
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 04:55:08 PM
Oh and Dude do me a favour saying we may be do forest. If you think we will finish below Reading, Wigan, Southampton, Norwich, Aston Villa, Swansea, West Ham, West Brom or Fulham then you need your head testing.

do me a favour and shut the feck up.

if Rafa had had Liverpool's worst start in over a century, you'd be kicking him all around Anfield.

but here you are, telling us it will all come good.

well, you wanted rid of Rafa, and now you have what you want.

you (and Martin) have made your bed and you're gonna have to lie in it.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 23, 2012, 05:06:41 PM
do me a favour and shut the feck up.

if Rafa had had Liverpool's worst start in over a century, you'd be kicking him all around Anfield.

but here you are, telling us it will all come good.

well, you wanted rid of Rafa, and now you have what you want.

you (and Martin) have made your bed and you're gonna have to lie in it.

I'm delighted with Rodgers because our performance levels and football in 5 games has been better in 38 games under Dalglish.

I like my bed so when lying in it I will sleep at night very easily thanks.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 05:10:39 PM
I'm delighted with Rodgers because our performance levels and football in 5 games has been better in 38 games under Dalglish.

I like my bed so when lying in it I will sleep at night very easily thanks.

maybe the premiership authorities will start awarding points for performance.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 23, 2012, 05:24:44 PM
maybe the premiership authorities will start awarding points for performance.

I'll judge in the long term thanks rather than think we'll do a forest......
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 05:32:09 PM
I'll judge in the long term thanks rather than think we'll do a forest......

will you judge him in the same way you judged Rafa?

will finishing, say in seventh spot in the premiership see you want Rodgers fired?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 23, 2012, 05:45:20 PM
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02348/image_2348349a.jpg)

here's another angle for the Shelvey sending off.

looks like the United man is more to blame than shelvey.

all in all, the ref had a stinker today.

the FA need to have a look at his performance.
Straight red for Shelvey, he's going through the player with
studs up, Evans isn't.

http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/gif-jonjo-shelveys-brutal-tackle-on-jonny-evans-liverpool-v-manchester-united/

It's reckless?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 23, 2012, 06:48:49 PM
Our lack of goals means I don't share your sentiment about going unbeaten until mid february. We have Everton away end of October. We have Chelsea and Spurs and Newcastle at home in November. In December we have West Ham, Stoke and QPR away. In January we have Man U and Arsenal away. Our lack of goals means that I can't see us getting many wins or draws away from during that period.

The goals will come sooner rather than later mate. A team that play this well is bound to get luck on their side. Just look at Spurs against Rangers. With that kind of luck we'd won 6-2 today.

Against City the ball bounce off Kelly to the only City player in the area, after 6 minutes today it just passes Gerrard. With a little bit of luck we'd been up 2-0 at half-time it's just that this goal-drought mantra seems to have have become a self-fullfilling prophecy. Again, I can see us go on a very very long unbeaten run from here on. The hard luck we had thus far will even out.

Extremly proud of the team and its effort! :)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 23, 2012, 06:55:11 PM
do me a favour and shut the feck up.

if Rafa had had Liverpool's worst start in over a century, you'd be kicking him all around Anfield.

but here you are, telling us it will all come good.

well, you wanted rid of Rafa, and now you have what you want.

you (and Martin) have made your bed and you're gonna have to lie in it.

Having a very good nights' sleep at that. You're so bitter and negative it's almost hilarious. You harp on about how long you followed the game. Still you're unable see we play better than we have since Rafa's first two seasons before his narcisisstic ego took over? I'm slowly starting to think winning no. 19 would leave your disappointed.  Under Rafa we were boring, one-dimensional, predictable, clueless, unimaginative what have you. Thank fukc his balanced crap is gone. At least we'll never have to watch this crap again:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t00D23R63ig  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t00D23R63ig)

What we saw today was the future and in my modest opinion it looks bright.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Juan on September 23, 2012, 06:59:31 PM
from the first few games of this season, I keep thinking of Forest's relegation season - and the mantra, that with the football they were playing, they were "too good to go down"

we are highly unbalanced, and poorly set up in defence, midfield and attack.  I can envisage the poorest season unfolding in front of us, in the months ahead.  I see us as being bottom eight material.

Now, as is often the case, teams start to perform better as the season progresses (the likes of everton and arsenal are typically always slow starters).  I just hope we can develop better understandings and push on.  Fingers crossed (or else it is gonna be a long hard season).

The problem for us is that goals win you games. We dont have a consistent amount of goals amongst us. At one point in the first half we had 65% of the possession. Thats no good if you cant score. Suarez isnt a reliable goal scorer.

Aside from todays good performance I actually think we are in trouble. Maybe not relegation trouble but we are going to struggle to make mid table as a result of there being nobody in the team to score.

Its not Rodgers fault, there was never the funds there to buy a 25 goal a season player but where he might take some criticism is for not looking harder at Evertons Mirallis or Demba Ba for the matter. 6 or 7 million on either of them and our season could have a different look to it.

I dont think we will have to worry about not having a recognised striker on the bench much longer though. Today proved Borini is not a wide player. Either start him down the middle or leave him on the bench. Hes wasted where hes played.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 23, 2012, 07:12:30 PM
will you judge him in the same way you judged Rafa?

will finishing, say in seventh spot in the premiership see you want Rodgers fired?

This season isn't about where we finish in the table, that isn't my primary concern. My primary concern is that for once we can build a vision and a strategy that can last and that we can see progress of Brendan implementing his ideals onto the squad. As long as we complete with the rest of the top 7 then for this season I am more than willing to forsake the short term and the losses which come with that for a long term build in which Rodgers can build the squad and implement the ideals he wants to see us play.

So my answer is no in terms of league placing this season i will not judge Rodgers. As long as I see progress in the way Rodgers wants us to play then I'll be happy this season. If for example we don't see progress in terms of Rodgers implementing his ideals onto the squad and we are floundering in the league, then that is another question.

Alas so far we have seen progress in terms of us controlling the game and keeping the ball more.  But there is a long way to go and it won't be complete imo for another 2 years possibly 3 years. I believe the implementation will be complete by them and I for one will settle for that because Rodgers is right he may be  gone once we reap what he will sow for us because this implementation and ideals Rodgers has will last us for the a long time and may out live Rodgers time at Liverpool. He was right to say that.

The key is to see signs of progress I see it and I am a patient man. There will be many more lows believe me until we see Rodgers plan come to fruition.

But we have to start somewhere. We cannot keep having short term strategies as it does not work........unless you are a multi billionaire.


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 23, 2012, 07:26:52 PM
Not only is he a man with a clear philosophy on the game but also couragous with a belief in talent. A man down against United at half time and he brings Suso on! Before that chucks Sterling and Coates in against City. How can you not like a manager like that?

Showing faith in Sterling and Suso is a far cry from the man who picked the useless Joe Cole ahead of them at West Brom. Or playing it safe by playing the more experienced Downing ahead of Sterling in the big games.

Seems to learn fast and he'll need to in this job.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 23, 2012, 07:28:43 PM
This season isn't about where we finish in the table, that isn't my primary concern.
Seriously that's the most ridiculous statement I've read on this forum in ages.

What the f.uck are you on about??

If we finish 18th, 19th or 20th we get relegated.

Spare me the crap that you have some deep knowledge about how our fortunes
will evolve over the next few years, you know as little as the next person. It's LFC
IT MATTERS WHERE WE FINISH IN THE LEAGUE.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 07:35:36 PM
You're so bitter and negative it's almost hilarious.

you're unable see we play better than we have since Rafa's first two seasons before his narcisisstic ego took over?

Under Rafa we were boring, one-dimensional, predictable, clueless, unimaginative what have you. Thank fukc his balanced crap is gone.

you wouldn't recognise good football if it were being played in your back garden.

success is all about balance.

I don't know why I waste good earth-time trying to argue the basics with you.

there is nothing worse than an arrogant ignoramus.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 23, 2012, 07:36:05 PM
Seriously that's the most ridiculous statement I've read on this forum in ages.

What the f.uck are you on about??

If we finish 18th, 19th or 20th we get relegated.

Spare me the crap that you have some deep knowledge about how our fortunes
will evolve over the next few years, you know as little as the next person. It's LFC
IT MATTERS WHERE WE FINISH IN THE LEAGUE.

Well if you want to sacrifice long term vision and strategy and stick to short termism then that is your prerogative. Me I am willing to sacrifice the short term failures for the long term vision and I have belief in Brendan that he can do it.

I never said I had any deep knowledge over our fortunes over the next few years but that is exactly my point. By implementing a long term vision and ideals onto the squad we can then have something to point to and something to gear towards.

5th, 6th, 7th etc really it doesn't matter. We won't finish top 4 and we won't go down. So we have the opportunity to build something great.

That is my primary concern. Results will take care of itself once we have taken every measure to succeed in the long term.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 07:43:24 PM
The problem for us is that goals win you games. We dont have a consistent amount of goals amongst us. At one point in the first half we had 65% of the possession. Thats no good if you cant score. Suarez isnt a reliable goal scorer.

Aside from todays good performance I actually think we are in trouble. Maybe not relegation trouble but we are going to struggle to make mid table as a result of there being nobody in the team to score.

Its not Rodgers fault, there was never the funds there to buy a 25 goal a season player but where he might take some criticism is for not looking harder at Evertons Mirallis or Demba Ba for the matter. 6 or 7 million on either of them and our season could have a different look to it.

I dont think we will have to worry about not having a recognised striker on the bench much longer though. Today proved Borini is not a wide player. Either start him down the middle or leave him on the bench. Hes wasted where hes played.

we have been saying it for ages, Juan......Suarez may be world class at creating chances, but he is rubbish at converting them.  When you do not take your chances, and are leaking goals at the back, you are always gonna struggle to draw or win games.

like you, I fear for us this season.  We are not playing mid-table football.  We are playing bottom eight level football.  Now, as we get more used to each other, we may well do better.  But we are mid-table at best.   

I fear, and I said this several times in the close season, that with the fixtures we have, that we could well find ourselves in a premiership dogfight mess by Christmas. 

As well as having no clear goalscorers at the club, we have a half-baked midfield, and a struggling defence.

And we have a manager who has no plan b.......and I do fear that other managers have already figured him out.

This is gonna be a long depressing season.



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 07:46:14 PM
Not only is he a man with a clear philosophy on the game but also couragous with a belief in talent.

apart from the notion of passing the ball to each other, what is his philosophy?


Seems to learn fast and he'll need to in this job.

if he's learning fast, why have we got off to our worst league start in well over a century?

and why did he let Carroll leave, when we had no other recognised goal scorer?

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 23, 2012, 07:51:02 PM
Well if you want to sacrifice long term vision and strategy and stick to short termism then that is your prerogative. Me I am willing to sacrifice the short term failures for the long term vision and I have belief in Brendan that he can do it.
Here we go.

It's LFC and it matters where we finish in the the table. Fine, if you want to have
some lofty position on matters but please don't tell me that it's the Liverpool football
club that Bill Shankly built if it doesn't matter where we finish in the table. It does.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 08:02:08 PM
anyone who doubts that we are in a very serious run of form, needs to look at the data.

if we look at our premiership results across this year to date, 2012, we have:

Played - 24,  Won – 5,  Drawn – 5,  Lost – 14

Averaged across a 38 game season, that is equivalent to 31 points.

That is most definitely RELEGATION FORM.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 23, 2012, 08:12:53 PM
Watch Fergie grinning at the end of this:

http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/jonjo-shelvey-accuses-sir-alex-ferguson-thats-your-fault-after-sending-off-liverpool-manchester-united/

I thought JonJo was reckless, and I've said it before, but I dearly love
the boy for having a pop at SAF.

I don't buy into any of what Fergie says about our club. It's a worry for me
that we don't have a fierce competitor and serial winner in charge of the club
at the moment. A big worry.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 23, 2012, 08:19:57 PM
This season isn't about where we finish in the table, that isn't my primary concern. My primary concern is that for once we can build a vision and a strategy that can last and that we can see progress of Brendan implementing his ideals onto the squad. As long as we complete with the rest of the top 7 then for this season I am more than willing to forsake the short term and the losses which come with that for a long term build in which Rodgers can build the squad and implement the ideals he wants to see us play.

So my answer is no in terms of league placing this season i will not judge Rodgers. As long as I see progress in the way Rodgers wants us to play then I'll be happy this season. If for example we don't see progress in terms of Rodgers implementing his ideals onto the squad and we are floundering in the league, then that is another question.

Alas so far we have seen progress in terms of us controlling the game and keeping the ball more.  But there is a long way to go and it won't be complete imo for another 2 years possibly 3 years. I believe the implementation will be complete by them and I for one will settle for that because Rodgers is right he may be  gone once we reap what he will sow for us because this implementation and ideals Rodgers has will last us for the a long time and may out live Rodgers time at Liverpool. He was right to say that.

The key is to see signs of progress I see it and I am a patient man. There will be many more lows believe me until we see Rodgers plan come to fruition.

But we have to start somewhere. We cannot keep having short term strategies as it does not work........unless you are a multi billionaire.

I second EVERY word of that. The progress made in this short timefram is nothing short of remarkable. For the first time since we last won the league we play a possession-based footy that sees us control the opponents in a way Rafa could only dream about with his ultra-negative 4-5-1 game. For the first time since God knows when it is exciting to watch us play. True, we struggle to get goals but I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that once the goals starts coming we, as a club, won't look back.

It's so smallminded to judge us merely on how we finish. I'd much rather we finish 7th this season but make steady progress than play a negative game that will see us scrap 4th with minimum probability we'll repeat that feat any time soon.

We're so moving in the right direction and THAT's what matter at this point.

Again Dude, could you please repeat how many points Rafa scraped from his first 4 games as manager of Valencia? I answered your three questions earlier to the best of my knowledge. Too bad you couldn't answer my single question.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 23, 2012, 08:22:46 PM
anyone who doubts that we are in a very serious run of form, needs to look at the data.

if we look at our premiership results across this year to date, 2012, we have:

Played - 24,  Won – 5,  Drawn – 5,  Lost – 14

Averaged across a 38 game season, that is equivalent to 31 points.

That is most definitely RELEGATION FORM.

That's about the most stupid attempt at making an analysis I've seen in a very very long time. What's next? Your declaration as in fact the real humpty dumpty?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 23, 2012, 08:23:32 PM
Watch Fergie grinning at the end of this:

http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/jonjo-shelvey-accuses-sir-alex-ferguson-thats-your-fault-after-sending-off-liverpool-manchester-united/

I thought JonJo was reckless, and I've said it before, but I dearly love
the boy for having a pop at SAF.

I don't buy into any of what Fergie says about our club. It's a worry for me
that we don't have a fierce competitor and serial winner in charge of the club
at the moment. A big worry.

Oh, but we do and one day you'll regret having ever written that post.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 08:28:57 PM
Again Dude, could you please repeat how many points Rafa scraped from his first 4 games as manager of Valencia? I answered your three questions earlier to the best of my knowledge.

what are you on about.

we did not recruit Rafa based on his first 4 games at Valencia.

in the same way that United did not recruit Ferguson based on his 4 results with Aberdeen.

what point are you trying to make?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 08:30:44 PM
That's about the most stupid attempt at making an analysis I've seen in a very very long time.

yes, data has never been your friend, Martin.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 23, 2012, 08:31:59 PM

Just thinking about it that Suso sub really sent out a message. It would have been so easy for him to put someone in there like Sahin or Henderson. Someone with more experience instead of an 18 year old kid who's never played in the premier league before.

That took massive balls and huge belief. Not a single one of the managers I've seen at LFC in the last 25 years would have done that. They'd have gone for the safer option.

It sends an absolutely fantastic message to the entire squad. Suso did well on Thursday thus he got game time today. That simple. Perform and you'll get your chance. Too often in the last few years, players who haven't performed would still get in the team on name alone whereas players who did ok wouldnt get a look in.

It works the reverse too. No Downing in the squad was very telling. No price tag will dictate who gets in. Ok, so some could point at Carra being in the squad. But when Agger was suspended, it was Coates who filled in against City not Carra.

He needs results in, no doubt about that. But 2 points from 15 and yet noone's turned on him. Think everyone is pretty clear about the challenges ahead and the plan he's trying to implement. And I think all of us are behind that.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 23, 2012, 08:33:26 PM
Here we go.

It's LFC and it matters where we finish in the the table. Fine, if you want to have
some lofty position on matters but please don't tell me that it's the Liverpool football
club that Bill Shankly built if it doesn't matter where we finish in the table. It does.

Will we finish top 4? NO will we be relegated? NO We will finish either 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th. So in reality it doesn't matter 5th or 8th.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 23, 2012, 08:36:51 PM
what are you on about.

we did not recruit Rafa based on his first 4 games at Valencia.

in the same way that United did not recruit Ferguson based on his 4 results with Aberdeen.

what point are you trying to make?

That you tiredlessly harp on about how inexperienced and crap Brendan is and that the results thus far confirm that notion. I'm just saying that Rafa started off with 4 straight defeats at Mestalla and subsequently went on to lead Valencia to their first leaguetitle in 31 years.

Bottom line being: YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT A CREDIBLE ANALYSIS AS TO HOW WE'LL FARE UNDER BRENDAN!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 23, 2012, 08:39:23 PM
yes, data has never been your friend, Martin.

Twisting them in to suit your negative agenda with no intellectual intent, however, seems to be a favorite pastime of yours.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 23, 2012, 08:39:31 PM
Will we finish top 4? NO will we be relegated? NO We will finish either 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th. So in reality it doesn't matter 5th or 8th.
Oh look, you miss the point. It matters where we finish in the league.

A team doesn't progress from one season to the next if it doesn't.
Every game and every point is important. There can be no other attitude.

btw, does it matter if we finish 9th?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 23, 2012, 08:45:30 PM
what are you on about.

we did not recruit Rafa based on his first 4 games at Valencia.

in the same way that United did not recruit Ferguson based on his 4 results with Aberdeen.

what point are you trying to make?

I stand to be corrected on this, but is it not the case that Rafa beat
Real Madrid in his first league game in charge at Valencia. A game in
which Zidane was making his debut.

It makes no difference, it's well documented that Rafa had struggles in his
first season in charge. What's your point??
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 23, 2012, 08:46:02 PM
Oh look, you miss the point. It matters where we finish in the league.

A team doesn't progress from one season to the next if it doesn't.
Every game and every point is important. There can be no other attitude.

btw, does it matter if we finish 9th?

What I think Ed's saying is that the primary aim of this season is to see qualitative improvement rather than finishing 6th or 9th. All in all we were never likely to finish in the top 4 so what's the fuss?

Every point counts indeed but with the performances hitherto I feel for the first time in a decade we could go on a long winning streak. The goals will come - just look at Suarez, Borini and Sterling in the first half. And that after just a handful of games. It is painful to read the table but that will change sooner rather than later. Just look at Spurs. They have nothing about them that suggest they'll win the title any time soon, let alone finishing 4th. Would you really want to swap with them? I know I wouldn't. For the first time in a very long time I'm really really proud of the team and the footy it produces.  :)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 23, 2012, 08:47:43 PM
I stand to be corrected on this, but is it not the case that Rafa beat
Real Madrid in his first league game in charge at Valencia. A game in
which Zidane was making his debut.

It makes no difference, it's well documented that Rafa had struggles in his
first season in charge. What's your point??

First of all you're wrong. He lost his first 4 games as manager of Valencia. Secondly, my point is that few probably realised then he'd lead them to their first La Liga win in 31 years. Maybe we should be just a little more patient? No?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 23, 2012, 08:52:50 PM
First of all you're wrong. He lost his first 4 games as manager of Valencia. Secondly, my point is that few probably realised then he'd lead them to their first La Liga win in 31 years. Maybe we should be just a little more patient? No?
FFS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001%E2%80%9302_Valencia_CF_season

Fact.  :P
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 23, 2012, 08:54:11 PM
Oh look, you miss the point. It matters where we finish in the league.

A team doesn't progress from one season to the next if it doesn't.
Every game and every point is important. There can be no other attitude.

btw, does it matter if we finish 9th?

Well you keep missing my point.

You see progress in terms of climbing the league table and whilst in generic terms I see that as progress too, we need to look deeper into things rather than our league placement.

If you and I can see we are trying to implement a new style of play, a new set of ideals that Rodgers wants us to play and a long term vision that he has for us then for me progress is watching that come together and all of that coming to fruition.

Such is life that before any vision can come to light that there will be ups and downs and major inconsistencies. This comes with it and we all have to learn that these inconsistencies comes with it and as such in the short term it will have a negative impact in terms of getting results and in term have a negative effect on where we will finish in the league.

It seems you are either unwilling or unable to accept that and not just you but others also.

I WILL be on the same boat as you complaining about our results and league placement if there are no signs at all of progress - but I do see embryotic stages of progress.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 23, 2012, 09:01:13 PM
So what is everyone's definition of 'improvement' over first this, and then next season. Take the two seasons as a whole or individually.


As for implementing any style of football (irrespective of who's name is above the manager's door) the only football worth implementing is winning football.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 23, 2012, 09:01:34 PM
Well you keep missing my point.

You see progress in terms of climbing the league table and whilst in generic terms I see that as progress too, we need to look deeper into things rather than our league placement.

If you and I can see we are trying to implement a new style of play, a new set of ideals that Rodgers wants us to play and a long term vision that he has for us then for me progress is watching that come together and all of that coming to fruition.

Such is life that before any vision can come to light that there will be ups and downs and major inconsistencies. This comes with it and we all have to learn that these inconsistencies comes with it and as such in the short term it will have a negative impact in terms of getting results and in term have a negative effect on where we will finish in the league.

It seems you are either unwilling or unable to accept that and not just you but others also.

I WILL be on the same boat as you complaining about our results and league placement if there are no signs at all of progress - but I do see embryotic stages of progress.
Look, have I called for the manager to be sacked? No.

Have I not said that I wouldn't be surprised if we had a
shine-a-light start? Yes.

Do I particularly like the manager? No, sorry I can't help that.

Would I be more supportive of him if he shut up and stopped
marvelling at the sound of his own voice? Yes.

Now where we appear to differ is that you are optimistic about
this appointment for reasons of your own and I'm deeply suspicious.
There's a long way to go in the season yet, so we'll see.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 23, 2012, 09:11:02 PM
There's been so much made both in the media and by Rodgers (either refers to or infers) of 'his' style and type of football, but just 'what' is it that apparently makes it both so 'different' and 'stand out'?

I ask, because I really can't see, from everything I've read and heard, what and where these differences are that make it apparently so 'unique' and rarely seen before.

I'm not being sarky, I'm being genuine.     
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 09:24:16 PM
FFS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001%E2%80%9302_Valencia_CF_season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001%E2%80%9302_Valencia_CF_season)

Fact.  :P

 :D

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 23, 2012, 09:27:20 PM
There's been so much made both in the media and by Rodgers (either refers to or infers) of 'his' style and type of football, but just 'what' is it that apparently makes it both so 'different' and 'stand out'?

I ask, because I really can't see, from everything I've read and heard, what and where these differences are that make it apparently so 'unique' and rarely seen before.

I'm not being sarky, I'm being genuine.   

I have asked the same question, Tes  (though, unlike you, I was most likely being a tad sarky)

beyond the grand notion of passing the ball to a fellow red, what grandeous new philosophy does Rodgers bring to the table?

nada, nothing, zip, zero, nuthin
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 23, 2012, 10:25:48 PM
As far as having possession goes, it's not the amount of possession or the mere fact that you have possession, it's what is done with that possession. It would be interesting to see the amount of possession the Mourinho led Chelsea had in their Championship winning seasons in percentage.

I read something the other day where Rodgers claims that teams who win regularly average a 79% possession count.

Now my maths isn't up there with Einstein's but that roughly equates to around 71 minutes per game, leaving approximately 19 minutes when you don't have the ball. That's not too far off a quarter of the match.
Now how do you equate his idea that we defend with the ball, by having the ball.

As we are not going to have the ball for approximately a fifth of the game (once his ideas are fully achieved), how are we to defend for all that time? So far our defending this season has seen us concede more than an average of two goals a game in the league, which would equate to 76+ over a season. Actually that's not true (hopefully) as that average shouldn't be maintained throughout the whole season.

But again, I need help in understanding how we are to defend, as relying on having the ball as a means of defending seems illogical, so how does Rodgers' methods work on the defensive side of the game?   
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 24, 2012, 12:16:54 AM
Twisting data to suit your negative agenda with no intellectual intent, however, seems to be a favorite pastime of yours.

what, like claiming that Rafa had lost his first four games after his appointment at Valencia, when in fact he had won 2, and drawn 2? 

Valencia-Real Madrid 1-0
Valladolid-Valencia 1-1
Valencia-Las Palmas 1-0
Athletic Bilbao-Valencia 2-2

Is that an example of corruptly using data to push a negative agenda, that you had in mind?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 24, 2012, 09:30:26 AM
FFS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001%E2%80%9302_Valencia_CF_season

Fact.  :P

I stand corrected. My bad, fault, what have you. I know I read somewhere he didn't get off flying when taking over at Mestalla, it must have been a previous assignment.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 24, 2012, 09:39:19 AM
There's been so much made both in the media and by Rodgers (either refers to or infers) of 'his' style and type of football, but just 'what' is it that apparently makes it both so 'different' and 'stand out'?

I ask, because I really can't see, from everything I've read and heard, what and where these differences are that make it apparently so 'unique' and rarely seen before.

I'm not being sarky, I'm being genuine.   

I can see it in the way we move, in the way the players actually look like they're enjoying their game (which was not the case for years on years during GH and Rafa). I can see it in the tempo with which we move the ball.

I just have this feeling though Tes, that IF Skrtel had not passed that stupid ball, or if we'd enjoyed just a bit of luck with the bounce in the 7th minute yesterday and Halsey hadn't been hellbent on winning the game for United I'm sure you would've seen it too. I seriously and honestly do not understand the reaction among so many fans. The club's been run in a spectacularly poor fashion for over a decade and it needs fixing at every level. The way I see it progress can be seen at a level I didn't expect until December.

I'm not blaming it on bad although it would be fair to say we had our fair share of it thus far. The important thing is that we learn to capitalise on the great footy we're playing.

All in all a team that plays this well is bound to get rewarded sooner rather than later. As I wrote elsewhere, and most probably in contradiction to what most others feel, I have for the first time in over a decade the feeling we could go on a 6-7 game winning streak. That's something we only managed once in Rafas 6 years (easy there Ed I actually checked that one).

As for progress, I think it's about implementing a structure, an identity, an idea that the players understand and are being loyal to. Next season I think we could demand more in terms of where we finish but this season was, in all reality, always about getting the club to pull in one direction at every level not finishing in this or that position. At least that's the way I see it. I know for a fact this will be the best season in a very long time.

Keep the faith!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on September 24, 2012, 11:41:08 AM
I walked after the penalty gift to united...it was obvious we had no chance to win with the ref in that frame of mind...i think he wanted to be the star while hillsborough, evra/suarez gate took second place...his decisions became a joke..

having said that...if suarez spent more time on his feet he might get some more decisions...
the game was crying out for a little bit of experience from creative players...the insanity of letting maxi, kuyt and bellamy was all too relevant yesterday...
seeing suso play was excellent to see..
i saw nice passing yesterday which to be fair to rodgers it beats most of last season when we couldn't pass the ball for toffee...
nice passing but no end result...borini was useless in that position so ffs play him is his preferred strikers role...if he can score 2 against inter milan then he can do it on the big stage...but we have to use him correctly...
there's no way united will win the league...they'll be lucky with 4th...the only thing that may get them higher is referees ...

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 24, 2012, 11:45:36 AM
I walked after the penalty gift to united...it was obvious we had no chance to win with the ref in that frame of mind...i think he wanted to be the star while hillsborough, evra/suarez gate took second place...his decisions became a joke..

having said that...if suarez spent more time on his feet he might get some more decisions...
the game was crying out for a little bit of experience from creative players...the insanity of letting maxi, kuyt and bellamy was all too relevant yesterday...
seeing suso play was excellent to see..
i saw nice passing yesterday which to be fair to rodgers it beats most of last season when we couldn't pass the ball for toffee...
nice passing but no end result...borini was useless in that position so ffs play him is his preferred strikers role...if he can score 2 against inter milan then he can do it on the big stage...but we have to use him correctly...
there's no way united will win the league...they'll be lucky with 4th...the only thing that may get them higher is referees ...

Hmm, I actually thought Borini had his best game thus far with nice runs and hard work ethic creating space and help keeping our tempo high. But I can see where you come from suggesting he should be played in the center. Agree, the mancs will never win it tho Webb and Halsey may think differently.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 24, 2012, 04:07:09 PM
I walked after the penalty gift to united...it was obvious we had no chance to win with the ref in that frame of mind.

if suarez spent more time on his feet he might get some more decisions...

the game was crying out for a little bit of experience from creative players...the insanity of letting maxi, kuyt and bellamy was all too relevant yesterday...

nice passing but no end result...borini was useless in that position so ffs play him in his preferred strikers role..

agreed.

we gave our quality attackers away, and replaced them with bog standard finishers.

unless we can turn possession into goals, we are sunk.

yes, if suarez had not done a swan lake with his head movement, we would have had a penalty. Well i say that, but who knows what Halsey would have done.  I can imagine the odd decision going against us, but when ALL THE DECISIONS go against us, I then start to wonder WTF is going on here.  And I REALLY mean that. 

Borini is wasted out wide.  If he was played more central, we would finally see if he was up to much (or merely another bad buy).  But we need to know, sooner rather than later.

And Suarez needs to be told, in no uncertain terms, that he is a cr.ap finisher and to fecking pass the ball to better placed colleagues, and stop squandering ALL OUR OPPORTUNITIES.



 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 25, 2012, 12:42:59 AM
Well said Alan Hansen!

"No matter how you dress it up, two points out of a possible 15 includes no good or positive news."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/9561705/Liverpool-manager-Brendan-Rodgers-may-need-to-adapt-as-Manchester-United-show-how-to-grind-out-win.html

It's strange fans appear to be so willing to formulate hypotheses that
everything is going to be alright based on nothing. I recognise that
we've had a poor start and am not particularly surprised by it but think we'd
want to start putting some points on the board and forget about it being
great throwing points away and all the misfortune!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on September 25, 2012, 05:38:50 AM

It's strange fans appear to be so willing to formulate hypotheses that
everything is going to be alright based on nothing. I recognise that
we've had a poor start and am not particularly surprised by it but think we'd
want to start putting some points on the board and forget about it being
great throwing points away and all the misfortune!

The next game against Norwich is a massive one...we usually do well against the top 4 (remember when we were part of that?) and come unstuck against smaller teams...with kelly and agger out for a good while...and our lack of spark up front it should be interesting...
Up until now, we've had the 'transition stage' and the 'tough games against us' routine and so the crowd and fans have been very understanding but if we fail to get a full 3 points and at least 7 in the next 3 games, we'll be firmly rooted in the relegation zone and that in itself will bring murmurs of discontent...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 25, 2012, 09:13:17 AM
The next game against Norwich is a massive one...we usually do well against the top 4 (remember when we were part of that?) and come unstuck against smaller teams...with kelly and agger out for a good while...and our lack of spark up front it should be interesting...
Up until now, we've had the 'transition stage' and the 'tough games against us' routine and so the crowd and fans have been very understanding but if we fail to get a full 3 points and at least 7 in the next 3 games, we'll be firmly rooted in the relegation zone and that in itself will bring murmurs of discontent...

While the same applies to Norwich which makes this a tougher task than it may seem on paper. I agree with you tho. The real test, IMHO, will be Stoke at home. If we can break them down in style and seal a win you could argue some deep changes is about to take place as we've struggled against them at home recently. Well in fact, so did Chelsea on Saturday but escaped somewhat luckily with 3 points and no sending off despite Luiz launching a two-foot challenge much worse than Shelvey's.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 26, 2012, 01:01:48 PM
We're not the only ones who seem to see there is a different way of refereeing where the Mancs are involved:

Martinez hit with FA charge

Roberto Martinez has been charged by the FA for comments made about the referee following Wigan's defeat at Manchester United on September 15.

The Latics lost 4-0 at Old Trafford during which he was unhappy about a penalty awarded to the hosts as well as a Danny Welbeck challenge on Franco di Santo which he felt warranted a red card.

After the match, Martinez said: "I have come to United three times before today and for whatever reason we don't seem to be measured in the same manner as the team at home.

"Today the penalty is as bad a decision as you are going to see in the Premier League.

"In many ways, you feel as though you are fighting against a mountain.

"There were tackles flying around that if they had been the other way round there would have been a couple of red cards."


http://www.football365.com/news/21554/8111566/Martinez-hit-with-FA-charge (http://www.football365.com/news/21554/8111566/Martinez-hit-with-FA-charge)

He could quite easily be talking about our game on Sunday. In fact it seems disturbingly familiar and repetitive.

Maybe managers should do what Taggart does. Come out in press conferences the week they are due to play the Mancs and 'talk' about how they never a get a penalty but under far lesser challenges the Mancs 'always' do. Also talk about Scholes 'tackling' and the lack of red cards and also how it takes a greater amount of foul play from any Manc player before a card of any sort is produced.

Apart from those like Fat Sham, who hang on Taggart's every word, there should be a concerted campaign by each manager in their press conferences in the days leading up to a game against the Mancs, but don't do it in any way that can be twisted into a 'rant' by the media. Do it as 'throwaway' comments like Taggart does and if it's picked up on it by the reporters in the press conference (which it will be), refuse to discuss it further, but again in a calm, almost dismissive, way.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 26, 2012, 01:09:34 PM
We've played 5 league games.  In 40% of those games (2/5), Brendan has seen a man get sent off; not only that, but sent off during a time when the outcome was still undecided.  Those two red cards cost us at least two points, if not more.  Brendan has seen his side dominate both Manchester sides and come away with only a single point.  Within all of that, the supporters have seen a team in transition.  Week one against West Brom, Agger was sent off.  The rest of the team hung thier heads and quit on the manager and took a hiding.  One month later against one of the best teams in the league, we went to 10 men, but fought our asses off.  A one-eyed supporter could see the difference in attitude over that month.  We have major problems with the squad right now:  depth (with injuries), youth, lack of scorer, etc.  But one of the problems is not the man in the suit on the touchline.

He has said and done all of the right things.  That is not to say he hasnt made some small errors, every man will.  But his attitude toward the club is right.  His attitude toward the players is right.  His attitude toward the supporters is right.  He uses substitutions as tactical weapons (how many times have we asked for this).  He has placed his trust in his players, young and old.  At times they have let him down, but I feel over the course of the season, his trust in this club will be repaid.

I dont know where we will end up in the table at the end of season.  I do know that there are still some areas that need to be addressed, but the man in the Red and White striped tie is not one of them, at least for me.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 26, 2012, 02:20:12 PM
We've played 5 league games.  In 40% of those games (2/5), Brendan has seen a man get sent off; not only that, but sent off during a time when the outcome was still undecided.  Those two red cards cost us at least two points, if not more.  Brendan has seen his side dominate both Manchester sides and come away with only a single point.  Within all of that, the supporters have seen a team in transition.  Week one against West Brom, Agger was sent off.  The rest of the team hung thier heads and quit on the manager and took a hiding.  One month later against one of the best teams in the league, we went to 10 men, but fought our asses off.  A one-eyed supporter could see the difference in attitude over that month.  We have major problems with the squad right now:  depth (with injuries), youth, lack of scorer, etc.  But one of the problems is not the man in the suit on the touchline.

He has said and done all of the right things.  That is not to say he hasnt made some small errors, every man will.  But his attitude toward the club is right.  His attitude toward the players is right.  His attitude toward the supporters is right.  He uses substitutions as tactical weapons (how many times have we asked for this).  He has placed his trust in his players, young and old.  At times they have let him down, but I feel over the course of the season, his trust in this club will be repaid.

I dont know where we will end up in the table at the end of season.  I do know that there are still some areas that need to be addressed, but the man in the Red and White striped tie is not one of them, at least for me.

I'm gonna frame that post. Brilliantly put Ed mate. I would also like to repeat my mantra that a team that outplays both Man C and Man U will come good sooner rather than later. It's incredible how fans can be so obsessed with the table after a mere 5 games. That's unheard of really. Instead, and as you point out, poor decision making and a couple of individual mistakes, however horrendous, cost us at least 5 points. To be frank, I'd much rather take 2 points and all the positives that's there to see, than 7 games of Dalglishesque/Rafaesqu footy with no hope of long-term improvement and development.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 26, 2012, 02:58:45 PM
Some of us didn't want Dalglish appointing before he was appointed and we spelt out our reasons clearly, so the converted are hearing what they already believe.

As for comparisons with Benitez, we're on our third manager since he left so I'm not sure why he is brought up all the time when there's a 'point to be proven'.

Maybe it's a generation thing or it may depend where each of us comes from, but some of us are from the generation and/or it's a regional thing where we prefer action to words and feel uncomfortable when there is so much 'talking' being done, when we'd prefer heads to be kept down, mouths rested and let's see the substance materialise rather than keep hearing words.

Compliments have been paid to Rodgers where people think they're due (look in the league cup thread, there's one there re the chances given to young lads) but whether we like it or not we keep being told (and see it defined by actions) that it's 'a results based business' so we'll see what happens.

As for the table after 5 games etc, there didn't ever used to be one published until 6 or 7 games had been played, but it's another modern idiom we have to contend with now. It's not the table as such, as nothing happens to your team based on where they are after 5 games (no trophies handed out or relegation axes wielded) but people are bound to be concerned by the lack of points picked up. Irrespective of 'anything' else and cases can be made one way or the other, it's only the points that actually 'count'. Lost points cost positions and ultimately cash and sometimes status.

Don't confuse a lack of a constant stream of positive words or sentiments pro the manager for a lack of desire to see the guy succeed. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 26, 2012, 03:35:33 PM
Some of us didn't want Dalglish appointing before he was appointed and we spelt out our reasons clearly, so the converted are hearing what they already believe.

As for comparisons with Benitez, we're on our third manager since he left so I'm not sure why he is brought up all the time when there's a 'point to be proven'.

Maybe it's a generation thing or it may depend where each of us comes from, but some of us are from the generation and/or it's a regional thing where we prefer action to words and feel uncomfortable when there is so much 'talking' being done, when we'd prefer heads to be kept down, mouths rested and let's see the substance materialise rather than keep hearing words.

Compliments have been paid to Rodgers where people think they're due (look in the league cup thread, there's one there re the chances given to young lads) but whether we like it or not we keep being told (and see it defined by actions) that it's 'a results based business' so we'll see what happens.

As for the table after 5 games etc, there didn't ever used to be one published until 6 or 7 games had been played, but it's another modern idiom we have to contend with now. It's not the table as such, as nothing happens to your team based on where they are after 5 games (no trophies handed out or relegation axes wielded) but people are bound to be concerned by the lack of points picked up. Irrespective of 'anything' else and cases can be made one way or the other, it's only the points that actually 'count'. Lost points cost positions and ultimately cash and sometimes status.

Don't confuse a lack of a constant stream of positive words or sentiments pro the manager for a lack of desire to see the guy succeed. 
Well put Tes!

I'd like to add the hallmark of a good team is one that plays bad and wins,
we appear to be going down some route where it's glorious to play well and
lose/draw.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 26, 2012, 04:52:19 PM
Well put Tes!

I'd like to add the hallmark of a good team is one that plays bad and wins,
we appear to be going down some route where it's glorious to play well and
lose/draw.

That axiom Ed, however, and I think you know it pretty damn well, most often apply to mature, experienced and "finished" teams, hardly sides (and young at that) during their first steps towards implementing a new style of play with a new manager at the helm.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 26, 2012, 05:14:55 PM
That axiom Ed, however, and I think you know it pretty damn well, most often apply to mature, experienced and "finished" teams, hardly sides (and young at that) during their first steps towards implementing a new style of play with a new manager at the helm.
Maybe. Some people applauded the introduction of Suso. They point to his role
in the goal, a shot well saved, a beautiful through ball and a generally unruffled
performance. I balance the books by looking at his pass to Agger that led to their 2nd.

It's not a question of having a go at the youngster, he did well considering,
but I'm justified in questioning the motivation and judgement of the manager
in the circumstances. Sure, everyone wants to fall back on the refereeing performance,
but at the heart of what cost us the 3 points was a decision by the manager to
throw a vastly inexperienced player into a very important match?

I'm just saying is all. This is the same guy who let Andy Carroll go without having a
replacement lined up. There's a knock-on effect. Borini gets injured, throw Carroll on,
Ferdinand was struggling a bit with an injury and Johson & Kelly were marauding down
the flanks all afternoon.

Kelly                       Johnson
       Gerrard, Allen
  Suarez         Sterling     
             Carroll

I have no idea if that would have worked but it was an option before considering the Suso
move.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 26, 2012, 06:33:06 PM
That axiom Ed, however, and I think you know it pretty damn well, most often apply to mature, experienced and "finished" teams, hardly sides (and young at that) during their first steps towards implementing a new style of play with a new manager at the helm.

Tes and myself have asked this question previously.......exactly what is our new style of play?

passing the ball to your colleague is not an original thought.

and the last time I checked, the league authorities were not awarding points for performance, or pass completion rates.

does rodgers philosophy involve alienating and then lending out our only recognised striker at the club?

does rodgers philosophy include letting a striker, who has played in World Cup and Champions League finals, leave for peanuts, to be replaced with a young Italian lad that could barely get a game for Chelsea, for nearly 11 million quid?

does rodgers philosophy involve us having our worst ever start to a league campaign in our 120 year history?

maybe this rebuilding exercise also involves us heading down to the championship?

but I am keen to know - beyond passing the ball to a colleague, what does our dugout supremo's philosophy involve?

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on September 26, 2012, 06:51:00 PM
maybe this rebuilding exercise also involves us heading down to the championship?
God you're such a short-termist Dude!  :)

Heading down to the championship would give us a fantastic opportunity to
blood our 8 yr. olds! (maintains starry eyed look at Life-sized BR portrait on
wall  ;D ).

Obviously these days we need 180-page treatises on the game. I note Roy
Keane's take on the secret to his career:

Brian Clough bought me over from Ireland, gave me my debut after only a few weeks at the club and looked after me well away from football. With top managers like Clough and Ferguson, the advice and the way they train is very simple.

People might think there's some magic science to it, but there isn't - they just keep it nice and simple.

Brian Clough's advice to me before most games was: 'you get it, you pass it to another player in a red shirt'. That's really all I've tried to do at Forest and United - pass and move - and I've made a career out of it.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 26, 2012, 07:54:11 PM
God you're such a short-termist Dude!  :)

Heading down to the championship would give us a fantastic opportunity to
blood our 8 yr. olds! (maintains starry eyed look at Life-sized BR portrait on
wall  ;D ).

Obviously these days we need 180-page treatises on the game. I note Roy
Keane's take on the secret to his career:

Brian Clough bought me over from Ireland, gave me my debut after only a few weeks at the club and looked after me well away from football. With top managers like Clough and Ferguson, the advice and the way they train is very simple.

People might think there's some magic science to it, but there isn't - they just keep it nice and simple.

Brian Clough's advice to me before most games was: 'you get it, you pass it to another player in a red shirt'. That's really all I've tried to do at Forest and United - pass and move - and I've made a career out of it.


exactly, Ed.  Most players are not rocket scientists (to put it mildly), thus there is a lot to be said for keeping it simple.

There is, as the old saying goes, nothing new under the sun.

Pass and move, is as old as the game of football.

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall of the Dalglish household.  I note from twitter, that Paul Dalglish (Kenny's son) has been pretty dismissive of Rodger's philosophy. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 29, 2012, 04:53:21 PM
".....but we still conceded two goals!!"  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 29, 2012, 06:45:36 PM
yes, two soft goals to concede, when 4 and 5 up, against a yellow and green relegation fodder attack.

but still, Suarez had his shooting boots on today.

let's hope he can stay fit and score a few of the many chances he gets.

if we can score more than we concede, we can be keeganesque in our endeavours.

sorta like a custard pie with a kevin keegan + david brent + alan partridge sorta mix.


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 29, 2012, 08:02:16 PM
Without wanting to sound hyper-critical we have got to sort out the defensive side, especially when going forward. Teams seem able to counter attack successfully (in goal terms). A good goal difference is worth an extra point (as Taggart's lot will testify), but it's good to see us actually converting the numerous chances we've always created.

I don't blame Reina for the first goal, he should be able to expect his defence to react quicker than they did. A good centre half, like a good striker is on his toes and follows in a shot.

Wisdom played very well again, as did Suso and Sterling. It's good to see Rodgers not taking the safe way out (sticking with 'names' and established players) and actually picking players who've earned a start through their endeavours in training and when they play well, they keep their place. It takes a degree of bravery to do that, when irrespective of performances, results aren't happening.

The owners need to understand we need investment in the next 'wave' of young players as well as one or two specific purchases for the first team. We won't get a 'name' in January but hopeful Rodgers has his eye on a 'clever' purchase up  front. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 29, 2012, 08:14:05 PM
yes, if we can get the first goal in games, it forces the other side to come out of their shell and attack us.......which obviously means we then have more space to work behind.

but even with going a goal up, we are still weak at the back.  Skytrail has too many lapses for my liking, notably near the end of games.   Maybe we need an electric collar on him, thus allowing us to shock him for the final ten minutes...to ensure he does not snooze.

on the offensive side of things, it's great to see Rafa's recruits doing so well. 

yes, we are gonna need a striker.  Suarez is not the deadly poacher that we need.  He is a world class chance creator....but not an out and out scorer (despite getting three today).


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 29, 2012, 09:20:59 PM
yes, if we can get the first goal in games, it forces the other side to come out of their shell and attack us.......which obviously means we then have more space to work behind.

but even with going a goal up, we are still weak at the back.  Skytrail has too many lapses for my liking, notably near the end of games.   Maybe we need an electric collar on him, thus allowing us to shock him for the final ten minutes...to ensure he does not snooze.

on the offensive side of things, it's great to see Rafa's recruits doing so well. 

yes, we are gonna need a striker.  Suarez is not the deadly poacher that we need.  He is a world class chance creator....but not an out and out scorer (despite getting three today).

Skrtel seems to have relapsed to pre Steve Clarke, but the whole defence (and to a certain degree the midfield) need to work harder and be more aware of what they are doing. There seems to be too much of a gap between midfield and defence for the opposition to break into. Whether it's a case of the defence dropping off and dropping too deep when we don't have the ball.
Maybe it's something Rodgers could look at with his system and tweak it for the time being at least otherwise we run the risk of losing all three points rather than being guaranteed at least point by keeping a clean sheet, at least until we can get another striker (hopefully a goalscorer) or we as a whole team can start regularly weighing in with goals.

Luis' goals record is better than it seems but he scores in bunches 27 goals in 60 games, and is the definition of a scorer of great goals, not a great goal scorer. If can be more focused also. Quite with the histrionics and moaning and just focus on his game. It's also not helping his cause to get penalties, one that's already hard enough since the 'Old Toilet Oracle' declared him to be a diver and most of the football world fell for it.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 29, 2012, 10:56:34 PM
Skytrail has too many lapses for my liking, notably near the end of games.   Maybe we need an electric collar on him, thus allowing us to shock him for the final ten minutes...to ensure he does not snooze.

on the offensive side of things, it's great to see Rafa's recruits doing so well. 

Dude, you may have just given Martin (not that one) an open goal he just can't miss,, or maybe he'll pass it to Edward to slam it home.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 29, 2012, 11:44:06 PM
but just imagine, if our lad had hung on to rafa's main men, kuyt, maxi, etc, how many we would have scored today.

doesn;t bare thinking about.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on September 30, 2012, 01:22:42 PM
LIVERPOOL FC will reward Suso with a new contract following the Spanish youngster’s breakthrough into the first team.

The talented teenager’s current deal expires next summer and talks over an extension are already underway with Rodgers determined to keep him at Anfield.

Suso was part of the youth set up at Cádiz CF from the age of 12. He first received notice for a man of the match performance in a pre-season friendly in 2009 at the age of 15.

Suso signed for Liverpool in the summer of 2010 from his hometown club Cadiz, rejecting Barcelona and Real Madrid in the process, saying "I was going to sign for Real Madrid but one day before it the phone rang and Rafael Benitez spoke to me. He convinced me that Liverpool was the club for me and after that I had to change my plans. I was going to come to Liverpool."]. He was described by his then Cadiz manager Quique Gonzalez as "a boy with great quality, a good shot – his vision is great and his passing is outstanding."
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 30, 2012, 05:53:20 PM
I was, again, very pleased and impressed by our performance. I doubt many teams will reproduce at Carrow Road our opening 30. It's clear Suarez is a different person using his energy to up his game rather than wawing his arms towards the refs. A brilliant display from him and long may it continue.

Also liked Suso and Sterling but was hugely impressed by young Wisdom. It takes quite a lot of brain to play wing back but he looks very mature for his age. I do think, however, he was at fault for their second rather than Skrtl.

If we can keep the momentum going against Stoke, over the interntional break and then Reading the derby will look very interesting. Again, for the first time in well over a decade I have the feeling we could go on a long winning streak.

Well done you redmen!!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on September 30, 2012, 06:14:25 PM
If we can keep the momentum going against Stoke,

Stoke present the style of football we haven't really yet faced this season and it will be a big test of the manager's way of playing, the physical size (or not) of the team and our new found goalscoring prowess (against lesser teams).

I'd rather not look beyond that hurdle in the league. And we do have Udinese at home before then, so we need to build a bit of momentum at home ready for Stoke.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 01, 2012, 08:29:17 AM
Stoke present the style of football we haven't really yet faced this season and it will be a big test of the manager's way of playing, the physical size (or not) of the team and our new found goalscoring prowess (against lesser teams).

I'd rather not look beyond that hurdle in the league. And we do have Udinese at home before then, so we need to build a bit of momentum at home ready for Stoke.

I agree very much with that. I'd have Stoke one of the hardest teams to beat today. Saw them against Chelsea at SB a couple of weeks back and Chelsea (as per fickin usual) won 1-0. It wasn't a fair result and Stoke really should've had at least one point, if not more in that game. They're so strong and hellbent on defending with 10 men behind the ball. They take no chances going forward to minimize exposure on the counterbreak.

As you say it'll be a stern test for Rodgers, his system and the lads. Udinese at home is actually quite an important game. A win would most likely see us through allowing Rodgers to field a b-side for the remaining games so I could understand if he's tempted to play a strong side which may drain us ahead of the weekend. Decisions, decisions...

Oh, and yes, it's true Rafa signed some of the young players. It is Rodgers, however, who's actually giving them a chance to shine.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 01, 2012, 03:46:44 PM
Oh, and yes, it's true Rafa signed some of the young players. It is Rodgers, however, who's actually giving them a chance to shine.

Hopefully it's a sign that Rodgers hasn't had the same expectations and targets placed on him by the owners that previous managers must have had. Normally managers can't afford to 'blood' youngsters as their job is under too much pressure so they have to 'play it safe'.

If you look at the teams in the PL, of the bigger teams there's only usually Arsenal and the Mancs that regularly bring in and bring through younger players, but then Taggart's and Wenger's positions are the most secure.

It would seem the owners have now decided to take a longer term approach and re-build thoroughly rather than it looks like Dalglish 'had' to do and bring in 'ready made players for instant results', or not as it proved to be. We can't (and I wouldn't want us to) go the route of City and Chelsea so 'developing' a squad and team is the only other option.
Taggart's been good at that by always having one eye on his 'next team' when buying and bringing in players that 'can' contribute something now but will become a mainstay in the next team built.

For the first time since Moores ejected, does a manager at our club have some sort of stability and is obviously being given time and latitude to build, without having to meet certain targets in terms of league positions and trophies, and I imagine his 'achievements' will be measured over at least the next two seasons in a different way to which the previous 3 managers had their achievements gauged.     
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 01, 2012, 07:02:59 PM
it's true Rafa signed some of the young players. It is Rodgers, however, who's actually giving them a chance to shine.

35 more points to go, and we should be safe.

hopefully we can keep Suarez fit and taking some of his chances.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 01, 2012, 09:33:41 PM
35 more points to go, and we should be safe.

hopefully we can keep Suarez fit and taking some of his chances.

Hehe. You conviniently forgot we scored 12 goals in our last 3 games. I'm not suggesting for one second our problems in front of goal is behind us but unlike you I'm willing to give cred were it's due and that includes Rafa.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 01, 2012, 09:44:03 PM
Hehe. You conviniently forgot we scored 12 goals in our last 3 games. I'm not suggesting for one second our problems in front of goal is behind us but unlike you I'm willing to give cred were it's due and that includes Rafa.

on the contrary, I want every Liverpool boss to succeed (thus you will see me calling one or two of the last performances as "outstanding"). 

you on the otherhand Martin, have no respect at all, for what Rafa Benitez did for Liverpool FC. 

You mock, smear and ridicule his record. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 01, 2012, 09:46:44 PM
Hehe. You conviniently forgot we scored 12 goals in our last 3 games.

Gaining us a net return of how many PL points? Stats and figures are something politicans hide behind. Martin, you're better than that.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 01, 2012, 10:05:04 PM
Gaining us a net return of how many PL points?
Early days. Stoke's a good test next weekend.

I thought Norwich had enough chances of their own and the two goals
we conceded were disappointing. We beat 'em by 3 last season with a clean
sheet so.

There have been some encouraging signs with Sahin though, but the other kids
will make errors (& Skrtel & Reina it seems), so'll be waiting 'til the Everton game
to see how the progress is going.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 01, 2012, 10:32:07 PM
Early days. Stoke's a good test next weekend.

Agreed. Having got our first PL win of the season and hopefully we'll keep our Europa League run going, Stoke will be a huge test of where we really are. We need to get our first PL home win and  Stoke are a tough proposition if they're on top of their game. We've got to learn to get past teams who come for a draw but we should consider not stopping Reina's natural instinct to deliver the ball quickly. Against teams that tend to 'park the bus' we need to take the opportunity to counter attack quickly from the few forays forward teams like that have, and try and catch them before they've set themselves defensively again.
With his pace and ability on the ball, Assaidi would seem a perfect outlet for Reina to aim for.

The thing that Rodgers will learn is that teams tend to give more space to the likes of Swansea and are prepared to take their chances with a more attacking outlook. Against the 'bigger' teams they play more defensively and look to contain, hoping to grind out a point. He's going to need to be a bit more 'flexible' in his approach than he could probably have been able to get away with at Swansea.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 02, 2012, 09:43:04 AM
on the contrary, I want every Liverpool boss to succeed (thus you will see me calling one or two of the last performances as "outstanding"). 

you on the otherhand Martin, have no respect at all, for what Rafa Benitez did for Liverpool FC. 

You mock, smear and ridicule his record.

No, I don't, just the parts that deserves it. You know pretty damn well I've said time and again his first 2- 2.5 seasons he really had the club going forward but then, at least on the surface of it, it seems as the CL win got to his and his judgement got clouded. His stubborness set in despite costing us valuable points time and again, he chose, for no apparent reason, to ignite conflicts internally and externally.  Now, all this said to those, like you, who uncritically refused to realise that apart for one season we were slowly but steadily going backwards during Rafa. The problem people like you have is that you do not understand the qualitative difference between cup-success and PL-dito. He got 6 full seasons in the PL and when he had the chance to win it he decided, when he wasn't tinkering beyond belief resulting in draws at home to relegation candidates, to take on SAF in a slanging match which upset the squad and eventually cost us the very very slim hope we had to win it for the first time in nearly 2 decades. He gave us the CL and the Cup which was great, it seems as his restructruing of the Academy starts to pay off but ultimately he left a squad in decline, totally devoid of confidence and hapiness playing boring, predictable and uninspiring footy (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know about those 10 games in the spring of 2009 when everything was already out of our grasp. But what about the Fulham, West Ham, Hull draws in November/December when we could've got a grip of the title? Oh, that's right, he secured a point playing a well balanced side.).

He was a great manager, just not that great.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 02, 2012, 09:48:47 AM
Gaining us a net return of how many PL points? Stats and figures are something politicans hide behind. Martin, you're better than that.

I don't think that's fair at all to be perfectly honest, Tes mate. First of all I clearly state in my post it's all about cred's where it's due an'all. Secondly, I had to listen to people on here moaning for weeks on end about our lack of goals. I merely pointed out that we scored 12 in our last 3. It may not represent a paradigm shift in how results will present itselves from here on come May 2013, but at least one could argue there's a slim possibility that when on form we have a playing system that may help us score goals. The problem is, we won't be in that form for the rest of the season, we'll need to "rest" in quite a few games and that's where you need a goalscorer that help you scrape out wins. Just trying to stay positive as I think there's more positives than negatives to take from this season and that's a feeling much welcomed, at least on my part.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 02, 2012, 11:28:12 AM
Sorry, Martin, what I was meaning is there is a huge difference between the amount of goals scored, and what it actually achieved in reality. The stat looks good but it doesn't tell the true story and is unbalanced.

'12 goals in the last three games' sounds like a successful team. The reality is somewhat different in terms of PL points.

I just don't like stats being used to make a point which either only addressess part of the issue or is used to mask reallity.

It's frustrating that despite scoring 11 goals in our last three games (Young Boys 5, the Mancs 1, Norwich 5) it's still only brought us 3 points in the PL. It's terrific to see us scoring and it's enjoyable as a fan, but what I can't do (as a person) is let it hide the fact that we are still conceding too many goals. 7 goals in those same three games, to go along with WBA 3, Man City 2, Arsenal 2.

As we've yet to keep a clean sheet in the PL, and only one clean sheet in all competitions, we still (and goals scored isn't changing that) are conceding an alarming amount of goals per game, whilst we may have eased our scoring problems. Stoke will be a big test of any assertion that we have sorted the problem.

I don't wish to sound negative, however, I can't ignore the reality and as fans we need to balance things. We can't celebrate the goals scored whilst ignoring the goals conceded, likewise we can't point out the goals conceded without praising the goals scored.

It's why I say the Stoke game is a huge test. Have we really sorted our struggle to score goals? Stoke, who set up defensively at Anfield will test us. Can we still score when a team sets up so defensively?
Also, can we stop them scoring, especially from the set plays they invest a lot of time in, and from where a good percentage of their chances come from.

I enjoyed the Young Boys game and the Norwich game, the play, the goals etc, but they are in the past, and although it can be a cliche, it really is true that the next game is the only one that really counts.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 02, 2012, 12:42:55 PM
Sorry, Martin, what I was meaning is there is a huge difference between the amount of goals scored, and what it actually achieved in reality. The stat looks good but it doesn't tell the true story and is unbalanced.

'12 goals in the last three games' sounds like a successful team. The reality is somewhat different in terms of PL points.

I just don't like stats being used to make a point which either only addressess part of the issue or is used to mask reallity.

It's frustrating that despite scoring 11 goals in our last three games (Young Boys 5, the Mancs 1, Norwich 5) it's still only brought us 3 points in the PL.

I was counting the Baggies game hence 12, so my bad. Lets say 13 in the last 4 then.  ;) Other than that I couldn't agree with you more about how frustrating it is when people slap you in the face with some unreflected and (most often) taken-out-of-context-stats. That wasn't my intention, however. I was merely pointing to the fact that despite the poor start to our season (pointswise) there could be some signs things might change sooner rather than later. For all I know we could be back to our huff'n puffin best against Stoke but we could also go on and put 2 past them with a clean sheet. We don't know yet so no major conclusions can be drawn at this stage in any direction and that's the only point I'm trying to put forth here. That's why I say it won't be until after the derby we'll have a somewhat clearer picture about how we'll fare this season.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 02, 2012, 01:43:23 PM
the fact that despite the poor start to our season (pointswise) there could be some signs things might change sooner rather than later.
I don't think the defence is right (though Johnson is giving it loads
going forward on the left) and Pepe has been erratic. The two kids
Raheem & Suso, for all their skills (technicians in BR speak) are
bit lightweight and suspect defensively imo.

I think we need to seriously cop on defensively and stop getting intoxicated
by the promise of youth and flashy skills. There has to be balance and some
clean sheets would be a start!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 02, 2012, 02:32:49 PM
There has to be balance and some clean sheets would be a start!

exactly Ed, balance is the key element in football.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 02, 2012, 07:54:49 PM
I was counting the Baggies game hence 12, so my bad. Lets say 13 in the last 4 then.  ;) Other than that I couldn't agree with you more about how frustrating it is when people slap you in the face with some unreflected and (most often) taken-out-of-context-stats. That wasn't my intention, however. I was merely pointing to the fact that despite the poor start to our season (pointswise) there could be some signs things might change sooner rather than later. For all I know we could be back to our huff'n puffin best against Stoke but we could also go on and put 2 past them with a clean sheet. We don't know yet so no major conclusions can be drawn at this stage in any direction and that's the only point I'm trying to put forth here. That's why I say it won't be until after the derby we'll have a somewhat clearer picture about how we'll fare this season.

I think it's far too early to be able to tell if it's a flaw in the system. Until we know that the players have fully grasped the system, and that they and the system have been tuned as far as it can be, will we be able to judge. Maybe the end of next season before we can safely say all the above has and can have been achieved.

However, we need to sort out the defensive side of the team. That has to be priority above all else. Even if it means taking a step or three back and moving slightly away from the system.
It should always be remembered that a system is a starting point, but it's the players a manager has at his disposal is what decides specifics.

Some of the play has been great. The goals scored, not just nice to see the numbers of, but some of the goals have been really special, both individual and team efforts.
None of the improvements can though mask the defensive frailties. It's easy to focus on all the positives and overlook the negative. I hope the manager has been working on the defensive side of the team play this week, whether it's the players, the system or a combination of both. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 05, 2012, 05:35:35 PM
If we're to get the best from and utilise Borini to the max, then maybe it's an idea for Rodgers to have a DVD of his movement and space creation made so his team mates can learn quicker how best to utilise and benefit from it, otherwise he'll become another Dirk, who's movement was never utilised properly and as such he was never properly appreciated.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 05, 2012, 06:28:56 PM
Regarding Henderson I just hope he sticks around long enough to fulfil his potential rather than flogged in January to raise money. We'll lose Sahin in the summer and Gerrard will be a year older so you don't want to let Henderson go as well. Leaving only Lucas and Allen as top class central midfielders.

I think its clear that in the system we play we need 2 "workhorse" type players - Lucas/Allen/Henderson.. You then compliment 2 of these with a luxury player ala Gerrard/Shelvey/Sahin.

Against Udinese once we lost the graft and industry of Henderson we fell to pieces in the center, that was a mistake on Rodgers part, but then again he should of been able to trust Gerrard to slot in like Jordan had, which he didn't causing the unbalance in the middle of the park.

Henderson is slowly growing, his decision making was better and he kept the ball very well. I think he could easily be trained to play the pivot role and he would be really effective there imo.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 05, 2012, 07:27:46 PM
Regarding Henderson I just hope he sticks around long enough to fulfil his potential rather than flogged in January to raise money.

Against Udinese once we lost the graft and industry of Henderson we fell to pieces in the center, that was a mistake on Rodgers part, but then again he should of been able to trust Gerrard to slot in like Jordan had, which he didn't causing the unbalance in the middle of the park.

Henderson is slowly growing, his decision making was better and he kept the ball very well. I think he could easily be trained to play the pivot role and he would be really effective there imo.
Interesting.

I agree that, in general he maintained possession well and was fairly busy tracking.
Of course people don't like this dirty work because it's not flashy. I presume that was
his role with Shelvey given license to attack and get in the box (as for the goal).

What we want to see with Henderson is for him to develop into a player that shows for it
more (even with the opposition tight on him), out-muscle and take the ball off midfielders
and break with it. He tends to be less confident dribbling forward when he needs to pick a
pass on the fly. The question/hope is with experience he'll become more confident and be
more influential in terms of bossing the game.

I agree too that the change at 1-1 was premature, ill-considered and smacked of desperation.
I mean they scored early in the second half by taking apart our defensive structure. Bringing
on two attackers at the expense of a defensive midfielder was never going to solve that,
particularly when Johnson was being caught out high up the pitch and Udinese were simply
pinging balls down the wing to DiNatale. The other question is why we seemed to completely
abandon the passing game from the first half???

Protecting the draw was the priority and building on that for a win the next step. We appeared
to make the change as if we were a goal down.

Mistakes were made and losing at home in Europe smacks of tactical naivety on the part of
the gaffer, imo.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 06, 2012, 01:01:43 AM
Regarding Henderson I just hope he sticks around long enough to fulfil his potential rather than flogged in January to raise money. We'll lose Sahin in the summer and Gerrard will be a year older so you don't want to let Henderson go as well. Leaving only Lucas and Allen as top class central midfielders.

Good point, Edward, and if cash is to be more limited, then it's one that becomes much more pertinent.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 06, 2012, 01:15:41 AM
Interesting.

I agree that, in general he maintained possession well and was fairly busy tracking.
Of course people don't like this dirty work because it's not flashy. I presume that was
his role with Shelvey given license to attack and get in the box (as for the goal).

What we want to see with Henderson is for him to develop into a player that shows for it
more (even with the opposition tight on him), out-muscle and take the ball off midfielders
and break with it. He tends to be less confident dribbling forward when he needs to pick a
pass on the fly. The question/hope is with experience he'll become more confident and be
more influential in terms of bossing the game.

I agree too that the change at 1-1 was premature, ill-considered and smacked of desperation.
I mean they scored early in the second half by taking apart our defensive structure. Bringing
on two attackers at the expense of a defensive midfielder was never going to solve that,
particularly when Johnson was being caught out high up the pitch and Udinese were simply
pinging balls down the wing to DiNatale. The other question is why we seemed to completely
abandon the passing game from the first half???

Protecting the draw was the priority and building on that for a win the next step. We appeared
to make the change as if we were a goal down.

Mistakes were made and losing at home in Europe smacks of tactical naivety on the part of
the gaffer, imo.

I also thought the substitutions were too premature. As we conceded straight after half time, we therefore needed to get a foothold back in the game but also keep Udinese out. They are the team to beat in the group and having started with 3 points against Young Boys, a point against them was not the end of the world, especially if it could be repeated on the return game in Italy. Then we look to win the group by getting more points against Anzhi and Young Boys than Udinese do, and in that mini tournament we've got 3/3.
Also a 1-1 would be an improvement on the goals conceded front, and extend the unbeaten run in this competition and make it three matches in all competitions.
I'm not sure Rodgers quite saw a bigger picture last night.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 06, 2012, 01:53:21 AM
I'm not sure Rodgers quite saw a bigger picture last night.
I'm gutted that Udinese came more focussed on getting a result.

Their gaffer has been around (57, I think) and has experience:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Guidolin

I was impressed with what he said before the game:

http://www.football-italia.net/25750/guidolin-dreams-anfield-upset

“The atmosphere will certainly be impressive and the lads might not be accustomed to that kind of pressure-cooker atmosphere,” noted the Coach.

“Still, I think our focus ought to be on Liverpool, who are a great team. After all, atmosphere is all well and good, but the games are played on the pitch.

“Liverpool haven’t had the best start to the season, but that is because they are settling in to a new way of playing with a new Coach who did very well at Swansea last year.

“They paid a price for those big changes, but I have to focus on my own squad and what my players can do.”

Guidolin confirmed he will rotate the squad, so it will by no means be the first choice Udinese XI at Anfield.

“Unfortunately, the fixture list forces that decision upon me. We are playing seven games in 21 days. I’ll make a few adjustments, but not too many, because we want to do well.

“Getting a result here would certainly be extraordinary and important for our confidence.”


There's no bullsh*t there, it's very clear what they're about. I'd question (and I did before
the game) whether our game plan went beyond throwing Gerrard & Suarez on at the first sign
of trouble
. The changes certainly didn't fit with any notion of counter-acting what was happening
on the pitch. Anyway, I think the Italians gave us a lesson in getting results in Europe and lets hope
the gaffer has the humility to see that we were out-classed in that respect i.e. forget the b*llshit,
European football is about tactics and results.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 06, 2012, 07:37:08 PM
Team tomorrow against Stoke is unchanged from the Norwich starting XI. So I've been told.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 06, 2012, 08:36:06 PM
Interesting. Wisdom giving us height in the back four, otherwise we're imposing our game on them. Brave.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 06, 2012, 09:13:06 PM
Interesting. Wisdom giving us height in the back four, otherwise we're imposing our game on them. Brave.
                              Reina
Wisdom     Skrtel          Agger       Johnson

                               Allen
                Gerrard           Sahin

              Sterling               Suso
                             Suarez

Lot of technicians in there, not much strength or height from
midfield onwards. Tbh, we're at home, so I'm not that bothered.
I'd say if we concentrate on keeping the sheet clean (stop switching
off), try get the big lads up for set-pieces, then there's an embarassment
of attacking riches there to cause Stoke problems with the R.A.F.
(Relentless Attacking Football  :)) )

Thought Bruce was giving it loads about our defense on TalkRadio

http://www.talksport.co.uk/sports-news/football/premier-league/121005/exclusive-grobbelaar-questions-rodgers-defensive-tactics-182437



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 07, 2012, 03:26:48 AM
Interesting. Wisdom giving us height in the back four, otherwise we're imposing our game on them. Brave.
Yeah been thinking about that and what Bruce said about Udinese's second goal.

I doubt Stoke are under any illusions that they're not going to have to endure an
awful amount of attacking trickery all afternoon, so guaranteed they'll have been
perfecting their set pieces and crossing. Need two towers at the back and a less
introverted Reina.

I'm actually looking forward to this one 'cos they've only been beat by Chelsea away
this season 1-0 (drew away with Reading 1-1 and Wigan 2-2) and I think they'll settle
for another draw with us. Realistically, we need a win to arrest our slow start.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 07, 2012, 06:36:31 PM
Very disappointing result and to quite some extent performance. The kids are alright an'all but the last 20 were only hade Gerrard or Såren to put our hopes to. Were're quite some distance from vinning games like these with room to spare. I dont think Gerrard is helping at all for long periods of the game. Also Suarez was back to his own worst. That pathetic dive will cost us another 2 stonewall penos.

We look a bit too lightweight but that was somewhat expected, less expected was the attitude the last 20 where it was apparent the players didnt beleive in a victory themselves.

I dont think Brendan couldve done it any better bar Atkins off Sterling instead of Suso who was arguably your best planera.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 07, 2012, 08:30:42 PM
There's a reason experience gets paid more. We miss our experience and their knowhow of 'how to win'.

To a degree in this system Gerrard is bearing out what has been stated many times on here about his lack of discipline. It's not a 'pop' but you have to know when to hold and when to push.

Rodgers has his own theories on football, but they are just that, 'theories', it's never been put into practice at the highest level.
He would do well to study us in Dalglish's caretaker stint and the last third of 2008/09 when we were chasing the Mancs. See what it was that enabled us to win games - scoring more than we were conceding, and conceding few, whilst playing 'good' football, the type you want to pay to see.

I'm not saying his methods are wrong as it's far, far, far too early for anything so final, but there is always something that can be added to, tweaked and things that can be left out etc. He needs to be open minded and flexible in his thinking and if things aren't working, then not to get entrenched in his thinking. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on October 07, 2012, 09:32:00 PM
There's a reason experience gets paid more. We miss our experience and their knowhow of 'how to win'.

To a degree in this system Gerrard is bearing out what has been stated many times on here about his lack of discipline. It's not a 'pop' but you have to know when to hold and when to push.


But it should be a pop...3 of the most experienced players in premier league history were let go this summer...and by the age of 32 Gerrard should have learnt that by now...it's not rocket science...and we STILL do not play to our strengths...

The gospel of the anfield road forum...(to be added on to by other wise sages)

The team comes before the individual...
Pass and move..
keep your best players...
don't buy sh*te...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 07, 2012, 11:27:43 PM
But it should be a pop...3 of the most experienced players in premier league history were let go this summer...and by the age of 32 Gerrard should have learnt that by now...it's not rocket science...and we STILL do not play to our strengths...

The gospel of the anfield road forum...(to be added on to by other wise sages)

The team comes before the individual...
Pass and move..
keep your best players...
don't buy sh*te...

Wise words. Indeed. Barticus.

We'll all be going down with Repetitive Words Syndrom.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 08, 2012, 04:35:57 PM
But it should be a pop...3 of the most experienced players in premier league history were let go this summer...
Agree. We could well have used options like Kuyt, Maxi & Bellers yesterday.
I got the sense that the game could have gone on 'til midnight and we wouldn't
have scored. There's a huge difference between a player like Sterling or Suso
trying to break his duck and those players who have scored at every level in the game.
My feeling's the Stoke back line was too well drilled to be knocked out of their stride
by the youngsters.

The introduction of Cole (if nothing else 'cos he doesn't offer much) demonstrated the
difference in terms of the time on the ball (and the extra decision-making that affords) of
an older player.

There's also imo an argument that Carroll would have offered a different approach when plan A
hit a brick wall. Just sayin' is all because if you want to blood youngsters and/or ease Borini in, it
makes sense to do it when the squad aint threadbare.

The kids are fine in and out given 20 minutes here and there but imo it's worrying when they
are virtually automatic starters?? I also don't see the motivation for alienating Downing
(we've already seen how the precedent with Carroll/Morgan back-fired).

I think the lads did ok but there's just not enough maturity/intelligence in the team to grind
out the results we need to move up the table. I think the manager will have to face up to the fact
sooner rather than later that the results have not been good enough for LFC and he should stop
hiding behind feel-good stories about how well the kids are doing.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 08, 2012, 06:06:21 PM
How many F'N times.

Maxi WANTED, YES WANTED TO GO. We did not want him to leave. MAXI WANTED TO GO.

We wanted to keep Bellamy. BELLAMY WANTED TO GO. YES WANTED TO GO.

It is only Kuyt that we were more than willing to let go of.

You can blame the management team for most things but for Maxi and Bellamy leaving you cannot.

P.s. I can hear the rebuttal being that they have contracts and we should have held here until the contracts run out. I like to think that we are a better club than that when dealing with players that have given us loyalty and every ounce of blood, sweat and tears on the pitch. Maxi wanted to end his career at Newell's Old Boys. We granted him that wish because of the respect we have for Maxi. Same applies to Bellamy who wanted to go to Cardiff to be nearer his family.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 08, 2012, 06:49:45 PM
How many F'N times.

Maxi WANTED, YES WANTED TO GO. We did not want him to leave. MAXI WANTED TO GO.
Maxi wanted to end his career at Newell's Old Boys. We granted him that wish because of the respect we have for Maxi.
I'm confused, do you mean we let Maxi go or he let us go or Newell's Old Boys let Kenny go?  :)

Ok, you've made your point, u could actually have done it with the rattler still in the pram   :P

Which brings me back to the point. Is it not the manager's job to get results?
Trust me, Villas Boas, Di Matteo, Clarke, Moyes all have in trays full of matters
requiring decisions to be taken on.

My point is that I'd rather hear the manager address this issue in his post match press interview
than hiding behind feel-good stories about the kids and how everyone in the squad is a hard worker,
good guy and loves his mother.

We was beat by Udinese on Thursday and aint won at home yet this season and he was (if you listen to
it) fudging and alluding to the previous regime and last day of the transfer window. He bought Borini to
score goals, loaned Carroll, dropped Downing from the squad and started with a 17 & 18 year old. I'd
have preferred a more robust assessment of how he feels things are going.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 08, 2012, 07:34:33 PM
How many F'N times.

Maxi WANTED, YES WANTED TO GO. We did not want him to leave. MAXI WANTED TO GO.

We wanted to keep Bellamy. BELLAMY WANTED TO GO. YES WANTED TO GO.

It is only Kuyt that we were more than willing to let go of.

You can blame the management team for most things but for Maxi and Bellamy leaving you cannot.

P.s. I can hear the rebuttal being that they have contracts and we should have held here until the contracts run out. I like to think that we are a better club than that when dealing with players that have given us loyalty and every ounce of blood, sweat and tears on the pitch. Maxi wanted to end his career at Newell's Old Boys. We granted him that wish because of the respect we have for Maxi. Same applies to Bellamy who wanted to go to Cardiff to be nearer his family.

And Kuyt???? Nevermind, only joking. The wider point that Barticus was making (at least that's my reading) and what I was meaning and what has been covered by Dude and Juan (I think) is that we have lost 'experience', the knowhow needed to win a tight match (or at least increase our chances), the kind that the likes of Kuyt demonstrated times many.

That is down to the club. Who exactly, I wouldn't know for certain so I won't place blame. Maybe you can enlighten us all.
You need experience as well as youth. You have to have a blend. But no. Re-$ale value. That appears to be the only criteria. Without, we don't have that 'edge' that a group of young players lack.
Arsenal. How many trophies have any of their crops of 'babes' in any combination, no matter the 'batch' they emerged from, won?
A 29 year old for example, may 'only' give us 3 years and then have to be 'released for nowt' but it's what he gives directly on the pitch (the visible contribution) and to younger players in terms of advice and an example to watch and learn from. How many times do you hear a current 'senior' player praise a former senior player for their help and advice both before breaking into the team and whilst 'finding their way' as a first teamer.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 08, 2012, 09:34:32 PM
But it should be a pop...3 of the most experienced players in premier league history were let go this summer.

The gospel of the anfield road forum...(to be added on to by other wise sages)

The team comes before the individual...
Pass and move..
keep your best players...
don't buy sh*te...

A 29 year old for example, may 'only' give us 3 years and then have to be 'released for nowt' but it's what he gives directly on the pitch (the visible contribution) and to younger players in terms of advice and an example to watch and learn from. How many times do you hear a current 'senior' player praise a former senior player for their help and advice both before breaking into the team and whilst 'finding their way' as a first teamer.

exactly, Barticus and Tes.

this is not rocket science.

Top technical players like Mereless and Maxi, do not grow on trees.  Top pros, like Kuyt, are invaluable re experience.....both in breaking down opposing defences, but also in passing on knowledge to youngsters.

To let those senior players leave, and never replace them, is tantamount to madness.  That is why I have labelled this past summer as the club being downsized.

It would be game-changing, to have been able to have brought on the likes of Kuyt, Bellamy and Maxi, against Stoke.

But, and I have said it often enough, we have inadequate people all across the club, as owners, as chief executive, as manager, and within the playing staff.

The yanks have absolutely no idea how to run a top football club.  And Rodgers is not far behind them.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 09, 2012, 09:46:15 AM
only 32 per cent of shots by Liverpool players have been on target this season.

That is the lowest percentage in the premiership......of all 20 teams, that is the lowest.

sub-titles for the ard of understanding - we couldn't hit an elephant's ar.se with a banjo.

this is why I have been crying out for the coaches at Anfield, to demand that Suarez stop shooting, and wasting all  our opportunities.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 13, 2012, 05:20:58 PM
Here's our fixture list 'til the end of the year. I think we need
to stop talking about:

1.) Young players
2.) How great the players are
3.) The System
4.) Refereeing decisions
5.) 4th
6.) The January transfer window.

and focus on keeping clean sheets (given our current goal scoring options!)
and putting together results in football matches. Results & clean sheets should
be the mantra coming from the gaffer.

October 2012     
Liverpool V Reading  20 Oct
      
Liverpool V Anzhi Makhachkala 25 Oct
     
Everton V Liverpool  28 Oct
     
League Cup - Fourth Round 
Liverpool V Swansea  31 Oct
     
November 2012   
Liverpool V Newcastle  4 Nov
     
Anzhi Makhachkala V Liverpool 8 Nov
     
Chelsea V Liverpool  11 Nov
     
Liverpool V Wigan  17 Nov
     
Liverpool V Young Boys 22 Nov
     
Swansea V Liverpool  25 Nov
     
Tottenham V Liverpool  28 Nov
     
December 2012   
Liverpool V Southampton  1 Dec
     
Udinese V Liverpool Thu 6 Dec
     
West Ham V Liverpool 9 Dec
     
Liverpool V Aston Villa 15 Dec
     
Liverpool V Fulham  22 Dec
     
Stoke V Liverpool  26 Dec
     
QPR V Liverpool  30 Dec
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 13, 2012, 07:32:49 PM
for me, 40 points cannot come soon enough.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 17, 2012, 05:20:27 PM
for me, 40 points cannot come soon enough.

Hold that thought, apparently Reina was injured (hamstring) during half-time for Spain.  ???

http://uk.soccerway.com/news/2012/October/17/reina-to-undergo-tests-on-injury/ (http://uk.soccerway.com/news/2012/October/17/reina-to-undergo-tests-on-injury/)

Can't find too much more so hopefully it's nothing serious.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 19, 2012, 12:09:12 AM
I presume everyone thinks Reading is an easy 3 points (it
sort of has to be if we have any ambition this season!) but
i think the game presents its own set of challenges with
the England lads Johnson & Stevie (I presume Shelvey is
still banned?) delayed in Poland and Luis & Coates halfway
round the world playing at altitude.

Given that we have Hiddink's team coming up in the Europa
league and then Everton, I think we need to be careful that
we dispatch Reading i.e. get a result 1- 0, without sacrificing
valuable resources. So despite the lowliness of the opposition
I'd argue that skilled management is called for.

I think it's the perfect game for Downing to start and wouldn't
mind also seeing Assaidi and Henderson.

                              Henderson  Allen
                                          Sahin
                     Downing                  Assaidi
                                             ?                                     

Wouldn't be too happy to see either Stevie or Luis start.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 19, 2012, 03:18:50 AM
I imagine Rodgers will start with his strongest team.

This is the type of game (Reading at Anfield) that he cannot afford to lose.

Rodgers has yet to win a premiership game at Anfield.  Two draws and two losses to date, make for hardly inspiring home form.

But if Liverpool are poor at home, Reading are cr.ap away from home.   

If we score early, we could win by a couple of goals.

But it is more likely to be a 1-1 draw, or else a scrambled one goal reds victory (2-1 or 3-2).

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 19, 2012, 02:59:37 PM
I imagine Rodgers will start with his strongest team.

This is the type of game (Reading at Anfield) that he cannot afford to lose.
Seems a waste of resources to me. I think he has to be careful how
he uses our best players and our young players. He was too gung ho
with Andy and it's poor management, given our threadbare squad, if
there isn't a role for Downing in games such as this.

Gone are the days when you get anything close to 38 performances from
Stevie in the league, seems mad to have to waste one on a winnable fixture
at home. I'm also worried about us running Suarez into the ground and would
prefer if we limited the appearances of Suso and Sterling (or at least had the option
of playing them instead of relying on them as starters!).

It's most likely that Stevie and Luis will be sluggish in the opening 45 minutes
anyway following their midweek adventures and imo more susceptible to injury.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 20, 2012, 06:01:53 AM
Seems a waste of resources to me. I think he has to be careful how
he uses our best players

we've won a mere 2 games at Anfield in 2012, Ed.

And none under Rodgers.

Given how rubbish we are (we concede soft goals, and have trouble scoring ourselves), we are in no position to treat any team lightly.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on October 20, 2012, 11:30:59 AM
we've won a mere 2 games at Anfield in 2012, Ed.


A damning stat and a very scary one...we have to do our utmost to win any game at the moment. Any win gains confidence and if we fail to win this one then we'd better start waking up to the possibility of a relegation struggle.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 20, 2012, 03:54:59 PM
we've won a mere 2 games at Anfield in 2012, Ed.

And none under Rodgers.

Given how rubbish we are (we concede soft goals, and have trouble scoring ourselves), we are in no position to treat any team lightly.

You can F**k off for all I care mate. For the first time in 2 decades it's actually fun to watch us play footy. So fed up with your uncalled for negativity. You ain't gonna get your Rafa back regardless and thank fork for that. Who is it you're supporting now again? Rafa or LFC? I honestly couldn't tell.

Brilliant first half of the lads. It's obvious we're moving in the right direction.
 
As I said before, this is going to be the most exciting season in a very very long time (The Dude excempted of course as he'd hate to see us do well unless Rafa's in charge.)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 20, 2012, 05:28:42 PM
Poor 2nd half but good to win as it seems to be all that matters in this place at least. Think Rodgers got it wrong taking off Sahin whilst keeping the increasingly wasteful Gerrard. Shelvey a disappointment as were Susor in the second half. Suarez can't score to save his life and I think we better get used to the idea he'll never be a goalscorer but will contribute in other ways (setting up Sterling was El Diego-like).

I know the Dude, Ed and the rest of the whining lot will be disappointed to see us win but at least our stats at home are better.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 20, 2012, 05:36:20 PM
Two clean sheets in a row - it's an improvement. If we can keep the defence tightened, then we need to get someone who can put it in the net, from somewhere in the January window.

It will be a struggle for any type of European football through the league (again) so it's going to have to be through the cups.

Great finish from Raheem. Clean sheet and a good game from Jones.

The next two games will be huge tests but will also be a good indicator of where we are at the moment.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 20, 2012, 05:50:28 PM
I know the Dude, Ed and the rest of the whining lot will be disappointed to see us win.
I said a 1-0 was all that was required. Where I'd be disappointed is with the
personnel required to achieve that. I aint seen the game so I can't comment
any further really.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 20, 2012, 05:53:59 PM
I know the Dude, Ed and the rest of the whining lot will be disappointed to see us win but at least our stats at home are better.

Martin, you're wrong there. Most people on here are realists and it's beyond the control of anybody what reality looks like. A couple of good results don't make a season, any more than 3 defeats on the trot don't guarentee relegation. That stat is depressing but because we don't like it doesn't make it better. It's depressing irrespective of who was in charge.

As for Dude, he'd rather be able to forget Rafa because 'the current manager' (whoever he is at any moment in time) has made him do so due to the way the team are playing, the way the club is set up and how the manager conducts himself. Nobody wants to keep looking back for consolation because the present doesn't make good viewing. I'm not saying the present doesn't make good viewing, just trying to explain a situation to you.

We're going to suffer some high 'highs' and some low 'lows' this season, it's best not to get carried away either way with any of them.

It's a much used phrase but football is a game of results and irrespective of how we play (good or bad) we only get points for the result and the points really are all that count (factually). It's a charged that's been levelled at Wenger many times since a trophy was last won.

We got our first clean sheet last match and our first home win today. The graph is edging upwards but again, there's nothing served by making too much of it either way.

As I've said before, unless we fight relegation this season, we can't afford further instability by sacking another manager, so we need to make a firm judgement at the end of next season, but within that we will see ups and downs and there's nothing wrong with discussing the reasons behind either. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 20, 2012, 06:42:37 PM
I said a 1-0 was all that was required. Where I'd be disappointed is with the
personnel required to achieve that. I aint seen the game so I can't comment
any further really.
Neither have I Ed but according to Sky Sports lads it was a little nervy in the last 15 minutes. Given the lack of home wins this year that was probably a given.

But we won and kept a second consecutive clean sheet so that's progress. There's two ways of looking at a nervy 1-0 win. We could either be rank with few actual chances created or more chances created but rank at our finishing. It seems today was the latter which I think is better than the former.

And with so many players away on international duty it was always going to ask a lot for good performances. Look at Utd conceding 2 and Shrek scoring an OG where we kept a clean sheet. Utd have only conceded one less goal than us but obviously have scored more. And currently Arsenal are losing at Norwich were we scored 5.

Once we start to score more (as I believe we will) it doesn't take long to climb the table. There's 4 teams on 14 points so we could make significant progress if we win our next 2 games which admittedly won't be easy - Everton (A) and Newcastle (H).
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 20, 2012, 07:17:38 PM
But we won and kept a second consecutive clean sheet so that's progress.
Yes, can't argue with that.

I suppose my feeling was that this was our easiest fixture in the league 'til Villa on
December 15th and I would have preferred to have a look at Assaidi, Downing and
Henderson.

A result was paramount but at some point the personnel will have to be jiggled about
and let's just hope they're ready to make an impact when called on because as Tes
mentioned a decision will have to be taken at some point about our route to European
football next season. Which is an interesting question in itself, is that the priority this
season to retain our presence in Europe next season!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 20, 2012, 07:19:35 PM
You can F**k off for all I care
 
As I said before, this is going to be the most exciting season in a very very long time.

(http://mcclane.zonalibre.org/00intro.1.jpg)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 20, 2012, 07:46:51 PM
Looking again at the league, those with the money are up there as expected. We no longer fall into that catagory. Also, there are teams that can display stability and continuity, either of management or playing staff or both. Again, to a degree that makes the difference, we're not in that group either.

We shouldn't be on our third manager in three seasons, but we are, thanks to past and present administrations at the club. And talking about threes, this is our manager's third season only as a manager. That brings and contributes towards it's own set of circumstances and possibily problems.

You would hope Reading would be 'dispatched' but as we're suffering from the same inability to put the ball in the net as we did all last season, that curse can strike irrespective of the opposition and the inability to score changes the dynamic against every team. The only thing that will likely change is the number of chances we create. The lack of goals is always likely to be a problem until the underlying causes are rectified.

The most important result, as always, is not the last one, but the next one.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 20, 2012, 07:56:42 PM
Suddenly we are ONLY 5 points from 4th.............
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 20, 2012, 08:15:17 PM
Suddenly we are ONLY 5 points from relegation.............
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 20, 2012, 08:28:56 PM
A damning stat and a very scary one...we have to do our utmost to win any game at the moment. Any win gains confidence and if we fail to win this one then we'd better start waking up to the possibility of a relegation struggle.

we're three points closer to the 40 points mark.  And that's a relief.

I read another very disturbing stat today on the BBC website - that prior to today's result, Arsenal had won more times at Anfield in 2012, than Liverpool had in 2012.  Surreal.

Our overall form across this year, is not nearly relegation form, it is full-blown bottom 2 form.

But Barticus, it is hardly surprising, since we have been saying for the past 2 or 3 years about our incredulity at our manager appointments, transfer dealings and boardroom personnel.

To my eyes, we are no closer to any balance in the team (under Rodgers).  We are merely playing masturbatory football.  It is often pleasing on the eye.  But why aren't we building from the back.  A good defence is where one starts when building a team.  And at the front, why did we jettison our forwards and bring nobody in.

I am an old fogey, when it comes to formations.  But I was always  used to the standard 4-4-2.....which could be changed and tweaked when and where applicable (often mid-game). 

In such a formation, where does someone like Allen fit in?  OK, I like the lad.  His terrier style and interplay is pleasing on the eye.  But in practical terms, where does he fit in.  He is central midfielder.  And yet, he is neither an attacking midfielder (he couldn;t hit a barn door, the stats are embarrassing across his career)....and he would never be strong enough to be a defensive midfielder.  To me, he is a luxury player.  Someone that one needs for masturbatory football.   Generic masturbatory football gets you nowhere.  The master of such football, is Arsene Wenger (a far better manager than Rodgers).....and yet, look at the lack of trophies he has won this past decade.  So even masturbatory football at it's finest, offers limited returns.  At the end of the day, there has to be an end product.  Top level football is all about being clinical.  It is not about passing the ball to death, or passing for the sake of passing.

And Gerrard is still in the centre of midfield......and has cost us several goals again this season.

The major positives, to date....the lad Sterling is a gem.  And today, there were several touches from Wisdom that were delightful.

Long winter ahead.  40 points is our first target.  Given a year or two, I see Rodgers as a top ten manager at best.  Even with our vast riches (we are the league's 4th biggest wages payer), we struggle to break down the tiny teams, like stoke and reading.  Most likely Everton will finish ahead of us this season (and they pay something like only 35 percent of the wages we pay).

*battening down the hatches....preparing for incoming scandinavian scuds*
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 20, 2012, 08:38:08 PM
*battening down the hatches....preparing for incoming scandinavian scuds*

Russian arms exports are far (and near) reaching.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 20, 2012, 09:00:04 PM
Russian arms exports are far (and near) reaching.

reckon he might be a commie?

the fourth man....maybe a Kim Philby.

if Sweden invades Panama, I'll be holed up in the Brazilian embassy.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 20, 2012, 09:21:53 PM
we're three points closer to the 40 points mark.  And that's a relief.

I read another very disturbing stat today on the BBC website - that prior to today's result, Arsenal had won more times at Anfield in 2012, than Liverpool had in 2012.  Surreal.

Our overall form across this year, is not nearly relegation form, it is full-blown bottom 2 form.

But Barticus, it is hardly surprising, since we have been saying for the past 2 or 3 years about our incredulity at our manager appointments, transfer dealings and boardroom personnel.

To my eyes, we are no closer to any balance in the team (under Rodgers).  We are merely playing masturbatory football.  It is often pleasing on the eye.  But why aren't we building from the back.  A good defence is where one starts when building a team.  And at the front, why did we jettison our forwards and bring nobody in.

I am an old fogey, when it comes to formations.  But I was always  used to the standard 4-4-2.....which could be changed and tweaked when and where applicable (often mid-game). 

In such a formation, where does someone like Allen fit in?  OK, I like the lad.  His terrier style and interplay is pleasing on the eye.  But in practical terms, where does he fit in.  He is central midfielder.  And yet, he is neither an attacking midfielder (he couldn;t hit a barn door, the stats are embarrassing across his career)....and he would never be strong enough to be a defensive midfielder.  To me, he is a luxury player.  Someone that one needs for masturbatory football.   Generic masturbatory football gets you nowhere.  The master of such football, is Arsene Wenger (a far better manager than Rodgers).....and yet, look at the lack of trophies he has won this past decade.  So even masturbatory football at it's finest, offers limited returns.  At the end of the day, there has to be an end product.  Top level football is all about being clinical.  It is not about passing the ball to death, or passing for the sake of passing.

And Gerrard is still in the centre of midfield......and has cost us several goals again this season.

The major positives, to date....the lad Sterling is a gem.  And today, there were several touches from Wisdom that were delightful.

Long winter ahead.  40 points is our first target.  Given a year or two, I see Rodgers as a top ten manager at best.  Even with our vast riches (we are the league's 4th biggest wages payer), we struggle to break down the tiny teams, like stoke and reading.  Most likely Everton will finish ahead of us this season (and they pay something like only 35 percent of the wages we pay).

*battening down the hatches....preparing for incoming scandinavian scuds*

Go back to wanking over Benitez. As that is all your good for, because you have no clue at all about football apart from that (i.e. your love of 442. 442 formation is as dead as the dodo at the top level of the game now). I'll continue to support Rodgers thanks.

I thought Liverpool supporters were supposed to support their manager when the manager is fighting for the club and embraces its culture (i.e. not Hodgson). I guess with all that wanking your doing over Benitez, your blindness increases.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 20, 2012, 09:23:42 PM
reckon he might be a commie?

the fourth man....maybe a Kim Philby.

if Sweden invades Panama, I'll be holed up in the Brazilian embassy.

Unless Sweden did a spot of cold war espionage and stole the blueprints, the incoming Swedish scud would be of Russian manufacture.

Martin's definately a Red.  8) I like his optimism. He'll learn though.  :D  Age has a way of doing that to you.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 20, 2012, 09:57:28 PM
Go back to wanking over Benitez. As that is all your good for, because you have no clue at all about football apart from that (i.e. your love of 442. 442 formation is as dead as the dodo at the top level of the game now). I'll continue to support Rodgers thanks.

I thought Liverpool supporters were supposed to support their manager when the manager is fighting for the club and embraces its culture (i.e. not Hodgson). I guess with all that wanking your doing over Benitez, your blindness increases.

bloddy ell, why do you and Martin keep bringing up Rafa Benitez?

hardly a day goes by, when you don;t vent your anger at our ex manager.

and really, you and martin have to stop with the nasty personal abuse.  Not only is it against the terms and conditions that you signed up under, when registering in here.....but it is also childish.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 20, 2012, 09:59:34 PM
Unless Sweden did a spot of cold war espionage and stole the blueprints, the incoming Swedish scud would be of Russian manufacture.

Martin's definately a Red.  8) I like his optimism. He'll learn though.  :D  Age has a way of doing that to you.  :D

aye, he may be a red...but what shade of red?

a chinese or a russian red.....a united or a scouse red.

double agents come in all shapes and guises.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 20, 2012, 10:24:12 PM
I suppose my feeling was that this was our easiest fixture in the league 'til Villa on
December 15th and I would have preferred to have a look at Assaidi, Downing and
Henderson.

Funny thing football Ed. What appears easy and difficult on paper can be quite something else on the pitch. I suppose Brendan has his reasons for today's selection. Trust is a factor. Only Brendan knows who he trusts when a result is vital. I guess he trusts Sterling more than Downing. It takes bottle to make decisions like that and he deserves credit for that. I suspect we'll see some if not all of those players you mentioned on Thursday.

Quote
A result was paramount but at some point the personnel will have to be jiggled about
and let's just hope they're ready to make an impact when called on because as Tes
mentioned a decision will have to be taken at some point about our route to European
football next season. Which is an interesting question in itself, is that the priority this
season to retain our presence in Europe next season!

The league will be our priority this season. Has to be both for the financial reward it brings and the feeling in the club that a corner has been turned. Higher than 8th will be seen as a good first season for Brendan. I don't think the financial rewards of the Europa are that high anyway. A decent run in domestic cups would be nice though.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 20, 2012, 10:33:10 PM
and really, you and martin have to stop with the nasty personal abuse.  Not only is it against the terms and conditions that you signed up under, when registering in here.....but it is also childish.

That's a bit rich coming from someone who refers to the Liverpool manager as a fu.kwit!  >:(
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 20, 2012, 10:45:35 PM
bloddy ell, why do you and Martin keep bringing up Rafa Benitez?

hardly a day goes by, when you don;t vent your anger at our ex manager.

and really, you and martin have to stop with the nasty personal abuse.  Not only is it against the terms and conditions that you signed up under, when registering in here.....but it is also childish.

Because ever since Rodgers has come here have you ever backed him and said that you'll support him in his efforts for us. Ever since your hero was denied the job you've been on his back.

If Rodgers had been like Hodgson and not embraced the Liverpool way, had kissed manc bottom then I'd have understood your position on Rodgers.

If we were 3 years down the line and saw no progression in the league, not seen his ideals come to fruition and not seen any player development then I'd also have understood your position.

But at every single opportunity you have undermined everthing Rodgers has said and done.

Also in respect of you saying Allen is simply an ok player is mind boggling.

Joe Allen will never be a defensive midfielder in the ilk of Keane or Makelele. Nor will he be an offensive midfielder like Gerrard or Zidane. He is simply a central midfielder who along with Lucas is going to be the engine room in helping us ascent the table.

Allen's decision making skills are excellent. At the young age he has been entrusted with the responsibility of controlling the tempo for us. He possesses good off the ball movement, allowing him to get free and make himself available for the pass. He also seems to be in right place at the right time when helping out the defense. He also makes good decisions when to get forward or stay back, usually timing his runs into the box effectively.

He also possesses very good technical ability. He has a good first touch which allows him retain the ball in tight spaces or under intense pressure. His first touch allows him separate himself from opponents and create enough room to pass, shoot or run with the ball. He is not one to dribble except when he absolutely has to.  He also possesses close control in the face of pressure.

He is statistically one of the best passers in Europe. He completed 90.3 percent of his passes last season, making him among the top 10 in terms of passing percentage. He plays a lot of short passes, but he can certainly loft a 30-40 yard pass and looks to become even more proficient as a passer.

Both defending and work rate goes hand in hand because it is Allen’s work rate that allows him to him to contribute defensively. His ability to track back and get in the right position after we loses possession allows him to time his tackles and intercept passes. He is not one to shy away from a tackle, the good thing about it is that he can actually tackle rather than earn unnecessary bookings.

So quite frankly your assessment of Allen says to me your understanding of football is either incredibly low or you are incredibly biased against a player Rodgers has bought.

Either way either you are stupid or a dumbass.

Peace.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 20, 2012, 10:46:14 PM
Has to be both for the financial reward it brings and the feeling in the club that a corner has been turned.

Only our club could turn a corner to come full circle.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 20, 2012, 10:51:00 PM
Only our club could turn a corner to come full circle.  :D

Bloody 'ell Tes. Don't you start with the negativity. We have enough with dude!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 20, 2012, 10:53:08 PM
I don't think the financial rewards of the Europa are that high anyway.

The competition itself is worth pennies at the side of the CL, but it's much more a case of European exposure, Ray.
It doesn't do for clubs the likes of our's and the Ajaxs and Milans etc not to be playing in European competition of some sort every season. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 20, 2012, 10:56:32 PM
The competition itself is worth pennies at the side of the CL, but it's much more a case of European exposure, Ray.
It doesn't do for clubs the likes of our's and the Ajaxs and Milans etc not to be playing in European competition of some sort every season. 

Well we're in it this season Tes and I think we'll be there again next season. Not sure which compo next season though. January signings need to hit the ground (and net) running!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 20, 2012, 10:57:12 PM
Funny thing football Ed. What appears easy and difficult on paper can be quite something else on the pitch. I suppose Brendan has his reasons for today's selection. Trust is a factor. Only Brendan knows who he trusts when a result is vital. I guess he trusts Sterling more than Downing. It takes bottle to make decisions like that and he deserves credit for that. I suspect we'll see some if not all of those players you mentioned on Thursday.

The league will be our priority this season. Has to be both for the financial reward it brings and the feeling in the club that a corner has been turned. Higher than 8th will be seen as a good first season for Brendan. I don't think the financial rewards of the Europa are that high anyway. A decent run in domestic cups would be nice though.
I'll have to look at the game before I can say.

Thursday's a biggie and I'm looking forward to see Hiddink's outfit, they've
lost one out of twelve in their league this season and are top of it!

I'd argue missing out on Europe would have to be seen as a step backward,
that's why I'm keen for us to stay in all competitions.

The competition itself is worth pennies at the side of the CL, but it's much more a case of European exposure, Ray.
It doesn't do for clubs the likes of our's and the Ajaxs and Milans etc not to be playing in European competition of some sort every season. 
Agree! If he holds on to Europe, then credit to him.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 20, 2012, 11:03:28 PM
Either way either you are stupid or a dumbass.

my summer assessments and predictions have, to date, been spot on.

the club has made it's worst ever start to a league season in it's 120 year history.

we are now struggling to even beat the likes of stoke and reading....even at anfield.

you, as usual, make bad calls and then get heated up about it.

but hey, keyboard hard-man, if you want to meet up and discuss the issues, do let me know.   :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 20, 2012, 11:14:04 PM
Bloody 'ell Tes. Don't you start with the negativity. We have enough with dude!

Ray, it was a poor attempt at a play on words. Do you remember Houllier telling us we'd turned a corner (more than once)? When you used that phrase it was like going in full circle from Houllier through to now.

We're seeing the culmination of a lot of mistakes over two decades. We have to start and re-build somewhere.

At least Rodgers appears to understand Liverpool. Hodgeson for his decades in the game just didn't.

I expect to see refreshing things and mistakes from a young inexperienced manager. The willingness to blood the kids rather than doing the safe, stale old thing of keeping picking the tried and failed. He wants to play a way that is nearer what we want from a Liverpool team.
His ideas can be a touch idealistic but that comes with youth and inexperience. He'll learn to find the balance.
Even Taggart, especially in Europe had that lesson to learn.

Even if we don't set the world on fire this season, we've already had the enjoyment of seeing the emergence of Sterling, Suso and especially Wisdom. The former two were known about and whilst Wisdom was to a degree, not being an attacking player, he'd never had the same build up. He looks so accomplished for such a young player and has a calm, mature head, far beyond his years.

We've hardly been regular winners of trophies since the last title, so there have been seasons that literally gave us nothing. This one has already given us the young players. I'm enjoying their emergence immensely, and especially without a Sugar Daddy.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 20, 2012, 11:17:30 PM
Well we're in it this season Tes and I think we'll be there again next season. Not sure which compo next season though. January signings need to hit the ground (and net) running!

If we qualify again for next season that in itself brings stability. Before we climb back we have to make sure the slide is arrested. Re-qualification goes towards that aim.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 21, 2012, 03:04:11 AM
Trust is a factor. Only Brendan knows who he trusts when a result is vital. I guess he trusts Sterling more than Downing. It takes bottle to make decisions like that and he deserves credit for that. I suspect we'll see some if not all of those players you mentioned on Thursday.
Just watched the game and am wondering what happens when teams start asking more
questions of us than Reading (they could barely cross the ball...honest!)

We are merely playing masturbatory football. 
There's an element of that and the rumours that we're still interested in Theo Walcott aren't
exactly comforting. We tend to play this football like we're 4 up all the time?? I don't understand,
I mean slow things down, build and sustain the possession and pressure in their half, take your
chances!

the lad Sterling is a gem.  And today, there were several touches from Wisdom that were delightful.
I think we play Raheem far too much at the moment (awesome finish for the goal though 'cos
he gave himself a bit to do). Wisdom got caught out a few times at the back and Suso was
relatively annonymous. Not having a go, just sayin' that it's difficult to expect 90 mins. of
premier league football consistently from these youngins.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 21, 2012, 09:41:06 AM
Ray, it was a poor attempt at a play on words. Do you remember Houllier telling us we'd turned a corner (more than once)? When you used that phrase it was like going in full circle from Houllier through to now.
I don't Tes. Probably why your humour was lost on me.  :(


At least Rodgers appears to understand Liverpool...His ideas can be a touch idealistic but that comes with youth and inexperience. He'll learn to find the balance.[/quote]
Agreed. I think he will grow into the job quite rapidly though. He's definitely a thinker.

Quote
Even if we don't set the world on fire this season, we've already had the enjoyment of seeing the emergence of Sterling, Suso and especially Wisdom. The former two were known about and whilst Wisdom was to a degree, not being an attacking player, he'd never had the same build up. He looks so accomplished for such a young player and has a calm, mature head, far beyond his years.
I haven't seen enough from MoTD highlights to judge Wisdom. I'm guessing you are watching games not available to UK viewers.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 21, 2012, 09:44:02 AM
Just watched the game and am wondering what happens when teams start asking more
questions of us than Reading (they could barely cross the ball...honest!)

I guess we up our game accordingly. I'm sure subconsciously the players approach a game against Manure totally differently to the Readings of the world.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 21, 2012, 05:32:43 PM
I guess we up our game accordingly. I'm sure subconsciously the players approach a game against Manure totally differently to the Readings of the world.
Maybe, I think there's a lot of ifs and maybes in that team.

I couldn't help but feel disgusted at the finishing (just embarassing!).

I agree with Dude that the style of football is poncy.

This attitude, oh look Suso played a lovely ball there gets us nowhere.
Its 90 mins..

I think that there needs to be much more balance in the team, it all went down
the left yesterday, I can't understand why the more direct Downer didn't feature
on the right. It's too chaotic in the second half of the pitch with Luis popping up
everywhere and Stevie compounding matters by playing impossible balls all the time.
Courage, imo, would be to get a grip on the midfield and pull Stevie out of it, leave
it to the likes of Allen, Henderson and Sahin to Control that area. Fine in the final third
things can be more fluid but more structure is required elsewhere.

BR is too intoxicated by technicians Luis, Sterling, Suso, Shelvey & Gerrard at the expense
of intelligent players like e.g. Kuyt who do the dirty and effective work.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 21, 2012, 09:53:22 PM
I'm guessing you are watching games not available to UK viewers.

http://www.day.to/ (http://www.day.to/)

http://www.wiziwig.tv/competition.php?part=sports&discipline=football (http://www.wiziwig.tv/competition.php?part=sports&discipline=football)

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 21, 2012, 10:02:13 PM
http://lshunter.tv/ (http://lshunter.tv/)

http://livetvcafe.net/ (http://livetvcafe.net/videos)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 21, 2012, 11:18:15 PM
I couldn't help but feel disgusted at the finishing (just embarassing!).

Football isn't an exact science. People have errors of judgement and make mistakes. On another day they go in. I don't see what there is to be embarassed about.

Quote
I agree with Dude that the style of football is poncy.

This attitude, oh look Suso played a lovely ball there gets us nowhere.
Its 90 mins..
Each to their own opinion. Easy on the eye might be another way of looking at it.

Quote
I think that there needs to be much more balance in the team, it all went down
the left yesterday, I can't understand why the more direct Downer didn't feature
on the right. It's too chaotic in the second half of the pitch with Luis popping up
everywhere and Stevie compounding matters by playing impossible balls all the time.
Courage, imo, would be to get a grip on the midfield and pull Stevie out of it, leave
it to the likes of Allen, Henderson and Sahin to Control that area. Fine in the final third
things can be more fluid but more structure is required elsewhere.

BR is too intoxicated by technicians Luis, Sterling, Suso, Shelvey & Gerrard at the expense
of intelligent players like e.g. Kuyt who do the dirty and effective work.

I can't form an opinion from 3 minutes of highlights on MoTD. If that's how you saw it, fair enough. If we get a result I'm not that bothered how poncy or not the football was. Strange way of describing a style of football. Seems our manager cannot do right for wrong.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 21, 2012, 11:31:24 PM
Football isn't an exact science.
actually, it is an exact science.......one endeavours to score more goals than the opposition, and specific points awarded accordingly.


Each to their own opinion. Easy on the eye might be another way of looking at it.

I can't form an opinion from 3 minutes of highlights on MoTD. If that's how you saw it, fair enough. If we get a result I'm not that bothered how poncy or not the football was. Strange way of describing a style of football. Seems our manager cannot do right for wrong.
what a bizarre stance, after our worst ever start to a season,

Ray, you appear to spend your time getting in a tantrum at other folks posts, and then going on long sabbaticals.

why not actually watch our games and chat about them.

that is what a forum is all about.


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 21, 2012, 11:40:25 PM
actually, it is an exact science.......one endeavours to score more goals than the opposition, and specific points awarded accordingly.
How you play cannot be an exact science as everyone has different styles. The desired result is the exact science. All teams desire the same thing but how they go about it differs.

Quote
what a bizarre stance, after our worst ever start to a season,
Then why isn't the UK press lambasting the team and manager because they're not. They can see that good football is being played but the results haven't gone our way due to a couple of basic mistakes. If we were playing crap football do you really think they would hold back?

Quote
Ray, you appear to spend your time getting in a tantrum at other folks posts, and then going on long sabbaticals.

why not actually watch our games and chat about them.

that is what a forum is all about.

Because sometimes I get so annoyed at what some write I don't want to join in. Also, I don't have as much free time as others because I still work and also have other interests.

And as for watching the team, I watch through legitimate broadcasts. I'm not interested in watching illegal feeds on a laptop. So the number of games I see is limited.

Off to bed now.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 21, 2012, 11:49:10 PM
Football isn't an exact science. People have errors of judgement and make mistakes. On another day they go in. I don't see what there is to be embarassed about.
Given our tradition of producing top finishers it's embarassing.
This has been an ongoing problem at the club recently and it
should be taken seriously.

Each to their own opinion. Easy on the eye might be another way of looking at it.
Yeah but then it becomes purely a question of aesthetics and while I have no
problem with moments of individual genius that produce a tangible end product,
in general the beauty of football, imo, is the mechanics and dynamic of the team.
& before I hear it we are not in the same footballing solar system as Brazil '82 &
the total football experiment of the Dutch circa '74.

Strange way of describing a style of football.

It's more an attitude, I prefer teams that have mental steel, get results and i suppose as was
once said of Daley Thompson "It's not enough for him to win; he has to mentally destroy
his opponent"
. By comparison we run around all afternoon with very little end product and
have to suffer the indignity of a last 15 minutes of pressure from one of the weakest teams in
the division on our home patch. It's poncy  :)

Seems our manager cannot do right for wrong.
He did ok in the post match interview, mentioned clean sheets twice, seemed more results oriented
and wasn't off on his usual little self serving diversions. Though taking credit for Sterling's goal with
his we practise these things in training was less impressive (he couldn't help himself). One of these
days he may do a proper one where i can go "sounds like the LFC gaffer now, Thank Christ!"  :)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 21, 2012, 11:59:32 PM
Then why isn't the UK press lambasting the team and manager because they're not. They can see that good football is being played but the results haven't gone our way due to a couple of basic mistakes. If we were playing crap football do you really think they would hold back?

the press always are behind the times (there is a significant time lag).....for a couple of reasons 1) there are very few really good football journalists (most are rubbish); and 2) they build you up, so that they can later shoot you down.   People like Martin Samuel, for example, are a joke. 

but the press always have their own agendas.  And they exist primarily to make profits.



And as for watching the team, I watch through legitimate broadcasts. I'm not interested in watching illegal feeds on a laptop. So the number of games I see is limited.

 :D

that being the case, you are mixing with some devilish folks in here.

some day, you may come over to the dark side.

there is a world beyond the BBC and Sky.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 22, 2012, 11:37:26 AM
aye, he may be a red...but what shade of red?

a chinese or a russian red.....a united or a scouse red.

double agents come in all shapes and guises.

 ;D ;D ;D

Brilliant, that one! Cheers for the larf.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 22, 2012, 11:46:14 AM
I don't Tes. Probably why your humour was lost on me.  :(


At least Rodgers appears to understand Liverpool...His ideas can be a touch idealistic but that comes with youth and inexperience. He'll learn to find the balance.
Agreed. I think he will grow into the job quite rapidly though. He's definitely a thinker.
I haven't seen enough from MoTD highlights to judge Wisdom. I'm guessing you are watching games not available to UK viewers.

If you're asking me, Wisdom's already first-choice RB. What a talent that lad is!!! Fair enough his youth will let him down every now and then but it's obvious he has the mental strength to learn from his mistakes and improve. Suso, I think has a tendency to start the games well but fade out as the game progress.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 22, 2012, 11:56:22 AM
what a bizarre stance, after our worst ever start to a season.

That's all you have isn't it? That quasi-argument, I mean. Not saying it'll happen but if we were to win our next 3 games we'd end up finding ourselves in the best november position since God knows when. It's not your negativity mate, it's the stupidness of drawing major conclusions on the back of a handful of games that make anything you say void of credibility and simply tedious.

For those of us who actually support and believe in the manger of this great club I have no doubt in my mind this will be a season to remember and for good reasons. If picking and pissin on every little detail you can come by make you cum well then I'm happy for you. Just wish you could keep it to yourself and instead of spouting your negativity around get over the bitterness that seem to stem from the fact your beloved Rafa ain't ever gonna manage this team again.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on October 22, 2012, 01:16:03 PM
Last time i looked, this was a forum, where people of different views were able to show pleasure or displeasure at what's going on at a club that we all think about every day.
If we all sing from the same hymn sheet then this would mean a pretty dull and unthoughtful forum and we'd have to put up with loads of 'agreed, yes, can't argue with the above' etc.

The reason i read all these comments is that we are all allowed to have an opinion about the good ship jolly Rodgers. And unless the pro Rodgers camp have turned into Captain Bligh, where every discontented voice walks the plank, then we should all put up with it.

The point of an opinion is that in order to put that point across you have to back it up with things like stats etc...Blind optimism is all very well but can be also dangerous...'i see no iceberg' for example. I saw on football focus the other day that steve clarke spoke about this season being the one that he and kenny would concentrate on, i think that was way too optimistic and the previous season saw precious little of a change around. Personal attacks such as f**k off etc really don't add anything except lessen the sayers point of view.

Last time i looked this forum was open to everyone. I for one, enjoy the banter and difference of opinion. I don't pull a hissy fit and start swearing at the pro rodgers supporters because they don't think like me.
Stats like the worst start for 120 years are meaningful. Have we fallen so low to not let that affect us anymore?
The press not being on the backs of the manager is down to the honeymoon period. They did the same with Hodgson (judge me after 10 games - which they did) and Dalglish in his first full season. The press can change in a month. Also maybe one reason why they're not quite as critical is because we're not a threat any more.

Rodgers has made mistakes which we've discussed ad infinitum and some promise with the brave use of the kids etc...The use of the youngsters in Europe have been a very positive and enjoyable one so far. I've preferred to watch those games this season than some of our league ones.

We all want our team to go back to beating Reading 4/5 nil and so we have every right to argue that gerrard should be nowhere near our central midfield because it weakens us or that another player should be used in another position...

The whole point of us being critical or praising is that we have all watched enough football in the past decades to know what's good and bad. We played some good stuff under Evans, Houllier, Benitez and that end half season of Kennys. We remember the distant past where we won things for 20 years. All those games are part of us and when we see positive things or things amiss with the team in front of us we have every right to criticize or praise as we see fit.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 22, 2012, 01:53:26 PM
That's all you have isn't it? That quasi-argument, I mean. Not saying it'll happen but if we were to win our next 3 games we'd end up finding ourselves in the best november position since God knows when. It's not your negativity mate, it's the stupidness of drawing major conclusions on the back of a handful of games that make anything you say void of credibility and simply tedious.

For those of us who actually support and believe in the manger of this great club I have no doubt in my mind this will be a season to remember and for good reasons. If picking and pissin on every little detail you can come by make you cum

Martin, you're the most negative poster in the forum.

Indeed, you're one of the most negative people that I have ever encountered.

when we were top 4 each season, ranked one in Europe, and dominating the Champions League, you were whining away (as per usual).

try and stick to analysing the football and where the club is at; and keep your nasty personal abuse of other posters to yourself.  As they say in football, play the ball, not the man. 

and try not to post while drunk.



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 22, 2012, 02:34:30 PM
Last time i looked, this was a forum, where people of different views were able to show pleasure or displeasure at what's going on at a club that we all think about every day.
If we all sing from the same hymn sheet then this would mean a pretty dull and unthoughtful forum and we'd have to put up with loads of 'agreed, yes, can't argue with the above' etc.

The reason i read all these comments is that we are all allowed to have an opinion about the good ship jolly Rodgers. And unless the pro Rodgers camp have turned into Captain Bligh, where every discontented voice walks the plank, then we should all put up with it.

The point of an opinion is that in order to put that point across you have to back it up with things like stats etc...Blind optimism is all very well but can be also dangerous...'i see no iceberg' for example. I saw on football focus the other day that steve clarke spoke about this season being the one that he and kenny would concentrate on, i think that was way too optimistic and the previous season saw precious little of a change around. Personal attacks such as f**k off etc really don't add anything except lessen the sayers point of view.

Last time i looked this forum was open to everyone. I for one, enjoy the banter and difference of opinion. I don't pull a hissy fit and start swearing at the pro rodgers supporters because they don't think like me.
Stats like the worst start for 120 years are meaningful. Have we fallen so low to not let that affect us anymore?
The press not being on the backs of the manager is down to the honeymoon period. They did the same with Hodgson (judge me after 10 games - which they did) and Dalglish in his first full season. The press can change in a month. Also maybe one reason why they're not quite as critical is because we're not a threat any more.

Rodgers has made mistakes which we've discussed ad infinitum and some promise with the brave use of the kids etc...The use of the youngsters in Europe have been a very positive and enjoyable one so far. I've preferred to watch those games this season than some of our league ones.

We all want our team to go back to beating Reading 4/5 nil and so we have every right to argue that gerrard should be nowhere near our central midfield because it weakens us or that another player should be used in another position...

The whole point of us being critical or praising is that we have all watched enough football in the past decades to know what's good and bad. We played some good stuff under Evans, Houllier, Benitez and that end half season of Kennys. We remember the distant past where we won things for 20 years. All those games are part of us and when we see positive things or things amiss with the team in front of us we have every right to criticize or praise as we see fit.

Great post Dad Barticus.

I love reading the different opinions, views and thought processes behind them. I'll answer some and others, whilst I enjoy reading a different view, I may not agree with the view or the logic behind it, so I ignore it.

Some of us like to focus just on the football, some of us look at all aspects of the club, some of us look at the financial side as much as the football (probably due to the fact that in modern football money plays such a ridiculously large part in it).

We all come from different backgrounds and have had differing life experiences making us all who we are. We should expect a range of views and opinions.

I don't know if any of you post or read other forums such as RAWK or TLW, but on RAWK there is a decreed view you have to subscribe to (or you're likely to be banned) and TLW gets very abusive, both on a personal level and at players and managers, and ends up very polar with each end of the spectrum 'laying into' the other.

Let's not go down either route on here. Let's be big enough people to respect every opinion offered, even if we vehemently disagree or think they are overly negative. That reaction in itself is only an opinion of an opinion.

Bottom line - we all want success for the club. I really don't think anyone is petty enough to positively want any aspect of failure just so they can be 'proved right'.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 22, 2012, 02:36:00 PM
Last time i looked, this was a forum, where people of different views were able to show pleasure or displeasure at what's going on at a club that we all think about every day.
If we all sing from the same hymn sheet then this would mean a pretty dull and unthoughtful forum and we'd have to put up with loads of 'agreed, yes, can't argue with the above' etc.

The reason i read all these comments is that we are all allowed to have an opinion about the good ship jolly Rodgers. And unless the pro Rodgers camp have turned into Captain Bligh, where every discontented voice walks the plank, then we should all put up with it.

The point of an opinion is that in order to put that point across you have to back it up with things like stats etc...Blind optimism is all very well but can be also dangerous...'i see no iceberg' for example. I saw on football focus the other day that steve clarke spoke about this season being the one that he and kenny would concentrate on, i think that was way too optimistic and the previous season saw precious little of a change around. Personal attacks such as f**k off etc really don't add anything except lessen the sayers point of view.

Last time i looked this forum was open to everyone. I for one, enjoy the banter and difference of opinion. I don't pull a hissy fit and start swearing at the pro rodgers supporters because they don't think like me.
Stats like the worst start for 120 years are meaningful. Have we fallen so low to not let that affect us anymore?
The press not being on the backs of the manager is down to the honeymoon period. They did the same with Hodgson (judge me after 10 games - which they did) and Dalglish in his first full season. The press can change in a month. Also maybe one reason why they're not quite as critical is because we're not a threat any more.

Rodgers has made mistakes which we've discussed ad infinitum and some promise with the brave use of the kids etc...The use of the youngsters in Europe have been a very positive and enjoyable one so far. I've preferred to watch those games this season than some of our league ones.

We all want our team to go back to beating Reading 4/5 nil and so we have every right to argue that gerrard should be nowhere near our central midfield because it weakens us or that another player should be used in another position...

The whole point of us being critical or praising is that we have all watched enough football in the past decades to know what's good and bad. We played some good stuff under Evans, Houllier, Benitez and that end half season of Kennys. We remember the distant past where we won things for 20 years. All those games are part of us and when we see positive things or things amiss with the team in front of us we have every right to criticize or praise as we see fit.

Well ain't that sweet? Problem is that your fine words doesn't hold stretch.  If we beat Reading 1-0 it's "oh, look at what a farce we've become only beating them by 1 at home", or, conversly, if we put 3, 4 or even 5 past them it's "ah, that's a one off against a newly promoted side at home". Damn if you do, damn if you don't. You can't argue with people like that as they're fundamentally indifferent to a serious and mature discussion.

You say that "stat" saying this is our worst start to a season in 2394 years is an important one. How is it an important stat? Please explain it to me because I don't understand it. First of all the number of games it's based on is ridiculously low.

Because the number of games played are so few it's, secondly, hard to say anything thoughtful or credible on the base of that "stat". As I said in my previous post, less than a handful of wins from now would put us in a better position then we ever were under Rafa in November. I remember one season where we had our bestest start in 2394 years only to go without a win for, was it, 14 games (tho admittedly that was under GH but it says a lot about how little this "stat" really means in terms of how you'll fare over the course of a season).

It's pretty much as Edward insisted in a post above: from day 1 the Rafaites have spouted their bitterness at him for no other reason than Brendan Rodgers not being Rafa. Rafael Benitez got 6 full seasons to implement his ideas. He failed. What's the problem? Moving on. Simple as.

I think it's pathetic to write off, criticize, ridicule and forecast our manager and how he will fare before he even got 1 season behind him, let alone a handful of games. But according to you, it is us "pro-Rodgers" (I'd prefer pro-LFC-manager-whoever-he-is, but each to his own) who has caused this forum to be less pleasant in the last couple of monhts. Spot on analysis there, matey!

I for one, look forward to and enjoy watching us play for the first time in 2 decades. But how can it be an enjoyable experience to watch LFC play when the team isn't balanced to fork our another p**s-boring draw at home to PL giants such as West Ham, Fulham, Hull etc.

Just so happy to never have to watch this crap again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t00D23R63ig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t00D23R63ig)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 22, 2012, 03:05:24 PM
Martin, I'm not sure whether you're meaning it that way, but why the pop at Barticus?

He didn't bring up the stat to which you refer, in fact reading back over his reply, it was very balanced, in fact a positive one and willing the team to succeed.

As far as the stat goes, it is a fact, in the same way as having a 100% record so far would also be a fact. Neither would guarantee anything come May. Some of us are more worried about it, some of us don't take it too seriously yet.
It could be a pointer towards something or equally prove to be a red herring.

I wouldn't label those who appreciate what Benitez did (CL success, No1 team in Europe, regular top 4 finish) as fawning sycophants any more than I'd label those who had got fed up with certain aspects of his management (the rigid subs, the distrust of individual flair, the appearance of buying for the sake of it, the overt politiking etc) as raving heretics.

Both Rafa before and Brendan now are working under financial restraints at a time when other clubs have endless cash. Others have had more stability off pitch, again something that applies to both managers.

FFP may or may not either lock us out of the top four without a billionaire benefactor or allow us a route back into the top four and beyond.

Whoever was manager now has a tough job living with and slowly trying to rectify the damage done by the Toxics and Purslow and the errors, inexperience, and lack of knowledge of FSG.   
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 22, 2012, 03:12:35 PM
Martin, I'm not sure whether you're meaning it that way, but why the pop at Barticus?
Yeah, out of order Marxman!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 22, 2012, 03:23:54 PM
Maybe that was a tad uncalled for. My apologies Bart. Anyroad, and as you say tes, a fact's a fact. What matters is, to me, in what context you put it in use. If you use it just to belittle the manager and the team it's quite provocative, at least where I come from as it doesn't help promote sensible discussion, isn't supportive of the club and doesn't help to keep a mature atmosphere on here.

Again Bart, sorry if you took offense.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 22, 2012, 03:27:24 PM
If it is to any consolation, here's my nominee for the next MTv awards.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyqJ9wxZ9L0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyqJ9wxZ9L0)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 22, 2012, 03:53:48 PM
Stats should never be taken as gospel, more a possible indicator of something. I think we have to be careful that we don't turn a blind eye to or gloss over things that aren't what we want to see or read, at the same time make sure we don't see them as an absolute negative indicator.

Some things don't go the way we want them to and discussing them or acknowledging them is not negative, or an indication of a lack of support but rather an understanding that things can go wrong, mistakes can be made etc, and as with anything, whether you succeed or fail in something, it's always a good thing to evaluate and examine and see where things went wrong or where, even if you succeed, you can improve.

We just need to make sure that we don't overdo the reactions to points raised, but also accept that raising a point is not a problem in itself, no matter whether it's negative or positive.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 22, 2012, 03:55:16 PM
It's pretty much as Edward insisted in a post above: from day 1 the Rafaites have spouted their bitterness at him for no other reason than Brendan Rodgers not being Rafa. Rafael Benitez got 6 full seasons to implement his ideas. He failed. What's the problem? Moving on. Simple as.

I think it's pathetic to write off, criticize, ridicule and forecast our manager and how he will fare before he even got 1 season behind him, let alone a handful of games.

some of us support the club, Martin.  The club comes before any individual.

a few on the margins, like yourself, instead like to put labels on others (e.g.  Rafa-ites).

you don't like the use of the current facts, you say.  But on the otherhand, if we had won our first half dozen games, you;d be singing from the roof-tops about such facts.

despite not having much appreciation of the manager, on a personal level, I want the club to excel.  That comes before anything else. 

And I stick to my forecast from the summer.  I predicted a horrid start, up to Christmas.  And then we'd either finish mid-table or slightly above (top eight).

People need to be brought down to earth.  Liverpool was always a hardworking club with humble ideas.  I remember Souness (when he was a player) saying that any player who came into the club and was a big-time Charlie (a big head, full of himself) was quickly brought down to earth by the other players.  They'd take the pi.ss etc and make a fool of such a person.

Our new boss has no reason to be arrogant.  He finished 13th in the table at Watford.  He was sacked at Reading.  And his short time in the game (3 or so years as a manager) has resulted in a very average 41 percent of games won.  He needs to keep his feet on the ground.  He has no reason to boast.

That being said.....now, let's get on with the season, and get a few wins under our belt.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 22, 2012, 05:19:26 PM
Given our tradition of producing top finishers it's embarassing.
This has been an ongoing problem at the club recently and it
should be taken seriously.

Agreed Ed. Torres was the last forward to regularly knock 'em in and his quality has never been replaced. You either have to find a wonderkid (high risk) or spend big time on proven quality. Sturridge is wanted but only on loan until end of season whereas Chelsea want to sell. Not sure he's the answer. Same with Ba. Just goes to show how difficult it is.

Quote
It's more an attitude, I prefer teams that have mental steel, get results and i suppose as was
once said of Daley Thompson "It's not enough for him to win; he has to mentally destroy
his opponent"
. By comparison we run around all afternoon with very little end product and
have to suffer the indignity of a last 15 minutes of pressure from one of the weakest teams in
the division on our home patch. It's poncy  :)

Steel comes with confidence and confidence comes from winning games. You can't manufacture steel. I don't know what the answer is to so-called poncy football. I don't see it as that so don't have a problem with keeping the ball but it was interesting to note that the goal on Saturday came from a very direct style of play.

Quote
He did ok in the post match interview, mentioned clean sheets twice, seemed more results oriented
and wasn't off on his usual little self serving diversions. Though taking credit for Sterling's goal with
his we practise these things in training was less impressive (he couldn't help himself). One of these
days he may do a proper one where i can go "sounds like the LFC gaffer now, Thank Christ!"  :)

He'll grow into the job. We all do that in our jobs. I don't have a problem with him using 'we' as it's a collective responsibility.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 22, 2012, 05:23:39 PM
the press always are behind the times (there is a significant time lag).....for a couple of reasons 1) there are very few really good football journalists (most are rubbish); and 2) they build you up, so that they can later shoot you down.   People like Martin Samuel, for example, are a joke. 

but the press always have their own agendas.  And they exist primarily to make profits.

I only read the Telegraph for match reports so that's predominantly Chris Bascombe who can be quite critical when it's deserved. Henry Winter is an excellent analyst. You can't agree with everything they write and I don't.

Quote
that being the case, you are mixing with some devilish folks in here...some day, you may come over to the dark side..there is a world beyond the BBC and Sky.

LOL! I just find it too difficult to see the ball on a 15" laptop. I suppose I'm spoilt have a 42" plasma. One day maybe.  :)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 22, 2012, 05:55:14 PM
Well I've managed to get a ticket for the Liverpool-Wigan game on Nov. 17!

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 22, 2012, 06:13:03 PM
Well I've managed to get a ticket for the Liverpool-Wigan game on Nov. 17!

Well done! I hope you enjoy the game. If you have the time get there early and visit the museum. Well worth it!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 22, 2012, 08:39:56 PM
I only read the Telegraph for match reports so that's predominantly Chris Bascombe who can be quite critical when it's deserved. Henry Winter is an excellent analyst. You can't agree with everything they write and I don't.

LOL! I just find it too difficult to see the ball on a 15" laptop. I suppose I'm spoilt have a 42" plasma. One day maybe.  :)

It's not the greatest way to watch on a 17" monitor but it takes me back to when you could only 'listen' to football if you couldn't get to the match. I guess I have 'a thing' for slumming it.  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 22, 2012, 08:56:34 PM
Well done! I hope you enjoy the game. If you have the time get there early and visit the museum. Well worth it!

I definitely want to go to the museum.

I am at the Anfield Road end. How likely am I to get a bus back to the station in time for me to catch either the 5.48 to Euston or 5.52 to Ely?!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 22, 2012, 09:53:09 PM
Edward,

I don't live near the club and when I used to go it was by car. The best advice can be found in this link. http://www.liverpoolfc.com/travel/getting-to-anfield

It's only 2 miles from Lime Street Station so I would have thought you have a decent chance of getting there for those trains. If only Kopite was still here he could give you more precise help but ask in a pub or inside the ground and I'm sure someone will help.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 22, 2012, 09:55:48 PM
It's not the greatest way to watch on a 17" monitor but it takes me back to when you could only 'listen' to football if you couldn't get to the match. I guess I have 'a thing' for slumming it.  ;D

Better than not seeing it at all I suppose. It does pain me at times the amount of money I give to Murdoch but I don't have many other weaknesses and I have to spend it on something!

So where in the world do you live Tes?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 22, 2012, 10:02:57 PM
Better than not seeing it at all I suppose. It does pain me at times the amount of money I give to Murdoch but I don't have many other weaknesses and I have to spend it on something!

So where in the world do you live Tes?

Derbyshire, about 8 miles from Matlock, though there's nothing 'peakturesque' about Alfreton and all the surrounding area. Much prefer the Newark area of Notts where I'm originally from (brought up).

I'm with Dude on refusing to give 'the Dark One' money. A stream's not that bad when you get a decent one but as I rarely watch TV (only our matches in the UEFA Cup) I don't find it a problem as I'm not used to TV really.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 22, 2012, 10:14:59 PM
Not that far away from me then. I thought you might be retired in Spain. I'm sure you wouldn't have to travel far to get into nice scenery. Bakewell's just up the road. Can't beat a good tart!  :D

If I  killed my sub then I would only see streamed games with inevitable delays despite having a fast broadband connection and brief highlights on MoTD. It's worth it even though I am making the bugger richer. Nose, spite and cut spring to mind regarding cancellation.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 22, 2012, 10:39:55 PM
Not that far away from me then. I thought you might be retired in Spain. I'm sure you wouldn't have to travel far to get into nice scenery. Bakewell's just up the road. Can't beat a good tart!  :D

If I  killed my sub then I would only see streamed games with inevitable delays despite having a fast broadband connection and brief highlights on MoTD. It's worth it even though I am making the bugger richer. Nose, spite and cut spring to mind regarding cancellation.

To be honest Ray, I don't miss Sky at all. The streams aren't that bad and some of the commentary teams I come across are better than anything I ever suffered with Sky.   
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 22, 2012, 10:40:59 PM
All this talk about our worst start in 100 years got me curious so I dug up some stats. That may well have been the case after a few games but after 8 games we had fewer points 2 seasons ago when we had accrued just ... 6 points! Our best in the last 8 seasons was 2008-09 when we accrued 20 points.

2005-06 wasn't much better with only 10 points after 8 and that team included Alonso and Garcia plus Gerrard in his prime.

And in those seasons we finished 6th in 2010-11; 2nd in 2008-09 and 3rd in 2005-06. That last season especially shows we can recover and be in with a chance of CL football. Always the optimist!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 22, 2012, 10:46:17 PM
To be honest Ray, I don't miss Sky at all. The streams aren't that bad and some of the commentary teams I come across are better than anything I ever suffered with Sky.

The only ones I've seen Tes were from a site named iraqitv or something like that. It was a waste of time. These new links sound better for those that don't want to subscribe to Sky. I still enjoy Jeff Stelling's programme on Saturday PM.

I hope you get a good feed for next Sunday with a juicy double bill!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 23, 2012, 12:19:14 AM
The only ones I've seen Tes were from a site named iraqitv or something like that. It was a waste of time. These new links sound better for those that don't want to subscribe to Sky. I still enjoy Jeff Stelling's programme on Saturday PM.

I hope you get a good feed for next Sunday with a juicy double bill!

It's a shame I can't get Jimmy Armfield as co on any of the feeds. I could listen to him talk about football for hours.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on October 23, 2012, 08:18:47 AM

Again Bart, sorry if you took offense.

None taken mate...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 23, 2012, 03:48:17 PM
It's a shame I can't get Jimmy Armfield as co on any of the feeds. I could listen to him talk about football for hours.

same here.

The Alan Green and Jimmy Armfield Radio 5Live combo was always my fave.

wish I could get a UK proxy server that would enable me to listen to 5Live abroad.  Any UK proxies I have used, have never worked properly.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on October 23, 2012, 06:47:52 PM
same here.

The Alan Green and Jimmy Armfield Radio 5Live combo was always my fave.

wish I could get a UK proxy server that would enable me to listen to 5Live abroad.  Any UK proxies I have used, have never worked properly.

try 'expat shield' dude....it works superbly here in spain...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 23, 2012, 06:58:34 PM
try 'expat shield' dude....it works superbly here in spain...

thanks for the tip, barticus!

downloading it right now.

yehaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 23, 2012, 07:50:42 PM
same here.

The Alan Green and Jimmy Armfield Radio 5Live combo was always my fave.

wish I could get a UK proxy server that would enable me to listen to 5Live abroad.  Any UK proxies I have used, have never worked properly.

It's as bad as not being able to find good wholemeal/granary bread or thick cut marmalade abroad.  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 23, 2012, 08:05:09 PM
It's as bad as not being able to find good wholemeal/granary bread or thick cut marmalade abroad.
ah, for a nice pot of marmalade.

my big miss, apart from long summer nights (sun goes down very early in tropics, 7pm), is HP sauce.

I had a Brit friend bring me over a couple of bottles this year.

And another canadian friend brought me two bottles down from Canada.  Tho the Canadian HP is slightly watered down and a tad less burny.

And what I would give on a Friday night for a curried fried rice.......and some spring rolls.

or a sausage supper (sausage and chips), covered in salt and vinegar.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 28, 2012, 10:44:37 AM
Our team to face Everton is:-

Jones, Wisdom, Skrtel, Agger, Johnson, Gerrard, Sahin, Allen, Suso (on the left), Sterling (on the right) and Suarez.

Everton's rumoured team is:-  Howard, Jagielka, Distin, Baines, Coleman, Osman, Neville, Fellaini, Mirallas, Naismith, Jelavic
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 28, 2012, 10:52:05 AM
Edward,

Jason Burt in the Sunday Telegraph suggested Jones would retain his place. Seems fair enough when he's kept 2 clean sheets. It'll give Pepe something to think about. He shouldn't think he has a god-given right to slot back in as soon as he's fit.

BR is certainly demonstrating he's willing to make big decisions. Let's hope he isn't let down by showing such faith.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 28, 2012, 12:11:20 PM
Cheers for the line-up Edward mate. So Fellaini's playing after all? Tough luck for us I guess. I'd liked to see Shelvey ahead of Sahin for this game. Also think Downing should've got the vote of confidence as given him a run of games is the only realistic chance he could regain his confidence.

I'd settle for a draw.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 28, 2012, 01:11:30 PM
Enrique is in for Johnson. Must mean Johnson hasn't recovered from Thursday.

Enrique playing doesn't fill me with confidence tbh.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 28, 2012, 01:47:54 PM
yehaaaa!!!

1-0

it just had to be Suarez!!

And he celebrates right in front of Moyes and the Everton dugout!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 28, 2012, 01:54:14 PM
a second for Suarez!!!

Moyes pre-game attack on Suarez comes back to haunt him.

oh fek, everton have got one back.  sterling needs to stick to his man.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 28, 2012, 02:24:35 PM
2-2. Knew Everton would level up when they scored the first.

TBH I can only see an Everton win now. They have the momentum and from every set piece they look dangerous.

Sterling has had his worst game in a Liverpool shirt and we aren't creating much from open play. Suso has also been quiet.

Fellaini has been dominating.

I'd take off Suso and bring on Henderson. Henderson's height and ball retention ability will help us be more solid in central midfield. It will also allow Sahin to go further forward.

Mirallas has been very impressive.

On our side I think Enrique has done well and Skrtel has been immense.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 28, 2012, 02:25:57 PM
Good first 20 from us. Unfortunately Jones handed them a free ticket back into the game 2 minutes after we scored our second. What a shitty keep he is. You can't make mistakes like that at this level.

Everton playing lightyears above their true level so we'll probably lose this one 4-2 or 5-2. We have nothing that makes us look like taking anything from this game. Sterling too light-weight, Suso not defensively strong enough. Sahin still doesn't have the tempo in him. I'd play Shelvey and Downing in 2nd half.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 28, 2012, 02:27:25 PM
2-2. Knew Everton would level up when they scored the first.

TBH I can only see an Everton win now. They have the momentum and from every set piece they look dangerous.

Sterling has had his worst game in a Liverpool shirt and we aren't creating much from open play. Suso has also been quiet.

Fellaini has been dominating.

I'd take off Suso and bring on Henderson. Henderson's height and ball retention ability will help us be more solid in central midfield. It will also allow Sahin to go further forward.

Mirallas has been very impressive.

On our side I think Enrique has done well and Skrtel has been immense.

I would a agree with much of that. Wisdom's not having a cracker either albeit up against arguably the best left flank in the PL.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 28, 2012, 02:39:28 PM
Wow, switching from 4-3-3 to 3-5-2 taking off Sahin and Suso, putting on Coates and Shelvey. Well done BR.

Sterling missing a sitter. Take the lad off Brendan.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 28, 2012, 03:26:52 PM
Robbed!!! Never offside and no foul committed. Robbed!!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 28, 2012, 03:27:04 PM
linesman rules out suarez's hatrick winner.

shocking, absolutely shocking, decision.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 28, 2012, 03:27:32 PM
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK linesman you c u n t  >:(

Much better tactically in the 2nd half.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 28, 2012, 03:29:51 PM
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK linesman you c u n t  >:(

Much better tactically in the 2nd half.

Family forum Edward.  Cut out the foul language >:(
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 28, 2012, 03:38:57 PM
Family forum Edward.  Cut out the foul language >:(

NO!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 28, 2012, 03:44:46 PM
Makes you feel like a big man does it? We're all dissapointed. Show some intelligence!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 28, 2012, 03:45:33 PM
Robbed by that incompetent linesman. The same linesman that missed an off-side on Jelavic after 1 minute. I hate that fucker and wish him the worst in his life. He's just poor and worthless at what he does.

So this is the super bestest Everton ever. Yer havin a larf, right. :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 28, 2012, 03:49:29 PM
Robbed by that incompetent linesman. The same linesman that missed an off-side on Jelavic after 1 minute. I hate that fucker and wish him the worst in his life. He's just poor and worthless at what he does.

So this is the super bestest Everton ever. Yer havin a larf, right. :D

I know right. Even with Neverton's best team, even with their momentum and even with their confidence right now they still couldn't get the job done against us.

Rodger's tactical nous is very very good. He spotted that in the first half we were all over the place and changed things at half time to a 3-5-2 formation and we were much more solid in the 2nd half.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 28, 2012, 04:03:09 PM
Robbed by that incompetent linesman. The same linesman that missed an off-side on Jelavic after 1 minute. I hate that fucker and wish him the worst in his life.

why do you always want people to get an awful illness and die?  (wasn't it cancer you wished on someone last month?)

it's a sport, not a war.


So this is the super bestest Everton ever. Yer havin a larf, right. :D

so what does that say about us.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 28, 2012, 04:06:28 PM
Well it says that Everton's best ever team under moyes can't beat one of our most weakest teams and youngest team in premier league history. That's what it tells me.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 28, 2012, 04:17:50 PM
(this is one of) our most weakest teams and youngest team in premier league history.

so you have now turned a full 180 degrees and suggest that this is one of Liverpool's weakest teams ever.

and there was me thinking that we were the most awesome thing since sliced bread.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 28, 2012, 04:19:46 PM
Go back to wanking over Benitez. I bet had Benitez had done that tactical change at half time you'd be marveling over it.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 28, 2012, 04:32:08 PM
nasty personal abuse, is your answer to everything. 

and like last weekend, YOU bring up the name 'Benitez' (not me).




Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 28, 2012, 04:37:53 PM
so what does that say about us.

Quite a lot actually, and good things too at that considering we're building for the future and are some way from where we want to be. Again the ref denied us the points but it's supposed to even out.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 28, 2012, 04:40:07 PM
Quite a lot actually, and good things too at that considering we're building for the future and are some way from where we want to be. Again the ref denied us the points but it's supposed to even out.

yes, very poor decision by the linesman.

but as for luck, Kenny also felt it would even out, and it never did.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 28, 2012, 07:34:10 PM
Well it says that Everton's best ever team under moyes can't beat one of our most weakest teams and youngest team in premier league history. That's what it tells me.
Em, we've dropped 17 points in our opening 9 fixtures, so perhaps
a sense of perspective is required?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 28, 2012, 08:20:41 PM
but as for luck, Kenny also felt it would even out, and it never did.

As Gary Player said "The more I practice the luckier I get".

Only saw the last five minutes but can't work out what the linesman thought he saw. If Jagielka chooses not to jump and Coates comes down on him, it's not a foul. I wonder if anyone else would have been flagged offside (if that's what the flag was for).
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 28, 2012, 10:31:33 PM
As Gary Player said "The more I practice the luckier I get".
Grate minds.    :D    I had been thinking of using that Gary Player line, when writing the above post.

yes, the bad luck excuse gets old very quickly in professional sport.


Only saw the last five minutes but can't work out what the linesman thought he saw. If Jagielka chooses not to jump and Coates comes down on him, it's not a foul. I wonder if anyone else would have been flagged offside (if that's what the flag was for).

no, clearly nobody was offside.  The reds were not even level, with the blues, farless offside.

I assume that he belatedly disallowed it for the Coates jump.  But as you say, it was never a foul.

Listen, if Man Utd score in this scenario, it always counts.

But I will admit, the everton fans were immense today and the noise they generated put  a lot of pressure on officials.  No excuse though, for a very bad decision.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 29, 2012, 01:34:34 AM
Thought Everton were the better team but we were unjustly
denied a clear winner. Shocking decision.  :o

Credit to Joe Allen today, thought he wasup against it with
Felliani and at times the match-up was comical, given
their heights. But he never gave up and that's something that's
great to see.

As I've said before, i just don't understand starting with kids
and in the Merseyside derby (baptism of fire)??

What I saw was lads like Daniel, Martin, Stevie and Luis who
relish the occasion want to be there (even Jones to his credit
looked like he was not phased by it) and then at the other end of
the scale there's players (and this is entirely normal) that didn't
necessarily look comfortable (1 or 2 statues). I never got that
impression with the Everton lads, a well drilled determined outfit.

Imo, the kids are more effective in bursts, last 20 minutes send
Sterling on, he'll win a peno. I thought Henderson with his physicality
and premier league experience (150 games) would've suited the
game and Shelvey and Downing should've figured from the start
(at the expense of Suso, Sterling and Sahin).

Anyway, no problem with the point, but still think there's much work
to do and hope lessons are being learned.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 29, 2012, 10:29:28 PM
Thought Everton were the better team but we were unjustly
denied a clear winner. Shocking decision.  :o

Credit to Joe Allen today, thought he wasup against it with
Felliani and at times the match-up was comical, given
their heights. But he never gave up and that's something that's
great to see.

As I've said before, i just don't understand starting with kids
and in the Merseyside derby (baptism of fire)??

What I saw was lads like Daniel, Martin, Stevie and Luis who
relish the occasion want to be there (even Jones to his credit
looked like he was not phased by it) and then at the other end of
the scale there's players (and this is entirely normal) that didn't
necessarily look comfortable (1 or 2 statues). I never got that
impression with the Everton lads, a well drilled determined outfit.

Imo, the kids are more effective in bursts, last 20 minutes send
Sterling on, he'll win a peno. I thought Henderson with his physicality
and premier league experience (150 games) would've suited the
game and Shelvey and Downing should've figured from the start
(at the expense of Suso, Sterling and Sahin).

Anyway, no problem with the point, but still think there's much work
to do and hope lessons are being learned.

Ed, I agree with starting with Shelvey as he looks like he can handle himself. Suso would probably not be first choice for a Derby yet, maybe Assaidi instead due both to his age and the fact that he's not looked phased when he's had a bit of a 'roughing up' against some of the opponents he's played against.
Sterling, I would have had on. He's shown no fear, both in his ability to play his natural game, and against Premiership players literally twice his size, and whilst we match their 'Dogs of War' approach, we then need a bit of 'silk and skill' to be the difference maker.
I watched the full game this evening on a recorded stream, and how Fellaini stayed on is beyond me. There was a point when Sterling was sandwiched between Fellaini and another Everton player, I forget who, but Fellaini kicked out at Sterling twice before the combined efforts of the two brought him down. No card of course.
Fellaini also pulled Agger back when Agger got booked. There were also another couple of occasions were he lead with his studs and another challenge where he went in elbow first.

Neither Henderson or Downing can be relied upon to dig deep if things get a bit physical, though Henderson has look a bit more 'up for it' this season when he's played.

Everton were both the form team and the settled squad/manager etc, so to go 2-0 nil up, considering their form and results this season was no mean feat. Just our defending let us down and for once (in a recent Derby) Everton didn't just accept their fate.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 29, 2012, 11:44:55 PM
Ed, I agree with starting with Shelvey as he looks like he can handle himself. Suso would probably not be first choice for a Derby yet, maybe Assaidi instead due both to his age and the fact that he's not looked phased when he's had a bit of a 'roughing up' against some of the opponents he's played against.
Sterling, I would have had on. He's shown no fear, both in his ability to play his natural game, and against Premiership players literally twice his size, and whilst we match their 'Dogs of War' approach, we then need a bit of 'silk and skill' to be the difference maker.
I watched the full game this evening on a recorded stream, and how Fellaini stayed on is beyond me. There was a point when Sterling was sandwiched between Fellaini and another Everton player, I forget who, but Fellaini kicked out at Sterling twice before the combined efforts of the two brought him down. No card of course.
Fellaini also pulled Agger back when Agger got booked. There were also another couple of occasions were he lead with his studs and another challenge where he went in elbow first.

Neither Henderson or Downing can be relied upon to dig deep if things get a bit physical, though Henderson has look a bit more 'up for it' this season when he's played.

Everton were both the form team and the settled squad/manager etc, so to go 2-0 nil up, considering their form and results this season was no mean feat. Just our defending let us down and for once (in a recent Derby) Everton didn't just accept their fate.
It's almost as if he said "Hey, I'm going to do it my way" and spent the rest of
the game retreating from that position to "Jesus, throw on the big lads! :)"
.

I think Henderson could have done a job all game helping Wisdom out and whoever on the left
Downing/Assaidi. Introduce Sterling with 20 minutes to go. Anyway, i don't care because a
draw was fine but lessons should be learned because it's a long season.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 30, 2012, 12:03:50 AM
I  hope the manager is re-evaluating his way of playing as the defensive aspect has cost us more points than the 'non-scoring' part. I don't mean change it wholesale, but something has to be tweaked.
We're placing for too much pressure on ourselves with the goals we're conceding.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 30, 2012, 12:13:19 AM
From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/oct/29/liverpool-steven-gerrard-everton-physical (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/oct/29/liverpool-steven-gerrard-everton-physical)

Gerrard did reserve praise for Raheem Sterling, Liverpool's 17-year-old winger, who overcame a difficult start to impress on his Merseyside derby debut. The Liverpool captain added: "Sterling has been a revelation for us. To be 17 years of age away in a derby, in a cauldron of an atmosphere against a big, physical long-ball team, I thought he was outstanding. I don't think the Everton players would have known too much about Raheem Sterling before Sunday. But I think they are going to be seeing an awful lot of him in the future. He is going to be playing in many, many Merseyside derbies. He is going to have a major impact in them.

"He is going to be one of the top players in the league, there's no doubt about it. The way he stands up for himself, wants the ball and doesn't hide. It's a credit to himself. He has some bottle. That's what you look for in young lads. You wonder whether they have the bottle to play away against tough teams in tough situations and he handled it superbly."


Stewart Downing, take note.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 30, 2012, 12:40:23 AM
From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/oct/29/liverpool-steven-gerrard-everton-physical (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/oct/29/liverpool-steven-gerrard-everton-physical)

Gerrard did reserve praise for Raheem Sterling, Liverpool's 17-year-old winger, who overcame a difficult start to impress on his Merseyside derby debut. The Liverpool captain added: "Sterling has been a revelation for us. To be 17 years of age away in a derby, in a cauldron of an atmosphere against a big, physical long-ball team, I thought he was outstanding. I don't think the Everton players would have known too much about Raheem Sterling before Sunday. But I think they are going to be seeing an awful lot of him in the future. He is going to be playing in many, many Merseyside derbies. He is going to have a major impact in them.

"He is going to be one of the top players in the league, there's no doubt about it. The way he stands up for himself, wants the ball and doesn't hide. It's a credit to himself. He has some bottle. That's what you look for in young lads. You wonder whether they have the bottle to play away against tough teams in tough situations and he handled it superbly."


Stewart Downing, take note.
See the point I'd make is if Raheem is in the first 11 as a starter, then that is
what is expected of him.

There's no point playing the kids if the only point it serves is to say "we're playing
the kids".

We're looking for results is the attitude and the reason this lad is in the first 11 is
because there is a strong belief that he can help us get a result.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 30, 2012, 10:34:40 AM
I think Henderson could have done a job all game helping Wisdom out and whoever on the left
Downing/Assaidi. Introduce Sterling with 20 minutes to go. Anyway, i don't care because a
draw was fine but lessons should be learned because it's a long season.
I thought Henderson was poor.

But then again, Allen, Suso, Wisdom and Sterling were all not at the races.  Ideally, I would bring Sterling on as my game-changing sub, with 20 minutes to go.  But the problem is, with such a limited squad, who do we put on for the first 70 minutes.

There's no point playing the kids if the only point it serves is to say "we're playing
the kids".

We're looking for results is the attitude

exactly.

we have ten points, with almost a quarter of the season gone.

we need to kick on from this point onwards.  Or else, we are looking at a nightmare scenario.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 30, 2012, 10:38:16 AM
I  hope the manager is re-evaluating his way of playing as the defensive aspect has cost us more points than the 'non-scoring' part. I don't mean change it wholesale, but something has to be tweaked.
We're placing for too much pressure on ourselves with the goals we're conceding.

we have got no balance.  And that is where the top managers excel.  They create balanced teams.

And as we have said many many times, one builds from the back. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 30, 2012, 01:26:49 PM

we need to kick on from this point onwards.  Or else, we are looking at a nightmare scenario.

I agree I think we are going down.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 30, 2012, 02:26:14 PM
exactly.

we have ten points, with almost a quarter of the season gone.

we need to kick on from this point onwards.  Or else, we are looking at a nightmare scenario.
Ideally at this point, the way forward would be clear but we saw Everton using
that simple trick of pressing the backline when the keeper has it, disrupting the
whole possession game plan. Any of the lesser teams watching that will have
seen that the frankly ridiculous notion of countering it by playing passes over
their heads to the 2nd and 3rd lines just conceded possession.

Newcastle(H), Chelsea(A), Wigan(H), Swansea(A), Spurs(A) are the next 5.
Granted 4 of those teams are currently above us so it represents an opportunity
to get into the top half of the table. 10 points out of that 15 wouldn't seem an
unreasonable expectation to me W-L-W-W-D (Heck, I might even cheer up  :) ).
Were we to get 5 points D-L-W-D-D we'd most likely remain in the bottom half.

I presume at that point it'll be clearer whether there is tangible progress underway?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 30, 2012, 06:31:42 PM
Ideally at this point, the way forward would be clear but we saw Everton using
that simple trick of pressing the backline when the keeper has it, disrupting the
whole possession game plan.

The keeper has to be able to distribute quickly as he sees fit, whether that's giving it short or throwing it long. Alternatively the midfielder on the same side (of the penalty area that the keeper is) has to come short as the extra man to provide the outlet for the keeper and the full back needs to the move quickly off his marker to give the outlet to the midfielder who's come short.

Always doing anything the same way will allow you to have your gameplan sussed by the opposition.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 30, 2012, 06:35:23 PM
I agree I think we are going down.

No you don't, sometimes and going down where? Under? Are we touring Oz in the Summer?  ???
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 30, 2012, 07:18:14 PM
See the point I'd make is if Raheem is in the first 11 as a starter, then that is
what is expected of him.

There's no point playing the kids if the only point it serves is to say "we're playing
the kids".

We're looking for results is the attitude and the reason this lad is in the first 11 is
because there is a strong belief that he can help us get a result.

Agree, but it doesn't hurt to give a young lad praise and encouragement. And if not Sterling, then who? If he's the best we have it doesn't make him what we neccessarily need or that he's good enough, but when you consider his age and lack of experience, he's given us more in a handful of games than Downing has in a season and a quarter.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on October 30, 2012, 08:11:32 PM
Agree, but it doesn't hurt to give a young lad praise and encouragement.
Aye but praise and encouragement quickly turns into hype, expectations
go up and then all of a sudden the lad is under too much pressure, imo.

And if not Sterling, then who?
Downing and Assaidi are the natural options imo.

Like no one reasonable is going to have a go at Sterling, but what I'm seeing is
for example no real cover for Wisdom to begin with, was Suso playing that side?
(when Henderson has done that job last season, how well is a matter of opinion)
and Sterling getting a caution from the ref in the first half (effectively meaning
he'll have little defensive input from then on).

Are we going to get some consistent performances in November with this kind of
experimentation when the lesson of the derby is surely that the original line-up
was not thought out properly and we were lucky not to be blown away in the first
half, imo.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 30, 2012, 09:02:43 PM
Lverpool players wages. Official.
As Football Manager Demo was released today I can tell you that these players are the highest paid footballers in the Premier League. As Football Manager, also known as FM has got the rights from the FA - they hold the official wages with further contract details on ALL players in the Premier League.

(per week):

1. Steven Gerrard - £120.000
2. Luis Suárez - £100.000
3. Pepe Reina - £90.000
4. Joe Cole - £90.000
5. Jamie Carragher - £85.000
6. Stewart Downing - £80.000
7. Glen Johnson - £80.000
8. Jordan Henderson - £70.000
9. Martin Skrtel - £70.000
10. Daniel Agger - £70.000
11. Lucas Leiva - £65.000
12. Nuri Sahin - £91.000, we pay £64.000.
13. José Enrique - £55.000
14. Doni - £50.000
15. Joe Allen - £45.000
16. Fabio Borini - £30.000
17. Seba Coates - £29.000
18. Oussuma Assaidi - £21.000
19. Danny Wilson - £20.000
20. Brad Jones - £20.000
21. Jonjo Shelvey - £18.000
22. Martin Kelly - £15.000
23. Suso - £10.000
24. Dani Pacheco - £7.000
25. Raheem Sterling - £5.000
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on October 30, 2012, 10:35:58 PM
Aye but praise and encouragement quickly turns into hype, expectations
go up and then all of a sudden the lad is under too much pressure, imo.
Downing and Assaidi are the natural options imo.

Like no one reasonable is going to have a go at Sterling, but what I'm seeing is
for example no real cover for Wisdom to begin with, was Suso playing that side?
(when Henderson has done that job last season, how well is a matter of opinion)
and Sterling getting a caution from the ref in the first half (effectively meaning
he'll have little defensive input from then on).

Are we going to get some consistent performances in November with this kind of
experimentation when the lesson of the derby is surely that the original line-up
was not thought out properly and we were lucky not to be blown away in the first
half, imo.

Rodgers really has very little to work with. Whoever came in as manager would have faced the same problems thanks to Dalglish and Comolli's negligence, not just in buying who they did, but still going ahead with the deals at the prices quoted.

Rodgers was not my choice but I do feel for him looking at that squad. Henderson proved himself to be woeful out on the right last season, and him being in an attacking front three is probably even more alien to him than the position Dalglish kept shoving him in last season. And as for Downing. He went missing more times than an English tourist's child abroad.
Granted, Sterling isn't going to give any full back much coverage but if Johnson wasn't injured then we'd have probably seen him given the nod ahead of Wisdom to deal with Mirallas.

I understand what you are saying re praise and hype etc, but it depends on the individual as to whether they see praise as a spur to improve even more or an indication that they've "made it". Soon enough the papers will start to hype Sterling and it will be down to the club and the players to help him keep his feet on the ground.

If our expectations go any higher than the rightful level and we start expecting a 17 y.o to be our saviour then we are at fault when it doesn't quite work out that way.

As for the performances it's hard to know. Has too much been changed too quickly? Probably.
Without the ability to bring in a significant number of players that are at a stage where they already understand the way Rodgers wants to play, maybe he'd have been better going for evolution than revolution.
Rewind to the most recent time where our football proved to be successful (Dalglish's half season) and start from there. Most of those players are still here so only really Dirk and Maxi have to be replaced. Allen could have slotted into that style OK.
Then as we bring in more players that are more suited then change things accordingly and let the personnel available dictate the pace of change.

Maybe Rodgers is having to give the kids a go so he can see which ones he can count on in the future and which he can't. He looks like he's made up his mind about some of the more established players and he's having to use the season working through who has a future and who doesn't and go with those who are seen to be the future rather than those who are soon to have LFC as their past. It gives him a better understanding of what is needed and how to prioritise the recruitment process, which is likely to take a while as we neither have the cash to make wholesale changes or the appetite, I'd imagine, as changing too many players in one go leads to a team of strangers like the one we saw last season. Changing the playing philosophy AND the players wholesale is probably too big a leap even for someone as brave/reckless (delete as applicable) as Rodgers.

It's just frustrating that the bedding in period/evolutionary stage is going to seemingly be such a long one, meanwhile we see other teams apparently overtaking us and those we were aiming to catch up with move further ahead.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 03, 2012, 05:13:46 PM
Man United  - Arsenal      2-1 
Tottenham   - Wigan        0-1 
Swansea     - Chelsea     1-1 
Fulham      - Everton       2-2

Those results means winning tomorrow would be absolutely massive in getting our season back on track.

COME ON YOU REDMEN!!!!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 03, 2012, 06:46:03 PM
Ideally at this point, the way forward would be clear but we saw Everton using
that simple trick of pressing the backline when the keeper has it, disrupting the
whole possession game plan. Any of the lesser teams watching that will have
seen that the frankly ridiculous notion of countering it by playing passes over
their heads to the 2nd and 3rd lines just conceded possession.

Newcastle(H), Chelsea(A), Wigan(H), Swansea(A), Spurs(A) are the next 5.
Granted 4 of those teams are currently above us so it represents an opportunity
to get into the top half of the table. 10 points out of that 15 wouldn't seem an
unreasonable expectation to me W-L-W-W-D (Heck, I might even cheer up  :) ).
Were we to get 5 points D-L-W-D-D we'd most likely remain in the bottom half.

I presume at that point it'll be clearer whether there is tangible progress underway?

yes, Ed, re pressuring the opposition's defence........that was always something we did ourselves.  Ian Rush was superb at it.  Indeed, many called him our first line of defence.

It's too easy to counter our very limited tic-tac style.  And if you're gonna move the ball intelligently out from the back, you need a keeper who can distribute it well (long throws are important).   Reina is superb at distributing the ball from the back.

Yes, those next five games are going to be crucial.  You predict 10 points, from the next 5 games.  I think we will be lucky to get 5 or 6.  These games will give a good pointer to where our season is going.....i.e.  if it will be a relegation battle season, with us in the bottom 6 or 7 all season, or a non-descript wishy-washy mid-table season.   

You are more positive than me.  I see deadly icebergs ahead (to use Tes's shipping analogy from a previous post).   We are playing a very limited style of football, and we have a young lad in the dugout who is way out of his depth.  Sure, he will blame limited resources....but why did we allow top senior players to leave, and not replace them. 

We needed an old experienced hand at the tiller, to get the club through a difficult spot of water.  In over 40 years of watching football, one of the key things I discovered with experience, was that when things go south, young managers don't know how to arrest a bad run of form/results.   Correcting the ship, and getting her on an even keel, is something that old bearded ship captains are much better at doing. 

Experience is something that clubs (indeed, modern society in general) ridiculously pay scant regard to.


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 03, 2012, 07:21:37 PM
Man United  - Arsenal      2-1 
Tottenham   - Wigan        0-1 
Swansea     - Chelsea     1-1 
Fulham      - Everton       2-2

Those results means winning tomorrow would be absolutely massive in getting our season back on track.

COME ON YOU REDMEN!!!!!

I totally agree. We win tomorrow and we are only 4 points behind 4th with only 10 games played.

Personally I don't expect us to finish in the top 4. BUT I want us to compete for that 4th place with arsenal, spurs, newcastle and everton. Not flounder away like last season.

If we can get into January 4-7 points behind 4th place with a fully fit Lucas to come back and the transfer window open for us to strengthen, then we certainly have the opportunity to compete for that place and not be 10-15 points behind come February, March time.

Newcastle will be a massive test for us though. They have two confident strikers. However they have a poor record at Anfield and their defence isn't all that, so we have a chance to beat them if we can control the midfield.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 03, 2012, 07:39:55 PM

Personally I don't expect us to finish in the top 4. BUT I want us to compete for that 4th place with arsenal, spurs, newcastle and everton. Not flounder away like last season.

Exactly, I expect us to finish 6th to 10th but the feeling we're within touching distance will do wonders for the rebuilding process. Just like there are different ways to lose or win games, there are different ways to finish 6th.

Massive game indeed.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 03, 2012, 10:35:38 PM
Experience is something that clubs (indeed, modern society in general) ridiculously pay scant regard to.

Experience is the most priceless commodity there is. Unfortunately as you can't see it, or hold, or trade it on the markets, it's something that in the last 30 years has been criminally cast aside and disgarded.

Youth is wasted on the young and wisdom and experienced is acquired too late in life.

Mourinho work under Sir Bobby as his assistant, learning from the experienced older man. Now look at Mourinho.

Spurs had to turn to 'Arry when things were going south under Juande Ramos.

The Mancs brought in Taggart who had broken the Glasgow duopoly and won European silverchair when all Aberdeen was previously famous for were drilling platforms and a cow that shared it's name with a manic little guitar player in the biggest band to come out of Oz and go on to be one of the biggest names in rock.

Guardiolas tend to be the exception.

Any manager coming in would face the same problems Rodgers does, but some would have the extra tool of experience to use. Again, he's hampered, as would any other manager be by the lack of an administration worth it's title at the club. I think we have to be careful that we don't blame Brendan Rodgers for being the owners' choice. However things go over the next few years, the responsibility for his selection as manager is never going to be Rodgers' to bear and it shouldn't be something that gets placed around his neck.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 04, 2012, 04:00:13 PM
I have extremly negative vibes 5 minutes before KO. Think they'll beat us heavily. Pardew is right we look extremly vurnerable at the mo.

Come on your Redmen!!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 04, 2012, 04:36:45 PM
First 10 we throwed everything we got in their direction with Sterling being very lively and direct. Newcy's fought their way back into the game without creating anything worth mentioning. But we are not as cohesive as we were during the first 10. Suso's a waste of space and look terrified to be honest. Never thought I'd say it but I actually think Downing would be a better proposition for 2nd half.

Sahin's having his best game in a red shirt in the PL while Allen's not found his way into this game. Might be tired. Gerrard need to spur the lads on as we look inclined to fall back. Our attack's are less and less organised attacking on his own against an entire Newcy defence in place.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 04, 2012, 05:04:01 PM
Game over
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 04, 2012, 05:07:20 PM
Game over

That's the worst part, isnt it? That you know, in fact feel with every cell of your body, there aint' no way back for us. We start the 2nd half as we did the first. We won't score so after ca 10 minutes the game will even out before they score their second.

Totally depressed.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 04, 2012, 05:18:57 PM
And Anfield is like a fornicating library. So fed up with this romantic myth we have the super duper bestest fans in the world. By the sound of it, or rather lack of, we only sing when we win.

Gutted!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 04, 2012, 05:27:40 PM
Sell Shelvey tomorrow!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 04, 2012, 05:46:41 PM
Or preferrably, sell the waste of space tonite.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 04, 2012, 05:48:06 PM
Just sell him now. That was the 3rd sitter he missed. He's costing us the points.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on November 04, 2012, 06:14:12 PM
LMAO...when the going gets tough martin and edward224 get going...ffs you criticise dude, ed, tes, me et al for giving constructive and wise criticism and you're laying judgement on a team that you're supposed to be backing til the end...very odd...fair play!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 04, 2012, 06:29:25 PM
LMAO...when the going gets tough martin and edward224 get going...ffs you criticise dude, ed, tes, me et al for giving constructive and wise criticism and you're laying judgement on a team that you're supposed to be backing til the end...very odd...fair play!

I'm sorry for being frustrated from watching a professional footballer missing out on 3 sitters inside 20 minutes costing us not only 3 points but also a ticket back into this season.

I'm behing the manager and the team, just wish I never get to see Shelvey play in a red shirt anytime soon. What's your problem?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 04, 2012, 08:09:05 PM
Suso for me is not a right sided midfielder. He is a central attacking midfielder not a right side attacking midfielder.

Downing was a waste of space when he came on too.

For me Gerrard has to partner Suarez, so I would up until January adjust tactics and play as thus:-

---------------------------------Reina----------------------------

----Johnson---------Skrtel------------Agger-----------Enrique-----------


---------------Henderson------Allen-----------Sahin--------------------


-------------------------------Gerrard-------------------------------------

-------------------------------Suarez--------------------------------------
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 04, 2012, 10:44:10 PM
Suso for me is not a right sided midfielder. He is a central attacking midfielder not a right side attacking midfielder.

Downing was a waste of space when he came on too.

For me Gerrard has to partner Suarez, so I would up until January adjust tactics and play as thus:-

---------------------------------Reina----------------------------

----Johnson---------Skrtel------------Agger-----------Enrique-----------


---------------Henderson------Allen-----------Sahin--------------------


-------------------------------Gerrard-------------------------------------

-------------------------------Suarez--------------------------------------

Good idea, it's just that it seems to anticipate we're constantly reduced to 10 men. :P

Agree, Suso was a waste of space today. He's not a starter at this moment no matter how thin the squad is. Downing just meant it was 10 vs 10 towards the end. And then we have Shelvey. Ah, don't get me started. Not good enough for the reserves and never will be good enough to occupy even a place on the bench. Cost us a vital win today whit his ineptitude.

Other than that the performance was pretty good and we should've won it 3 or 4-1. They had 2 shots at goal, we had 10, it finished 1-1. Says it all really. Gerrard MUST be played in a more attacking role if we are to have any chance to turn those draws into wins.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on November 04, 2012, 10:53:29 PM

I'm behing the manager and the team, just wish I never get to see Shelvey play in a red shirt anytime soon. What's your problem?

i have no problem mate...but any player can have a rotten game...to never want to see him in a liverpool shirt again seems a tad...extreme...
is the adoration of the virgin brendan also to that extreme?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 04, 2012, 11:36:32 PM
Suso and Shelvey are young men learning their trade, learning to play under pressure, learning to play in front of 40,000 people instead of 10, they will make mistakes, they will make poor decisions - it's what being young does to you.

They are all we have. Some of the more senior, older, supposedly wiser players are a far greater disappointment.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 04, 2012, 11:51:02 PM
LMAO...when the going gets tough martin and edward224 get going...ffs you criticise dude, ed, tes, me et al for giving constructive and wise criticism and you're laying judgement on a team that you're supposed to be backing til the end...very odd...fair play!

I was chuckling to myself as well Barticus (like the mad man I am) reading Edward and Martin's public soul bearing.

It's just some people see it earlier than others, some see it choose to ignore it in the hope it will get better.

All of what we've seen this season is to be expected. Our club is in the middle of a perfect storm - 20 years of weak, then scandalous ownership, new owners who are neither knowledgeable or come from a country that immerses itself in football, a weak CEO, a young, very inexperienced manager (coaching is different to managing) and a threadbare squad, padded out with young players being expected and needed to offer as much as senior pros and a transfer budget that would struggle to buy the weekly shopping in your average middle class household.   

Therefore we have two things only, hope and faith. All we can do is try and keep believing that at some point the tide will change.

During that time there is nothing wrong with constructive criticism, pointing out what we think is wrong and offering up suggestions as to alternatives. That comes from the desire to see things put right and go right, and let's allow eachother to feel the different things, in the different ways, we all as individuals will do.

Let's avoid personal abuse of individual players, the manager or each other, as there's more than enough of that coming from opposition fans and the media, but calling out a player when they've under-performed is perfectly acceptable, afterall, they have a responsibility to give 100% and nothing less to our club.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 04, 2012, 11:54:43 PM
And Anfield is like a fornicating library. So fed up with this romantic myth we have the super duper bestest fans in the world. By the sound of it, or rather lack of, we only sing when we win.

Gutted!

It's what happens when you price out the 'core support' and replace it with those who will increase 'income per seat'. Football has become entertainment for the spectator and in those circumstances you don't get 'unconditional support'.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 05, 2012, 01:10:59 AM
i have no problem mate...but any player can have a rotten game...to never want to see him in a liverpool shirt again seems a tad...extreme...
is the adoration of the virgin brendan also to that extreme?

It wasn't just this game tho, mate. He really couldn't build on his one great performance against the Young Boys, now could he? Oh, and for the record, I do  not think missing those sitters have anything at all to do with age, just ability or, rather, inability.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 05, 2012, 01:13:10 AM
It's what happens when you price out the 'core support' and replace it with those who will increase 'income per seat'. Football has become entertainment for the spectator and in those circumstances you don't get 'unconditional support'.

I know, I know, still... When I go to Anfield (which isn't very often) at least I don't go as a spectator nor should anyone the way I see it. It got better after Suarez wonder goal. We need it earlier tho.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 05, 2012, 01:25:37 AM
LMAO...when the going gets tough martin and edward224 get going...ffs you criticise dude, ed, tes, me et al for giving constructive and wise criticism and you're laying judgement on a team that you're supposed to be backing til the end...very odd...fair play!
Agree, the most important thing today was the result and when
all the talk dies down it was a poor result for us.

I'm thinking Chelsea away next weekend and tbh seeing Roberto Martinez
plotting in the stands today didn't exactly fill me with confidence ahead
of the next home game.

I thought Newcastle defended very well today, that we didn't really create
any clearcut chances and were wasteful with corners and freekicks.

It's just completely ridiculous given our lack of options up front that
we're not making set-pieces count.

The reliance on Suarez is the other big worry, lad is playing out of his
skin for us at the moment, others need to step up!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 05, 2012, 08:07:06 AM
I don't know Ed, but it seems to reflect a need you have to always belittle the team. I would subscribe to most of what you say, but to suggest we didn't create enough clear cut chances takes away whatever credibility you have. But then again, you most often doesn't seem to watch the whole games.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 05, 2012, 12:53:15 PM
LMAO...when the going gets tough martin and edward224 get going...ffs you criticise dude, ed, tes, me et al for giving constructive and wise criticism and you're laying judgement on a team that you're supposed to be backing til the end...very odd...fair play!

any player can have a rotten game...to never want to see him in a liverpool shirt again seems a tad...extreme...
is the adoration of the virgin brendan also to that extreme?

have to admit, that I had a good chuckle yesterday too, Barticus, when I came in and saw their posts.

they well and truly nailed their colours to the good ship, Jolly Rodgers, and ridiculed the rest of us (with much personal abuse), when we offered genuine analysis (based on much experience).

and now when the good ship, Jolly Rodgers, is aground, they jump ship like a plague of rats. 

But of course, they blame everything but Rodgers.  It's the players, it's the fans, it's the owners, it's the groundsman, it's the curse, it's the pressure, it's lack of time, it's lack of resources, it's lack of experience with new systems, etc, etc, etc, etc.

The bottom line - the only thing keeping the Jolly Rodgers project afloat is Luis Suarez. 



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 05, 2012, 02:53:24 PM
But of course, they blame everything but Rodgers.  It's the players, it's the fans, it's the owners, it's the groundsman, it's the curse, it's the pressure, it's lack of time, it's lack of resources, it's lack of experience with new systems, etc, etc, etc, etc.

It sure as hell isn't because of lack of Rafa tho, that I tell you. Rafa was found out, and it beggar's belief  that an all-knowing being like yourself couldn't tell when the rest of the would could.

They had two shots on goal, one went in and it was a rather nice one admittedly. We had 10 shots on goals. I remember during Rafa when it took us 15 games to assemble 10 shots on goals. Brrrr, ugly memory off you go.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 05, 2012, 03:58:05 PM
I don't know Ed, but it seems to reflect a need you have to always belittle the team. I would subscribe to most of what you say, but to suggest we didn't create enough clear cut chances takes away whatever credibility you have. But then again, you most often doesn't seem to watch the whole games.
Hey look i wasn't belittling, more criticising aspects.

Anyway, if we had such clearcut chances, name 'em?

because i didn't think Krul particularly busy. You might
also ask the question why Newcastle's game plan was
to allow us to keep the ball.

& i also find it worrying that your man BR is EARLY November
speaking about hypotheticals in the January transfer window.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 05, 2012, 05:11:56 PM
Hey look i wasn't belittling, more criticising aspects.

Anyway, if we had such clearcut chances, name 'em?

because i didn't think Krul particularly busy. You might
also ask the question why Newcastle's game plan was
to allow us to keep the ball.

& i also find it worrying that your man BR is EARLY November
speaking about hypotheticals in the January transfer window.

1) Shelvey in front of open goal 8 yards out after Suarez set him up.

2) Shelvey at the far post with no marking north of the Sahara's finishing on volley instead of doing it like Cabaye did.

3) Shelvey with free header and no marking some 4-5 yards infron of goal straight into the arms of Krul.

That's 3 extremly open chances of wich 2, IMHO, are to be considered sitters.

Then you have

4) Sterling set up by Suarez to the right but took to long to unleash.

5) Suarez from the right tho Krul made it hard for Luis.

6) Iron cast penalty on Suarez after 7-8 minutes after a reckless challenge from Collocini. I've seen at least 5 peno's called this season for much less than that.

As I said they had 2 on goal of which 1 went in an the other was a rather lame shot from some 27 yards out. Funny Pardew thought they deserved the win. Hilarious.

I can't fault the overall performance.

I can't fault team selection.

I can't fault tactical approach.

I can't fault Brendan Rodgers and most of the players.

But I do fault some of our players concentration and will to win in key situations. If we play like this and create this many chances we'll enjoy the ride.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 05, 2012, 05:15:55 PM
It sure as hell isn't because of lack of Rafa tho, that I tell you. Rafa was found out

yeah, I wish he could be "found out" again......and soon.

Season by Season Record

2009/10
Premier League: 7th (63 points)
Europa League: Semi Final (lost to Atletico Madrid)
League Cup: 5th Round (lost to Arsenal)

2008/09
Premier League: 2nd (86 points)
Champions League: Quarter Final (lost to Chelsea)
FA Cup: 4th round (lost to Everton)
League Cup: 4th round (lost to Tottenham)

2007/08
Premier League: 4th (76 points)
Champions League: Semi-Final (lost to Chelsea)
FA Cup: 5th round (lost to Barnsley)
League Cup: 5th round (lost to Chelsea)

2006/07
Premier League: 3rd (68 points)
Champions League: RUNNERS-UP (lost to AC Milan in Final)
League Cup: QF (lost to Arsenal)

2005/06
Premier League: 3rd (82 points)
Champions League: Last 16 (lost to Benfica)
FA Cup: WINNERS (beat West Ham in Final)

2004/05
Premier League: 5th (58 points)
Champions League: WINNERS (beat AC Milan in Final)
League Cup: RUNNERS UP (lost to Chelsea)


BTW how has the club done since the overthrow of Rafa?  Heck, how has your big fave, Rodgers, got on? 

Ah, that's right, he has led us to our worst ever league start in the club's history.



it beggar's belief  that an all-knowing being like yourself couldn't tell when the rest of the would could.

They had two shots on goal, one went in and it was a rather nice one admittedly. We had 10 shots on goals. I remember during Rafa when it took us 15 games to assemble 10 shots on goals. Brrrr, ugly memory off you go.

when Rafa was turfed out, I was right then (in calling it madness); and I am still right, in that assessment.

but hey, I do not need to even say a single thing. 

you and edward have totally snookered yourselves.  I gave you enough rope, and you hung yourselves.



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 05, 2012, 05:18:42 PM
1) Shelvey in front of open goal 8 yards out after Suarez set him up.

2) Shelvey at the far post with no marking north of the Sahara's finishing on volley instead of doing it like Cabaye did.

3) Shelvey with free header and no marking some 4-5 yards infron of goal straight into the arms of Krul.

That's 3 extremly open chances of wich 2, IMHO, are to be considered sitters.

Then you have

4) Sterling set up by Suarez to the right but took to long to unleash.

5) Suarez from the right tho Krul made it hard for Luis.

6) Iron cast penalty on Suarez after 7-8 minutes after a reckless challenge from Collocini. I've seen at least 5 peno's called this season for much less than that.

As I said they had 2 on goal of which 1 went in an the other was a rather lame shot from some 27 yards out. Funny Pardew thought they deserved the win. Hilarious.

well who is picking all these players, that you (above) consider cr.ap?

do these lads just beam down from Mars at 4pm on a Sunday afternoon, or is someone co-ordinating the events on the pitch?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 05, 2012, 06:09:19 PM
well who is picking all these players, that you (above) consider cr.ap?

do these lads just beam down from Mars at 4pm on a Sunday afternoon, or is someone co-ordinating the events on the pitch?

As I said, I have no complaints about the oerformance or his tactical approach. The team selection is what it is. There was once this manager who absolutely loved to offer ManC-like contracts to players of very mediocre quality with no prior experience of the PL. In fact this manager signed and sold on som 85 players in his 6 years in charge. As a result we ended up with a wage structure that make us look like the USA of footy. In comes a former legend who, instead of sorting the wage structure, spend som 120 million just for the fun of it on 3 at best inept players. It's in this situation Brendan steps in. He inherits arguably the weakest squad since Shankly took over, are not given the "tools" needed but still manage to make develop the team in a remarkable fashion.

Now, what is it that he does so horrendously wrong? I for one, for the first time since God knows when, actually enjoy watching us play. I for one, and despite my extreme inexperience and lack of proper knowledge of the game actually think there's something to this team despite its lack of quality in depth, despite the fact we only have one senior striker, despite the fact we have to overrely on kids.

All you do is moan about his inexperience and how you know  it would be so much better if Rafa was in place, and if this and if that and if what fukcing have you. He got his chance, he got 6 full seasons, he got money, he got rid of Parry, he got sole control of footy dealings, he got what ever the fukc he pointed at. Yet his footy went from brilliant to dull and uninspiring. But hey, we can always blame G & H - the cause of everything bad that happened to human kind since they nailed Jesus himself to that cross.

You'd be forgiven for thinking you're just a pathetic wind-up merchant.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 05, 2012, 06:30:08 PM
As I said, I have no complaints about the oerformance or his tactical approach. The team selection is what it is. There was once this manager who absolutely loved to offer ManC-like contracts to players of very mediocre quality with no prior experience of the PL. In fact this manager signed and sold on som 85 players in his 6 years in charge. As a result we ended up with a wage structure that make us look like the USA of footy. In comes a former legend who, instead of sorting the wage structure, spend som 120 million just for the fun of it on 3 at best inept players. It's in this situation Brendan steps in. He inherits arguably the weakest squad since Shankly took over, are not given the "tools" needed but still manage to make develop the team in a remarkable fashion.

goodness, from the picture that you paint, it sounds like the club was in an awful lot of trouble.

you've made the case (better than I ever could) for the importance of the club bringing in a highly experienced manager this past summer.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 05, 2012, 07:20:56 PM
1) Shelvey in front of open goal 8 yards out after Suarez set him up.

2) Shelvey at the far post with no marking north of the Sahara's finishing on volley instead of doing it like Cabaye did.

3) Shelvey with free header and no marking some 4-5 yards infron of goal straight into the arms of Krul.

That's 3 extremly open chances of wich 2, IMHO, are to be considered sitters.

Then you have

4) Sterling set up by Suarez to the right but took to long to unleash.

5) Suarez from the right tho Krul made it hard for Luis.

6) Iron cast penalty on Suarez after 7-8 minutes after a reckless challenge from Collocini. I've seen at least 5 peno's called this season for much less than that.
U're forgetting Stevie's punt from the half-way line, open goal  :P
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 05, 2012, 10:36:32 PM
This is a reflection of our recent form. http://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/premierleague/form

Better than Arsenal's!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 05, 2012, 11:10:10 PM
U're forgetting Stevie's punt from the half-way line, open goal  :P

7)  Stevie's punt from the half-way line, open goal.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 05, 2012, 11:14:34 PM
This is a reflection of our recent form. http://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/premierleague/form

Better than Arsenal's!

Don't blaspheme Ray. Didn't you know we have the worst record in the history of this game? Didn't you know we have an inexperienced manager who couldn't win a game in League 2? I for one won't put it beyond us to win our next 4 homegames. Not saying it'll happen, just that it could. Next weekend we'll get trashed tho.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 05, 2012, 11:18:21 PM
I know, I know, still... When I go to Anfield (which isn't very often) at least I don't go as a spectator nor should anyone the way I see it. It got better after Suarez wonder goal. We need it earlier tho.

Martin, you are excluded from what I meant above. There simply isn't enough 'non spectators' going now to make the difference. Too many are 'just glad to be there'. As a fellow OOT, though nowhere near as far away as you, I see it exactly the same way as you. If you want to 'watch' the match, do it at home in the comfort of the armchair.
You go to the match to support, to do what you can as a fan to get behind the team for the 90 minutes. The moaning can be done afterwards in the pub or on places like these, forums.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 05, 2012, 11:24:23 PM
Martin, you are excluded from what I meant above. There simply isn't enough 'non spectators' going now to make the difference. Too many are 'just glad to be there'. As a fellow OOT, though nowhere near as far away as you, I see it exactly the same way as you. If you want to 'watch' the match, do it at home in the comfort of the armchair.
You go to the match to support, to do what you can as a fan to get behind the team for the 90 minutes. The moaning can be done afterwards in the pub or on places like these, forums.

Exactly. Where do you live?

I do wonder whether this issue will be addressed during the planning of expanding Anfield. I think Boroussia Dortmund is the example we should look to and be inspired by. They seem to be what we once used to be all about. A great club which I wholeheartedly hope  do well  and wish the best in the CL this year. It doesn't hurt to see them play fantastic footy either nor did the appearence of the large banner at the "yellow wall", calling for justice for the 96 earlier this autumn.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 05, 2012, 11:51:28 PM
Exactly. Where do you live?

I do wonder whether this issue will be addressed during the planning of expanding Anfield. I think Boroussia Dortmund is the example we should look to and be inspired by. They seem to be what we once used to be all about. A great club which I wholeheartedly hope  do well  and wish the best in the CL this year. It doesn't hurt to see them play fantastic footy either nor did the appearence of the large banner at the "yellow wall", calling for justice for the 96 earlier this autumn.

The German setup is far different to the Premier League. The PL is all based on 'market forces', the financially strong flourish, the less so make up the numbers. The ticket prices go up and up despite ever increasing tv revenue and the fans go the same way as the clubs.
German teams, at least the Bundesliga, all have to be 51% owned by fans and no club is allowed to run at a loss. It's solid. There's substance beneath the image and the surface. It's designed for the long term and to avoid a financial bubble being over expanded and burst. And like most German companies, they get the balance between quality product and price for the customer (fan) and the need to make a profit.
The Bundesliga may not quite have the world superstars, but neither does it have clubs in major financial difficulties having paid out more than they can afford to bring in the world stars - unlike La Liga in Spain, Serie A in Italy and the Premier League. All 3 leagues have clubs with major debt and financial problems, but still things carry on the same way.

I live in Derbyshire, but haven't been in a while as I can't warrant the cost of a ticket and travel anymore when there are greater demands on finances - family etc. The five of us that used to regularly travel up together all had the same sort of choices to make. I miss the games but not the lack of atmosphere that had already started to take hold.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 06, 2012, 12:00:00 AM
Exactly.

why are you saying "EXACTLY", in agreeing with Tes about forums being for opinions (and if need be, moaning)?

you have been insulting me (and others) for what you label as, moaning, for months.

ironically enough, the biggest moaner in this place is you.......look at the slagging you have been giving players this weekend. 

and when others upset you, you have been known to wish them to get cancer and die.  I believe you have wished death on two folks to date.

Martin, I really am starting to wonder about your sanity.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 06, 2012, 01:12:26 AM
why are you saying "EXACTLY", in agreeing with Tes about forums being for opinions (and if need be, moaning)?

you have been insulting me (and others) for what you label as, moaning, for months.

ironically enough, the biggest moaner in this place is you.......look at the slagging you have been giving players this weekend. 

and when others upset you, you have been known to wish them to get cancer and die.  I believe you have wished death on two folks to date.

Martin, I really am starting to wonder about your sanity.

I did it once in the heat of the moment. I don't know whether it matters if I say I'm sorry and regret it with every fiber of my body? As for the linesmen I said I wish him the worst - I was having in mind not being allowed to ref any time soon.

As for slagging the players. I think of the internet forums as a place that fills a lot of functions. Predominantly entertaining informed debated and discussions, but sometimes I think of it as a valve to let out some steam. It is hard to see us go into such an important game and watch players who make more money in a month I do in a year miss out on sitter after sitter.

As for the insulting part I guess it's each to his own an'all. My perception is that it is ME who have had to put up with your superior tone telling any opposing poster he or she doesn't possess a tenth of your mighty knowledge. I'm not saying that's how it actually was, just how it struck me. Either way it takes two to tango as you probably know so here's me willing to slate the sheet clean by extending my apologies for anything I might have said that offended you. In the future I'm willing to bite the tounge for the sake of the atmosphere in this place, which I rate highly. I can't promise I won't let out some steam every know and then. I'll do me best.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 06, 2012, 01:20:18 AM
The German setup is far different to the Premier League. The PL is all based on 'market forces', the financially strong flourish, the less so make up the numbers. The ticket prices go up and up despite ever increasing tv revenue and the fans go the same way as the clubs.
German teams, at least the Bundesliga, all have to be 51% owned by fans and no club is allowed to run at a loss. It's solid. There's substance beneath the image and the surface. It's designed for the long term and to avoid a financial bubble being over expanded and burst. And like most German companies, they get the balance between quality product and price for the customer (fan) and the need to make a profit.
The Bundesliga may not quite have the world superstars, but neither does it have clubs in major financial difficulties having paid out more than they can afford to bring in the world stars - unlike La Liga in Spain, Serie A in Italy and the Premier League. All 3 leagues have clubs with major debt and financial problems, but still things carry on the same way.

I live in Derbyshire, but haven't been in a while as I can't warrant the cost of a ticket and travel anymore when there are greater demands on finances - family etc. The five of us that used to regularly travel up together all had the same sort of choices to make. I miss the games but not the lack of atmosphere that had already started to take hold.

Cheers for that Tes. A lot of stuff in there I didn't know. I do know however they have stands in the Westfalen Arena. Safe stands that is. Made in a way that makes a crush virtually impossible. That's having the fan's perspective through and through. Also very interesting about fans owning the clubs. I think the invention of the PL on the one hand produced the best league in the world while killing its soul in the process. If I understand it correctly, tv-money was split even between the 92 clubs prior to the set up. Then the same system of allocating wealth that's been in place around the Western world for the past quarter of a century was put in place. It is sad and I sometimes feel very alienated from everything footy related. Wish I could go more often as I like the city and the people, but lack of personal contacts to get hold of tickets and financial constraints like the one you mentioned makes it tough.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 06, 2012, 01:23:00 AM
I did it once in the heat of the moment. I don't know whether it matters if I say I'm sorry and regret it with every fiber of my body? As for the linesmen I said I wish him the worst - I was having in mind not being allowed to ref any time soon.

As for slagging the players. I think of the internet forums as a place that fills a lot of functions. Predominantly entertaining informed debated and discussions, but sometimes I think of it as a valve to let out some steam. It is hard to see us go into such an important game and watch players who make more money in a month I do in a year miss out on sitter after sitter.

As for the insulting part I guess it's each to his own an'all. My perception is that it is ME who have had to put up with your superior tone telling any opposing poster he or she doesn't possess a tenth of your mighty knowledge. I'm not saying that's how it actually was, just how it struck me. Either way it takes two to tango as you probably know so here's me willing to slate the sheet clean by extending my apologies for anything I might have said that offended you. In the future I'm willing to bite the tounge for the sake of the atmosphere in this place, which I rate highly. I can't promise I won't let out some steam every know and then. I'll do me best.

that's fair enough, and  I appreciate your words and sentiment.

I too am prepared to wipe the slate clean.

It is very hard to forget the insults - edward and you have nasty tongues.  And truth be told, if you said some of these things to me, in real life, I would let fly with a haymaker.   My rule of thumb is that I never post  something online, that I would not be prepared to say to the person's face.   Online/anonymous insults are for kids.  Adults are (or should be) above that.

but this forum has always been a place where there was good honest debate, with no real bickering, and lots of humour and intelligence. 

and I would like that to return.  So let's discuss issues and get back to normality.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 06, 2012, 05:31:30 PM
Don't blaspheme Ray. Didn't you know we have the worst record in the history of this game? Didn't you know we have an inexperienced manager who couldn't win a game in League 2? I for one won't put it beyond us to win our next 4 homegames. Not saying it'll happen, just that it could. Next weekend we'll get trashed tho.

Actualy Martin, I was quite surprised by our position in that table. Of course it will change and hopefully upwards. As you probably know I prefer to look at things through optimistic eyes as I feel it serves no useful purpose to look through negative ones.

I can't change anything so I don't worry about our position. The players seem to have confidence in the manager unlike Man City and Spurs where mumurings of discontent have surfaced.

As for getting trashed at the weekend I don't think that will happen. We still have enough quality to not concede a cricket score and aren't arrogant enough to continue to attack when we're 2 or more behind like Manure did against City last season.

Que sera sera.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 06, 2012, 06:48:22 PM
LOL, Stevie at his worst!

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2BAst_Ho1-k/UJkcHTf2b-I/AAAAAAAABcU/IvZoT4cTSvE/s350/GERRARD.gif

Technical perfection, not a great idea though given the positioning
of everyone else on the pitch!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 06, 2012, 07:39:06 PM
.

It is very hard to forget the insults - edward and you have nasty tongues.  And truth be told, if you said some of these things to me, in real life, I would let fly with a haymaker.   My rule of thumb is that I never post  something online, that I would not be prepared to say to the person's face.   Online/anonymous insults are for kids.  Adults are (or should be) above that.

but this forum has always been a place where there was good honest debate, with no real bickering, and lots of humour and intelligence. 

and I would like that to return.  So let's discuss issues and get back to normality.

I'd have no problems saying the things I said online to you, to your face. Because I meant every single word.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 06, 2012, 08:45:54 PM
It really doesn't matter what any of us say in here, negative, positive or just downright neutral as it won't make  jot of diffrence to a single player or the manager. I somehow doubt they even know this place exists.

I actually like it when things get a bit tasty. It proves the depth of feeling we have for the club, and to me at least, there's no doubting the depth of love for this club every single one of us has. As we all have diffrent personalities, we all see things diffrently, that's not a bad thing. Between us all we'll be somewhere near being right about most things.

We'd make a good team, all of us together. There'd be a few cases of handbags, a few handshakes but no lack of spirit.

I'd rather we all gave our honest views and allow and ask that of eachother.

For one, I always admire Ray's optimism, partly because I can't help being brutally realistic. Good or bad reality is what it is, but sometimes it would be nice to smooth the sharp edges.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 06, 2012, 10:00:11 PM
I'd have no problems saying the things I said online to you, to your face. Because I meant every single word.

you're a hard man behind a keyboard.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 06, 2012, 10:08:38 PM
you're a hard man behind a keyboard.
I picture him like Rocky on the punchbag,
remorselessy tapping those keys to stay
as mean as he is  ;D

Pham there goes the return key!
and another!
the backspace jabs are landing now! 
Oooh the ctrl-alt-del combo!
 ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 06, 2012, 10:21:13 PM
I picture him like Rocky on the punchbag,
remorselessy tapping those keys to stay
as mean as he is  ;D

Pham there goes the return key!
and another!
the backspace jabs are landing now! 
Oooh the ctrl-alt-del combo!
 ;D

 :D

he's probably in upper-sixth, studying for his A Levels, and posts when his mum lets him use the laptop.



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 07, 2012, 01:37:57 PM
:D

he's probably in upper-sixth, studying for his A Levels, and posts when his mum lets him use the laptop.

No actually. I am a 31 year old male, who owns his own house in Cambridge and earns above £25k a year, but carry on.

If I am in upper-sixth as you say that would make me 17 or 18. I known Martinmarx since 2001 and have chatted to him on a regular basis since then on the old .tv boards and various forums, so that would mean I'd have been 6 or 7 in 2001. But yeah whatever you say.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 08, 2012, 12:48:05 PM
:D

he's probably in upper-sixth, studying for his A Levels, and posts when his mum lets him use the laptop.

You find, I presume, your ways mature, justified, funny, filled and spurred on by the sole intent of promoting a good in-forum climate? How generous of you and Ed.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 08, 2012, 02:04:45 PM
No actually. I am a 31 year old male, who owns his own house in Cambridge and earns above £25k a year, but carry on.

If I am in upper-sixth as you say that would make me 17 or 18. I known Martinmarx since 2001 and have chatted to him on a regular basis since then on the old .tv boards and various forums, so that would mean I'd have been 6 or 7 in 2001. But yeah whatever you say.

well then start behaving like a 31 year old.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 08, 2012, 02:10:36 PM
You find, I presume, your ways mature, justified, funny, filled and spurred on by the sole intent of promoting a good in-forum climate? How generous of you and Ed.

no, Martin, your buddy continues with the nastiness.  And I question his ability or motivation, to say such things to my face.

You and Edward have alienated yourselves in here.  Your efforts are apologising the other day, were most welcome.  And I responded in kind.  But you need to have a word with your mate, Edward.  He prefers to continue posting this poison.  And it ruins the group.    The vast majority of us in here want to post about the issues and have some fun.  Get onside.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 08, 2012, 05:34:05 PM
Says someone who has given Rodgers no leeway at all since his arrival. If there is any poison spewing, it is from you.

So to you I say fork off.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 08, 2012, 09:17:02 PM
Says someone who has given Rodgers no leeway at all since his arrival. If there is any poison spewing, it is from you.

So to you I say fork off.

why not change the record, and stop with the personal abuse.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 08, 2012, 09:28:24 PM
http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/forum/ff-football-forum/109601-early-thoughts-rodgers-47.html (http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/forum/ff-football-forum/109601-early-thoughts-rodgers-47.html)

Two thirds of the way down.



Having tossed the grenade, departs.  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 08, 2012, 10:03:14 PM
http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/forum/ff-football-forum/109601-early-thoughts-rodgers-47.html (http://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/forum/ff-football-forum/109601-early-thoughts-rodgers-47.html)

Two thirds of the way down.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7L3717CEAEl1Q5.jpg)

 :D :D :D :D :D

wish I;d thought of that one.

Great stuff, beautiful grenade.



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 08, 2012, 10:11:25 PM
It was always Rafa's favourite line out of the whole of Number of the Beast by Iron Maiden.

I think Montse wouldn't have liked it if he'd chosen "and I'll possess your body"
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on November 08, 2012, 11:00:01 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7L3717CEAEl1Q5.jpg)

 :D :D :D :D :D

wish I;d thought of that one.

Great stuff, beautiful grenade.

There will be trouble ahead......
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 08, 2012, 11:08:36 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7L3717CEAEl1Q5.jpg)

 :D :D :D :D :D

wish I;d thought of that one.

Great stuff, beautiful grenade.

It's just that helt won't be back. Only  a mentally drawed back person would think that's even theoretically possible. To Rafael it seems to be the inevitable truth. Tools.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 08, 2012, 11:31:14 PM
There will be trouble ahead......

....but while there's moonlight and music and love and romance............
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 08, 2012, 11:33:11 PM
It's just that helt won't be back. Only  a mentally drawed back person would think that's even theoretically possible. To Rafael it seems to be the inevitable truth. Tools.

 :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 08, 2012, 11:38:16 PM
It was always Rafa's favourite line out of the whole of Number of the Beast by Iron Maiden.

I think Montse wouldn't have liked it if he'd chosen "and I'll possess your body"

 ;D

apparently, reading another source tonight, the channels of communication between our owners and Rafa, have always been kept open.

if Brendan continues to flounder, then our owners and Rafa can strike a new deal.





Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 08, 2012, 11:40:00 PM
There will be trouble ahead......

 :D

better get the storm shutters up, Martin's head will implode if his nemesis (Rafa) is reinstated.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 08, 2012, 11:42:13 PM
It's just that helt won't be back. Only  a mentally drawed back person would think that's even theoretically possible. To Rafael it seems to be the inevitable truth. Tools.

come over to the dark side, Martin.

You know it makes sense.

Drinketh from Rafael's cup.  Go on. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 08, 2012, 11:45:54 PM
It's just that helt won't be back. Only  a mentally drawed back person would think that's even theoretically possible. To Rafael it seems to be the inevitable truth. Tools.
Ok whatever.

However, in his first season in charge Rafa, without making much progress in the
league, reached two finals, winning the biggest of 'em all.

Last season we reached two finals, winning one of them.

SAF was a serial collector of silverware prior to his arrival at OT

This is LFC, sooner or later a talent for winning silverware is required!

I don't know why you sneer at posters for being somewhat underwhelmed
by the appointment of a coach who's only won the SFA cup? I don't know
why you object, given this pedigree, to our suspicions of giving him carte
blanche to do whatever he likes with one of the greatest sporting institutions
in the world? I have no idea at what point our goals for the season became
the January transfer window?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 09, 2012, 12:00:27 AM
no, Martin, your buddy continues with the nastiness.  And I question his ability or motivation, to say such things to my face.

You and Edward have alienated yourselves in here.  Your efforts are apologising the other day, were most welcome.  And I responded in kind.  But you need to have a word with your mate, Edward.  He prefers to continue posting this poison.  And it ruins the group. The vast majority of us in here want to post about the issues and have some fun.  Get onside.

But I am onside, my friend. I just don't like the way you're going about another member of this board. I haven't backed down from my apologies just because I ask you to behave maturely and constructively in here (only the hardcore Stalinist in you would think otherwise). Your rants about fighting it out man to man becomes, at best, tedious given you're in Panama if I remember correctly meaning it'll never be an option either way. And that's irrespective of anyone's opinion of engaging in a  physical fight with a member of your own tribe. You seem to be quick on jumping on and pointing at other people's shortcomings. That's fair enough in my book as long as you're willing to have a hard look inward and ask yourself in what way or capacity you contribute to this place being an island of intellectual integrity surrounded by an ocean of ignorance. That, however, you sadly had me believe you're not inclined or motivated to. Why that is only you can answer. You're better than this and I think you know it.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 09, 2012, 12:11:19 AM
I don't know why you sneer at posters for being somewhat underwhelmed
by the appointment of a coach who's only won the SFA cup? I don't know
why you object, given this pedigree, to our suspicions of giving him carte
blanche to do whatever he likes with one of the greatest sporting institutions
in the world? I have no idea at what point our goals for the season became
the January transfer window?

You got 3 questions. I only have one: Why is it so difficult to support the manager of the club you deem "one of the greatest sporting institution in the World"?

You seem to end up in the following dilemma: Either we have a manager who won it all and who'd win the League for us in no time provided he got money we don't have, or you take every fukcing chance to p**s, belittle, ridicule and spout at the manger we actually have in Place. Question is who you suppor and why. There used to be a name for kiddies like you - gloryhunters who only sing when they're winning. Ye'r a fake the way I see it. Sorry. I know I'll larf at you inside 24 months.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 09, 2012, 12:14:33 AM
But I am onside, my friend. I just don't like the way you're going about another member of this board. I haven't backed down from my apologies just because I ask you to behave maturely and constructively in here (only the hardcore Stalinist in you would think otherwise). Your rants about fighting it out man to man becomes, at best, tedious given you're in Panama if I remember correctly meaning it'll never be an option either way. And that's irrespective of anyone's opinion of engaging in a  physical fight with a member of your own tribe. You seem to be quick on jumping on and pointing at other people's shortcomings. That's fair enough in my book as long as you're willing to have a hard look inward and ask yourself in what way or capacity you contribute to this place being an island of intellectual integrity surrounded by an ocean of ignorance. That, however, you sadly had me believe you're not inclined or motivated to. Why that is only you can answer. You're better than this and I think you know it.

martin, you and edward have painted yourselves into a corner, by defending the indefensable, using much personal abuse.

we all are entitled to opinions, and to have the chance to share them....the problems start to occur when you (and your mate, Edward) continually play the man, and not the ball.

why not stick to discussing the issues and end the nastiness.  I know when you;re drunk, you always go over the top.  Most of us enjoy a glass of shandy or wine, but let's leave the nastiness outside the door.


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 09, 2012, 12:18:17 AM
You got 3 questions. I only have one: Why is it so difficult to support the manager of the club you deem "one of the greatest sporting institution in the World"?

You seem to end up in the following dilemma: Either we have a manager who won it all and who'd win the League for us in no time provided he got money we don't have, or you take every fukcing chance to p**s, belittle, ridicule and spout at the manger we actually have in Place. Question is who you suppor and why. There used to be a name for kiddies like you - gloryhunters who only sing when they're winning. Ye'r a fake the way I see it. Sorry. I know I'll larf at you inside 24 months.

sorry, but it sounds like you're on the shandy again, Martin.

in a forum, we are all entitled to share our views.  Nothing is black or white.  All managers and players have their pros and cons.  Thus, we discuss these issues.  We are not in a church or cult, where we worship without question.

I remember last weekend, you firing loads of abuse at our players, notably John Shelvey.



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 09, 2012, 12:23:03 AM
You seem to end up in the following dilemma: Either we have a manager who won it all and who'd win the League for us in no time provided he got money we don't have, or you take every fukcing chance to p**s, belittle, ridicule and spout at the manger we actually have in Place. Question is who you suppor and why. There used to be a name for kiddies like you - gloryhunters who only sing when they're winning. Ye'r a fake the way I see it. Sorry. I know I'll larf at you inside 24 months.
Here we go.

I tell you solemnly that LFC by definition are glory hunters. That is why we exist.

There are standards. Perhaps you should go back and listen to our great managers of the past.

Of course I'm terribly sorry if having standards and demanding the best for the club is
somehow out of kilter with your ideas that Roy Hodgson was the ideal man for the job.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 09, 2012, 08:56:24 AM
in a forum, we are all entitled to share our views.  Nothing is black or white.  All managers and players have their pros and cons.  Thus, we discuss these issues.  We are not in a church or cult, where we worship without question.

I remember last weekend, you firing loads of abuse at our players, notably John Shelvey.

Your strategy of making yourself the victim is at best tedious, mate. I don't question your right to have an opinion. That's a totally different discussion. Over the years I've come to concluded it's always those who doesn't have the arguments on their side that feel a need to play the "you-have-no-right-to-guestion-my-right-to-have-an-opinion"-card.

I don't know if questioning a player's inclusion in the first team based on his ineptness costing us 3 points in a vital game equals abuse. In your twisted world it seems to be the case. And you talk to me taking the high moral ground using words such as paint, corner, etc. Priceless that. ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 09, 2012, 10:27:44 AM
Your strategy of making yourself the victim is at best tedious, mate. I don't question your right to have an opinion. That's a totally different discussion. Over the years I've come to concluded it's always those who doesn't have the arguments on their side that feel a need to play the "you-have-no-right-to-guestion-my-right-to-have-an-opinion"-card.

I don't know if questioning a player's inclusion in the first team based on his ineptness costing us 3 points in a vital game equals abuse. In your twisted world it seems to be the case. And you talk to me taking the high moral ground using words such as paint, corner, etc. Priceless that. ;D

playing the victim?   you and your mate, edward, have been constantly breaking the rules of the forum....the same rules that you signed up under.   If there was a moderator, you'd be on a yellow card (or worse) before now....and your mate would have long since been thrown out of the forum.  Personal abuse of other forum users, and wishing death on others, is a no-no.

And you criticising players (like Shelvey) is not personal abuse - the type that is against any rules.  So why are you deliberately mixing these issues up.  No, I was highlighting the fact that you complain about others whining and not getting behind the team, when you yourself are one of the biggest whiners in this place.

And you say that I have no arguments on my side.  On the contrary, if you look back to the summer, I questioned Rodgers appointment from day one, and predicted we would have a woeful start to the season.  I made my points, and argued them consistently.

You on the otherhand, have painted yourself into a corner.  And now, rather than showing humility and remorse (for the nastiness), have nowhere to go.


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 09, 2012, 12:17:08 PM
(http://theresapointintheresomewhere.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/troll11.jpg)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 09, 2012, 01:36:13 PM
If I was a moderator I'd have banned your sorry ass too Dude.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 09, 2012, 01:40:44 PM
No banning needed. This isn't even a soft breeze compared to how it used to be on the offal back in the day.

We all need to take a step back and ask why we come here.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on November 09, 2012, 02:22:45 PM
(http://theresapointintheresomewhere.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/troll11.jpg)

I wouldn't mess with this guy...he looks like he could abduct you, drag you down to his cellar and eat your liver with a nice bottle of Chianti and some fava beans...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on November 09, 2012, 02:26:16 PM
No banning needed. This isn't even a soft breeze compared to how it used to be on the offal back in the day.

We all need to take a step back and ask why we come here.

I come here to talk about something i passionately believe in and love ...

and oh yes...try to wind up Martin!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 09, 2012, 02:42:01 PM
I come here to talk about something i passionately believe in and love ...

and oh yes...try to wind up Martin!

 :D

the mere mention of the anti-christ's name (rafa) sets the scandinavian off, every time.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 09, 2012, 09:01:52 PM
(http://theresapointintheresomewhere.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/troll11.jpg)

Never trust anyone who has wall boarding. You never know what (or who) they're hiding behind it.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 10, 2012, 05:12:13 PM
Geez, looking at the table  :(

I'm not even going to say that we need to win at the Bridge,
it's more than that we need to go there and fight for our lives
(i know BR uses that expression).

Big test for everyone!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 11, 2012, 03:09:28 PM
Liverpool FC ‏@LFC
Confirmed #LFC team v #CFC: Jones, Johnson, Enrique, Agger, Carragher, Wisdom, Allen, Gerrard, Sahin, Suarez, Sterling.

Liverpool FC ‏@LFC
Confirmed #LFC subs: Gulacsi, Cole, Assaidi, Henderson, Coates, Downing, Suso.

3-5-2.

No Skrtel plus Carra. I mean we were going to lose today no matter who we play, but now we are going to get tonked. 3-0 or 4-0 to chelsea.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 11, 2012, 03:18:55 PM
Chelsea team:-


Chelsea team:- Cech; Bertrand, Terry, Ivanovic, Azpilicueta; Mikel, Ramires; Oscar, Mata, Hazard; Torres

Oscar, Mata and Hazard are going to tear us a new arsehole.

Honestly think we are going to get really humbled today and shown up our threadbare team/squad. Won't make easy viewing.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 11, 2012, 03:33:20 PM
Honestly think we are going to get really humbled today and shown up our threadbare team/squad. Won't make easy viewing.
Dunno, we got 5 defenders on the pitch.

I just wonder how he plans to introduce the subs.
It appears to be 3-5-2. There's a plan A, wonder
what plan B is...looking at the bench  ::)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 11, 2012, 04:00:46 PM
I mean we were going to lose today no matter who we play, but now we are going to get tonked. 3-0 or 4-0 to chelsea.

Honestly think we are going to get really humbled today and shown up our threadbare team/squad. Won't make easy viewing.

cheer up.

we made big sacrifices to be well rested up for today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrLkTZrPZA4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrLkTZrPZA4)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 11, 2012, 04:42:51 PM
Thankfully we did otherwise without Suarez it will be 5-0 or 6-0. With him it'll be 3-0 or 4-0.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 11, 2012, 04:54:12 PM
Negativity creeping in. How about let's not judge until the game's over.

1-0, hardly the predicted route so far and Chelsea are hardly a recent nemesis.

Anyone know why Skrtel is absent?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 11, 2012, 04:54:57 PM
Tes Rodgers said Skrtel had a virus so that's he is out.

Pretty toothless on the whole as soon as they come at us the back three look totally lost, they counter us and pretty much every time they look like they could do something, Sahin has done nothing and Enrique just slows down play ever time he gets the ball.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 11, 2012, 04:55:49 PM
Too bad we made that horrible mistake to gift them the goal (tho Webb the horrible cad helped them). Sad to see us lack passion and fighting spirit. We're not there really. Take off Sterling for anyone and move to 4-3-3 or 4-4-2. Chelsea's much more there for the taking than I though prior to the game.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 11, 2012, 05:08:22 PM
Martin we need Sterling's pace. We offer no penetration at all in that first half, so we need to keep him on. I'd have bring on Suso for Enrique. Put Sterling on the left and Gerrard up front with Suarez.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 11, 2012, 05:14:53 PM
they counter us and pretty much every time they look like they could do something

That seems to be an issue we've had all season. Too many times teams have been able counter and look dangerous.

Not sure as yet whether it's the system or the level of adaptation to the system that is the problem.


Thanks for the info about Skrtel.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 11, 2012, 05:18:47 PM
My feeling is that at this early stage in the process is that the manager could do with some experienced help, an old head to confer with and seek advice from. Asking for help or advice is not a sign of weakness. Not doing so, is.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 11, 2012, 05:20:44 PM
Excellent save from Jones. He's grown in confidence since getting his run in the team and credit to him for that.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 11, 2012, 05:33:43 PM
from the Guardian's live coverage of the game.

"The Sky graphic has just revealed that Liverpool have not had a single attempt at goal on target," says Simon McMahon. "They do know that the point of playing football is to score goals, right? At this rate they'll be lucky to get nil." What are you on about? Think of the possession! It's death by football.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 11, 2012, 05:34:48 PM
suarez!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 11, 2012, 05:55:30 PM
Anyone but Enrique.  :(
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 11, 2012, 05:58:28 PM
Still we battled well in the 2nd half and I am proud of their performance in the 2nd half. We did well to get back into the game.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 11, 2012, 05:59:48 PM
1-1 away to the European Champions. We'll have far worse results this season. 6 games unbeaten. We have to start from somewhere and build a foundation, 6 underbeaten is as good a place to start as any.

Interesting how well West Ham are doing. Experience? The virtues of which can never be over extolled.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 11, 2012, 06:02:32 PM
Still we battled well in the 2nd half and I am proud of their performance in the 2nd half. We did well to get back into the game.

Credit to the manager for his use of substitutions. We didn't look as far away from them in the second half. A long way to go, two thirds of the league campaign to go. Now we need to start and build on this and kick on, and start turning 1 point into 3. Do we have that next gear in us? Stay tuned and find out.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 11, 2012, 06:03:07 PM
chelsea will be kicking themselves.  They bossed large parts of the game and should have built upon their goal.

Suarez is invaluable to us, as is the pace of Sterling.   

I was totally depressed watching our midfield.  Allen is out of his depth.

we snatched a point today.  I am off to open my red wine and have a nice warm bath.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 11, 2012, 06:14:47 PM
Mentioned allen but not Sahin and Gerrard?

Allen was definitely poor in the first half in 352, but in the second half in 433 Allen was his usual self. No coincidence we started to control the game when we were in a 433 with  the 3 in midfield (inc. Allen) controlled the game.

Out of his depth my bottom.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 11, 2012, 06:17:38 PM
Unbeaten in 6. Gerrard doesn't take a corner and Carra flicks on Barnes-esque for Suarez to nod in. Tes, didn't I say we needed to drop Gerrard for corners? And Jamie must have been watching Barnes at corners!

Should have won it at the end. Predictions of 3-0, 4-0 were silly. We're better than that.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 11, 2012, 06:31:11 PM
Mentioned allen but not Sahin and Gerrard?

Allen was definitely poor in the first half in 352, but in the second half in 433 Allen was his usual self. No coincidence we started to control the game when we were in a 433 with  the 3 in midfield (inc. Allen) controlled the game.

Out of his depth my bottom.

Chelsea bossed us when we had 5 in midfield.  Indeed they bossed large parts of the game, but just couldn;t get the second goal.

and to answer your initial point, here's my earlier quote: "I was totally depressed watching our midfield."

it's a point which we have to be thankful for.  You didn;t expect much from today's game, nor did I.  We have to be grateful.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 11, 2012, 07:10:35 PM
I suppose Brendan chose a cautious approch to this game and that's fair enough. I'm not as forgiving for him chosing to do that from a 3-5-2 formation. Maybe Skrtl's absence made it hard for him to play with only 2 in the center of which one is Carra. As Edward said our midfield got better in the second half and cred to Suso for being so incredibly poor with his first 4-5 to get it right and help us get back into the game.

In contrast to Tes I found Enrique having his best game of the season. Sure, he misfired a lot and wasted a couple of passes here and there, but he was never out of position and he ran his socks off both ways so cred to him, especially as he almost got a winner for us at the end.

We lost to many due to an extremly doubtful peno, City we drew due to a silly mistake, Everton got a Point courtesy of a substandard linesmen, Chelsea only created chances from our mistakes. All in all it ain't that bad after all. Once we strengthen the squad I'm sure we'll improve quickly and vastly resultwise.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 11, 2012, 07:22:40 PM
Martin, that's the point, there is no 'only' about mistakes, especially when they lead to goals. Poor officiating we can do nothing about and that's completely out of our hands, anything else is down to us and we have a say in it.

I only meant anybody but Enrique when it was he the ball fell to in the area. It was a specific point about a specific moment in the game. I made no other reference to any aspect of his performance at any point in the game. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 11, 2012, 07:40:39 PM
still, we mustn't grumble.

one point closer to the magic 40.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 11, 2012, 08:44:44 PM
Maybe BR is taking the play the kids thing too far!  ;D

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/11/11/1352650905725/Chelsea-v-Liverpool---Pre-003.jpg)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 11, 2012, 08:53:15 PM
carra and stevie G's hats look pretty cool.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 11, 2012, 09:13:53 PM
carra and stevie G's hats look pretty cool.

And here was I thinking it was Johnson to the right.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 11, 2012, 09:14:18 PM
carra and stevie G's hats look pretty cool.

Could prove problematical in a heavy downpour. I wonder how many pints of liquid they hold.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 11, 2012, 10:08:57 PM
And here was I thinking it was Johnson to the right.

 ;D

might be Johnson.

tell you what though, I reckon that young red, in the picture, looks like Suarez. 

In the Topper (kid's comic from the 70s), there was a column called Danny's Tranny.  I reckon Danny has zapped Suarez down to size.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 11, 2012, 10:10:43 PM
Could prove problematical in a heavy downpour. I wonder how many pints of liquid they hold.

would need to see if there was any correlation in Rafa's player performance data - re if Carra is any slower during rainy games.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 11, 2012, 10:18:10 PM
would need to see if there was any correlation in Rafa's player performance data - re if Carra is any slower during rainy games.

Test his boots and check how porous they are. And those damn fangled modern fabrics the socks are made of don't hold any liquid so it would al be swilling around in his boots. Think of how a half full washing up bowl becomes unwieldy, it's no wonder Carra couldn't control his hoofing. He didn't have proper control of his feet. Once the momentum of the swilling water in his boots got going it would be like trying to putt with a wrecking ball.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 12, 2012, 12:46:53 PM
Test his boots and check how porous they are. And those damn fangled modern fabrics the socks are made of don't hold any liquid so it would al be swilling around in his boots. Think of how a half full washing up bowl becomes unwieldy, it's no wonder Carra couldn't control his hoofing. He didn't have proper control of his feet. Once the momentum of the swilling water in his boots got going it would be like trying to putt with a wrecking ball.

if we could only design hi-tec boots for carra, with jets at the back of them, then:

1) we could get rid of the excess water that builds up on rainy days (causing him to slow up, and wobble, during wet days)

2) redistribute the water, via the jets at the rear of the boots, in engine type fashion, via a spray, thus making him ultra-fast.   It would appear like he was on jet-skis......even the fastest opponent could not get away from super-car
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 12, 2012, 01:15:12 PM
 ;D


You'd be forgiven for thinking this discussion got a tad OT. On the other hand it's an indication we're all happy with the result if not the performance. But then again, that's a nice change as it's usually the other way round.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 12, 2012, 02:06:22 PM
Martin, Dude and I have always had a tendency to take threads off at a weird tangent. We both have the pythonesque sense of humour.

Admittedly it's a bit of fun at the expense of one of our players but that's the whole, no malice intended.

None of us needs to go all radical on another member of the forum.

It's good a to get a bit of fun back into this place and on that we both agree.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 12, 2012, 03:59:06 PM
"The reality is we're a long way off in the league," said Rodgers. "We finished eighth last year. If we can improve on that, it'll be fantastic for us.

"That's the reality of where Liverpool are I'm afraid. But our young players will get better and better."

Maybe I'm just a little old school but fantastic?? It would be fantastic??

Is that fantastic as in  Wonderful or superb; remarkable.

Hmmm...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 12, 2012, 04:49:39 PM
"The reality is we're a long way off in the league," said Rodgers. "We finished eighth last year. If we can improve on that, it'll be fantastic for us.

"That's the reality of where Liverpool are I'm afraid. But our young players will get better and better."

Maybe I'm just a little old school but fantastic?? It would be fantastic??

Is that fantastic as in  Wonderful or superb; remarkable.

Hmmm...

As in "super, smashing, great". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umA1YevBTSI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umA1YevBTSI&feature=related)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 12, 2012, 04:51:18 PM
Ed, I wouldn't take his quotes too literally. He like that word just as he likes "okay" which he must have used dozens of times during Being:Liverpool when adddressing the players pre-match. We all have our little foibles!  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 12, 2012, 04:52:31 PM
An interesting comparison to where we were after 11 games over the last 4 seasons:

12/13:
13. Liverpool 11 2 6 3 14-16 12p

11/12:
6. Liverpool 11 5 4 2 14-10 19p

10/11:
9. Liverpool 11 4 3 4 12-14 15p

09/10:
6. Liverpool 11 6 0 5 25-16 18p
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 12, 2012, 05:05:31 PM
Ed, I wouldn't take his quotes too literally. He like that word just as he likes "okay" which he must have used dozens of times during Being:Liverpool when adddressing the players pre-match. We all have our little foibles!  ;D
lol, maybe  ;D

See I love straight-talking and I remember RH went down a similar route
in terms of talking the club down 'til it reached the point where we'd be
lucky to get a point off the mighty Wolves at home.

I also noted last season Kenny develop a penchant for the word fantastic.

Personally, I don't think it would be fantastic to finish above 8th, the league
only has 20 teams?

Anyway we'll leave that aside, before Marx and 224 pile in and start kicking up.

However, the vibe I'm picking up early November with incessant talk about the
January transfer window, young players and Jamie Carragher aint necessarily filling
me with confidence is all.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 12, 2012, 05:13:50 PM
James Lawton begs to differ, I don't with who, but he does  ;D :

James Lawton: Brendan Rodgers calls classic tune for Liverpool

Monday, 12 November 2012




The weekend was supposed to be about indomitable United, defiant City and a Chelsea team winning back at least a little of the authority you associate with European champions. It was shaping up as a re-statement of some pretty well established power.

Yet who is so unmindful of those currents in football that spring up with arresting force on the most unlikely of occasions that they could ignore the significance of Liverpool's latest declaration that they, too, are on the mend?

It may be a long job and one ultimately decided by the willingness of their American management to back seriously the vision and the nerve of their young manager Brendan Rodgers, but in the meantime there is no reason to ignore the force of his team's recovery at Stamford Bridge yesterday. For some time Rodgers, despite a run of unbeaten Premier League games, seemed to be still locked in impossible odds against a team for whom the midfield axis of Juan Mata, Oscar, Eden Hazard and Ramires is promising new levels of superior touch and coherence. But then something remarkable happened. Liverpool, buoyed by another strike from – who else? – Luis Suarez, not only started to play immeasurably better football; they also looked distinctly like, well, Liverpool.

A Liverpool from a somewhat different age, that is. A Liverpool who could create authentic momentum and who on this day, which had for some time threatened a discouraging descent into futility, had more than the extraordinary Suarez to conjure a little belief in a brighter future.

Steven Gerrard, passing milestones of longevity as he anticipates his arrival in England's club of centurion cap winners, found again moments of striking influence. Raheem Sterling's startling precocity has rarely looked so securely moored to a remarkably old head. Jose Enrique supplied width and craft as the course of the match switched sharply in Liverpool's direction – and if this was just possibly a crossroads for the Rodgers project, who better bravely to signpost new possibilities than the near superannuated hero Jamie Carragher?

His flick on from the impressive substitute Suso's corner re-lit some old Liverpool fire as Suarez detached himself utterly from the Chelsea cover. As a piece of gnarled but brilliantly marshalled old pro savvy it almost rivalled the supreme example provided by John Terry.

Extraordinary, isn't it, this ability of Terry and Suarez so regularly to produce moments which, for some time at least, put on hold on the contortions normally involved in any positive assessment of their contributions to English football.

Their redemption is the one that often persuades their managers to pull down a veil on the worst of their excesses. Kenny Dalglish carried himself to managerial oblivion partly because of his unshakeable loyalty to the controversial, and sometimes appalling, Uruguayan, and if Roberto Di Matteo is at all ambivalent about Terry's place in Chelsea's future it is doubtful if the Spanish Inquisition could have persuaded him to say an unkind word about the club's captain.

It is hardly a mystery – not when Terry comes back from his four-match ban and Di Matteo's decision to leave him out of last week's ordeal of fire against Shakhtar Donetsk with a predatory masterpiece at a corner. It was as much as anything a professional mugging. Branislav Ivanovic tied up Daniel Agger so comprehensively he failed only to apply handcuffs, then Terry stole into the empty space to send a superb header past Brad Jones in the Liverpool goal.

Among the Chelsea faithful there was, inevitably, adoration which was compounded when he was carried off the field after a gut-wrenching collision with Suarez. There, in a moment, was a physical expression of all kinds of football fear and loathing – and dogged admiration for the best qualities of these players: Terry, at first howling with pain, then stretching out a knee that there was reason at first to fear had been shattered, and Suarez, unequivocally innocent in this affair, standing over him with his face a picture of, if not compassion, then genuine concern.

With Gary Cahill in Terry's place and the Chelsea midfielders beginning to ripple pleasingly, it seemed like nothing more than a re-assertion of that Premier League power complex, with Chelsea, surely, moving to within a point of United after the victorious escape from a punishing sentence against Shakhtar.

Yet Rodgers was not easily discouraged. He sent on the vibrant young Spaniard Suso, re-shaped his back-five formation, and Liverpool were once against impressively competitive. Suarez scored his sixth goal in six Premier League games and suddenly he found sources of unusual support.

Rodgers warmly applauded his players at the end, as well he might have done. He is a young manager engaging in a huge task of renewal – and he is doing it extremely well.


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/james-lawton/james-lawton-brendan-rodgers-calls-classic-tune-for-liverpool-16236789.html (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/james-lawton/james-lawton-brendan-rodgers-calls-classic-tune-for-liverpool-16236789.html)

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 12, 2012, 05:25:14 PM
See I love straight-talking and I remember RH went down a similar route
in terms of talking the club down 'til it reached the point where we'd be
lucky to get a point off the mighty Wolves at home.
Yes, that was appalling but I don't think you can compare BR's comment to Hodgson's.

Quote
I also noted last season Kenny develop a penchant for the word fantastic.
Almost as much as "In any way, shape or form".  :D

Quote
Personally, I don't think it would be fantastic to finish above 8th, the league
only has 20 teams?
Perhaps he's playing the same mind games as Mancini did in the closing weeks of last season when he repeatedly said they had no chance of winning the title. It takes the pressure off the players. Canny move, maybe.

Quote
However, the vibe I'm picking up early November with incessant talk about the
January transfer window, young players and Jamie Carragher aint necessarily filling
me with confidence is all.

In fairness other team's supporters are doing it too for their club. Carragher had his best game for ages considering he played 90 mins midweek. He must have been knackered!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 12, 2012, 05:51:42 PM
Almost as much as "In any way, shape or form".  :D
Good one!  ;D

It is true that there is another argument that can be put forward on
his behalf. Personally, I thought we were outclassed for at least 60
minutes by the Blues (who had a tough midweek fixture as opposed
to us resting 7?), granted the team showed character to get back into
it but i think in the chances department it was even stevens in the
last 20 minutes arguably with a bit more momentum from us in the
last 10.

In other words I'm certainly not getting carried away like Winter et al.,

Whether he understands it or not, this period is less about BR blooding
young players and more about the fans blooding a new manager.

Btw, Alan Hansen's demeanour concerning LFC on MOTD 2 last night was priceless.

Strange programme MOTD2 they had some guy from a Village People's tribute
act on the panel. Suppose it's the only goal he's likely to achieve this season  ;D

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XZoOj0XaWhA/UKCev8WO31I/AAAAAAAABwE/4LeQavekjMk/s630/Screen+Shot+2012-11-12+at+8.58.56+AM.png)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 12, 2012, 06:44:53 PM
An interesting comparison to where we were after 11 games over the last 4 seasons:

12/13:
13. Liverpool 11 2 6 3 14-16 12p

11/12:
6. Liverpool 11 5 4 2 14-10 19p

10/11:
9. Liverpool 11 4 3 4 12-14 15p

09/10:
6. Liverpool 11 6 0 5 25-16 18p

interesting data.

3 years ago, in these first 11 games of the season, we were scoring goals, and prepared to go for it......no half measures.

in the subsequent years, we stopped scoring goals, and that is the core of the problem (allied to factors like team balance, transfer activity and tactical expertise).   

As well as jettisoning top players, like kuyt, maxi, bellamy, moreless, and desayun......we have failed to bring in equal replacements.  We bring in forwards who cannot score goals, and the same is true of new midfield acquisitions.  e.g. this past summer, I kept scratching my head at the Allen transfer.  Did we relaly need another non-scoring midfielder at Anfield.  I was perplexed (never mind his tiny height and weight).

The club has been on a fast downward spiral these past three seasons.    There is no-one of sufficient expertise at Anfield to arrest her decline.  :(
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 12, 2012, 06:48:12 PM
Btw, Alan Hansen's demeanour concerning LFC on MOTD 2 last night was priceless.


(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XZoOj0XaWhA/UKCev8WO31I/AAAAAAAABwE/4LeQavekjMk/s630/Screen+Shot+2012-11-12+at+8.58.56+AM.png)

what did Hansen say, Ed?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 12, 2012, 07:07:40 PM
what did Hansen say, Ed?
In general I thought his delivery was through gritted teeth
on the first half performance (my impression)

"25 passes back to the same bit"

But it's his bit on Andy Carroll in the review of the Newcastle vs West Ham game:

"If I was anything to do with Liverpool he'd still be in my side"


You can find it here (scroll down the page to the video section they do all the MOTD stuff!):

http://mysoccerplace.net/

Anyway, I find it much easier to listen to Alan Hansen on the subject of LFC
then the gaffer is all.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 12, 2012, 07:12:24 PM
In general I thought his delivery was through gritted teeth
on the first half performance (my impression)

It's well known he has false teeth. May have overdone it on the fixodent.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 12, 2012, 07:31:56 PM
3 years ago, in these first 11 games of the season, we were scoring goals, and prepared to go for it......no half measures.

Out of this seasons stats, 2 wins and a negative goal difference stand out. We need to quickly improve our home form. Our away form, all things considered is quite impressive.

On thing I will say in the manager's favour is that he's changed things for the better in the last two games. If we could get the tactics and formation right from the start we might to be on to something.

With his new found readiness to change things and his readiness to give young players a proper run, not just one game and then dismissal back to the academy, whilst keeping on playing the tried and failed is at least making this season more refreshing than last season and Hodgey's retro football.

For everybody's sake I hope he is backed to bring in a couple of attacking players in January and then it might be easier for him to put out the sort of team he'd prefer. Then it will be easier to judge what he can and can't do as a manager. I hope we don't go down the route of just a couple of youngsters and blame it on 'being the January window'. Agger, Skrtel and Suarez proves business can be done in January.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 12, 2012, 08:41:48 PM
It's well known he has false teeth. May have overdone it on the fixodent.
Hansen's got standards.

What I find annoying is the unqualified support received by BR from certain parts
of the fanbase and I'm not talking about our bunch (ASI, Marx & 224). On other
forums or newspaper comments there's a blind eye, deaf ear to anything negative,
like it was sacrilege or something.

I beg to differ and say quite rightly, imo, that just like the players at the club the gaffer
has to earn the right to wear the shirt. Saying again this weekend how intelligent the
fanbase is smacks of PR BS to me....I mean if they were so intelligent would you have
to keep reminding them in case they've forgotten the umpteenth mention of it?

I remain resolutely unimpressed until he does something that genuinely has an air of
LFC gaffer about it and to those who say it's my duty to support the manager I say
they are mistaken, if the manager can't handle the pressure, criticism, breaks easily (George
Entwistle) or doesn't have the courage of his convictions then he's not fit to be the manager.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 12, 2012, 08:49:32 PM
*dude puts on his bullet-proof vest, karki-camaflage and heads for nuclear-proof bunker*
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 12, 2012, 09:06:04 PM
Out of this seasons stats, 2 wins and a negative goal difference stand out. We need to quickly improve our home form. Our away form, all things considered is quite impressive.

On thing I will say in the manager's favour is that he's changed things for the better in the last two games. If we could get the tactics and formation right from the start we might to be on to something.

With his new found readiness to change things and his readiness to give young players a proper run, not just one game and then dismissal back to the academy, whilst keeping on playing the tried and failed is at least making this season more refreshing than last season and Hodgey's retro football.

For everybody's sake I hope he is backed to bring in a couple of attacking players in January and then it might be easier for him to put out the sort of team he'd prefer. Then it will be easier to judge what he can and can't do as a manager. I hope we don't go down the route of just a couple of youngsters and blame it on 'being the January window'. Agger, Skrtel and Suarez proves business can be done in January.

Sterling has been superb for a kid. 

But this progressive notion that we have in modern society, for giving kids a chance, is overplayed IMHO. Experience allied with youth is the key.  Like everything else in a team, it's all about balance.

And, for example, you look at our midfield, and it is (in my eyes) far too lightweight, and also offers few goals.  When we play lads like Allen, Suso and Sahin in the middle of the park, we are gonna get over-run.

But like you said in another post, the boss has to at some point find a balance that he is happy with, and then let that set of players gel and get more confident in that system. 

At the minute, he is busy chopping and changing things, trying to find a system that works, and a balance.  This is where a manager earns his corn.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 12, 2012, 09:19:55 PM
Sterling has been superb for a kid. 

But this progressive notion that we have in modern society, for giving kids a chance, is overplayed IMHO. Experience allied with youth is the key.  Like everything else in a team, it's all about balance.

And, for example, you look at our midfield, and it is (in my eyes) far too lightweight, and also offers few goals.  When we play lads like Allen, Suso and Sahin in the middle of the park, we are gonna get over-run.

But like you said in another post, the boss has to at some point find a balance that he is happy with, and then let that set of players gel and get more confident in that system. 

At the minute, he is busy chopping and changing things, trying to find a system that works, and a balance.  This is where a manager earns his corn.

Agree with all of that Dude. I think some of the changes are down to him trying to make sure some key players are protected from injury or tiredness later in the season, due to the threadbare squad.

It's alright FSG being happy with getting rid of bigger earners but we needed to lower the wage bill, not lower the wage bill by depleting squad numbers. Yes there were reasons for losing Maxi and Bellamy, but I'm sure Rodgers could have tried to keep Dirk (Dirk said it was down to a lack of appearances last season that he decided to leave) and why keep Cole? Apparently we turned down an offer from Spartak Moscow for him.
Dirk stays, Cole goes, wagebill reduced by the same amount, squad quality levels don't drop as far as they have and we keep one more senior player that has something to offer the young players coming through. Dirk'd movement would have create spaces that could have been utilised by others and by the manager's prefered style of play.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 12, 2012, 10:00:42 PM
Gerrard's been passed fit to play for England against Sweden, though why he needs to I just don't understand.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 12, 2012, 10:15:29 PM
It is true that there is another argument that can be put forward on
his behalf. Personally, I thought we were outclassed for at least 60
minutes by the Blues (who had a tough midweek fixture as opposed
to us resting 7?), granted the team showed character to get back into
it but i think in the chances department it was even stevens in the
last 20 minutes arguably with a bit more momentum from us in the
last 10.
Yup, I'll go along with that. But hen you consider the cost of the Chelsea midfield against ours then ours outperformed and their's underperformed. If Mata had scored to make it 2-0 before half-time I don't think we would have recovered but small things like that can make a big difference to teams confidence.

Quote
In other words I'm certainly not getting carried away like Winter et al.,
That article was over the top. But I can see improvements and fewer mistakes in defence. And Jones' performance in goal has merited his continued presence. It will give Pepe something to think about.

Quote
Whether he understands it or not, this period is less about BR blooding
young players and more about the fans blooding a new manager.
In fairness I've seen little criticism of him in the press. They seem to recognise what he's trying to achieve and are prepared to give him time. They seem to have switched to Wenger instead.

Quote
Btw, Alan Hansen's demeanour concerning LFC on MOTD 2 last night was priceless.
Indeed. Definitely outside his comfort zone!

Quote
Strange programme MOTD2 they had some guy from a Village People's tribute
act on the panel. Suppose it's the only goal he's likely to achieve this season  ;D
:D Send him to the Blue Oyster Club!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 12, 2012, 10:20:53 PM
Send him to the Blue Oyster Club!

Is that where the Blue Oyster Cult used to meet on a Monday night?  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 12, 2012, 10:38:54 PM
Is that where the Blue Oyster Cult used to meet on a Monday night?  ;D
I'm sorry Tes but that means nothing to me.  :-[
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 12, 2012, 10:46:35 PM
Small things like that can make a big difference to teams confidence.
Good point! It'll be interesting to see if there's a bounce for the Wigan game.
We could see a reverse of what happened after Arsenal in February last season.
It's really only November that we need to get out of with some momentum.

And Jones' performance in goal has merited his continued presence. It will give Pepe something to think about.
MOTM, imo. Really like his attitude and his alertness to come off his line. Key player atm!

:D Send him to the Blue Oyster Club!
Sure he'd score plenty there  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 12, 2012, 11:04:45 PM
Ed,

In months to come we could look back at certain fixtures and say "that's the point at which things clicked". We don't know they will of course. We could stutter along for the rest of the season and never get into our stride. Injuries, or the lack of them, will have a major bearing on that.

So too will the owners attitude when BR comes calling for a cheque to be signed in January. I know they got their fingers burnt last season but if they're serious about getting us back to where we belong then risks have to be taken. He Who Dares and all that!

In the meantime they say the table never lies and here's the one based on the last 6 games... http://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/premierleague/form

A lot easier on the eye.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 14, 2012, 02:05:58 PM
Interesting vid of Henderson vs Northern Ireland U21.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpi1OqvC6H0

I also thought his performance against Anzhi in Moscow was
promising.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 14, 2012, 02:27:07 PM
Interesting vid of Henderson vs Northern Ireland U21.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpi1OqvC6H0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpi1OqvC6H0)

if those were the best bits, I'd definitely sell him!

 ;)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 14, 2012, 02:29:24 PM
In general I thought his delivery was through gritted teeth
on the first half performance (my impression)

"25 passes back to the same bit"

But it's his bit on Andy Carroll in the review of the Newcastle vs West Ham game:

"If I was anything to do with Liverpool he'd still be in my side"


You can find it here (scroll down the page to the video section they do all the MOTD stuff!):

http://mysoccerplace.net/ (http://mysoccerplace.net/)

Anyway, I find it much easier to listen to Alan Hansen on the subject of LFC
then the gaffer is all.

thanks for that great link, Ed.

I tried that previous day to  watch the Match of the Day clip.  But I got distracted by something else (I might have fallen asleep, twas late).  Gonna try and watch it today.

Great website.  Mucho gracious for the link.


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 14, 2012, 07:54:36 PM
if those were the best bits, I'd definitely sell him!

 ;)

Harsh, but funny.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 14, 2012, 08:56:06 PM
Just read this:

After having played 11 games last season, we had an average of 55.9% of possession. After 11 games this season, we have an average of 57.4% possession.

In terms of minutes with the ball, this means that we’ve had the ball roughly 15minutes longer so far this season than we had at the same point last season.

We have, however, scored exactly the same number of goals after 11 games this season as we had last – 14.

Combining time with the ball and goals scored, we can see that last season we were scoring a goal every 39 minutes in possession. This season we need a little longer with the ball to score, but not very much – a little over 40 minutes per goal. So, however ineffective we may be perceived to be with the ball this season, we were not doing very much better at the same point in 2011.

Where there is a big difference, however, is goals conceded. Last season, after 11 games, opposition teams were scoring 1 goal against us every 43 minutes that they had possession. This season, they only need the ball 26 minutes to score a goal.

The difference this season is much less our ability to score goals when we have the ball, and much more our ability to stop the opposition scoring when they win it back.


However:

Is this last year when we had Caroll, Maxi, Bellamy, Kuyt and Suarez that your on about? This year we have erm?

Does that mean we've actually improved then?
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 14, 2012, 09:55:29 PM
Congratulations to Gerrard for getting his 100th cap - now retire and leave Hodgey to inadvertently scuttle that particular stinking ship.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 14, 2012, 11:06:10 PM
looking at that data, Tes, it seems that for all the pansying about we are doing with the ball, with endless needless passes, back, sideways, through hoops, under bridges....for all that endless passing, we have only over one percent better possession levels than under Kenny!

in fact, with all the fannying about we are doing, we are now conceding soft goals at the back (which will always be a result of fannying about with the ball, at any level of football).

there, I have injected some much needed pessimism into things, Mr McCartney, lest this optimism thing would catch on.   ;)


Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 17, 2012, 01:17:46 AM
Point above Wigan in the table (Yey!)

& a whopping 3 points above them in the form table (note to ASI  :) ).

Will the internationals affect the players?

Presumably this is counteracted by the spirit BR has festered
among the group and momentum from the Chelsea game &
the moment our season turned for the better (when Mata
missed the sitter!).

Both managers (and arguably chairmen) with points to prove.

I see them scoring, I see us creating chances on the back of
being the home team. Suppose the result boils down to whether
we take our chances. Result kindof up in the air 2-2 draw!  :)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 17, 2012, 10:45:52 AM
Will the internationals affect the players?

That's the  big worry and probable explanation for us struggling to beat 'the fodder'.
It would be interesting to see a table of matches played after international breaks, who we played and how we fared, going back over 10 seasons.

We need to start winning at home otherwise it will become 'a mental thing' and Anfield will become our nemesis.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 17, 2012, 10:52:23 AM
we get a normal Saturday 3pm kick-off time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 17, 2012, 11:39:14 AM
we get a normal Saturday 3pm kick-off time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's so passe or pre Premier League/Sky generation.  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 17, 2012, 01:23:20 PM
That's so passe or pre Premier League/Sky generation.  ;D

BarnStoneworth United was my era   :D

http://youtu.be/S9KXrRUZqtw (http://youtu.be/S9KXrRUZqtw)
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: barticus on November 17, 2012, 06:09:11 PM
Great result....suarez is on fire at the mo! Would be nice to have Huntelaar there too...
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 17, 2012, 07:15:44 PM
Agreed Bart. Best performance of the season. The injury to Suso helped as Henderson played very well apparently.

Credit to Rogers. That's two games running he's made tactical changes and they've both worked. And Enrico played a blinder too. It's almost a given Suarez does it every game.

Let's hope the owners fund the Huntelaar move.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 17, 2012, 08:40:54 PM
Agreed Bart. Best performance of the season. The injury to Suso helped as Henderson played very well apparently.

Credit to Rogers. That's two games running he's made tactical changes and they've both worked. And Enrico played a blinder too. It's almost a given Suarez does it every game.

Let's hope the owners fund the Huntelaar move.

Suarez is a better all-round striker than Torres. If Atletico come sniffing if they sell Falcao to Chelsea, they can give us all the Falcao money or (at least) £60M. Enrique's equalled his Newcastle record in a season and a third, prolific.

Another excellent result for Steve Clarke. It just makes you wonder how little influence Dalglish let him have on team matters last season in comparison to his half season. I would how much better we'd be (at least defensively) if Clarke had stayed and become Rodgers' assistant.

It's good to see us with a positive goal difference also.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 17, 2012, 09:34:44 PM
Agreed Bart. Best performance of the season. The injury to Suso helped as Henderson played very well apparently.

Credit to Rogers. That's two games running he's made tactical changes and they've both worked. And Enrico played a blinder too. It's almost a given Suarez does it every game.

Let's hope the owners fund the Huntelaar move.


7 on the trot unbeaten, that's more like it. Anxious first half where we never really threatened and I was worried we'd end up with yet another 0-0 or 1-1 draw. Sterling did very well to capitalize on that sloppy pass to set up Suarez for an extremly well taken 1-0. Didn't understand Suso got injured, rather thought he was a waste of space. In any case that was one of Henderson's better performances in a red shirt. His impact was immidiate and lasted throughout the game. Also want to make a special mention for Enrique who looks to be back to his best. One brilliant assist and a well taken goal makes him my MOTM.

I wouldn't agree, however ASI, this was our best performance of the season. We were much better against both United and Citeh, I would even say Chelsea. Swansea and the Jews away next. If we can get maximum points from those games we'll be in for 4th with a shout come Chrimbo.

You do not go anywhere in life without experience. This team had absolutely no experience of winning before the season started, yet people demanded they win every game. Now that they start to get it you will also see a more  mature and *cough* *cough* balanced side develop.

Onwards, upward. Well done you Red Men!!!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 17, 2012, 09:45:31 PM
Suarez is one off his tally for the whole of last season and its only November.

Seems DUDE, that Rodgers has figured out how to get the best out of Suarez. Not bad from such a supposedly crappy manager eh DUDE.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 17, 2012, 09:48:36 PM
Liverpool - 15pts; Everton - 20pts, Spurs - 17pts, Arsenal - 19pts, Newcastle - 14pts.

In the next 10 games:

Everton have Arsenal, City, Spurs, Chelsea & Newcastle
Spurs have Arsenal, Liverpool and Everton
Arsenal have Spurs, Everton and Newcastle
Newcastle have City, United, Arsenal and Everton.

We have a real opportunity to close the gap on all these clubs and bring some respectability back to our ladder position.

It will also bring us into the January transfer window where hopefully we will have some momentum and reinforcements.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 17, 2012, 11:17:31 PM
Didn't understand Suso got injured, rather thought he was a waste of space.
 
You do not go anywhere in life without experience.


Which is exactly what Suso lacks, hence inconsistancy of performance. It's also more noticable in the technical players than in the 'grafters'.

Martin, show the same level of patience with our young, inexperienced players as you ask of us with our young, inexperienced manager.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 17, 2012, 11:21:02 PM
This team had absolutely no experience of winning before the season started, yet people demanded they win every game.

Slight exaggeration there, Martin, and you yourself have been rather damning when we haven't won particular matches. We can't win every game, you know, I know you know, and as someone once pointed out, people shouldn't demand that we do.  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 17, 2012, 11:26:30 PM
Suarez is one off his tally for the whole of last season and its only November.

Seems DUDE, that Rodgers has figured out how to get the best out of Suarez. Not bad from such a supposedly crappy manager eh DUDE.

The ceasefire lasted about the same time as the Syrian one.

So Dalglish was entirely to blame for Suarez's total last season? Maybe playing with players that weren't available to the previous manager has something to do with it and of course Suarez is a year older, more mature, more settled and more experienced within the PL. He's also had more time to suss out his opponents having had more experience of them.

No one man is entirely and completely responsible for anything, be it good or bad.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 18, 2012, 02:22:00 AM
The ceasefire lasted about the same time as the Syrian one.
I believe the Dude is massing troops and tanks on the border,
one rocket too far methinks  ;D

Anyway, we'll take them 3 points. I suppose expectations are so confused at the
club a home win is greeted with immediate talk of 4th  ::)

I thought the first half was rather even (given we're the home side).

Wigan had a player taken off with a broken leg and self-destructed 2 minutes
into the 2nd half. Fair play to us we mopped up.

There wasn't enough there to convince me that we now represent a threat in the league
(aint scored a goal in the last 15 minutes of a league game this season??), but there were
nevertheless some positives.

The lively if unorthodox presence of Enrique, I think the gaffer deserves credit for that one,
we now have energy on the wing with back-tracking capability! Seems to be popular with
his team-mates as well.

The introduction of Henderson gave us more grit in midfield, he appears imo to be relishing
his pressing and tackling work, is more mobile going forward and calling for the ball more often.
Slowly but surely...hopefully!

I think those two changes give us more balance in the sense that it's not all technicians,
there are now physical energetic players who are defense-aware to complement that!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 18, 2012, 09:33:46 AM

Which is exactly what Suso lacks, hence inconsistancy of performance. It's also more noticable in the technical players than in the 'grafters'.

Martin, show the same level of patience with our young, inexperienced players as you ask of us with our young, inexperienced manager.

But I do, I just thought that on the day it was the right decision to take him off. I can see Suso's undoubted talent and am very happy he's tied to the club as I can see him become a great player. He just had an off-day which every player's entitled to and I was merely commenting on this one game. Also happy to see Henderson and especially his attitude. Well impressed with that.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 18, 2012, 09:53:19 AM
Suarez is a better all-round striker than Torres. If Atletico come sniffing if they sell Falcao to Chelsea, they can give us all the Falcao money or (at least) £60M. Enrique's equalled his Newcastle record in a season and a third, prolific.
I'd agree with that. Torres is (was) an all-out striker whereas Suarez is more of a creator. After all, he was bought to provide for Torres. I wonder how that would have turned out. BR seems to have reinvented Enrique. More to come hopefully.

Quote
Another excellent result for Steve Clarke. It just makes you wonder how little influence Dalglish let him have on team matters last season in comparison to his half season. I would how much better we'd be (at least defensively) if Clarke had stayed and become Rodgers' assistant.
I'm sure we would be better defensively but I'll reserve judgement on Clarke until end of season. But he's certainly made a good start.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on November 18, 2012, 09:59:30 AM
7 on the trot unbeaten, that's more like it. Anxious first half where we never really threatened and I was worried we'd end up with yet another 0-0 or 1-1 draw. Sterling did very well to capitalize on that sloppy pass to set up Suarez for an extremly well taken 1-0.
It's hard to judge things when MoTD only shows the goals. But given Wigan have been a thorn in our side for a few seasons the result was doubly impressive. I thought Enrique's through pass for the second was superb.

Quote
Didn't understand Suso got injured, rather thought he was a waste of space.
Given it occurred in the first 30 mins who knows how he would have played had he stayed on. Many of them didn't do much in the first half.

Quote
In any case that was one of Henderson's better performances in a red shirt. His impact was immidiate and lasted throughout the game. Also want to make a special mention for Enrique who looks to be back to his best. One brilliant assist and a well taken goal makes him my MOTM.
From what I've read they both played very well. Makes for hard decisions with Lucas close to a return.

Quote
I wouldn't agree, however ASI, this was our best performance of the season. We were much better against both United and Citeh, I would even say Chelsea. Swansea and the Jews away next. If we can get maximum points from those games we'll be in for 4th with a shout come Chrimbo.
Given our recent results against Wigan I would say it was a totally unexpected result. And what other game have we had a 3 goal margin? Only 4th clean sheet of the season too.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 18, 2012, 10:16:32 AM
Hope Suarez can stay uninjured.  Another good day for the Uruguayan.

I was out of the house, thus did not catch the game.

The first half, according to all reports, was another worrisome torrid affair.  Many of the reports I have been reading in the papers suggest that Wigan's midfield bossed the centre.  That seems a common thing these days.  It is worrisome when one gets owned, on such a regular basis, like that at home. 

Wigan's awful injury, the lad with the broken leg, occurred.....and then we got our noses in front, in the second half, due to nutty defending.  And then as Wigan try to come forward and get something from the game, we exploit the gaps.  The usual way things play out in such circumstances.

This was a badly needed win.  We can now dream of a mid-table finish.  We are three points closer to the 40 point mark. 
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 18, 2012, 12:38:53 PM
8 points behind 4th.......
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 18, 2012, 06:21:46 PM
This boy has awareness and courage!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aWAJUETV5rU
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 18, 2012, 10:11:22 PM
The introduction of Henderson gave us more grit in midfield, he appears imo to be relishing
his pressing and tackling work, is more mobile going forward and calling for the ball more often.
Slowly but surely...hopefully!

There seems to be a half decent player lurking inside, it's just whether the mentality will ever allow it to really flourish.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 18, 2012, 10:24:18 PM
Sterling vs Wigan: http://www.youtube.com/embed/JmR272-7aMo (http://www.youtube.com/embed/JmR272-7aMo)

He has a surprising amount of strength for a small, young lad. Brilliant to see the way he plays with his head up, and doesn't shirk any physical stuff either.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 19, 2012, 05:14:00 PM
it's just whether the mentality will ever allow it to really flourish.
He gets some variety with the England U21 games which I think helps
him going both ways i.e. he brings the intensity from the Prem. games to
the internationals and the confidence he gets from more time on the
ball in the U21 games to the Prem.

& also the Europa league run-outs give him game time under a less of
a spotlight (because no-one watches them!).
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 19, 2012, 06:54:25 PM
Sterling vs Wigan: http://www.youtube.com/embed/JmR272-7aMo (http://www.youtube.com/embed/JmR272-7aMo)

He has a surprising amount of strength for a small, young lad. Brilliant to see the way he plays with his head up, and doesn't shirk any physical stuff either.

I love his awareness of his colleagues around him.....it's very rare for someone so young, to play with their head up.

if he keeps developing, like he has been doing, Sterling is going to be the Giggs/Barnes of this generation.  If he develops his finishing, which will come with time, we have a new John Barnes on our hands.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 19, 2012, 07:04:24 PM
He gets some variety with the England U21 games which I think helps
him going both ways i.e. he brings the intensity from the Prem. games to
the internationals and the confidence he gets from more time on the
ball in the U21 games to the Prem.

& also the Europa league run-outs give him game time under a less of
a spotlight (because no-one watches them!).

to date, for both Sunderland and Liverpool, Jordan Henderson has not done anything for me.

he's another of those non-scoring midfielders that our scouting system has a preference for.

4 goals in 70 games during his time in the North East, and two for Liverpool. 

He's not good enough to be a wide winger; nor is he prolific/dynamic/creative enough for central midfield.

maybe, maybe, maybe, we could work on developing him as a tough midfield controller (ala mcmahon/souness type), I dunno.  But as well as technical ability, we need to work on his mental abilities.  Hopefully with age and experience, he can develop and become stronger mentally.



Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 19, 2012, 07:17:37 PM
It's his mental ability which I am most concerned about. If he can't develop that side to his game he will never make it here.

I am less worried about his technical and physical ability. I too do not see him as a wide midfielder. But I do see him as a central midfielder who can pass the ball well, keep the ball and can go forward. I do not see him as a defensively orientated player. At all. For me in normal circumstances he'd be Lucas's understudy. But can play alongside him or on the right hand side of a 3 man central midfield.

I would sacrifice Henderson if it meant we had the money to buy a striker or a wide/creative player like a younger Maxi.

On the other hand Sahin is only on loan and Lucas is injury prone so we need a squad in depth for those central midfield positions and Henderson in an ideal world would be in my squad for that role.

But if his mentality is not developed and/or we need raise funds for a striker/wide player then I would sell him.

Henderson wouldn't be at the top of my list of players I'd sell to raise funds, but he'd be in my top 5.

But we need squad depth to hopefully we don't need to raise funds and can then decide to sell Henderson solely on how he has developed.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 19, 2012, 07:58:40 PM
I love his awareness of his colleagues around him.....it's very rare for someone so young, to play with their head up.

if he keeps developing, like he has been doing, Sterling is going to be the Giggs/Barnes of this generation.  If he develops his finishing, which will come with time, we have a new John Barnes on our hands.

He always looks to see if there is someone better placed and then decides what to do in a given situation. He will improve his goal tally as he gets older but I'd prefer him to carry on being a chance creater, and one that creates space for team mates with his movement. It's great to see a young player with the maturity to be a team player and not simply focusing on 'impressing the boss'.

He needs to be held on to, because if we don't we'll regret it big time.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 19, 2012, 08:08:38 PM
It's his mental ability which I am most concerned about. If he can't develop that side to his game he will never make it here.

I am less worried about his technical and physical ability. I too do not see him as a wide midfielder. But I do see him as a central midfielder who can pass the ball well, keep the ball and can go forward. I do not see him as a defensively orientated player. At all. For me in normal circumstances he'd be Lucas's understudy. But can play alongside him or on the right hand side of a 3 man central midfield.

I would sacrifice Henderson if it meant we had the money to buy a striker or a wide/creative player like a younger Maxi.

On the other hand Sahin is only on loan and Lucas is injury prone so we need a squad in depth for those central midfield positions and Henderson in an ideal world would be in my squad for that role.

But if his mentality is not developed and/or we need raise funds for a striker/wide player then I would sell him.

Henderson wouldn't be at the top of my list of players I'd sell to raise funds, but he'd be in my top 5.

But we need squad depth to hopefully we don't need to raise funds and can then decide to sell Henderson solely on how he has developed.

Pretty much covers everything there, for me. Ever since we signed him he's been frustrating because you get the feeling he can be much better than he's so far proven to be. He's not going to be a physical player in the sense that he's a bone crunching tackler, but he has the engine and touch to be a creater and the kind that makes late runs into the box, adding goals to creativity. He could  develop into a 'Lampard type' player but with a better engine, but he has to have the mentality to seize the game and the moment. It's a shame he doesn't have Shelvey's mentality.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 19, 2012, 08:10:39 PM
I would sacrifice Henderson if it meant we had the money to buy a striker or a wide/creative player like a younger Maxi.

Edward, excellant call. We definately lack that sort of player and it's one that would excel in this current team.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 19, 2012, 09:41:42 PM
It's his mental ability which I am most concerned about. If he can't develop that side to his game he will never make it here.

I am less worried about his technical and physical ability. I too do not see him as a wide midfielder. But I do see him as a central midfielder who can pass the ball well, keep the ball and can go forward. I do not see him as a defensively orientated player. At all. For me in normal circumstances he'd be Lucas's understudy. But can play alongside him or on the right hand side of a 3 man central midfield.

I would sacrifice Henderson if it meant we had the money to buy a striker or a wide/creative player like a younger Maxi.

On the other hand Sahin is only on loan and Lucas is injury prone so we need a squad in depth for those central midfield positions and Henderson in an ideal world would be in my squad for that role.

But if his mentality is not developed and/or we need raise funds for a striker/wide player then I would sell him.

Henderson wouldn't be at the top of my list of players I'd sell to raise funds, but he'd be in my top 5.

But we need squad depth to hopefully we don't need to raise funds and can then decide to sell Henderson solely on how he has developed.
224 You sure as hell change your opinions!

It's almost as if what you praise to the heavens one day, you damn to
damnation in 12 months time (one wonders how your current darlings,
Allen and Rodgers will fare in 12 months time.)

Young Jordan Henderson is mentally fragile? but young Joe Allen has been a
paragon of mental fortitude recently?? I'm not having a go at Allen (who may do
ok for us when he gets played in his position) just noticing your myopia.

Anyway the lad Henderson has his head down and is progressing along and
more power to him I say. He's the type of physical presence we need in the centre
and has the stamina for league campaigns. I don't see mental fragility when he plays
for England U21 and didn't see the other day either when he dwarfed Allen in the centre
and was universally praised for his performance.

Gimme a break! Are you having a laugh?

You choose not to give Henderson a proper chance, when younger players to fully judge them takes at least one year, whether you like it or not Henderson is here to stay and the last few games he has been very good.

Both Carroll and Henderson have the potential to be here for the next 10 years. £50m for the pair of them, that is £5m per year which to me looking at them now and their potential seems a great deal to me.

As for not being anywhere near 4th place......well certainly there are 2 spots locked up in the top 4 - both manchester clubs. We are fighting with chelsea, arsenal, spurs and now newcastle for the other 2 spots - to say we are light years behind is a fallacy and pure bs.

Please don't speak bullshit about the King again. Just because he has been out of management for 10 years doesn't lessen his know how. He has been involved in the game all his life and knows more than you or I.

We will get into the top 4? I don't know. What I do know is that we won't be a million miles off,

Martin why don't you grow a pair?!

Out of it in October? Excuse fornicating me but we are 6 points behind both manc clubs and if we beat manure in 2 weeks we will be 3

I will tell you why, because he is slowly integrating Henderson into the team which benefit us for YEARS, not days, not weeks, not months BUT YEARS.

Henderson has the height and pace to make that position his own for us in future years.

Henderson has taken a huge leap forward and it will take time for him to settle and to improve.

Carroll is an investment for the future if you cannot see that then what can I say.

Carroll is a freaking monster of a player. He is strong, tough, quick and has a magnificent left foot. Yet he has never truly played for us being 100% fit and in form. He needs games to get into form and he will deliver.

Such how you can judge any player, let alone 2 clearly talented players like Henderson and Carroll so early in their careers as professionals and with us beggars belief.

Personally I don't think we can get 4th place............I think we can get 3rd place. Honestly I don't see Chelsea as that much better than us.

Henderson was fantastic today also, he was really our main playmaker, always had awareness of the other players and hardly misplaced a pass. It's as if he's constantly aware of where his 4 nearest teammates are. Great game for him.

Why do so many people seem to hate Jordan Henderson? If you listen to the phone-ins or spend more time than is healthy on Twitter, you’ll have noticed a growing number of Liverpool fans queuing up to put the boot in on their own £16million summer signing. There’s even a Facebook group, inventively titled, “Jordan Henderson is S**T.” It’s not all Liverpool fans, but it is a significant portion of them and they’re not being very fair. Henderson is a more than useful footballer.

In his brief cameo at Stamford Bridge on Sunday, he completed seven out of 10 passes. Seven out of 10. It’s actually rather tempting to use that statistic as a means of quickly describing Henderson to the uninitiated. The 21-year-old really is a 7/10 kind of guy. He’s a cheese and pickle sandwich. He’s a Tom Clancy novel. He’s the second Stone Roses album. He’s good. Not great, but good. If we were to apply the Gary Neville ‘PlayStation Controller’ test, Henderson would be operated by a mature gamer uncomfortable with all those fancy ‘special move’ buttons. And that’s no bad thing.

In all but one of his 12 Premier League appearances this season, Henderson’s pass completion rate has been above 70%. In three games, it has been above 90%. The only aberration was the White Hart Lane massacre (69%) and in that, he was hardly the worst offender. Generally, he gets the ball, he gives the ball and he moves up the field. Get, give, go. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Like another understated Liverpool midfielder, Ray Houghton, Henderson tends to play on the right wing only when his colleagues have the ball. When they are on the back foot, he trots in to form a midfield three. He does his job well and he never complains. But even if Henderson wasn’t giving entirely competent performances, the criticism would be over the top. This is, after all, a young man living in a new city in his first season with one of the most popular clubs on the planet. A little patience might be nice.

The problem, you suspect, is that many of his critics are unaware of the concept of patience, or of Houghton, or of the fact that Liverpool’s success in the 1970s and 80s was built on getting the ball, giving the ball and moving up the field. Today’s game is far more hysterical. In today’s game, if you don’t grab the bull by the horns and flush its head down the toilet like, say, Sergio Aguero at Manchester City, you’re in trouble. Henderson doesn’t grab bulls. He smiles politely and passes the ball around them.

Like his club, he’s in the early stages of what Reds fans will hope is a glorious metamorphosis. In the same way that Kenny Dalglish should never have been expected to convert Roy Hodgson’s misbegotten hoofballers into tiki-taka title contenders inside a year, Henderson should not be expected to wrestle the Ballon D’or from Lionel Messi’s tiny mitts in his debut season. Or indeed, ever. Yes, £16million was probably more than he is worth, but it’s not like he negotiated the fee himself. He shouldn’t be punished for the premium incurred by increasingly stringent ‘homegrown’ player restrictions.

In true Henderson style, let’s make this simple. He is already good. At some point in the future he will be very good and then, as they did with the much-maligned, now much-adored Lucas, those hard-to-please Liverpool fans are going to yank the handbrake and perform a screeching mental U-turn. Perhaps if they got behind their man now, instead of attempting to destroy him, he might get there sooner.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 19, 2012, 09:50:46 PM
224 You sure as hell change your opinions!

It's almost as if what you praise to the heavens one day, you damn to
damnation in 12 months time (one wonders how your current darlings,
Allen and Rodgers will fare in 12 months time.)

Young Jordan Henderson is mentally fragile? but young Joe Allen has been a
paragon of mental fortitude recently?? I'm not having a go at Allen (who may do
ok for us when he gets played in his position) just noticing your myopia.

Anyway the lad Henderson has his head down and is progressing along and
more power to him I say. He's the type of physical presence we need in the centre
and has the stamina for league campaigns. I don't see mental fragility when he plays
for England U21 and didn't see the other day either when he dwarfed Allen in the centre
and was universally praised for his performance.

Gimme a break! Are you having a laugh?

Ed, he's pretty consistent in his view. A year ago he said give Henderson a chance, he needs time. A year later, after giving him the year, he's changed his opinion, since in his view Henderson hasn't developed the mental side like he hoped he would.

So to sum up, Allen and Rodgers have 12 months to prove themselves. I think.  ;D

I wonder what the opinions will be on Allen, Rodgers and Henderson come November 2013. It should be interesting.  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 19, 2012, 10:05:09 PM
Ed, he's pretty consistent in his view.
No he aint!

he said:
"We will get into the top 4? I don't know. What I do know is that we won't be a million miles off, "

We were a million miles off!

"I will tell you why, because he is slowly integrating Henderson into the team which benefit us for YEARS, not days, not weeks, not months BUT YEARS"


He puts the years in caps, now he wants to sell him?

"Carroll is an investment for the future if you cannot see that then what can I say. "

Andy plays for West Ham and seems unlikely to ever wear the red jersey again.

"Personally I don't think we can get 4th place............I think we can get 3rd place. Honestly I don't see Chelsea as that much better than us. "

Ahem.

"In true Henderson style, let’s make this simple. He is already good. At some point in the future he will be very good and then, as they did with the much-maligned, now much-adored Lucas, those hard-to-please Liverpool fans are going to yank the handbrake and perform a screeching mental U-turn. Perhaps if they got behind their man now, instead of attempting to destroy him, he might get there sooner."

Major U-turn! Credibility = zer0  ;D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 19, 2012, 10:24:53 PM
No he aint!

he said:
"We will get into the top 4? I don't know. What I do know is that we won't be a million miles off, "

We were a million miles off!

"I will tell you why, because he is slowly integrating Henderson into the team which benefit us for YEARS, not days, not weeks, not months BUT YEARS"


He puts the years in caps, now he wants to sell him?

"Carroll is an investment for the future if you cannot see that then what can I say. "

Andy plays for West Ham and seems unlikely to ever wear the red jersey again.

"Personally I don't think we can get 4th place............I think we can get 3rd place. Honestly I don't see Chelsea as that much better than us. "

Ahem.

"In true Henderson style, let’s make this simple. He is already good. At some point in the future he will be very good and then, as they did with the much-maligned, now much-adored Lucas, those hard-to-please Liverpool fans are going to yank the handbrake and perform a screeching mental U-turn. Perhaps if they got behind their man now, instead of attempting to destroy him, he might get there sooner."

Major U-turn! Credibility = zer0  ;D

Ed, I was refering specifically to Henderson, which was the content of your original post, not all the other stuff you've since highlighted. On all that, I'll take your word.

A 'clash of Eds' could be about happen. Helmuts at the ready.  :D

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 19, 2012, 10:43:24 PM
Ed, I was refering specifically to Henderson, not all the other stuff you've highlighted. On all that, I'll take your word.
I think my point is he does car crash predictions, they scare
me because the more certain he is the less likely whatever he
says is to happen!

Trust me, not so long ago he said Henderson was a future contender for
the Liverpool captaincy and he's on tonight saying we should sell him even
though he dwarfed Allen (his current flavour of the month, not YEAR  :) )
in Saturday's game.

I generally stick by players and have said so many times in Henderson's
defence that the lad has an engine. To win titles you need engines, players
that run up and down the pitch all season and don't get injured. It's that
dependable consistency of effort, game after game after game.

All of a sudden 224 has decided to change the goal posts and now his big
criteria is mental toughness, risible given Allen has struggled in that area in
recent weeks and Hendo comes on like the incredible Hulk on amphetamines
in the game on Saturday (so delighted to be wearing the shirt).

It's so typical 224 just gets swept along by a tide of blind optimism and believes
wholly in whatever set of circumstances is most positive for the club all the time lashing
out at Dude just because he has a different opinion.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 20, 2012, 12:14:25 AM
I think my point is he does car crash predictions, they scare
me because the more certain he is the less likely whatever he
says is to happen!

Now, I understand the point you were making. The Henderson one being part of a wider point.

All of a sudden 224 has decided to change the goal posts and now his big
criteria is mental toughness, risible given Allen has struggled in that area in
recent weeks and Hendo comes on like the incredible Hulk on amphetamines
in the game on Saturday (so delighted to be wearing the shirt).

It's so typical 224 just gets swept along by a tide of blind optimism and believes
wholly in whatever set of circumstances is most positive for the club all the time lashing
out at Dude just because he has a different opinion.

The bit I've boldened is where I think the whole crux of the problem lies. As everyone has different opinions, I think people also vary in the way they deal with the differing opinions of others from the ones they hold themselves.

A different opinion or the opinion itself is not the problem. It's how other opinions are dealt with and the reaction to them that can be the problem.

I don't think any of us over the years have all agreed entirely on any one topic or even sub topic but we just all have to allow everyone else the right to hold whatever opinion they like, just as we expect to have the right to whatever opinion we wish to as an individual.

Ignore what you don't agree with or put forward reasons for disagreement. If a discussion ensues which you don't like the direction it goes in then leave it alone, but this ain't a points scoring game and you shouldn't be expecting or wanting others to change their opinion to match yours.

From whichever angle we approach anything, I have no doubts about the love and desire for the club that any single one of us has, however different the opinions are or the frequency with which views may be formed or changed.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 20, 2012, 12:44:32 AM
An interesting article, maybe: http://www.theanfieldopinion.com/2012/11/five-things-weve-learned-liverpool-v_19.html (http://www.theanfieldopinion.com/2012/11/five-things-weve-learned-liverpool-v_19.html)

Not sure the view expressed about WBA is quite right. The same was said of Newcastle last season, and without losing players for international weeks and having no European football, they may have that slight edge that proves to be advantageous to them.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 20, 2012, 07:02:04 PM
It's his mental ability which I am most concerned about. If he can't develop that side to his game he will never make it here.

I am less worried about his technical and physical ability. I too do not see him as a wide midfielder. But I do see him as a central midfielder who can pass the ball well, keep the ball and can go forward. I do not see him as a defensively orientated player. At all. For me in normal circumstances he'd be Lucas's understudy. But can play alongside him or on the right hand side of a 3 man central midfield.

I would sacrifice Henderson if it meant we had the money to buy a striker or a wide/creative player like a younger Maxi.

yes, a younger Maxi would be a tremendous asset.  I miss Maxi  (as well as Kuyt and Bellamy....and Mereless).

re Henderson.  I can't see him as a first 11 starter at the club.  He can fill in and do a job, temporarily.  Maybe as you say, as a Lucas understudy.

But, unless there is unforeseen development to come, I personally do not see enough quality in the lad (to compete at the highest level).

And like i said before, he is yet another of those midfielders that we seem to attract, that does not know where the net is at.

I think Dalglish's total acquisitions were all bad buys - Henderson, Adam, Downing. 

And you will not like me for saying it - but I think Rodger's are not much better - Allen and Borini.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 20, 2012, 07:47:47 PM
I think Dalglish's total acquisitions were all bad buys - Henderson, Adam, Downing. 

oops, how did I forget, Carroll.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 20, 2012, 08:23:50 PM
oops, how did I forget, Carroll.

Easily.  :D
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 20, 2012, 10:59:39 PM
Easily.  :D

 :D   too true.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Ed on November 23, 2012, 02:28:48 PM
Dunno we're there or there abouts where Swansea were
this time last season.

http://www.ukfooty.org/premier-league-table/premier-league-table-29th-november-2011/

Need to start winning in the league!
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 07:59:30 PM
Interesting how the overall points totals are lower this season.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 24, 2012, 07:56:25 PM
Lucas made his comeback from injury in the 1-0 win over Boro in the u-21s. That made it undefeated in 10 and the U-21s have qualified for the Elite Group stage. Goal came from Adam Morgan.

Welcome back wee man. Take your time, get up to speed. We need you.
Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 24, 2012, 08:08:28 PM
If we can somehow win tomorrow, which I know will be extremely tough. BUT if we can get the win, then we'd only be 2 points behind Arsenal and 3 points behind Everton. So there is every incentive for us tomorrow.

Title: Re: Season 2012-2013
Post by: Tes on November 24, 2012, 08:11:59 PM