Anfield Road - Liverpool FC Forum

Football and lesser sports => Liverpool FC, football, sport => Topic started by: Ed on August 11, 2012, 06:59:53 PM

Title: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on August 11, 2012, 06:59:53 PM
So we beat the Gomel 4-0 on aggregate, 3-0 the other night at Anfield.

Reminds me of our Carling cup campaign last year, taking it so seriously
early on (or maybe the gaffer was just treating it as a more competitive
preseason workout for the guts of the 1st team).

However 19 (half a season) more games required in order to win it, so despite
the prestige of winning a trophy in Europe the obvious question concerns the
amount of 1st team resources we're going to devote to it, bearing in mind the
Thursday night fixtures and our league ambitions.

Ideally, imo, we'd leave it to Stevie (icon) and Carra (stalwart) to lead a bunch of
fringe players and youth prospects through the early stages (induct them into
European football, so to speak) and conserve the energies of our prize assets,
Lucas, Suarez and the likes of Reina and the two CBs for the league campaign?
Maybe the priority is to qualify for the group stages before such experimentation
can take place. Surely though the likes of Kelly, Coates, Suso, and Sterling (to name
a few) have a role to play in what is almost a mini-league campaign.

 
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on August 11, 2012, 07:20:22 PM
So we beat the Gomel 4-0 on aggregate, 3-0 the other night at Anfield.

Reminds me of our Carling cup campaign last year, taking it so seriously
early on (or maybe the gaffer was just treating it as a more competitive
preseason workout for the guts of the 1st team).

However 19 (half a season) more games required in order to win it, so despite
the prestige of winning a trophy in Europe the obvious question concerns the
amount of 1st team resources we're going to devote to it, bearing in mind the
Thursday night fixtures and our league ambitions.

Ideally, imo, we'd leave it to Stevie (icon) and Carra (stalwart) to lead a bunch of
fringe players and youth prospects through the early stages (induct them into
European football, so to speak) and conserve the energies of our prize assets,
Lucas, Suarez and the likes of Reina and the two CBs for the league campaign?
Maybe the priority is to qualify for the group stages before such experimentation
can take place. Surely though the likes of Kelly, Coates, Suso, and Sterling (to name
a few) have a role to play in what is almost a mini-league campaign.

Ideally, Ed. The problem we face is that Rodgers hasn't ever managed a team in European competition so he is on a massive learning curve, more than quite a few of our players.
It's going to be quite a balancing act, putting out a team strong enough for him to put his theories successfully to the test and be able to learn from his mistakes, whilst not undermining our league campaign in any way.

Out of the three cups, this is the one I'd like to see us take the most seriously as we need to raise our profile as much as possible again in Europe. Players on mainland Europe certainly seem to take it more seriously than maybe fans in this country.

It really needs to be slashed as it's a horridly overbloated competition.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on August 11, 2012, 07:29:56 PM
Regarding the game itself, i thought Borini took his goal well (Maxi-esque)
under a bit of pressure from the defender  but wonder if we lack a bit of
variety up front with Borini, Suarez, Downing and Stevie G (playing further
forward from midfield) all buzzing around but no clear target for crosses and
free kicks depending who comes up from the back (as was the case last season
when Carrolll didn't play).

Of course if we sign Dempsey, that changes somewhat but then if Carroll leaves
we're back looking dreadfully mediocre up front should Suarez get injured.

It was interesting David Pleat made the point in the commentary (one we're
all familiar with at this stage) about the dilemma for Rodgers wanting to implement
his system with the quality of players he has.

Surprised also to see so much of Shelvey (can be wild in the challenge) and not to
see any of Henderson. Early days I suppose and a lot of decisions yet to be made before
the window closes.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on August 11, 2012, 07:33:51 PM
Ideally, Ed. The problem we face is that Rodgers hasn't ever managed a team in European competition so he is on a massive learning curve, more than quite a few of our players.
It's going to be quite a balancing act, putting out a team strong enough for him to put his theories successfully to the test and be able to learn from his mistakes, whilst not undermining our league campaign in any way.
Maybe but he's the manager of LFC so he gets paid to make the right decisions and get results?

Out of the three cups, this is the one I'd like to see us take the most seriously as we need to raise our profile as much as possible again in Europe. Players on mainland Europe certainly seem to take it more seriously than maybe fans in this country.
Agree completely 100%, the younger players coming through in Europe need a reminder of who
LFC are.

It really needs to be slashed as it's a horridly overbloated competition.
From what i saw last season, it gets exciting and fairly competitive in the latter stages though.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on August 11, 2012, 07:45:51 PM
From what i saw last season, it gets exciting and fairly competitive in the latter stages though.

No doubt, but it's too many games to win what is such a low profile competition.

It needs to go backwards to go forwards.

Qualification is through league or cup achievement. Stop it being a dumping ground for CL failures at qualification and group stage levels. Stop having qualifying tournos like the Intertoto and handing out places for fairplay, best dressed, tastiest pie etc.

In fact I'd like to see the Cup Winners Cup return so qualification for the EL is through league and therefore a total season's achievement.

Stop having so many 'qualifying' rounds followed by a 'play off' etc. Also they need to go back to it being a two legged competition all the way to the final. That sets it apart from the Champions 'League' in the character of the competition.

Also, lets trim down the CL places to Top 3. Bronze, silver, gold if you like. That would improve the quality of the teams and do away with needing to 'improve' it with CL failures. That initself reinforces it as a 'consolation tournament'.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on August 12, 2012, 03:14:34 PM
No doubt, but it's too many games to win what is such a low profile competition.

I agree they could make some changes to the format to bring it out of the shadow
of the juggernaut that is the CL. Tbh, though, it probably starts with the devaluation
of tournaments such as the Carling cup that lead to qualification in the first place.

Surely though the likes of Kelly, Coates, Suso, and Sterling (to name
a few) have a role to play in what is almost a mini-league campaign. 

Happy to see 3 of those names in the starting lineup for today  :) (wonder
what's happening with the cultured Suso though).
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on August 12, 2012, 03:35:15 PM
Both Suso and Pacheco should feature this season. I'd much prefer to see them in the squad and free up room on the payroll with the sale of the likes of Cole, Adam, Wilson, Jones and Spearing.

They've all either got nothing to contribute or not enough to warrant what we're giving them.

I'd rather see youngsters coming up short through a lack of experience than established pros simply showing nothing of the level of what we need or have a right to expect from them.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on August 13, 2012, 01:27:23 AM
Both Suso and Pacheco should feature this season. I'd much prefer to see them in the squad and free up room on the payroll with the sale of the likes of Cole, Adam, Wilson, Jones and Spearing.
I'd like to see Suso play in the Europa league. Strangely i think Juan said Pacheco
was left out of that squad which suggests another loan deal to me because he needs
to be getting regular game time at his age.

I worry about some of those players you mention, I mean I wonder if they could be
trusted to look after something as basic as the early rounds of the Carling Cup...
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on August 13, 2012, 04:46:46 PM
I worry about some of those players you mention, I mean I wonder if they could be
trusted to look after something as basic as the early rounds of the Carling Cup...

Which ones Ed? Suso and Pacheco?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Juan on August 22, 2012, 03:34:55 PM
Delighted to see we've left Pacheco out of another European squad yet we're intent on bringing all of our homegrown rubbish. Dont get me wrong we have some fine homegrown players in there too but there are others in there that are never going to make it yet I dont understand why they get picked. At least Rodgers is prioritising the league.

Liverpool : Reina, Jones, Kelly, Agger, Carragher, Coates, Flanagan, Shelvey, Lucas, Adam, Allen, Henderson, Spearing, Downing, Borini, Carroll, Wilson, Robinson, Sterling, Eccleston.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on August 22, 2012, 05:05:12 PM
Delighted to see we've left Pacheco out of another European squad yet we're intent on bringing all of our homegrown rubbish. Dont get me wrong we have some fine homegrown players in there too but there are others in there that are never going to make it yet I dont understand why they get picked. At least Rodgers is prioritising the league.

Liverpool : Reina, Jones, Kelly, Agger, Carragher, Coates, Flanagan, Shelvey, Lucas, Adam, Allen, Henderson, Spearing, Downing, Borini, Carroll, Wilson, Robinson, Sterling, Eccleston.

I'd rather see Ryan McLaughlin in there if we're ever going to try Kelly as a centre half, now's the time. He won't be bombarded with high balls into the box, so he'll be able to defend on the ground.
I'd have left Spearing out and used Henderson there, giving his spot to Pacheco. I'd also have left out Adam and used Suso instead.

Downing, I'd just leave at some far flung place in the deepest, darkest corner of Europe and hope he doesn't find his way home.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on August 22, 2012, 05:44:52 PM
Downing, I'd just leave at some far flung place in the deepest, darkest corner of Europe and hope he doesn't find his way home.

 :D

chin up, we're being linked with Adam Johnston. 

we're gonna need a lot of dark corners across europe, to lose all these journeymen.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on August 22, 2012, 06:44:25 PM
:D

chin up, we're being linked with Adam Johnston. 

we're gonna need a lot of dark corners across europe, to lose all these journeymen.

We'll need to hope we get past Edinburgh and draw a few ........ikstans in the group stage so we've enough places to fly tip.

At a push I'd take him on loan, but with the option of dumping him outside the Etihad at any given moment if he reverts to type. I think we soon be talking about another waste of resources if we were to buy him.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Juan on August 22, 2012, 08:31:04 PM
Downing, I'd just leave at some far flung place in the deepest, darkest corner of Europe and hope he doesn't find his way home.

Id high hopes for Downing but hes proving to be useless. His decision making is terrible. He regularly over hits crosses and I never understand at times why he persists in crossing the ball when theres no one in the box..
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on August 22, 2012, 08:37:24 PM
I never understand at times why he persists in crossing the ball when theres no one in the box..

because

His decision making is terrible.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on August 22, 2012, 09:06:48 PM
Liverpool : Reina, Jones, Kelly, Agger, Carragher, Coates, Flanagan, Shelvey, Lucas, Adam, Allen, Henderson, Spearing, Downing, Borini, Carroll, Wilson, Robinson, Sterling, Eccleston.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyPHhrlcBxo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyPHhrlcBxo)

Great piece of music. It could easily be for a 70s American cop series instead.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Juan on August 22, 2012, 10:54:56 PM
because

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on August 23, 2012, 12:58:59 AM
Has anyone at Anfield filed a missing persons report on Doni yet, I wonder.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on August 24, 2012, 01:05:57 PM
Has anyone at Anfield filed a missing persons report on Doni yet, I wonder.
Probably left for personal reasons a la Maxi & Bellers.

Very happy with the Hearts game. Not so much the match itself which could have gone
either way and wouldn't particularly like to have seen us go a goal down (I think the game
would have suited Carroll down to the ground but there's a concern over his hamstring). Anyway,
seeing Kelly, Robinson and Sterling get game time was good and Morgan coming on at the end was
also great to see (looks a player imo, strange 'cos i haven't seen much of him but he just looks a
bit different to the average youth academy guy, like he means business or something?).

I think the gaffer got his selection right in terms of the mix of youth and experience and something
similar would be suitable for the Carling Cup games. Not a fan of his mad system though (the ball
just seems to spend an interminable amount of time going back and back further in our own half?).

Credit btw to Sterling (like a knife through butter sometimes!), good performance from the 17 year old
away from home in Europe. Needs to be used wisely in the early months of the season and someone
seriously needs to step in and keep the hype machine in check!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on September 06, 2012, 06:20:35 PM
   
Goalkeepers
No.   Name   P   G
1   Brad Jones   -   -
25   Pepe Reina   -   -
42   Péter Gulácsi   -   -
Defenders
No.   Name   P   G
2   Glen Johnson   -   -
3   José Enrique   -   -
5   Daniel Agger   -   -
16   Sebastián Coates   -   -
22   Danny Wilson   -   -
23   Jamie Carragher   -   -
34   Martin Kelly   -   -
37   Martin Škrtel   -   -
38   Jonathon Flanagan*   -   -
43   Ryan McLaughlin   -   -
49   Jack Robinson*   -   -
Midfielders
No.   Name   P   G
4   Nuri Şahin   -   -
8   Steven Gerrard   -   -
10   Joe Cole   -   -
14   Jordan Henderson   -   -
19   Stewart Downing   -   -
21   Lucas   -   -
24   Joe Allen   -   -
31   Raheem Sterling*   -   -
33   Jonjo Shelvey   -   -
Forwards
No.   Name   P   G
7   Luis Suárez   -   -
11   Oussama Assaidi   -   -
12   Daniel Pacheco*   -   -
29   Fabio Borini   -   -
30   Suso*   -   -
36   Samed Yesil   -   -
50   Adam Morgan*   -   -
Coach: Brendan Rodgers (NIR)

    * Player list B

Taken from: http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2013/clubs/club=7889/index.html (http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/season=2013/clubs/club=7889/index.html)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on September 17, 2012, 11:43:34 AM
It would be a good opportunity to play Assaidi and Sahin in order to get them some match fitness and also play Borini centrally to hopefully help him play himself into some form and maybe get another goal in his prefered position.

Give Coates another run out and play Pacheco instead of Sterling and give Sterling a rest. If fit enough, Enrique needs a game to up his match fitness and try and gain some confidence, if not then play Downing there so he gets some more experience at playing left back.

We can't afford too many changes in midfield, maybe Henderson in for Gerrard, but we lack a left footed midfielder to give balance.

Is Allen left or right footed as he seems comfortable using either.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on September 19, 2012, 10:08:43 PM
It's in our best interest! Rodgers admits Liverpool will play reserves in Europe

19 September 2012


Liverpool manager Brendan Rodgers admits he is trying to protect the club's Barclays Premier League season by fielding a virtual reserve side in Europe.

The Reds have had their worst start to a campaign in 100 years with just two points from their opening four matches and it does not get any easier with arch-rivals Manchester United heading to Anfield on Sunday.

As a result captain Steven Gerrard, Luis Suarez, Jose Reina, Glen Johnson, Martin Skrtel, Daniel Agger, Joe Allen and Martin Kelly have all been left behind for Thursdays's Europa League clash with Swiss side Young Boys.

It means the likes of Samed Yesil, Suso, Andre Wisdom, Conor Coady, Adam Morgan, Jack Robinson and Dani Pacheco have all been included in the Europa League squad - which has an average age of just 21 and includes seven teenagers.

'I can understand why people would perceive us as not taking it seriously but I will always do what is in the best interests of the football club,' said Rodgers.

'There is no doubt the Premier League is our number one priority, I've made that clear from the off with the position with our squad.

'I look at Real Madrid v Manchester City last night and Samir Nasri came off with an injury but they have a massive squad who can accommodate that.

'If I lose some of my key players that can make it very difficult for us for the next two or three months.

'There were parts of the game against Arsenal (after their Europa League play-off last month) where we were a bit leggy so we have to make sure we are all firing for Sunday.

'No matter what the perception is I know in my own mind I've brought a team here which has a mixture of experience and talented young players.

'I am fully aware that when you pull on a Liverpool shirt you are expected to win the games so I've brought a team I believe can win the game.'

Rodgers is effectively gambling with the Europa League in an attempt to safeguard Liverpool's league form, a decision brought about more out of necessity than design.

The Northern Irishman's summer recruitment was not extensive and so he does not have that many options and their difficult start to the season has compounded matters.

It means he is putting faith in the likes of players who have been in the youth and reserve set-up for a while without having forced themselves into the first team.

However, Rodgers remains confident they can do a job for him alongside the more senior players.

'You never actually know about young players until you actually put them in this situation but we have a good mixture as well,' he added.

'We have experienced international players and some very talented youngsters so I'm very much looking forward to the game.

'I've brought young players who I feel, from what I've seen in the early part of the season, can come in and contribute.'

While the youngsters are just looking for a chance to earn a longer stay in the squad Rodgers insists some of the more senior players can still stake a claim for Sunday's clash against United.

He accepts, however, it is more about keeping them sharp enough to be able to slot in when needed.

'Brad Jones will play tomorrow. He has been first class. He hasn't had a look in at all this season but he has come in and worked well,' he said.

'Guys like Jamie Carragher have been phenomenal. To see how he works and his passion to play for Liverpool is really encouraging and he is a great role model for players here.

'They are going to be up to speed in terms of games as the Europa League gives them chance to play.

'Boys like Jordan Henderson and Stewart Downing have all been working hard in training and they will get minutes under their belts so if they are required to play they will be up to speed.

'Nuri Sahin needs games to get up to speed and they all need to keep ticking over because they're important players.

'There is no question why they can't be involved at the weekend.

'The idea is for the squad to be small as it keeps players who are just on the outside the motivation that they still have an opportunity.'


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2205679/Liverpool-play-reserves-Europa-League-boost-domestic-hopes.html?openGraphAuthor=%2Fhome%2Fsearch.html%3Fs%3D%26authornamef%3DSportsmail%2BReporter (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2205679/Liverpool-play-reserves-Europa-League-boost-domestic-hopes.html?openGraphAuthor=%2Fhome%2Fsearch.html%3Fs%3D%26authornamef%3DSportsmail%2BReporter)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on September 19, 2012, 11:44:27 PM
The Telegraph have the possible team down as:

Liverpool (4-3-3): Jones; Wisdom, Carragher, Coates, Enrique; Henderson, Sahin, Suso; Downing, Pachecho, Assaidi.


So no real 'out and out' striker. Assaidi 'can' play there so he'll probably be it.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on September 20, 2012, 10:28:46 AM
SAHIN TALKS UP EUROPA LEAGUE

Thursday September 20,2012


On-loan Liverpool midfielder Nuri Sahin does not view being asked to help lead an under-strength side's Europa League challenge as a step down for him.
Last season the 24-year-old Turkey international was playing alongside the likes of Cristiano Ronaldo, Kaka and Xabi Alonso in Real Madrid's run to the semi-finals of the Champions League. On Thursday night he will make his second appearance since moving to Anfield on a season-long temporary deal in a virtual Liverpool reserve side against Young Boys in Bern.

"I know maybe in England the focus is more on the Champions League," he said. "Maybe it's because the English teams are getting used to winning trophies in the Champions League: if you look at the semi-finals most of the teams are Spanish or English. Every player wants to play Champions League but I am not the type of person to say it is a step down."

He added: "The Europa League is a very good competition also and we will try to go to the end.

"I played this competition with Borussia Dortmund and it is a difficult competition and when the Champions League teams come down after their first group stage it becomes a very good competition."

Sahin, who needs match sharpness, is one of the few players in a squad with the average age of 21 who has Champions League football experience.

And while he will be seen as one of those expected to help the youngsters through the Group A clash, he also has to concentrate on his own game as he tries to force his way into the first-team reckoning.

"I love football and I am happy I can be a part of the game," he added. "We have a few players who can lead the team but I am one of the players with the most experience.

"I try to lead the team because I play central midfield and I have to take the responsibility and I am glad to do this.

"I want to play every game. Last year I played only a few games and this year I want to play every minute. Of course I need games to get to the level I long to be and this is a good chance for me."


http://www.express.co.uk/football/view/347155 (http://www.express.co.uk/football/view/347155)

It's about time every player, without exception, looked at the competition like this instead of sulking and just 'going through the motions' because it's not the CL.

We need to do well in this to raise our profile in Europe once more. If the players don't perform then they can't moan about the standard of player that is prepared to come to the club. They're the ones on the pitch. Only they can influence outcomes of matches.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on September 20, 2012, 06:47:07 PM
Wisdom with the wise head...
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 20, 2012, 07:57:27 PM
Wow! :) Brendan makes Rafa look like a tit in Europe!!! ;D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on September 20, 2012, 10:32:36 PM
Wisdom was the stand out player of all the 'nippers' on show tonight. Not bad for a centre half playing out of position.

Henderson needs to be more positive but his setting up of the goals was coolness itself and Borini's runs were creating so much space.

Shelvey's benefitting no end from the extra time he's getting on the pitch.

We were far from comfortable but scoring 5 goals away from home is a feat in any competition.

Now let's build on this starting with our first league win of the season against the great unwashed.
Title: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Gurdeep on September 20, 2012, 10:33:58 PM
Wow! :) Brendan makes Rafa look like a tit in Europe!!! ;D

Eh?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on September 20, 2012, 10:43:47 PM
Eh?

 :D  Gurdeep, we need a 'scratching head in puzzlement' smillie.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 21, 2012, 07:59:12 AM
Wisdom was the stand out player of all the 'nippers' on show tonight. Not bad for a centre half playing out of position.

Henderson needs to be more positive but his setting up of the goals was coolness itself and Borini's runs were creating so much space.

Shelvey's benefitting no end from the extra time he's getting on the pitch.

We were far from comfortable but scoring 5 goals away from home is a feat in any competition.

Now let's build on this starting with our first league win of the season against the great unwashed.

Pardon my pickyness but shouldn't that be "the greatly unwashed"?

Me too was impressed by Wisdom's performance and his header was absolutely brilliant. I also thought Suso impressed me greatly as did Assaidi with a very Giggs-like style of play (a younger Giggs I might add). I said to myself once Shelvey starts to hit the target our goals from midfield ratio will increase dramatically. It will also help us get more people into the box which is the main reason for our goaldrought.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on September 21, 2012, 08:00:11 AM
:D  Gurdeep, we need a 'scratching head in puzzlement' smillie.

Or even better, never mind the Swenglish bullocks smilie.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on September 21, 2012, 04:49:29 PM
Pardon my pickyness but shouldn't that be "the greatly unwashed"?

Me too was impressed by Wisdom's performance and his header was absolutely brilliant. I also thought Suso impressed me greatly as did Assaidi with a very Giggs-like style of play (a younger Giggs I might add). I said to myself once Shelvey starts to hit the target our goals from midfield ratio will increase dramatically. It will also help us get more people into the box which is the main reason for our goaldrought.

Assaidi did look comfortable with the ball at his feet and whilst not like lightening, he has the combination of enough speed and good close ball control to look like he could cause trouble to plenty of defences.

And a mention for Jones, whilst non of the goals were his fault he looked confident and assured in everything he did and his handling was very good and I was also impressed with his distributuion and footwork. He looks altogether a different player to what I've seen before from him. I wouldn't be so worried, as previously, if he had to take over from Reina for a few games.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 04, 2012, 07:23:55 PM
You can see he's kindof hedging his bets with this!

Reina, Johnson, Coates, Carragher, Robinson, Assaidi, Henderson, Allen, Shelvey, Downing, Borini.
Subs: Jones, Suarez, Gerrard, Sahin, Sterling, Skrtel, Wisdom.

Suarez, Gerrard & Sahin to the rescue if things go pear-shaped...

Questions for tonight:

Is there a consistent end product with Assaidi?
Can Borini score a goal?
Can Downing put in a decent shift and be an attacking threat?
Will Allen run the show?
Is Pepe currently a liability that unnerves the back 4?
Will we get completely caught out on the counter?
That left side looks weak?
The Shelvey and Henderson show (any good?)
Are we still error prone?
Where will the goals come from?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 04, 2012, 07:54:49 PM
Winning, like losing, becomes a habbit. It's a sensible move to try and build on the last Europa League, League Cup and PL victories and build positive momentum ahead of Stoke.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 04, 2012, 10:18:37 PM
Extremly poor second half performance. Big set back for Brendan this. Defense needs sorting even if were play with the second string. Coates needs to go. Our response to their equaliser Washington nothing shorts of shocking and very very worrying. Not confident at all ahead of Sunday.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Juan on October 04, 2012, 10:32:45 PM
You can see he's kindof hedging his bets with this!

Reina, Johnson, Coates, Carragher, Robinson, Assaidi, Henderson, Allen, Shelvey, Downing, Borini.
Subs: Jones, Suarez, Gerrard, Sahin, Sterling, Skrtel, Wisdom.

Suarez, Gerrard & Sahin to the rescue if things go pear-shaped...

Questions for tonight:

Is there a consistent end product with Assaidi?
Can Borini score a goal?
Can Downing put in a decent shift and be an attacking threat?
Will Allen run the show?
Is Pepe currently a liability that unnerves the back 4?
Will we get completely caught out on the counter?
That left side looks weak?
The Shelvey and Henderson show (any good?)
Are we still error prone?
Where will the goals come from?

Lots of questions but plenty of answers too. Despite the loss I think we are still going forward in terms of treating this as a tournament to play some more fringe players. I wanted to see us prioritise the league and thats definitely what we're doing. For me what tonight tells us is Carragher is almost surplus to requirements, Downing is no more effective than any of our youngsters, Henderson is deservedly about 6th place in terms of the central midfield places and that its going to take a bigger effort to shore up the back. I still think we are on the right track. 3 homes losses in a row but Im definitely seeing things from a glass half full perspective.

80 million for Carroll Downing and Henderson - wow. We'd be lucky to get 25 for all 3 now and thats valuing Carroll close to 20.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 04, 2012, 11:08:55 PM
Lots of questions but plenty of answers too. Despite the loss I think we are still going forward in terms of treating this as a tournament to play some more fringe players. I wanted to see us prioritise the league and thats definitely what we're doing. For me what tonight tells us is Carragher is almost surplus to requirements, Downing is no more effective than any of our youngsters, Henderson is deservedly about 6th place in terms of the central midfield places and that its going to take a bigger effort to shore up the back. I still think we are on the right track. 3 homes losses in a row but Im definitely seeing things from a glass half full perspective.

80 million for Carroll Downing and Henderson - wow. We'd be lucky to get 25 for all 3 now and thats valuing Carroll close to 20.

Exactly, Juan. Whoever had taken over as manager was starting from such a low base and with a purse of nothing but coppers.

Coates apart from the goal was fine. Most of our players had a 35 minutes half time break, just not good enough at any level.
The goals situation is now a problem, no ifs buts or maybes from me on this. Whether it's the system, the players, the kit or the fact that the tea lady's changed the brand of tea bags, the system has to be altered to tighten up at the back. We're still under manned in terms of numbers and quality when attacking, making it even more vital we don't concede.
Rodgers has to grasp the nettle and sort the defensive side of our play, however he does it.

Our movement in terms of giving the man with the ball options was poor, even when we were on top, our movement wasn't as good as there's.
We were also losing their players too easily. They were moving into space and we weren't cutting out the line of pass from the man with the ball. We don't neccessarily have to get near the nearest man, just block the line of pass.

We also need to switch onto Borini's movement better. We're wasting the chance when he gets himself free and aren't utilising the space his movement is creating.

Henderson is proving the biggest disappointment under Rodgers. I thought he would benefit by the style of play, but he's proving himself as ineffective as he was under Dalglish.

Sometimes we need to be a bit more adventurous with our passing. We can't play by numbers all the time. We got players forward but then they got in eachothers' way sometimes and the short passing was the undoing, as they weren't really able to either get out of the way or into a positive space having released the ball.

Still very early days in the learning process (for everyone, Rodgers included) but the constant concession of goals needs sorting.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 04, 2012, 11:12:24 PM
Not confident at all ahead of Sunday.

Pullis doesn't have the wiles of Francesco Guidolin but I know what you mean, Martin. Defeat always causes apprehension or re-avaluation.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 05, 2012, 08:19:50 AM
Pullis doesn't have the wiles of Francesco Guidolin but I know what you mean, Martin.

But he do have the most physically astute and tallest squad in the PL as I see it. They'll park the bus and wait for that set piece where they know we're pathetic.

Maybe I was harsh on Coates, but there's something about him that makes me feel worried everytime he gets into a duel or a 50-50 situation. Fair enough he never got the chance to slot into the team the way Skrtel did, but everytime he play the back four seems shaky. Not saying it's his fault only it'll be hard for him to get more than a dozen games/season when that's the case.

I also think Gerrard fucked us up pretty badly when he came on. Sure, his passion and drive is fantastic only his need to be involved in every situation/position combined with him being hellbent on always chosing the most difficult option out of 3 didn't really help the team.  He should use his experience to lead and support not doing everything by himself. We got increasingly predictable and unthreatening after Luis stunning free-kick, no thanks to Stevie lad.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 05, 2012, 08:20:39 AM
Exactly, Juan. Whoever had taken over as manager was starting from such a low base and with a purse of nothing but coppers.

Coates apart from the goal was fine. Most of our players had a 35 minutes half time break, just not good enough at any level.
The goals situation is now a problem, no ifs buts or maybes from me on this. Whether it's the system, the players, the kit or the fact that the tea lady's changed the brand of tea bags, the system has to be altered to tighten up at the back. We're still under manned in terms of numbers and quality when attacking, making it even more vital we don't concede.
Rodgers has to grasp the nettle and sort the defensive side of our play, however he does it.

Our movement in terms of giving the man with the ball options was poor, even when we were on top, our movement wasn't as good as there's.
We were also losing their players too easily. They were moving into space and we weren't cutting out the line of pass from the man with the ball. We don't neccessarily have to get near the nearest man, just block the line of pass.

We also need to switch onto Borini's movement better. We're wasting the chance when he gets himself free and aren't utilising the space his movement is creating.

Henderson is proving the biggest disappointment under Rodgers. I thought he would benefit by the style of play, but he's proving himself as ineffective as he was under Dalglish.

Sometimes we need to be a bit more adventurous with our passing. We can't play by numbers all the time. We got players forward but then they got in eachothers' way sometimes and the short passing was the undoing, as they weren't really able to either get out of the way or into a positive space having released the ball.

Still very early days in the learning process (for everyone, Rodgers included) but the constant concession of goals needs sorting.

What a brilliant analysis! Very well written indeed.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on October 05, 2012, 11:58:34 AM
Agreed Tes, i thought Coates did pretty well until the own goal...he's young and he'll learn from that...

I think we need to buy a decent goalie to be honest, as Reina needs a kick up the bottom...for too long he's been number one and all the going off with the world/euro champions seems to have let him get a little lax...

Many of the youngsters did very well last night...but last night highlighted the need for good decent experienced players...gotta say i howled 4 maxi, bellars and kuyt...if we had sold them on for a ransom i would have understood it...to let them go for nowt soon looks like an anchor round the jolly rodgers neck...


Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 05, 2012, 05:07:27 PM
Lots of questions but plenty of answers too. Despite the loss I think we are still going forward in terms of treating this as a tournament to play some more fringe players. I wanted to see us prioritise the league and thats definitely what we're doing. For me what tonight tells us is Carragher is almost surplus to requirements, Downing is no more effective than any of our youngsters, Henderson is deservedly about 6th place in terms of the central midfield places and that its going to take a bigger effort to shore up the back. I still think we are on the right track. 3 homes losses in a row but Im definitely seeing things from a glass half full perspective.

80 million for Carroll Downing and Henderson - wow. We'd be lucky to get 25 for all 3 now and thats valuing Carroll close to 20.
Full credit to Udinese! They came looking for a result and got one.

From our end it's a bad result and we'll now need to devote unnecessary
resources on oversea trips in this competition. A knock-on effect that
won't help us in the league.

What I seriously don't understand is how we seem to be just too stupid to
get a result in a football match. Even a draw? You can see with Udinese that
they are 100% committed to getting a result (their defending in the last 15
minutes was immense). Where it's really obvious is when the lad rugby tackles
Downing. He'll take a yellow and collectively as a team they're smart enough to
sub him. Us on the other hand, it's almost as if we felt entitled to win the football
match and stroke it round with nothing on the end of it when we were on top in
the first half instead of killing it off.

Then it's panic stations all round when they score. It was only 1-1 and instead of
addressing the defensive side of things we throw on two attackers  (i thought Hendo
was doing fine with his conservative passing and sure Stevie comes on like a bat
out of hell and concedes possession twice in the build up to their 3rd). I mean Stevie
& Shelvey on the pitch is not exactly a defensive set up?

All in all, we looked completely naive and Udinese taught us a lesson in the art of winning
a football match, which is fundamental!

Shame on us!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 05, 2012, 05:12:31 PM
I really don't understand the criticism of Henderson in this game. I thought when he went off we lost control of the midfield.

But Rodgers was right we were lazy and did not track back.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 05, 2012, 05:25:32 PM
All in all, we looked completely naive and Udinese taught us a lesson in the art of winning
a football match, which is fundamental!

Rodgers will smarten up up to the 'realities' of management at the top level. One way or the other he has to. It's a case of how long the process takes. He was beaten by experience, and that experience develops a 'know-how'. Unfortunately this season can be nothing more than a learning experience for him, never having managed in European football and he may have to tweak a successful PL system for European competition. I remember Taggart saying how he had had to learn to do the same.
 
Udinese didn't panic when they went behind, instead they kept finding holes and utilising them. Gerrard has to learn when to 'force' it and when to just keep the 'flow flowing'. It goes back to when Benitez took him off against Everton in order to utilise Lucas' calmer head (it may have been Lucas' debut, I can't quite remember). He still doesn't seemed to have taken Rafa's aftermatch explanation on board.
Shelvey also needs to learn when to take a touch or when several are required. He seems to want to hold onto the ball far too long when a simple but progressive pass is on. By the time he looks to release the opportunity's passed.

For all his obvious skill, Sterling keeps things simple when he can, holds possession when he knows he needs support and he has a terrific work ethic for one so young and talented. 
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 05, 2012, 05:28:34 PM
But he do have the most physically astute and tallest squad in the PL as I see it. They'll park the bus and wait for that set piece where they know we're pathetic.

Good point about their physical nature, Martin. Rodgers needs to drill the players not to give silly free kicks away in areas where they can deliver into the box. Wisdom might be a good selection as he has the height and strength and we don't lose technically by selecting those qualities either.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 23, 2012, 02:49:55 AM
Was listening to TAW earlier today and the boys were
all on for prioritising the derby game against the blues
over our Europa league match against Hiddinks outfit
which they weren't taking particularly seriously. I seem
to remember Moyes having a similar attitude about
some game last season and getting spanked by us when
he fielded a weakened team (were the two games we won
at Anfield last season in 2012 against weakened teams?).

I disagree.

I think taking Thursdays match anything other than uber-seriously
could have dire consequences. We need to perform at our best in
both games and top-class management is required to get results in
both (so be it if a draw against Everton is the fall out from a home
win in the Europa league).

It's funny in that it doesn't take long in certain fans heads before it's
to hell with everything else we're marching up the table. Again I disagree
and think it would be unwise at this stage of our season to jettison any
potential silverware and/or experience of European competition.

Here's hoping the gaffer has some fighting talk ahead of this tie on Thursday,
a humiliation at the hands of the Russians would be a major set back imo.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 23, 2012, 08:11:11 PM
We need to keep up our recent improvement in defence by keeping two more clean sheets and need to bounce back in Europe after that embarrassment against Udinese.
We need to be lifting our profile in Europe if we want to attract players that will help us get back into the top four. That won't happen this season so we need to be 'making waves' ready for the Summer, when we'll need to recruit players again to help us improve further. The domestic and European competitions aren't mutually exclusive. They depend on each other and should be inspiration for each other.

We're in the Europa League, we haven't won Europe's heaviest trophy for 11 years. It's time we did again. Also, we'd become the most successful team in the competition with 4 victories. I don't care what the competition's called, being the most successful team in it's history sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 23, 2012, 08:28:27 PM
I guess a Cup is a Cup.

And 30 years ago, I would have been delighted with the UEFA Cup (or the Cup Winners Cup).

But the EUFA Cup is now a gypsy trophy, every second-tier man and his dog are in it.....and I cannot get enthused with it.....at least not in these early stages.

Got me thinking - why not do away with it....and reintroduce in it's place, the European Cup Winners cup (which would consist of all of Europe's cup winners from the previous season).    But then again, the problem is these endless group games, there to produce money.  I want two-legged knockout.....you know that thing we used to see in football, in days of olde.......EXCITEMENT.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 23, 2012, 09:31:58 PM
I guess a Cup is a Cup.

And 30 years ago, I would have been delighted with the UEFA Cup (or the Cup Winners Cup).

But the EUFA Cup is now a gypsy trophy, every second-tier man and his dog are in it.....and I cannot get enthused with it.....at least not in these early stages.

Got me thinking - why not do away with it....and reintroduce in it's place, the European Cup Winners cup (which would consist of all of Europe's cup winners from the previous season).    But then again, the problem is these endless group games, there to produce money.  I want two-legged knockout.....you know that thing we used to see in football, in days of olde.......EXCITEMENT.

Back to the future. Re-introduce both competitions in their original form but with a 'normal' final in the UEFA Cup, not the two-legged one they had in the 70s.

The UEFA Cup is an award for consistent performance in the league, the Cup Winners Cup for those who did well in a limited games, 'luck of the draw' competition.

Let's not have drawn out rounds and rounds of qualifiers and play offs ad nausium and the group stages seem a long way round to whittling down the numbers. No CL failures, keep the competition for those that have 'achieved'. Simplicity.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 23, 2012, 09:39:57 PM
Back to the future. Re-introduce both competitions in their original form but with a 'normal' final in the UEFA Cup, not the two-legged one they had in the 70s.

The UEFA Cup is an award for consistent performance in the league, the Cup Winners Cup for those who did well in a limited games, 'luck of the draw' competition.

Let's not have drawn out rounds and rounds of qualifiers and play offs ad nausium and the group stages seem a long way round to whittling down the numbers. No CL failures, keep the competition for those that have 'achieved'. Simplicity.

yes, definitely, and *final* needs to be one game (not the old two legged affair).

but I think group games should be done away with, in all of these european competitions.

and several rounds of qualifiers are an instant turn off. 

with so many qualifying these times for the CL, I just cannot get any enthusiasm for a trophy consisting of teams who have finished far off the top tier.

in the olde days, it worked......one team qualified for the european cup, and thus the uefa cup had legitimacy (it consisted of cracking teams, like villa, ipswich, forest, etc).   

but with so many now qualifying for the CL, I think the UEFA cup is redundant.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 23, 2012, 10:05:10 PM
yes, definitely, and *final* needs to be one game (not the old two legged affair).

but I think group games should be done away with, in all of these european competitions.

and several rounds of qualifiers are an instant turn off. 

with so many qualifying these times for the CL, I just cannot get any enthusiasm for a trophy consisting of teams who have finished far off the top tier.

in the olde days, it worked......one team qualified for the european cup, and thus the uefa cup had legitimacy (it consisted of cracking teams, like villa, ipswich, forest, etc).   

but with so many now qualifying for the CL, I think the UEFA cup is redundant.

The UEFA Cup always had more current league leaders and eventual winners that season in it at any point than the European Cup did.

I think there has to a place for something like the UEFA Cup, whether that means reducing the number of places from the bigger leagues and limiting overall places in the CL. I agree Dude with no qualifying rounds, as that that dilutes the quality too much.

The three old competitions each had their own identity and I regret the fact we never got to win the Cup Winners Cup, especially as both the Bitters and the Mancs have, and the Mancs have a chance to be the first British team to win all three European trophies.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 23, 2012, 10:07:21 PM
I think the UEFA cup is redundant.
I disagree, if Guus Hiddink is bringing an expensively assembled outfit
to Anfield, then I can't see how anything other than a 100% effort to win
the game is acceptable.

I view the Reading/Anzhi/Everton sequence as a good early test of the
gaffer's decision making ability, flexibility & resourcefulness. Ok, put out the
best-ish 1st eleven against one of the weakest teams in the division at
home coming off the back of the international break and get a 1-0 result.
Now can he follow that up with 2 more results?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 23, 2012, 10:17:36 PM
I think there has to a place for something like the UEFA Cup, whether that means reducing the number of places from the bigger leagues and limiting overall places in the CL. I agree Dude with no qualifying rounds, as that that dilutes the quality too much.

The three old competitions each had their own identity and I regret the fact we never got to win the Cup Winners Cup, especially as both the Bitters and the Mancs have, and the Mancs have a chance to be the first British team to win all three European trophies.

the CL is the big money-spinner, Tes, and thus they are never gonna do away with their lucrative group stages, involving the national leagues winners and also-rans.

hence, if it were me, I would re-introduce the Cup Winners Cup (and do away with the UEFA Cup).

a two-legged knock out Cup Winners cup, involving say 32 teams, that have won the equivalent of the fa and league cups, in their respective nations.....with a one legged final.

it would be a quick tournament (no endless group games or qualifiers), and it would be exciting.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 23, 2012, 10:21:15 PM
We HAVE to save Suarez for Everton. We need him to save his energy for our league games until January.

My team tomorrow would be:- Jones, Wisdom, Carra, Coates, Enrique, Henderson, Sahin, Shelvey, Downing, Yesil, Assaidi
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 23, 2012, 10:33:59 PM
We HAVE to save Suarez for Everton. We need him to save his energy for our league games until January.

My team tomorrow would be:- Jones, Wisdom, Carra, Coates, Enrique, Henderson, Sahin, Shelvey, Downing, Yesil, Assaidi
The question is did we need him for Reading??

Do you think there's enough experience in that first 11?

Enrique?

Anyway, if this team is capable of taking on the leaders of the Russian league, then surely
it was capable of beating the mighty Reading?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 23, 2012, 10:45:36 PM
the CL is the big money-spinner, Tes, and thus they are never gonna do away with their lucrative group stages, involving the national leagues winners and also-rans.

hence, if it were me, I would re-introduce the Cup Winners Cup (and do away with the UEFA Cup).

a two-legged knock out Cup Winners cup, involving say 32 teams, that have won the equivalent of the fa and league cups, in their respective nations.....with a one legged final.

it would be a quick tournament (no endless group games or qualifiers), and it would be exciting.

Dude, you've just exiled us from European competition for (I'll everyone else fill in the number) years.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 23, 2012, 10:51:51 PM
Dude, you've just exiled us from European competition for (I'll everyone else fill in the number) years.

we'd have qualified this season, with our league cup victory.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 23, 2012, 11:03:01 PM
we'd have qualified this season, with our league cup victory.

Exactly, but previous to that spent six seasons without. I agree that the bloated commercial nature of the CL overshadows anything that isn't a very different kind of competition, like the re-invented Cup Winners Cup would be, and that fits a niche, but from a selfish point of view, we'd either have to extend the amount of teams that qualified from the PL or be prepared to be exiled, by which time, if FFP does work remotely like it's title suggests, then we could be permanently stuck on the outside, looking enviously upwards.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 23, 2012, 11:07:35 PM
Exactly, but previous to that spent six seasons without. I agree that the bloated commercial nature of the CL overshadows anything that isn't a very different kind of competition, like the re-invented Cup Winners Cup would be, and that fits a niche, but from a selfish point of view, we'd either have to extend the amount of teams that qualified from the PL or be prepared to be exiled, by which time, if FFP does work remotely like it's title suggests, then we could be permanently stuck on the outside, looking enviously upwards.

so we design competitions around Liverpool?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 23, 2012, 11:17:13 PM
so we design competitions around Liverpool?

If the CL was designed around the sport of football we'd have room for the UEFA Cup as was. I'm not very good at this 'bling thing' where football's concerned am I?

I don't want to lose the likes of us, Ajax, Bayern etc from European competition if we're all to be replaced by the Chelseas, Man Citys, PSGs (modern day), Anzis etc so if that means designing competitions where sporting hard work can succeed and not just become a 'war of the wallets' then the answer's 'yes', but I know what you were meaning with your question.  ;)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 23, 2012, 11:24:29 PM
If the CL was designed around the sport of football we'd have room for the UEFA Cup as was. I'm not very good at this 'bling thing' where football's concerned am I?

I don't want to lose the likes of us, Ajax, Bayern etc from European competition if we're all to be replaced by the Chelseas, Man Citys, PSGs (modern day), Anzis etc so if that means designing competitions where sporting hard work can succeed and not just become a 'war of the wallets' then the answer's 'yes', but I know what you were meaning with your question.  ;)

football always was my first passion, Tes.  If we as a club are not good enough, then we have to live with that, or else try harder.

but we both know, that if there is to be a chance of us competing, on a level playing field, then the Financial fair Play regulations have to work.

and i think we are both holding our breath on that score.  Football will be dead, as a competitive sport, if the rules do not work.   Heck, competition is already dead.  It's the same teams winning the same leagues and the same CL semi-finalists, etc each year.

The sport that I grew up with, and loved dearly, needs to be rediscovered.  I think the massive foreign monies are the fore-runner for new financial streams.....otherwise why are so many foreigners investing/speculating in english and european football.  Will that elite (very wealthy people) allow the authorities to make the financial rules work?  Or will they lobby, or bind them up in endless court cases.

I hope and pray the new rules have a major impact.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 24, 2012, 12:03:06 AM
football always was my first passion, Tes.  If we as a club are not good enough, then we have to live with that, or else try harder.

but we both know, that if there is to be a chance of us competing, on a level playing field, then the Financial fair Play regulations have to work.

and i think we are both holding our breath on that score.  Football will be dead, as a competitive sport, if the rules do not work.   Heck, competition is already dead.  It's the same teams winning the same leagues and the same CL semi-finalists, etc each year.

The sport that I grew up with, and loved dearly, needs to be rediscovered.  I think the massive foreign monies are the fore-runner for new financial streams.....otherwise why are so many foreigners investing/speculating in english and european football.  Will that elite (very wealthy people) allow the authorities to make the financial rules work?  Or will they lobby, or bind them up in endless court cases.

I hope and pray the new rules have a major impact.

When I read (even though they are just rumours) that Abramovich wants to spend £48M on Falcao or is prepared to pay a 29 y.o Yaya Toure £300k a week to come and play for Chelsea, then I have my doubts.

The massive new TV deal should have seen clubs receiving more than enough just from that source to fund transfers and wages and therefore be able to see ticket prices return to a sensible level, but all it will do is fund another round of wage inflation.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 24, 2012, 01:43:14 PM
When I read (even though they are just rumours) that Abramovich wants to spend £48M on Falcao or is prepared to pay a 29 y.o Yaya Toure £300k a week to come and play for Chelsea, then I have my doubts.

The massive new TV deal should have seen clubs receiving more than enough just from that source to fund transfers and wages and therefore be able to see ticket prices return to a sensible level, but all it will do is fund another round of wage inflation.

yes, chelsea seem to to-and-fro re the new financial rules.  One summer they seem to be changing their spending habits, and then a few months later, they are speculating about spending big again. 

these senior people in the game, will be privy to more information than us.......so as you say, it must be highly doubtful, as to the success of these new rules.

the key issue I see, is the ability to transparently deal with items in the balance sheet.  Will the new regulations be able to successfully cover money pumped in via sponsorship deals, for example.    If (for example) the Qatar sheik owner of Manchester Rovers, pumps in one billion dollars (under the guise of a sponsorship deal) via some anonymously owned corporation in the middle east, how will UEFA's accountants ever get to the bottom of the source of the funds.  And how would they begin to regulate, what is and is not, a fair price for sponsoring a major club. 

UEFA will have to 1) get involved in the free market mechanism; 2) rule on what is and is not a genuine sponsorship price level; and 3) take on VERY wealthy foreign individuals, most likely in the courts. 

Interesting years ahead. 

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 24, 2012, 03:55:46 PM
yes, chelsea seem to to-and-fro re the new financial rules.  One summer they seem to be changing their spending habits, and then a few months later, they are speculating about spending big again. 

these senior people in the game, will be privy to more information than us.......so as you say, it must be highly doubtful, as to the success of these new rules.

the key issue I see, is the ability to transparently deal with items in the balance sheet.  Will the new regulations be able to successfully cover money pumped in via sponsorship deals, for example.    If (for example) the Qatar sheik owner of Manchester Rovers, pumps in one billion dollars (under the guise of a sponsorship deal) via some anonymously owned corporation in the middle east, how will UEFA's accountants ever get to the bottom of the source of the funds.  And how would they begin to regulate, what is and is not, a fair price for sponsoring a major club. 

UEFA will have to 1) get involved in the free market mechanism; 2) rule on what is and is not a genuine sponsorship price level; and 3) take on VERY wealthy foreign individuals, most likely in the courts. 

Interesting years ahead.

Then there's the EU laws. I'd imagine that telling a company who they can or can't be sponsored by or what they can and can't earn from that sponsorship infringes on some EU law, maybe something along the lines of 'restriction of trade'.

The more you look at it the harder it seems that they can introduce a set of rules that does stop rich owners from injecting finance into the club. It's not just rules of a competition as a sporting event, they are rules which are governing businesses also.

Abramovich was all for FFP, according to UEFA, which tells me he's already seen the loopholes or realises that there are EU laws that can be used to overcome aspects of it.

I worry that FSG naively think it will work in the same limiting and equalising way that American sports are set up, and that we can operate in a more even handed fashion and the benefit of clubs having rich benefactor owners will no longer make a difference.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 24, 2012, 05:03:20 PM
Then there's the EU laws. I'd imagine that telling a company who they can or can't be sponsored by or what they can and can't earn from that sponsorship infringes on some EU law, maybe something along the lines of 'restriction of trade'.

The more you look at it the harder it seems that they can introduce a set of rules that does stop rich owners from injecting finance into the club. It's not just rules of a competition as a sporting event, they are rules which are governing businesses also.

Abramovich was all for FFP, according to UEFA, which tells me he's already seen the loopholes or realises that there are EU laws that can be used to overcome aspects of it.

I worry that FSG naively think it will work in the same limiting and equalising way that American sports are set up, and that we can operate in a more even handed fashion and the benefit of clubs having rich benefactor owners will no longer make a difference.

yes, the EU laws also have to be adhered to..........and as you say, football is a business, thus trying to stop owners pumping in money seems an illegal intrusion into the markets.

another good reason for Britain getting out of the EU!!   :)

or here is one for you to ponder.....this would turn everything on it's head.  What if the regular clubs started a breakaway league......and didn't invite the three big spenders (city, united, chelsea).   The breakaway clubs could negotiate a new set of fair financial rules, which they would operate under....and they might even invite the rest of the league clubs to join....thus recreating the old division 1, 2, 3 and 4 format.

just a thought for consideration.

and it's not as if clubs would hesitate because of less premiership money.....because in the premiership, they are nearly all making losses as it stands.

the big clubs do not hold all the aces.....the rest of the clubs need to understand that.  The tail has been wagging the dog for too long.  Football needs to tell the sheiks, commies and yanks at City, Utd and Chelsea, to
take a hike. 

Tell them to go off and form their own european elite league.  How long would it be before folks get fed up watching Barca play Chelsea...and United play AC Milan, in a small european premiership with no relegation or promotion? 

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 24, 2012, 09:00:37 PM
Dude, I imagine that you would get around EU law with what you've suggested. The rules wouldn't be being changed to an existing competition. If clubs don't agree to them they don't sign up and join in the first place.

The rules are set out for all to see. Join if you agree, don't if you don't.

It could cause a problem with UEFA competitions or if it comes under the Football League umbrella then there may be a case for giving the 'outsiders' the CL places, the Europa League go to the new first division teams.

All clubs are bound by a limited percentage of income for transfers and a further percentage for wages, or you just limit 'player recruitment' to a certain percentage, let the clubs decide how they divide the pot between wages and transfer fees.

Also, we could bring in something similar to the German model where there has to be a certain percentage of fan ownership. In Germany it's 51%. You'd never get that to start with but it could be phased in over say a 10-15 year period.

It would be so good to get the sport back as the heart of the competition.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 24, 2012, 10:46:53 PM
Respect!
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A5_woiXCEAEl7zN.jpg)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 24, 2012, 11:23:08 PM
Dude, I imagine that you would get around EU law with what you've suggested. The rules wouldn't be being changed to an existing competition. If clubs don't agree to them they don't sign up and join in the first place.

The rules are set out for all to see. Join if you agree, don't if you don't.

It could cause a problem with UEFA competitions or if it comes under the Football League umbrella then there may be a case for giving the 'outsiders' the CL places, the Europa League go to the new first division teams.

All clubs are bound by a limited percentage of income for transfers and a further percentage for wages, or you just limit 'player recruitment' to a certain percentage, let the clubs decide how they divide the pot between wages and transfer fees.

Also, we could bring in something similar to the German model where there has to be a certain percentage of fan ownership. In Germany it's 51%. You'd never get that to start with but it could be phased in over say a 10-15 year period.

It would be so good to get the sport back as the heart of the competition.

yes, the German model has a lot going for it.  I like the 51 percent idea.

re future CL places.......yes, in the short-term, UEFA may have to award the CL places to the *outsiders sheik commie league*......but such an elite primadonna euro league would be short-lived.......because sponsors would not be interested in it (and if they have their own league, of say Europe's wealthiest 16 teams,  then what would be the point of the same 16 teams being in a CL competition.....4 groups of 4, less group money, same teams playing each other, etc.  Sponsors would run away. 

so, the notion of the non-elite clubs breaking away, and re-establishing the old national league formats, has some merit.  By going that direction, the result will be that the big rich clubs will be hamstrung....totally snookered. 

but I can dream.

 

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 25, 2012, 12:33:11 AM
yes, the German model has a lot going for it.  I like the 51 percent idea.

re future CL places.......yes, in the short-term, UEFA may have to award the CL places to the *outsiders sheik commie league*......but such an elite primadonna euro league would be short-lived.......because sponsors would not be interested in it (and if they have their own league, of say Europe's wealthiest 16 teams,  then what would be the point of the same 16 teams being in a CL competition.....4 groups of 4, less group money, same teams playing each other, etc.  Sponsors would run away. 

so, the notion of the non-elite clubs breaking away, and re-establishing the old national league formats, has some merit.  By going that direction, the result will be that the big rich clubs will be hamstrung....totally snookered. 

but I can dream.

I always find this whole idea of a European breakaway league laughable, as you'd have very few away fans at any match. How can fans afford to travel Europe wide to 15+ away games? The clubs forget that whilst they and the players may have the resources, the fans are in a different universe financially.

Then again, when was the last time the fans were considered in any decision?

I think it's about time that the lower divisions, probably with the exception of the Championship, became regionalised as the old Division 3 was. It would help clubs reduce the outlay on travel and accomodation, as well as reducing the cost for the fans.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 25, 2012, 12:43:13 AM
This is going to be one hell of a selection dilemma.

Originally on the back of the performance vs. Arsenal,
after Europa league action the policy appeared to be
cautious in relation to selection in Europe, but Udinese
messed that up (1 wonders was the desperation to win
that night, with this tie in mind).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/9631895/Liverpool-manager-Brendan-Rodgers-will-risk-Luis-Suarez-and-Steven-Gerrard-in-Europa-Cup.html

The problem of course is the personnel expended in the Reading
game after the international break and the real risk of injury if
they're overplayed bearing in mind that Luis was at altitude half
way round the world last week. The kids are too inexperienced to
go up against an up and coming ambitious Russian side with
a well travelled manager. And the whole thing is compounded by
our striker crisis!

In some respects it's a lose-lose situation.

I agree (for once!) with Ed224, Suarez should be on the bench. No
room for Suso either methinks. I think there's a role for Stevie from
the start (take him off later?). I suppose the absence of Felliani will
shape our lineup against the Blues.

So who the hell do we play up front?? We only need 1 goal (from a set
piece?) if we keep a clean sheet against Eto.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on October 25, 2012, 03:04:03 PM
I always find this whole idea of a European breakaway league laughable, as you'd have very few away fans at any match. How can fans afford to travel Europe wide to 15+ away games? The clubs forget that whilst they and the players may have the resources, the fans are in a different universe financially.

Then again, when was the last time the fans were considered in any decision?

I think it's about time that the lower divisions, probably with the exception of the Championship, became regionalised as the old Division 3 was. It would help clubs reduce the outlay on travel and accomodation, as well as reducing the cost for the fans.

yes, the whole idea of an elite breakaway European premiership was always laughable.  The other clubs should have called their bluff long before now.  Heck, it would be awesome if they did breakaway, and let the rest of us get on with it.  It would be great for the sport.....it would be competitive again.

good point re regionalised leagues again.  Money is tight for fans, and also for lower league clubs, so local fixtures would be welcome for all.



Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 25, 2012, 05:19:30 PM
Where's that old record I have lying around somewhere...
the one "Stevie to the rescue"  :)

I fancy him to score tonight.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 25, 2012, 10:05:53 PM
Where's that old record I have lying around somewhere...
the one "Stevie to the rescue"  :)

I fancy him to score tonight.

Stevie Downing you mean? Gerrard had a good first half. Didn't really had the strength to keep the quality and presence up for this high-tempo game. Surez had a stinker and I really think he didn't deserve 90 minutes being back to his worst  behaviour. All his detractors got ammunition tonight. He's a disgrace indeed when he plays like he did tonight.

All in all our first half was brilliant and they hardly got over the half-line. After the goal we became a tad disjointed and lost the plot. Given the number of clear cut chances created by both teams I think the scoreline is somewhat flattering.

Many players didn't raise to the occasion including especially you Mr. Sahin and Mr. Suarez. Shelvey very good for an hour but faded so did Assaidi who had his best game in a red shirt.

Hopefully we can raise our game come Sunday. Good to see us lead the group tho, thank you very much Yong Boys.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 25, 2012, 10:10:02 PM
Stevie Downing you mean?
A frickin' typo! it's that dusty old number "Stewie to the rescue"  :P  ;D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 25, 2012, 10:32:40 PM
Martin,

Can't believe you didn't mention Wisdom. Very good performance from someone so young. RB slot could be his for many years to come.

3 clean sheets on the row. I'd rather have a 1-0 than 2-1.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 25, 2012, 10:34:38 PM
A frickin' typo! it's that dusty old number "Stewie to the rescue"  :P  ;D


Down(ing) with them damn typo's. They're an abomination I say.

Oh, and did I mention Wisdom had another absolutely brilliant game? Sorry Kelly,once you get back  your chance to get a game will be to get past Skrtl in the pecking order. Well, I always thought of Martin as a CB anyroad.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 25, 2012, 10:36:10 PM
Martin,

Can't believe you didn't mention Wisdom. Very good performance from someone so young. RB slot could be his for many years to come.

3 clean sheets on the row. I'd rather have a 1-0 than 2-1.

Is right Ray, please see my post above. It's not could, however, it's will be for all I can tell from having watched this stupid game for some 30 odd years.

The problem with 1-0's is it only take a small mistake and the points are gone. fork I'd love to win it on Sunday but it's gonna be a big ask from the team. Especially as Suarez seems to completely have lost his form and Gerrard not able to perform past the 60th minute. We need at least 2 goals on Sunday to clinch a point. Shelvey to score?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 25, 2012, 10:39:49 PM
Is right Ray, please see my post above. It's not could, however, it's will be for all I can tell from having watched this stupid game for some odd 30 years.

Amazing isn't it how someone can break into the first team so quickly and make such an impact. I too was thinking about Kelly and when he returns there could be some competition for CB positions. That's what makes players raise their game!

Just need to sharpen up at the other end and get more players into the penalty area.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 25, 2012, 10:45:07 PM
Amazing isn't it how someone can break into the first team so quickly and make such an impact. I too was thinking about Kelly and when he returns there could be some competition for CB positions. That's what makes players raise their game!

Just need to sharpen up at the other end and get more players into the penalty area.


Agree completely. Even tho I thought Raheem was lively and good when he came on you really can tell he's stil some years from being the finished article. That's not the case reagarding Andre tho, it's like he was made to play RB. I'd say he's the greatest talent of them all.

We need a break-through player that can threaten on his own thro the center. Suarez alwasy does it from the wings which makes it easier to control the other players/get a leg in the way. Things are falling into place at a higher pace than I thought possible. :) As you said. 3 clean sheetts indicates Brendan and the team are quick learners!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 26, 2012, 01:38:11 AM
3 clean sheetts indicates Brendan and the team are quick learners!
Aint seen the game yet.

Anyway, results and clean sheets is what i called for so i can have
no arguments with your man on that score.

He'll need to something about our striker crisis before it does something about it.

Good to see also that tonight we didn't start with either Suso or Sterling and were
making better use of the squad with Downing and Assaidi (something I had in mind
for the Reading game). It's not that I have anything against the young ones but just
find it depressing when they are starting consecutive 90 minute games. He's made
his point that youth will get a chance, now they have to learn about consistent 90
minute performances. Swap them in and out in a mutually beneficial way. Would like
to see Henderson get some game time as well, feel he offers us something different
in midfield.

Regards Wisdom, ffs lads played  a handful of games, sure he's a big strong lad which
i like to see at the back but give him a break and expect him to make mistakes instead of
building him up into the Messiah.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on October 26, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
Aint seen the game yet.

Anyway, results and clean sheets is what i called for so i can have
no arguments with your man on that score.

He'll need to something about our striker crisis before it does something about it.

Good to see also that tonight we didn't start with either Suso or Sterling and were
making better use of the squad with Downing and Assaidi (something I had in mind
for the Reading game). It's not that I have anything against the young ones but just
find it depressing when they are starting consecutive 90 minute games. He's made
his point that youth will get a chance, now they have to learn about consistent 90
minute performances. Swap them in and out in a mutually beneficial way. Would like
to see Henderson get some game time as well, feel he offers us something different
in midfield.

Regards Wisdom, ffs lads played  a handful of games, sure he's a big strong lad which
i like to see at the back but give him a break and expect him to make mistakes instead of
building him up into the Messiah.

I'm not making him out to be some sort of Messiah, just about the most talented RB I've seen during my 30 odd years of watching this game. He already made a crucial mistake that led to a goal. Something he was quick to learn from. His positional awareness, physical and mental strength, ability to stay focused and "in" the game are all skills much older players than him often struggle to have in place before their 23rd birthday. That's why I rate him so highly.

It's true it's 3 clean sheets on the trot and that's all'an well. What is a bit of a worry tho, albeit natural, is that the palyers don't manage to play as a collective unit for 90 minutes just yet. That's why we looked so disjointed last 20 and as I said although our victory was fair it wouldn't have been daylight robbery if they'd nicked a point. As the season rolls on I think we'll see the team getting nearer to perform the way Rodgers want it to play for full 90 minutes. Until we're there, results will probably not reflect our performances leaving some quite frustrated. There is, however, an energy, a vitality and an aura of positivity around the team I haven't seen for many many years. That alone is enough improvement for the time being.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 26, 2012, 05:37:15 PM
It's true it's 3 clean sheets on the trot and that's all'an well. What is a bit of a worry tho, albeit natural, is that the palyers don't manage to play as a collective unit for 90 minutes just yet. That's why we looked so disjointed last 20 and as I said although our victory was fair it wouldn't have been daylight robbery if they'd nicked a point. As the season rolls on I think we'll see the team getting nearer to perform the way Rodgers want it to play for full 90 minutes. Until we're there, results will probably not reflect our performances leaving some quite frustrated. There is, however, an energy, a vitality and an aura of positivity around the team I haven't seen for many many years. That alone is enough improvement for the time being.
Anzhi look a good side and'll give us a match in Moscow.

Think Skrtel & Agger did well and Brad Jones should retain his spot against Everton.

All in all, I'm happy if we keep it tight at the back.

Yeah agree it's disjointed in the middle, Shelvey and Sahin going missing. It'll be tricky to
get that balance right in the absence of Lucas. In a nutshell dude needs to simplify the mid-field.
I get the impression Sahin would like more control to dictate things, but at the moment
with Shelvey and Stevie, too many cooks!

Assaidi done well, did a job (probably a good 60 minute shift), full of tricks.

No getting away from the striker crisis, still if we keep clean sheets we only ever need one.

Role on the toffees!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 26, 2012, 06:07:56 PM
Martin,

I thought Sahin was excellent last night.

He played as the base of the midfield in the first half and in the second before Allen's arrival. Made some important fouls, good covering of his fullbacks, particularly Downing towards the end.

He's a midfield orchestra for us. When he's playing further forward and making runs into the box, he has been guilty a few times of not tracking back fast enough and leaving open spaces in the midfield. But sitting a little deeper and dictating play, you can immediately see his intelligence starting to shine through and his defensive work improves. He made many more tackles and interceptions by being in the right place.


The most impressive thing about him for me is that the first time he has played that position for Rodgers he had complete understanding of his role.  There are still a few players who went through the whole preseason who don't understand fully how the system is supposed to work.  A part of Rodgers' system is that everyone knows where everyone else is supposed to be at a level deeper than conscious thought, get the ball and be able to confidently move it on as fast as possible.  Sahin looks as though he has that almost to the same level as Allen already.  I really hope that he wants to play regularly in this system that players enjoy.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 26, 2012, 06:40:01 PM
He's a midfield orchestra for us.
Where does he store the trombone, trumpets, violins and cymbals?

My team tomorrow would be:- Jones, Wisdom, Carra, Coates, Enrique, Henderson, Sahin, Shelvey, Downing, Yesil, Assaidi
Hmmm...you don't really get it do you?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on October 26, 2012, 07:45:33 PM
Where does he store the trombone, trumpets, violins and cymbals?
Hmmm...you don't really get it do you?

Get what? Suarez played 90mins yesterday and that will probably fork us up on Sunday. Yesil is a good talent and it would have been good to see him in action at Anfield.

I wanted to give Skrtel and Agger a break what's wrong with that? Coates needs games under his belt and Carra could have gotten a game. I also wanted Enrique to be given the opportunity to prove to us that he can get to the level he showed in his first six months. It would also have meant a rest for Johnson. Out of my midfield only Henderson didn't play and Gerrard played a needless 90 mins imo. Henderson I thought could have done a job.

So what don't I get? Oh do you mean winning in europe and going full blown for the europa league.....right....say that when Everton beat us on Sunday.

I'd rather protect our best players for the premier league and give an opportunity to our fringe players in the europa group stages then run our players into the ground because our squad is so thin.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 26, 2012, 08:23:22 PM
Get what? Suarez played 90mins yesterday and that will probably fork us up on Sunday. Yesil is a good talent and it would have been good to see him in action at Anfield.
I wasn't particularly in favour of Luis playing myself and
his performance was well below his usual standard.

I wanted to give Skrtel and Agger a break what's wrong with that?
Samuel Eto  :P The boys were immense and it's a step forward in terms
of solidifying our backline.

I also wanted Enrique to be given the opportunity to prove to us that he can get to the level he showed in his first six months.
I agree he started his career brightly at Anfield and bossed his
defensive duties excellently, but his game has been all over the shop
for quite a while now. His decision making is very poor and he requires
too many touches at the back. BR, to his credit, recently stuck him in
as a winger where he was given the simple task of running down the wing
in the final third and crossing, which he excelled at.

He hasn't done anything close to enough to convince me that he
merits a return to the starting 11. A liability, 'til he sorts out and simplifies
his game.

Out of my midfield only Henderson didn't play and Gerrard played a needless 90 mins imo. Henderson I thought could have done a job.
I disagree, Stevie was required, we needed a legend to offset theirs. There is a role
for Henderson to balance out certain midfield formations and I'd argue that his
stamina will be key for resting other players (e.g. Gerrard) in the coming weeks.

So what don't I get? Oh do you mean winning in europe and going full blown for the europa league.....right....say that when Everton beat us on Sunday.
No, you miss a few points. The Anzhi project is a different kind of beast to us.
They needed to be put in their place at Anfield. Their manager is amongst the
best travelled in world football, it was important to respect the tie. We have a proud
tradition in Europe and getting beat twice on the trot at home would have sent out
the wrong message.

As regards the Europa league, the longer we stay in it the better. It is important for
the manager, squad and club to get that exposure. It's an ok tournament, especially
in the latter stages and would be a tremendous achievement to win it.

Derbies are funny games and don't always pan out the way you'd think. I'd stick Stevie
on the bench, give Jonjo and Hendo their head and settle for 0-0 (and some terrible
football if we can sneek a win  :) )

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 26, 2012, 08:57:28 PM
Martin,

Can't believe you didn't mention Wisdom. Very good performance from someone so young. RB slot could be his for many years to come.

3 clean sheets on the row. I'd rather have a 1-0 than 2-1.

It's hard to remember he's 19 with only a handful of appearances at first team level. Mentally and physically, it's all there. And all this playing out of position.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 26, 2012, 09:38:19 PM
Downing proved to be the exception that proved his own rule.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 26, 2012, 10:29:16 PM
It's hard to remember he's 19 with only a handful of appearances at first team level. Mentally and physically, it's all there. And all this playing out of position.
Some players just fit in and you never see it coming. I can remember all the hype about Sterling when he played in the reserves but nothing about Andre. A very pleasant surprise.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 26, 2012, 11:37:20 PM
Some players just fit in and you never see it coming. I can remember all the hype about Sterling when he played in the reserves but nothing about Andre. A very pleasant surprise.

It is a pleasant surprise, Ray, and especially as he played most of his games for the junior teams at centre half. We hear about young players that are highly rated and then either never see them and they eventually get released or simply can't make the step up when given a chance.

Darren Potter and John Welsh (especially) were in that catagory when Rafa first arrived. They had chances but simply couldn't bring their junior performances on to a higher stage.


Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 26, 2012, 11:57:10 PM
Some players just fit in and you never see it coming. I can remember all the hype about Sterling when he played in the reserves but nothing about Andre. A very pleasant surprise.
The lad's is more a natural centre back (built like one anyway!),
than RB. He's come in and been reasonably composed and solid,
but Kelly offers us more penetration in attack. Not sure how quick
Wisdom is over long distances and aint seen him cross a ball yet.

It's good that he's come in and is getting first team experience
without hurting us (arguably at the expense of some crosses from
the right, but seen as we never got anyone in the box anyway, it don't
really matter  :) ). Wasn't there a lad from N.I. mcLachlan or something
who also showed some promise at RB on the tour.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 27, 2012, 12:27:50 AM
The lad's is more a natural centre back (built like one anyway!),
than RB. He's come in and been reasonably composed and solid,
but Kelly offers us more penetration in attack. Not sure how quick
Wisdom is over long distances and aint seen him cross a ball yet.

It's good that he's come in and is getting first team experience
without hurting us (arguably at the expense of some crosses from
the right, but seen as we never got anyone in the box anyway, it don't
really matter  :) ). Wasn't there a lad from N.I. mcLachlan or something
who also showed some promise at RB on the tour.

Ryan McLaughlin. The first thing you want a defender to do is be able to defend, even an attacking full back. Gary Neville and Dennis Irwin were exellent at getting forward, either taking away a player by overlapping or being played in to put in a cross. Neither had real pace or could beat a man, but both were good in the final third.
We could see Wisdom develop into a centre half or even a central midfielder, a position he's played once or twice for the juniors.
 
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 27, 2012, 11:42:43 AM
Tes / Ed,

Should Agger or Skrtel get injured could Wisdom slot in seamlessly enough at CB? Understanding is important with defenders.

Once Kelly returns it could be interesting to see who has that RB slot. Maybe Wisdom for the tighter games and Kelly for those where we could be more attacking.

It's nice to have some choice in those defensive positions. Pity we lack options up front. I hope BR is given a decent kitty for one striker with another to follow in the summer.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on October 27, 2012, 06:11:50 PM
Tes / Ed,

Should Agger or Skrtel get injured could Wisdom slot in seamlessly enough at CB?

Wouldn't have thought so. He's extremely lucky that he's getting game time at
the moment. He's put in some solid performances and has looked composed.

I'd argue that it'd be a massive leap to throw him in at CB (a huge responsibility)
for LFC. No, he needs to keep putting in the performances that he's been doing
and prove himself to be an option for the first 11 by improving and showing attributes
that go beyond basic defending e.g. confidence, decision making under pressure,
reading the game, concentration, asserting himself in the box etc. on a consistent basis.

At the moment he's showing promise and needs to make the most of the opportunity that
he's been given by making himself indispensable, imo. Bar's always higher for the new
kid, you can spot the winners who have that little extra (e.g. the header he scored against
West Brom? was an example). The ones who have the hunger to go to the top of their
profession and are not content to just make up the numbers  :)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 27, 2012, 10:01:54 PM
Tes / Ed,

Should Agger or Skrtel get injured could Wisdom slot in seamlessly enough at CB? Understanding is important with defenders.

Once Kelly returns it could be interesting to see who has that RB slot. Maybe Wisdom for the tighter games and Kelly for those where we could be more attacking.

It's nice to have some choice in those defensive positions. Pity we lack options up front. I hope BR is given a decent kitty for one striker with another to follow in the summer.

Ray, I wouldn't like to see it. Whilst he has played centre half more often for the junior teams, I think 19 is too young to pitch him in at centre half. I think centre half is a more difficult position to play than full back, with errors proving more costly, and it takes longer to really learn the position fully, or at least to a level where you wouldn't get shown up at first team level.
He has the strength, his concentration is good but a couple of degrees below what's required to play centrally. His tackling is sound, well timed, he's decent in the air, but again maybe not yet at the level required to play centrally. He's certainly composed, which is a great quality of a centre half, and doesn't seem phased at barking out the orders which is always good, showing confidence and belief in his understanding of the game.   
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 27, 2012, 10:08:51 PM
The good thing with introducing Andre at full back is he'll get the chance to use the ball more and be more confident with it at his feet. Also, the amount of centre backs you see that hate being dragged out on to the flank or have to go and cover out wide. Hopefully this won't be a problem if Andre does move to centre half later.

He reminds me a bit of a young Sol Campbell. I hope that doesn't jinx him.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 27, 2012, 10:11:19 PM
Ed / Tes,

You both make a valid case for keeping him at RB and I agree. The central defence is always critical should a mistake be made. Look at Skrtel's against City and he's experienced.

Actually after I posted I thought about Coates who has been picked for his country but not regularly for LFC. He's hardly featured. Do you think he has a future at LFC?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 27, 2012, 10:50:08 PM
Ed / Tes,

You both make a valid case for keeping him at RB and I agree. The central defence is always critical should a mistake be made. Look at Skrtel's against City and he's experienced.

Actually after I posted I thought about Coates who has been picked for his country but not regularly for LFC. He's hardly featured. Do you think he has a future at LFC?

Definately. I like what I've seen so far but I think it's been sensible to introduce him to English football slowly. The style of football he experiences at International level will be what's he's used to, especially playing within  the South American qualifying group.
Again, as a younger player in that position it's critical to ease him in and especially to a different style of football, especially when he will have to deal with a more aerially orientated attack than what he will have experienced in South America.
He certainly looks like he can cope with the one on one physicality and he's comfortable on the ball, which will help him with our style of play. If Skrtel has a spell out injured (which he has most seasons) I wouldn't be too worried about Coates coming in. The big test would be as to whether he could keep his concentration up for the whole 90 minutes for a run of games, but he can only really learn that through experience anyway.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 28, 2012, 10:27:47 AM
Tes,

He's being introduced slowly, that's for sure. With a midweek game in the League Cup at home against Swansea I think it would be an ideal time to give him a run out. S or A would surely benefit from a rest and one of them would sit alongside him for experience.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 28, 2012, 08:23:39 PM
Got on in the Derby. I'd like to see the frequency he plays increased so more pressure can be put on Skrtel.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 28, 2012, 10:07:26 PM
Got on in the Derby. I'd like to see the frequency he plays increased so more pressure can be put on Skrtel.

And Agger too presumably. No-one should feel they're irreplacable. I thought Skrtel had a pretty good game today.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 29, 2012, 10:37:04 PM
And Agger too presumably. No-one should feel they're irreplacable. I thought Skrtel had a pretty good game today.

After a shaky start to the season, Skrtel's picked his form up. Credit to him. I thought Coates dealt with the game and the occasion well. He looks like nothing phases him.

The run around the back of Jagielka and the presence of mind to head back across the goal, not at it, showed a calmness considering we were deep in injury time and how often do you see a player put in an attempt on goal when they weren't best positioned to do so.

Your point about Agger can be extended to Reina. I wonder how he's feeling at the moment.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 30, 2012, 07:04:38 PM
Tes,

I agree about Ralph. I thought he played really well in the second half and should start tomorow evening against Swansea. And remember that goal against QPR last season. This lad promises much.

I don't know how close to fitness Pepe was but Jones deserved to start. Pepe will probably return tomorrow. I read today Doni is on his way back after a few months sorting out personal problems. That will spice up the 'keeper position but I still expect Pepe to be our No 1 for a while yet.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 30, 2012, 07:24:42 PM
Tes,

I agree about Ralph.


 :D  :D 


I don't know how close to fitness Pepe was but Jones deserved to start. Pepe will probably return tomorrow. I read today Doni is on his way back after a few months sorting out personal problems. That will spice up the 'keeper position but I still expect Pepe to be our No 1 for a while yet.

I agree with all that Ray, but it's nice to see competition for places and Jones attempting to step and provide some competition for Pepe. Hopefully Doni can join in too and the three of them can push eachother which can only benefit us.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on October 30, 2012, 07:30:38 PM
Tes, what I thought was interesting was Brad Jones' distribution. Unlike Pepe he invariably cleared well upfield rather than to the nearesr defender. I couldn't decide if that was down to Everton tactics of closng the defenders down or his preference of long clearances.

Either way it does well to mix things up and someone else made the same point otherwise you start to become predictable.

And yes, another keeper will have them all competing and BR seems to like to give everyone a chance so it bodes well.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on October 30, 2012, 10:47:54 PM
Tes, what I thought was interesting was Brad Jones' distribution. Unlike Pepe he invariably cleared well upfield rather than to the nearesr defender. I couldn't decide if that was down to Everton tactics of closng the defenders down or his preference of long clearances.

Partly it may have been down to playing it safe. If he gives the ball to the defender, who is then closed down and a chance or goal comes from it, then he would face questions and his place be under threat.
Or it may have been good decision making. Go long rather than put your defenders under pressure for the sake of playing out from the back irrespective.
It also tends to be the more normal way goalkeepers play in English football, throwing or kicking upfield rather than rolling out to a defender. Jones has spent most of his professional career in England so it would be a more natural thing to do. It's quite ironic that in doing what would seem a more prudent thing and avoiding put his defence under any more pressure than they were already under also given the nature and intensity of the game, that he was responsible for a goal with a poor choice of punch. Still, it clears the penalty area (which is what you're coached to do, and another day the shot is off target or it hits a defender and the ball is cleared.   
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 07, 2012, 08:01:26 PM
Squad for Thursday: Jones, Gulacsi, Cole, Assaidi, Pacheco, Henderson, Coates, Downing, Wilson, Carragher, Suso, Shelvey, Coady, Yesil, Flanagan, Wisdom, Robinson, Morgan, Sama.

The youngsters look like carrying our challenge again. We've been asking for the youngsters to be given these sort of chances and whilst maybe the results haven't been as good as we would have liked, hopefully long term we will save ourselves some money and be able to focus our spending on fewer players rather than having to buy in the quantity, quite often foregoing the quality, that we've been forced to do in the past.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on November 07, 2012, 08:48:24 PM
Squad for Thursday: Jones, Gulacsi, Cole, Assaidi, Pacheco, Henderson, Coates, Downing, Wilson, Carragher, Suso, Shelvey, Coady, Yesil, Flanagan, Wisdom, Robinson, Morgan, Sama.

The youngsters look like carrying our challenge again. We've been asking for the youngsters to be given these sort of chances and whilst maybe the results haven't been as good as we would have liked, hopefully long term we will save ourselves some money and be able to focus our spending on fewer players rather than having to buy in the quantity, quite often foregoing the quality, that we've been forced to do in the past.
So long as we're not humiliated.

Thought he would have sent a side capable of grinding out a draw.

I expect us to be beat.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 07, 2012, 09:59:29 PM
So long as we're not humiliated.

Thought he would have sent a side capable of grinding out a draw.

I expect us to be beat.

That's definately a worry, but so would Luis getting badly injured and missing the next 6 months. Ed, we need those 'capable' of grinding out a draw to also be fit to do the same (or better) against Chelsea. The squad really is pitiful despite the money spent over the last few seasons, isn't it. Which looks the less arduous route, re-qualification for the Europa through the PL or by winning the trophy itself?

In one respect it's a shame Dalglish didn't remain in place to have to try and deal with the mess he helped create, but you would have to worry about the effects on his health it might have and I'd have hated to see that happen.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on November 07, 2012, 10:29:05 PM
That's definately a worry, but so would Luis getting badly injured and missing the next 6 months. Ed, we need those 'capable' of grinding out a draw to also be fit to do the same (or better) against Chelsea. The squad really is pitiful despite the money spent over the last few seasons, isn't it. Which looks the less arduous route, re-qualification for the Europa through the PL or by winning the trophy itself?

In one respect it's a shame Dalglish didn't remain in place to have to try and deal with the mess he helped create, but you would have to worry about the effects on his health it might have and I'd have hated to see that happen.
Oh no I agree absolutely that there was little point sacrificing Luis at the
expense of trying to compete at the Bridge on Sunday (bearing in mind
they had a tough tie themselves tonight). We screwed up at home against
Udinese is the problem that may or may not cost us.

I think Kenny would have relished the opportunity to compete in Europe but
it's water under the bridge now.

Anyway, It's obvious he has no interest in getting a result in Moscow, seems
literally to be a pointless exercise  :)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 07, 2012, 10:39:27 PM
We screwed up at home against Udinese is the problem that may or may not cost us.

It's not made it any easier, that's for sure. A win at home and shut up shop away from home could have seen us through, but this is Liverpool and the Liverpool way is whatever the hardest way possible is.

Not sure about Dalglish and Europe. He'd have no doubt wanted to be in European competition but I wonder how badly last season's 'tactics' would have been shown up.

Just hope the kids are all up for making a name for themselves collectively and individually.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 08, 2012, 12:42:41 PM
I wouldn't put it behind us to get a result. We meet half-way in Moscow, which for them, is quite a hostile place. I do, however, think they'll win it but if the kids can raise above their true level while they have an off-game it may just happen we get a draw. That would be enough to see us through to the last 32.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 08, 2012, 02:39:19 PM
I think Kenny would have relished the opportunity to compete in Europe but
it's water under the bridge now.

Anyway, It's obvious he has no interest in getting a result in Moscow, seems
literally to be a pointless exercise.

like Tes says, Ed, I think if we had been in the CL under Kenny (indeed, under Roy or Brendan too), we would have struggled and our limited tactical abilities shown up.  I think we would have struggled to get out of the group, farless get far in the knockout stages.

agreed, re the pointless aspect.  The focus should always be on our bread and butter, namely the league.  But in modern times, we have precious few trophies that we can win, so one wonders why we don't make a bigger effort.

my feeling is that the boss is under so much pressure to revive a disasterous premiership season, that he has had to forget other trophies and focus on putting every effort into finishing as high up the league as is humanly possible.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 08, 2012, 03:47:20 PM
my feeling is that the boss is under so much pressure to revive a disasterous premiership season, that he has had to forget other trophies and focus on putting every effort into finishing as high up the league as is humanly possible.

Which, if true, makes it hard to understand. We're not going to win the league, it's highly doubtful we'll get fourth (going on what has happened so far) so re-qualification for European Europa League football must be the aim. We have to have European football to keep our profile and level of exposure as high as possible in order to attract players and sponsorships.
As we don't have CL football and we're unlikely to have it by the time the shirt sponsorship deal comes up for (re) negotiation we need to keep attracting the smaller sponsorship/partnership deals in greater quantity to try and keep our income as high as possible - we can only do it via having maximum exposure in Europe.
Also, players from other countries don't look down their nose at the Europa League quite like English based players, at least not the ones we can afford.

I think the league is worth £750K more per position (the higher up you finish) but if we put all our eggs in one basket, we risk missing out if things don't improve in the league and whilst we may finish a position or two higher, we miss out on revenue from extra EL matches this season and the chance to re-qualify by winning it.
Both 5th and/or winning the EL are big asks but whilst there's a two pronged opportunity we'd be daft to potentially make light of one whilst focusing totally on the other.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on November 08, 2012, 04:46:58 PM
Squad for Thursday: Jones, Gulacsi, Cole, Assaidi, Pacheco, Henderson, Coates, Downing, Wilson, Carragher, Suso, Shelvey, Coady, Yesil, Flanagan, Wisdom, Robinson, Morgan, Sama.

Agreed Tes...that squad shows no respect at all to Anzhi...
can't believe none of the stars are on the bench tonight at least...we get nailed 4 or 5 nil then Liverpool will get noticed for all the wrong reasons...we're out of the carling cup...and we'll probably be third in the group after tonight...
i'm always hoping...but there's blind faith and there's contingency plans...

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 08, 2012, 05:33:03 PM
I don't know why people are whinging about the team put out tonight. 

The game is over 2500 miles away, between 7-8 hours travelling time from Manchester to Moscow and the squad won't return home until tomorrow afternoon - They then face a 6 hour coach journey to London on Saturday in prepararation for the Chelsea game on Sunday!

Rodgers has to manage the squad, and that amount of travelling in short space of time is ridiculous. 

Jones, Carragher, Coates, Assaidi, Henderson, Shelvey, Cole, Downing have all played international football so despite us not sending our strongest squad to Moscow, we are hardly sending the under 15's.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on November 08, 2012, 05:37:30 PM
Top save from Jones..
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 08, 2012, 05:55:47 PM
Top save from Jones..

Yes it was, unfortunately that last minute goal in the 1st half has buggered us.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on November 08, 2012, 07:17:54 PM
Hmmm at least it wasn't a thrashing and the young lads did pretty well considering...
Would have been nice to have some experience on the bench cos anzhi were there for the taking...but all we have to do now is win our last 2 games..depends if we take them seriously...cos if we don't no matter how well the youngsters play we'll be out...
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on November 08, 2012, 07:32:22 PM
Hmmm at least it wasn't a thrashing and the young lads did pretty well considering...
Would have been nice to have some experience on the bench cos anzhi were there for the taking...but all we have to do now is win our last 2 games..depends if we take them seriously...cos if we don't no matter how well the youngsters play we'll be out...

Agree completely!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 08, 2012, 07:39:53 PM
I don't know why people are whinging about the team put out tonight. 


Who's 'whinging', as you put it?  Big, big difference between raising concerns, which are what people are doing and 'whinging'.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 08, 2012, 09:14:45 PM
Which, if true, makes it hard to understand. We're not going to win the league, it's highly doubtful we'll get fourth (going on what has happened so far) so re-qualification for European Europa League football must be the aim. We have to have European football to keep our profile and level of exposure as high as possible in order to attract players and sponsorships.
As we don't have CL football and we're unlikely to have it by the time the shirt sponsorship deal comes up for (re) negotiation we need to keep attracting the smaller sponsorship/partnership deals in greater quantity to try and keep our income as high as possible - we can only do it via having maximum exposure in Europe.
Also, players from other countries don't look down their nose at the Europa League quite like English based players, at least not the ones we can afford.

I think the league is worth £750K more per position (the higher up you finish) but if we put all our eggs in one basket, we risk missing out if things don't improve in the league and whilst we may finish a position or two higher, we miss out on revenue from extra EL matches this season and the chance to re-qualify by winning it.
Both 5th and/or winning the EL are big asks but whilst there's a two pronged opportunity we'd be daft to potentially make light of one whilst focusing totally on the other.

totally agree.

finishing 7th, 8th or 9th, is a tiny difference, and not worth jettisoning a decent chance to win a Europa or League Cup for.

to be honest, I am not sure that it is final league position that caused this lineup tonight.  I think if he had used our top players tonight, there was a fear (on his part) of getting whipped at Chelsea this weekend.  Even at this early point, i suspect our boss is focussing primarily on personal survival.  A 4 or 5 nil drubbing at Chelsea could have major repercussions for his job at Anfield.

I entirely understand why he would do that (I would most likely do the same thing myself, in the same circumstances).  But for the club, especially one of our stature and pedigree, it is disheartening.  We  are all about winning trophies.  It is in our DNA.


Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 08, 2012, 09:30:58 PM
We  are were all about winning trophies. it is disheartening.   
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 08, 2012, 11:41:51 PM
I remember once upon a time when we had a manager who couldn't build on a win against a top team as he was hellbent on getting through in Europe. Horrible days that. 1-0 with progression in our own hands and a rested squad ahead of the important game at the Bridge. Now that really really makes for poor squad management. Rodgers out!!!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 08, 2012, 11:48:36 PM
I remember once upon a time when we had a manager who couldn't build on a win against a top team as he was hellbent on getting through in Europe. Horrible days that.

on the bright side Martin, it looks like you're never gonna have to worry about such days again.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 09, 2012, 09:00:17 AM
on the bright side Martin, it looks like you're never gonna have to worry about such days again.

There you go matey. Nothing bad that doesn't bring anything good with it, right?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 09, 2012, 01:44:22 PM
totally agree.

finishing 7th, 8th or 9th, is a tiny difference, and not worth jettisoning a decent chance to win a Europa or League Cup for.

to be honest, I am not sure that it is final league position that caused this lineup tonight.  I think if he had used our top players tonight, there was a fear (on his part) of getting whipped at Chelsea this weekend.  Even at this early point, i suspect our boss is focussing primarily on personal survival.  A 4 or 5 nil drubbing at Chelsea could have major repercussions for his job at Anfield.

I entirely understand why he would do that (I would most likely do the same thing myself, in the same circumstances).  But for the club, especially one of our stature and pedigree, it is disheartening.  We  are all about winning trophies.  It is in our DNA.

Personal survival GTFO dumbass.

We beat Young Boys and we are through 99% so shut up.

The league is more important than the europa. We have to prioritise the league first - at this stage of the season.

We need a fit Suarez to stand any chance against this chelsea team. Even with him we will most likely lose, however given his run of form, then a fit and rested Suarez will cause them problems. Same for Gerrard.

As it is the likes of Suso, Morgan, Pacheco, Flanagan each got more minutes to aid their development. The likes of Cole, Downing as useless as they were got minutes to show Rodgers what they could do. As it is it only reinforced Rodgers was correct in Making Suso and Sterling ahead of them now.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 09, 2012, 09:11:04 PM
The league is more important than the europa. We have to prioritise the league first - at this stage of the season.

Doesn't that run the danger of putting everything on black? One way or the other we have to be back in European competition next season to help attract players and sponsors alike, and winning the Europa League is one of those ways. We're about a quarter of the way through the league so we're not yet at the sh!t or bust stage.
We don't have that long left on the Standard Chartered deal but being on the European stage will help attract as good a deal as possible (or at least better than if we're not exposig our shirt sponsor to a European market).

Definately the fixture schedule could have been kinder than to give us Chelsea after delving behind the iron curtain.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 21, 2012, 10:26:51 PM
The manager's pledged to name a full strength team against Young Boys. Excellent. Let's win this game and put qualification to bed.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 22, 2012, 09:04:53 AM
The manager's pledged to name a full strength team against Young Boys. Excellent. Let's win this game and put qualification to bed.

Eh, don't we need to get a result in Italy as well? Is a win tonite enough to secure qualification to the last 32?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 22, 2012, 05:26:07 PM
Eh, don't we need to get a result in Italy as well? Is a win tonite enough to secure qualification to the last 32?

I haven't done the calcs but after last round's results that was what was said on the interweb, so yes, it's true.  :D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 22, 2012, 05:33:15 PM
If we beat Young Boys that knocks them out of contention, even if they win the last game. Udinese have to win both their games to stand a chance. If they draw or lose tonight, a win for us sees us through in at least 2nd place.

And t'interweb still says 'yes'.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on November 22, 2012, 06:41:15 PM
Looks like Udinese are out!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on November 22, 2012, 07:14:03 PM
                           Reina,
Wisdom, Carragher, Skrtel,  Downing,

              Suso, Sahin, Henderson,

                Cole, Shelvey. Assaidi,

Subs: Jones, Enrique, Gerrard, Coates, Sterling, Allen, Suarez.

Looks chaotic to me. Certainly individuals out there...team?

Though he did mention something about our Prem schedule.

The idea appears to be rest the stars and give the squaddies
a chance. Throw on Stevie and Luis at the first sight of danger.
Udinese part deux!

(Sorry i forgot the bit about cries of tactical genius when he decides
on the 30 minute mark that his research and preparation were rubbish
and completely changes everything)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 22, 2012, 07:32:18 PM
Looks like Udinese are out!

So we beat Young Boys our Udinese result is immaterial as we have the perfect 'head to head' against Young Boys. We will go through in 2nd place at least. Of course we can go through as winners if Young Boys beat Anji, but if we've already beaten Young Boys then it's a dead rubber for them.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 22, 2012, 07:51:15 PM
                           Reina,
Wisdom, Carragher, Skrtel,  Downing,

              Suso, Sahin, Henderson,

                Cole, Shelvey. Assaidi,

Subs: Jones, Enrique, Gerrard, Coates, Sterling, Allen, Suarez.

Looks chaotic to me. Certainly individuals out there...team?

Though he did mention something about our Prem schedule.

The idea appears to be rest the stars and give the squaddies
a chance. Throw on Stevie and Luis at the first sight of danger.
Udinese part deux!

(Sorry i forgot the bit about cries of tactical genius when he decides
on the 30 minute mark that his research and preparation were rubbish
and completely changes everything)

Why not have Yesil up front or try N'Goo. At least we'd have a striker on the pitch.

Hasn't Joe Cole already proven himself not to be worth another game in a red shirt. What must Pacheco think?
Is Robinson injured, as surely this would be a good game to give him some experience in.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 22, 2012, 08:43:39 PM
Suppose he's hoping Jonjo likes it against YB. Looks like he got it right. Very good decision to take young Andre off, he didn't offer anything going forward effectively making us play with 10 men. Also, Suso's responding well to being taken off last game. Nice clearence by Skrtl.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 22, 2012, 08:49:50 PM
Unreal, we haven't killed this game off. Should be 3-0 by now, at least.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 22, 2012, 08:54:50 PM
Started the game quite off but after ca 20 minutes we were gnawing our way back into the game and after Steven came on there was only one team on the pitch. Long time since we created so many open chances in the first half. Need to get that 2nd as they seem to be a team that thrives on inspiration.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 22, 2012, 09:22:10 PM
Brendan needs to take off either of Assaidi or Sahin or both. We're effectively playing with a reduced team.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on November 22, 2012, 09:31:33 PM
Hmmm...Sterling or Enrique?

It's about that balance between attack and defence!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 22, 2012, 09:36:51 PM
Suarez for Suso. Weird altho he faded a bit. How many corners we had? 10? 12? How many did we threaten them on? 0

Great goal from Cole!!!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 22, 2012, 09:58:34 PM
Lololol. What a lucky side they are. Scored the two worst crackers of that club's history to get an unfair draw. But this is what happens when you can't bury sitters, don't you agree Henderson, Cole and Suso?

Really really bad we couldn't hang on to the win. But then again, the aren't likely to get a result like this any decade soon.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 22, 2012, 10:03:32 PM
Young Boys are a good team. They proven it by doing the double over Udinese.

We were really naive at the back.

Now we will have to play Suarez in Italy wasting his energy on that game when we needed to really knuckle down in the premier league now.

Personally Martin I thought we were worse with Gerrard on the pitch than when he was off it. He offered zero, nada, nothing.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 22, 2012, 10:16:43 PM
I thought we were worse with Gerrard on the pitch than when he was off it. He offered zero, nada, nothing.

agree, Edward.  But it's been like this for years.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 22, 2012, 10:18:08 PM
What a lucky side they are. Scored the two worst crackers of that club's history to get an unfair draw.

what is it - but these past three years, our opponents seem to have got much luckier.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 22, 2012, 10:47:51 PM
Personally Martin I thought we were worse with Gerrard on the pitch than when he was off it. He offered zero, nada, nothing.

Indisciplined in his passing, tried to force it when just keeping the ball moving was required and where was the leadership in the last 5 minutes calming things down and getting our players to keep hold of possession.

Their goalscorer has two touches before playing it into the forward, who laid it off unchallenged in any way, another touch and the shot, all in his own time, under no pressure at any time. Very, very naive there tonight, and as Edward says we now have to put out a full strength team to stay in the competition instead of playing a dead rubber. Don't be fooled by the fact Udinese have nothing to play for. They'd been poor before beating us, have been poor since in both this competition and Serie A, but beat us they did at Anfield, and this game is in front of their home crowd. It will be tough.

We need to stay in the competition, the club needs European exposure, players need European experience and so does the manager, as he is a complete novice at this level (European football), and that's not taking a pot at him, that's just a fact.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 22, 2012, 11:10:18 PM
BUT on the plus side if we do get knocked out it means I can still go and see us against the hammers on 4 April without it being moved to a sunday ;)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 22, 2012, 11:12:59 PM
what is it - but these past three years, our opponents seem to have got much luckier.

Come on dude, surely you could see both their goals was something out of the ordinary. Sloppy finishing cost us early qualification.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 22, 2012, 11:27:00 PM
Come on dude, surely you could see both their goals was something out of the ordinary. Sloppy finishing cost us early qualification.

Martin, their second equaliser was avoidable. Yes. the shot itself was terrific, but he shouldn't have had the time and space both before and after playing that return with the forward (Frey, I think it was). No closure on either him or the forward, far too much time and space, far too many touches with any pressure. The minutes before and that lead up to it was naivity at it's worst and we had enough experience on the pitch to have played the game out and run the clock down.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on November 22, 2012, 11:49:46 PM
Didi Hamann ‏@DietmarHamann

Disappointing result for LFC ...got to start seeing games out ...9 goals in 5 European games conceded in hardly the strongest group #toomany


Agree, the Europa league campaign is turning into an embarassment
because he can't make up his mind whether he wants to stay in it or
not.

Teams are coming to Anfield intent on getting results and we just cobble
together any old first eleven and make the rest up as the game unfolds,
followed by incredulity when we don't get a result.

What's the point in resting Gerrard, Suarez and Sterling if we always
end up bringing them on anyway.

Simply dreadful.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 12:02:35 AM
We simply don't have the squad to properly deal with both competitions. The league has to be priority, but European football is needed for adding to both the players' and manager's depth of experience and is needed by the club to keep it's profile as high as possible for sponsorship purposes and to try and attract the best players in the circumstances.

The fact that he keeps having to use the big guns shows the paucity of the squad. The owners have to step up to the plate (they'll recognise that phrase being into baseball) in this and the Summer window and back 'their man'. They wasted a season appointing a manager they ideally didn't want and allowing him to spend as much as they did. They owe this manager, the fans and the club two big windows and a proper CEO.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 12:07:18 AM
The fact that he keeps having to use the big guns shows the paucity of the squad. The owners have to step up to the plate (they'll recognise that phrase being into baseball) in this and the Summer window and back 'their man'.

I shook my head earlier when reading Rodgers saying that the owners had apologised to him about the quality of his squad.

will there ever come a point when Rodgers accepts responsibility for the failings at Anfield.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 12:13:17 AM
Didi Hamann ‏@DietmarHamann

Disappointing result for LFC ...got to start seeing games out ...9 goals in 5 European games conceded in hardly the strongest group #toomany


Agree, the Europa league campaign is turning into an embarassment
because he can't make up his mind whether he wants to stay in it or
not.

Teams are coming to Anfield intent on getting results and we just cobble
together any old first eleven and make the rest up as the game unfolds,
followed by incredulity when we don't get a result.

What's the point in resting Gerrard, Suarez and Sterling if we always
end up bringing them on anyway.

Simply dreadful.

Didi has it right.  Easy group, and Rodgers is making a pig's ar.se of it.

We should be home and hosed by now.  Instead, it's going down to the wire.  The only saving grace is that we are not in the Champions League.  Our lad's limited managerial abilities would get shown up big time on that stage.

but hey, it's hodgson's fault, it;s dalglish's fault, it's comolini;s fault, it's the lack of resources, it's the owner's fault (they have apologised to Rodgers, you know), it's rafa's fault, it's carroll's fault, it's the lack of experience and time, etc, etc.

brendan will always blame somebody/something else.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 12:20:30 AM
I shook my head earlier when reading Rodgers saying that the owners had apologised to him about the quality of his squad.

will there ever come a point when Rodgers accepts responsibility for the failings at Anfield.

He made decisions in the Summer, as did they and they all need to stand by them. Whatever happened where Carroll/Sturridge/Dempsey was concerned should have been avoided. I wonder how much influence or not he could have had over Dirk and tried to keep him for one more season, and he chose to spend what he did on Borini. Those alone wouldn't make or break the squad. Dalglish's recruits have certainly helped shape it and had an adverse affect on how it can be re-shaped. I think it was wrong of Rodgers to mention that. It can be taken as getting his excuses in first. I doubt he's the first manager to get knocked back by owners.
I'd imagine Taggart's had it to deal with, but he's never less than full of praise for them so that the club pulls in one direction and remains unified. Sometimes a manager has to shoulder blame that isn't his for the good of club. It's the way the game's played at the top level.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 12:21:38 AM
Didi has it right.  Easy group, and Rodgers is making a pig's ar.se of it.

We should be home and hosed by now.  Instead, it's going down to the wire.  The only saving grace is that we are not in the Champions League.  Our lad's limited managerial abilities would get shown up big time on that stage.

but hey, it's hodgson's fault, it;s dalglish's fault, it's comolini;s fault, it's the lack of resources, it's the owner's fault (they have apologised to Rodgers, you know), it's rafa's fault, it's carroll's fault, it's the lack of experience and time, etc, etc.

brendan will always blame somebody/something else.

Finally, something that isn't Suarez's fault.  :D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 12:25:23 AM
I doubt he's the first manager to get knocked back by owners.
I'd imagine Taggart's had it to deal with, but he's never less than full of praise for them so that the club pulls in one direction and remains unified. Sometimes a manager has to shoulder blame that isn't his for the good of club. It's the way the game's played at the top level.

exactly.

and even in terms of how someone comes across, it is good to show some humility.

blaming others the whole time, eventually becomes transparent.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on November 23, 2012, 12:30:28 AM
Didi has it right.  Easy group, and Rodgers is making a pig's ar.se of it.

We should be home and hosed by now.  Instead, it's going down to the wire.  The only saving grace is that we are not in the Champions League.  Our lad's limited managerial abilities would get shown up big time on that stage.

but hey, it's hodgson's fault, it;s dalglish's fault, it's comolini;s fault, it's the lack of resources, it's the owner's fault (they have apologised to Rodgers, you know), it's rafa's fault, it's carroll's fault, it's the lack of experience and time, etc, etc.

brendan will always blame somebody/something else.


Didn't see the game but pretty much predicted how the shenanigans
would unfold.

What I really don't understand is why after Cole's goal he put Sterling on.

At 1-1 I questioned whether it would be Sterling or Enrique, but was mindful of
the boy Sterling's inexperience doing defensive work the way Kuyt could. Enrique
at least offered a bit of both.

But the real zinger is at 2-1 up we bring on Sterling?? Unless I'm mistaken we
had Henderson playing right back and Downing at left back (you couldn't
make that up  :o ) We bring on Sterling?? The logic escapes me!

Stepping back from it for a minute...We had a central midfielder at right back,
a winger at left back and have to maintain a lead at home for 20 minutes that will
see us through to the last 16 and we bring on a 17 year old winger???????

Hmmm....
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 12:41:21 AM
But the real zinger is at 2-1 up we bring on Sterling?? Unless I'm mistaken we
had Henderson playing right back and Downing at left back (you couldn't
make that up  :o ) We bring on Sterling?? The logic escapes me!

Stepping back from it for a minute...We had a central midfielder at right back,
a winger at left back and have to maintain a lead at home for 20 minutes that will
see us through to the last 16 and we bring on a 17 year old winger? ??? ???

his lack of managerial experience becomes very apparent at moments like that.

to my eyes, it looks like he wants to let Sterling run at a tired opposition, for the closing twenty minutes.

but you have to be pragmatic at times, and do the sensible thing.

as you say, a Kuyt would have closed down, harried, stopped the opposition higher up the pitch, etc.........but he brings on Sterling.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 12:41:42 AM
That substitution baffled me. Henderson was forced as Wisdom went off injured (I think, at least the commentary team implied it). Enrique was the obvious one to close the game down, keep possession. This is where you need the experienced heads - Gerrard, Carragher, Skrtel, Sahin (Bundesliga champion with Dortmund), even Downing must have the knowledge.

Rodgers is going to have to learn the same lessons that Taggart admits himself he had to learn in the CL.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 12:48:28 AM
Rodgers is going to have to learn the same lessons that Taggart admits himself he had to learn in the CL.

he's like a 17 year old apprentice on work experience.

goodness knows why he is getting his work experience in our dugout.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on November 23, 2012, 01:58:30 AM
he's like a 17 year old apprentice on work experience.

goodness knows why he is getting his work experience in our dugout.
Finished the game with 2 defenders on the pitch, one of them nearly 35 yrs old?

Then there's surprise that the Young Boys (credit to them) who are fighting to
remain in the tournament snatch a late goal?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 02:03:38 AM
Finished the game with 2 defenders on the pitch, one of them nearly 35 yrs old?

if you were beamed down from Mars, you would have the impression that Liverpool were chasing the game, desperately seeking a goal.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 09:08:00 AM
We simply don't have the squad to properly deal with both competitions. The league has to be priority, but European football is needed for adding to both the players' and manager's depth of experience and is needed by the club to keep it's profile as high as possible for sponsorship purposes and to try and attract the best players in the circumstances.

The fact that he keeps having to use the big guns shows the paucity of the squad. The owners have to step up to the plate (they'll recognise that phrase being into baseball) in this and the Summer window and back 'their man'. They wasted a season appointing a manager they ideally didn't want and allowing him to spend as much as they did. They owe this manager, the fans and the club two big windows and a proper CEO.

Brilliantly put, Tes. Agree with every word. Especially that par about owing the manager and the fans.

In reply to Ed I just want to say that it was always gonna be like this given the failure in the transfer window and the thin squad it left us to work with. I think he's trying to do the only thing he can here - giving priority to the league while trying to protect senior players by playing weaker sides in the EL. Also, there is a world of difference between playing 90 minutes or 30 or even 60. It's a bit like running. Most of us can run 20 km, even 30 with a little bit of training. A full marathon tho is a totally different thing and it is those last 10-12 km that makes all the difference. In hindsight one could always contemplate doing it the opposite way, i.e., start with a stronger side and go for the jugular and then take the senior players off before the hour mark.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 09:12:23 AM
That substitution baffled me. Henderson was forced as Wisdom went off injured (I think, at least the commentary team implied it). Enrique was the obvious one to close the game down, keep possession. This is where you need the experienced heads - Gerrard, Carragher, Skrtel, Sahin (Bundesliga champion with Dortmund), even Downing must have the knowledge.

Rodgers is going to have to learn the same lessons that Taggart admits himself he had to learn in the CL.

I was surprised too. Wonder whether his idea was to utilize Sterling's speed as the game was bound to swing in their favor chasing an equaliser. He'll learn from it, no doubt. Also, it's still in our hands to qualify tho you'd be forgiven for thinking we just crashed out. Again, it wasn't the rather naive defending in the dying minutes that cost us the game, but rather our wastefulness infront of goal in the first half. Henderson really should've scored twice and Cole deffo should've had one in the first. And it's not like it takes a Rushie or RVN to exectute those chances.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 10:13:34 AM
In reply to Ed I just want to say that it was always gonna be like this given the failure in the transfer window and the thin squad it left us to work with.


Martin, I don't think it's about one window. Granted, we may have had twice as many strikers as we do now, but 2 is hardly a suitable number either. Dalglish's additions sucked so much money out of the club both in transfer fees and wages but hardly bought in players of use. 3 have left in various ways, and the other three have been tried in different positions, sometimes out of need, that much is true, but they've hardly got in the team in the positions they were bought in.



In hindsight one could always contemplate doing it the opposite way, i.e., start with a stronger side and go for the jugular and then take the senior players off before the hour mark.

But we conceded in the last two minutes with senior players on. Junior players are probably more likely to allow for a fightback from the opposition, than senior ones. At least you'd hope senior players had the understanding of how to close down the game in the last 5 minutes. The goal came from a central position. Goalscorer, two touches, before playing it into the striker, who in is own time returned it to the goalscorer, who took one more touch before shooting. All of this portion of played went totally unchallenged, no closing down, no attempt to make things difficult. Yet who was playing centrally? Carragher, Skrtel, Gerrard, Sahin. All senior players. The last five minutes should have seen Gerrard and Sahin shielding the defence, keeping it simple.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 10:31:28 AM
All of this portion of played went totally unchallenged, no closing down, no attempt to make things difficult. Yet who was playing centrally? Carragher, Skrtel, Gerrard, Sahin. All senior players. The last five minutes should have seen Gerrard and Sahin shielding the defence, keeping it simple.
with their combined experience, we can rely on Stevie and Sir Brendan to keep it simple, and see out time.

like I mean, this is Football Strategy 101 class, right.    They must do these same types of basic things (see out time, keep possession)  in the Championship, right.


Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 10:56:12 AM

Martin, I don't think it's about one window. Granted, we may have had twice as many strikers as we do now, but 2 is hardly a suitable number either. Dalglish's additions sucked so much money out of the club both in transfer fees and wages but hardly bought in players of use. 3 have left in various ways, and the other three have been tried in different positions, sometimes out of need, that much is true, but they've hardly got in the team in the positions they were bought in.

Maybe I was sloppy or it could be the Swenglish. Either way, I agree with every word you say. I just tried to make a here-and-now comment based on the fact it's a bit holding the lines until any reinforcments arrive, rather than thinking one window will sort every problem we may face. Our strongest starting XI is pretty weak altho talented. To make 7 changes to it will have consequences albeit the changes was necessary.


But we conceded in the last two minutes with senior players on. Junior players are probably more likely to allow for a fightback from the opposition, than senior ones. At least you'd hope senior players had the understanding of how to close down the game in the last 5 minutes. The goal came from a central position. Goalscorer, two touches, before playing it into the striker, who in is own time returned it to the goalscorer, who took one more touch before shooting. All of this portion of played went totally unchallenged, no closing down, no attempt to make things difficult. Yet who was playing centrally? Carragher, Skrtel, Gerrard, Sahin. All senior players. The last five minutes should have seen Gerrard and Sahin shielding the defence, keeping it simple.

All I am saying is that for all the quality Young Boys may have they seem to first and foremost be a team driven by inspiration. Thus, a 3-0 lead at half time would most likely have seen them roll over. Now, with Gerrard and Suarez on the pitch from the start I think we could've killed the game off in the first half. As it turned out we played them off the park the last half hour of the first half creating more open chances than we ever did this season, yet we left them within touching distance. They knew at half time they had a good chance of stealing a point if they could stay clinical on the few chances they got, which they did. And I maintain those weren't average YB goals.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 11:01:24 AM
And I maintain those weren't average YB goals.

did they kill a goat beforehand; was beelzebub summoned and darkness descend upon a cold November Anfield night.

sounds kinda eery.   We are not living in normal times.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 11:03:45 AM
with their combined experience, we can rely on Stevie and Sir Brendan to keep it simple, and see out time.

like I mean, this is Football Strategy 101 class, right.    They must do these same types of basic things (see out time, keep possession)  in the Championship, right.




It is pretty basic stuff I'd have said. I don't know about Sahin's depth of experience in that sort of situation, but as a Bundesliga League winner, with CL experience, then you would have thought he'd know the score.
Gerrard, Carra, Skrtel, Rodgers - collectively, no excuse. I don't place blame on any one individual but collectively the blame is there. Gerrard is in the position on the pitch, both as captain and literally in the centre of the team, where he should be sorting things, likewise Carra and Skrtel with defence.

Dude, I hate having to aportion blame, but it's so damned frustrating when we as amateurs, with no status whatsoever in the game, know to do it. A win was crucial, it sees us through and saves senior players from playing and travelling on 6th December and the younger players would have had a whole match to themselves to gain more experience.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 11:08:45 AM
Maybe I was sloppy or it could be the Swenglish. Either way, I agree with every word you say. I just tried to make a here-and-now comment based on the fact it's a bit holding the lines until any reinforcments arrive, rather than thinking one window will sort every problem we may face. Our strongest starting XI is pretty weak altho talented. To make 7 changes to it will have consequences albeit the changes was necessary.


All I am saying is that for all the quality Young Boys may have they seem to first and foremost be a team driven by inspiration. Thus, a 3-0 lead at half time would most likely have seen them roll over. Now, with Gerrard and Suarez on the pitch from the start I think we could've killed the game off in the first half. As it turned out we played them off the park the last half hour of the first half creating more open chances than we ever did this season, yet we left them within touching distance. They knew at half time they had a good chance of stealing a point if they could stay clinical on the few chances they got, which they did. And I maintain those weren't average YB goals.

Martin, agree with your first paragraph.

If you get a chance to view it, watch the second goal again. The amount of time and space given to the players involved was criminal, and with 2 minutes to go. The shot itself was excellant, but with no pressure at all during the build up to it, we brought that on ourselves. We weren't undone by an unstoppable wonder goal. 
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 11:55:13 AM
Martin, agree with your first paragraph.

If you get a chance to view it, watch the second goal again. The amount of time and space given to the players involved was criminal, and with 2 minutes to go. The shot itself was excellant, but with no pressure at all during the build up to it, we brought that on ourselves. We weren't undone by an unstoppable wonder goal.

I agree Tes + Reina wasn't helped by that slight touch on Skrtel either (it prolly made the difference tho the shot was extremly well hit). It was sloppy or naive or both defending. What's hard to take tho is that it was a very tired defensive midfielder, not a striker or attacking midfielder, who hit the shot of his career. 29 out of 30 would end up on the 2nd tier at the Anfield Road end - this was the 30th unfortunately.

Dude, watch their first again. You could say Henderson didn't get close enough but you gorra appreciate the first touch, the balance and the athleticism and sheer power. A world-class goal indeed in my book. Also, Farnerud's cross was of highest quality.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 12:01:40 PM
It is pretty basic stuff I'd have said. I don't know about Sahin's depth of experience in that sort of situation, but as a Bundesliga League winner, with CL experience, then you would have thought he'd know the score.
Gerrard, Carra, Skrtel, Rodgers - collectively, no excuse. I don't place blame on any one individual but collectively the blame is there. Gerrard is in the position on the pitch, both as captain and literally in the centre of the team, where he should be sorting things, likewise Carra and Skrtel with defence.

Yes collectively the blame is t here. Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling Sahin often finds himself "inbetween"  ending up chasing the ball from behind the ball-holder? I really think he is struggling to find his position on the pitch thereby spending long periods where he doesn't contribute to the flow of the game.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 12:29:13 PM
Dude, I hate having to aportion blame, but it's so damned frustrating when we as amateurs, with no status whatsoever in the game, know to do it. A win was crucial, it sees us through and saves senior players from playing and travelling on 6th December

I find our setup amateurish, Tes.......both on and off the pitch.

if we fail to get out of this group, it will be shambolic. 

pure amateurism on display, on the pitch and in the dugout.

Gerrard has never been known for his brain processing power, or tactical discipline.  And Rodgers is not exactly blessed with tactical acumen either.

regarding this group, we are watching a train-wreck.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 12:58:21 PM
I find our setup amateurish, Tes.......both on and off the pitch.

if we fail to get out of this group, it will be shambolic. 

pure amateurism on display, on the pitch and in the dugout.

Gerrard has never been known for his brain processing power, or tactical discipline.  And Rodgers is not exactly blessed with tactical acumen either.

regarding this group, we are watching a train-wreck.

1) This is arguably the toughest group in the whole competition so the fact we have to play through the entire groupstage says more about your unrealistic expectations than anything else. It's hardly the end of the world we need to play that game.

2) I can post that youtube-movie again to remind you of your hero's tactical acumen. I don't know how many points we dropped during Rafa's years because he simply refused to admit he got it wrong. Brendan on the other hand, seem a much more mature and honest man. He changed things to get us a draw at Goodison, he changed the formation to earn us a draw at the Bridge. That's two games where the run of play gave a very unlikely chance to get anything out of those games but we did thanks to Brendan's tactical acumen. To that list you could add the first-half changes he made against Wigan.

I don't mean to be rude but you really seem sloppy to me Dude. It's easy to throw around those punchliners ("our set up is amateurish", "Rodgers isn't exactly blessed with tactical acumen" etc. etc. etc. etc.). They just don't hold for scrutiny nor does your credibility.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 03:18:50 PM
1) This is arguably the toughest group in the whole competition so the fact we have to play through the entire groupstage says more about your unrealistic expectations than anything else. It's hardly the end of the world we need to play that game.

2) I can post that youtube-movie again to remind you of your hero's tactical acumen. I don't know how many points we dropped during Rafa's years because he simply refused to admit he got it wrong. Brendan on the other hand, seem a much more mature and honest man. He changed things to get us a draw at Goodison, he changed the formation to earn us a draw at the Bridge. That's two games where the run of play gave a very unlikely chance to get anything out of those games but we did thanks to Brendan's tactical acumen. To that list you could add the first-half changes he made against Wigan.

I don't mean to be rude but you really seem sloppy to me Dude. It's easy to throw around those punchliners ("our set up is amateurish", "Rodgers isn't exactly blessed with tactical acumen" etc. etc. etc. etc.). They just don't hold for scrutiny nor does your credibility.

on the contrary Martin, my credibility has never been better.  I called it like it was in the close season, and (sadly) my predictions have been correct.

Barticus, Ed, Tes and others called it correctly too.

the one with zero credibility in this forum, is you.     You got exactly what you wanted, this summer, and the club has subsequently got off to it's worst start in it's 120 year history.  And we are making basic mistakes, that you'd be embarrassed to see in a Sunday league pub team.

Picture the scene, you;re leading in the match, going through, and you bring on a young attacker, and weaken your defence.  To a person who had arrived at Anfield very late, he'd be thinking Liverpool badly needed a goal and were having to chase the game.

Bizarre tactics, from a very inexperienced manager.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 05:23:14 PM
on the contrary Martin, my credibility has never been better.  I called it like it was in the close season, and (sadly) my predictions have been correct.

You called what? And how is it correct? That "worst start in the history of this club" is about the opening 4-5 games, it's match day 12 now for your info. Time to move on mate. Let me ask you this. What if we go on a16 game unbeaten streak? Will you then say you called it correctly? You're judgement is clouded by the bitterness over Rafa. It's actually sad to have to witness it.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 23, 2012, 05:42:03 PM
You called what? And how is it correct? That "worst start in the history of this club" is about the opening 4-5 games, it's match day 12 now for your info. Time to move on mate. Let me ask you this. What if we go on a16 game unbeaten streak? Will you then say you called it correctly? You're judgement is clouded by the bitterness over Rafa. It's actually sad to have to witness it.

Martin I don't know why you bother responding to him. He's clearly a Bell End and has his own agenda.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on November 23, 2012, 07:13:22 PM
So having an alternate view to the masses who just accept and blindly carry on off the cliff is 'being a bell end' then? I have no doubt the majority would have still been happy with kenny or even maybe Roy...
Anyone in history who has surrounded themselves with yes men head for a fall...the real leaders listen to all points of view..
all of us on this forum have different points of view...thats what a forum is supposed to be... others it would be 'yes brendan, no brendan, 3 bags full brendan'...aka DULL...

Dude, tes, ed, gurdeep et al have all enough experience to make comment...we sure as hell have more experience than the owners of the club...
and so when we see the wrong players leave the club for peanuts,
lack of respect in competitions that cause problems later in qualifying...
bizarre substitutions...
etc..etc..
then what the feck is the problem with that?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 23, 2012, 07:22:43 PM
Having a different view is fine.

However not once has he give Brendan a chance ever since he got the job. Now that to me is called someone having an agenda and me calling that person a Bell End.

Sorry but that is how I feel.

Supporters are supposed to support the players and and support the manager. Certainly when he gets the job at least. So for me any LFC supporter not even willing to give Brendan a chance really isn't a LFC supporter and doesn't understand the values of the club.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 07:32:24 PM
Martin I don't know why you bother responding to him. He's clearly a Bell End and has his own agenda.

Good point mate.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 07:57:40 PM
Yes collectively the blame is t here. Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling Sahin often finds himself "inbetween"  ending up chasing the ball from behind the ball-holder? I really think he is struggling to find his position on the pitch thereby spending long periods where he doesn't contribute to the flow of the game.

Agreed. Sahin sometimes plays deeper than I would expect of him. Granted he has no pace, so he's not going to burst through with the ball ala Gerrard, but as he showed against Norwich, if the chance arises he can get himself in the box on the end of things.
To a certain degree he reminds me of how Lucas played for Gremio. Sitting more advanced in midfield, keeping the ball going left and right, playing the little pass into the area diagonally or slipping in  the striker or advanced midfielder running beyond, and getting beyond and into the box on the end of things himself when the play allowed.

Both Allen and Sahin have suffered to a degree from the lack of Lucas. Neither are direct replacements as they either lack strength, pace or ability to read and intercept or nick the ball like Lucas does. It's also curtailed the effect they could have on the play further forward.

Shelvey played the faux no9 position well last night. Dropping deep and finding a runner breaking beyond him or getting in the box on the end of things also.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 08:07:45 PM
Having a different view is fine.

However not once has he give Brendan a chance ever since he got the job. Now that to me is called someone having an agenda and me calling that person a Bell End.

Sorry but that is how I feel.

Supporters are supposed to support the players and and support the manager. Certainly when he gets the job at least. So for me any LFC supporter not even willing to give Brendan a chance really isn't a LFC supporter and doesn't understand the values of the club.

edward, your ceasefire (and that of your mate, martin) suddenly ended today.  You went back to what you do, namely fire personal abuse.

Tes, gurdeep, barticus, juan, ed, etc all made this place what it is. 

we had a really good little forum going here, til you pair started posting.  This was not the type of forum where one went to worship, or bow the cap to the club hierarchy (unlike other major forums).  No, this forum was a special place where intelligent debate was promoted and enjoyed.  And we would back up our arguments with experience, and/or data.  There was humour too, amongst the insight.

I am no Brian Clough.  But I played to a relatively high level, and managed to a high level (locally) too.  My striking partner, had a trial for Liverpool in 1980.  I most likely would have had a trial for the club too, but for a bad car accident (my head injuries resulted in 5 years of occasional seizures, concentration problems, focussing problems, lazy eye, etc).

but I played and managed to a decent level in local football.  Our team dominated local football for more than a decade.  We were the Liverpool of our part of the country.   That was my team (my best friend helped me manage it....we both played in it).  I rebuilt the team about 4 times during our era of dominance. 

so though I am no Brian Clough or Bob Paisley, i do bring a little bit of knowledge and experience to the table.

I am not saying this all to blow my own trumpet.  I am saying it in order for you to stop with the personal abuse.  If you don;t show others some respect, they are not gonna show you any, and you are going to have a very unfulfilling time online.

The fact that the pair of you have no friends in here, ought to tell you something.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 08:46:56 PM
edward, your ceasefire (and that of your mate, martin) suddenly ended today.  You went back to what you do, namely fire personal abuse.

That's where I stopped reading. Fed up with you always being the innocent victim already. It makes me think of an infamous ManU chant to be honest.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 08:51:12 PM
That's where I stopped reading. Fed up with you always being the innocent victim already. It makes me think of an infamous ManU chant to be honest.

sub-title:   Martin is irritated when people confront him (and his mate) when they fire personal abuse.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 08:59:47 PM
Martin, Dude has a point. He voices his opinion, as valuable as your's, mine or Edward's, whether we agree or not.
Edward then has to start with the personal abuse, which you endorse. There was no need for either.

I may not agree with Dude's views in their totally on Rafa, or your's / Edward's on Rodgers. Some parts of each I see where you're all coming from, other parts I agree with up to point, other parts mirror my own.

By all means respond, but respond with reasons why you don't agree. No-one's actually right or wrong, everything said on here are merely views and opinions.

It's the lashing out with personal abuse at posters that is wrong. Adults argue a point, defend a stance. Children and the mentally limited respond with names and abuse.

There's no need for it and both you and Edward are far more intelligent than that, and it demeans what you both have to offer, which when it's not taken from the gutter, makes an interesting read and adds a different view of things into the melting pot.

Juan, I think has been put off by it all and as a long standing poster on here, it's a damned loss.

Sometimes it's like being amonst Primary School kids again. 
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 09:01:03 PM
sub-title:   Martin is irritated when people confront him (and his mate) when they fire personal abuse.

Maybe, but not in this case. Where did I abuse anybody?????

Edward says it hurts his feelings and frustrate him when you haven't said one positive thing about the manager since his arrival. You constantly harp on about that fornicating 120-years crap of your despite we're unbeaten in the last 8 in the league. Can't you see that people get annoyed at your constant negativity? Especially when your answer lies in the past. You're probably a bitter RAWK'er that come on here to let off some steam. How mature.  ::)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 09:05:56 PM
Martin, Dude has a point. He voices his opinion, as valuable as your's, mine or Edward's, whether we agree or not.
Edward then has to start with the personal abuse, which you endorse. There was no need for either.

I may not agree with Dude's views in their totally on Rafa, or your's / Edward's on Rodgers. Some parts of each I see where you're all coming from, other parts I agree with up to point, other parts mirror my own.

By all means respond, but respond with reasons why you don't agree. No-one's actually right or wrong, everything said on here are merely views and opinions.

It's the lashing out with personal abuse at posters that is wrong. Adults argue a point, defend a stance. Children and the mentally limited respond with names and abuse.

There's no need for it and both you and Edward are far more intelligent than that, and it demeans what you both have to offer, which when it's not taken from the gutter, makes an interesting read and adds a different view of things into the melting pot.

Juan, I think has been put off by it all and as a long standing poster on here, it's a damned loss.

Sometimes it's like being amonst Primary School kids again.

I har what you say and agree on the abuse part of it. I just find it insulting to have to listen to that smearing of the manager and the only reason for it is that the Dude's seen the light. If he could argue his point with valid and relevant arguments I wouldn't have a problem at all with it, quite the opposite. But his constant "the manager isn't blessed with tactical acumen", "we're so amateurish it's embarrassing" etc when we're 5th in the league over the last 8 games. Can't you see it gets to a point where one think: He's so one-sided he must have an agenda. ???? Just asking.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 09:07:17 PM
And before anyone thinks I'm sticking up for anyone or taking sides, then don't bother.

You'd be right to think I'm taking a side, but that's the side of this forum, and the side of the right of anyone posting on it to neither receive personal abuse or have to read it directed at ANY member of the forum.

If you really have to respond in the negative, take it to PM, there is a facility. But you know what? What's better still, just ignore it, or respond with a factual response showing the errors in the post that has you so enflamed.

This getting on lark really is easy. And put the good of the forum above your own personal desire at having a dig. Try it, it opens up a whole new vista.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 09:16:59 PM
And before anyone thinks I'm sticking up for anyone or taking sides, then don't bother.

You'd be right to think I'm taking a side, but that's the side of this forum, and the side of the right of anyone posting on it to neither receive personal abuse or have to read it directed at ANY member of the forum.

If you really have to respond in the negative, take it to PM, there is a facility. But you know what? What's better still, just ignore it, or respond with a factual response showing the errors in the post that has you so enflamed.

This getting on lark really is easy. And put the good of the forum above your own personal desire at having a dig. Try it, it opens up a whole new vista.

I'll stick to the ignore strategy.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 09:18:51 PM
I har what you say and agree on the abuse part of it. I just find it insulting to have to listen to that smearing of the manager and the only reason for it is that the Dude's seen the light. If he could argue his point with valid and relevant arguments I wouldn't have a problem at all with it, quite the opposite. But his constant "the manager isn't blessed with tactical acumen", "we're so amateurish it's embarrassing" etc when we're 5th in the league over the last 8 games. Can't you see it gets to a point where one think: He's so one-sided he must have an agenda. ???? Just asking.

I see what you're saying and I also see Edward doing a similar thing but in a personal way, and you have backed him up.
I understand you and Edward feel frustrated with some of the things Dude says, but Dude has that same sense of frustration with what he sees happening at and to the club. The difference is Dude doesn't take it down to a personal level with posters on here.

We're all damned emotional where this club is involved. It's what makes you a fan of a club and of football - there has to be some explanation for the emotional torture we seem unable to drag ourselves away from.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 09:23:39 PM
I'll stick to the ignore strategy.

It's easy. We're never all going to see things the same way, but however any of us see things we do have one thing in common and that's our love of the club and football in general. I have no doubts about that with any of us on here, no matter how infrequently I agree with them, or whether they ever share my view or not.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 09:38:29 PM
The difference is Dude doesn't take it down to a personal level with posters on here.

That's where we do not agree and the fact you see it that way makes me wonder why you have to ride out to his defence when he's just as bad as the rest of us. As I said. I'll press the ignore-button from now on.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 23, 2012, 09:41:22 PM
Look I am stating a fact that how can you call yourself a Liverpool supporter if you don't back and support a manager that has understood or is willing to take the time to understand the club's ethos, as integrated himself within the culture of the club and has a strategy which can reap us rewards well into the future.

So I am calling Dude and out on this and make no apology to him whatsoever. It's disgusting the way he makes snides comments towards Rodgers.

Dude you can spout your crap but I want to know why you don't give Rodgers a chance.

Has Rodgers made mistakes? Yes of course he has. But I am willing to bet he will learn from them, because so far in his career he has shown and aptitude to quickly learn and has accumulated a lot of tactical acumen and has a clear and precise strategy he wants to implement on to the squad. This won't take weeks nor months. But years.

So I await with baited response your reasoning why you aren't giving him a chance.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 09:53:53 PM
Look I am stating a fact that how can you call yourself a Liverpool supporter if you don't back and support a manager that has understood or is willing to take the time to understand the club's ethos, as integrated himself within the culture of the club and has a strategy which can reap us rewards well into the future.

So I am calling Dude and out on this and make no apology to him whatsoever. It's disgusting the way he makes snides comments towards Rodgers.

Dude you can spout your crap but I want to know why you don't give Rodgers a chance.

Has Rodgers made mistakes? Yes of course he has. But I am willing to bet he will learn from them, because so far in his career he has shown and aptitude to quickly learn and has accumulated a lot of tactical acumen and has a clear and precise strategy he wants to implement on to the squad. This won't take weeks nor months. But years.

So I await with baited response your reasoning why you aren't giving him a chance.

As you told me, don't bother. He's not interested to explain to us his contempt and rescentment towards the Liverpool manager. I do, however, wonder if he would survive if we finished above his hero and his bunch of mercenaries.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 09:55:12 PM
That's where we do not agree and the fact you see it that way makes me wonder why you have to ride out to his defence when he's just as bad as the rest of us.

From post #188

And before anyone thinks I'm sticking up for anyone or taking sides, then don't bother.

You'd be right to think I'm taking a side, but that's the side of this forum, and the side of the right of anyone posting on it to neither receive personal abuse or have to read it directed at ANY member of the forum.


Martin, please read that. And why did I write it, do you think? And did what I wrote come true? Exactly. That's why I felt I had to write it in the first place. See what I'm saying?

I've been posting on this forum far too long to see it go down the shitter or turn into TLW.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 09:56:03 PM
From post #188

And before anyone thinks I'm sticking up for anyone or taking sides, then don't bother.

You'd be right to think I'm taking a side, but that's the side of this forum, and the side of the right of anyone posting on it to neither receive personal abuse or have to read it directed at ANY member of the forum.


Martin, please read that. And why did I write it, do you think? And did what I wrote come true? Exactly. That's why I felt I had to write it in the first place. See what I'm saying?

I've been posting on this forum far too long to see it go down the shitter or turn into TLW.

NOW do you see where I'm coming from?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 10:00:50 PM
Look I am stating a fact that how can you call yourself a Liverpool supporter if you don't back and support a manager that has understood or is willing to take the time to understand the club's ethos, as integrated himself within the culture of the club and has a strategy which can reap us rewards well into the future.

So I am calling Dude and out on this and make no apology to him whatsoever. It's disgusting the way he makes snides comments towards Rodgers.

Dude you can spout your crap but I want to know why you don't give Rodgers a chance.

Has Rodgers made mistakes? Yes of course he has. But I am willing to bet he will learn from them, because so far in his career he has shown and aptitude to quickly learn and has accumulated a lot of tactical acumen and has a clear and precise strategy he wants to implement on to the squad. This won't take weeks nor months. But years.

So I await with baited response your reasoning why you aren't giving him a chance.

Edward, thanks for keeping it civil. I see what you're saying, but I've known Dude long enough to know where he's coming from too. If we all just remember we're actually all on the same side, and we keep personal abuse of anybody out of it, this could be a great discussion. An all nighter round a glass filled table.

I take my leave.  ;D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on November 23, 2012, 10:02:00 PM
Juan, I think has been put off by it all and as a long standing poster on here, it's a damned loss.
Agree Juan is a big loss!

Tbh, I have no problem with 224 & Marx. Sometimes I think 224
goes a bit OTT with his predictions.

As I've said before, we're blooding a new manager of LFC. The
fanbase has every right to have high standards and it's up to the
gaffer to meet and exceed expectations.

Where's the fire in the gaffer, I mean that sop after last night's game about
still being in control of our destiny in the EL felt distinctly underwhelming (given our
current league position and exit from the CC). I mean are we supposed to be
grateful? he also appears to have successfully cultivated a culture of desperation
at the club.

As Dude noted the owners are apparently apologising to the manager, last week
the manager was apologising to the fans. Weak!

This strategy of overplaying Stevie, Luis and Raheem suggests desperation and
will cause problems further down the line. Can he not work with and improve the
other players in the squad? In particular I wince at the overuse of Luis and Raheem.

The indecision (worst characteristic in a manager) over the Europa league is worrying
and that same limping from one must-win game to another as early as October has echoes
of Hodgson.

The inability to set the team up for 90 minutes and resorting to subs as early as 30 minutes
(hailed by some as tactical genius) doesn't inspire confidence when it becomes a weekly ritual.

The relatively minor influence his signings have had as compared to many other teams in the division.

Anyway maybe we'll win the next two away games in the premiership and begin to cement a
position in the top half of the table, progress into the last 32 of the Europa league etc.. We'll
wait and see as we've been doing all along this season (nobody to my knowledge has called
for his head and I'm quite patient in that regard preferring to see how a manager operates in
adversity before jumping the gun)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on November 23, 2012, 10:03:55 PM
NOW do you see where I'm coming from?

I hear what you say and all that is OK with me. It's just when you say he doesn't take it to a personal level that I beg to differ. I guess it depends on where you draw the line regarding what constitutes as abuse. This is a kindergarden really compared to how it used to be on the offal in the early days.

A beer or 7 around a table sounds the most compelling thingy said thus far in this thread.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 10:12:00 PM
Look I am stating a fact that how can you call yourself a Liverpool supporter if you don't back and support a manager that has understood or is willing to take the time to understand the club's ethos, as integrated himself within the culture of the club and has a strategy which can reap us rewards well into the future.

So I am calling Dude and out on this and make no apology to him whatsoever. It's disgusting the way he makes snides comments towards Rodgers.

Dude you can spout your crap but I want to know why you don't give Rodgers a chance.

Has Rodgers made mistakes? Yes of course he has. But I am willing to bet he will learn from them, because so far in his career he has shown and aptitude to quickly learn and has accumulated a lot of tactical acumen and has a clear and precise strategy he wants to implement on to the squad. This won't take weeks nor months. But years.

So I await with baited response your reasoning why you aren't giving him a chance.

I suspect Ed is waiting with baited breath for your response, when he called you out (several days ago) on your hypocrisy re your vastly changed views on Henderson.  You;re signing his praises during his first few months at the club, now you cast doubt on him and castigate him.  Well which is it - is Henderson not the midfield maestro that you claimed he was, what changed?  Ah yes, your initial view of the lad was wrong.  And now you slag him instead.

you berate and slag other supporters for having views, and yet you do not see your own hypocrisy.

such utter hypocrisy.  But Ed called you on it.  And you ignored his posts. 

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 10:27:37 PM
Look I am stating a fact that how can you call yourself a Liverpool supporter if you don't back and support a manager that has understood or is willing to take the time to understand the club's ethos, as integrated himself within the culture of the club and has a strategy which can reap us rewards well into the future.

let's look at your definition of being a supporter, and then hoist you on your own petard.

why do you slag players eg Henderson?  You call yourself a supporter, right?  And you slagging Gerrard the other night again.....and you call yourself a supporter?

You see, I can easily play the game you play, and make you look a total fool....a total hypocrite. 

You suggest that the club should be grateful that Rodgers is "willing to take the time to understand the club's ethos"...............haven't you got the cart before the horse.  Liverpool FC is far bigger than Brendan Rodgers.  He should be endlessly grateful that he has been given the chance to manage such a club.

You say that we should be grateful that he has taken on the ethos of the club.  But since when has the club ethos ever been about endlessly blabbering one;s mouth off to the media, and boasting about yourself. 

And you say that Rodgers has a strategy that will be good for us.  And I keep asking you, what this strategy is (beyond endless passing to each other) and have yet to get any detail on what BR is about. 

You're way short on detail, but plenty big on insults.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on November 23, 2012, 10:28:45 PM
I suspect Ed is waiting with baited breath for your response
He generally ignores me!  ;D

But yeah I was making the point that in general he charges in
here with this rose-tinted short term view of matters related to
the club. Every decision made in the here and now is correct.
The blinkers are on and he will not tolerate any counter arguments
(occasionally lashing out at the veterans).

Obviously not everyone shares his certainty of our imminent good
fortunes and beg to differ  :) At which point he then scurries off,
waits for a win and then...He charges in here etc..

Fine as a fan he his entitled to his short term unconditional beliefs.

But for those of us who have waited (how long has it been?) since the last
title? and seen the poor manner in which many, many aspects of the club
have been executed in recent years there's scope for some debate.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 23, 2012, 10:33:28 PM
I suspect Ed is waiting with baited breath for your response, when he called you out (several days ago) on your hypocrisy re your vastly changed views on Henderson.  You;re signing his praises during his first few months at the club, now you cast doubt on him and castigate him.  Well which is it - is Henderson not the midfield maestro that you claimed he was, what changed?  Ah yes, your initial view of the lad was wrong.  And now you slag him instead.

you berate and slag other supporters for having views, and yet you do not see your own hypocrisy.

such utter hypocrisy.  But Ed called you on it.  And you ignored his posts.

No problem with anyone changing their views, it can show flexibility in one's thinking and a ability to take in evidence in front of ones eyes, just as  long as everyone else can hold their own individual view and that is not derided for being different to a view one holds.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 10:37:01 PM
He generally ignores me!  ;D

But yeah I was making the point that in general he charges in
here with this rose-tinted short term view of matters related to
the club. Every decision made in the here and now is correct.
The blinkers are on and he will not tolerate any counter arguments
(occasionally lashing out at the veterans).

Obviously not everyone shares his certainty of our imminent good
fortunes and beg to differ  :) At which point he then scurries off,
waits for a win and then...He charges in here etc..

Fine as a fan he his entitled to his short term unconditional beliefs.

yes, he is predictable.

and when he reads posts, it's through his rose-tinted glasses.

but when he writes his own views, those same glasses are often off.

pure and utter hypocrisy.....sadly he has not caught himself on yet.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 10:39:18 PM
No problem with anyone changing their views, it can show flexibility in one's thinking and a ability to take in evidence in front of ones eyes, just as  long as everyone else can hold their own individual view and that is not derided for being different to a view one holds.

exactly.  Variables change, our thoughts and thinking also adapts and progresses.

very little in life is black or white.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on November 23, 2012, 10:49:18 PM
Martin, Dude has a point. He voices his opinion, as valuable as your's, mine or Edward's, whether we agree or not.
Edward then has to start with the personal abuse, which you endorse. There was no need for either.

I may not agree with Dude's views in their totally on Rafa, or your's / Edward's on Rodgers. Some parts of each I see where you're all coming from, other parts I agree with up to point, other parts mirror my own.

By all means respond, but respond with reasons why you don't agree. No-one's actually right or wrong, everything said on here are merely views and opinions.

It's the lashing out with personal abuse at posters that is wrong. Adults argue a point, defend a stance. Children and the mentally limited respond with names and abuse.

Juan, I think has been put off by it all and as a long standing poster on here, it's a damned loss.

good post.

it's the rainbow of views that makes any forum fascinating (be it sport, music or whatever type of forum).

closed minds and narrow thinking is best left to religious fundamentalists.  Open, broadminded thinking has always been my thing.

and yes, I also wanted to add my weight to the mention of Juan.  Like you have said Tes, and Ed too, I lament the loss of Juan to this forum.  He brought a lot to the place and I miss his input.

Edward and Martin are making a very toxic environment, and there are casualties of such an approach.



Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 24, 2012, 06:33:39 PM
If you read what I said about Henderson is that I am willing to sacrifice him IF IT MEANT  that we can get either a striker and/or a creative wide player. I stated that I see him as Lucas's understudy and that in a perfect world he'd still be a part of the squad.

However seeing as we have to live within our means and not got unlimited money ala city or chelsea and seeing as Henderson is the most expendable out of all out central midfielders and if it meant we could use that money to strengthen in areas where we are weak in then I stand by what I said.

I wasn't being a hypocrite at all.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on November 24, 2012, 06:49:53 PM
Also if I thought I had unconditional beliefs in the team then I wouldn't think that we still have massive problems.

If I had unconditional beliefs I'd believe that we'd make the top 4. I don't. However I do think we can challenge for a top 4 place and see no reason why can't put in a challenge for it. However I am not blinkered in my beliefs that we'll definitely be top 4 and all is rosy.

I too have waited 23 years to see us win the title again. I started supporting this club in 1986 so don't you dare think of me as a johnny come lately fan wanting instant success.

As I said we do have massive problems in our squad.

I actually do think we need a new goalkeeper. Reina has dropped off at least 2 levels from where he used to be.

I think that defensively we need to be more organised as a back 4 and we need to strengthen it.

I don't think Joe Allen is the welsh Xavi. I do think he has been inconsistent the past 2 months, however in his short time here he has shown a lot of quality and his composure under pressure to keep the ball and play the simple pass is a great quality. I also think that we will see the best of Allen when Lucas comes back as then Allen can move 5-7 yards further up the pitch, where he is best at. As at the moment he is playing 5-7 yards deeper covering for Lucas. But he is a player we need to keep for the next decade.

I don't think I need to talk about our creative and striking options. Everyone knows we are weak there.

With Gerrard past his prime and our youth players ever learning by their mistakes and showing inconsistency (like all youth players) then there is going to be disjointing play in our games.

Rodgers is learning as well. He has made mistakes of course and has shown in numerous games he can learn from them by changing our tactics in mid game.

So I am not blind and its not rosy in the garden. We have a lot of work to do and it will take years to formulate a squad and to make that squad play a system Rodgers wants and get results. So long as we are showing progress and can see improvement then I am happy.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 24, 2012, 08:00:08 PM
Also if I thought I had unconditional beliefs in the team then I wouldn't think that we still have massive problems.

If I had unconditional beliefs I'd believe that we'd make the top 4. I don't. However I do think we can challenge for a top 4 place and see no reason why can't put in a challenge for it. However I am not blinkered in my beliefs that we'll definitely be top 4 and all is rosy.

I too have waited 23 years to see us win the title again. I started supporting this club in 1986 so don't you dare think of me as a johnny come lately fan wanting instant success.

As I said we do have massive problems in our squad.

I actually do think we need a new goalkeeper. Reina has dropped off at least 2 levels from where he used to be.

I think that defensively we need to be more organised as a back 4 and we need to strengthen it.

I don't think Joe Allen is the welsh Xavi. I do think he has been inconsistent the past 2 months, however in his short time here he has shown a lot of quality and his composure under pressure to keep the ball and play the simple pass is a great quality. I also think that we will see the best of Allen when Lucas comes back as then Allen can move 5-7 yards further up the pitch, where he is best at. As at the moment he is playing 5-7 yards deeper covering for Lucas. But he is a player we need to keep for the next decade.

I don't think I need to talk about our creative and striking options. Everyone knows we are weak there.

With Gerrard past his prime and our youth players ever learning by their mistakes and showing inconsistency (like all youth players) then there is going to be disjointing play in our games.

Rodgers is learning as well. He has made mistakes of course and has shown in numerous games he can learn from them by changing our tactics in mid game.

So I am not blind and its not rosy in the garden. We have a lot of work to do and it will take years to formulate a squad and to make that squad play a system Rodgers wants and get results. So long as we are showing progress and can see improvement then I am happy.

Nice balanced post Edward. Enjoyed it.

It doesn't hurt us raising concerns and problems we see. We wouldn't if we didn't care. It might seem like the negative outweighs the positive but there has and still a Hell of lot wrong at the club, from the very top down.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on November 24, 2012, 08:08:42 PM
If you read what I said about Henderson is that I am willing to sacrifice him IF IT MEANT  that we can get either a striker and/or a creative wide player. I stated that I see him as Lucas's understudy and that in a perfect world he'd still be a part of the squad.

However seeing as we have to live within our means and not got unlimited money ala city or chelsea and seeing as Henderson is the most expendable out of all out central midfielders and if it meant we could use that money to strengthen in areas where we are weak in then I stand by what I said.

I wasn't being a hypocrite at all.

Surely Spearing before Henderson. We'd need to sell to both to get anywhere near the amount of cash we'd need for the requisite quality. Neither's stock is exactly high at the moment.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on December 05, 2012, 11:49:34 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20619211

I note Rafa's targeting the EL!

Reminded me of that Scott Walker tune
The Old Mans Back Again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DpDxT2q9QE

"The old man's back again
I see he's back again

I see a soldier, He's standing in the rain
For him there's no old man to walk behind

Devoured by his pain
bewildered by the faces who pass him by"


 8)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 05, 2012, 11:55:39 PM
Win 6-1 and still go out. Goes to show that Beni was onto a loser from the off.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 05, 2012, 11:58:54 PM
hope we don't draw Chelsea.


Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on December 06, 2012, 12:00:06 AM
Win 6-1 and still go out. Goes to show that Beni was onto a loser from the off.
Well he does work for the plastic palace people now  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayrS74ktTyE

hope we don't draw Chelsea.
I do it'll be game of the season  ;D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 06, 2012, 12:01:47 AM
hope we don't draw Chelsea.

Snap. The Master vs The Apprentice. I wonder what odds you'd get on Chelsea tonight for the EL? I bet they're already short.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 06, 2012, 12:06:58 AM
I do it'll be game of the season  ;D

Snap. The Master vs The Apprentice. I wonder what odds you'd get on Chelsea tonight for the EL? I bet they're already short.

yes, it could be a hammering, and enough to cost someone their job.

the master v the kid

cassius clay versus freddie flintoff

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 06, 2012, 12:11:28 AM
yes, it could be a hammering, and enough to cost someone their job.

the master v the kid

cassius clay versus freddie flintoff

It would make an interesting yardstick in many ways. We drew with Chelsea earlier in the season, you'd think the new manager would be better than the one he replaced, so an interesting way to measure what additional progress has been made since. By either team.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on December 06, 2012, 12:14:43 AM
yes, it could be a hammering, and enough to cost someone their job.

the master v the kid

cassius clay versus freddie flintoff


It would be an absolute classic!

There's just the small matter of us qualifying to
attend to first.

If ever there was an incentive for BR to win a game
it must surely be tomorrow.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 06, 2012, 12:17:28 AM
It would be an absolute classic!

There's just the small matter of us qualifying to
attend to first.

If ever there was an incentive for BR to win a game
it must surely be tomorrow.

I suspect Rafa would look forward more to the game, than Brendan.


It would make an interesting yardstick in many ways. We drew with Chelsea earlier in the season, you'd think the new manager would be better than the one he replaced, so an interesting way to measure what additional progress has been made since. By either team.

yes, it would be fascinating to watch.

It would also be very difficult to see Rafa sitting in the other dugout. 
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on December 06, 2012, 12:28:56 AM
I wonder what odds you'd get
Were it to happen.

I also wonder what odds you'd have gotten 4 years ago
if someone had peered into the future and suggested the
possibility of it happening:

"In 4 years time you'll be competing in the EL against the Blues managed by Rafa
and you'll be managed by a Championship winning manager"


Anyway would be fun were it to occur.  :)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 06, 2012, 12:40:59 AM
Were it to happen.

I also wonder what odds you'd have gotten 4 years ago
if someone had peered into the future and suggested the
possibility of it happening:

"In 4 years time you'll be competing in the EL against the Blues managed by Rafa
and you'll be managed by a Championship winning manager"


Anyway would be fun were it to occur.  :)

Who's the 'Championship winning manager',  Ed, as Rafa's the only one with the La Liga duo?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on December 06, 2012, 12:48:34 AM
Who's the 'Championship winning manager',  Ed, as Rafa's the only one with the La Liga duo?
didn't BR win the Championship? one sec!

Eh no  :-[ he came up through the play offs (shudders!)

Apologies!

btw credit to Celtic tonight!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 06, 2012, 01:11:50 AM
didn't BR win the Championship? one sec!

Eh no  :-[ he came up through the play offs (shudders!)

Apologies!



Get's confusing seeing as he did win a trophy for that, same as if he'd actually won something.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 06, 2012, 01:53:14 AM
Brendan must have won something.  Let's put our thinking caps on.

A man of his stature, and standing, in the game will have won lots of trophies.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on December 06, 2012, 08:06:16 AM
Brendan must have won something.  Let's put our thinking caps on.

A man of his stature, and standing, in the game will have won lots of trophies.

Surely you haven't forgotten the Tiddlywinks World Amateur Trophy that he won at school?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on December 06, 2012, 11:30:09 AM
Brendan must have won something.  Let's put our thinking caps on.

A man of his stature, and standing, in the game will have won lots of trophies.

Yawn. Change the record,  please.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 06, 2012, 02:29:13 PM
Surely you haven't forgotten the Tiddlywinks World Amateur Trophy that he won at school?

(http://www.britelitewindows.co.uk/assets/img/tiddlywinks.jpg)

how could I have overlooked his Tiddlywinks Trophy. 

I heard that he came in and introduced tiddlywinks to his school, and introduced a whole new way of playing tiddlywinks.  And his school then became a dominant worldbeating mid-table force in the world of tiddlywinks.  His school was like the Brazil of tiddlywinks.

The school was renamed Rodgers Tiddlywinks Academy....or RTA.

But modest as ever, he claimed: "yes, ok, I may have made something wonderful out of nothing here, but as a down to earth kid, that has always kept his feet on the ground, with no airs or graces, and likes to talk of himself in the third person, I will only say that I am fantastic"
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on December 06, 2012, 06:40:34 PM

how could I have overlooked his Tiddlywinks Trophy. 

I heard that he came in and introduced tiddlywinks to his school, and introduced a whole new way of playing tiddlywinks.  And his school then became a dominant worldbeating mid-table force in the world of tiddlywinks.  His school was like the Brazil of tiddlywinks.

The school was renamed Rodgers Tiddlywinks Academy....or RTA.

But modest as ever, he claimed: "yes, ok, I may have made something wonderful out of nothing here, but as a down to earth kid, that has always kept his feet on the ground, with no airs or graces, and likes to talk of himself in the third person, I will only say that I am fantastic"

LMAO...indeed after winning the 'Tiddlywinks World Amateur Trophy' (T.W.A.T) and setting up the RTA, Mr Fantastic will apply the same tactical acumen so we can now go on to win the PL, EL and maybe even the sweet FA...
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on December 06, 2012, 06:46:44 PM
Good strike from Mr Henderson...
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on December 06, 2012, 07:22:27 PM
Looking nervous...
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on December 06, 2012, 07:53:59 PM
Lol...di natale gives barticus a fecking heart attack..
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 06, 2012, 07:57:24 PM
watching live updates on Guardian site..........apparently that was a rather close call, the last kick of the game nearly knocked us out.

barticus appears to agree above  :D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on December 06, 2012, 08:34:21 PM
not sure if any of you have seen this...but....http://www.thefirstrow.eu/
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 06, 2012, 09:26:27 PM
LMAO...indeed after winning the 'Tiddlywinks World Amateur Trophy' (T.W.A.T) and setting up the RTA, Mr Fantastic will apply the same tactical acumen so we can now go on to win the PL, EL and maybe even the sweet FA...

@twit   :D

the Tiddlywinks folks have their own version of Twitter, obviously called twitter.

there is now a plaque on the Rodgers Tiddlywinks Academy, in memory of a never forgotten formal pupil, a lad that started the ball rolling.

He still keeps his feet on the ground, and comes back once each year to sign autographs for students and let them see his new red Ferrari.    Full size images of the great man are available for 3 quid.



Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on December 06, 2012, 10:35:09 PM
Two weeks ago ppl were cursing the inept, inexperienced yet bigmouthed Rodgers for dropping points at home to YB forcing us to play a decisive game away from home. Said and done the worthless Rodgers sees us through despite leaving the bulk of the team at home or on the bench. Not that that would appease his detractors. It really must be hell when there's nothing that can make you happy lest Rafa the failure's being reinstated.

I dont know what pleases me the most - us winning the game and the group or that it represents further evidence your criticism is irrelevant and derives from bitterness over Rafa's sacking.

Me? I'm proud and happy as fukc. But then again I'm first and foremost an LFC-supporter  wishing the club, the manager and the team the best.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on December 06, 2012, 11:15:47 PM
Two weeks ago ppl were cursing the inept, inexperienced yet bigmouthed Rodgers Henderson
Not suggesting you of course...

As we all know on here
you are first and foremost an LFC-supporter wishing the team the best.  :P

I think you'll find some of the criticism of the manager in relation
to how the EL campaign was conducted was justified and but
for a sending off and a couple of inches we could have been out
tonight.

It's great that we're through but lets not overdo it ffs we're LFC
we expect to progress through the group stage of the Europa League.
Even Hodgers achieved this momentous feat!  :o

If anything it's credit to Young Boys and their manager for showing
us how to take a tournament seriously!

not sure if any of you have seen this...but....http://www.thefirstrow.eu/
Cheers Bart!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 06, 2012, 11:56:52 PM
It really must be hell when there's nothing that can make you happy lest Rafa the failure's being reinstated.

I dont know what pleases me the most - us winning the game and the group or that it represents further evidence your criticism is irrelevant and derives from bitterness over Rafa's sacking.


Yawn. Change the record,  please.

 ;)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 07, 2012, 12:20:51 AM
Me? I'm proud and happy as fukc. But then again I'm first and foremost an LFC-supporter  wishing the club, the manager and the team the best.

Does not = turning a blind eye and conveniently ignoring problems or faults as you perceive them Does not = being bitter about Chelsea's manager not being our manager and wishing he still was.

Yet again, thou who knows why, Rafa 'the plastic Blues Manager' Benitez gets pluck from the realms of the irrelevant to be planted firmly into a post on a Liverpool forum.

As is oft quoted elsewhere "Get over it, he's gone." 

I was going to post something along the lines of how much better our manager had dealt with this game in comparison with earlier ones in the competition. How well our manager appeared to have got the message through of playing the clock down and keeping possession. Of how sensible he was to rest Agger and Lucas, but use Suarez as he couldn't play on Sunday. How for once it was a good idea to use Carra's experience to help see this through. How sensible it was to be more cautious and play Enrique at left back meaning we didn't expose ourselves having Drowning there. How it was inspired to use Suso as he combines well with Suarez and could theoretically help us keep possession better, being a more technical player, despite his young age, and how he could help us utilise that possession better going forward in order to increase our chances of getting  at least the one goal we'd required as a minimum.

But as Martyn just had to through in the old Benitez chestnut yet again, then I think I won't bother.

One thing that has been puzzling me since one manager started getting blamed for things being levelled at another manager, is who were we all feeling bitter over when we were doing the same thing during Benitez's reign, ie pointing out perceived problems?

It must be my age that has left my memory shredded, so if anyone can help me with the answer, please, please, do so.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on December 07, 2012, 12:54:44 AM
Yeah, it was wrong of me to feel disappointed after coming on here expecting people to be happy with this massive result and perfomance only to find the same folks talking about tiddly winks and crap.

It was wrong of me to expect people to give cred where it's due instead of spouting belittling and sniping remarks toward the manager of this club. Now you tell me. it's beyond me why anyone would do such a thing. It's hardly about "having an opinion".

Ah well, I'll probably get a better respond talking to the oak tree on the back side of me house.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on December 07, 2012, 01:11:25 AM
Ah well, I'll probably get a better respond talking to the oak tree on the back side of me house.
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4073/4775418973_0c68b5e651.jpg)

It doesn't appear to be saying anything...
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on December 07, 2012, 01:16:13 AM
Oaks are pretty much like the ents. It's slow, not silent mind.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on December 07, 2012, 01:24:44 AM
Oaks are pretty much like the ents. It's slow, not silent mind.
Ah you'll have to forgive me, I don't have much experience
speaking to oaks...

Well keep us posted if it says anything,

It would be great if it spoak  :)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on December 07, 2012, 06:40:39 AM
Most definitely - the oak that spoak.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on December 07, 2012, 07:03:01 AM
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4073/4775418973_0c68b5e651.jpg)

It doesn't appear to be saying anything...

Could the oak be a possible replacement for Carra?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on December 07, 2012, 09:40:17 AM
I shall speak to it.

Also from the Echo:

Quote
Aside from finals, the Reds had won just two of their nine previous European games on Italian soil. They had also failed to score in seven of those contests.

Well done Brendan and the team for improving that record!!!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on December 07, 2012, 12:45:30 PM
I shall speak to it.

Also from the Echo:

Well done Brendan and the team for improving that record!!!

Absolutely! If Brendan wants to qualify in such a manner where we had to add to that record then so be it...but it can come unstuck...maybe we're beginning to make our own luck.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 07, 2012, 12:58:21 PM
Could the oak be a possible replacement for Carra?

much more movement in the lad, Oak.

faster too.

an upgrade.

mind you, in the above picture, he looks half cut.

maybe refuelling issues (like gascoigne)?

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 07, 2012, 01:05:37 PM
Quote
The Echo says: Aside from finals, the Reds had won just two of their nine previous European games on Italian soil. They had also failed to score in seven of those contests.

it's hardly comparing like-with-like

in the champions league (and european cups), we are playing the cream of Italy, on their own soil (ac milan, inter milan, juventus, etc)

playing udinese in the europa-dopa  league doesn't have the same ring to it, especially when they have nothing to play for.

but maybe our luck is changing, with that awful miss at the death by the udinese lad.

if henderson can score in europe, then maybe we have to up our expectations.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 07, 2012, 01:23:56 PM
It really must be hell when there's nothing that can make you happy lest Rafa the failure's being reinstated.

I dont know what pleases me the most - us winning the game and the group or that it represents further evidence your criticism is irrelevant and derives from bitterness over Rafa's sacking.

Martin, you gotta move on.  You gotta stop bringing up this Rafa character every other day.

It's a new day.  Sure, sure, okay, it;s not AC Milan or Barcelona that we're playing, but hey, we're kicking sand in the faces of FC Young Boys and Udinese.

Through the wind and the pain, we shall prevail.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 07, 2012, 01:29:20 PM
I go back believing that the new day is coming. And so this afternoon, I have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day, right down in Woolton and Birkenhead and Bootle, the sons of former Evertonians and the sons of former Liverpoolites will be able to live together as brothers.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on December 07, 2012, 01:51:24 PM
Could the oak be a possible replacement for Carra?
Dunno, I think Forest are in for him  :)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 07, 2012, 02:44:55 PM
Dunno, I think Forest are in for him  :)

 :D :D :D :D :D

good one, ED!!!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 07, 2012, 05:41:24 PM
Yeah, it was wrong of me to feel disappointed after coming on here expecting people to be happy with this massive result and perfomance only to find the same folks talking about tiddly winks and crap.

It was wrong of me to expect people to give cred where it's due instead of spouting belittling and sniping remarks toward the manager of this club. Now you tell me. it's beyond me why anyone would do such a thing. It's hardly about "having an opinion".

Ah well, I'll probably get a better respond talking to the oak tree on the back side of me house.

Martin, just who was having a go and what did they say about last night's game?

What I fail to understand is why, when you fancy a moan, it's OK, whatever you feel the need to say, but anyone else who doesn't drool over Rodgers' abilities with every post they make is bang out of order, and even worse get accused of being a "bitter Rafalite".

Try and give us all a bit more notice when the 'window of non praise' is open and when it's about to close bang shut again.

Just in case you missed it, here was my opinion on last night, for your approval  ;D:

I was going to post something along the lines of how much better our manager had dealt with this game in comparison with earlier ones in the competition. How well our manager appeared to have got the message through of playing the clock down and keeping possession. Of how sensible he was to rest Agger and Lucas, but use Suarez as he couldn't play on Sunday. How for once it was a good idea to use Carra's experience to help see this through. How sensible it was to be more cautious and play Enrique at left back meaning we didn't expose ourselves having Drowning there. How it was inspired to use Suso as he combines well with Suarez and could theoretically help us keep possession better, being a more technical player, despite his young age, and how he could help us utilise that possession better going forward in order to increase our chances of getting  at least the one goal we'd required as a minimum.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 07, 2012, 05:43:53 PM
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4073/4775418973_0c68b5e651.jpg)

It doesn't appear to be saying anything...

Stunned silence at Rodgers' mastery/inexperienced muddlings. Delete as appropriate, as the oak can't. If you ask me, it doesn't look very happy about something. (Probably Downing getting another game).
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 07, 2012, 05:47:15 PM
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4073/4775418973_0c68b5e651.jpg)

It doesn't appear to be saying anything...

It's mouth's full of a whole hotdog. Disgwaceful.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 07, 2012, 05:48:07 PM
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4073/4775418973_0c68b5e651.jpg)

It doesn't appear to be saying anything...

Just watched a certain episode of 'Being Liverpool'?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 07, 2012, 07:46:24 PM
Try and give us all a bit more notice when the 'window of non praise' is open and when it's about to close bang shut again.

 :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 08, 2012, 12:55:09 AM
:D :D :D :D :D

It's exactly what it feels like though, Dude, all joking apart.

Those of us who weren't convinced he was the type of manager we required, not just him personally, but a manager of his ilk, have yet to be convinced that that is in the best interests of the club. And then there's him personally, well professionally, as I've no need to like our manager as a person, to like, believe in, respect and admire him as a manager. Sourness being a prime example as a player.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on December 08, 2012, 01:29:24 AM
Dunno, I think Forest are in for him  :)

:D :D :D :D :D

good one, ED!!!
It's a shame cos we could have played tree at the back.  ;D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 20, 2012, 09:12:08 PM
Zenit away. If we get through that then it's Basel or Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 20, 2012, 09:21:42 PM
Zenit away. If we get through that then it's Basel or Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk.

Zenit St Petersburg fans want black and gay players excluded: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20770678 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20770678)

Will it make one iota of difference to Rodgers' team selection?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 20, 2012, 09:56:52 PM
Zenit away. If we get through that then it's Basel or Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk.
more big nights in europe await us.    Wonder if we can progress past these heavyweights. 


Zenit St Petersburg fans want black and gay players excluded: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20770678 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20770678)

Will it make one iota of difference to Rodgers' team selection?

cue soundbyte opportunity pre-game for Sir Brendan to tell every microphone  about the importance of equality, and discussion of his time in N Ireland and the religious discrimination he saw there, etc, etc.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 20, 2012, 10:28:36 PM
more big nights in europe await us.    Wonder if we can progress past these heavyweights. 


cue soundbyte opportunity pre-game for Sir Brendan to tell every microphone  about the importance of equality, and discussion of his time in N Ireland and the religious discrimination he saw there, etc, etc.

This'll go down well.  ;D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 20, 2012, 11:15:07 PM
This'll go down well.  ;D

we should be grateful to have a wise old sage, that has traversed the planet, and has brought all his wisdom to bare, to anfield.

without brendan's timely arrival, i would be illeterate, i wood too all what is guing on in wurld.


Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on December 20, 2012, 11:22:55 PM
we should be grateful to have a wise old sage, that has traversed the planet, and has brought all his wisdom to bare, to anfield.

without brendan's timely arrival, i would be illeterate, i wood too all what is guing on in wurld.

Yew cud tri the Gruadian
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on December 20, 2012, 11:43:51 PM
Yew cud tri the Gruadian

the Dally Star turrned me doun
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on January 05, 2013, 11:28:01 PM
Sturridge is cup tied for the EL with Chelsea now being in it.  Suarez will still have to carry the load but hopefully can get the odd rest now Sturridge is here.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on January 05, 2013, 11:35:47 PM
Sturridge is cup tied for the EL with Chelsea now being in it.

no flies on our management.

we will have factored that in when we gave Chelsea 12 million upfront, and maybe another 3 to come.

/sarcasm mode off
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on January 06, 2013, 12:54:18 PM
no flies on our management.

we will have factored that in when we gave Chelsea 12 million upfront, and maybe another 3 to come.

/sarcasm mode off

Whilst it doesn't matter from next season, and Sturridge gets a recovery window, I would have hoped we could have used the fact to negotiate a discount.
We desperately need a hard headed negotiator like Levy, or either of Dein or Ivan Gazidis.

We need to be known as a club that asks (and gets) high prices when selling and will only pay sensible prices when buying, so that teams learn it's pointless 'trying it on' when we enquire about their player.

But for that to happen FSG need to address the current problem, Ian Ayre. I won't hold my breath on that one.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on February 13, 2013, 06:53:25 PM
Strikes me this tournament represents
salvation for the club this season.

I know there are a few on here who don't
value it, but there are some good clubs
remaining in it.

The likes of Stevie & Carra might few it as
a swansong to their careers & young Coutinho
excelled in it last season (I think?). Suarez may
see it as a stage of sorts to showcase his talents
to European suitors.

Anyway, I see it as a test for the manager, after
a poor group campaign and exits from the domestic
cups, this represents an opportunity for him to
make amends.

I'm only relatively interested in our league campaign
now and would see a decent campaign in this tournament
as something to get excited about.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on February 13, 2013, 10:51:04 PM
I wouldn't play Gerrard or Carra or Suarez in this game.

My team and formation would be:-


----------------------------------Reina--------------------------


-------Johnson-----------Skrtel-------Agger------------Enrique-----------


---------------------------------Lucas---------------------------------------


----------------------Allen----------------Shelvey----------------------------


-------------Downing---------Borini---------------Suso---------------------


I'd like to see Borini play the full 90 mins down the middle. I'd like to see Allen have a run out and try and reclaim some form and I'd play Shelvey a bit more deeper than he was deployed on Monday.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 13, 2013, 11:34:17 PM
It probably represents the best chance of European football for next season and if given the chance of 5th in the league or winning this competition, I'd snatch your hand of for winning this competition.

Targets from European countries are  less likely to know where we finish in the league if it's not in the CL places, but much more likely to remember us winning this competition as the rest of Europe take it much more seriously than we seem to in this country.
It raises our profile in Europe more than a fifth place finish and best of all, it's a trophy. I'd never say no to any trophy.

It would also extend Rodgers' European education as far as possible also.

4th is gone, a chance of a trophy isn't. We're joint top of the all-time winners list with Inter and Juve - let's make ourselves the most successful in it.

Shanks and Paisley never turned their noses up at any trophy. I don't think we should start now.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on February 13, 2013, 11:36:21 PM
I wouldn't play Gerrard or Carra or Suarez in this game.

My team and formation would be:-


----------------------------------Reina--------------------------


-------Johnson-----------Skrtel-------Agger------------Enrique-----------


---------------------------------Lucas---------------------------------------


----------------------Allen----------------Shelvey----------------------------


-------------Downing---------Borini---------------Suso---------------------


I'd like to see Borini play the full 90 mins down the middle. I'd like to see Allen have a run out and try and reclaim some form and I'd play Shelvey a bit more deeper than he was deployed on Monday.


Is this a wind up?

Listen, the time for quirky selections and
experimentation is over or did the exit from
two domestic tournaments, a scraping
through the group stages and 9th in the league
pass you by?

The job of the manager is to get results and he'd
need to have his head examined if he sent that
team on the back of a home loss to West Brom.

What do you think, Zenit are some kind of pre-season
friendly team? Shakes head very wearily...

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on February 13, 2013, 11:38:52 PM
It probably represents the best chance of European football for next season and if given the chance of 5th in the league or winning this competition, I'd snatch your hand of for winning this competition.

Targets from European countries are  less likely to know where we finish in the league if it's not in the CL places, but much more likely to remember us winning this competition as the rest of Europe take it much more seriously than we seem to in this country.
It raises our profile in Europe more than a fifth place finish and best of all, it's a trophy. I'd never say no to any trophy.

It would also extend Rodgers' European education as far as possible also.

4th is gone, a chance of a trophy isn't. We're joint top of the all-time winners list with Inter and Juve - let's make ourselves the most successful in it.

Shanks and Paisley never turned their noses up at any trophy. I don't think we should start now.
I'm with you Tes! F**k the owners,
there's enough talent in the squad
to win this tournament.

I say we go for it!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 13, 2013, 11:41:25 PM
In Luciano Spalletti they have a very capable coach. We treat them like we did WBA and we may as well cancel the second leg now, as they will be out of sight after tomorrow night.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 13, 2013, 11:46:54 PM
I'm with you Tes! F**k the owners,
there's enough talent in the squad
to win this tournament.

I say we go for it!

Exactly. The big money of CL football is gone for another year. Winning the UEFA Cup will make both sponsorship and transfers a touch easier and more rewarding than a fifth place finish.
6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th etc are all meaningless in reality. Winning trophies isn't.
We may get more in prize money for 5th and no UEFA Cup than 8th and the UEFA Cup, but the overall benefits will prove greater for the latter than the former.

Trophies. Wasn't that what we used to be all about?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on February 13, 2013, 11:56:41 PM
Trophies. Wasn't that what we used to be all about?
At some point the gaffer has to break out of the
yes-man middle manager PR official role and start
managing the football club.

Either he has the talent and balls to do it or he doesn't.

Galvanising the squad and managing a swaggering/rampaging
campaign in Europe is the ideal vehicle for that & I know
the likes of Stevie, Carra, Suarez are up for it.

Another limp exit from a cup competition would be too much
to bear. I know managing the league & Europe is tough at
the best of times. But the job of gaffer at LFC is by definition
tough.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 14, 2013, 03:26:19 AM
Another limp exit from a cup competition would be too much
to bear.

I want to win the Europa League, obviously.  But the first half-decent side we face, will see our elimination.  If Zenith were in the midst of their season, then they could have done us over.

But Zenith haven't played a competitive game for over 2 months.  The Russian league closed down for it's winter break on December 11th.

So there will be no excuse if we do not get a good result tonight.

Rodgers is in the last chance saloon now - two potential banana skins await between now and Sunday evening - Zenith away, and Swansea at Anfield.

There were boos at Anfield after the WBA game.  There will be far more unsettled supporters should Swansea beat us in our back yard too.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 14, 2013, 02:39:20 PM
I want to win the Europa League, obviously.  But the first half-decent side we face, will see our elimination.  If Zenith were in the midst of their season, then they could have done us over.

But Zenith haven't played a competitive game for over 2 months.  The Russian league closed down for it's winter break on December 11th.

So there will be no excuse if we do not get a good result tonight.

Rodgers is in the last chance saloon now - two potential banana skins await between now and Sunday evening - Zenith away, and Swansea at Anfield.

There were boos at Anfield after the WBA game.  There will be far more unsettled supporters should Swansea beat us in our back yard too.

I agree with all that, Dude, especially as Swansea convincingly dumped us out of the League Cup.

If we're to say that Rodgers stays in the Summer, we need him to win the competition in order to gain maximum European experience and get us back into Europe again for next season. He would also need to gain as much European experience next season, as if it's our intention to get top four next season (no chance of it happening this season) and therefore at least be playing a CL qualifier in season 2014/15, he desperately needs to gain as much European experience as possible having previously gained none in his two previous full season as a manager.

I hate it when the crowd boo at Anfield. Not so much the booing itself, but the fact that they feel they have a reason to boo.
In one way I wish they wouldn't, but on the other hand the players need to know when they simply haven't performed to a minimum standard. The minimum asked for is effort and desire. Being beaten can be accepted if those things are clearly demonstrated.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on February 14, 2013, 06:33:07 PM
Playing Allen instead of Lucas is a brilliant masterstroke...
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 14, 2013, 06:47:24 PM
http://youtu.be/uV8a0-cXzNs (http://youtu.be/uV8a0-cXzNs)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 14, 2013, 06:52:59 PM
I agree with all that, Dude, especially as Swansea convincingly dumped us out of the League Cup.

If we're to say that Rodgers stays in the Summer, we need him to win the competition in order to gain maximum European experience and get us back into Europe again for next season.

it's pretty much over as far as Europe is concerned this season.

having to now win 3-0 at Anfield, against standard European opposition, reminds me of the Graeme Souness management era at Liverpool.

Rodgers (sadly) is way out of his depth.  Zenith should not be on our level, at the best of times......but to not have played a competitive game in over two months, and yet to have walked all over us tonight, is unforgivable.

It's over for Rodgers. 
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 14, 2013, 06:55:34 PM
Playing Allen instead of Lucas is a brilliant masterstroke...

yes, madness.  In europe, away from home especially, you want to keep things tight, and have people who can fight for the ball and not be knocked off it easily. 

Our manager has a lot to learn.  I wish he would learn his trade at another club.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on February 14, 2013, 07:12:25 PM
yes, madness.  In europe, away from home especially, you want to keep things tight, and have people who can fight for the ball and not be knocked off it easily. 

Our manager has a lot to learn.  I wish he would learn his trade at another club.

Any well organised team can beat us because Rodgers has no tactical nous. We haven't beaten anyone of worth all season and now we're out of the 3 cups by early Feb...
He'll be gone in the summer...dead man walking...we'll avoid relegation...and that will be the highlight of 2012/2013...
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 14, 2013, 07:53:31 PM
Our manager has a lot to learn.  I wish he would learn his trade at another club.

If FFP even has gums, nevermind teeth, we can't the years it will take for him to get up to speed.

It's not long before our two main sponsorship deals are up for renewal, and our revenue from the new ones will decrease by 50% if we're lucky.
Mediocrity attracts mediocrity.

We've lost two and half seasons with the totally flawed appointments Henry and Co have made. Even if Rodgers goes (and that opens up another whole area of worry) does anyone actually think that any of the people that would be involved in the decision making will actually have an idea that won't send us running for the hills and reaching for the prozac. They'll simply waste many millions paying off Rodgers and his staff, spend many more acquiring the wrong choice, and having used up most of the available funds, will expect the new man to make us into a top four team with the majority of the mid table squad we have. 

For the sake of the appearance of stability and to save us wasting many millions just to make the same mistake again, I'd almost have Rodgers stay another season. I know, it's frightening, but with the trio of Henry, Werner and Ayre in charge of managerial recruitment all the options are busts.

I'd be in favour of bringing in a senior appointment as a sporting director or something similar to give Rodgers a hand. He needs experienced help and that way if he doesn't like it, and they can appoint who they want whether Rodgers likes it or not, it will be his decision to walk not their's to send him packing. If he stays, we get the experienced, knowledgable head that is desperately required.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 14, 2013, 11:13:10 PM
We've lost two and half seasons with the totally flawed appointments Henry and Co have made.

For the sake of the appearance of stability and to save us wasting many millions just to make the same mistake again, I'd almost have Rodgers stay another season. I know, it's frightening, but with the trio of Henry, Werner and Ayre in charge of managerial recruitment all the options are busts.

I'd be in favour of bringing in a senior appointment as a sporting director or something similar to give Rodgers a hand.

I suspect that Rodgers is no more than  Brain Kidd type - i.e. a decent assistant, nothing more.

I'd like to see someone like Roy Evans behind the scenes - in a reestablished bootroom.

Add to that a great bloke like John Aldridge.  These are people of immense experience, who are not being used.

As for a Director of Football - never been my thing, Tes.

But like you, I feel the change has to start at the top.  And as I have predicted so many times since  the summer, if FSG are not careful, by April and May, the fans at Anfield, will not merely be calling for the Rodger's head, they will be calling for FSG to go.

Times are not good.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 15, 2013, 12:33:19 AM
I suspect that Rodgers is no more than  Brain Kidd type - i.e. a decent assistant, nothing more.

I'd like to see someone like Roy Evans behind the scenes - in a reestablished bootroom.

Add to that a great bloke like John Aldridge.  These are people of immense experience, who are not being used.

As for a Director of Football - never been my thing, Tes.

But like you, I feel the change has to start at the top.  And as I have predicted so many times since  the summer, if FSG are not careful, by April and May, the fans at Anfield, will not merely be calling for the Rodger's head, they will be calling for FSG to go.

Times are not good.

I'd love to know who 'supposedly' has been advising FSG, or is that something they've just put about to deflect the heat and responsibility for the absolute cluster f&ck they've made of every senior appointment.

I think one of the problems lies in their attitude to football and sport in general. American sports are franchises that have no roots in or commitment to the place and area that bears the name of the franchise. If one place doesn't suit they're transplanted elsewhere - it's a very shallow attitude.
Also, each sports franchise in each sport is set up to to make money for the ownership whilst providing entertainment, a leisure activity and a day out for the family. The sporting aspect is secondary despite the huge fuss made of schlorships at junior levels. Again, it's all about certain components making money. The result is almost of no importance, as long as a good day's entertainment was had by all and the tills continued ringing throughout the day.

Then there's the sport itself - soccer. Americans on the whole have total disregard for non-American sports. Ice Hockey is probably the least liked by neutrals as it wasn't an American invention.
They even want American football as an Olympic sport such is the distorted view they have of their own three main sports.
So soccer first of all isn't an American sport and despite it being a truly worldwide sport, they still disregard it as their idea of the world is also stilted.
Soccer is seen as a past time for Mums to get involved with their children and is more popular amongst women, both playing and supporting in some way. So then it's not even seen as a proper sport, a man's sport - Alpha male derides again.

The owners simply have no interest in 'footie' and then you factor in an owner's approach and view of what sport is about in America and then you start to see where the owners are approaching this from.
It's typical that they though a bloke who was successful in baseball (one of 'their' sports) would know sufficent to ask the advice of and take when appointing Comolli. If he's successful in baseball and as it's only soccer, he's therefore bound to know what he's on about, how hard can it be to understand a non-American sport. They're not real sports afterall so there can't be much to it.
No one in their right mind would have appointed Comolli as a DOF after the things Wenger had to say about him and his failed stint at Spurs and impotent effect at St Etienne, or least anyone who had knowledge of such.
But Billy Beane's a baseball person with a passing interest in soccerball. How would he know of such things? I bet he can barely name the Spurs team and he supposedly supports them.
But they're arrogant and disrespecting enough to think he would.

Outside of Billy Beane I've never heard of any other names whispered as who might be helping them. I don't why, it's just a feeling I can't shake, but I'd not be the least bit shocked if Purslow's advice had ever been sort.

Look at the totally flawed appointment of Hodgeson and the case the media made for it and the signing of Joe Cole, good player, ignore the injuries and the complete lack of form for the previous two seasons and you've got a 'great' player available on a free. They're sort of obvious choices to someone who thinks they know about football when really they are clueless.
So appoint Dalglish, he's a Liverpool legend, won the double as a player manager, that's bound to work. Totally flawed logic (ignores all the years out of the game, the f@ck ups at Celtic and Newcastle) he's a Liverpool legend. Likewise Rodgers. Young manager, talks a good game, has a newly promoted team playing pretty (for a newly promoted team) if non effective football (conveniently ignore that bit and the fact they shipped more goals than they scored) and you have a manager who on the surface espouses Liverpool style football, so appoint him.

Dalglish and Rodgers appointments have the same flawed logic as the Hodgeson appointment and the Cole signing. On the surface you could see the idea, look below the surface and it's madness but the image part of it would seem to fit the requirement.

That's my conspiracy theory and I'm sticking to it.  :D  :D   :D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Gurdeep on February 15, 2013, 09:05:47 AM
Times match report


Tony Barrett St Petersburg
Published at 12:00AM, February 15 2013

Of all the potential problems that Liverpool anticipated upon their arrival in Russia, the only ones that transpired were those they caused themselves. This was not a night when football was blighted by racism, as some had predicted it would be — merely one when Liverpool were once again undone by their own shortcomings.

This time it was the turn of Zenit St Petersburg to be the beneficiaries, just as West Bromwich Albion had been three days earlier; the Russian champions secured a two-goal lead to take into next week’s second leg at Anfield. Liverpool will rue the chances that they wasted and the ones they served up to their opponents as a familiar story of attacking profligacy and defensive fragility unfolded in Russia’s second city.

This latest setback means Liverpool’s hopes for the season are on the brink of being extinguished in mid-February. Only a remarkable and wholly unexpected upsurge in form would revive their chances of achieving a top-four finish in the Premier League and the two unanswered goals from Hulk and Sergei Semak have ensured that they are also teetering on the edge of elimination from the Europa League.

Brendan Rodgers held a team meeting before the game where he told Liverpool’s black players that they should inform the referee if they were subjected to any racist abuse. Mercifully, there was no cause for such action to be taken as a vociferous but well-behaved home crowd refused to offer any ammunition to those who had billed them as Europe’s most racist fans.

Although Rodgers took precautions, he had also insisted that he would not allow his team selection to be dictated by fears of racism. Glen Johnson and Raheem Sterling started the game and neither had to put up with anything other than a sporting challenge, providing, if not a cause for celebration, then certainly a reason for relief.

Not that there was any respite for the Liverpool manager, who saw his side concede twice for the twentieth time in an increasingly testing season. A campaign that began with positive visions of a new era is crumbling under the weight of repeated failings that continue to undermine Liverpool at almost every turn. If there has been progress, then it has been largely in the eyes of the beholder, with results yet to show any significant sign of improvement.

If anything, the indications are that Liverpool’s regression as a club is continuing, a feeling that grew last night only four years after they celebrated victory over Real Madrid at the Bernabéu in the Champions League. Their decline has been as rapid as it has been humbling and the challenge for Rodgers now is to prevent it from becoming even more pronounced.

Circled by the frozen River Neva and surrounded by hundreds of heavily armed police officers, the Petrovsky Stadium was never going to provide anything other than a hostile settling for Liverpool, but they could have made their first visit there a memorable one had they not been so wasteful.

Chances were traded with remarkable regularity during an entertaining first half, with Pepe Reina saving well from Aleksandr Kerzhakov and Hulk before Axel Witsel finally beat the Spanish goalkeeper only to see his shot strike an upright. If anything, Liverpool, and Luis Suárez in particular, were even more wasteful and squandered a series of opportunities.

Suárez missed three chances in the first half alone, as he dragged a shot past the far post after dancing around Neto, then took a heavy touch when attempting to round Vyacheslav Malafeev, the Zenit goalkeeper, and finally flicked a backheel wide to complete the set. When the Uruguayan missed the target with a curling effort from the edge of the penalty area and Malafeev thwarted Johnson’s surge forward, so the likelihood increased of Liverpool being hit by a sucker punch.

As it was, they were hit not by one but by two. Hulk had admitted in the build-up to the tie that his move to Zenit from Porto had been motivated by finance not football, but he provided a reminder of his quality with a stunning strike from 25 yards to give Luciano Spalletti’s side an advantage that they perhaps did not deserve.

Liverpool’s habit of losing games that they should win, even games that they deserve to win, undermined them once again and Semak, the substitute, appeared unchallenged at the back post to finish off Aleksandr Anyukov’s searching cross from the right. Once again, they had been complicit in their own downfall.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on February 15, 2013, 01:11:11 PM
I suspect that Rodgers is no more than  Brain Kidd type - i.e. a decent assistant, nothing more.

I'd like to see someone like Roy Evans behind the scenes - in a reestablished bootroom.

Add to that a great bloke like John Aldridge.  These are people of immense experience, who are not being used.

As for a Director of Football - never been my thing, Tes.

But like you, I feel the change has to start at the top.  And as I have predicted so many times since  the summer, if FSG are not careful, by April and May, the fans at Anfield, will not merely be calling for the Rodger's head, they will be calling for FSG to go.

Times are not good.

...'Near perfect away performance' says Brendan Rodgers after last nights debacle. Does he live in a land where down is up and right is left?

Absolutely agree with bringing Roy Evans and Aldridge into the fold...

Rodgers isn't even up to Brian Kidds standard...how FSG seriously considered him or Martinez simply means that even Brendan is shown the door, there's no guarantee of picking the right replacement manager.
There are only a few who could do the job of rebuild, spend slightly, and get us winning again; whether FSG could notice that is under severe doubt.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 15, 2013, 02:33:07 PM
...'Near perfect away performance' says Brendan Rodgers after last nights debacle.

What do you do in response to that, cringe or vomit. It's like the quote after the Sunderland game last season when Swansea had been beaten 2-0.

"It is great for the public here at Sunderland to see us. They must have been wondering what this team everyone is talking about are all about and now they have seen. We were wonderful."

For some strange reason (at least to some) that comment and the one last night is something I find worrying and disturbing. How I wish I wasn't so negative and I could just nod my head in agreement with what our manager says. Sometimes I really hate being me.  :D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 15, 2013, 03:08:07 PM
...'Near perfect away performance' says Brendan Rodgers after last nights debacle. Does he live in a land where down is up and right is left?

Absolutely agree with bringing Roy Evans and Aldridge into the fold...

Rodgers isn't even up to Brian Kidds standard...how FSG seriously considered him or Martinez simply means that even Brendan is shown the door, there's no guarantee of picking the right replacement manager.
There are only a few who could do the job of rebuild, spend slightly, and get us winning again; whether FSG could notice that is under severe doubt.

yes, for me, FSG have to sell up (appointing people to run the club is beyond their abilities or motivations); Ayres has to get demoted to Marketing & Bingo Night Manager; and Rodgers has to be sent packing.

Yes, in a dream world, I'd have Aldridge and Evans in a new bootroom.  Maybe even Phil Thompson too.  I'd have Rafa back at the helm; or someone of his pedigree.  Klopp would be a massive scoop (like Rafa was for us in 2004), but he is not interested in leaving Dortmund, sadly.  Carlo Ancelotti would be a massive scoop - but is unlikely to leave PSG anytime soon.

Fabio Capello would have been worth a shout in the past.  But apart from a league title with Madrid in 2007, just about all his success was achieved in the 90s.  But he is a good manager (66 years old, possibly a few years too old).

Gene Hackman (aka Luiz Felipe Scolari) similarly, at one time, might have been an interesting appointment.

Malaga's Manuel Pellegrini is often mentioned.  But apart from an Inter-toto cup with Villareal in 2004, he has won nought in club football in Europe.

To be honest, at this point, I would even support the appointment of Jose Mourinho.  We have not one a title in over 20 years.....never once have we won a premiership title.  If he can bring us that first elusive title, then so be it.

No, what our fu.kw.its will do, is appoint some flavour of the month, who has limited abilities, like a sacked Man City's Mancini.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 15, 2013, 03:12:57 PM
Quote
Brent reckoned that "It is great for the public here at Sunderland to see us. They must have been wondering what this team everyone is talking about are all about and now they have seen. We were wonderful."

one has to read and re-read that quote, to take in all the self-delusion, self-back-patting, spin, deceit and arrogance.

it must be top of the all-time premiership quotes of all-time. 

Even David O'Leary would struggle to compete with Rodgers in full-flow.


Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 15, 2013, 04:54:58 PM
Brent's ego burns up in Russian airspace.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/15/meteorite-explodes-over-russian-urals-live-updates (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/15/meteorite-explodes-over-russian-urals-live-updates)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on February 15, 2013, 06:11:22 PM
Brent's ego burns up in Russian airspace.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/15/meteorite-explodes-over-russian-urals-live-updates (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/15/meteorite-explodes-over-russian-urals-live-updates)

Good one Dude  ;D

...'Near perfect away performance' says Brendan Rodgers after last nights debacle.
Hold up a sec, my understanding is that he meant up until
the goals were conceded. I would agree however that it is
a case of him learning his trade in Europe this season, he's
a novice, noob, absolute beginner in that arena.

Anyway 9th in the league, out of two cups and on the way out
of Europe...Somewhere over Liverpool I see a giant G symbol.
If ever the script was written for our superhuman captain Marvel,
then this is surely it.

I think this chapter of heroics is tentatively titled "Bottom of the Ninth".
If nothing else I enjoy a good old European tie with the odds stacked
against us  ;D

The gaffer, if he knows his history, would do well to see the 2nd
leg as an opportunity to endear himself to the faithful and ride a
wave to the end of the season ('cos frankly he's lost the narrative
of late and has never had the aura of mystique that goes with the gig).

Course he has to deliver and would do well to watch the verbal.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on February 15, 2013, 07:40:13 PM
...'Near perfect away performance' says Brendan Rodgers after last nights debacle.

And he wasn't alone describing it that way. I would agree. But hey, what do a player with 700 games in a red shirt really know? ::)
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on February 15, 2013, 08:07:07 PM
I'd love to know who 'supposedly' has been advising FSG, or is that something they've just put about to deflect the heat and responsibility for the absolute cluster f&ck they've made of every senior appointment.

I think one of the problems lies in their attitude to football and sport in general. American sports are franchises that have no roots in or commitment to the place and area that bears the name of the franchise. If one place doesn't suit they're transplanted elsewhere - it's a very shallow attitude.
Also, each sports franchise in each sport is set up to to make money for the ownership whilst providing entertainment, a leisure activity and a day out for the family. The sporting aspect is secondary despite the huge fuss made of schlorships at junior levels. Again, it's all about certain components making money. The result is almost of no importance, as long as a good day's entertainment was had by all and the tills continued ringing throughout the day.

Then there's the sport itself - soccer. Americans on the whole have total disregard for non-American sports. Ice Hockey is probably the least liked by neutrals as it wasn't an American invention.
They even want American football as an Olympic sport such is the distorted view they have of their own three main sports.
So soccer first of all isn't an American sport and despite it being a truly worldwide sport, they still disregard it as their idea of the world is also stilted.
Soccer is seen as a past time for Mums to get involved with their children and is more popular amongst women, both playing and supporting in some way. So then it's not even seen as a proper sport, a man's sport - Alpha male derides again.

The owners simply have no interest in 'footie' and then you factor in an owner's approach and view of what sport is about in America and then you start to see where the owners are approaching this from.
It's typical that they though a bloke who was successful in baseball (one of 'their' sports) would know sufficent to ask the advice of and take when appointing Comolli. If he's successful in baseball and as it's only soccer, he's therefore bound to know what he's on about, how hard can it be to understand a non-American sport. They're not real sports afterall so there can't be much to it.
No one in their right mind would have appointed Comolli as a DOF after the things Wenger had to say about him and his failed stint at Spurs and impotent effect at St Etienne, or least anyone who had knowledge of such.
But Billy Beane's a baseball person with a passing interest in soccerball. How would he know of such things? I bet he can barely name the Spurs team and he supposedly supports them.
But they're arrogant and disrespecting enough to think he would.

Outside of Billy Beane I've never heard of any other names whispered as who might be helping them. I don't why, it's just a feeling I can't shake, but I'd not be the least bit shocked if Purslow's advice had ever been sort.

Look at the totally flawed appointment of Hodgeson and the case the media made for it and the signing of Joe Cole, good player, ignore the injuries and the complete lack of form for the previous two seasons and you've got a 'great' player available on a free. They're sort of obvious choices to someone who thinks they know about football when really they are clueless.
So appoint Dalglish, he's a Liverpool legend, won the double as a player manager, that's bound to work. Totally flawed logic (ignores all the years out of the game, the f@ck ups at Celtic and Newcastle) he's a Liverpool legend. Likewise Rodgers. Young manager, talks a good game, has a newly promoted team playing pretty (for a newly promoted team) if non effective football (conveniently ignore that bit and the fact they shipped more goals than they scored) and you have a manager who on the surface espouses Liverpool style football, so appoint him.

Dalglish and Rodgers appointments have the same flawed logic as the Hodgeson appointment and the Cole signing. On the surface you could see the idea, look below the surface and it's madness but the image part of it would seem to fit the requirement.

That's my conspiracy theory and I'm sticking to it.  :D  :D   :D

First thing first. FSG did not appoint Hodgson, they inherited him as manager. Nor did they sign Joe Cole.

Make sure of those facts please.

Secondly FSG may have hired Comolli on the advice of Beane but Comolli was a well known DoF in europe too. So they had a punt on him and it didn't work out. But they were proactive in hiring him and in firing him too.

Thirdly yes they did buy Liverpool because of its great business sense. They see us as a business and have not said otherwise have they. They haven't spoon fed us rubbish by saying things they don't mean. Yes they do want to make a profit but they also want to make us self sufficient too. Which is good thing.

They hired Dalglish because after Hodgson they needed someone to unite the supporters and get instant command and respect of the dressing room. I am convinced that they only wanted him for that 10/11 season, but due to supporter demand and how we finished the season they did the easy option and signed him to a deal. I mean who can blame them for that. I mean look at the reaction of Dalglish's sacking a year later.

But they've always wanted to sign a young, hungry manager who wants to integrate the young players into the team and to give us long term ideals on the way we play. They should have stuck to their guns and got a DoF too - that was their big mistake.

They have given a better foundation for the youth team to grow. They have spent heavily in that area in terms of recruitment.

The destiny of whether in the future we see them as good/great custodians will come down to three things.

1) Stadium redevelopment/New Ground

2) Rodgers

3) Investment into the team

IMO on No.3 its a big YES for FSG. it's not their fault the money was wasted. On No.1 They haven't said any bullshit about a spade in 60 days or made any commitments or promises that they cannot abide by. Only when they say something concrete about No.1 will be the time to judge. ATM as they haven't made any promises that they can't deliver then it is a yes......at this time.
On No.2 and Rodgers the jury is still out. They wanted progress in terms of our performance in the league - the main reason why they sacked KK - so in terms of being points wise closer to the top 5 then ok. Obviously there are major concerns about everything else, but they will give Rodgers time because he is their appointment.

The only way Rodgers will be gone before 2015 is if we are 15+ points behind 4th for the next two years and we are continually going out in the early rounds of the cups. If progress, albeit small, is happening each year Rodgers isn't going anytime soon.

But Tes it is very important that you realise FSG didn't appoint Hodgson or buy Cole.

As to who are advising them, well for a fact David Dein has but apart from him we don't know.

A BTW. There is no way in hell I want to see Roy Evans at the club again in any capacity. The man is legend for us in his own way, but there is no way I'd want him back.

I do agree experience is necessary, but not specifically LFC experience. Football experience.



Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 15, 2013, 08:09:56 PM
And he wasn't alone describing it that way. I would agree.   But hey, what do a player with 700 games in a red shirt really know? ::)

Martin, you owe me a knew keyboard as I spat my coffee all over it reading that.

You and Brendan agree. All's well. League Champions next season then, hey?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 15, 2013, 09:01:34 PM
First thing first. FSG did not appoint Hodgson, they inherited him as manager. Nor did they sign Joe Cole.

Make sure of those facts please.

Edward, re-read it mate. I never stated NESV (FSG) appointed Hodgson, and bought in Cole. Thanks but I'm fully aware of who the owners were, who the CEO was who made the appointment and who actually brought in Cole. Nowhere have I stated it was FSG, or NESV as they were then. Why would I?
I was comparing the flawed decisions of Purslow in doing those two things with the flawed appointments of Dalglish on a three year deal and also of Rodgers. You've obviously misunderstood. The latter two decisions bear all the hallmarks of the first two, even though the two lots were under different owners. In all of it, I smell Purslow's involvement. Now do you understand?


Secondly FSG may have hired Comolli on the advice of Beane but Comolli was a well known DoF in europe too. So they had a punt on him and it didn't work out. But they were proactive in hiring him and in firing him too.

Comolli's first appointment as a DOF was Spurs, where he was sacked with Levy being less than complimentary about him. His only other DOF role was with St Etienne. Again, their president was non too complimentary about him. I doubt Henry and Co have heard of St Etienne, nevermind know who their DOF was at the time. Do you not see the problem of asking a baseball person advice about football and about something as indepth and crucial as a DOF? I doubt Beane has the understanding of a DOF's role. Maybe you've not had the same depth of contact with Americans and their sports psyche to understand how wrong they were.

Thirdly yes they did buy Liverpool because of its great business sense. They see us as a business and have not said otherwise have they. They haven't spoon fed us rubbish by saying things they don't mean. Yes they do want to make a profit but they also want to make us self sufficient too. Which is good thing.

Self sufficency I've never had a problem with, and have been consistent in saying so, but what about winning? Does that not matter anymore?


They hired Dalglish because after Hodgson they needed someone to unite the supporters and get instant command and respect of the dressing room. I am convinced that they only wanted him for that 10/11 season,

That's where we agree, he was perfect to see us through to the end of the season. I've never stated otherwise

but due to supporter demand and how we finished the season they did the easy option and signed him to a deal. I mean who can blame them for that.

Taking the wrong option for the wrong reason is crass stupidity. Dalglish's record after Blackburn was appalling, not to mention his non involvement in football for over a decade. There was no sensible or rational basis for appointing him permanently. It's the exact sort of decision Ayre or Purslow would advise. Executive fans blinded by sentiment. Are you starting to understand what I'm saying about Purslow's involvement. It has his fingerprints all over it. He appointed Hodgeson on flawed logic. He brought in Cole, Hodgson didn't, on flawed logic, and since when is it the job of a CEO to decide who to buy off his own back?

I mean look at the reaction of Dalglish's sacking a year later.

The reaction was split. Some said he should have had another year, others that despite who he was it was the right decision based on the 2nd half of the league season. What everyone agrees on is the way he was sacked. Totally disrespectful

But they've always wanted to sign a young, hungry manager who wants to integrate the young players into the team and to give us long term ideals on the way we play. They should have stuck to their guns and got a DoF too - that was their big mistake.

Agreed, yet another mistake. Yet another backtrack and flipflop


They have given a better foundation for the youth team to grow. They have spent heavily in that area in terms of recruitment.

The academy re-organisation was Benitez's doing. McParland, Segura, Borrell. All his appointments

The destiny of whether in the future we see them as good/great custodians will come down to three things.

1) Stadium redevelopment/New Ground
Agreed, I've never stated otherwise

2) Rodgers
 
Managerial appointsment have all been flawed due to their lack of knowledge and lack of appointments to crucial positions who could have guided them.

3) Investment into the team

I've no problem with that, other than who they've entrusted to spend the money. The amount spent for a team without CL football or money is quite impressive.

IMO on No.3 its a big YES for FSG. it's not their fault the money was wasted. On No.1 They haven't said any bullshit about a spade in 60 days or made any commitments or promises that they cannot abide by. Only when they say something concrete about No.1 will be the time to judge. ATM as they haven't made any promises that they can't deliver then it is a yes......at this time.

Werner's made some crass remarks, maybe you've missed them but I broadly agree otherwise.

On No.2 and Rodgers the jury is still out. They wanted progress in terms of our performance in the league - the main reason why they sacked KK - so in terms of being points wise closer to the top 5 then ok. Obviously there are major concerns about everything else, but they will give Rodgers time because he is their appointment.

So was Dalglish. They appointed him. Their choice. They have to carry the blame. No-one or nothing else.

The only way Rodgers will be gone before 2015 is if we are 15+ points behind 4th for the next two years and we are continually going out in the early rounds of the cups. If progress, albeit small, is happening each year Rodgers isn't going anytime soon.

But Tes it is very important that you realise FSG didn't appoint Hodgson or buy Cole.

Ed, as i said re-read what I wrote. I haven't said FSG appointed Hodgson, I'm fully aware it was Purslow.

As to who are advising them, well for a fact David Dein has but apart from him we don't know.

Look at Purslow, rather than Dein, and where was it made fact that Dein had actually advised them on anything of substance? It was hinted he'd had some involvement but on what and how much has never been confirmed or substantiated

A BTW. There is no way in hell I want to see Roy Evans at the club again in any capacity. The man is legend for us in his own way, but there is no way I'd want him back.

You have me muddled up with someone else on that one.

I do agree experience is necessary, but not specifically LFC experience. Football experience.

I've never said anything different, again you have me confused with someone else's posts.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 15, 2013, 09:33:15 PM
I don't know about you fellas, but I take great heart from the fact that it was nearly the perfect away performance.

would've; could've; should've; nearly; possibly; perhaps; maybe; might have; if only


Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 15, 2013, 10:11:37 PM
I don't know about you fellas, but I take great heart from the fact that it was nearly the perfect away performance.

would've; could've; should've; nearly; possibly; perhaps; maybe; might have; if only

Dude, give over. My sides have only just knitted back together from reading that Sunderland quote for the nth time trying to see what it was I must have missed.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 16, 2013, 04:40:10 PM
 :D

was it mere coincidence that that fireball streaking across the skies of Russia, occurred at the same time when the Liverpool boss's big head was flying back from Zenith.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on February 21, 2013, 06:26:44 PM
Reckon he starts with something like this! (if Wisdom is fit)
                 Reina
Wisdom, Carra, Agger, Johson
                  Lucas
          Gerrard Henderson
Downing                   Enrique
                 Suarez
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 21, 2013, 06:33:47 PM
if Zenith score, we have to score four.

so, for us to go through, and assuming zenit score......we will have to win 4-1, or 5-2 (if zenith nick a second goal)

but Brendan can only show us the way to the mountain top.  He cannot carry us there.   If we fail tonight, it will be because we did not believe hard enough. 

self-flagellation may be the way to go tomorrow (or Mistress Severe in Soho).

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on February 21, 2013, 08:01:31 PM
C'mon Lads!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 21, 2013, 09:12:11 PM
Quote
"In a few weeks there may be evidence of traces of Carra being found in supermarket burgers," chortles Ian Copestake, in the Gaurdian livefeed
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 21, 2013, 09:24:02 PM
game on!

Suarez, what a player.

Can we go on and win it.


Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 21, 2013, 09:30:01 PM
Shelvey  FFS keep your hair on.


Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on February 21, 2013, 10:00:39 PM
A fantastic fightback but sadly not quite enough. Hats off for a damn good performance. Damage done last week.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on February 21, 2013, 10:01:04 PM
Damage was done in the first leg. At least the players gave it a right good go tonight and didn't go out with a whimper.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 21, 2013, 10:04:34 PM
Great fightback but imagine if we could actually defend.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on February 21, 2013, 10:10:19 PM
Proud of the team and Anfield tonight - especially Anfield as I want to the crowd to be like that always.

When Allen and Henderson came off we lost composure in the middle, but if they ran out of puff, then not a lot we can do about that. Hopefully it will reinvigorate Allen to reproduce that on a more consistent basis.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on February 21, 2013, 10:42:50 PM
Proud of the team and Anfield tonight - especially Anfield as I want to the crowd to be like that always.

When Allen and Henderson came off we lost composure in the middle, but if they ran out of puff, then not a lot we can do about that. Hopefully it will reinvigorate Allen to reproduce that on a more consistent basis.

I can only assume like you that Allen and Henderson were getting tired. Can't see Rogers taking them off otherwise. Pity Shelvey didn't have a bit more composure. He could have been the hero tonight. Pleased with Allen. Hope to see more of that in games to come.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Martinmarx on February 21, 2013, 10:46:18 PM
I can only assume like you that Allen and Henderson were getting tired. Can't see Rogers taking them off otherwise. Pity Shelvey didn't have a bit more composure. He could have been the hero tonight. Pleased with Allen. Hope to see more of that in games to come.

At least I got one thing right.  :D We are where we are and we're a tad too lightweight at the moment. With Sturridge and Coutinho we would've strolled past this round so that gives us a hint that some players will be gone in the summer, most notably Downing and Shelvey.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on February 21, 2013, 10:47:28 PM
He wouldn't have as we were controlling the game, but with the intensity we produced at the start of the game, the more tired they became - especially as their were the main architects in setting the tempo for the likes of Gerrard, Downing and Suarez and along with Lucas were key in our ball retention.

Oh well. Onwards and upwards!

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on February 21, 2013, 11:09:14 PM
At least I got one thing right.  :D We are where we are and we're a tad too lightweight at the moment. With Sturridge and Coutinho we would've strolled past this round so that gives us a hint that some players will be gone in the summer, most notably Downing and Shelvey.

You get more things right than I give you credit for Martin.  :D I'd put Shelvey out on loan next season just to see if, at 20, he can learn and develop. Still undecided on Downing. He's played pretty well in recent weeks and we'd never get more than half our money back for him.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 21, 2013, 11:14:09 PM
we'd never get more than half our money back for him.

Considering we overpaid for him by a fair bit, if we got anything over £8M I'd be amazed and delighted.

He simply doesn't have the mentality to play at the level we require.

I imagine Arsenal fans are delighted they never signed him the Summer we did.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on February 21, 2013, 11:20:05 PM
Considering we overpaid for him by a fair bit, if we got anything over £8M I'd be amazed and delighted.

He simply doesn't have the mentality to play at the level we require.

I imagine Arsenal fans are delighted they never signed him the Summer we did.

There's no point selling him until a better replacement has been lined up. We shall have to wait to see if that happens. He's a decent enough player but his age is probably against him now. He won't get any better.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on February 21, 2013, 11:34:51 PM
Or we can use him as bait to sign another player!!!

What about Downing and £5m for Mignolet and Sessegnon!!!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 21, 2013, 11:58:09 PM
There's no point selling him until a better replacement has been lined up. We shall have to wait to see if that happens. He's a decent enough player but his age is probably against him now. He won't get any better.

Sorry Ray, but I was answering your point directly about his value. Whether to sell or not is another issue.
Whether we can afford to replace before selling or have to sell with the proceeds part funding his replacement is something we don't know.
At the moment sorting out the defence, both what to do as far as defending goes in play and how that translates to transfer movement of personnel looks to be a more pressing problem.

Downing could be a squad player, though an originally expensive one, or could be upgraded and shipped out, who knows, but I think there's more pressing areas. If nothing more, he can provide cover either side. I'm just so nonplused with him. Hugely disappointed in him. His last season at Villa was decent, not brilliant, but cheese to our chalk in comparison to what we've seen from him at any time since he arrived.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 22, 2013, 12:00:02 AM
Or we can use him as bait to sign another player!!!

What about Downing and £5m for Mignolet and Sessegnon!!!

O'Neill's not that daft. How's Sessegnon been this season? Not seen as much of him though I was reasonably impressed with him last season.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 22, 2013, 01:52:18 PM
Liverpool FC analysis: Sobering reality for Reds after Euro exit

IN the end not even the famous Anfield atmosphere could get Liverpool FC over the line. But boy did it try.

“Your club needs you!” boomed the back page of this paper yesterday morning, a call to arms to supporters, urging them to play the role of 12th man. The message was heeded, and then some. If ever a night showcased the importance of European football to this club, then this was it.

Even if, in the end, the cause was to prove a lost one.

Fans were pouring into Anfield a good 45 minutes before kick-off here, determined to play their part. This was a return to better days, days when support equalled support. Their influence was tangible.

Of course noise alone was never going to be enough. There had been much talk of Liverpool “summoning the spirit” of previous European nights, but the caveat to that is that, more often than not, those achievements, those nights, came from special teams, filled with special players. They don't call them legends for nothing.

This side, of course, is not special. If that sounds blunt, then so be it. Liverpool's players will have gone home last night feeling hard done by, but ultimately it is their own mistakes that have cost them over the two legs of this tie.

Had Luis Suarez been as accurate from 10 yards last week as he was from 20 this, for example, then they would have had an away goal of their own to cling to. Had Glen Johnson not daydreamed at the far post a week ago, then this scoreline would have been enough. Jamie Carragher, of course, will have got less sleep than most last night.

There is cruelty in the manner in which Carragher's 150th and final European appearance will be remembered. His error, 19 minutes in, gifted Hulk what proved to be the tie's decisive goal. It marred an otherwise immaculate display.

It also managed, briefly, to silence the Kop. Not for long, mind. Within eight minutes, Suarez had them dreaming again. When Joe Allen marked arguably his best game for the club with a poacher's strike just before half-time, the noise was enough to cut through even the biting February cold.

But in the end, it was the hope that killed them. There was more than half an hour remaining when Suarez bashed in his second free kick of the evening but, despite bags of endeavour, there was to be no storybook finish this time.

“We were very proud of the club and the players tonight,” said Rodgers afterwards, though his pain was only half-concealed. He also felt his side had been denied a penalty when Tomas Hubocan appeared to handle in the area, though even a series of slow-motion replays proved inconclusive on that one.

The Ulsterman's debut campaign on Merseyside has been a trying one, full of false starts and sideways steps. Progression here would have been cathartic, but there was something in-keeping with the Reds' season that, ultimately, they should fall short despite offering plenty of promise.

If this performance, controlled, aggressive, dynamic, showed how far they have progressed under Rodgers, the fact that they are also-rans in the also-rans' European competition says more.

The Europa League may not be where a club of Liverpool's size and history sees itself, long term. It comes off second best when held up against the all-singing, all-dancing glitz and glamour of the Champions League, and never let any ITV4 executive tell you differently.

But beggars cannot be choosers. Exactly six years ago, Liverpool were heading home from the Nou Camp, having toppled Barcelona in their own back yard. They were on their way to a second European Cup final in three seasons, and developing into one of the continent's most accomplished sides under the guidance of Rafa Benitez. Europe lived in fear of Liverpool.

Not any more. Anfield may have retained its mystique, but Liverpool's team has not.The unravelling of the Benitez reign, precipitated by some of the most horrible mismanagement at boardroom level imaginable, saw the Reds dip out of the Champions League in 2009. The need to return has grown with every day that has passed since. It has become an obsession, an itch that has to be scratched.

Of course that is not to say that they shouldn't strive for more, or that they should settle for mediocrity. Liverpool should never settle for mediocrity. But reality bites. It certainly bit them hard in this tie.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2013/02/22/liverpool-fc-analysis-sobering-reality-for-reds-after-euro-exit-100252-32857950/#ixzz2LdSVKSXO

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 22, 2013, 05:53:43 PM
Hard to argue with any of that. Doesn't make for a nice bedtime story but it's real, and sometimes reality really is that negative.

Experience above all else needs to be brought into the club this Summer or we could find the route back being a road that goes nowhere.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on February 22, 2013, 07:21:17 PM
We've become the manure dominated press version of NICE...never ever get in the way of winning anything apart from the odd allowable cup.
Last night we got back into a position that we could have gone through. 3-1 up with half an hour to go...
What does Rodgers do?
Carry on with the substitution even though Suarez scored...any manager worth his salt would have sat back and said...we've scored 3 now...we're back in the game...we're controlling the game and dominating...run henderson etc into the ground....they'll do so if they're worth their salt...
but noooooooooooo not our brendan...he did for us last night...just like he did for us a week ago when not playing lucas...
he's a fecking idjit and way out of his league...
I've had enough....i couldn't give a flying FECK about irritating the sensibilities of certain people on this forum..this is our beloved club we're talking about...aka far more important....

RODGERS OUT!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on February 22, 2013, 07:27:31 PM
Sorry Ray, but I was answering your point directly about his value. Whether to sell or not is another issue.
Whether we can afford to replace before selling or have to sell with the proceeds part funding his replacement is something we don't know.
His value won't increase Tes so I'd be inclined to hold fire and keep him.

Quote
At the moment sorting out the defence, both what to do as far as defending goes in play and how that translates to transfer movement of personnel looks to be a more pressing problem.
Agreed. That has to be the number 1 priority this summer. I think and hope Pepe will stay. There's enough change going to happen with the defenders without further confusing things with a new keeper. Anyway, I think he (or perhaps Lucas) will become the new vice-captain. I think young Kelly might do quite well at CB maybe alongside Agger.

Quote
Downing could be a squad player, though an originally expensive one, or could be upgraded and shipped out, who knows, but I think there's more pressing areas. If nothing more, he can provide cover either side. I'm just so nonplused with him. Hugely disappointed in him. His last season at Villa was decent, not brilliant, but cheese to our chalk in comparison to what we've seen from him at any time since he arrived.

He's improved in recent weeks. Keep him.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on February 22, 2013, 07:50:53 PM
We've become the manure dominated press version of NICE...never ever get in the way of winning anything apart from the odd allowable cup.
Last night we got back into a position that we could have gone through. 3-1 up with half an hour to go...
What does Rodgers do?
Carry on with the substitution even though Suarez scored...any manager worth his salt would have sat back and said...we've scored 3 now...we're back in the game...we're controlling the game and dominating...run henderson etc into the ground....they'll do so if they're worth their salt...
but noooooooooooo not our brendan...he did for us last night...just like he did for us a week ago when not playing lucas...
he's a fecking idjit and way out of his league...
I've had enough....i couldn't give a flying FECK about irritating the sensibilities of certain people on this forum..this is our beloved club we're talking about...aka far more important....

RODGERS OUT!

I agree.








I've had enough of the dumb imbeciles who are stupid enough and foolish enough to not give the manager of Liverpool Football Club the chance to implement fully his plans for the team, which is a long term strategy that will have its inconsistencies in its embryotic stages but can be developed into something that will stand us in good stead for the long haul.

I totally agree you i couldn't give a flying FECK about irritating the sensibilities of certain irrational people on this forum..this is our beloved club we're talking about...aka far more important....
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on February 22, 2013, 07:55:46 PM

I've had enough of the dumb imbeciles who are stupid enough and foolish enough to not give the manager of Liverpool Football Club the chance to implement fully his plans for the team, which is a long term strategy that will have its inconsistencies in its embryotic stages but can be developed into something that will stand us in good stead for the long haul.


Ah yes...the 5 year prohect towards oblivion. We're well ahead of target already.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Edward224 on February 22, 2013, 07:57:22 PM
Yes because I said 5 years................ :-X
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on February 22, 2013, 07:59:55 PM
Yes because I said 5 years................ :-X

or 1 or 2 or 3...or even 6 months...we're still well on target to oblivion
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 22, 2013, 08:03:44 PM
I sure don't know about you fellas, but I take great stock from how nice we are.  We're decent through and through.  So nice, as to even be super-cede David Moores levels of niceness.

Sure, isn't it great to see little Swansea come to Anfield, will a full team, and knock us out of the League Cup, in October, before the long nights really set in.  What a romantic spectacle.  A small side, come and do the business at Anfield.  Even more romantic, since we  raided their club months earlier, taking their best player as well as their manager, to Anfield. 

And Oldham, now there's a team and a half.  Two divisions below us.  Sitting in the relegation area, unable to get a result for love nor money.  On the verge of sacking their manager.  But no sirree, we can't see those good people of Oldham go away empty-handed.  Let's have a whip-round and give them a hand-up.  Oldham was made for the FA Cup.  This could be their season. 

And Zenit.  Not one of the top sides in Europe.  But they sure-as-hell do try.  Heck, they had been on a long winter break since December 10th.  I was fearing they'd be ring rusty, after more than two months without a competitive game, and would be on the wrong end of a hammering from the Liverpool lads.  No one wants to see the opposition embarrassed.  But heck, in the final 20 minutes of our games, they actually got stronger, rather than weaker.  Wasnt that pretty.  I don;t know about you, but I take great heart when I see such pluckiness. 

And in the Premiership, hasn't it been a delightful season.  Other top sides might have been concerned, but hey, no need to be.  We have given all those top half sides great spirit and hope.  They can now go on and dream of top four finishes, and even tiddlers like Everton and Swansea, can dream of Europa League games next season.

Now you see, I reckon, some of our support, get nose-bleeds and have issues in handling success.  They prefer to be nice and they like to see other folks do well.  And if we have to give these other sides a hand-up, then why not.  Ain't it pretty to see how far little Swansea and Oldham have gone in the cups.  And Zenit too. I don't know about you folks, but I'll be in the Oldham, Swansea and Zenit corners, when they play their respective cup ties.

We don't need folks like Benitez, who would only upset the apple cart.  And whilst Hodgson and Dalglish were on the right track, and were keeping other folks semi-content, where they ultimately fell down, was in the gift-of-the-gab.  They just didn't have the spiel, or the way with words.  They didn't sell the dream, nor the hope, nor the belief.  Words failed them.  They were unable to talk a good game and that ultimately cost them there jobs.

"Brendan, he made the people happy," will be what goes on the Ulsterman's career tombstone. 
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 22, 2013, 08:03:51 PM
His value won't increase Tes so I'd be inclined to hold fire and keep him.
Agreed. That has to be the number 1 priority this summer. I think and hope Pepe will stay. There's enough change going to happen with the defenders without further confusing things with a new keeper. Anyway, I think he (or perhaps Lucas) will become the new vice-captain. I think young Kelly might do quite well at CB maybe alongside Agger.

He's improved in recent weeks. Keep him.

I agree Ray that changes need to be keep to the minimum possible at the back. Obviously Carra's retiring and it looks like Coates isn't rated by the manager.
I'd certainly go for the absolute best we can afford and let him fight it out with Skrtel and Agger. It would be an improvement as Carra's not been able to push Skrtel hard enough this season.
If Skrtel proves to be the odd one out of three then that's to our advantage.

Where Downing's concerned I think it's down to whether we can upgrade without selling him. I agree he's improved to a degree but from the level he came from to where he is now, he still has a long way to go to make a case for himself being a regular.
I thought he may have done better as a wide forward player than he did last season as a more orthadox winger, because at both Boro and Villa he always had the ability to tuck in at the far post or cut inside to score, but he seems happy to stay wide when the ball's on the opposite flank instead of getting himself into the box to add to the numbers.

With hindsight he'd probably found his level and comfort zone at Villa.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on February 22, 2013, 08:18:30 PM

"Brendan, he made the people happy," will be what goes on the Ulsterman's career tombstone.

He kept 3 people happy at least...
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: barticus on February 22, 2013, 08:23:40 PM
I sure don't know about you fellas, but I take great stock from how nice we are.  We're decent through and through.  So nice, as to even be super-cede David Moores levels of niceness.

Sure, isn't it great to see little Swansea come to Anfield, will a full team, and knock us out of the League Cup, in October, before the long nights really set in.  What a romantic spectacle.  A small side, come and do the business at Anfield.  Even more romantic, since we  raided their club months earlier, taking their best player as well as their manager, to Anfield. 

And Oldham, now there's a team and a half.  Two divisions below us.  Sitting in the relegation area, unable to get a result for love nor money.  On the verge of sacking their manager.  But no sirree, we can't see those good people of Oldham go away empty-handed.  Let's have a whip-round and give them a hand-up.  Oldham was made for the FA Cup.  This could be their season. 

And Zenit.  Not one of the top sides in Europe.  But they sure-as-hell do try.  Heck, they had been on a long winter break since December 10th.  I was fearing they'd be ring rusty, after more than two months without a competitive game, and would be on the wrong end of a hammering from the Liverpool lads.  No one wants to see the opposition embarrassed.  But heck, in the final 20 minutes of our games, they actually got stronger, rather than weaker.  Wasnt that pretty.  I don;t know about you, but I take great heart when I see such pluckiness. 

And in the Premiership, hasn't it been a delightful season.  Other top sides might have been concerned, but hey, no need to be.  We have given all those top half sides great spirit and hope.  They can now go on and dream of top four finishes, and even tiddlers like Everton and Swansea, can dream of Europa League games next season.

Now you see, I reckon, some of our support, get nose-bleeds and have issues in handling success.  They prefer to be nice and they like to see other folks do well.  And if we have to give these other sides a hand-up, then why not.  Ain't it pretty to see how far little Swansea and Oldham have gone in the cups.  And Zenit too. I don't know about you folks, but I'll be in the Oldham, Swansea and Zenit corners, when they play their respective cup ties.

We don't need folks like Benitez, who would only upset the apple cart.  And whilst Hodgson and Dalglish were on the right track, and were keeping other folks semi-content, where they ultimately fell down, was in the gift-of-the-gab.  They just didn't have the spiel, or the way with words.  They didn't sell the dream, nor the hope, nor the belief.  Words failed them.  They were unable to talk a good game and that ultimately cost them there jobs.


My thoughts exactly...we're singing from the same hymn sheet! Hmmm maybe that's not such a good analogy...
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 22, 2013, 10:42:55 PM
He kept 3 people happy at least...

you know, some would say that we lost the tie because we gave away three sloppy goals to Zenit.

But I like to focus on the positives.  Zenit now have the chance to continue with their dreams.

We too, if we work hard and believe in the project, can progress one-day and be up there with AC Zenit.

Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on February 22, 2013, 10:58:53 PM
you know, some would say that we lost the tie because we gave away three sloppy goals to Zenit.

But I like to focus on the positives.  Zenit now have the chance to continue with their dreams.

We too, if we work hard and believe in the project, can progress one-day and be up there with AC Zenit.

Apparently there's a footnote on the inside back cover of 'the document' that covers defending - it states, 'bah, who needs it'.

Yet again, just one goal less this time sees us into the next round. Teams concede goals, it's part of football, but we undermine our new found ability to score, and the more we score the more we undermine it.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on February 23, 2013, 02:32:29 AM
Apparently there's a footnote on the inside back cover of 'the document' that covers defending - it states, 'bah, who needs it'.

 :D

sounds like Kevin Keegan wrote some of it.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on March 07, 2013, 07:05:07 PM
Note Dirk is playing tonight. Come on Fenner!
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on March 08, 2013, 01:18:41 AM
Note Dirk is playing tonight. Come on Fenner!

It's awful knowing the competition's still going on and we've no longer got any interest in it. The same with the FA Cup. There's some 'name' teams still in the competition. We should still be in there mixing it with them.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on April 04, 2013, 10:27:13 PM
Go the Dirk!  ;D

http://www.101greatgoals.com/gvideos/dirk-kuyt-fenerbahce-v-lazio/
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on April 05, 2013, 01:53:01 AM
the Dirk Destroyer, what a man. 


a class act, both as a player and a human being.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on April 05, 2013, 02:17:01 AM
the Dirk Destroyer, what a man. 


a class act, both as a player and a human being.
90th minute for a 2-0 lead in the 1st leg of the quarter final,
typical Dirk, unsung hero!  ;D
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on April 06, 2013, 09:53:09 PM
Imagine what Brendan could have made of him. 'Sigh'. Another missed opportunity.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on April 06, 2013, 10:42:44 PM
if only those pesky kids owners hadn't sold Dirk despite Brent's best protestations.

But Brent moves on.  And apparently it was good to get Dirk's big wages off the books (I'm guessing 60 grand a week), so that we can continue to pay Captain Marvel 130 grand a week, on a new extended contract, til he's 38.

as Brent says, what a season, what a man, king of the universe, well dressed, eats, right, sleeps well, and keeps himself in such great shape, doesn't tackle when he doesn;t have to, doesn;t track back, will be going strong for at least another 5 years.   

I don't know about you pilgrims, but if Captain Marvel can be as good as he was this season, when we kicked sand in the faces of all and sundry, then it will be like signing Messi, in being able to persuade him to stay with us, under a new contract, and have him til he gets his pension.






Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on April 06, 2013, 11:11:53 PM
if only those pesky kids owners hadn't sold Dirk despite Brent's best protestations.

But Brent moves on.  And apparently it was good to get Dirk's big wages off the books (I'm guessing 60 grand a week), so that we can continue to pay Captain Marvel 130 grand a week, on a new extended contract, til he's 38.

as Brent says, what a season, what a man, king of the universe, well dressed, eats, right, sleeps well, and keeps himself in such great shape, doesn't tackle when he doesn;t have to, doesn;t track back, will be going strong for at least another 5 years.   

I don't know about you pilgrims, but if Captain Marvel can be as good as he was this season, when we kicked sand in the faces of all and sundry, then it will be like signing Messi, in being able to persuade him to stay with us, under a new contract, and have him til he gets his pension.

At least it should buy time to finally get around to thinking about his replacement - hopefully.
Carra's readied replacement has to be the best kept secret in football.
I read earlier today that Taggart is looking at replacements ready for when Ferdinand and Vidic are no more. Yet another leaf taken out of the book we seem to have wantonly discarded.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Ed on April 07, 2013, 01:18:44 AM
if only those pesky kids owners hadn't sold Dirk despite Brent's best protestations.

But Brent moves on.  And apparently it was good to get Dirk's big wages off the books (I'm guessing 60 grand a week), so that we can continue to pay Captain Marvel 130 grand a week, on a new extended contract, til he's 38.

as Brent says, what a season, what a man, king of the universe, well dressed, eats, right, sleeps well, and keeps himself in such great shape, doesn't tackle when he doesn;t have to, doesn;t track back, will be going strong for at least another 5 years.   

I don't know about you pilgrims, but if Captain Marvel can be as good as he was this season, when we kicked sand in the faces of all and sundry, then it will be like signing Messi, in being able to persuade him to stay with us, under a new contract, and have him til he gets his pension.
Apparently he gives 150% in training...

I'd settle for 100%, not sure where he gets the other 50% from,
wonder what he gives during the games?
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on April 07, 2013, 08:52:58 AM
Apparently he gives 150% in training...

I'd settle for 100%, not sure where he gets the other 50% from,
wonder what he gives during the games?


 :D


thus, he was obviously hiding last week, when he only gave 120 percent.


but seriously, Brent (and people like him in sport), need to take a long hard look at themselves - e.g. with this 120, 150 percent BS. 


Tiny brains in combo with microphones every day, and the head tends to always get bigger. 



Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on April 07, 2013, 08:59:24 AM
At least it should buy time to finally get around to thinking about his replacement - hopefully.
Carra's readied replacement has to be the best kept secret in football.

 ;D

I see Brent's linked with some defender in South America (the player is also linked to AC Milan).  All these foriegn links contradict Brent's thoughts from earlier in the season, about bringing in local talent.   

But hey, another day, another microphone, another off-the-cuff sermon.

He's keeping the big political barons onside - gerrard and carragher.......thinking this gives himself more political clout and leeway.  He thinks he's being smart.  But anyone with a brain, can see right through him.   But it is doing the club lots of harm.  Carra should have been gone three years ago.  And Gerrard was pretty dire for most of this season, especially the first half of the season.  It is madness giving him a new contract on big wages.  Utter madness, the notion of him being at the club for another 5 years. 
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: Tes on April 07, 2013, 03:43:27 PM
;D

I see Brent's linked with some defender in South America (the player is also linked to AC Milan).  All these foriegn links contradict Brent's thoughts from earlier in the season, about bringing in local talent.   

But hey, another day, another microphone, another off-the-cuff sermon.

He's keeping the big political barons onside - gerrard and carragher.......thinking this gives himself more political clout and leeway.  He thinks he's being smart.  But anyone with a brain, can see right through him.   But it is doing the club lots of harm.  Carra should have been gone three years ago.  And Gerrard was pretty dire for most of this season, especially the first half of the season.  It is madness giving him a new contract on big wages.  Utter madness, the notion of him being at the club for another 5 years.

Sometimes it does feel like some personalities are bigger than the club and has done for several years. Maybe another reason why we've become a stranger to the league championship trophy.

As for transfers, I'd settle for no ex Watford, Reading, Chelsea youth or Swansea players.
Title: Re: Europa League Campaign 2012/2013
Post by: the dude abides on April 07, 2013, 05:26:45 PM
Sometimes it does feel like some personalities are bigger than the club and has done for several years. Maybe another reason why we've become a stranger to the league championship trophy.

As for transfers, I'd settle for no ex Watford, Reading, Chelsea youth or Swansea players.

yes, there are plenty of good players to be had from Europe with top technical skill and who do not cost a fortune. That agent Carr, at Newcastle, would be a helluva signing for the club.  He seems to know far more than Liverpool scouts do.

yes,  re big personalities, I have always said that the club can only move on, after Gerrard has left the stage.

Offering him a big new contract, and appointing Carra to the coaching staff, is not gonna help the club.  Sami would have brought far more to Melwood.