Anfield Road - Liverpool FC Forum

Football and lesser sports => Liverpool FC, football, sport => Topic started by: Edward224 on February 28, 2013, 09:08:42 AM

Title: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on February 28, 2013, 09:08:42 AM
Seems he can't handle the pressure from the club's supporters.

As the saying goes if you can't handle the pressure get out of the kitchen.....

And all of you lot want him back LOL Don't you people understand that the fanbase is completely split on Rafa thus the pressure he would experience would be akin to the pressure as Chelsea manager.

2 or 3 bad results and he'd be under immense scrutiny - not from management but from our fanbase.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Martinmarx on February 28, 2013, 09:38:25 AM
The fact he took the job in the first place is in itself proof of poor judgment. He may, unvolunterily though, do us a final favor as this could have a detrimental effect on Chelsea for the rest of the season.

Or as James Lawton of the Independent puts it:

All the angst of Rafael Benitez came spilling out last night and if some of it was understandable enough as it reflected the pain generated by one of the worst ordeals ever endured by a leading football man, there was too an inevitable response.

It said, "Really, Rafa what did you expect?"

Did you anticipate a bed of flowers as you came racing out of exile and into the shoes of a manager much respected, and even adored by some sections of the Chelsea support? Did you think that Roberto Di Matteo's extraordinary contribution to the affairs of a club which had repeatedly broken the normal operating rules of a successful football organisation, which had treated its managers with not much more dignity than might have been accorded a series of errant office boys, would be buried in the welcome for a man so widely disliked on the terraces of Stamford Bridge?

It would have been an improbably huge ask in any circumstances and of course it was impossible to imagine any that could have been worse when Benitez was introduced to his new club against a background of hostility quite unprecedented even in the turbulence of today's high pressure football.

There was even the savage irony of Benitez's arrival coinciding with the death of one of the great figures of Chelsea, the tough and beloved manager Dave Sexton.

Last night Benitez produced echoes of the American president Richard Nixon when he believed his political career was over long before his Watergate denouement. "You wont have me to kick around any longer," he told his worst critics," and that was the substance of Benitez's outburst after another night when Chelsea supporters reminded him that he was still so far anything like acceptance.

Chelsea won their Cup-tie at Middlesbrough but there was always the sound of anti-Benitez sentiment.

It was plainly breaking point for the man who believed that his power to transform Chelsea would sooner rather than later win him a new and more tranquil phase of a career which, after success at Valencia and the extraordinary Champions League success with Liverpool in Istanbul, ran into serious trouble at Anfield and then the humiliation of a swift ejection at Internazionale in the wake of his bitter foe, and Chelsea hero, Jose Mourinho.

Benitez can now hardly conceal his bitterness towards Roman Abramovich and the Chelsea hierarchy who made it clear that his reign at Stamford Bridge would never be more than a brief holding operation.

Unfortunately, Benitez was unable to hold together a situation always threatening to break at the seams.

He says that the club's refusal to grant him any more than interim status was a massive mistake but then there is something of a pattern in Benitez's attempts at crisis management. He has a tendency to apportion blame some way from his own direct responsibilities. At Liverpool the problem was the club's errant American ownership, yet never satisfactorily explained that he was still unable to improve and re-animate the team with not inconsiderable spending power.

His failure to communicate with key players – notably the ramrod Xabi Alonso – was a factor which was never acknowledged from the manager's office and, of course, his relations with the Chelsea players has been wrapped in controversy over recent days.


His rant last night was pitched at both the fans and the ownership and at no point was there any concession that his promise of renovating £50m Fernando Torres, which may saw as the key reason for his summons to London, and a new level of team efficiency had fallen to the point where his performance record had slipped below the mark which provoked the sacking of Di Matteo.

Indeed, there was a powerful case to believe that the truly massive mistake was not in granting him temporary powers but allowing his style of management to take any root at all.

It has not, after all, ever been marked by the kind of professional compromise adopted by Di Matteo when he was parachuted into the challenge of repairing, in any kind of fashion, the vertiginous collapse of the project of Andre Villas-Boas.

Di Matteo did it with the astounding short term effect of winning both the Champions' League and the FA Cup. He also created a sense that he would conjure the best he could from players of great experience but uncertain futures. He had the nous to live in the moment and when that time came to an abrupt end, when Chelsea failed to defend their European title, he left the arena with a philosophical shrug.

Benitez doesn't do such gestures. He imposes his will and his theories and there is not much sense of accommodation with old pros who had in their time achieved a few things perhaps worthy of some respect. It will always, you have to believe, be the Benitez show, good or bad, win or lose, but last night it seemed that even he had grasped that he had been selected for the wrong stage.


http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/james-lawton-come-on-rafa-what-did-you-expect-it-was-never-going-to-be-a-bed-of-roses-8514019.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/james-lawton-come-on-rafa-what-did-you-expect-it-was-never-going-to-be-a-bed-of-roses-8514019.html)
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on February 28, 2013, 12:23:11 PM
Brilliant summary of events there from you and Lawton.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on February 28, 2013, 01:20:01 PM
Funny thing is Dude, Barticus and Ed are exactly like those Chelsea supporters, yet are too stupid to see it :D

Watch them go on this thread complaining about the treatment of Rafa by Chelsea supporters  ;D
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on February 28, 2013, 01:20:51 PM
Very crafty of Rafa actually.

For the first time he can actually see that they might not get 4th so he decides to blame the fans for it in plenty of time.

Nice one.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: barticus on February 28, 2013, 01:33:04 PM
Funny thing is Dude, Barticus and Ed are exactly like those Chelsea supporters, yet are too stupid to see it :D

Watch them go on this thread complaining about the treatment of Rafa by Chelsea supporters  ;D

Insults now...bravo Edward224...yeah like us 3 would really bring out banners during a game and act like a bunch of spoilt glory hunters...
It's called criticism...we're 8th and out of all the cups ffs...if not accepting that shiite is ok for you then be my guest, grab your tin foil helmet and put your fingers in your ears...sure we might be going down the pan but at least you're in your little dream world....
that vid of greeting swansea was quite frankly embarrasing....if Rodgers wants to p**s off back to his beloved Swansea then i'm sure there will be an option in the summer. That vid was fascinating because it was obvious he got on better with the opposition than he did with his own team ffs...Class. Sterling ignored him even...


Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Martinmarx on February 28, 2013, 02:25:14 PM
Insults now...bravo Edward224...yeah like us 3 would really bring out banners during a game and act like a bunch of spoilt glory hunters...
It's called criticism...we're 8th and out of all the cups ffs.

If it was only criticism it would be fine. Problem is it isn't. Calling the manager everything there's a name for under the sun instead of constructively criticise he's fortunes and failures, constantly find a negative angle on anything he says or does, blaming his treatment of an underperforming CB for the failure to beat Zenit when in fact one goal from 5 open chances for Suarez in the first tie would've sufficed. I can go on. You can lie to yourself bart mate and call it what you want but you'll never get me to accept that what you're doing is constructive criticism - fornicating far from it mate.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Martinmarx on February 28, 2013, 02:30:47 PM
Oh, and it's not where we are, it's where we'll finish that counts.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on February 28, 2013, 02:34:03 PM
Funny thing is Dude, Barticus and Ed are exactly like those Chelsea supporters, yet are too stupid to see it :D

Watch them go on this thread complaining about the treatment of Rafa by Chelsea supporters  ;D
I think Brendan Rodgers is a fantastic, brilliant manager
and an amazing human being. I hope he gets a 10 year
contract.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on February 28, 2013, 03:20:52 PM
with Reading.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on February 28, 2013, 11:01:48 PM
On a side issue, I think that the title of
this post is highly disrespectful to a former
manager of ours who competed and won
trophies for the club.

Shame on you 224.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Martinmarx on March 01, 2013, 12:05:49 AM
On a side issue, I think that the title of
this post is highly disrespectful to a former
manager of ours who competed and won
trophies for the club.

Shame on you 224.

Maybe he found inspiration in the language used on this forum to "discuss/criticize" and give "opinions" on the current manager of the club we all allegedly love? I don't know. Just a wild guess.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on March 01, 2013, 12:54:00 AM
Ed, isn;t it ironic that the usual duo slag and mock our best manager in decades.......and prefer to worship a 39 year old who has won feck all, during his ten minute career.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on March 01, 2013, 01:03:49 AM
Maybe he found inspiration in the language used on this forum to "discuss/criticize" and give "opinions" on the current manager of the club we all allegedly love? I don't know. Just a wild guess.
I don't actually get it, calling a former manager of the
club who won the first European cup in 20 years a
bottler and sarcastically referring to him as sir when he's
battling with Chelski fans. Unbelievable imo.

By 224's logic there appears to be an unspecified time frame
where it's sacrilege to say a word against the manager. Once
this passes though it's open season on Shankly, Paisley...

Seriously, I doubt he's a Liverpool supporter. There's no depth
in his support. A tiresome muppet imo.

Ed, isn;t it ironic that the usual duo slag and mock our best manager in decades.......and prefer to worship a 39 year old who has won feck all, during his ten minute career.
Agree, this post was bang out of order on an LFC forum!

I don't think they're reds!
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on March 01, 2013, 01:13:11 AM
yes, bizarre mockery and ridicule of a Liverpool great, by the usual muppets.

who next, as you say.....perhaps Bob Paisley is on their radar.


Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on March 01, 2013, 01:29:26 AM
yes, bizarre mockery and ridicule of a Liverpool great, by the usual muppets.

who next, as you say.....perhaps Bob Paisley is on their radar.
These men who stood in the great football stadia of the world and
brought home results, trophies and glory for LFC.

Men who made the name of Liverpool strike fear into opponents
across the continent e.g. other great clubs, the Milans, Madrid,
Barcelona and Juve.

& this twerp has the nerve to ridicule such men.

But yet he demands credibility and respect for someone who's achieved
nothing in the game, conducted a humiliating European campaign and
delivered nothing in Europe for next season? (I haven't even mentioned
a handball goal that took us to Oldham where we were out-fought, out-thought).

With his big talk, when it was plain for anyone to see that he was an utter noob
in Europe, a f**king tourist not a manager!
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on March 01, 2013, 01:54:40 AM
exactly, a TOURIST when it comes to European travel (not that there ever will be much).

our muppets have no sense of perspective at all.

they are like those chelsea muppets - they do not recognise greatness when they see it......be it regarding football, players or managers.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Martinmarx on March 01, 2013, 08:14:09 AM
Evidence, and the wider opinion outsides the sectarian Rafaites, seem to think that while the man no doubt has won a few titles, he's also a bottler. Trouble at Mestalla, at Anfield, at San Siro and now Stamford Bridge. To most that track record speak for itself, to others it's just the expression of an intolerant and generally evil world hellbent on misunderstand one of footy's greatest managers.

He managed this club for 6 years and arguably some 300 games. 13 of those, i.e. 4 %, was the CL of -05. U put him on the same level as Sir Bob on the back of that despite no evidence whatsoever he managed to improve us in the league. As good as Rafa was in Europe he never did understand the Premier League and that's why you can't be serious when u compare him to the truly great managers of this club. Big humour, big humour indeed.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: barticus on March 01, 2013, 01:15:35 PM
... despite no evidence whatsoever he managed to improve us in the league. As good as Rafa was in Europe he never did understand the Premier League...

I seem to remember us coming second at some stage?...oh and always being top 4...if that isn't challenging i don't know what is...

and as for trouble at 'Anfield' it was mainly because he saw that Hicks and Gillette were 2 robbers who were going to destroy the club! Isn't that his job? To give a feck for the club he's working for and took to his heart?? Until Broughton came in the club was done for...No other of the ex-stars piped up, rafa put his neck out..
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on March 01, 2013, 03:07:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4fX_bGw-pQ&feature=player_embedded

Classic Rodgers, doesn't have anything to say.
Typical careerist, politician (who knows, he might
be in line for the Chelsea job himself some day,
best to play it safe!).
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Martinmarx on March 01, 2013, 04:27:32 PM
I seem to remember us coming second at some stage?...oh and always being top 4...if that isn't challenging i don't know what is...

and as for trouble at 'Anfield' it was mainly because he saw that Hicks and Gillette were 2 robbers who were going to destroy the club! Isn't that his job? To give a feck for the club he's working for and took to his heart?? Until Broughton came in the club was done for...No other of the ex-stars piped up, rafa put his neck out..

Wrong on both accounts. 66 % isn't always. This myth G & H was the root of all evil since the birth of sweet baby Jesus is just tiresome. He asked them to get rid of Parry - he got it. He asked to have total control over transfer business (like almost no other manager in Europe at that time) - he got it. Yet it wasn't enough. It's a disgrace really the way he put his own ego before the club. But even worse is some so called fans seems to have accepted that. I'm just glad he's gone so that the work towards a new and successful era can begin.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Martinmarx on March 01, 2013, 05:07:22 PM
Nothing signifies and summarize Rafa's understanding of the PL better than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t00D23R63ig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t00D23R63ig)

And that's after almost 4 full seasons of managing this club. I have NEVER experience such a reaction from our captain during his 14 seasons for this club - NEVER
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 01, 2013, 11:57:05 PM
And all of you lot want him back LOL Don't you people understand that the fanbase is completely split on Rafa thus the pressure he would experience would be akin to the pressure as Chelsea manager.



Yet another sweeping generalisation, Edward. Who exactly do you think wants him back? Who makes up the 'you lot'?
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 01, 2013, 11:58:36 PM
I think Brendan Rodgers is a fantastic, brilliant manager
and an amazing human being. I hope he gets a 10 year
sentence.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 02, 2013, 12:01:30 AM
Good to see nothing changes, how reassuring.

So who have we got in the next round of the CL, I forget so easily nowadays.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on March 02, 2013, 12:16:01 AM
thing is - Martin and Edward have what they wanted.  They wanted Rafa out and they worship Rodgers.

And yet, despite getting exactly what they wanted, they still moan, day in day out. 

They mock and ridicule the one decent manager we've had these past 15 years.  And they laud their junior messiah....the bloke who has won exactly nada, and most likely will end his career in top flight football, winning exactly, nada.

but hey, you got what you wanted.

so why the long faces, gents?


Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on March 02, 2013, 02:07:36 AM
I hope he gets a 10 year sentence.
;D


Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Martinmarx on March 02, 2013, 09:37:07 AM
thing is - Martin and Edward have what they wanted.  They wanted Rafa out and they worship Rodgers.

And yet, despite getting exactly what they wanted, they still moan, day in day out. 

They mock and ridicule the one decent manager we've had these past 15 years.  And they laud their junior messiah....the bloke who has won exactly nada, and most likely will end his career in top flight football, winning exactly, nada.

but hey, you got what you wanted.

so why the long faces, gents?

What you don't get is that I don't, and I think the same goes for Edward, "adore" or "worship" Brendan. We just support him during his first seasons as manager of this great club very much like we supported Rafa in his first seasons before he lost the plot (beginning with the sacking of Ayesteran and the rapid decline in stability and results). As we believe any LFC fan should. But each tho his/her own I guess. Unlike you we haven't invested personally in the manager. It is the manager, the institution as such we support and believe in. I can't change the fact you don't have the same faith and that's totally up to you mate, but the constant belittling, ridiculing and personal abuse directed at the manager is just disgraceful.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on March 02, 2013, 10:58:22 AM
What you don't get is that I don't, and I think the same goes for Edward, "adore" or "worship" Brendan. We just support him during his first seasons as manager of this great club very much like we supported Rafa in his first seasons before he lost the plot (beginning with the sacking of Ayesteran and the rapid decline in stability and results). As we believe any LFC fan should. But each tho his/her own I guess. Unlike you we haven't invested personally in the manager. It is the manager, the institution as such we support and believe in. I can't change the fact you don't have the same faith and that's totally up to you mate, but the constant belittling, ridiculing and personal abuse directed at the manager is just disgraceful.

That is so so true. I couldn't have put it better myself.

I don't worship Rodgers but I give him my support because I believe as a Liverpool supporter we should always give our managers a chance before condemnation.

The same way I gave Kenny a chance. The same way I gave Rafa a chance. The same way I gave Houllier a chance. The same way I have Evans a chance and the same way I gave Souness a chance.

Only exception to that was Hodgson who didn't care for the Liverpool supporters and was more interested in kissing fergie's backside.

That to me is what a Liverpool supporter does. That is the tradition that I grew up in as a Liverpool supporter in the late 80's early 90's that I learned from others. If players and managers give their all for us - we in turn give them the opportunity to improve us.

If that is what you call worshipping false idols then that is your prerogative.

However it seems to me that there is only one person on this forum worshipping a false idol. It isn't Ray, it isn't Martin and it sure as hell isn't me.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 02, 2013, 05:46:37 PM
So what if you don't agree with things he does? Or he doesn't alter things that have been apparent all season. Or he buys players he's worked with, in order to have familiar faces at the cost of the required quality and value?

What, we just ignore it? We simply focus only on what we deem to be right but just turn a blind eye to those things we don't?

Seems like it, as when anything is raised it's being 'negative' and not 'supporting the manager'. 

You both claim to 'support the manager', the club etc but you wouldn't think so reading what is written during matches, or at least using your definitions. How about understanding that what you see others do too, but that some can't then conveniently forget it once the game's finished.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on March 02, 2013, 06:27:28 PM
I don't agree with some of the things Rodgers has done this season. It's not as if I haven't criticised his decisions, because I have - as you point out the match day threads some of the examples are there.

My point is that we can all criticise some of Rodgers decisions this season, however some on here go beyond that and seek to criticise anything and make no attempt to look at the positives - of which there are many.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Martinmarx on March 02, 2013, 11:34:11 PM
I don't agree with some of the things Rodgers has done this season. It's not as if I haven't criticised his decisions, because I have - as you point out the match day threads some of the examples are there.

My point is that we can all criticise some of Rodgers decisions this season, however some on here go beyond that and seek to criticise anything and make no attempt to look at the positives - of which there are many.

Indeed. Spot on Edward.

Also, so what he bought Allen (who had Another fine game tonite)? What's the big deal? He also brought us Sturridge and Coutinho who, although not proven, have had better starts to their LFC careers than any signing, for instance, Rafa made. Brendan will get this right and Dude's pathetic claims he may face the sack if we don't get this or that result is just laughable. Thankfully most people can see the actual progress we're making (now 3rd best scoring side in the league). Our defence is shaky but did you really expect, indeed demand, he'd fix that too inside 2 thirds of a season???????

We're sooo going in the right direction under Brendan. Too bad you ain't willing to see it.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on March 03, 2013, 12:42:55 AM
That to me is what a Liverpool supporter does. That is the tradition that I grew up in as a Liverpool supporter in the late 80's early 90's that I learned from others. If players and managers give their all for us - we in turn give them the opportunity to improve us.

and being the super-fan that you are, you start a thread entitled - Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 03, 2013, 12:45:05 AM
Indeed. Spot on Edward.

Also, so what he bought Allen (who had Another fine game tonite)? What's the big deal? He also brought us Sturridge and Coutinho who, although not proven, have had better starts to their LFC careers than any signing, for instance, Rafa made. Brendan will get this right and Dude's pathetic claims he may face the sack if we don't get this or that result is just laughable. Thankfully most people can see the actual progress we're making (now 3rd best scoring side in the league). Our defence is shaky but did you really expect, indeed demand, he'd fix that too inside 2 thirds of a season???????

We're sooo going in the right direction under Brendan. Too bad you ain't willing to see it.

Jesus bloody Wept, Martin. Even when I make the point about how good the signings of Coutinho (and that was made before two assists today) and Sturridge, it's still not enough, is it and you have to bring Chelsea's manager into it again. For crying out loud, why? Benitez has gone, for God's sake, get over that fact.

I was praising the goddamn mutha fucka for signing them. You're so wrapped up in this 'them and us' bollocks over Rodgers, you miss anything anybody but yourself and Edward post that's positive about the manager.

And as for the defence. READ THIS 5 TIMES THEN YOU MAY JUST UNDERSTAND:

YOU may not care about us conceding like we have (those two goals away at Everton and again at Arsenal, where two points were dropped both times could well be a difference maker), but not everyone glosses over things with the same ease as you. Understand? We're all different. We see things differently.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE BLOODY MANAGER. IT'S NOT ABOUT RODGERS, PERSONALLY. Ok?
Whoever was manager it would be the same problem. It was for Dalglish in the second half of last season. He didn't / couldn't change things that needed changing, and that was a problem too.

It's a shame you weren't here when Benitez was. You'd have seen the same thing as you do now. People seeing problems and mentioning them. Discussing them. Getting frustrated. It happens.

It's not about any individual. Who cares about any individual. It's about the club. The team. The best chance of winning football matches. The individuals don't or shouldn't matter. This isn't Brendan Rodgers FC. Like it wasn't Kenny Dalglish FC, or Rafa Benitez FC.

And as for demanding anything?

Well actually yes. Yes I did expect we would only concede 10 league goals in the entire campaign considering how Swansea were known for never conceding a single goal last season, so when we took their manager from them I expected he would make sure after pre-season we didn't concede a single goal until at least after Christmas. So I have every right to be disappointed that teams still walk through us. And if you watched closely, preferly without Rodgers tinted shades on, you would see it's not about the defence, well at least not just the defence. It's the entire defensive side of our game, both with and without the ball. Blitzing the canon fodder is no good if we can't keep out decent teams and when the improvement in our attacking game, the increased ability to score that we have from last season, is undermined by our inability to defend as a team and hold onto leads (especially two goal ones) that we create for ourselves.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on March 03, 2013, 12:54:14 AM
Indeed. Spot on Edward.

Also, so what he bought Allen (who had Another fine game tonite)? What's the big deal? He also brought us Sturridge and Coutinho who, although not proven, have had better starts to their LFC careers than any signing, for instance, Rafa made. Brendan will get this right and Dude's pathetic claims he may face the sack if we don't get this or that result is just laughable.

why the long face, Martin.

we are after smacking the ars.ses of mighty Wigan.  We had a great  day at the office.

OK, we may be out of all three cups early, the league title is a distant memory, and top 4 is also long since gone.  I say well played Zenit, Swansea and Oldham.  Hip hip hurrah.  Hip hip hurrah.  Hip hip hurrah.  Can we haul in Everton and stay ahead of WBA and Swansea.  Let's hope so.

I think that you and Edward are to be applauded.  You've got spunk (and I admire that in a person).    You quite clearly don't know very much about football, but you are still passionate enough to keep coming back, to offer your insights.   I like plucky folks, who never know when to throw in the towel.

It's like the goldfish.  Yesterday is a distant memory.  Tomorrow is a new day, and all new memory banks have been installed.

It's great that you both feel able to contribute. 

Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on March 03, 2013, 01:03:54 AM
if you watched closely, preferly without Rodgers tinted shades on, you would see it's not about the defence, well at least not just the defence. It's the entire defensive side of our game, both with and without the ball. Blitzing the canon fodder is no good if we can't keep out decent teams and when the improvement in our attacking game, the increased ability to score that we have from last season, is undermined by our inability to defend as a team and hold onto leads (especially two goal ones) that we create for ourselves.

yes, the untrained eye never gets the big picture.  The big picture is that football is all about balance.

and that is why there are very few top top managers......because building finely balanced teams is not easy.

the only bloke who pulls if off, time after time, is alex ferguson.

Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 03, 2013, 01:05:08 AM
I don't agree with some of the things Rodgers has done this season. It's not as if I haven't criticised his decisions, because I have - as you point out the match day threads some of the examples are there.

My point is that we can all criticise some of Rodgers decisions this season, however some on here go beyond that and seek to criticise anything and make no attempt to look at the positives - of which there are many.

Indeed you have Edward, and rightly so as that is what you've seen and what you've interpreted. And thanks for saying so. We've all written very similar things during matches, and hey ho, there's not this bickering during matches. It just seems that once the football actually stops the revisionism starts.
Some things that are written are instantly forgotten or brushed aside whilst others, no different from those conveniently forgotten, are used to question certain peoples' loyalty and support of the club, sorry manager.

I understand your last paragraph, but what some aren't understanding is what one person sees as positive or not something they would see worthy of their criticism, others have more of a problem with. Why can't it be understood and accepted that we don't all see things the same way.
For example, Martin seems quite happy with the defensive situation, and that's good for him. That's the position he's taken. I take a different one. Good for me.

Neither of us are right or wrong in the positions we take or the way we interpret things.

Dude more than Ed, Barticus or I (except sometimes where Martin's concerned) are forever taking sh!t because their views are somewhat different to your's and Martin's.
No-one though gives you two the same harranguing or questions your loyalty or support in the same way you two, Martin more than you, granted, like to seem to do. Comprendi?
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on March 03, 2013, 10:45:07 AM
Where has Martin said he is happy with the defensive situation as I haven't read that.

What many people not only here but across our fan base do not understand is that we cannot solve all our problems this season.

Whether we like it or not it was always going to be a gradual process - no matter who was manager. The first thing to do was to create a way of playing a style of play that we will go on to play and to create an identity throughout the club again. I believe this season has seen an improvement on this area.

Our main objective certainly from last season was to be more proficient in front of goal and be more clinical and create more. As we have seen this is an improvement.

However once we were defensively solid in the early parts of 2011 (certainly not in late 2011 and early 2012) now it isn't.

I put this down to a number of things:-

1) Brendan's new style of play and the time of adaption the defenders needed to get used to the style which caused a lot of individual mistakes.

2) Pepe Reina's form. For the past 3 seasons under 4 different managers his form has gone downhill. Once a GK loses form the defence has less confidence in him thus creating more errors.

3) A lack of leadership in the backline. Whilst The Agger-Skrtel partnership was a rock for us at times, as we have seen time and again neither are leaders or communicators - vital for a strong back line. Carra was seen has over the hill and after the Oldham debacle he came back in and it is no coincidence the defence looks more comfortable with strong leadership in it. However with Carra's lack of pace and impending retirement, this is a short term solution only.

Dude is only taking sh!t because since June 1st when Rodgers got the job he has never given him a chance. So sorry I will continue to give him sh!t and make no apologies for it.

I understand your frustrations with the team Tes because I have them too. But I realise that this season is about the implentation of a strategy and a philosophy and style of play that Brendan wants to imprint into the team. Therefore there was always going to be major inconsistencies.

Which is why I've long said that I see progress as being points wise closer to 4th than last season and at this time and with our run in, I believe it will be less than 17 points.


So why did I create this thread in a mocking tone of our former manager? because as I said in my opening post the furore of Liverpool supporters over the treatment of Rafa by Chelsea supporters is super hypocritical over some of the treatment the extreme minority of LFC fans give to Rodgers, so I thought I'd create the thread to remind this to one or two certain individuals.

I don't need to tell Dude or Barticus or you of my admiration and respect for Rafa as you won't believe me, but I can never not admire or respect the guy for giving us No.5 and making Liverpool a name to be feared again. Alas the foundations were built on quicksand rather than bricks and mortar - which is only partially Rafa's fault - but he has to take responsibility for that as well.

Tes you aren't taking sh!t from me because your views are different. In the last couple of months you've taken the sh!t because you've gone down the road that Dude has gone on which is to completely ignore the positive things Brendan has done and be even more cynical in your views.

You've never taken sh!t from me in regards to your opinions on players or matches. True a few debatable conversations in those threads! but nothing out of the ordinary!

So you say in game threads we see things the same and you are absolutely correct as we both give honest appraisals of performances of players in those games. I may be more lenient on one or two and you may be lenient on one or two of the players in certain games but more or less we say it as we see it in the game threads - so I have no issue with that and any thing we disagree on those.

But my point stands to what I have said above. You are drinking in what Dude is telling you. In my opinion and in the last couple of months I have noticed a more cynical tone in your posts and that was there prior to that.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 03, 2013, 03:01:42 PM
Edward, don't tell us what we understand or don't understand, if it's all the same.

Martin sees no problem, in fact if it's mentioned then then there's the usual about 'not understanding' or 'expecting too much' etc, etc.

Just how much do you know of the defensive side of Rodger's thinking and how that worked in reality whilst at Swansea. Read up on it. Read the forums. See what their fans think.

There is a pattern emerging. In order to be successful you have to build on a sound defensive base.

Look how many leads we've lost because of that not being the case.

Even yesterday, despite how poor Wigan were, when they chose to attack they caused problems. They were able to breach us far too easily, like too many teams have done.
After watching it live and then just the highlights this morning on MOTD it was worrying just how many chances they made through our poor defensive setup.

The issues haven't changed one tiny iota throughout the entire season. I'm not expecting us to suddenly turn into George Graham's back five or our defence from season 1978/79, but I do expect to see some sort of improvement.

As I say, there's a pattern emerging here, or was every Swansea fan anti-Rodgers also?

Yes, that's got to be it. So much better than the uncomfortable reality.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 03, 2013, 03:21:08 PM

Tes you aren't taking sh!t from me because your views are different. In the last couple of months you've taken the sh!t because you've gone down the road that Dude has gone on which is to completely ignore the positive things Brendan has done and be even more cynical in your views.


That's it in a nutshell for you two. There's just two ways of seeing things. Your's and Martin's or the wrong way.

Everytime Dude or I do post anything postive (look at yesterday's match post - praise for his January signings. It's actually there) you and Martin completely overlook it or miss it, and continue on with this generalisation that we are totally negative and everything we say is anti Rodgers.

Dude posted something positive about yesterday's game. I quoted in big letters just so it won't be missed. Do I read anything mentioning that positivity? Of course not. It's conveniently ignored until the next post that is less positive is made then you're both straight in there.

We don't pick you two up for being 'overly positive', for making more out of any improvement or progress than it warrants. No. We accept that's your individual opinion on specific points.

You two feel quite comfortable posting negative sh!t during the game, but somehow that's fine. Where's the difference to when anybody else highlights something.

I don't mind being picked up if you think I'm factually wrong, or you don't agree with my interpretion on something, but this generalisation that 'we don't realise', 'we don't understand' or the failure to note things that aren't negative is goddamn irritating.

So, instead of just general slaggings how about explaining where somebody's assessment of something falls down. Highlight why you see it differently and how you see it differently - you know, what goes to make up that opinion.

Anyhow, each to their own.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on March 03, 2013, 04:12:18 PM
That's it in a nutshell for you two. There's just two ways of seeing things. Your's and Martin's or the wrong way.

Everytime Dude or I do post anything postive (look at yesterday's match post - praise for his January signings. It's actually there) you and Martin completely overlook it or miss it, and continue on with this generalisation that we are totally negative and everything we say is anti Rodgers.

Dude posted something positive about yesterday's game. I quoted in big letters just so it won't be missed. Do I read anything mentioning that positivity? Of course not. It's conveniently ignored until the next post that is less positive is made then you're both straight in there.

you're wasting your time, Tes.

the pair of them (joined at the hip, which is very suspicious, in itself), are here with an agenda.  Last year, they started a campaign to isolate and silence me.  But people like yourself and barticus spotted what they were up to, and rode to my defence. 

they still do not get it.  THEY are isolated in here.  But they keep this nonsense going.  It's like the infamous Iraqi Information Minster. 

they are over the top in their worship of Rodgers.  And over the top in their mockery and dismissal of Benitez.

they offer no insights as to how they come to their conclusions......and no detailed discussion as to Rodgers so-called philosophy.  Despite asking countless times, nobody is still any the wiser as to what this means, in reality.

I like to hear different viewpoints.  It all helps me look at issues from different angles.  But, when it comes to Martin and Edward, I learn zilch from their posts.  There is nothing in there of any worth. 

I really am starting to wish that they would go and find another forum.  Or, it would be cool, if this forum had an IGNORE button.  I used to have such a button on a similar forum as this one (this forum script is called, SMF).


Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on March 03, 2013, 04:16:29 PM
I don't agree with some of the things Rodgers has done this season. It's not as if I haven't criticised his decisions, because I have - as you point out the match day threads some of the examples are there.

My point is that we can all criticise some of Rodgers decisions this season, however some on here go beyond that and seek to criticise anything and make no attempt to look at the positives - of which there are many.
Don't think the travelling fans at Wigan yesterday share
your sentiments regarding Rafa:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxx1hv_travelling-kop-sings-luis-suarez-song-luis-garcia-and-rafa-song-ynwa-and-chants-dalglish-vs-wigan_creation#.UTN2YX3VPh8
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on March 03, 2013, 04:20:57 PM
You'll be please to know Dude that I have actually created a forum for general football supporters to come into.

But I won't break the rules and post a link to it as that is wrong.

You'd love the ignore feature and so would I.

You think too highly of yourself and your opinions if you think I or Martin were or are orchestrating a campaign to isolate and silence you. Quite frankly I have too much to do in my life to do that.


We are not isolated here.

As far as I can see for the past few months the regular posters have been you, Tes, Barticus, Ed, Martin, Ray and myself. I see that as 4 against 3. So really isolation..............right.

I don't worship Rodgers at all. I am just like 99.9% of Liverpool supporters who actually give him a chance......but hey ho call it what you like.

I gave my written response to what is Rodgers ideals in the thread regarding that on this forum if you care to look.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on March 03, 2013, 04:23:25 PM
Don't think the travelling fans at Wigan yesterday share
your sentiments regarding Rafa:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xxx1hv_travelling-kop-sings-luis-suarez-song-luis-garcia-and-rafa-song-ynwa-and-chants-dalglish-vs-wigan_creation#.UTN2YX3VPh8

Vocal minority like at all away games. What about the majority at Anfield......
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 03, 2013, 05:40:57 PM
I like to hear different viewpoints.  It all helps me look at issues from different angles. 

Totally agree, Dude. It's good to read well defined differing views as it gives you something to think about, and maybe even something you haven't considered.

It just spoils things when people expect their views to be acknowledged and taken seriously but can't accept views different from their own, however different.

Despite explaining countless times that Rafa never got an easy ride on here during his time or that it's not exactly the case he'd be welcomed back unconditionally, his name still keeps getting thrown into things in order to try and prove some point, which as with yesterday's one about Rodger's January signings, wasn't even up for contention, but things like that get missed or conveniently ignored (never sure which).

It all makes me feel like going to town on Rodgers, something I've never done, just for the sheer Hell of it. May as well be hung for a lamb as a sheep.

I like both Martin and Edward and wouldn't want to lose them but the after match revisionism, the convenient ignoring of certain types of posts, the glossing over of things that are anything but super shiny brilliant 'positive' and the failure to see that their in match criticism is no different than anybody else's, but then wanting to play the superfan card with feigned indignation at things being written and sentiments expressed that they themselves have also expressed. Why should the manager be immune from criticism when the players aren't. Different standards keep being applied to the same events or types of posts.

Nothing's more important than the club's fortunes, certainly not being 'right on the internet'.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 03, 2013, 05:51:56 PM
You'll be please to know Dude that I have actually created a forum for general football supporters to come into.

But I won't break the rules and post a link to it as that is wrong.

You'd love the ignore feature and so would I.

You think too highly of yourself and your opinions if you think I or Martin were or are orchestrating a campaign to isolate and silence you. Quite frankly I have too much to do in my life to do that.


We are not isolated here.

As far as I can see for the past few months the regular posters have been you, Tes, Barticus, Ed, Martin, Ray and myself. I see that as 4 against 3. So really isolation..............right.

I don't worship Rodgers at all. I am just like 99.9% of Liverpool supporters who actually give him a chance......but hey ho call it what you like.

I gave my written response to what is Rodgers ideals in the thread regarding that on this forum if you care to look.

Dude, Ed, Barticus and I all have differing variations on our opinions, but you choose not to see the diffrences. We're just all the same. If things were as good as you state why is there always a census during the matches? Why would you and Martin make the same observations as Ed, Dude, Bart and I, or why would we four make the same observations as you two? It's only afterwards, inbetween games that suddenly the tack changes.
Highlighting problems, areas that need improvement, and anything else that doesn't scream of pyschophantic reverance is not negative, neither is it not supporting or hoping the manager fails. Turning a blind eye does the chances of improvement and future success no favours.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on March 03, 2013, 06:04:43 PM
Vocal minority like at all away games.
Oh my mistake, in fact they're probably not real fans like you,
the type of fan who shares the views of the vocal minority
of Chelsea away fans.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 03, 2013, 06:06:40 PM
But my point stands to what I have said above. You are drinking in what Dude is telling you. In my opinion and in the last couple of months I have noticed a more cynical tone in your posts and that was there prior to that.

Way to go, Edward. I don't need Dude telling me anything, thanks all the same. As for cynical, if you want cynical I can do cynical, but I certainly haven't been in the least bit.
What I'm feeling is frustration at seeing zero evidence of certain things that need to change. Maybe you think it's fine to keep shooting ourselves in the foot defensively. I don't, never have and never will, irrespective of who's in the dugout.

Just because we would have taken a point before the games at Everton, Arsenal and City doesn't mean we should be satisfied with one, if during the game we put ourselves in the position for all 3, especially when we throw our advantage away cheaply.

Against Zenith we did superbly to score three at home, but again, we'd put ourselves in an impossible position. There may be individual mistakes but if you look at the bigger pitch, the overall situation rather than looking at it in a narrow, microscopic way, our defensive setup and positioning made those individual errors more damaging.

Individual errors happen throughout the game, but certain systems reduce the chance of the problem being exasperated.
Read Sacchi and Rinus Michels thoughts on how to provide contingency against individual mistakes.
 
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on March 03, 2013, 08:39:09 PM
Dude, Ed, Barticus and I all have differing variations on our opinions, but you choose not to see the differences.

exactly.

we may agree on a lot of things.  But there are some subtle differences.  Tes wanted rid of Parry (I did not).  I want Rafa back (Tes does not).  There are other differences too.  But Martin and Edward refuse to see any differences.

It is pretty immature.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on March 03, 2013, 08:42:00 PM
but because the rest of us are adults and able to debate things, thus there is no major problems. 

Indeed, I enjoy reading different perspectives.  It helps broaden my thinking.  And over time, we often all come to a shared conclusion.  Some times my mind gets changed, to some extent.  And I imagine the opposite is sometimes true as well.

but none of us (bart, ed, tes or me) through the superfan argument at each other.....nor accuse each other of being negative, etc.


Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on March 03, 2013, 08:50:19 PM
You'll be please to know Dude that I have actually created a forum for general football supporters to come into.

But I won't break the rules and post a link to it as that is wrong.

You'd love the ignore feature and so would I.

You think too highly of yourself and your opinions if you think I or Martin were or are orchestrating a campaign to isolate and silence you. Quite frankly I have too much to do in my life to do that.


We are not isolated here.

As far as I can see for the past few months the regular posters have been you, Tes, Barticus, Ed, Martin, Ray and myself. I see that as 4 against 3. So really isolation..............right.

I don't worship Rodgers at all. I am just like 99.9% of Liverpool supporters who actually give him a chance......but hey ho call it what you like.

I gave my written response to what is Rodgers ideals in the thread regarding that on this forum if you care to look.

edward, my feeling is that you and i, despite our opinions, could enjoy a beer.  I think you have got a lot more reasonable these past few months.....much more mature in forum debate.

if you and martin would just stop relying on each other, as a crutch, and instead more fully engage with the rest of us.....would help things.  It shouldn't be as if the pair of you are like Butch and Sundance, riding into town, looking for the bad guys.

I know you think rodgers needs more time and should be given a chance.  But despite all the resources he has (compare our wages and transfer budget with everton, swansea and wba), we are out of all cups by February (going out to weak opposition).  And 4th place is gone too.  This could be our worst ever premiership season (i.e. our worst season in over 20 years).

Will Rodgers survive come May.  I suspect he will....because our owners will believe his BS and blarney....and our owners do not have the first idea about the club and where it's standing should be, in the game.

An IGNORE button would be good.  But even better, if we both could discuss the issues - without superfan-dom and negativity, being used as weapons.





Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on March 03, 2013, 09:04:03 PM
Will Rodgers survive come May.  I suspect he will...
No doubt in my mind he'll be here next season.

Still, there should be enough evidence from his first season
to judge his pedigree and set expectations accordingly.

Anyway, Spurs is a good test.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 03, 2013, 10:36:54 PM
No doubt in my mind he'll be here next season.

Still, there should be enough evidence from his first season
to judge his pedigree and set expectations accordingly.

Anyway, Spurs is a good test.

And Everton.

Whilst it's great beating teams we should beat, and that's a complaint we've had for a few seasons, so there's progress on that requirement, we've yet to beat either a direct rival for 5th (6th if the FA Cup permutations work in our favour) or a team in or that has been in the top four, something we've always been able to do, so like it or lump it, that's regression on that requirement.

Likewise a step forward and backwards where goals for and against are concerned.

Question is do we want to be Keegan's Newcastle mk2 / Arsenal lite, or do we actually want to win things?

Cynical, no, just grounded and prepared to face the facts head on.

Let the abuse commence.   
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on March 03, 2013, 10:44:45 PM
Thing is you expect to see all of this happen in the first year. I don't.

No abuse about to commence at all. I just feel it takes longer than 1 season to see the fruits of a plan put together.

I see a gradual process with improvement year in year out. Only when we reach a plateau and keep making the same mistakes again and again, will in my mind questions need to be asked.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 03, 2013, 11:20:46 PM
Thing is you expect to see all of this happen in the first year. I don't.

No abuse about to commence at all. I just feel it takes longer than 1 season to see the fruits of a plan put together.

I see a gradual process with improvement year in year out. Only when we reach a plateau and keep making the same mistakes again and again, will in my mind questions need to be asked.

Counts to 10. No I don't. Edward, do me a favour, quite telling me what I think, what I do and don't want.

What I hope to see is when there is such an obvious problem that something is done to address it. As I wrote yesterday but it obviously needs repeating again, I don't expect our defence to turn into Geroge Graham's back five or our whole team defensive shape to repeat the feat of the 1978/79 team, but I do expect to see something. Even Wigan yesterday, as poor as they were, got in behind and through too easily.
In the first minute we nearly conceded and it was only thanks to Kone having three left feet that we didn't, but the defending from the team, not the defense in isolation was poor, as it was at various times yesterday.

Hell, I'm sick of writing it and a 100 times more sick of seeing it. I'd rather be enjoying the way the coaching staff have started to address the issue but it's the most common complaint I've read on the Swansea forums too, aswell as our own.
The absolute most I expected from the entire season was to see the philosophy start to take shape in a way that balanced out requirements at both ends of the field, and as far as what the season brought that we would qualify for Europe. How? Well through the league was preferable as that would be a huge indicator of progress in the mainstay of a season, but I'd be happy with through a cup competition.
I'm a bit old fashioned there you see. I like winning trophies, irrespective of what they are. For me a trophy is a trophy. I don't get all picky placing one trophy over another.
If the League Cup (Milk Cup at the time) was good enough for Bob Paisley it sure as Hell is good enough for me. 

I understand your point about gradual progress and I share it with you, as that is the most likely way for success to be maintained if it's built on a solid, sustainable base, but we have to also consider  the bigger picture of FFP and what effect or not (though I'm not convinced by it at all, we can't be complacent all the same) that will have.
Call me cynical, but if it's enforced it sees the door slammed on another City/Chelsea situation, therefore reinforcing the status quo unless the wheels come off dramatically at one or two of City, United or Chelsea.
If it's not enforced the status quo remains of the team with the fattest wallet most likely wins the most often.

So you see gradual progress, depending on how gradual, and that's the crux of the matter, could see us on the outside once the FFP door is properly shut.   
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Martinmarx on March 08, 2013, 09:21:50 AM
Thing is you expect to see all of this happen in the first year. I don't.

No abuse about to commence at all. I just feel it takes longer than 1 season to see the fruits of a plan put together.

I see a gradual process with improvement year in year out. Only when we reach a plateau and keep making the same mistakes again and again, will in my mind questions need to be asked.

Likewise indeed. This is exactly how I feel as well. A year ago we couldn't score to save our lifes. Fast forward 12 months and we're the 3rd best scoring side in the league that with 10 games remaining having won more games with 3 or more since the 87/88 season.

2 and a half years ago the club was on the brink of administration. The continuous drain of knowledgeable footy people like Parry have gone (no thank yous Rafa). New owners with, admittedly, limited knowledge and experience in this game. In steps a young and inexperienced manager who's having us play better footy than we have in ages, a manager who, and very much unlike his predecessors dating back to GH, fixes the lesser-team banana skin in less than 6 months. A manager who gets our quality players to commit to the cause. A manager who brings in top talent that seems to hit the ground running unlike how it's been.

He haven't managed to sort out the defence as of yet tho. But maybe there's just so much you can do inside 3 quarters of a season? I'm just so happy the dull, depressing, life-consuming performances of GH and Rafa - where you could tell after 20-25 we wouldn't score - seems to be a thing of the past.

It is my utter conviction that in 2 transfer windows time we'll have a side in place making the world wonder if those years outside the top 4 was just a bad dream. No doubt about that whatsoever.

Oh, and I don't think Edward told you what you think in his post. He may have assumed things which, in my book, is an all together different matter.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on March 08, 2013, 06:32:31 PM
Thing is you expect to see all of this happen in the first year. I don't.

No abuse about to commence at all. I just feel it takes longer than 1 season to see the fruits of a plan put together.

I see a gradual process with improvement year in year out. Only when we reach a plateau and keep making the same mistakes again and again, will in my mind questions need to be asked.
Thing is you have very little credibility with respect to your judgement
on this forum and a track record of blowing with the prevailing wind.

The point you miss is that some aspects, traits of a manager change and
others don't. We look at the entire picture and speaking for myself, to date,
I remain resolutely unimpressed by his performance as manager of this club,
but will defer judgement on his suitability 'til the end of the season (even if I
don't particularly warm to his personality).

Before you begin to eulogise non-achievement, take Laudrup as an example,
comes into a club in a foreign league which has sold two of its best midfielders.
With a minimum of fuss, he guides them to the Carling Cup and they're currently
two points behind us in the league.

So do me a favour and quit the wise buddha act, we've seen in reference
to Henderson, Reina & Chang just how wrong your predictions usually are and
the depth of your patience really is.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 09, 2013, 12:46:09 AM
Oh, and I don't think Edward told you what you think in his post. He may have assumed things which, in my book, is an all together different matter.

As we sing from different hymn sheets I'll presume we read from different books, and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on March 09, 2013, 09:44:39 AM
It's quite clear you expect improvement in all areas within 12 months from what I see of your posts.

As the link I provided in the season 12/13 thread showed there is a case for the defence. I would appreciate your feedback on that.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 09, 2013, 03:01:33 PM
It's quite clear you expect improvement in all areas within 12 months from what I see of your posts.

As the link I provided in the season 12/13 thread showed there is a case for the defence. I would appreciate your feedback on that.

Simply stating we've conceded x fewer or more doesn't tell the story. I've stated times many why conceding goals in pairs on so many occasions has been problematical. Endless clean sheets, I don't expect, some, note I wrote some, not complete, or total, or massive, some improvement is what I expect.
I see no worth in not balancing the improvement between defence and attack. Whilst it's great to have Suarez scoring more goals, but we haven't improved our ability to spread the goals around the team more (but hey, what the, I'll conveniently overlook that point aswell), it's self defeating and a bit soul destroying if you can't defend a lead you've created and see out a game, especially two goal leads.

Actually watching the game unfold, watching the defensive setup, and scratching below the surface of simply stating we've only conceded 'two more goals' in a set period of the author's selection is not seeing a bigger picture. I could dredge up a few figures to prove a different argument but I'm growing tired of repeating myself and what feels like a game of back and forth tit for tat..

If the defensive aspect is taking/ will take longer to learn then why not lessen the pace of change, or change at a lesser rate from the start, increasing the pace as the basics are understood and mastered. Rodgers himself stated he changed things too quickly at Reading and Watford. Why not go for evolution not revolution, limiting the problems caused by major change.

I just prefer to look at the whole thing in it's entirety, not pick out a few highlights, whilst ignoring things less favourable. Ignoring the mistakes you make even though you may have won is not the way to achieve long term and sustainable and sustained improvement.

Anyway I'm tired of you two just not accepting that some of us see things differently, not because we've got a point to prove or a forecast to try to get right, or that there's a position we refuse to take for the sake of it. In fact mine, Dude's and Ed's positions and views on things all differ, but as we're not throwing a street party in honour of Brendan, and aren't prepared to just see the good but prefer to see everything, we're all just lumped in as 'haters'. Unlike Martin's constant referal to Chelsea's manager (why he does it, I still don't see, but what the Hell), there's no personal aspect against Mr Brendan Rodgers. Whatever the name of the manager, is immaterial as you would have seen when Benitez was manager here.
And whilst I enjoy the more positive style and Luis' increased proficiency in front of goal, I refuse to ignore other aspects less favourable. Simple really.

And Edward, define 'all areas' for me. Spell it out, area by area and then I'll tell you what my expectations actually where/are.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on March 09, 2013, 06:48:56 PM
All areas:-

Offensively

Defensively

Physically

Mentally

Philosophically

Tactically

Financially

Identifiably
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on March 09, 2013, 06:55:04 PM
All areas:-

Offensively

Defensively

Physically

Mentally

Philosophically

Tactically

Financially

Identifiably

In my opinion we have grown strongly Identifably and Offensively.

We have grown well Tactically and Financially and Philosophically.

We have a lot of growth left Mentally, Defensively and Physically.

In 2015 I'd like our growth to be strong in each of those areas. For us to challenge for the title we need to be strong in all of those areas. To challenge for a CL place I'd say we would need to be strong in 80% of those areas.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 09, 2013, 10:26:03 PM
All areas:-

Offensively

Defensively

Physically

Mentally

Philosophically

Tactically

Financially

Identifiably

Gotcha, you're talking entire club, as you've included 'financially'. That's a whole new subject if we're going to took at the off field side.

Offensively, in isolation, I agree there's improvement, certainly in the absolute end product of goals, however, is that down to the coaching or to Suarez being more clinical than last season. I may be wrong and I haven't compared the number of different goalscorers, who and how many etc, so I stand willing (and hoping) to be corrected, but have we increased the number of scorers, spread the weight amongst the team, or is the difference down to the difference between Suarez of last season and this.

Physically - we do look sharper and fitter, injury prone players have been handled so much better, that's the one obvious, definitive area of improvement, but physically in terms of matching those who's prime weapon is physicality, winning the physical battle and the right to play, which is a much bigger factor in this league than any other European one (main ones), we are out-muscled and brushed aside too easily.

Defensively - area covered ad nauseam.

Mentally - agree with you, we're very brittle. Very disappointing considering the pros we have in our squad. Then again........

Philosophically - I'm really not a fan of the big play that has been made of Rodgers' 'philosophy'. He isn't doing anything unseen before, he's not even re-inventing the wheel. We're just more like the 'old Liverpool' but there were varying shades of that and towards the end of Dalglish's first stint it started to go off track. Evans brought back the flair but without the backbone and since we've been a bit too cautious for what is required for the league. However the ultimate test of any style or philosophy is games won. Nothing else scores you points. The best football is winning football, the style is secondary and can be debated endlessly. Whether he has instilled a philosophy into the club will only be seen with the next appointment and the one after that. Will it be continuity or another switch to a slightly or more obviously different style.

Tactically - still too naive, and I don't think they've been particularly developed to any great degree. We are still very one dimensional and obvious in our approach and we lack the ability to subdue whilst imposing. Plan A.i or A.ii or B is still more of plan A. There's no alternative or adapting to the situation as it unfolds. I think it's all a bit idealistic, naive and shallow at the moment.

Identity - still not sure exactly what you're getting at but I don't see anything too definitive or new. More a sense of back to the future, rather than Brave New World.
Title: Re: Another comeback masterminded by Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 11, 2013, 12:50:34 AM
Chelsea coming from 0-2 down. Their name is on the cup.

Title: Re: Sir Rafael of Benitez to achieve Europa League qualification for us.
Post by: Tes on March 11, 2013, 12:52:20 AM
Talking of which, if they were to lose the final, finish fifth but win the Europa League, does their winning overide the fifth place finish, freeing up 6th as the new 5th?

Wouldn't it be ironic (and not a little useful) if Chelsea winning a trophy allowed us to qualify for Europe through the league?
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on March 11, 2013, 05:52:27 PM
Another thing Rodgers is much better than Rafa at:

(http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1339425.ece/ALTERNATES/s510/Alex+Ferguson+and+Brendan+Rogers+do+a+joint+pre+match+interview)
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Martinmarx on March 11, 2013, 07:50:41 PM
Another thing Rodgers is much better than Rafa at:

(http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1339425.ece/ALTERNATES/s510/Alex+Ferguson+and+Brendan+Rogers+do+a+joint+pre+match+interview)

I always said it's a good thingy to have a manager capable of upholding respectful relations with various actors in the football community, rather than making a tit of oneself and the club for no apparent reason.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on March 11, 2013, 10:50:07 PM
capable of upholding respectful relations with various actors in the football community
Well la di f**king da, the modest oracle...
when's the next showing of Hamlet?
:P
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 11, 2013, 11:22:46 PM
I always said it's a good thingy to have a manager capable of upholding respectful relations with various actors in the football community, rather than making a tit of oneself and the club for no apparent reason.

I agree, Souness was an asshole.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Edward224 on March 11, 2013, 11:43:40 PM
Another thing Rodgers is much better than Rafa at:

(http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1339425.ece/ALTERNATES/s510/Alex+Ferguson+and+Brendan+Rogers+do+a+joint+pre+match+interview)

Yes because they did an interview together as it was after the Hillsborough revelations in September and it was our first game at Anfield after that.

You fuc king c unt using that to berate Rodgers is a new fu cking low.

P.s. I make  no apologies for sidesweeping the swear filter. I don't think i've been as angry as that before when I just saw that post. Knowing fork ING FULL WELL the circumstances of that interview together you still post it. Unlike Hodgson Rodgers does not kiss manc bottom. PR ICK.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on March 12, 2013, 12:20:15 AM
Yes because they did an interview together as it was after the Hillsborough revelations in September and it was our first game at Anfield after that.

You fuc king c unt using that to berate Rodgers is a new fu cking low.

P.s. I make  no apologies for sidesweeping the swear filter. I don't think i've been as angry as that before when I just saw that post. Knowing fork ING FULL WELL the circumstances of that interview together you still post it. Unlike Hodgson Rodgers does not kiss manc bottom. PR ICK.
Xalm down 224. Jesus...

ASI doesn't like swearing and imo you're being unnecessarily
confrontational here.

Before hitting the nuclear button (and I'm glad you're not in charge
of North Korea's weaponry), I suggest you take a moment to consider
whether your interpretation of the post matches the intent of the
poster and based on such consideration temper your response to be
commensurate as opposed to inversely proportional to the possibility ::)
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on March 12, 2013, 08:05:40 PM
Another thing Rodgers is much better than Rafa at:

(http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1339425.ece/ALTERNATES/s510/Alex+Ferguson+and+Brendan+Rogers+do+a+joint+pre+match+interview)

so what do we reckon is being said.

I think there should be a thought bubble from Fergie's head, saying "Feken ell, stop talking endless sh.it.e - and start shining my shoes"
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on March 12, 2013, 08:15:53 PM
I think there should be a thought bubble from Fergie's head
Surprised Rodgers isn't wearing a Jim'll fix it badge (no doubt
224 will be on to me for this as well).
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on March 12, 2013, 11:39:13 PM
Taggart will cease doing that soon enough if Martin's right.  :D

I miss the spats between Wenger and Taggart, but because Arsenal are no longer a threat he's all over Wenger now. Mancini's no good at the jawjaw stuff. I wonder if we'll find out how AVB deals with it.

It's just a shame Dalglish couldn't produce the goods as that would have been classic stuff, Taggart against Dalglish.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on March 13, 2013, 12:03:07 AM
Taggart will cease doing that soon enough if Martin's right.  :D

I miss the spats between Wenger and Taggart, but because Arsenal are no longer a threat he's all over Wenger now. Mancini's no good at the jawjaw stuff. I wonder if we'll find out how AVB deals with it.

It's just a shame Dalglish couldn't produce the goods as that would have been classic stuff, Taggart against Dalglish.
I watched the 2nd half of Utd v. Chelsea (seriously good
football by the Blues) and it was obvious to me why Fergie
would try anything to unnerve Rafa.

Strange (maybe it's a hangover from his days with us) but I
love watching Rafa's teams play (Just hope to Christ Chelsea
get rid of him at the end of the season because whether their
fans see it or not he has the tools there to do something special 
:) ).

What other manager comes from 2-0 down at OT with both
teams fans chanting "You're going to be sacked in the morning" and
does it with such panache, all the while managing an away Europa League tie
on the previous Thursday and keeping John Terry on the bench??

& delightfully shows up the full hypocrisy of Sir Alex Ferguson along
the way?

Respect!
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Gurdeep on April 19, 2013, 07:47:30 AM
A piece on Rafa.....

Rory Smith (The Times)
Last updated at 12:01AM, April 19 2013

As he travelled up the West Coast Main Line a fortnight ago, returning to The Wirral to spend a rare day off with his family, Rafael Benítez found himself surrounded by Everton fans, fresh from their draw with Tottenham Hotspur.

He happily posed for photographs with his former foes, even wandering through the carriages to greet one boy who was too shy to request a picture with Chelsea’s interim manager. As they disembarked at Runcorn, full of profuse thanks, the Evertonians asked just one more favour. “Make sure you beat the Reds***e, Rafa.” At least one set of supporters know exactly where their loyalties lie this weekend. For everyone else, seeing Benítez back at Anfield for the first time since his acrimonious departure almost three years ago is so riddled with torn loyalties, mixed emotions and inner conflict that it is considerably more complicated.

It would be easy to characterise Sunday’s Barclays Premier League fixture as a straightforward homecoming, to suggest that Benítez will be cheered to the rafters on Merseyside and mercilessly jeered by the Chelsea malcontents who cannot forgive him for ancient antagonisms.

There is plenty of corroborating evidence for such a theory. Benítez, after all, still lives on Merseyside. He refers to Liverpool, the city, as home.

Montse, Claudia and Agata, his wife and daughters, and their four dogs — including the youngest, Red — continued to live there while he was at Inter Milan. It is impossible, too, to spend any time with him there, even now, without conversation being interrupted by a stream of wellwishers, asking for photos and autographs, each request duly obliged. He only has to show his face at the city’s Radisson Blu hotel to be served with a Caesar salad and grilled chicken, his lunch of choice.

The city has taken him to its heart. When he left Liverpool, he donated considerable sums to local charities — including £96,000 to the Hillsborough families — and, in the 18 months he was out of work after leaving Italy, he appeared on stage, most notably playing himself in One Night In Istanbul and, at length, in “An Audience With Rafa Benítez,” at the Empire Theatre.

The affection is reciprocated. This is the place where the fans marched in his honour, holding aloft a gilded portrait — known as the Rafatollah — when it emerged that Tom Hicks and George Gillett Jr, the absentee landlords, were planning to part company with him.

In his office is a sheaf of letters, each sent by a fan in the past few years, expressing gratitude for the nights he brought Liverpool and the success he delivered. His favourite ends with the words: “Thank you for giving us our pride back.” Yes, it would be easy to suggest that this is one of English football’s great love stories, now unrequited, after years of happy matrimony. The reality, though, is very different, far more discordant.

No figure in modern football is quite so divisive as Benítez. Even José Mourinho is praised by his critics for boasting no little managerial nous and acknowledged by his admirers to possess a number of less appealing personality traits. There is nuance in the debate. Not with Benítez, his old nemesis.

To some, he is a misunderstood, misrepresented genius, the finest tactician of his generation. To others, he is a fraud, a mediocrity who got lucky.

That is just as true among the Liverpool supporters at the stadium he called home for six years as it is among the football-watching public at large. There are those who would build a statue for all he did at Anfield, and there are those, a small but vocal minority, who would sooner burn an effigy.

In the three years since he departed, the balm of time has not soothed the ire. It has long been held against Benítez that he is a recidivist politician, a goateed Machiavelli, who is never happier than when he is at war with someone, raging against a machine.

To some extent, that is true, but anyone with any degree of understanding of the Liverpool that existed under Hicks and Gillett would admit that it was impossible to be connected to the club and not become embroiled in such machinations. It was a time when owner would brief against owner, players against manager, managing director against commercial team, journalist against journalist and fan against fan. It was a political, poisonous place. The infighting was endemic.

The club have not yet recovered, not fully. Many of the old tensions remain, particularly among the fans, and that, in turn, has politicised Benítez’s legacy. There is an assumption that he will be lauded upon his return. Such an expectation is skewed. What you think of Benítez depends on which version of history you believe.

He, of course, would want it to be boiled down to a list of facts. There is the fifth European Cup, the European Super Cup, the FA Cup and Community Shield — and there are the intangibles: every year, except his last, Liverpool reached the Champions League. In 2009, he came within four points of beating Manchester United to the title.

Where there was once Milan Baros, Igor Biscan and Salif Diao, he brought Fernando Torres, Xabi Alonso and Javier Mascherano. He engineered triumphs over Europe’s grand old houses. In one golden week, his side decimated Manchester United and Real Madrid.

All of that, though, can be countered by his considerable spend, by his lapses in transfer judgment, best represented by Robbie Keane and Alberto Aquilani, by the disappointment of his final year. There are theories that Jamie Carragher and Steven Gerrard gave the team-talk that inspired Istanbul; a widespread belief that he blamed others, principally Rick Parry, the chief executive at the time, for his own failings.

It used to be said that any debate on the internet would boil down to two Liverpool fans arguing about Benítez. It is three years on, and it would be easy to believe that still holds true. Even now, he continues to polarise opinion. Even now, there are no shades of grey. On Sunday, even the line between red and blue will be blurred.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on April 19, 2013, 11:30:12 PM
Thanks for posting that, Gurdeep. It is an excellent observational piece of journalism. For once, there's no hidden agenda just straight forward reporting of a situation how he sees it.

I hope Martin manages to get through Sunday in one piece.

The idol v the voodoo doll.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on April 24, 2013, 11:07:13 PM
just to balance this thread up a bit:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/12/who-said-it-rodgers-brent_n_2667551.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/12/who-said-it-rodgers-brent_n_2667551.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false)

Take the quiz, it's eye watering.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: the dude abides on April 24, 2013, 11:36:16 PM
I got 14 right out of 14.

and had 100 percent when the Guardian ran a similar thing a few weeks back.

but if I was not such an avid reader of Liverpool and Rodger stuff in the media, I would flounder. 

Rodgers has to be utterly embarrassed to be compared to Brent.  If it were me, I;d quickly change my ways.
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Ed on May 25, 2013, 12:49:27 AM
Seems he can't handle the pressure from the club's supporters.

As the saying goes if you can't handle the pressure get out of the kitchen.....

And all of you lot want him back LOL Don't you people understand that the fanbase is completely split on Rafa thus the pressure he would experience would be akin to the pressure as Chelsea manager.

2 or 3 bad results and he'd be under immense scrutiny - not from management but from our fanbase.
It seems Rafa has a new job (and it has nothing to do with bottles).

"Benítez is the new coach of Napoli. I gave myself a birthday present."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/may/24/rafael-benitez-manager-claims-napoli
Title: Re: Another bottle job from Sir Rafael of Benitez
Post by: Tes on May 25, 2013, 07:59:41 PM
According to another website, he's apparently looking to put a bid in for Lucas. Can't see that one getting off the ground.