Anfield Road - Liverpool FC Forum

Football and lesser sports => Liverpool FC, football, sport => Topic started by: centenaryjonny on December 02, 2009, 12:23:45 PM

Title: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 02, 2009, 12:23:45 PM
Now I am fully aware that the fact that I think Rafa has turned us into a laughing stock means that I am obviously not a Liverpool fan or know anything about football, and the fact I have held a season ticket for the past 17 years is highly irrelevent, but here goes anyway!

There is a post on here about how Rafa is under pressure because he's foreign!  Now Ive heard a load of excuses in the past few years, in fact from when he first came, when we finished behind Evertn in 5th, but this is a new one to me!

So it begs the question, which such blind faith and backing, what will it take for people to change their mind?

It seems that the Rafa fans think football, or at least Liverpool began in 2004, but lets compare the record of Rafa an the man whos job he took.

GH:
Seasons: 5
Trophies won: 6
Highest League Position: 2nd
Spent: £116m
Recouped: £51m
Nett: £67m

RB:
Seasons: 5
Trophies won: 4
Highest League Position: 2nd
Spent: £247m
Recouped: £134m
Nett: £113m

Now back in 2004, there wasnt a single person other than Phil Thompson wh wanted GH to keep his job, as he was seen as a failure.  When he took over the club in 1999, Liverpool had won just 3 trophies in the 9 previous years, and nothing fo he past 4, yet despite winning 6 trophies in his 5 years, he was accused of spending too much, and taking the club nowhere. 

Skip forward 5 years and we have a man who has spent double the money in the same amount of time, achieved the same in the league and won just over half as much!  Yet, this man is seen as a saint, the saviour, the one to take us forward, is it only me who sees this as strange?

RB has signed 76 players so far, now when you take into cosideration that Gerrard and Carra have been ever presents, that is 8 players for every position!  8 different players!  Its even worse when you remember that for the past 5 years Hyypia was there and for 4 of the 5 Riise wasalso there so how can this squad be the finished article?

It is not only the transfer fees that have to be taken into account, everytime we sign a player, there is a signing on fee, an agent fee, and their wages until they are eventually shipped off.  We officially have the third biggest squad in europe, yet we are struggling the moment we get more than one injury!  We have seen this week that we spent £70m on agents fees last year, now everytime we buy a 'promising star' whom we never see again, we have to pay this players agent.

One of the main things thrown against GH at the end was the signing of Diouf.  £10m wasted on a striker/winger who had some talent, but was clearly out of his depth at Liverpool and often seemed uninterested

Skip forward now to Mr Ryan Babel.  £12m wasted on a striker/winger who has some talent, but is clearly out of his depth at Liverpool and often seems uninterested. 

GH wanted to sign Ronaldo 6 months before he went to Manure, but was told that £12m was too much to spend on an untested talent of a 19 year old.  3 years later, RB buys Ryan Babel, an untested 19 year old talent.

Out of 76 players, there are maybe 10 players who you could say are good enough for Liverpool.  Included in this list are Agger, who can only play 10 games
a season, and Aquilani who hasnt yet played!  So 66 have been a waste of time in the long run!

So if he's not great in the transfer market, then he must be tactically astute? Ha!!!!

Every fan in the country knows we are useless at defending set pieces, and its not just the set piece itself.  The fact that we have EVERY player in our penalty area means that IF we clear the ball, it comes straight back in, and either leads to a goal, or is hacked away for another set piece!  Now thisis supposed to be a top European club, not a pub team, why do we have 5 players marking the penalty spot and no one picking up the other players?  Why when it is clear to everyone that it doesnt work is it not changed?  What sort of tactical genius persists with something that is costing your team points?

So being manager of a top European club must mean that only the other big clubs can knock you out of cup competitions? Not Burnley (4 years before they were a PL team), Barnsley, Benfica, Fiorentina, Spurs (Bottom of the league, 1 win in 18 games) Everton (after 2 games) 

We would surely not drop points EVERY season at Anfield to newly promoted teams?

We would see a 'plan B' in place if the game is going against us.

Hs substitutions are both predictable and pathetic.  Last week agaist City, we needed a goal, so what does he do, replaces Benny with Aurelio!  Takes off an attacker for a left back!  He hs had Aquilani on the bench for a month now!  Claiming he is not match fit, yet how can he be if he is not played?  He sayshe wont rush someone back from injury, yet Torres was playing with injections until a clearly unfit Gerrard was rushed back!

So if he is useless at tactics, and not the best at transfers, surelyit must be his sparkling personality and people skills.

How many players leave Arsenal or United and slate Wenger or Taggart?  Compare that to the amount of e players who have taken a swipe at Rafa, why?

He has publically slated the owners, the CEO and the general running of the club on a few occasions, how dare he?  Only last week he was saying what a big Madrid fan he was and naming the team from 1981.  Now can he name the Liverpool team that beat his precious Madrid that day?  I doubt it, yet we are paying him £4m a year!

He made a fool out of himself and the cub with his Fergie rant last year, and it stank of desperation!

So why is this man not only still employed, but so highly regarded by so many? 

This is area question, I actually want to know what it is, and why GH didnt have it?
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 02, 2009, 05:26:41 PM
Eww I can answer these like the pro Rafa fans...

He has created more points ... Ok won't mention it doesn't really matter if you have x points if you're still 3rd or 4th in the table all it really reflects is the state of the league as a whole.

He does more in Europe, Won, final, semi, qf, out irrc nowt to say I actually think he's Good in Europe but they would claim he is improving yet irrc he's getting knocked out earlier and earlier. Also as it really is little more than a cup competition I wonder why the same don't work for the domestic cups.

But, but he's not had that to spend he only gets xyz, yeah yeah no one will tell me why there isn't a squad of 16. So he's not had that much to spend OK so we're comparing to AW mmm well he loses that comparison.

As for give him more time at Valencia he also inherited a squad, has had a little to do with the youth. I also suspect he was far more removed than the God like hand he's been given. Me wonders how the youth are doing this season. Now he has got what he wanted OK accept a little early but unless it is turned around not looking good at the mo.

As for why better than GH I have no excuses, I've yet to see anything beyond points and Europe. GH was 5th won a cup then 4th before he departed. Not to mention in some seasons even 4th didn't qualify for Europe. Yet RB hasn't had a cup for 3 seasons.
GH 7th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 5th, 4th.
RB 5th(Lucky to be Europe the following year), 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 2nd 
I think we might accept he's gained one place in consistency for the money spent. Last year isn't the consistency

So all that money spent and he's basically jostling just above AW who made 35 mil last year has a stadium and is paying it off.

I hope you get some answers than just mine but I've asked similar and had little response.

Edit then you have who
But they wouldn't of had AW, not to mention 2 domestic leagues and UEFA cup does open it up a little more but the names bandied about are bigger hitters than that.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Irish_Mark on December 02, 2009, 10:13:56 PM
I'm really tiring of this crap. I'm not even going to read this
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 03, 2009, 01:15:04 PM
I'm really tiring of this crap. I'm not even going to read this

HA!!!

Whats the matter someone ruining your argument that RB is god by throwing a few facts in like he's spent twice as much and won half as much as the man he replaced?

Not to mention the fact that £14m of that money was spent on Ciise, who GH never got to work with, so you could actually take that money off GHs total and add it to RB, but hey, that would be petty!

Your response doesnt really surprise me though, you seem to sum up the argument that pro-rafa, often irish fans have, 'erm, I'm going to ignore that, Rafa is great!!!!'

But thanks again for leaving a response on something that you admit to not reading!! Fool.

What does it look like in the sand?
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Kopite999 on December 03, 2009, 02:06:13 PM
I hope your still posting at the end of the season. Its easier to criticise than to support in bad times. Personally i'm looking forward to a nice trip to Hamburg and bringing home the Europa Cup.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 03, 2009, 02:15:53 PM
I hope your still posting at the end of the season. Its easier to criticise than to support in bad times. Personally i'm looking forward to a nice trip to Hamburg and bringing home the Europa Cup.

Hey I'm not trying to criticise, it is something I honestly dont understand.

How can one manager be called from every angle, have everyone in the stadium against him and be sacked on the grounds that he can take us no further, yet his replacement spends twice as much money to win half as much, achieve exactly the same in the league, yet be a hero?

It makes no sense!!!!

As for the Europa league, I want to win everything, but I dont really think its anything to get excited about, can you imagine what we'd say if United were in it? For a club the size and power of ours to be excited for winning a european trophy that is also contested with Fulham is a bit of a joke!!

Of course I want to win everything, but it will be a bit bitter sweet to do so, dont you agree?

As for Rafa, I have thought him to be a useless excuse of a manager ever since we lost to Sao Paulo in December 2005. And nothing since has convinced me otherwise, however, as I said before, I simply want to know why GH was villified, yet RB is applauded for doing half as well whilst spending twice as much?

Again, a simply answer, and not an insult would be great
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Kopite999 on December 03, 2009, 04:55:13 PM
Our hand has now been dealt in Europe. Yeah i'd rather be in Madrid in May, who wouldnt, but being in Hamburgs the next best thing. I didnt go to Dortmund in 2001, but the fans i know that went rave about it being one of the best european ventures they been on. I'll be trying to get flights sorted next week. Optimistic or stupid i for one would love another european final. It may not rank as highly as Istanbul,and other finals but the experiance of travelling with the red army on the continent for a final cannot be beaten.

 
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Juan on December 03, 2009, 06:19:18 PM

As for Rafa, I have thought him to be a useless excuse of a manager ever since we lost to Sao Paulo in December 2005. And nothing since has convinced me otherwise, however, as I said before, I simply want to know why GH was villified, yet RB is applauded for doing half as well whilst spending twice as much?



Centeraryjonny everyone is entitled to their opinion on Rafa. What I find hard to take is that you say you thought he was a "useless excuse of a manager ever since we lost to Sao Paulo in December 2005".

Thats fair enough but why is it only now then that you join a forum like this to have a go at the guy.

Where were your complaints when we were reaching the Champions league final in 2007 or finishing runner up in the league last may if you lost faith in him back in December 2005.

I just find and this isnt necessarily directed at you centeraryjonny that some fans will shout a managers name from the rooftops when they are doing well but the support quickly dries up at the first sign of trouble.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 04, 2009, 10:03:06 AM
Centeraryjonny everyone is entitled to their opinion on Rafa. What I find hard to take is that you say you thought he was a "useless excuse of a manager ever since we lost to Sao Paulo in December 2005".

Thats fair enough but why is it only now then that you join a forum like this to have a go at the guy.

Where were your complaints when we were reaching the Champions league final in 2007 or finishing runner up in the league last may if you lost faith in him back in December 2005.

I just find and this isnt necessarily directed at you centeraryjonny that some fans will shout a managers name from the rooftops when they are doing well but the support quickly dries up at the first sign of trouble.

Hey, believe me I was there, a were lot of the lads who sit by me at the match!

Last season was a joke, I doubt there will ever be an easier time to win the league! To think had we managed to score 2 goals against Stoke we would be champions just hurts!!  Chelsea changed managers half way through the season and were miles off the pace, whilst Manure were struggling at the start, then went to Japan halfway through the season!  We let a 12 point lead slip to being being 4 points behind!  To go over a month without a win was just embarassng!

The CL is a cup competition, and as such can be won by a team with the right draw, a bit of luck etc, it should not be used to judge a manager the way the league is.  The fact that we managed to get to the final 2 out of 3 years is surely proof of that, as is the fact that the AC Milan Retirement home achieved the same!  Porto won it the year before us, and Arsenal were in the final a year later.  If it is a way to messure the success of a manager, then surely getting knocked out in the group stages by two relative no marks counts against Sir Rafa?

The league is how we judge managers, it always has been, and Rafa has achieved the same as Houllier, having spent twice as much in the same time, so my question simply is why does he still have a job and such a misguided aura around him?
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: harry on December 05, 2009, 05:22:23 PM
Take heart.  I think this season might be a real eye-opener for the majority of fans who still support RB.  Liverpool might have the better players coz of its ability to attract bigger name players due to its reputation but Spurs, Villa and City are managed by managers who understand the EPL better and as such, I fancy them have a real go at the top four. 

Dun get me wrong....I hope liverpool will be in CL but sometimes, it is better to endure short-term pain and go through long-term suffering.    One seaons w/o CL will not be enough for the owners to sack RB but it will open up the eyes of pro-Rafa fans.  You can't blame pro-Rafa fans for being so supportive of him coz RB has played the political game very well.

It is interesting that in these difficult times, only the Spanish players whom RB signed have come out openly to support RB.  SG and JC have remained silent apart from the former rallying everyone to stick together.  Not surprising, RB has come out and praised JC for "being back to his best".  he has continued his politcal games.  He knows he cannot lose the dressing roombut there is only so much politicking can help.

Sooner or later, he will lose the support of the important players.  It is only then that the owners might finally have the guts to sack him. It is too bad that we a set of bad owners and that gave him the veil to hide behind.  But he won't be able to hide foreover.

I do think that he is a better manager than GH but that is still not enough.  People keep crediting him for the CL triumph but that has as much to do with the  strength of EPL  plus the fact that they were out of running for the title as early in Jan so that the players can focus on the CL.  Luck also played a major part (think of Garcia's goal agst Chelsea and Shevcheko's incredible miss in the dying mins in the final).
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 06, 2009, 06:39:03 PM
Take heart.  I think this season might be a real eye-opener for the majority of fans who still support RB.  Liverpool might have the better players coz of its ability to attract bigger name players due to its reputation but Spurs, Villa and City are managed by managers who understand the EPL better and as such, I fancy them have a real go at the top four. 

Dun get me wrong....I hope liverpool will be in CL but sometimes, it is better to endure short-term pain and go through long-term suffering.    One seaons w/o CL will not be enough for the owners to sack RB but it will open up the eyes of pro-Rafa fans.  You can't blame pro-Rafa fans for being so supportive of him coz RB has played the political game very well.

It is interesting that in these difficult times, only the Spanish players whom RB signed have come out openly to support RB.  SG and JC have remained silent apart from the former rallying everyone to stick together.  Not surprising, RB has come out and praised JC for "being back to his best".  he has continued his politcal games.  He knows he cannot lose the dressing roombut there is only so much politicking can help.

Sooner or later, he will lose the support of the important players.  It is only then that the owners might finally have the guts to sack him. It is too bad that we a set of bad owners and that gave him the veil to hide behind.  But he won't be able to hide foreover.

I do think that he is a better manager than GH but that is still not enough.  People keep crediting him for the CL triumph but that has as much to do with the  strength of EPL  plus the fact that they were out of running for the title as early in Jan so that the players can focus on the CL.  Luck also played a major part (think of Garcia's goal agst Chelsea and Shevcheko's incredible miss in the dying mins in the final).

A lot of sense spoken there, especially when talking about the political side of it all.  He has for a long time been playing a game with the fans, with more spin than a Gerrard free kick!

First off, signing Fowler.  Everyone knew he was finished, but everybody loved him, and loved RB for bringing him home,  however, his move was for more political than footbal reasons.  Still struggling in the league, after finishing 5th, out of the CL, Fowler gave the fans a lift, and RB some praise.  The fact that he only played for 10 minutes was irrelevant!!

The Yanks.  Now nobody is truly happy with them, but Rafa has played this card to perfection.  By costantly bemoaning the fact that he has no money, he has no only given his failing team an excuse, but driven a divide between himself and the owners, with the majority on his side.  These however are the facts.  RB has spent more money than any other Liverpool manager.  He has broken the clubs transfer record for every out field position on the pitch.  LB - Dossena, RB - Johnson, CB - Skrtel, Agger, RM - Kuyt, LM - Riera, CM - Alonso, Masch, CF Torres.  That is without Babel, who could be themost expensive on either side, more than both Riera and Kuyt.  Now the fact that 7 of these 11 players have been bought since the yanks have come tells a different story than RB would have you believe.  With the Yanks money, he has broken Liverpools transfer record for 7 POSITIONS IN 2 YEARS!!!!!  Not bad for someone who has no financial backing!!

His Fergie rant, now everyone agrees with him, it is common knowledge, but doing it in the way he did and at the timme he did was total desperation!  From being top over christmas with Utd in Japan, we went a month without a win, and handed the league to Utd!  By having his rant, he as no different to Keegan, yet some of the RB lovers actually missed the desperation of this and saw his slating of United as him being 'one of us'!

On selling Robbie Keane he declared himself happy with the strikers at the club, then when we didnt win the league he said it was because Torres was out for so long. 

In the summer he refused to sell Voronin, saying he had a future at the club, i think he has featured in 3 games this year.

Last summer he tried to sell Alonso to anyone who'd listen for £15m, yet this summer he tried to keep hold of him despite Madrid offering £30m, saying he'd tried everything but the player wanted to go.

We were told Aqualani would be out till October, it is now December, and he has played less than half an of first team football, in fact he has not featured (30 seconds doesnt count) since the Birmingham game at the start of November!  A month ago!  Now either he isnt as good as RB thought, or he is keeping him away as yet another excuse for his teams failings.  He said last week that he will never rush players back, yet Gerrard hasnt been fit since his return, and Torres was playing with injections and had to be rushed off as soon as we took the lead!

     
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 07, 2009, 03:09:38 PM
Now I am fully aware that the fact that I think Rafa has turned us into a laughing stock means that I am obviously not a Liverpool fan or know anything about football, and the fact I have held a season ticket for the past 17 years is highly irrelevent <snipped the rest of the blathering>

you sound an awful lot like a nutball from the Liverpool usenet forum, called 'Pompous Pope'. 

Anyways, it's quite obvious that the folks in here have no time for you, or your other persona ('harry').

so rather than try and promote aggravation in the forum, why don't you just p.iss off

and take Misery with you.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 07, 2009, 05:38:07 PM
you sound an awful lot like a nutball from the Liverpool usenet forum, called 'Pompous Pope'. 

Anyways, it's quite obvious that the folks in here have no time for you, or your other persona ('harry').

so rather than try and promote aggravation in the forum, why don't you just p.iss off

and take Misery with you.


And there my point is proven!!

It is similar to the story of the 'emporers new clothes'. If anyone say anything against Rafa, they are not met with resonable responses, as the pro rafas havent been told what to think this week!  They are instead met with unnecesarry abuse and told to go away.

I've got news for you dude.  Nobody seems to use this site PERIOD!  When one of the main posters is apparently an Irish man from USA, then you can guess at the amount of common sense on show!

Every argument/discussion we have had in my short time on here you have failed to point one singe valid point across, nd instead have to stoop to simple name calling!

I'm assuming, as this seems to be a pro rafa site, that the majority of the normal posters hav disappeared since th drop in form,and will soon pop up like a bunch of mouth blue noses once we get a win on wednesday!

So Dude, please, no name calling, no nonesense, a simple discussion about the club that we both apparently love so much.  Simple question.

How can one manager be sacked, after the fans hate him, and because he can apparently 'take the club no further', yet another manager after spending twice as much and winning half as much is loved by so many?

VERY SIMPLE QUESTION, JUST YOUR OPINION, NOT ABUSE, AN ANSWER.

Thanks
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Juan on December 07, 2009, 07:10:46 PM

I'm assuming, as this seems to be a pro rafa site, that the majority of the normal posters hav disappeared since th drop in form,and will soon pop up like a bunch of mouth blue noses once we get a win on wednesday!

How can one manager be sacked, after the fans hate him, and because he can apparently 'take the club no further', yet another manager after spending twice as much and winning half as much is loved by so many?

VERY SIMPLE QUESTION, JUST YOUR OPINION, NOT ABUSE, AN ANSWER.

Thanks

To be honest Centenaryjonny I think its testament to the Liverpool fans that the team can go on a bad run like this and still not call for the managers head.

One of the things that attracted me into supporting LFC when I was growing up was the so called "Liverpool Way". Managers were always given the time and backing of the board, fans were patient and what ever happened managers were never sacked, there was a parting of ways.

But in an era when we arent by any means the richest team, we are competing against two multi billionaire owners in the Sheik and Roman, when we are competing against a United side that sells out a 76000 seater stadium week in week out you would expect Liverpool fans to be even more rational than ever. But instead the so called Liverpool way seems to have disappeared when its needed most. Competition for the top spot is tougher than it ever was.

You keep going back to Houllier, a manager that i admired greatly right up until the time he left. He put Liverpool back on the map as far as Europe was concerned, he built a team a good team with a strong spine but that never challenged in the league. Surely the fact that Benitez could take a team built by Houllier add a couple of players and win the champions league validates the boards decision to have made that change.

Houllier may have won us cups finished second in the league but he never built a team that actually challenged like we did last season. You can finish second and never really challenge and you can finish second running the eventual winners close all the way as we did last season.

Houllier didnt have to put up with the boardroom squabbling, one owner trying to take his job. For the most of his time at Liverpool he had the backing of Moores and Parry and that is something you cannot say Benitez was afforded by Hicks and Gillette.

Benitez has built a team that has year in year out finished in the champions league positions, that has made 2 european cup finals in 5 years, won and fa cup yet fans still complain. His average net spend per season is roughly 20 million yet you still expect him to finish above teams with net spendings of 2 or 3 times that amount.

The fact that the most successful manager in the league took 7 seasons to win the league should be example enough for you to get behind Benitez instead of calling for his head. Where would United be today if Ferguson had been given the bullet. They wouldnt have 18 league titles. That doesnt mean Rafa will be as successful as Ferguson has been but I certainly think his track record in the his 5 years shows without doubt that he should be afforded more time. 

If you want to see a managerial merry go round Newcastle is your club. But this is Liverpool and although at times it seems dead and buried I still like to think the Liverpool Way is alive and kicking. That means supporting the manager whoever that may be when the chips are down. Try becoming part of the solution and not adding to our already growing list of problems
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 07, 2009, 08:15:50 PM
It is similar to the story of the 'emporers new clothes'. If anyone say anything against Rafa, they are not met with resonable responses, as the pro rafas havent been told what to think this week!  They are instead met with unnecesarry abuse and told to go away.

you are abusive and deliberately divisive.

what's this endless rubbish you (and your puppets) spout re 'pro-Rafa's'?

Liverpool fans are pro-Liverpool Football Club.

so stop with the childish attempt at trying to divide the supporters.


I've got news for you dude.  Nobody seems to use this site PERIOD!  When one of the main posters is apparently an Irish man from USA, then you can guess at the amount of common sense on show!

if you're so smart, then how come you're in the tiny tiny minority who want rid of Rafa then?


I'm assuming, as this seems to be a pro rafa site, that the majority of the normal posters hav disappeared since th drop in form

this site is a pro-Liverpool FC website.


How can one manager be sacked, after the fans hate him, and because he can apparently 'take the club no further', yet another manager after spending twice as much and winning half as much is loved by so many?

Liverpool, despite having relatively little to spend, have managed to hang in there, at the top end of the league.....even managing to challenge United for the title last season. 

Plus, we have enjoyed a golden era (our best ever) in Europe, these past 5 seasons.  This is illustrated by UEFA's ranking of the club.



Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 07, 2009, 08:48:44 PM
Hey Juan,

Thanks for actually putting forward an argument, and hopefully this wll be the start of a sensible discussion.

Whilst I agree with some of your points, there are one or two that I dont. 

You say that RB is the first one to have a team 'challenge' for the title.  We 'challenged' for the title for about 3 weeks.  Up until beating United, we were well out of it, we had already thrown away any chance we had by going a month without a win, but after beating them, then Fulham, and Fulham beating them, there was a moments excitement, but in truth, no one outside of Anfield thought we had a chance.  We finished the season 4 points behind United, whilst Houllier finished 7 points behind Arsenal and 3 points above United. This brings up two very good points:

1.) When GH finished 2nd it was the first time for 11 years we had done it, thus a GIANT leap forward, following the failings of 2 previous managers.  When RB did it, it was 7 years later, and for 5 of those years RB WAS IN CHARGE!!

2.) GH finished 3 points above United, now in the 5 years of RB's reign, he has SPENT MORE NETT THAN FERGIE!!!! So themoney argument goes out of the window and the closest has got is 4 points behind!!

You say about the 'Liverpool Way', thats all well and good when al is well and good, but whe its clearly not working, as we have won NOTHING for 3 years and have the worst squad in the top 10, then maybe its time for a change.  Ancelotti has gone to Chelsea, signed one player, and has got a team playing great football and winning.  It doesnt always take time, a good manager is a good manager.  Tell me honestly if Fergie, Wenger, Ancelotti, even Moyes, Redknapp, ONeill took over for the rest of the season, and RB took over their teams , who do you think would finish higher? 

The problem with taking time, is that sometimes, you dont have it.  2 of our best 3 players are Gerrard and Carra.  Now Carra is 32 next month, whilst Gerrard will be 30 in the summer.  So at best we will get 2 maybe 3 seasons from Carra and 4 maybe 5 seasons from Stevie.  But only probably 2 with Stevie at his best.  We have already seen that we are useless when these players dont play, so how do we replace them?  We apparently have no money, are already out of this seasons CL and title race, so wheres our glorious future?  We need to be winning things now, whlst we still have these 2, and under RB I cant see that happening.

Unlike you, I didnt 'pick' my club.  My father is from Liverpool, as is his father, as was his father, they all supported Liverpool, and thus there was no 'choice' when it came to me.  My own son is now 7, and is a walking encyclopedia on Liverpool already, so please dont dare suggest that because I want the best for my club that I should go and support Newcastle, or tat Ishold instead get behind them.  I havent missed a match at Anfield for 17 years, so please dont lecture me on the Liverpool Way or anything else you may have seen on LFC TV.  The 'Hallowed Turf', The 'Boot Room', The 'Sweat Box'.  It means nothing to RB, he has caused most public rifts with the owners in a desperate attempt to get the fans onside.  Do you really think Shankly would be proud ofthis current shower?  He'd be doing 360s in his grave if he could see the state of the club he built from nothing!   

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 07, 2009, 09:05:40 PM
you are abusive and deliberately divisive.

what's this endless rubbish you (and your puppets) spout re 'pro-Rafa's'?

Liverpool fans are pro-Liverpool Football Club.

so stop with the childish attempt at trying to divide the supporters.


if you're so smart, then how come you're in the tiny tiny minority who want rid of Rafa then?


this site is a pro-Liverpool FC website.


Liverpool, despite having relatively little to spend, have managed to hang in there, at the top end of the league.....even managing to challenge United for the title last season. 

Plus, we have enjoyed a golden era (our best ever) in Europe, these past 5 seasons.  This is illustrated by UEFA's ranking of the club.





My God, are really that hard of thinking, okay, bit by bit

'The small minority'  There was recently a 'pro-rafa' march, I think it was before the Hull City game.  Out of the 46000 at the game, do you know how many marched? 1500!!!!!!!!!!  So I think 1500 out of 46000 is the minortiy, not theother way round.  These are people who actually go to the games, see his tactics first hand, and want him out.

'Our best ever period in Europe'? Really? So in 6 years, there has been 1 QF, 1 SF, 2 Finals and a Win.  Not bad, seems as though we're getting worse, but still a good achievement.  However not quite as good as 3 Wins in 6 years, or 4 wins in 8 years, I think that would be known as our 'best ever period in Europe', and also bear in mind that had the rules not been changed to let eveyone play in the CL, RB wouldnt have qualified at for the European Cup!!  So go and read your history before making stupid comments!

'Liverpool having relatively little to spend' is a common myth.  Relative to what? Itself, it so, RB has broken the clubs transfer record for every position on the pitch, and if he has no more money, maybe its because he has bought 10 players for EVERY OUTFIELD POSITON since his arrival!!!!! If you are comparing us to United, our biggest rivals, RB has SPENT MORE NETT THAN FERGIE in the same space of time.  In fact, With the possible exception of Mark Hughes RB has OUTSPENT EVERY MANAGER IN THE LEAGUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lastly, I am not trying to divide supporters, I want the best for Liverpool.  I wanted that when I was saying GH should go, and I want that now.  So please, do just make stuff up to try and make a good argument, because you clearly dont know a lot about the club.     
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: buck on December 07, 2009, 10:32:28 PM
Well as a Welshman who occasionally posts on here, everyone is entitled to their opinion centuryjohn, even though I totally disagree with yours.  However, by your standards the only people who can have a valid football opinion are "English" people, no doubt only people who are true Scousers while everyone is a stupid foreigner.

So by you making ignorant, racist and derogatory remarks why should I bother even lowering myself to having any kind of discussion with you, a so-called supporter of LFC.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Ed on December 07, 2009, 11:07:37 PM
I agree with the Dude!

In general I'm not happy (in fact I'm seriously pissed off) about how we started this season and fair enough the buck stops with Rafa regarding that. But I don't feel the need to question the managers ability on a weekly basis ad nauseum.

In particular, those people who claim to attend matches weekly (season ticket holders since 1892) should get down and dirty with proper arguments about players, systems and tactics rather than regurgitating tired arguments about money and transfers that even people that don't know what football is are probably familiar with by now.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: wittsy on December 08, 2009, 12:18:45 AM
It really isn't worth answering anything sensible to these posts as what ever we say will be turned by some or totally ingored. If you want to know why there is little activity on here these days it is because anti Rafa minded people came on and hijacked every post with the opinion that we are all idiots because we don't want Rafa dead..

We've had a bad start... BIG DEAL  shed happens..

Jas
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 08, 2009, 02:43:33 AM
'The small minority'  There was recently a 'pro-rafa' march, I think it was before the Hull City game.  Out of the 46000 at the game, do you know how many marched? 1500!!!!!!!!!!  So I think 1500 out of 46000 is the minortiy, not theother way round.  These are people who actually go to the games, see his tactics first hand, and want him out.

bloddy ell, your analysis of events and data is bizarre (to say the least).

I still think you're that infamous nutball from the Liverpool usenet forum - who calls himself, Pompous Pope.

'Liverpool having relatively little to spend' is a common myth.  Relative to what? Itself, it so, RB has broken the clubs transfer record for every position on the pitch, and if he has no more money, maybe its because he has bought 10 players for EVERY OUTFIELD POSITON since his arrival!!!!! If you are comparing us to United, our biggest rivals, RB has SPENT MORE NETT THAN FERGIE in the same space of time.  In fact, With the possible exception of Mark Hughes RB has OUTSPENT EVERY MANAGER IN THE LEAGUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lastly, I am not trying to divide supporters, I want the best for Liverpool.  I wanted that when I was saying GH should go, and I want that now.  So please, do just make stuff up to try and make a good argument, because you clearly dont know a lot about the club.     

you're not a genuine supporter of the club. And you're only here to stir trouble and aggravate.  But I'll give you this much, you're no newbie to discussion forums.  You display a fair bit of experience. 

Where you fall down (in trying to wind up people) is that there is no fun in your posts.  They lack any humour or any hint of genuine analysis.

As has been said above (by Wittsy), the reason this forum has died these past few weeks, is because of you and Misery.  I deliberately stopped responding to you both, some weeks back.  I didn't want to clog this place up in negativity/flames.  I'd have been giving you both (you and Misery), exactly what you wanted. 
 
Anyroads, let's have a look at your notions that we have spent more than our Premiership rivals.

I'll let Paul Tomkins fill in the details.


So what does it cost to achieve success in the Premiership? The following is an in-depth look at the costs involved in challenging for the title, and why, based on everything barring history and prestige, Liverpool have no right to expect to be any higher than 4th on any given season.

Using a mixture of data from ‘Red Race: A New Bastion’, updated (2009/10) versions of that analysis and information gleaned from new highly reputable sources, this is a fairly definitive account of the wherewithal required to win the Premiership in the current climate.

For me, it is a must-read for Liverpool supporters, because it is all about putting the expectations into context.

In their excellent new book, ‘Why England Lose: and Other Curious Phenomena Explained’ (aka ‘Soccernomics’), Simon Kuper and Stefan Szymanski note that while money spent on transfers does have a bearing on success, it is wages that make the greatest difference: an 89% correlation between how much a club spends on wages and how successful it is (based on data from 1998-2007).

Of course, the best players demand the biggest wages; sometimes this will mean paying a large fee, but it could also mean getting a ‘free’ transfer (that costs £121,000 a week, or £30m in total, as seen with Michael Ballack) or, of course, hanging on to your existing stars who would otherwise be tempted away.

My own data shows that there is actually a strong correlation between success and the money spent on transfers, particularly in the most recent Premiership seasons. Kuper and Szymanski’s sample period of 1978-1997 takes into account the time before transfer spending had such a great effect; prior to the mid-’90s, cheaply assembled and newly promoted teams could win the league. It predates Chelsea’s mega-spending, which effectively ended the hopes of a lower-spending side like Arsenal of winning the league, particularly when big spending is allied to world-class management.

My own Relative Transfer System compares eras in what I feel to be a more accurate way, because it converts fees to a percentage of the then-record transfer. As detailed in Red Race, teams ‘need’ to have an average of 32% of the transfer record to be successful in the modern era; in other words, by today’s terms, the average cost of a strongest XI has to be around £11m per player to land the English title. My research also shows that this figure needs to be even greater to win the Premiership for the ‘first’ time.


Squad Costs

Let’s start with last year’s results from my own research, given that it is a full set of data, gleaned from the entire 2008/09 season. (The number crunching behind this can be found in this downloadable PDF, Red Race Stat Pack.)

Note: the figures used for transfers were meticulously researched, but there will always be discrepancies due to undisclosed fees, estimates, swap deals and countless confusing clauses. In all cases, the maximum payable fee when including all clauses is used; hence Robbie Keane, sold back to Spurs for a minimum £12m, is listed as £19m, because the Reds could end up receiving that amount.
(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1607/1squadcost09.jpg)

Based solely on the cost of all players used over the course of the campaign, Liverpool ‘should’ have finished 5th in the league; it obviously doesn’t work that way, but it highlights the difference in wherewithal with other clubs.

In the cases of Spurs and Manchester City, it could be argued that the managers were working with a lot of players they didn’t especially want –– particularly so in the case of Harry Redknapp, who inherited a ragtag collection of costly signings. Indeed, the Spurs situation is quite reminiscent of Roy Evans’ tenure at Liverpool, where his own expensive signings were mixed with the costly deadwood of his predecessor, which is never easy to shift without incurring a massive loss, and certainly can’t be done overnight.

(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/2719/2pointspermillion.jpg)
Of course, these squad costs don’t give the true ‘price’ of each transfer at the time it was made. Managers in position for longer will be able to call upon expensive players bought earlier in their reigns, when each £1m went further.

But given that clubs need to spend greater amounts for incremental improvement at the top end of the table –– where there’s less scope to make a difference –– it’s no surprise to see the big four in the lower half of this particular list.

Of course, having an expensive squad doesn’t mean that players were always available; a lot of talent can sit out the campaign with injuries. It gives greater scope to choose from, but what were the most costly sides last season?

(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2593/3lineups09.jpg)
(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2249/4avcosts.jpg)
The above table includes a ‘before’ and ‘after’ for Manchester City, whose spending increased notably in the winter transfer window, adding £22m to the average cost of their Starting XI, to take it above Liverpool’s.


Wages and Wherewithal

The one big expense that is always overlooked [as backed up by the subsequently published findings of the Soccernomics book] when discussing the wealth of a club is wages. Fans will often make calculations based on transfer fees but fail to consider that a £30m player can also cost £30m in wages over a five year period.

If you don’t have as much wealth as other teams, but are expected to compete, then you need to find special men who put football before their wallet. Fernando Torres is such a player: he has a deep respect for the manager, loves the club and its fans, and has stated that he’d rather earn less money and be happy than be “greedy” and go elsewhere. Of course, he gets well remunerated for his efforts, and earned a pay rise in 2009 that didn’t extend his contract beyond 2013, but which included the option of a further year. Even so, he could have earned a lot more elsewhere, but his character and loyalty had already been seen at Atletico Madrid, where he stayed longer than many expected.

But these types of players –– world-class but humble –– are as rare as Halley’s Comet sightings coinciding with a solar eclipse and a Sean Dundee goal. If it’s hard enough for a manager to find the player he wants, it’s harder still to broker a deal that suits all parties if unable to pay the going rate.

And so Liverpool remain well adrift of the other big payers, as can be seen in the table below, which is based on the most recent set of financial figures in the public domain. Liverpool have handed out a few pay rises to players in the meantime, but the other big clubs have done the same for some of their stars. Obviously the big change since then will be Manchester City, who have handed out £100,000-a-week wages to numerous players in the past 12 months.

(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1586/5wages09.jpg)

All figures taken from each club’s most recently published accounts.

The table clearly highlights the gulf in spending power: Chelsea were paying more in annual wages for the year to 30 June 2008 than the cost of the entire Liverpool squad that ended the 2008/09 season.

One potential problem the Premiership faces is the new 50% English tax law for annual earners of more than £150,000; by comparison, Spain cut taxes in the top bracket to 23% for the first five years of employment –– originally to encourage top business executives to the country, but was expanded to footballers when David Beckham moved to Real Madrid in 2003. This will benefit the big Spanish clubs when it comes to luring the top players (therefore an issue with Liverpool’s battle to retain La Liga targets Xabi Alonso and Javier Mascherano), and also means that a club like Manchester City, where money is no object, can pay extra to overcome the deficit in a player’s pay packet. There were reports of City offering Samuel Eto’o a mind boggling £250,000 a week to try and bring him to the Eastlands from Barcelona, which highlights how far they are prepared to go.

English clubs will now have to increase players’ wages to overcome the shortfall that has occurred since their original contracts were signed –– although in the case of Fernando Torres, Steven Gerrard, Dirk Kuyt, Yossi Benayoun and Daniel Agger, that has already been addressed by Rafa Benítez.

While my research for Red Race looked at the entire Premiership last season, the main interest obviously now lies with the big six – the recently established ‘big four’, plus Manchester City and Spurs, whose spending demands greater scrutiny.

For example, when Liverpool lost to Spurs on the opening day, the Reds’ side cost £95.8m compared with the Londoners’ £135.2m. People can talk all the want about Benítez’s spending, but the fact is he has never been able to have an expensive team, because he’s often had to sell in order to buy.

Harry Redknapp is doing a very good job at White Hart Lane, but he has already been able to field a more expensive side that Benítez has managed in over five seasons.

It will be easy for the critics to blame Rafa Benítez if Liverpool drop out of the top four, or indeed, even fail to win the title, but all the evidence, in terms of wherewithal, continues to point to the fact that, in reality, Liverpool should be finishing further off the pace.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 08, 2009, 02:00:07 PM
Quote
.. is because of you and Misery..

What puerile behaviour! It has nothing to do with us in fact even 6 mths ago. this forum fluctauates between no posting and some and has done for over 18 mths.

http://www.anfieldroad.co.uk/forum/the-rest/dudetess-where-have-you-disappeared-to/

Not sure what I've done to you to get that kinda of response(I've never said anything about the Irish is this misdirected anger) so I'm left with school playground mentality.

You post nothing then basically take pot shots at me and you wonder why people don't hang around. Forums have opinions and many times you just may not agree but to resort to playground behaviour is defeatist.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 08, 2009, 02:47:02 PM
Not sure what I've done to you to get that kinda of response(I've never said anything about the Irish is this misdirected anger) so I'm left with school playground mentality.

You post nothing then basically take pot shots at me and you wonder why people don't hang around.

your primary purpose in here, seems to be the endless slagging of Rafa Benitez.

You are divisive, like centenaryjonny, in constantly refering to what you call the *pro-rafa's*

As a Newcastle United fan, I'm unclear as to why you seem to think you know so much about Liverpool FC.  Your inability to listen to Liverpool fans arguments/experiences is difficult to fathom. 

Given what has happened to Newcastle United, after sacking loads of managers across recent seaons, I'd have imagined you might have learned something from that (and not been as insistent that Rafa gets shown the door).

I enjoy reading other peoples views.....especially from other club's fans.  But I don't like seeing the level of disrespect that you are showing in here. 


Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 08, 2009, 02:53:07 PM
Show me the disrespect? You seem a touch touchy to be using a public forum...

Just because an opinion doesn't agree with yours doesn't mean disrespect.

As for comparing to us that is absurd we're not talking 5 managers in as many years but a manger who's had 6. You only have to look about there is a lot of smoke and it isn't just the sky fans.

I make no claims to knowing your history how did you get to that conclusion you seem to read a lot that isn't typed.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 08, 2009, 04:36:21 PM
Show me the disrespect? You seem a touch touchy to be using a public forum...

Just because an opinion doesn't agree with yours doesn't mean disrespect.

As for comparing to us that is absurd we're not talking 5 managers in as many years but a manger who's had 6. You only have to look about there is a lot of smoke and it isn't just the sky fans.

I make no claims to knowing your history how did you get to that conclusion you seem to read a lot that isn't typed.

look at the title of this thread - *What will it take for this fool to go?* - which you and jonny, are only to happy to stir and keep going.  If this thread isn't disrespectful then what is.

But you have been pushing this negative crap for ages.  Have you no Newcastle forum to go and reside in?

Of course the irony is that despite your endless abuse of Rafa, you and jonny throw the toys out of the pram when you yourselves get slammed.  A touch sensitive?  If you can't take it then don't give it out.

You say that there is a lot of smoke (against Rafa).  I don't see any smoke.  Look at the regulars in here (disregard jonny-come-lately).  Have you seen one who wants Rafa sacked?  I haven't. 

And in all the other forums, it's largely the same.  Only a tiny minority are against Rafa.  The vast vast majority respect his efforts.

But I still keep wondering, that as a newcastle fan, what the hell you are doing in here, showing this level of disrespect.

If I were in a newcastle forum, I'd be showing a helluva lot more respect for your club (than you are for ours).....and I'd be listening a lot more, as opposed to lecturing/pontificating.

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 08, 2009, 04:56:19 PM
You still cant show me the disrespect then? Then I tried rather nicely in my thread but got nothing but at least here it did get answered it would seem you need to disrespect you to get a reply. You use one example as disrespect. In fact if you look I have my own thread which I asked far nicely than this and agreed with a fair few comments. Was asked to clarify my questions which I did still no response.

The only person showing disrespect is your self when you don't agree with some ones opinion. Though until you dragged me into this I actually didn't think this was the case.

The reason this forum is unpopular is the kind of childish behaviour you exaggerate when the opinion goes against the grain.

As I wouldn't argue with a child I can no longer be bothered with you.

If you actually look at my postings my slagging of RB and wanting him gone are in your imagination. I asked for clarity and some understanding to which you rather rudely managed to do in this thread. I have only bought him up in the 2 relevant threads, no where else feel free to look. Not that I expect an apology from such puerile behaviour.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 08, 2009, 05:14:08 PM
The reason this forum is unpopular is the kind of childish behaviour you exaggerate when the opinion goes against the grain.

rubbish.

as someone said earlier, many people lose interest in posting, when they see the endless negativity/aggravation that you and jonny push in here.

As I wouldn't argue with a child I can no longer be bothered with you.

excellent.  And take Jonny with you.


If you actually look at my postings my slagging of RB and wanting him gone are in your imagination. I asked for clarity and some understanding to which you rather rudely managed to do in this thread. I have only bought him up in the 2 relevant threads, no where else feel free to look. Not that I expect an apology from such puerile behaviour.

you never had any interest in 'clarity'  re Rafa and the club.

Indeed, it's fascinating (and very telling), that given the extreme 'clarity' that is displayed in Paul Tomkin's detailed article (above), you haven't even touched on it.

Of course the truth would contradict your long since established view of Rafa.

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 08, 2009, 05:21:49 PM
I've comments about them but tbh with the disrespect you're showing I'm not wasting my time.

We now need the relevant figures for the top3/4 during GH's time.

Then you should have a team that should of got results this season against certain teams.....

But I'm really p**sed off with how you have viewed me. So argue with centenaryjonny you have decided that I have this xyz view yet my postings contradict your imagined ideal.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 08, 2009, 05:41:05 PM
I've comments about them but tbh with the disrespect you're showing I'm not wasting my time.

We now need the relevant figures for the top3/4 during GH's time.

Then you should have a team that should of got results this season against certain teams.....

But I'm really p**sed off with how you have viewed me. So argue with centenaryjonny you have decided that I have this xyz view yet my postings contradict your imagined ideal.

Paul Tomkin's article is very detailed.....possibly one of the most detailed you will find on the topic.

But if you want to step back a tad, and be more objective re Rafa, then fine.  I'll happily chat with you and buy you a beer.  I don't have any problem with forgiveness (re the lack of respect shown to this point).

As for continued discussions with jonny - I will soon be ignoring him again (like most in here have seemingly been doing).


Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 08, 2009, 06:11:22 PM
I've always been objective but this figure malarkey gets in the way so many times and it isn't just here.

TBH yeah those figures don't make the best but I'm not sure the ones judging him are basing it just alone on squad depth. Lets put it this way I think we both agree that Man city are paying over the odds and I suspect also in the wages. A fine example is Torres with your self Real Madrid couldn't get him(iirc). Liverpool will always have the picking of the crop OK so it won't be the top of the crop money does come into it. As a professional footballer playing for Liverpool where ever you're from has to be a pinnacle.

I have to agree that figures don't make rosy reading but that isn't just it all.(The fact in % wise your is quite high proves revenue needs to be increased). OK perhaps it might of got bench sitters sitting quieter. But who else has lets be frugal and say 80 mil pound(I'm sure we could go a bit more but age etc I think 80 is fair enough) in attack?

Lots of complaints at the moment are more related to playing style not just lack of depth. OK youth is perhaps something yet to tell, I hope for your sakes it is shaping up.

I have to admit yes the money side of it does come into it, but all honesty I feel last year was a blip, I've seen it mentioned tha Alonso upped his game to get out for a variety of reasons. I for one don't dispute letting him go it seems a lot deeper than what is rumoured. I would guess it was an amalgamation of things not a single thing.

What I see the critics disliking is that at the time it was Barry and Keane for Alonso. I've made my opinions of the front 2 I do think with Gerrard and Torres up top keeping a 2nd striker will always be difficult. For sure Keane wasn't working out but would he really of been that different with Barry?

Honestly I've tried selling Keep Rafa to my brother honestly he is no longer surprised at the passing back in play and another draw.

With out seeing how GH was backed I think the comparison to the top 4 is a little wrong, who's not say had GH had that kind of money he wouldn't of achieved the same(OK not quite, I think you where right to get rid, but I also wonder whether it now has reached RB's time)? I was under the impression he also was badly backed in the transfer market correct me if I'm wrong.

I do see it from both sides but Money isn't the be and end all, I'm sure if I look I can find someone on this forum laughing going galiticos can't buy a win. But yes I do accept if you put enough quality on it can play its self(We're a prime example).

The opinion there isn't any one better is really an unknown, it could just as easily work or not.

My honest opinion is he should be given to the end of the season then some reflection. I also think there is replacements out there but whether they are better or worse can only be surmised. After watching him I actually think RB is a good lift the team managers with a squad, my own opinion is I'm not sure of team building(Note ambiguity neither bad or good). Valencia wasn't his team, really only time will tell but if the only reason for keeping him is because there is no one better than I have to question that.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Red Jesus on December 08, 2009, 07:06:53 PM
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Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 08, 2009, 08:50:26 PM
I've always been objective but this figure malarkey gets in the way so many times and it isn't just here.

TBH yeah those figures don't make the best but I'm not sure the ones judging him are basing it just alone on squad depth. Lets put it this way I think we both agree that Man city are paying over the odds and I suspect also in the wages. A fine example is Torres with your self Real Madrid couldn't get him(iirc). Liverpool will always have the picking of the crop OK so it won't be the top of the crop money does come into it. As a professional footballer playing for Liverpool where ever you're from has to be a pinnacle.

I have to agree that figures don't make rosy reading but that isn't just it all.(The fact in % wise your is quite high proves revenue needs to be increased). OK perhaps it might of got bench sitters sitting quieter. But who else has lets be frugal and say 80 mil pound(I'm sure we could go a bit more but age etc I think 80 is fair enough) in attack?

Lots of complaints at the moment are more related to playing style not just lack of depth. OK youth is perhaps something yet to tell, I hope for your sakes it is shaping up.

I have to admit yes the money side of it does come into it, but all honesty I feel last year was a blip, I've seen it mentioned tha Alonso upped his game to get out for a variety of reasons. I for one don't dispute letting him go it seems a lot deeper than what is rumoured. I would guess it was an amalgamation of things not a single thing.

What I see the critics disliking is that at the time it was Barry and Keane for Alonso. I've made my opinions of the front 2 I do think with Gerrard and Torres up top keeping a 2nd striker will always be difficult. For sure Keane wasn't working out but would he really of been that different with Barry?

Honestly I've tried selling Keep Rafa to my brother honestly he is no longer surprised at the passing back in play and another draw.

With out seeing how GH was backed I think the comparison to the top 4 is a little wrong, who's not say had GH had that kind of money he wouldn't of achieved the same(OK not quite, I think you where right to get rid, but I also wonder whether it now has reached RB's time)? I was under the impression he also was badly backed in the transfer market correct me if I'm wrong.

I do see it from both sides but Money isn't the be and end all, I'm sure if I look I can find someone on this forum laughing going galiticos can't buy a win. But yes I do accept if you put enough quality on it can play its self(We're a prime example).

The opinion there isn't any one better is really an unknown, it could just as easily work or not.

My honest opinion is he should be given to the end of the season then some reflection. I also think there is replacements out there but whether they are better or worse can only be surmised. After watching him I actually think RB is a good lift the team managers with a squad, my own opinion is I'm not sure of team building(Note ambiguity neither bad or good). Valencia wasn't his team, really only time will tell but if the only reason for keeping him is because there is no one better than I have to question that.

I agree with you, that Man City are spending way above the rest of the Premiership, these past 12 months.

I don't agree however that when it comes to recruiting top talent, that the mere name of Liverpool wins out over wages.  Sadly, if it comes to a choice between big bucks on offer at City, Chelsea or Man Utd, then Liverpool will nearly always lose out.  Liverpool's era of dominance is long over.  It's 20 years ago since we were the top dogs in England and Europe.  The top talent of the present era would have to google (or ask their dad) to learn of the times when we ruled the roost.

THat's why it is so refreshing when you discover an exception like Torres.......who doesn't seem to look at wages as the be all and end all.

Re Barry and Keane.  Rafa said a few weeks ago that Barry was the priority that summer....with Keane then to follow.  For whatever reason (think Parry), Keane was recruited first, but then we couldn't land Barry.   Rafa said that Barry was to be on the left side of midfield....feeding Keane.   Rafa's plan was thought out.  It had an overall team balance to it.  When we didn't land Barry, the whole project went pear shaped.

Personally, I wouldn't have recruited Keane.  I'd have taken a chance possibly 5 or 6 years ago.  But the lad's best days are behind him.  I just don't think he has enough to his game.  And the transfer fee was ridiculous.

Barry is an excellent lad.  I'd have brought him in.  But the transfer fee, for someone of his age, again was very high.

In the bigger picture however, you must remember that Alonso had a great first season at Anfield.  But the season before we tried to offload him, he was disappointing.  And I have to speculate that he won't pull any trees up at Real Madrid.

We badly need a bigger stadium.....and the increased revenues that would bring in.  Houllier and Benitez have both had to make do with much lesser monies than Man Utd (or Chelsea and City in recent seasons).

Money has never been as important (in acquiring success in english football), as it is now.  1992 saw the top division breaking away, with massive tv money on offer.  And then the newly restructured European Cup, was the final nail in the competitive coffin.

It was a double whammy. 

Money doesn't talk these days.  It shouts.

And I often wonder how the vast majority of the premiership's clubs can get motivated.  Their only motivation/target in August, is to spend the season trying stay in the premiership.

And as someone who has loved the game for 40 plus years, it has never been more boring/depressing to watch.  Same old, same old (each season).   This is how it must feel in Scotland, these 50 plus years. 

PS - thanks for the video, Red Jesus.  Lots of text in it.  Nice to have also seen some goals, from across these five years.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 09, 2009, 02:28:26 PM
To be honest I think you've hidden behind the money and glossed over the other questions.

Ever since RB has been there the 2nd striker has gone missing Kuyt wasn't good enough, Bellamy wasn't good enough, Keane wan't good enough, Crouch wasn't then was. Kuyt is a phenomenal workhorse but there are a lot better players.

Then you have babel and to be honest I actually think some fans are too hard first season... First season 30 games 1433 mins(Should of been 2700) subbed off 15 times subbed on 14 times. (If these are correct http://transfermarkt.co.uk/en/spieler/16135/ryan-babel/default/2009/leistungsdaten.html) Next season 27 games 860 mins... Of course he's going to be unhappy, and be looking for first team football(if we're going into club vs country well that is a debate but I never see the clubs complain when there prices jump due to international call up)
Crouch 32 games 2146 pretty good really... 32 games 1543.. 21 games 931...

What about on paper you have more than enough to beat some of the teams, take Drebechen they should still be suffering I would imagine losing 1 nil to Liverpool was a result. Even I think some times you play negatively(Ball in box passed back to the circle), though I think I get it, it's to bring the opposing team out onto you but I'm not sure I think of RB's team as a counter attacking team. Certainly not the B plan any way.

Your defence is relative to money and the top 4 and give little more than some results in Europe which is receding not getting better. We can defend GH with the same but instead cups vs Europe.

Though remember I do think he plays the Europe game better.. I also IMO think he is proving that he is a fire fighter type of manager going on where he is now and where he has come from.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 09, 2009, 05:32:51 PM
Ever since RB has been there the 2nd striker has gone missing Kuyt wasn't good enough, Bellamy wasn't good enough, Keane wan't good enough, Crouch wasn't then was. Kuyt is a phenomenal workhorse but there are a lot better players.

I don't get it, why Kuyt is always put down.  He's supposedly, in many folks eyes, a mere workhorse.  But he's more than that.  If he gets a scoring chance, he usually takes it.  He will do whatever is asked of him, for the team.  He doesn't shirk any challenges.  He doesn't hide when times are tough or when there is work to be done.

People seem to think that during our era of dominance, across the 70s and 80s, that we had a team filled with eleven kenny dalglishs.  They tend to forget the ray kennedys, the terry mcdermott's, the sammy lees, the jimmy cases, etc.   Kuyt is a class lad.  I'm delighted that he is a red.

If you know of any better players, for the same money, do let me know.

Crouch made a mistake in leaving Anfield.  Maybe he was being offered better wages elsewhere.  Who knows.  But I couldn't figure it at the time.  And I still can't figure it.

Rafa wanted him to stay.  The lad gave us a different option.  Some defences found him impossible to mark.  And for a big lad, he had an excellent touch on the ground.  The only downside was his speed.  He was slower than a workhorse in treacle, over those first few yards.


Then you have babel and to be honest I actually think some fans are too hard first season... First season 30 games 1433 mins(Should of been 2700) subbed off 15 times subbed on 14 times. (If these are correct http://transfermarkt.co.uk/en/spieler/16135/ryan-babel/default/2009/leistungsdaten.html) Next season 27 games 860 mins... Of course he's going to be unhappy, and be looking for first team football(if we're going into club vs country well that is a debate but I never see the clubs complain when there prices jump due to international call up)
Crouch 32 games 2146 pretty good really... 32 games 1543.. 21 games 931...

See, I can't understand this.  How can you watch the same games as the rest of us and yet come to such a conclusion.  Babel is not good enough to be given a starting place in the team.  How could anyone not see that.  He can't hold the ball up.  He struggles to keep possession.  When he tries something, he invariably loses possession.  And he makes limited efforts to try and retrieve his mistakes. 

And I can't fathom this notion you have that, we somehow should be playing him, in order to allow him to play for Holland (and thus that supposedly increases his transfer value).  You have the cart before the horse.  Liverpool pay his wages.  If he doesn't perform, he doesn't play.  His world cup ambitions have sod all to do with us.

What about on paper you have more than enough to beat some of the teams, take Drebechen they should still be suffering I would imagine losing 1 nil to Liverpool was a result. Even I think some times you play negatively(Ball in box passed back to the circle), though I think I get it, it's to bring the opposing team out onto you but I'm not sure I think of RB's team as a counter attacking team. Certainly not the B plan any way.

I don't see Rafa's tactics as being negative at all.  On the contrary, he tries to push forward.  Where were you last season, when we beat Man Utd 4-1 and Real Madrid 4-0, in the same week?

Football is a about balance (between offence and defence).  And that is where Rafa is outstanding (in finding that balance).

Now if you want negativity, you need to look at Houllier's Liverpool.  Now THAT was negative.    We were going nowhere, in those final 18 months, with that madness. 


Your defence is relative to money and the top 4 and give little more than some results in Europe which is receding not getting better. We can defend GH with the same but instead cups vs Europe.
Though remember I do think he plays the Europe game better.. I also IMO think he is proving that he is a fire fighter type of manager going on where he is now and where he has come from.

where do you get this notion that Rafa is a firefighter?

Benítez guided Liverpool to victory in the UEFA Champions League in 2005.  In the following three seasons he won the FA Cup, and reached the 2007 Champions League Final.

In the league, we have been improving year on year.....and last season we managed a superb 86 points (and second place).  This season, we have had a terrible injury crisis and with the limited depth of talent in our squad, we have not had a good start to our season.

If you think Rafa is rubbish, God only knows what you make of Wenger. 

Given his limited funds (in relation to those at United and Chelsea), and his trophies, why can't you give some recognotion and praise, where it's due.

And as well as being a world-class manager, Rafa (in my opinion) is a fine human being.

I'm delighted he is at Anfield.  Long may he stay.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 09, 2009, 05:45:05 PM
Quote
See, I can't understand this.  How can you watch the same games as the rest of us and yet come to such a conclusion.  Babel is not good enough to be given a starting place in the team.  How could anyone not see that.  He can't hold the ball up.  He struggles to keep possession.  When he tries something, he invariably loses possession.  And he makes limited efforts to try and retrieve his mistakes.

The same could be said about Kuyt on his off days but he is given the chance, strangely enough if you look you'll see that Babel actually has a better gpm than Kuyt.

As for Firefighter, Valencia missed the CL 2 years running, RB comes in and wins the league and Uefa. Liverpool struggling debatable how far off the mark, but was off the mark wins CL and FA cup then hits a plateau. Not really that much of conclusion really. For sure that could change but to this moment in time that is what it looks like, if it quacks then its a duck...

We can't just talk about the last 3 months of the last season, put it into the whole picture, all 5 seasons until that is repeated it is a blip. The consistency is probably closer to fighting Arsenal for 3rd. And yes I would rate AW more he has spent even less(OK wages but that is something not related to the management)

The balance is too negative, draws might win in Europe but not a league your best season "Was undone by 11 draws".

Where have I said he is rubbish? I'm not saying that I maybe saying on the last 5 seasons and with his Valencia seasons he is looking more and more like a Firefighter than a builder.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 09, 2009, 06:24:26 PM
The same could be said about Kuyt on his off days but he is given the chance, strangely enough if you look you'll see that Babel actually has a better gpm than Kuyt.

but you miss the point entirely.  Kuyt is a team player.  He runs his guts out and will do what is asked of him, for the team.  So even if he is having an off-day, he still doesn't drop his head or fail to work hard.    Kuyt and Babel are like oil and water.  Totally different approaches to the game and the team.


As for Firefighter, Valencia missed the CL 2 years running, RB comes in and wins the league and Uefa. Liverpool struggling debatable how far off the mark, but was off the mark wins CL and FA cup then hits a plateau. Not really that much of conclusion really. For sure that could change but to this moment in time that is what it looks like, if it quacks then its a duck...

I have no idea what you are trying to say above.

Are you saying that Valencia should be winning the spanish league and qualifying for the CL every year?

You seem to have no respect for valencia winning the league.  That is a helluva an achievement.....along th elines of Aberdeen beating Rangers and Celtic to the scottish title.



We can't just talk about the last 3 months of the last season, put it into the whole picture, all 5 seasons until that is repeated it is a blip.

what are you talking about.

Rafa's points tally has been improving year on year, since he arrived at Anfield.  And last season he reached the pinnacle - with 86 points and a second place finish.

How can five years of work merely be (in your words) 'a blip'??

Beyond Chelsea and Man Utd (and we a know of their spending abilities), what other premiership club manager has a better record than that?



The balance is too negative, draws might win in Europe but not a league your best season "Was undone by 11 draws".

What do you think the purchase of the marauding right wingback, Glen Johnson, was all about.



Where have I said he is rubbish? I'm not saying that I maybe saying on the last 5 seasons and with his Valencia seasons he is looking more and more like a Firefighter than a builder.

if he has been improving his league tally of points, each year, for his 5 years......how can you construe that as being a firefighter.  It looks a helluva lot like being a builder, to me.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Red Jesus on December 09, 2009, 06:29:02 PM

Crouch made a mistake in leaving Anfield.  Maybe he was being offered better wages elsewhere.  Who knows.  But I couldn't figure it at the time.  And I still can't figure it.

Rafa wanted him to stay.  The lad gave us a different option.  Some defences found him impossible to mark.  And for a big lad, he had an excellent touch on the ground.  The only downside was his speed.  He was slower than a workhorse in treacle, over those first few yards.


sorry but i have to disagree with you 100% here DA when you say Crouch made a mistake leaving and you think he left because he was offered more money.  It is a well known and well accepted fact that Crouch left because Rafa wasn't playing him and Voronin was getting played before Crouch, and Voronin was even getting brought on as a sub before Crouch and Crouch was wanting to get in the England squad never mind just 1st team action or brought on as a sub.  In a nut shell DA Rafa put Crouch's nose out of joint and that is why he left, there was no and still is no mistake on Crouch's part.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 09, 2009, 06:48:14 PM
No I'm not saying that I'm saying is RB is fantastic maybe even the best at getting an under performing team to turn it around. Perhaps related to stat analysing "His aloof management as the media call it". But I think it becomes over critical, like a new manager coming into a work place gets production up, some improve from the criticism and some have there confidence knocked.

As for points tally seriously that doesn't reflect anything but the league as whole.

There is a far greater discrepancy between the top and bottom clubs than there probably has ever been in the past.

It is a blip Alonso had to play up to get the opportunity to leave, and not been that good 2 prior seasons. His motivation was to be offered up as a bargaining chip to enable the purchases of others. The you combine it with a rather exceptional season for Kuyt who has once again this season gone back to being Kuyt. He has to be the most inconsistent player you have. For sure last season at this moment in time can only be seen as blip. We can't talk about what may or may not happen.

Just like I can easily argue that this season is perhaps a blip, but in all honesty I think the end of the season you'll be back there fighting Arsenal for 3rd. Though just like last season was probably your best chance and likely to be your best chance for a few years. The 4th place fighters have there best chance to grab it but in all honesty I don't think any of the other contenders will really be there at the end of the season.

Points don't = places, just like beating the top 4 doesn't mean you win. Unless I'm mistaken Manu had a miserable last year against the 4. every season under RB you have blips in forms, month - 6 weeks of it going missing.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 09, 2009, 07:37:48 PM
No I'm not saying that I'm saying is RB is fantastic maybe even the best at getting an under performing team to turn it around. Perhaps related to stat analysing "His aloof management as the media call it". But I think it becomes over critical, like a new manager coming into a work place gets production up, some improve from the criticism and some have there confidence knocked.

?

At times your sentences seem to be just randomly word generated.  There is no rhyme or reason to a lot of the sentences.

You throw in above, out of left field, some notion that we should have stats analysing some supposed media that call his management style 'aloof'      WTF are you on about.

The premiership stats prove that we have been improving, points wise each year, across Rafa's five seasons in charge.

And yet you claim this five year thing is just a blip......and that Benitez is just a short term firefighter.

I'm sorry, but large sections of your posts make little sense whatsoever.

But you never acknowledge the data (be it the relatively limited budget Liverpool have to work with, or the success that Rafa has had at Anfield).


As for points tally seriously that doesn't reflect anything but the league as whole.

?

bizarre analysis.


It is a blip Alonso had to play up to get the opportunity to leave

man, serious question, are you on drugs?

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 09, 2009, 08:06:38 PM
Points doesn't = places,
points > the opposition points = places...

But I see no reason to continue this, it is going some where unpleasant.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, it is a perfectly valid statement
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 10, 2009, 12:23:19 PM
Points doesn't = places,
points > the opposition points = places...

But I see no reason to continue this, it is going some where unpleasant.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, it is a perfectly valid statement

Trust me, you have made the right decision!!

It seems that if you point out FACTS, or say anything TRUTHFULL about RB, then this clown will just ignore it and throw the whole 'you're not a true fan' at you.  It happened to me, as I was told by an Irish man living in USA that I was not a true fan, despite me having a season ticket for the past 17 years, obviously he knows best from the comfort of his arm chair!

DUDE

You mention the United game, and Madrid as proof that RB is not negative. Fair enough, however, on closer inspection, the four goals against Utd, were, 1 penalty, 1 free kick, 1 hoof at the end, and an awful error from Vidic with only Torres in the Utd half!  Now its great that we took our chances, however, the goals were not the result of our free flowing attacking play, they were set pieces, and an error. 

So if you are using the high scoring games (5-0 against villa came from 2 penalties, a free kick, a hoof, and a normal goal) as proof of attacking play, then surely the low scoring games are proof of negative play?  Or does it not work like that in your world?  The games were we failed to score more than 1 goal, or even at all, and this failure led to a loss of points are listed below:

Aston Villa A 0-0 dropped 2 points
Stoke City H 0-0 dropped 2 points
Spurs A 1-2 dropped 3 points
Fulham H 0-0 dropped 2 points
West Ham H 0-0 dropped 2 points
Arsenal A 1-1 dropped 2 points
Stoke City A 0-0 dropped 2 points
Everton H 1-1 dropped 2 points
Wigan Athletic A 1-1 dropped 2 points
Man City H 1-1 dropped 2 points
Middlesborough A 0-2 dropped 2 points

Now thats 23 points dropped by playing negative football, even by your own examples!  Now every team is going to drop points, tey will have a shock defeat, they will have an off day, but this is too many points to drop to such poor teams.  Ths is not including otherpoints dropped where more than one goal was scored, eg: Hull City H 2-2.  It is simply to show how his negative tactics arecosting us points.  Given that every team has off days, lets say that we SHOULD have picked up only HALF of the points dropped BY SCORING ONE GOAL OR LESS.  We would have an extra 11 or 12 points, meaningw win the league by 8 or 9 POINTS, or with 3 GAMES TO GO!!!  So its all well and good getting a couple of good results against United, but if you then drop points to teams who are newly promoted, or that get relegated, its pointless!!!

Negative manager, negative tactics, one striker at home is a joke.  Hoofing the ball up for Torres to sprint after isnt a game plan, its the reason that he kees getting muscle strains and tears. Is it a coinsidence that since RB took over both Gerrard and Torres, his two key players are ALWAYS injured with pulls and strains from trying to rescue his useless team and being played up front with no help?  I think not!



 
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 10, 2009, 08:41:19 PM
It seems that if you point out FACTS, or say anything TRUTHFULL about RB, then this clown will just ignore it and throw the whole 'you're not a true fan' at you. 

why do you ignore all the facts, and keep changing the topic when snookered?

Let's ignore your new slight of hand (changing the topic to Rafa's supposed 'negativity').  And instead let's finish dealing with your last previous big pile of nonsense.

Paul Tomkin's article (posted a few days ago in this thread) was probably the most detailed article on your last issue raised here re Rafa's budget/performance.

Why have you ignored it?

I guess you have ignored it because it makes your entire argument look ridiculous.

You hate Rafa, well that's your problem.  But let's not pretend your hatred has some basis in footballing fact.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Irish_Mark on December 10, 2009, 10:06:11 PM
Aston Villa A 0-0 dropped 2 points
Stoke City H 0-0 dropped 2 point
Spurs A 1-2 dropped 3 points
Fulham H 0-0 dropped 2 points
West Ham H 0-0 dropped 2 points
Arsenal A 1-1 dropped 2 points
Stoke City A 0-0 dropped 2 points
Everton H 1-1 dropped 2 points
Wigan Athletic A 1-1 dropped 2 points
Man City H 1-1 dropped 2 points
Middlesborough A 0-2 dropped 2 points

Now thats 23 points dropped by playing negative football, even by your own examples!  Now every team is going to drop points, tey will have a shock defeat, they will have an off day, but this is too many points to drop to such poor teams.  Ths is not including otherpoints dropped where more than one goal was scored, eg: Hull City H 2-2.  It is simply to show how his negative tactics arecosting us points.  Given that every team has off days, lets say that we SHOULD have picked up only HALF of the points dropped BY SCORING ONE GOAL OR LESS.  We would have an extra 11 or 12 points, meaningw win the league by 8 or 9 POINTS, or with 3 GAMES TO GO!!!  So its all well and good getting a couple of good results against United, but if you then drop points to teams who are newly promoted, or that get relegated, its pointless!!!

Negative manager, negative tactics, one striker at home is a joke.  Hoofing the ball up for Torres to sprint after isnt a game plan, its the reason that he kees getting muscle strains and tears. Is it a coinsidence that since RB took over both Gerrard and Torres, his two key players are ALWAYS injured with pulls and strains from trying to rescue his useless team and being played up front with no help?  I think not!



 

Spurs A 2-1. One of our best performances of the season. Played great stuff at times. Lost to an own goal and a rebound in last minute.
Stoke H 0-0. Goal disallowed in first few mins, pressed them for remainder and couldn't grab the crucial goal.
Arsenal A 1-1. Came from behind at the Emirates. Good result, I don't see the problem.
Hull H 2-2. Came from 2-0 down, hit the post and attacked hard in second half, again not able to grab the crucial goal.

None of these results due to 'negative' tactics. Granted one or two, such as 1-1 v Everton, were. We got our highest ever points tally in the EPL last year. Would have won the league any other year prior.



Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 11, 2009, 12:49:36 PM
why do you ignore all the facts, and keep changing the topic when snookered?

Let's ignore your new slight of hand (changing the topic to Rafa's supposed 'negativity').  And instead let's finish dealing with your last previous big pile of nonsense.

Paul Tomkin's article (posted a few days ago in this thread) was probably the most detailed article on your last issue raised here re Rafa's budget/performance.

Why have you ignored it?

I guess you have ignored it because it makes your entire argument look ridiculous.

You hate Rafa, well that's your problem.  But let's not pretend your hatred has some basis in footballing fact.


I was pointing out that RB has achieved LESS than GH, when given DOUBLE the money to spend!  His negative tactics, as I have just pointed out merely back up my case that the club is going nowhere, and in a couple of years when Gerrard and Cara retire then what?

As for Paul Tomkins, he has a regular slot on the Liverpool Website, now do you think he would keep this slot if he kept slagging Rafa off, or telling it how it is?  Of course not, so please dont take your information from someone who is far from unbiased!!!!

You talk about finance, you hide behind it, yet you seem not to know the facts, so let me enlighten you, and please just counter this without insult, or made up facts:

Rafa has:

BROKEN THE CLUB TRANSFER RECORD FOR ALL 10 OUTFIELD POSITIONS, SOMETIMES MORE THAN ONCE

SPENT MORE NETT THAN ANY MANAGER IN THE COUNTRY OTHER THAN MARK HUGHES

BOUGHT 76 PLAYERS, PAID 76 AGENTS FEES

WHEN CARRA AND GERRARD (WHO WERE ALREADY THERE) ARE TAKEN OUT THAT AVERAGES AT 9 PLAYERS FOR EVERY OUTFIELD POSITION

HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN THE PAST 4 MANAGERS PUT TOGETHER

HAS SPENT MORE NETT THAN UNITED OVER THE SAME PERIOD

So please tell me again how Rafa has no money and hasnt been backed, or how everyone else has more money than him, and please try and give me your opinon rather than someone who writes for Liverpool and has to put a positive spin on everything.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 11, 2009, 03:31:40 PM
Quote
We got our highest ever points tally in the EPL last year. Would have won the league any other year prior.

What year would that of been... 6 years ago

07-08 Manu 87 points 6  draws 5 losses - Liverpool 13 draws 4 losses
06-07 Manu 89 points 5  draws 5 losses -    " "      8    " "   10   " "
05-06 Chelsea 91 " "   5  draws 4 losses -    " "      7    " "   6    " "
04-05 Chelsea 95 " "   8  draws 1 losses -    " "      7    " "   14   " "
RB not here
03-04 Arsenal 90 " "   12 draws 0 losses -    " "      12   " "  10   " "
02-03 Manu   83 " "    8  draws 5 losses -    " "      10   " "  10   " "

Prior to these seasons 80ish was enough which highlights my point that it reflects the league as whole. Think there is one or 2 plus 86. 01-02 being one...

Then your best year was 11 draws 2 loses so the last 2 seasons have been

11 draws 2 losses proceeded by 13 draws 4 losses
 
Just looking at that snapshot the only team to win with double figure draws was Arsenal generally the figure is closer to 5 of each your closest was the 05-06 2nd season in.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 12, 2009, 01:49:59 AM
I was pointing out that RB has achieved LESS than GH, when given DOUBLE the money to spend!
It was great to win a league cup, fa cup and uefa cup under Houllier...but heck, those trophies don´t come close to Rafa´s success in the Champions League.
 
As for Paul Tomkins, he has a regular slot on the Liverpool Website, now do you think he would keep this slot if he kept slagging Rafa off, or telling it how it is?  Of course not, so please dont take your information from someone who is far from unbiased!!!!
Tomkins uses reliable data and cites his sources.
 
BROKEN THE CLUB TRANSFER RECORD FOR ALL 10 OUTFIELD POSITIONS, SOMETIMES MORE THAN ONCE
that means fig-leaf all.  Football inflation has been massive in recent years.
 
For example, three and a half million was an english transfer record for Alan Shearer when he moved from Southampton to Blackburn. Nowadays, three and a half million would buy you fig-leaf all.
 
SPENT MORE NETT THAN ANY MANAGER IN THE COUNTRY OTHER THAN MARK HUGHES
source?
 
HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN THE PAST 4 MANAGERS PUT TOGETHER
source?
 
PS - have you included football inflation in such a statement?  Have you included the fact that Rafa´s regular qualification each season for the CL meant he potentially had more funds to spend (than if he had not qualified).
 
Your statement is meaningless otherwise.
 
HAS SPENT MORE NETT THAN UNITED OVER THE SAME PERIOD
source?
 
So please tell me again how Rafa has no money and hasnt been backed, or how everyone else has more money than him, and please try and give me your opinon rather than someone who writes for Liverpool and has to put a positive spin on everything.
Paul Tomkins quotes sources for his data.......you do not.
 
Tomkins analysis is far far more detailed than your own allegations.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Redman on December 14, 2009, 04:09:52 PM
I have to agree with The Dude, the OP is Pope Pumparse in disguise, his rantings about Rafa and his love of all things Hulahoop shines thru. Hi Pope, are you not getting enough attention on the Liverpool newsgroup these days? Too many people sick of your rantings and putting you to the sword, it's a shame you've found this board looks like we're in for a stormy time unless you decide to FOAD.

Redman
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: harry on December 15, 2009, 05:39:40 PM
I am no Rafa fan but since he has guaranteed that we will finish in Top Four, let's wait till May before we decide whether he should go. 

We are playing Wigan on wed and portsmouth on weekend.  I don't think we will lose again but my worry is that we might end up with a draw in one of the games.  The loss of confidence is a temporary one, I am not worried about tat.  I am worried abt my lack of cutting edge...something we have been plagued with since the days of Roy Evans, Souness and made worse by GH.  Under Benitez, that attacking threat has improved a little but the balance of the team is still tilted too much to the defensive side. 

We have problems breaking down tight defences....that is a fact even pro-Rafa fans have to agree.  It is disappointing that we never have any managers who are more attack-minded in the last 15 years or so.  If we have, I am sure we would have won some titles along the way....sign...


Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 15, 2009, 06:17:01 PM
I have to agree with The Dude, the OP is Pope Pumparse in disguise, his rantings about Rafa and his love of all things Hulahoop shines thru. Hi Pope, are you not getting enough attention on the Liverpool newsgroup these days? Too many people sick of your rantings and putting you to the sword, it's a shame you've found this board looks like we're in for a stormy time unless you decide to FOAD.

Redman

totally agree, redman,

This character 'centenaryjonny'  is the infamous Pope Pompous from the Liverpool usenet group.

To fill others in.  Pompous Pope ruined that other forum, with his endless rants and flames.  The bloke was nutty to start with.  But with close to 15 years of posts, he got even nuttier.  His ramblings and madness have made him a figure of fun and ridicule.

And in case you are wondering.  No, he hasn't held a season ticket for 17 years at Anfield.  And his anti-Irish rants in here, were merely an attempt to hide the fact that he lives in the south of Ireland.

The bloke is nuttier than a Cadbury's Fruit & Nut.

If the owner of this forum doesn't step in and ban his IP (via the forum's admin panel), then he will ruin this place and folks will leave.  I suspect 'Harry' is his other persona.  And I'm also pretty dubious re this Misery poster.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 17, 2009, 04:32:54 PM
totally agree, redman,

This character 'centenaryjonny'  is the infamous Pope Pompous from the Liverpool usenet group.

To fill others in.  Pompous Pope ruined that other forum, with his endless rants and flames.  The bloke was nutty to start with.  But with close to 15 years of posts, he got even nuttier.  His ramblings and madness have made him a figure of fun and ridicule.

And in case you are wondering.  No, he hasn't held a season ticket for 17 years at Anfield.  And his anti-Irish rants in here, were merely an attempt to hide the fact that he lives in the south of Ireland.

The bloke is nuttier than a Cadbury's Fruit & Nut.

If the owner of this forum doesn't step in and ban his IP (via the forum's admin panel), then he will ruin this place and folks will leave.  I suspect 'Harry' is his other persona.  And I'm also pretty dubious re this Misery poster.

I must admit my complete suprise that having the bare faced cheek to actually point out a few facts about Sir Rafa and his team, that instead of well thought out arguments to the contrary I am instead met by simple insults and discussions about who I 'really am'!

Just for those of you (and I'm hoping there is one somewhere) who actually go to Anfield you will see me in my usual seat Row 21, Seat 53 of the Lower Centenary Stand, or if you cant count, simply look at the 'L' for 'LFC' on the seats, and count down 3 rows and one seat to the left and you will see me, as contrary to the beliefs of someone who lives in the USA I do actually have a season ticket, and have indeed had it for the past 17 years, so please forgive me if I take what someone who has probably never been to Anfield with a bit of a pinch of salt!

As for the 'anti irish rants', I would hardly call them rants, what does annoy me though is that the only people who seem in favour of Rafa seem to be Irish, so I suppose guilt by association is fair to say.  On phone ins accross the land, and on LFCTV itself I am sick of being told to blindly follow a man who is ruining our club and has turned us into a laughing stock.

On the walk back to the car last night (after the match which I obviously didnt go to!) the only people happy with last nights game had irish voices.  All the local voices were saying what an awful match it was and how Rafa doesnt have a clue.  The other reason I dislike the Irish contingent (again as a whole, not individually) is quite a petty reason, but I feel an important one.  At the start of the game (which again, I obviously dont go to) when we sing YNWA, the Anfield road end claps before the song is finished.  Why this is I have no idea, but it happens at every game and drowns out the kop who actually know the words.  So please, if you are one of the offenders, wait till the end to clap.

As for this ridiculous 'who is he' mystery, during a run of 4 wins in 16 games when we have been dumped out of the champions league by two teams who wont win it, when we have thrown away leads in 2 out of our last 3 home games to lose.  When last night was our first home win since October, when we sit closer to relegation than the top, is there really nothing better for you 'die-hards' to talk about?  Do you really have no other concerns about your club other than the identity of a fan?  Or is it simply because you have no clue and someone has dared to question your blind faith with a few facts that you cant combat?

Like Ive said though if you question my support, please come and ask me about it on boxing day against Wolves.  Row 21, Seat 53 Lower Centenary.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Red Jesus on December 17, 2009, 05:04:15 PM
I am going to throw my pennies worth into this agrument now, although it is more about people giving a view than Rafa staying or going. 

I have read posts by centuryjonny and see nothing wrong with his posts, i actually find them quite interesting to read as they are for good debate.  This site is very quiet and the reason for this maybe because everyone that comes on this site are just yes men and agree with everything everyone else says and that makes it a very boring site to visit and therefore no one bothers to visit.  There are LFC forums which are full of locals and they have huge discussions about whether Rafa should stay or go but people don't throw their toys out of their pram and tell somebody else to leave if an agrument is put forward that they don't like which is what Dude abides seems to be doing. 

I have also looked at Bands posts and not found them anymore than intuitive and by that I mean someone wanting to learn the mindset of the fans and the workings of the club from a fans perspective and to do that you have to sometimes ask probing questions which is what he has done and some people have took that the wrong way.  I know that the people who are telling the site owner to leave don't actually own the site so I believe if they have a problem with topial debate then they should leave, although I dont agree with the anti Irish sentiment comming from jonny.  I do know that a lot of locals get annoyed with the behaviour of ott's and they are entitled to their opinion but I think it is very wrong of jonny to type cast all Irish as giulty of this and after all they do bring money into the club.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Red Jesus on December 17, 2009, 05:18:20 PM
I had to modify this as the original post had an error in which I couldn't alter.

I am going to throw my pennies worth into this agrument now, although it is more about people giving a view than Rafa staying or going. 

I have read posts by centuryjonny and see nothing wrong with his posts, i actually find them quite interesting to read as they are for good debate.  This site is very quiet and the reason for this maybe because everyone that comes on this site are just yes men and agree with everything everyone else says and that makes it a very boring site to visit and therefore no one bothers to visit.  There are LFC forums which are full of locals and they have huge discussions about whether Rafa should stay or go but people don't throw their toys out of their pram and tell somebody else to leave if an agrument is put forward that they don't like which is what Dude abides seems to be doing. 

I have also looked at Bands posts and not found them anymore than intuitive and by that I mean someone wanting to learn the mindset of the fans and the workings of the club from a fans perspective and to do that you have to sometimes ask probing questions which is what he has done and some people have took that the wrong way.  I know that the people who are telling people to leave the site don't actually own the site so I believe if they have a problem with topial debate then they should leave, although I dont agree with the anti Irish sentiment comming from jonny.  I do know that a lot of locals get annoyed with the behaviour of ott's and they are entitled to their opinion but I think it is very wrong of jonny to type cast all Irish as giulty of this and after all they do bring money into the club.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 17, 2009, 05:25:40 PM
I am going to throw my pennies worth into this agrument now, although it is more about people giving a view than Rafa staying or going. 

I have read posts by centuryjonny and see nothing wrong with his posts, i actually find them quite interesting to read as they are for good debate.  This site is very quiet and the reason for this maybe because everyone that comes on this site are just yes men and agree with everything everyone else says and that makes it a very boring site to visit and therefore no one bothers to visit.  There are LFC forums which are full of locals and they have huge discussions about whether Rafa should stay or go but people don't throw their toys out of their pram and tell somebody else to leave if an agrument is put forward that they don't like which is what Dude abides seems to be doing. 

I have also looked at Bands posts and not found them anymore than intuitive and by that I mean someone wanting to learn the mindset of the fans and the workings of the club from a fans perspective and to do that you have to sometimes ask probing questions which is what he has done and some people have took that the wrong way.  I know that the people who are telling the site owner to leave don't actually own the site so I believe if they have a problem with topial debate then they should leave, although I dont agree with the anti Irish sentiment comming from jonny.  I do know that a lot of locals get annoyed with the behaviour of ott's and they are entitled to their opinion but I think it is very wrong of jonny to type cast all Irish as giulty of this and after all they do bring money into the club.

You are a brave man, you will now be told to shut up and that you are not a true fan!!!!!!!

As for the Irish stuff.  I appologise for any offence caused to genuine fans who support our club!  The whole point of a forum, a phone in, etc is for people to air their views, to have a discussion, but unfortunatly it seems that some people, and I would say the vast majority of these are Irish, cannot form an argument, they simply turn to name calling if you disagree with them!

What is the problem with forming an argument based around fact not sentiment and then someone else forming a counter argument based around fact?

It seems that this is impossible for the rafa fans to do, and instead like their manager, simply look for excuses or change the subject.

I have no probelm with the Irish, just people who blindly follow rafa and shout down any point to the contrary with nothing to back it up, but it does seem that a lot are Irish

So back to the original point, as for DUDE especially, can someone tell me why RB should keep his £4m a year job when he has spent TWICE as much and won HALF as much as the man he replaced?
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: wittsy on December 17, 2009, 09:32:41 PM
The problem I have is that we have some on here who want rid of Rafa but refuse to except that not everyone does. I have days when I think "enoughs enough, lets get rid of him" but generally I back him yet when the debate about why was GH sacked and Rafa not it seems that the debate is one sided because the anti Rafa backers just don't want to listen or accept that others have a didfferent view. It's seems that every discussion is spoilt by someone shouts "SACK RAFA!!" instead about talking about whats going on on the pitch..

I can see why some want him gone but I don't keep shouting "Keep him keep him" in ever post..

JMHO  Jas
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 17, 2009, 09:36:06 PM
Wittsy don't mean to be rude or add fuel to the embers but where? There is 2 threads in regards to the subject and only one is alive. Well at least until recently excluding the we have enough thread...

I think some views are being distorted by other peoples opinions I'm glad some one took the time to read my posts and actually understood my view point. Thank you Red Jesus


Edit
Find a quote for me saying I want rid? Shouldn't be hard Dude is adamant it's there
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 18, 2009, 11:38:10 AM
The problem I have is that we have some on here who want rid of Rafa but refuse to except that not everyone does. I have days when I think "enoughs enough, lets get rid of him" but generally I back him yet when the debate about why was GH sacked and Rafa not it seems that the debate is one sided because the anti Rafa backers just don't want to listen or accept that others have a didfferent view. It's seems that every discussion is spoilt by someone shouts "SACK RAFA!!" instead about talking about whats going on on the pitch..

I can see why some want him gone but I don't keep shouting "Keep him keep him" in ever post..

JMHO  Jas
Wittsy, fair enough view point.

All I am trying to establish is a different viewpoint to my own, as I cant see us going anywhere under Benitez.

I am not a fan of sacking managers, but there comes a point when you have to look to the fututre and see if you can improve things by changing it.  I personally feel that this is the case.  Although results are the most important thing in football, my argument against Rafa isnt based solely on results, but where the club is on the whole.

It seems there are people queuing up to make excuses for Rafa, over the past few years both Rafa and his followers have come out with a host of ridiculous statements, infact the other day Rafa actually said that he 'guaranteed we would finish in the top 4!' Now there are two things wrong with this statement.  Firstly, of course there are no guarantees in football, least of all how you will finish after 38 games.  If there were guarantees in football, surely we wouldnt have already lost points to the likes of Sunderland, Fulham, Blackburn etc?! 

Secondly, why in December, with 5 MONTHS of the season to go is he even talking about the top 4?  Can you imagine Fergie talking about finishing 4th in December?  RB is a negative manager, and has already accepted defeat this season, but what message does that give to his team?  Lets hope that if we do get fourth we dont get the mighty Lyon or Fiorentina in our group again!!

Our style of football is a joke.  If you look at our stongest 11 and formation, we have 4 defenders, 4 holding midfielders, Dirk who is there to track back and 'work hard' and if we are lucky an attacker on the left, and not another full back like often happens.  Then Gerrard (a midfielder, who is often in his own half) and Torres.  So even classing Gerrard as an attacker, we have a maximum of 3 attacking players on the pitch out of 10!  This is the system regardless of who we are playing, what the score is etc etc.  Or to put it another way 7 out of 10 defensive players!!

Now before the RB fans start crowing about being the top scorers last season, what did it win us?  We were top scorers because at the end of the season we had some high scoring games, we lost the league because we FAILED to score in 6 games last season, or to put it another way, threw away 12 points by not being able to score a goal. This is not to mention the games where we only score once and dropped points.  As Ive said before in this thread we threw away/dropped 23 POINTS BY SCORING ONE GOAL OR LESS last season.  So putting 4 past Blackburn when they are playing a defender (Samba) up front on his own still only gets you 3 points.

You only have to look at recent games to see this backed up perfectly. 

Wigan (H) go 1-0 up after 9 minutes, then sit back and try a defend it for the next 81 minutes AGAINST WIGAN WHO RECENTLY LOST 9-1 AND HAVE THE WORST DEFENCE IN THE LEAGUE! This game could have easily gone the other way had Scotland not hit the bar when it was still 1-0 and Wigan were on top

Arsenal (H) go 1-0 up just before half time, the perfect time to score, have them on the ropes.  Come out second half after another great teamtalk and dont get near them in the second half.  Lose 2-1

Fiorentina (H) go 1-0 against a no-mark italian team with nothing to play for, then unable to kill them off, start playing the ball backwards and sure enough we lose 2-1

These are the past 3 home games, I didnt mention the sterling 0-0 display against Blackburn in between, but hey, Blackburn are a good team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Negative tactics, formations and stupid defending of set pieces are the main part of a Rafa game plan.  He has said himself that he first sets out not to lose, and then see if they can win.  Now if you dont lose, you are guaranteed 1 point, if you win, you are guaranteed 3, so as man who likes to guarantee things, why not try to win?

His subs are as negative as the rest of him.  Against Arsenal, we had 4 defenders on the bench!  So when you add the sub GK too, thats 5 out 7 Defenders that he can use to change the game.  Against Arsenal to try to change the game, he subbed Johnson for Degan, or swapped a good RB for a bad one.  Against City at home, to try to change the game as we were dropping another 2 points from a game we were winning in he brought on Aurelio for Insua, or swapped an average left back for another!  Now how can these changes possible offer more attacking threat, how can they help us score?

The first sub of the game, again regardless of score or opponent is to sub the left winger, usually Riera or Yossi.  This happens in 9 out of 10 games, check the stats if you want.  Now this shows that he doesnt look at the game and merely sticks to his plan, or to put it another way, doesnt have a clue!

So again, my plea is there can ANYONE explain why Rafa is being paid £4m a year to do a worse job (spent TWICE as much, won HALF as much) than the man he replaced?

Anyone??????????
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Kopite999 on December 18, 2009, 12:10:31 PM
This website is quickly turning into a bbc five live phone in :o :o :o
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 18, 2009, 12:38:36 PM
This website is quickly turning into a bbc five live phone in :o :o :o

Thats it?

Thats your comment?

You Rafa fans are doing nothing but back up my argument that there is NO REASON for him to have a job.

What is wrong with you?  Do you have no opinion? Do you not care? What is it? 

GIVE ME REASONS, NOT JUST INSULTS!
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Kopite999 on December 18, 2009, 01:19:50 PM
Your now trying to seperate fans who support the club and Rafa supporters as if there two different things. I'm a supporter of the club and Rafa is the manager. Therefore i support him. Its not rocket science. I believe you should stick with your manager especially considering this is the first real blip we've had. I'd prefer to wait until the end of the season and see where we are then. Rafa's not untouchable and shouldnt be immune from criticism. But if we finish top4 and get a trip to Wembley and/or Hamburg, i would consider that a half decent season.If he then fails to make an impact in the league and champions league nxt season, then maybe its time to look elsewhere. But i'm proud of the fact we give our managers time to turn things around.I'd rather do that than follow the example of Newcastle

If Rafa was sacked tomorrow who would you get in? Please be realistic. I've heard people say Mourinho! But would he really go to a club where his NET spend would be zero? 
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 18, 2009, 01:26:41 PM
Now I'll try to not retort with BBC 5 comments ;)

If you'll play I'll have a crude attempt at actually making the point they struggle with.

Now the question you pose is why pay Rafa 4 mil when he does a worse job than GH..
I think this a little unfair the question is Why should he be given more time? which is easier to answer.

But lets first try, now if we take the Arsenal match team...
Reina
Magic Cara Agger Aurelio
Masch Aquilani
kuyt Gerrard Benayoun
Torres

Now with an exception of a couple of players some already there, the odd one i.e Agger vs Hypia surely that is an upgrade from GH's team? Then you have Ngog/Reira

Now some arguments are based on so many transfers but how many are reserves or youth? For sure he's made mistakes as has every manager. But the last 2 seasons he hasn't been given a huge amount of funds...

Glen Johnson     £17,500,000                     Sami Hyypiä     Free           
Chris Mavinga    Signed                          Jack Hobbs    Signed         
Stephen Sama    Free                            Paul Anderson    £250,000         
Alberto Aquilani    £17,000,000             Sebastian Leto    £1,300,000         
Sotirios Kyrgiakos    £1,500,000              Astrit Ajdarevic    Free         
                                                Jermaine Pennant    Free    
                                                Alvaro Arbeloa    £3,500,000
                                                Xabi Alonso    £30,000,000
                                                Shane O Connor    Free         
                                                Adam Hammill    Signed         
Total    £36,000,000                      £35,050,000                        £950,000

Philipp Degen     Free                    Anthony Le Tallec     Undisclosed           
Andrea Dossena    £7,000,000              Harry Kewell    Free         
Diego Cavalieri    £3,500,000      Peter Crouch    £10,000,000         
Robbie Keane    £19,000,000             Danny Gutherie    £2,500,000         
Vitor Flora    Signed                 John Arne Riise    £4,000,000         
Alberto Riera    £8,000,000              Scott Carson    £3,250,000         
David Ngog    £1,500,000              Steve Finnan    £1,000,000         
                          Robbie Keane    £12,000,000
Total    £39,000,000              £32,750,000                    £6,250,000

Now that is little over 7 Million is this enough for a team contending for 4th place?
Then if we factor wages in as well

Chelsea 149Mil
Manu 121Mil
Arsenal 101mil
Liverpool 89Mil

So recently he hasn't been given the funds and the wage bill doesn't match Arsenal. So it some where inbetween Arsenal and Manu doesn't have the funds to buy willy nally and doesn't have the wages to offer to prospects. So his mistakes stand out more.

Now there is arguments for he is over achieving in the recent seasons so why do you feel he isn't over acheiving? Now we touched youth earlier so lets expand on this a little now Rafa wasn't happy with the youth setup(For sure you can criticise him for this but hindsight and all that)so ... Now he has in place what he feels is needed shouldn't he be given time to see if it bears fruit?

OK so I see some arguments seem to be placed around the style now(Here I will struggle but lets try), now you highlight several points from the Wigan match and sticking to plan but unless I'm mistaken didn't it start 4-4-2 no lone striker there, and also change it to 4-5-1? You also mention the defensive midfield now I accept there is some truth in that, but really OK mistakes have been made but in the short term(Lucas vs a temp signing) is Aquilani defensive? But if I'm honest I'm not going to defend him or condemn him for points lost this season or gained last season. The fact you've lost your midfield general has an impact now we can assign blame but lets just call it a mutual leaving in the end. So should Rafa not be given time to find his new midfield general? OK so you don't like his style but has style won Arsenal anything, didn't Mourhino get sacked for "style" reasons? What I'm trying to highlight is with the means given and certainly taking into account the last couple of seasons on the transfer market what else can he do, great attacking pacy scorers cost more than your Liverpool records?

Then the crux of it all what ever way it is dressed Rafa has done more in Europe than GH ever did as this is the money maker should he not continue? As it looks like revenue is a struggling point for Liverpool at the moment, with the owners mismanagement. In to my final bit can you trust your owners to appoint the correct person? The last person rumoured was Jurgen "bloody" Klinsmen. Coming from a club that has seen Souness and BS disasters mixed with other temps some worse some better, I ask is the road you wish to take or perhaps shouldn't you keep Rafa if for no other reason than stability? If you change it will also mean a huge change right through the club structure, could the club take that?
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 18, 2009, 02:27:07 PM
@ Koppite99

Some of those are cop outs and BBC 5 radio answers...

Who would you get in if the requirement is 2 league titles from the big 3 and Europa/Uefa cup holder, not the just the aspirations of Mourinho I'm pretty sure in that field it opens it up quite a bit not even a CL winner needed. It is an unknown why does it always get defended with who, you can't say it won't or will work for all we know MON could turn up and rule the world with you.

TBH I actually would disagree about Mourinho and could see how the challenge would appeal to his ego... Whether he got beyond the interview I wouldn't like to speculate.

Then what is the comparison with Newcastle I see this all the time, how about comparing to Chelsea. Or probably half a dozen other teams that don't give there manager 6 seasons(Christ you compared it to 11 in 5 years that isn't a comparison, I see 7 on wiki but suspect they have some interim managers missing)
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Redman on December 18, 2009, 02:32:26 PM
Couldn't be arsed quoting all of Pope's ranting from a few posts up but you ask why Rafa is still in charge, well I have no idea, best you write to Hicks or Gillete and ask. As for all the points you've levelled at Rafa, everyone of them can be levelled at Hulahoop when he was in charge. Let's also not forget it was Phil Thompson who was in charge when we won our highest ever points tally in the Premiership at that time until Rafa beat it last season. Something most of the Hulahoop fans really couldn't resist rubbing in the face of Rafa supporters. Dire negative football! well you surely must remember some of the utter crap I had to watch under Hulahoop, sitting back defending 1 goal leads, losing to the so called smaller and weaker sides in the league at the time, it happens to every manager at some point, get over it. Move on with your life, Hulahoops been gone 6 long years now, stop crying and get behind the team even if you don't support Rafa.

Redman
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Redman on December 18, 2009, 02:36:25 PM
Now I'll try to not retort with BBC 5 comments ;)

If you'll play I'll have a crude attempt at actually making the point they struggle with.

My God, why the f**k is a so called Newcastle fan analysing Rafa under a microscope? Have you nothing better to do with your time? Can't you go analyse Newcastle/Chelski/Manure/Arsenal? Or are you another of Pope Pumparse's aliases?

Redman
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 18, 2009, 02:44:04 PM
I can't win either way can I ;) this site is clearly unfriendly maybe your the dude abides puppet.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Kopite999 on December 18, 2009, 03:06:32 PM
@ BandW Misery

Didnt it take your fans 4-5 months to turn on Big Sam with the 'u dont know what ya doing' chants? And wasnt that game 5-1.Not bad for a defensive team. In my opinion you wouldnt be where you are now if your fans had patience.Things arent always greener on the otherside
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 18, 2009, 03:16:48 PM
I agree totally.. Sadly the Geordies don't I think there is 2 sides to this the fans that just want to win and the fans that want entertainment. I think in respect for NUFC entertainment will always come first, well at least until there is some good structure behind the club. Whether the same should be applied to your selves I'm not going to comment. I'm probably in the minority or seeing things more objectively but I've seen glimpses of some really nice pressure football from Liverpool this season.

I also feel there is a lot of justification for keeping Rafa if for no other reason than stability.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Kopite999 on December 18, 2009, 03:23:45 PM
I havent seen to much quality this year due to players in and out of the side with injuries, but last season there were some machine like performances that resembled the team Rafa had at valencia.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 18, 2009, 03:33:00 PM
I'll end up a schizophrenic, I really do see both sides. I have formed an opinion of Rafa which is in this thread earlier, but that can be susceptible to change and is based on what I've seen not what could or will happen.

As for injuries mmm I'm still suspect of that fitness coach, he was one of ours not sure when we had the injury filled season or whether he was with us then but I have my suspicions.

I really do try to keep out of keep or go to me both sides have valid arguments.

Edit
First half Arsenal there was a lot of pressuring and again Wigan in bits and pieces OK probably no long spells but more over the 90 than just a half. I think some is related to confidence and 16 back 4's say a lot.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 18, 2009, 04:55:44 PM
Now I'll try to not retort with BBC 5 comments ;)

If you'll play I'll have a crude attempt at actually making the point they struggle with.

Now the question you pose is why pay Rafa 4 mil when he does a worse job than GH..
I think this a little unfair the question is Why should he be given more time? which is easier to answer.

But lets first try, now if we take the Arsenal match team...
Reina
Magic Cara Agger Aurelio
Masch Aquilani
kuyt Gerrard Benayoun
Torres

Now with an exception of a couple of players some already there, the odd one i.e Agger vs Hypia surely that is an upgrade from GH's team? Then you have Ngog/Reira

Now some arguments are based on so many transfers but how many are reserves or youth? For sure he's made mistakes as has every manager. But the last 2 seasons he hasn't been given a huge amount of funds...

Glen Johnson     £17,500,000                     Sami Hyypiä     Free           
Chris Mavinga    Signed                          Jack Hobbs    Signed         
Stephen Sama    Free                            Paul Anderson    £250,000         
Alberto Aquilani    £17,000,000             Sebastian Leto    £1,300,000         
Sotirios Kyrgiakos    £1,500,000              Astrit Ajdarevic    Free         
                                                Jermaine Pennant    Free    
                                                Alvaro Arbeloa    £3,500,000
                                                Xabi Alonso    £30,000,000
                                                Shane O Connor    Free         
                                                Adam Hammill    Signed         
Total    £36,000,000                      £35,050,000                        £950,000

Philipp Degen     Free                    Anthony Le Tallec     Undisclosed           
Andrea Dossena    £7,000,000              Harry Kewell    Free         
Diego Cavalieri    £3,500,000      Peter Crouch    £10,000,000         
Robbie Keane    £19,000,000             Danny Gutherie    £2,500,000         
Vitor Flora    Signed                 John Arne Riise    £4,000,000         
Alberto Riera    £8,000,000              Scott Carson    £3,250,000         
David Ngog    £1,500,000              Steve Finnan    £1,000,000         
                          Robbie Keane    £12,000,000
Total    £39,000,000              £32,750,000                    £6,250,000

Now that is little over 7 Million is this enough for a team contending for 4th place?
Then if we factor wages in as well

Chelsea 149Mil
Manu 121Mil
Arsenal 101mil
Liverpool 89Mil

So recently he hasn't been given the funds and the wage bill doesn't match Arsenal. So it some where inbetween Arsenal and Manu doesn't have the funds to buy willy nally and doesn't have the wages to offer to prospects. So his mistakes stand out more.

Now there is arguments for he is over achieving in the recent seasons so why do you feel he isn't over acheiving? Now we touched youth earlier so lets expand on this a little now Rafa wasn't happy with the youth setup(For sure you can criticise him for this but hindsight and all that)so ... Now he has in place what he feels is needed shouldn't he be given time to see if it bears fruit?

OK so I see some arguments seem to be placed around the style now(Here I will struggle but lets try), now you highlight several points from the Wigan match and sticking to plan but unless I'm mistaken didn't it start 4-4-2 no lone striker there, and also change it to 4-5-1? You also mention the defensive midfield now I accept there is some truth in that, but really OK mistakes have been made but in the short term(Lucas vs a temp signing) is Aquilani defensive? But if I'm honest I'm not going to defend him or condemn him for points lost this season or gained last season. The fact you've lost your midfield general has an impact now we can assign blame but lets just call it a mutual leaving in the end. So should Rafa not be given time to find his new midfield general? OK so you don't like his style but has style won Arsenal anything, didn't Mourhino get sacked for "style" reasons? What I'm trying to highlight is with the means given and certainly taking into account the last couple of seasons on the transfer market what else can he do, great attacking pacy scorers cost more than your Liverpool records?

Then the crux of it all what ever way it is dressed Rafa has done more in Europe than GH ever did as this is the money maker should he not continue? As it looks like revenue is a struggling point for Liverpool at the moment, with the owners mismanagement. In to my final bit can you trust your owners to appoint the correct person? The last person rumoured was Jurgen "bloody" Klinsmen. Coming from a club that has seen Souness and BS disasters mixed with other temps some worse some better, I ask is the road you wish to take or perhaps shouldn't you keep Rafa if for no other reason than stability? If you change it will also mean a huge change right through the club structure, could the club take that?

Firstly thank you for actually being able to think and to bother actually writting your opinion.  There are a few good points made, and I will try and explain my views, or to offer the side of the argument.

BEFORE I DO, REDMAN, PLEASE STOP SIMPLY WRITING ABOUT ME, AND CONCENTRATE ON LIVERPOOL, ITS GETTING SILLY NOW.  AS IVE ALREADY SAID TO YOUR MENTOR DUDE, LOWER CENTENARY ROW 21 SEAT 53. EVERY HOME GAME.  COME AND HAVE A CHAT IF YOU ACTUALLY GO TO THE MATCH.

Ok, first you mention the team against Arsenal, so ok, lets compare it to the team he inherited from GH.

Reina - Dudek
Johnson - Finnan
Cara- Cara
Agger - Hyypia
Aurelio - Riise
Smicer - Kuyt
Gerrard - Gerrard
Masch - Hamman
Yossi - Kewell
Lucas - Baros
Torres - Ciise

Now, obviously as GH normally played 442, Ive had to compare Lucas to Baros, and I honestly would prefer Baros up front with Torres than Lucas in midfeld.  I also didnt include Aqaulani because he didnt start.

Reina is better than Dudek, although shot stopping are similar, Reina has better distribution and more authority

Johnson vs Finnan is a close one, Johnson is better attacking, Finnan is a better defender, so it depends on what you are after

Agger vs Hyypia, goes to Sami, no offence to Agger, but Hyypia wins hands down

Aurelio vs Riise, again hands down to Riise

Smicer vs Kuyt, Closer than you may think.  Smicer always promised more than he gave and Rafa promises more than Kuyt gives!  As attacking threats, I would have to give it to Smicer, as a team player it goes to Dirk, so overall, I suppose Dirk shades it

Masch vs Hamman.  Again terribly close, they are actually very similar, so I would call this a draw.

Yossi vs Kewell, Hands down to Yossi, but then a traffic cone could win this one

Torres vs Ciise, Again hands down to Torres, obviously.

So thats 4 to Rafa, 2 to GH and a draw.  So basically in 5 years and after £228m and 76 attempts RB has 2 better players in his team than GH.

I shall deal with the rest in a bit, need something to eat first
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 18, 2009, 05:40:54 PM
In the above post it should read Rafa 4, GH 2 and 2 draws, not 1.

Anyway, to the next point, there is a popular myth that RB has no money, or that he simply has to raise his own funds which as I will now explain is complete nonesense.

In the 5 years since RB took charge, he has spent MORE NETT than ANY OTHER manager in PL.  Now that includes Wenger and Fergie.  SO how can this argument still stand?  NETT, for those of you dont understand is the difference between what you spend and what you raise.  So the difference is more for RB than ANYONE ELSE!

In that time, and strangly since the Americans have taken over, (the Americans he claims dont back him) he has BROKEN THE CLUB TRANSFER RECORD for EVERY OUTFIELD POSITION, SOMETIMES MORE THAN ONCE, they are as followers:

RB Johnson
LB Dosenna
CB Skrtel
RM Kuyt
LM Riera
CM Masch/Aqualani
CF Torres

Now that is without the £12m for Babel because apparently he has no position and without the £20m for Keane, because he since got £12m of that back

So other than outspend EVERY OTHER manager in the PL, and break the TRANSFER RECORD FOR EVERY POSITION, you are right, he has no money.

Now onto Alonso, our midfield general?  Its amazing how quickly things are forgotten in football.  In the summer of 2008 RB was offering Alonso for £15m to anyone who would listen, including Arsenal and Juventus, who both said no.  Skip forward a year and RB is moaning that he wants to go to Madrid for double that amount!

So either Rafa was WRONG to try and sell him for £15m or to try and keep him when offered £30m

The youth argument is an interesting one.  It was GH who set up the academy in the first place, and we had more players come through during his 5 years than Rafas.  Given that GH only had the academy to work with for 2.5years, thats not bad.  He brought through the likes of Neil Mellor, Jon Ostemobor, Stephen Warnock, Stephen Wright, and whilst admitedly these are no world beaters, they have all if nothing else earned RB some money from their sales, and without them his NETT spend would look even worse, just like when players who never broke into the team like Danny Guthrie have been sold and the money given to RB.

It is always hard with kids because unless you try them you dont know.  Will Pacheco thrive or wilt under the pressure, same with Spearing, or will he do the opposite?  However, one thing is for sure, if you dont try you'll never know.  RB has been there for 6 summers now, so 6 lots of lads have graduated from the academy, yet we havent seen any of them, so why bother with an academy?  Why not close it down and simply spend the money it costs on buying players?  We are told that RB has signed 76 players because a lot of them are kids who need to develop, yet I'm still waiting.  So give RB the benefit of the doubt, and pretend he actually knows the academy exists, but no one can claim he is doing a good job there because it hasnt produced any players!

The argument that we should keep RB simply for stability is no reason to pay someone £4m a year, especially when he provides anything but this.  Stability like publically slating the owners?  Like forcing his apparent key players like Alonso to leave? Like arguing with half the managers in the league?

What sort of ambition does that show?  It shows less ambition than his teams.

And I'm not a GH fan to answer a previous post, infact I feel the same way about Rafa than I did about GH, but to say that he played football as negative as Rafa is simply not true.  Heskey, Owen were often played together and added into this when Fowler had gone were Anelka and Baros, and he didnt have chance to use his biggest signing Ciise, now how is that as negative as Torres or Ngog up front on there own with the rest of the team inside their own half?  Counter attacking football is fine, Arsenal play it, United have done it for years.  They break at pace and its exciting to watch, again not particularly negative.  So again, get your facts right before just branding insults around



Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Red Jesus on December 18, 2009, 06:43:24 PM
I personaly don't think we should get shut of Rafa yet, after all jonny Houlier had 2 bad season before they got shut of him.  Yes you can argue that Rafa has spent more money than him and has won less but since Rafa has Houlier went Rafa has had to not only compete with United but also Chelsea's money which has inflated the price of players.  You should also take into consiceration that since Houllier left the amount of money comming into football has increased expodentially.

I do think you have some good points to make but I believe the earliest we shoudl think about getting shut of Rafa is at the end of the season not now.  I do share your views that he has squandered his money and that he has used the excuse that he has no money to his advantage and yes a lot of people are now starting to question him and his actions, but like I said although I respect your opinion I dont agree that we should get shut at the moment although if things donty improve then we shoud use all the reasons you list to get shut apart from the number of honours as you dont have nay right to win anything, unless the loss is directly because his actions.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Redman on December 19, 2009, 04:32:03 PM
I can't win either way can I ;) this site is clearly unfriendly maybe your the dude abides puppet.

The true facts are that The Dude and I know each other from way back on the Liverpool newsgroup when as you are well aware Pumparse, you destroyed that newsgroup and continue to do so with your anti Rafa postings

Redman
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: BandWMisery on December 19, 2009, 04:56:49 PM
LOL

Not even worthy of a response you and Dude keep deluding your selves, that we're some kind of puppets even in the 10 or 20 posts I read I know you're talk s***e.

The writing styles are so different it is nothing but flame bait coming from both of your mouths.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 19, 2009, 07:30:42 PM
The true facts are that The Dude and I know each other from way back on the Liverpool newsgroup when as you are well aware Pumparse, you destroyed that newsgroup and continue to do so with your anti Rafa postings

Redman

exactly, redman.

Pompous Pope, with his endless flames and nutty rants, destroyed a great newsgroup. 

It would be really cool if he could p**s off and leave this forum alone.

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 19, 2009, 07:34:21 PM
I can't win either way can I ;) this site is clearly unfriendly maybe your the dude abides puppet.

why don't you pi.ss off and support your own club.



Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: dazrenco on December 19, 2009, 08:09:40 PM
How Can that idiot blame the Ref?  >:(

We are shine-a-light ! at the moment - All season we have been crap(ok at times unlucky too) but we dont even look like a team ..

Disjointed, negative, but at least now WE ARE consistant  ! consistantantly crap !
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Irish_Mark on December 19, 2009, 09:55:00 PM

Reina - Dudek
Johnson - Finnan
Cara- Cara
Agger - Hyypia
Aurelio - Riise
Smicer - Kuyt
Gerrard - Gerrard
Masch - Hamman
Yossi - Kewell
Lucas - Baros
Torres - Ciise



My estimation on this would be:

Reina over Dudek. Reina is far sharper, great distributor of the ball as you said and decent record with pens.

Johnson - Finnan: As stated, hard to call. Huge fan of Finnan. A bit disappointed when he left but I think Rafa was justified in the end. Johnson I think, was a great signing. But time will tell.

Agger - Hyypia: To be fair, it's hard to beat a legend and wonderful servant like Sami. Possibly our greatest signing of all time.

Aurellio - Riise: John, it has to be.

Smicer - Kuyt: I was a big fan of Vlad, served us well and had his qualities, although I'd have Kuyt before him based on his record in front of goal as well as his work rate.

Masch - Hamann: Very tight. Considering Hamman retired, Masch was a good replacement. Hamman was a better footballer, but Masch brings a different element.

Yossi - Kewell: Yossi, all day long.

Baros - Lucas: I did like Baros, but his record wasn't good enough. Backed him (at 80/1) to be top scorer in the Euros in '04!! But I do have this loyalty to Lucas. I do like the lad. He's shown great character considering the dogs abuse he got from his own fans. I think he has the makings of a good footballer if even a good backup.

Torres - Ciise: Torres.

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Gurdeep on December 19, 2009, 10:29:19 PM
....but at least now WE ARE consistant  ! consistantantly crap !

Sorry but that made me chuckle.

I think us supporters are all feeling the pain, none more so that Rafa himself.  Regardless of whatever happens manager wise, lets just try to support LFC and the players as much as possible.

The 12th man is needed big time!  Lets stand up and be counted!
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Irish_Mark on December 19, 2009, 11:00:25 PM
Sorry but that made me chuckle.

I think us supporters are all feeling the pain, none more so that Rafa himself.  Regardless of whatever happens manager wise, lets just try to support LFC and the players as much as possible.

The 12th man is needed big time!  Lets stand up and be counted!

Absolutely... Agree 100%. I know too many posters (on other forums) calling for Rafa's head, and consistently calling him a 'donkey' etc. while laughing at how we are doing... Hoping we lose so he'll leave. Ridiculous
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Tes on December 19, 2009, 11:29:15 PM
Now I am fully aware that the fact that I think Rafa has turned us into a laughing stock means that I am obviously not a Liverpool fan or know anything about football, and the fact I have held a season ticket for the past 17 years is highly irrelevent, but here goes anyway!

There is a post on here about how Rafa is under pressure because he's foreign!  Now Ive heard a load of excuses in the past few years, in fact from when he first came, when we finished behind Evertn in 5th, but this is a new one to me!

So it begs the question, which such blind faith and backing, what will it take for people to change their mind?

It seems that the Rafa fans think football, or at least Liverpool began in 2004, but lets compare the record of Rafa an the man whos job he took.

GH:
Seasons: 5
Trophies won: 6
Highest League Position: 2nd
Spent: £116m
Recouped: £51m
Nett: £67m

RB:
Seasons: 5
Trophies won: 4
Highest League Position: 2nd
Spent: £247m
Recouped: £134m
Nett: £113m

Now back in 2004, there wasnt a single person other than Phil Thompson wh wanted GH to keep his job, as he was seen as a failure.  When he took over the club in 1999, Liverpool had won just 3 trophies in the 9 previous years, and nothing fo he past 4, yet despite winning 6 trophies in his 5 years, he was accused of spending too much, and taking the club nowhere. 

Skip forward 5 years and we have a man who has spent double the money in the same amount of time, achieved the same in the league and won just over half as much!  Yet, this man is seen as a saint, the saviour, the one to take us forward, is it only me who sees this as strange?

RB has signed 76 players so far, now when you take into cosideration that Gerrard and Carra have been ever presents, that is 8 players for every position!  8 different players!  Its even worse when you remember that for the past 5 years Hyypia was there and for 4 of the 5 Riise wasalso there so how can this squad be the finished article?

It is not only the transfer fees that have to be taken into account, everytime we sign a player, there is a signing on fee, an agent fee, and their wages until they are eventually shipped off.  We officially have the third biggest squad in europe, yet we are struggling the moment we get more than one injury!  We have seen this week that we spent £70m on agents fees last year, now everytime we buy a 'promising star' whom we never see again, we have to pay this players agent.

One of the main things thrown against GH at the end was the signing of Diouf.  £10m wasted on a striker/winger who had some talent, but was clearly out of his depth at Liverpool and often seemed uninterested

Skip forward now to Mr Ryan Babel.  £12m wasted on a striker/winger who has some talent, but is clearly out of his depth at Liverpool and often seems uninterested. 

GH wanted to sign Ronaldo 6 months before he went to Manure, but was told that £12m was too much to spend on an untested talent of a 19 year old.  3 years later, RB buys Ryan Babel, an untested 19 year old talent.

Out of 76 players, there are maybe 10 players who you could say are good enough for Liverpool.  Included in this list are Agger, who can only play 10 games
a season, and Aquilani who hasnt yet played!  So 66 have been a waste of time in the long run!

So if he's not great in the transfer market, then he must be tactically astute? Ha!!!!

Every fan in the country knows we are useless at defending set pieces, and its not just the set piece itself.  The fact that we have EVERY player in our penalty area means that IF we clear the ball, it comes straight back in, and either leads to a goal, or is hacked away for another set piece!  Now thisis supposed to be a top European club, not a pub team, why do we have 5 players marking the penalty spot and no one picking up the other players?  Why when it is clear to everyone that it doesnt work is it not changed?  What sort of tactical genius persists with something that is costing your team points?

So being manager of a top European club must mean that only the other big clubs can knock you out of cup competitions? Not Burnley (4 years before they were a PL team), Barnsley, Benfica, Fiorentina, Spurs (Bottom of the league, 1 win in 18 games) Everton (after 2 games) 

We would surely not drop points EVERY season at Anfield to newly promoted teams?

We would see a 'plan B' in place if the game is going against us.

Hs substitutions are both predictable and pathetic.  Last week agaist City, we needed a goal, so what does he do, replaces Benny with Aurelio!  Takes off an attacker for a left back!  He hs had Aquilani on the bench for a month now!  Claiming he is not match fit, yet how can he be if he is not played?  He sayshe wont rush someone back from injury, yet Torres was playing with injections until a clearly unfit Gerrard was rushed back!

So if he is useless at tactics, and not the best at transfers, surelyit must be his sparkling personality and people skills.

How many players leave Arsenal or United and slate Wenger or Taggart?  Compare that to the amount of e players who have taken a swipe at Rafa, why?

He has publically slated the owners, the CEO and the general running of the club on a few occasions, how dare he?  Only last week he was saying what a big Madrid fan he was and naming the team from 1981.  Now can he name the Liverpool team that beat his precious Madrid that day?  I doubt it, yet we are paying him £4m a year!

He made a fool out of himself and the cub with his Fergie rant last year, and it stank of desperation!

So why is this man not only still employed, but so highly regarded by so many? 

This is area question, I actually want to know what it is, and why GH didnt have it?


OK, CJ, Rafa goes, so who would YOU replace him with?  A positive critique of the qualities of your nominee, just as indepth as the list of Rafa's failings would be a nice balance.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 20, 2009, 04:12:13 PM
Pompous Pope thinks Houllier played awesome football.

And Pope still thinks the league cup and uefa cup wins are better achievements than Rafa's success in the CL.

The lad's powers of analysis are somewhat limited.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Tes on December 20, 2009, 06:02:58 PM
Pompous Pope thinks Houllier played awesome football.

And Pope still thinks the league cup and uefa cup wins are better achievements than Rafa's success in the CL.

The lad's powers of analysis are somewhat limited.


Likewise comparing Rafa's spending totals with Houllier's, without acknowledging the increased cost of buying players since 2005.

My parents paid £2000 for their brand new 2 bedroom detached bungalow with integral garage in 3/4 acre of land in 1959, so when my sister bought a 2 bed terraced house with only a path width yard and no place to park a car for £89,000 in 2006 she obviously paid more than 4000% over the odds.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 20, 2009, 07:25:28 PM
Likewise comparing Rafa's spending totals with Houllier's, without acknowledging the increased cost of buying players since 2005.

My parents paid £2000 for their brand new 2 bedroom detached bungalow with integral garage in 3/4 acre of land in 1959, so when my sister bought a 2 bed terraced house with only a path width yard and no place to park a car for £89,000 in 2006 she obviously paid more than 4000% over the odds.

your sister obviously paid way way over the odds (according to Pope) for her house.  She had so much money to call upon, unlike your parents, and yet ended up with a tiny place.

With his powers of analysis, Pope could get a job in 11 Downing Street (or the equivalent in Dublin).




Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: wittsy on December 21, 2009, 12:11:22 PM
There is one small problem with all the comments on how much Rafa has spent.. when you consider that the only player we have sold for real value was Alonso (£30 mill) and all these amazing GH team player left for pennies because nobody actually wanted most of them.. One other thing forgotten is that if you were to take one player out of UTD sales list their nett spend is quite different ( eg £80 mill for Ronnie ). It doesn't matter how you analyse it it will be a never ending debate..

There's no point in talking about Rafa going and we should blame blah blah .. he's still here and we have to win games with what we have, why not talk about that. I still think we have a better first team than Villa, Spurs and no worse than City (although we should improve the overall squad). I would say that UTD have a better squad but not much better in their first 11. I hate to say it but the two London clubs do look very strong though.. Lets see where we are in a couple months, there's no reason we can't get 4th ( YET )..
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on December 21, 2009, 05:08:23 PM
exactly, redman.

Pompous Pope, with his endless flames and nutty rants, destroyed a great newsgroup. 

It would be really cool if he could p**s off and leave this forum alone.



A great news group?

What news is this?  The front page only gives the result when we win!  No mention of the Portsmouth match, still on about the team for Wigan!!

Have a look through, the last match report was against Everton!

It seems to upset you when people state facts, when the VERY obvious is pointed out.  Why is this?  Have you noticed where we are in the league?  Have you noticed we are out of the CL?  Why not spend your time watching a match instead of coming on here with nothing to offer other than abuse?

You and your puppet seem to be in the minority both on here and certainly at Anfield.  Next time you bother to watch a game have a listen to see if the crowd chant Rafas name.  In these times of crisis when the manager is under pressure surely the fans would offer their support for him if they were of the same thinking as you?  Havent heard his name chanted since the United game, when to be honest the crowd will chant everything when we are beating them.

I really dont understand why you feel so strongly about something, yet offer no retort other than have 2 line rants about the posters.  Either you feel strongly, but cant form any kind of argument, or you just want to be different and dont know enough about the subject, either way, it seems a bit pointless. 
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on December 21, 2009, 10:15:59 PM
It seems to upset you when people state facts, when the VERY obvious is pointed out. 
on the contrary, when FACTS are posted, you disappear and/or refuse to discuss them i.e. Tomkins very detailed factual article.  Of course, the facts don't suit any of your arguments.  Thus, you don't want to see them.
 

Why not spend your time watching a match instead of coming on here with nothing to offer other than abuse?

oh you're so precious.

You start abusive threads, like this one......and then you get your feelings all hurt, when someone fires abuse back at you.

Obviously you are good at giving abuse out, but start to cry when you are abused back.

You're such a hypocrite.

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Irish_Mark on December 21, 2009, 10:59:49 PM

You and your puppet seem to be in the minority both on here and certainly at Anfield.  Next time you bother to watch a game have a listen to see if the crowd chant Rafas name.  In these times of crisis when the manager is under pressure surely the fans would offer their support for him if they were of the same thinking as you?  Havent heard his name chanted since the United game, when to be honest the crowd will chant everything when we are beating them.


Eh, they quite clearly chanted his name at the Wigan game.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Gurdeep on December 21, 2009, 11:10:16 PM
Eh, they quite clearly chanted his name at the Wigan game.

Selective hearing Mark  ;)
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on January 06, 2010, 11:49:26 AM
Dude you do make me laugh.  Please tell me how I have 'started an abusive thread'?  Unless you are Rafa, then there is nothing abusive in this thread, and I'm sure at £4m a year, he wont mind my little view on him!

Ive not been on here since before christmas in the hope that some normal, well balanced answers would be given, but alas, I am still waiting.

To the person who compared a transfer from 2003 to a transfer in 2004 as thesame as a house in 1959 to a house in 2006, well I dont think theres much I need to say about that.  This would be a fair comparison if I was comparing the cost of a Rafa transfer to one made by Shankly, but otherwise it just makes you look silly.

 To whoever else said that I 'loved the way we played under Houllier', when have I ever said that?  I hated the way we played, we played negative counter attacking football.  One thing that you cannot argue with is that it was more succesful, ie. we achieved the same position in the league and won more trophies.  So how can anyone argue that Rafa is a better manager after spending TWICE as much and winning HALF as much?  My original question that still remains unanswered!

Someone else said that 'IF United hadnt sold Ronaldo they would have spent more money!' So? They did sell Ronaldo.  And we sold Alonso, which had we not means we have spent more even if they had kept Ronaldo!  And in that time when we have spent MORE than United we have won the CL and FA Cup, they have won 3 PLs, CL, 2 LCs, and the World Club Cup, so it kind of puts Rafas achievments compared to money spent into persepctive. 

The 'bad Houllier players that we had to give away because nobody wanted them' Would they be the same players that won the CL?  Would they include the likes of Hyypia, Riise, Hamman, Finnan and co, who were first teamers until recently, and went to another CL final?  Seems that since these 'flops' have gone, we have got worse!

When Houllier was in charge our best 2 players were Carra and Gerrard, now 76 players and £228m later, our best 2 players are Gerrard and Carra.  All that has happened is that they have aged 5 years in the meantime!

Look at this transfer window, and its a prime example of what I think is wrong with Rafa.  There are players who we all think will leave this window, such as:

Dosenna - Bought for £7m, been paid wages for the past 18 months, pretty much lost the Tottenham game in the LC on his own, and now we will be made up if we get £4.5m back for him!

Babel - Bought for £12m, paid wages for 2 and a half years, promised each week to get a run of games, been played out of position when he does get picked and will either be sent on loan, or sold for under £8m.

Voronin - Ok a free transfer, but still paid wages every week, and we were told by Rafa at the start of the season that we didnt need another striker because we had voronin back from loan, after 3 games, he now doesnt want him.

The man doesnt have a clue, thats why hes bought nearly 10 players for EVERY position since hes been here, and Im sure in this window he will sign a few more.

The difference between a good manager and Rafa was shown over the weekend.  Liverpool had another classic performance against Reading, and Rafa said after the match 'I was pleased with the character, Reading played well because they were on TV and I'm relieved to get another chance at Anfield.'  Meanwhile, United lost to Leeds, and fergie said 'That game was disgusting, I was going to use those players on Wednesday, but they will NOT play now, we werent good enough.'  Now obviously Liverpool are still in the cup and United are out, but my point is there is one manager who wants to win and takes pride in his team and thier performance, and another who is happy not to lose, and makes excuses for his team.  Now I HATE Taggart, but I would rather have someone with his mentality than the negative nutcase we currently have.

Rafa has said that we are struggling because Torres has been out, yet United sold Ronaldo, who was the best player in the world last year, and have won their CL group, are 2 points off the top and have a semi final tonight.  The reason that we miss Torres so much is that we can stick everyone else behind the ball and hoof it up to Nando to chance until he tears another muscle.

Dude I'm assuming the whole 'pope' thing is still being aimed at me, and I'm assuming it is simply because you are unable either through lack of knowledge or ability to create a well reasoned reply, but I can assure you, I am, and never have been on any other forums, and certainly would not choose the name 'pope', as I am an athiest!!!!!!  But if it makes you feel like you are making a contribution to the argument, then you continue.

I'm also assuming as nobody approached me during the Wolves game that either the loud mouth Rafa lovers who were saying I dont have a season ticket either dont go to the match themselves, or are only loud mouth on a forum.  If anyone would just like a friendly chat and a brew though against Spurs on Sunday, I'm Lower Centenary, Row 21, Seat 53.

Happy New Year to all!!!
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 06, 2010, 07:11:12 PM
CJ,

I'm only going to reply to a couple of your comments as I have no wish to get into a long debate.

Dude you do make me laugh.  Please tell me how I have 'started an abusive thread'?

That's easy. The title of your thread was abusive to Rafa. He certainly isn't a fool in my opinion. How can anyone who has risen to managing a Premiership club be considered a fool? It say's more about you than Rafa that you would use such a word. Quite honestly it's something I would expect a kid to use - not an adult.

Quote
So how can anyone argue that Rafa is a better manager after spending TWICE as much and winning HALF as much?  My original question that still remains unanswered!

Because there is no law that say's the more you spend the more you win. Look at Chelsea. How much have they spent and they still haven't won the CL and that is Abramovich's prime target. So using your rules, the past 4 managers at Chelsea are all fools sinc they've had as much money as they want and still haven't delivered the club's primary target.

Quote
When Houllier was in charge our best 2 players were Carra and Gerrard, now 76 players and £228m later, our best 2 players are Gerrard and Carra.

That is a ludicrous comment but as it can't be measured objectively I would suggest that Reina and Torres have been our two best players this season.

Quote
The man doesnt have a clue, thats why hes bought nearly 10 players for EVERY position since hes been here, and Im sure in this window he will sign a few more.

10 players for each position?  :o I don't remember there being 10 goalkeepers! Aren't many of those purchases for the reserves? I'm not saying he has a high percentage of successful buying but maybe he's had to cut his cloth according to his budget and that involves more risk. At least he gets rid when he realises they're not going to cut it as opposed to Ferguson who can afford to absorb dodgy purchases such as Nani and Carrick.

And isn't it funny that the press haven't commented at all on the dreadful form of Keane since he returned to Spurs. Harry Redknapp has even dropped him a few times he was that bad. Seems his form only worked with Berbatov and don't get me started on that waste of money!

Quote
The difference between a good manager and Rafa was shown over the weekend.  Liverpool had another classic performance against Reading, and Rafa said after the match 'I was pleased with the character, Reading played well because they were on TV and I'm relieved to get another chance at Anfield.'  Meanwhile, United lost to Leeds, and fergie said 'That game was disgusting, I was going to use those players on Wednesday, but they will NOT play now, we werent good enough.'

So you judge the quality of the manager on how much he berates his team in public. Brilliant! What about Ferguson's judgement on picking that team in the first place? How about calling him a fool especially when he's sold so many good players after a fallout in the dressing room?
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 07, 2010, 12:28:50 AM
Dude you do make me laugh.  Please tell me how I have 'started an abusive thread'? 

Dude I'm assuming the whole 'pope' thing is still being aimed at me, and I'm assuming it is simply because you are unable either through lack of knowledge or ability to create a well reasoned reply

ASI has said all that needs to be said, in the post above.

I'll just add that (in my opinion) you are not a genuine fan of the club, and are merely here to troll and start trouble.

The regulars here seem to have little time for you.  You'd be best served steering clear of this forum. 
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on January 07, 2010, 02:10:36 PM
CJ,

I'm only going to reply to a couple of your comments as I have no wish to get into a long debate.

That's easy. The title of your thread was abusive to Rafa. He certainly isn't a fool in my opinion. How can anyone who has risen to managing a Premiership club be considered a fool? It say's more about you than Rafa that you would use such a word. Quite honestly it's something I would expect a kid to use - not an adult.

Because there is no law that say's the more you spend the more you win. Look at Chelsea. How much have they spent and they still haven't won the CL and that is Abramovich's prime target. So using your rules, the past 4 managers at Chelsea are all fools sinc they've had as much money as they want and still haven't delivered the club's primary target.

That is a ludicrous comment but as it can't be measured objectively I would suggest that Reina and Torres have been our two best players this season.

10 players for each position?  :o I don't remember there being 10 goalkeepers! Aren't many of those purchases for the reserves? I'm not saying he has a high percentage of successful buying but maybe he's had to cut his cloth according to his budget and that involves more risk. At least he gets rid when he realises they're not going to cut it as opposed to Ferguson who can afford to absorb dodgy purchases such as Nani and Carrick.

And isn't it funny that the press haven't commented at all on the dreadful form of Keane since he returned to Spurs. Harry Redknapp has even dropped him a few times he was that bad. Seems his form only worked with Berbatov and don't get me started on that waste of money!

So you judge the quality of the manager on how much he berates his team in public. Brilliant! What about Ferguson's judgement on picking that team in the first place? How about calling him a fool especially when he's sold so many good players after a fallout in the dressing room?

Ha, ok, lets see.

Your first point, not only is that covered in my last post by me saying 'The only one who will be offended is Rafa', dont be so daft.  If forum users cannot put forward their views towards people who are paid a fortune each week, and are EMPLOYED by the club, then what is the point.

Second bit, you're right, spending money is no guarantee of success, but my point was and still is, how can one man be sacked and the other given a new contract, when the first has spent half as much and won twice as much.  By the argument that Rafa deserves his money for FAILING to deliver a trophy for 3 and a half years, then surely GH should have been knighted for what he managed to achieve on half as much money?  Of course not, GH was right to be sacked, RB has been given more than enough time and no its time for him to go, and give Gerrard a chance of playing in a succesful team before he retires!

Third, you dont think that Gerrard and Cara have been our best players in the past 5 years?  Really? Oh dear.  Yeah you're right Reina has been better than Gerrard!!  Who may or may not have been our best players in the past 10 games is completely irrelevant.  A lot of people are saying that Lucas has been one of the best this season, but does that make him more important than Cara?  The two most important players when he took over were Cara and Gerrard, and now, the two most important players are Cara and Gerrard, not whos done well this month.  So all he has done is shuffle around the rest, and as has been discussed earlier with varied results.  Some better, some worse than what he had.

Fourth, as you seem unable to count, let me shed some light on so math for you.  Before this window, Rafa had bought 76 players.  There are 11 positions on the pitch.  Now Gerrard and Cara were already there, so that makes 9 positions that he had to fill.  As I have already mentioned at least 674 times before, I am talking about outfield positions, because he got Reina early on.  So thats 8 positions he had to find.  So 76 divded by 8 is just 9.5 players per position.  And before you get your knickers in a twist about goalkeepers, remember, that until the summer, he had Hyypia, and until last year he had Riise and Finnan, so up until 18 months ago, he only had to fill 5 positions!!! Or if you take those into account, and take away the keepers bought, 15 per position!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  As for the argument that they are in the reserves, what all 67 of them?  Thats 76 minus 9 (11 excluding Gerrard and Cara).  I cant wait for all these hot prospects to break into the team!!! If you ever watch the reserves, you will noticce that the two who stand out are Spearing and Darby who like Gerrard and Cara were already at the club!!!!!!!!!!!!  Rafa is employed to deliver success on the pitch with the first team, not the reserves, (the reserves who nearly got relegated last year!) and if he is going to moan that he has no money, then why not stop buying reserves?  Every player comes with wages, signing on fees and agents that need to be paid, money that is not counted as towards RBs total spend.  Even if, and its a BIG IF, you average a signing on fee at £100k for each player, thats another £7.6m that has been spent, then IF the agents fees average at 5%, then you need to add on another £11.4m, so in total at ABSOLUTE BEST thats another £19m to add on to his total spend, or for the most part waste.

Fifth, you talk about the likes of Nani and Carrick being wastes of money, and that Fergie has wasted money.  Since he came here, RB has spent more nett than Fergie, so if Fergie has wasted money yet won 3 PLs in that time, what would you descibe as RBs actions?  And havent the above 2 players been part of those teams that won the PL, so maybe not so much of a waste after all!

Sixth, Robbie Keane, we paid over the odds, never played him, then got some money back.  Ok a mistake.  Every manager makes them and I dont blame RB for buying him, just for not playing him.  He has been dropped by Spurs because of what happened at christmas, and the fact that Crouch (who we sold) and defoe are playing well.  Thats tactics, and part of the joys of having a decent squad.

Seventh, I'm not saying that publically slating your players is right or wrong, but Fergie sends his teams out EVERYTIME to win.  RB has admitted that he is often happy not to lose.  Do you think that Fergie would say 'Reading played well cos they were on the tele, we showed character and I'm happy with a replay'?  Of course not, he wants to win.  Thats why he plays attacking football, and why he is successful.

Eighth, The good players that he has sold after a fallout, who?  Beckham? Van Horse Face, Stam, Ince? He got top dollar for each one of these and replaced them overnight.  What happened after they were sold?  Where they ever as good as at United?  No, he got the best out of them and then moved them on at the right price.  He knew when to get rid, and who to replace them with.

As for you Dude, I refer you to the opening line to my thread to see how predictable and dense you really are.  My god, I thought United fans were stupid.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 08, 2010, 06:26:47 PM
As for you Dude, I refer you to the opening line to my thread to see how predictable and dense you really are.  My god, I thought United fans were stupid.

I'm not the one who has to write War & Peace, each time I want to make a point.

Now kindly take your Rafa Hatefest somewhere else and give this place a break.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Juan on January 09, 2010, 01:13:03 PM
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2010/01/09/dominic-king-rafa-benitez-should-not-have-to-manage-liverpool-fc-s-debt-100252-25558653/

DOMINIC KING: Rafa Benitez should not have to manage Liverpool FC's debt

Jan 9 2010 Liverpool Echo

RYAN BABEL has found his name the subject of debate on numerous occasions this season and that was again the case in the opening week of the new year.

This time, though, rather than sparking chatter about why he can look a world beater one moment but a bungling novice the next, the interest Birmingham City showed in Babel opened a completely different can of worms.

When news emerged that Birmingham, flush with cash following Carson Yeung’s takeover, wanted to make a marquee signing and felt they could do so with a £9m bid for Babel, the vast majority of Liverpool supporters immediately thought: “take it.”

After all, the Holland forward has flattered to deceive more times than many would care to mention, the fee looked enticing and represented a reasonable return on Liverpool’s initial outlay to Ajax in the summer of 2007.

Liverpool, however, had other ideas. Their valuation of Babel – who, remember, is still a current international, only just turned 23 and capable of producing extravagant moments of skill – is closer to £12m; they have no intentions of selling on the cheap.

On the surface, that is a totally plausible argument; good businesses do not sell commodities for prices lower than they have in mind and, furthermore, why would Babel be offloaded to a place where he could come back to haunt the Reds?

But scratch beneath the surface and there is another reason Rafa Benitez was anything but interested in talking terms with Alex McLeish, one that has set the alarms bells ringing loudly on the Kop and beyond.

While Liverpool are crying out for investment in their playing staff, had they cashed in on Babel, Benitez’s best hopes of spending a figure in excess of £9m this month would be to invest in a lottery ticket and hope all six numbers come up.

In the others words, the money would have been swallowed up to help finance the £240m debt the club is trying to manage; club insiders insist that is not the case and the deficit is manageable but critics of Tom Hicks and George Gillett will beg to differ.

True, it’s worth remembering the January window is capricious and top quality players – the type who would provide an injection of star quality Liverpool require – are not freely available; if they are, invariably clubs will have to pay over the odds.

Still it is hugely disappointing, to put it mildly, that Benitez will be limited to bringing just Maxi Rodriguez in for £1.5m when he also desperately needs experienced cover at right-back for the stricken Glen Johnson.

If he is unable to bring in a specialist for that area – and it is looking all the more likely – it will be hard to escape the feeling that Liverpool’s main aim for the next few years will be debt reduction rather than trophy gathering.

Something desperately needs to change; while many see a new stadium or a redeveloped Anfield being key to transforming Liverpool’s financial fortunes, isn’t there a case to be made for investing in the one facet that should always take priority – the team?

Just say the Reds miss out on qualifying for the Champions League this season and, heaven forbid, some of the star players are sold to make up the shortfall in revenue they would normally receive from rubbing shoulders with the best in Europe.

Slowly but surely, Liverpool would find it harder and harder to keep pace with the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea and the two Manchester clubs, to the point where European football might slip off the landscape completely.

What would the point be in having a sparkling new stadium, then, if the standard of football on offer was way below what has become the norm during the past six years and the big names were out of reach?

The next five months will go a long way to shaping Liverpool’s future and if Benitez feels it is best to hang on to Babel, who might just turn a couple of games with the kind of moments he produced against Lyon and West Ham, then the decision not to sell is right.

Yet what is not right is the fact a club with the Liverpool’s history and pedigree is being forced to rummage around for bargains with nothing other than loose change; expectation and realisation, sadly, do not go hand in hand.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Tes on January 12, 2010, 10:48:08 PM
Can we draw a line under this thread and agree to two things:

1. Let's show respect to each other - afterall we're all Reds and want the best for the club, whatever our differing opinions are.

2. Let's at least be respectful to the players and management of our club, whatever our opinions are of any individual.
    Reasoned and explained criticism is fine, name calling is petty and the behaviour of the playground.

Surely we as fans can be better than that and sure as Hell, our great club deserves that it's fans behave better and rise above it, as does Jim, who's site this is, and we should all remember and appreciate those facts - however tough the going gets.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on January 18, 2010, 10:03:48 AM
I'm not the one who has to write War & Peace, each time I want to make a point.

Now kindly take your Rafa Hatefest somewhere else and give this place a break.


What on earth is your problem?

Firstly you dont make any 'points', you simply insult people and secondly why should I go 'somewhere' else because you disagree with me?

Do you think being a Liverpool fan is about simply closing your eyes and ears and saying how great we are? 

Try really hard and see if you can come up with some form of argument, rather than an insult because you just make yourself into a laughing stock! 

The closest you have given to a response (other than insult me, claim that I am someone else (wtf?) and tell me to either support another club (again wtf?) or to go somehere else) is to say its because of money.

Ok, as you seem to ignored the FACT that Rafa has spent more nett than ANY OTHER MANAGER IN THE LEAGUE, have Reading spent more money than us?  Over 2 games they thoroughly deserved the win, so obviously they must have spent more money?  same with Stoke, I mean they must have have an Arab in charge?  Again, a little FACT for you. EVERY team that we have failed to beat this year have spent LESS than us, so what happens to your srgument now?

Cant wait for your well reasoned intelligent response!
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 18, 2010, 03:13:45 PM
Do you think being a Liverpool fan is about simply closing your eyes and ears and saying how great we are? 

obviously reading is not one of your stronger points.

nobody in here has been ignoring recent events at Anfield. 

But rather than insult Rafa and mock his achievements, other posters in here have been able to try and analyse what could be going wrong........and offering support.

You see, that is what being a fan is about.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 18, 2010, 05:08:21 PM
Ok, as you seem to ignored the FACT that Rafa has spent more nett than ANY OTHER MANAGER IN THE LEAGUE, have Reading spent more money than us?  Over 2 games they thoroughly deserved the win, so obviously they must have spent more money?  same with Stoke, I mean they must have have an Arab in charge?  Again, a little FACT for you. EVERY team that we have failed to beat this year have spent LESS than us, so what happens to your srgument now?

You've beaten that drum on several occasions in this forum and quite frankly, it's getting boring. Please desist. We get the message.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Ed on January 18, 2010, 05:26:03 PM
Totally agree dude!

I mean once I finally accepted that we weren't going to win the league this season (last week! lol), I just got on with it. Rafa's lost his mojo for awhile, tbh the guy has a lot on his plate, it happens! But I'm not going to desert him in his hour of need. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

I just wish the haters would f**k off and die. Same c**ts baying for his blood now would be the first to have slaughtered him if he'd moved to Real for twice the money. Benitez has enough dignity to go if he feels he can't turn it around and in the meantime deserves our support.

I'm really really looking forward to the Spurs game!
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 18, 2010, 05:36:08 PM
Totally agree dude!

I mean once I finally accepted that we weren't going to win the league this season (last week! lol), I just got on with it. Rafa's lost his mojo for awhile, tbh the guy has a lot on his plate, it happens! But I'm not going to desert him in his hour of need. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

I just wish the haters would f**k off and die. Same c**ts baying for his blood now would be the first to have slaughtered him if he'd moved to Real for twice the money. Benitez has enough dignity to go if he feels he can't turn it around and in the meantime deserves our support.

well said, Ed.

Yes, it's no big secret that we have had a shocking season.  And come the summer, hard questions will need to be asked.

But the club needs our support in it's desperate hour of need.  It has given us so much over the decades.  Rafa has made qualifying for the CL an expected end of season event.  Perhaps that is what is gonna hurt him.....the inflated expectations, with the way he has enhanced the club.

Shankly had poor seasons.  Dalglish got off to an awful start one year.  These things happen. 

The club badly needs investment.  Rafa has kept the wolves from the door for the past couple of years.  But the off-the-pitch issues are now finally impacting on on-the-pitch issues.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Ed on January 18, 2010, 05:55:59 PM
Totally agree, come the summer hard questions need to be asked.

Sometimes you'd think that the end of world is nigh with these weirdos that seem to have a wart on their f*nny relating to Rafa.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 18, 2010, 06:14:49 PM
Totally agree, come the summer hard questions need to be asked.

Sometimes you'd think that the end of world is nigh with these weirdos that seem to have a wart on their f*nny relating to Rafa.

exactly.

they have tiny brains and big mouths....which is a terrible combination.

history tells us that long term success is built on continuity......one doesn't throw the baby out with the dishwater, every time a dark cloud appears.

success is built on having a good manager at the helm....and giving him the resources (time and money) to do his job.

I only wish that Man Utd had had a few more kneejerkers in the 80s.  Maybe the Ferguson dynasty could have been stopped in it's tracks.



Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on January 19, 2010, 02:31:15 PM
You've beaten that drum on several occasions in this forum and quite frankly, it's getting boring. Please desist. We get the message.

I refer you to the quote that came after this post:

well said, Ed.

Yes, it's no big secret that we have had a shocking season.  And come the summer, hard questions will need to be asked.

But the club needs our support in it's desperate hour of need.  It has given us so much over the decades.  Rafa has made qualifying for the CL an expected end of season event.  Perhaps that is what is gonna hurt him.....the inflated expectations, with the way he has enhanced the club.

Shankly had poor seasons.  Dalglish got off to an awful start one year.  These things happen. 

The club badly needs investment.  Rafa has kept the wolves from the door for the past couple of years.  But the off-the-pitch issues are now finally impacting on on-the-pitch issues.


So it would seem that despite 'banging this drum' some people are still painfully unaware of the FACTS.  The investment has been there and it has been squandered.  There is not a bottomless pit of money to keep giving Rafa to buy second rate foreigners that stay for a year or so then get swapped for another one, 

It has taken him 5 years to build this squad and it is awful, there is no 'squad' just 2 or 3 decent buys with average players around them.  Take out these 2 or 3 and our team is a joke.  If it was your money would you keep giving it to someone who spends it so easily and so badly? 

Totally agree, come the summer hard questions need to be asked.

Sometimes you'd think that the end of world is nigh with these weirdos that seem to have a wart on their f*nny relating to Rafa.

Another wasted season, and another string of awful displays what is the problem with asking questions as to why?

exactly.

they have tiny brains and big mouths....which is a terrible combination.

history tells us that long term success is built on continuity......one doesn't throw the baby out with the dishwater, every time a dark cloud appears.

success is built on having a good manager at the helm....and giving him the resources (time and money) to do his job.

I only wish that Man Utd had had a few more kneejerkers in the 80s.  Maybe the Ferguson dynasty could have been stopped in it's tracks.

Tiny little brains?  I thought you were set against insulting over the interent?  You cried when it was one of the Hicks didnt you?  As for the actual insult, I have yet to see you you counter my argument at all, just throw insults and say cliches.  Have you ever actually been to Anfield? 

You say that 'success is built on continuity', ok, so what exactly is continuous about 77 different players in 5 years?  How can you demand continuity then see different players come and go every week?  The only thing continuous is under-achievement and wasted money.  The fact that Fergie could have been sacked has nothing to do with anything does it?  So if Bolton had kept hold of Gary Megson, then surely 'History shows us' that Bolton would have been a success?  So surely Roy Evans should still be in charge? Or Houllier?  Why is it ok to replace them, but then 'History shows us' that we have to keep them?

If it isnt working, then you have to change it, and after 5 years in charge it clearly isnt working, and nobody (I dont think) could argue that it is.

If a new manager took over, how many players would he want to keep?  3, maybe 4, the others would be on their way. 

You keep blaming it all on money, so as I asked previously, did Stoke spend the same as us? Did Reading, or Portsmouth, Or Fiorentina, Or Sunderland, etc etc spend more than us?  Nope, we have spent more than anyone, so it cannot be used as an excuse, because it is simply not true, and to say it is just makes you seem a bit silly


Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: kopite70 on January 19, 2010, 02:57:04 PM
centenaryjonny I can only assume that you are one of the many creeping threough the gates of Anfield these days that has little regard to the history and honour of our great club.....to point out a few observations.

Oh I didn't read all your post because I could have flown through several time zones and still not have finished!

We don't sack managers because they have had a few bad results go their way!
We support a manager who is clearly better than what we have had for the last 20 years and has his hands tied behind his back with a pair of owners that would serve better working a tMiltons in town than owning our great club!
I hear people like you most weeks now at Anfield a growning army of people (can't use the word fan if it doesn't fit) loyalty counts for a lot at Anfield, support our great team if you have crappy comments and witch hunts then I for one can't be "A*sed"

A loyal fan of 35 years on the KOP!
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 19, 2010, 04:25:44 PM
The investment has been there and it has been squandered.  There is not a bottomless pit of money to keep giving Rafa to buy second rate foreigners that stay for a year or so then get swapped for another one

Pope, you're like a record, with the needle stuck in the same groove.

Your claims re transfer investment, have been repeatedly shown up for the nonsense that they are.

Rafa's had, up until this season, some 16 or 17 million pounds NET (each year) to add to the team.

We have never been able to compete with Chelsea or United (or now City) for the top drawer names.  We can't afford to throw out mid to high 20 millions, or 30 million plus, on a player.  United, City and Chelsea can (or could, in United's case).

Why don't you take your plastic support to one of those clubs.  And leave genuine support to the real fans.


Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 19, 2010, 05:59:31 PM
Liverpool are Punching Above Their Weight
By Guillem Ballague

Even the most pro-Rafa Benitez fans are losing faith and perhaps, on the surface, any other reaction appears illogical.

But what are the real reasons behind Liverpool’s decline? Results are the consequence of a complex set of circumstances behind the scenes, but the majority cannot see beyond the surface and what they wrongly perceive as simple failings at managerial level.

Voices in the media have decided in unison that Benitez is to blame and the Liverpool fans are starting to repeat that mantra – despite spending months accusing the press of an anti-Liverpool bias. Aside from the odd exception, the media is not anti-Rafa, nor are they to blame for the difficulties at Anfield. But they can lead opinion and have Benitez in their sights.

I’m afraid I cannot agree with the majority. Primarily, it’s worth remembering that Liverpool has one of the top managers in the world at the helm.

The figure of £280million that gets repeatedly churned out is deliberately misleading – and the fact is, Rafa has spent an average of £16m net for every year in charge at the club. It is absurd to think that Pep Guardiola or Jose Mourinho would be able to compete for a Premier League title with that expenditure.

I know for a fact that Mourinho is very well informed about the financial situation at Anfield: he knows that in order for Liverpool to compete at the top in the wealthiest league in the world, new investment is needed but there is nothing on the horizon. Consequently, it is neither an attractive proposition nor an option for Jose.

Liverpool has no money for January transfers, so Rafa’s target is to get key players -  Gerrard, Torres and Aquilani – fit enough to contribute in a run of matches: allowing him to play his first choice team and notch up the four or five consecutive wins that will silence the critics.

If Liverpool were not called Liverpool, they’d be receiving praise for punching above their weight. The burden of history behind that name dictates the emotions of the fans and influences those who lead opinion. I would argue that, given the owners emphasis upon reducing the debt instead of improving the squad, this Liverpool side has been over-achieving rather than under-performing.

The manager has to work with inferior resources to every other club expected to win the title – lower even than some clubs expected to finish in the top six – and must therefore pull everything together to  follow a steady path toward long-term success.

Liverpool football club is at a crossroads and, disappointingly, the allure of instant gratification is persuading too many fans that there must be some magical shortcut preferable to the road of steady progress down which Rafa is trying to lead the club.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 19, 2010, 06:06:30 PM
Why Liverpool are actually punching above their weight, despite what the critics are saying
By: Guillem Balague

Even the most pro-Rafa Benitez fans are losing faith and perhaps, on the surface, any other reaction appears illogical.

But what are the real reasons behind Liverpool’s decline? Results are the consequence of a complex set of circumstances behind the scenes, but the majority cannot see beyond the surface and what they wrongly perceive as simple failings at managerial level.

Voices in the media have decided in unison that Benitez is to blame and the Liverpool fans are starting to repeat that mantra – despite spending months accusing the press of an anti-Liverpool bias. Aside from the odd exception, the media is not anti-Rafa, nor are they to blame for the difficulties at Anfield. But they can lead opinion and have Benitez in their sights.

I’m afraid I cannot agree with the majority. Primarily, it’s worth remembering that Liverpool has one of the top managers in the world at the helm.

The figure of £280million that gets repeatedly churned out is deliberately misleading – and the fact is, Rafa has spent an average of £16m net for every year in charge at the club. It is absurd to think that Pep Guardiola or Jose Mourinho would be able to compete for a Premier League title with that expenditure.

I know for a fact that Mourinho is very well informed about the financial situation at Anfield: he knows that in order for Liverpool to compete at the top in the wealthiest league in the world, new investment is needed but there is nothing on the horizon. Consequently, it is neither an attractive proposition nor an option for Jose.

Liverpool has no money for January transfers, so Rafa’s target is to get key players -  Gerrard, Torres and Aquilani – fit enough to contribute in a run of matches: allowing him to play his first choice team and notch up the four or five consecutive wins that will silence the critics.

If Liverpool were not called Liverpool, they’d be receiving praise for punching above their weight. The burden of history behind that name dictates the emotions of the fans and influences those who lead opinion. I would argue that, given the owners emphasis upon reducing the debt instead of improving the squad, this Liverpool side has been over-achieving rather than under-performing.

The manager has to work with inferior resources to every other club expected to win the title – lower even than some clubs expected to finish in the top six – and must therefore pull everything together to  follow a steady path toward long-term success.

Liverpool football club is at a crossroads and, disappointingly, the allure of instant gratification is persuading too many fans that there must be some magical shortcut preferable to the road of steady progress down which Rafa is trying to lead the club.

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on January 20, 2010, 10:44:01 AM
centenaryjonny I can only assume that you are one of the many creeping threough the gates of Anfield these days that has little regard to the history and honour of our great club.....to point out a few observations.

Oh I didn't read all your post because I could have flown through several time zones and still not have finished!

We don't sack managers because they have had a few bad results go their way!
We support a manager who is clearly better than what we have had for the last 20 years and has his hands tied behind his back with a pair of owners that would serve better working a tMiltons in town than owning our great club!
I hear people like you most weeks now at Anfield a growning army of people (can't use the word fan if it doesn't fit) loyalty counts for a lot at Anfield, support our great team if you have crappy comments and witch hunts then I for one can't be "A*sed"

A loyal fan of 35 years on the KOP!

Ha, What a typical response from a blinded Rafa fan!

You said it all when you said 'I havent read your post...'  How can you respond to something you havent read? 

Oh well, Dude has another friend now!

As for your other points, (used in the losest of terms) 'We dont sack managers after a few bad results...'  You're right, we dont, but we sacked our last manager after not winning a trophy for 1 year and being off the pace in the league.  We havent won anything for almost 4 years now (asuming we dont win the UvEFAiled cup) and are miles away in the league,

So again my question as it was from the start, is how is he still in work?

'Hands tied behind his back..'

Really? So spending more nett than ANY OTHER MANAGER IN THE COUNTRY (sorry for repeating myself, but it seems some are hard of thinking) is having his hands tied is it?  Well, I feel sorry for the other who have spent less then!

'He is the best manager for 20 years..'

Really?  So he is better than GH who won TWICE as much by spending HALF as much?  Highly unlikely my friend, because that doesnt make any sense does it?  Personally I think they were both pretty useless and were out of their depth at Liverpool. 

'I hear fans like you every week at Anfield'

Well doesnt that tell you something?  It tells me that people arent happy, and are sick of seeing horrible negative football and second rate players!

Pope, you're like a record, with the needle stuck in the same groove.

Your claims re transfer investment, have been repeatedly shown up for the nonsense that they are.

Rafa's had, up until this season, some 16 or 17 million pounds NET (each year) to add to the team.

We have never been able to compete with Chelsea or United (or now City) for the top drawer names.  We can't afford to throw out mid to high 20 millions, or 30 million plus, on a player.  United, City and Chelsea can (or could, in United's case).

Why don't you take your plastic support to one of those clubs.  And leave genuine support to the real fans.



Dude, thanks for another quote rather than giving me your opinion, but hey, I know the most thinking you do is to cut and paste someones elses views.  Well done!

As for the words that you actually thought of, why do you keep calling me pope?  It makes no sense, but anyway, we will even use your figures to prove my point, ok you ready.....

£280m over 5 years means he has SPENT £56m EVERY YEAR on transfers.

So USING YOUR FIGURES, it is up to MR BENITEZ if he buys one player for £56m, 56 players for £1m, or somewhere in between.

Now you seem to be confusing NETT with SPENT. 

If you are crying that we cannot afford to spend £30m, then look at SPENT, we have SPENT £56m EVERY YEAR, so if we didnt sign so many players (77 so far) then we could easily afford a £30m player!

If however you are crying that he has to raise his own money, then the fact that he has spent more NETT than anyone else in the country, it kind of dismisses this argument, dont you think?

So using your OWN figures, do you now understand that you are making yourself look stupid?  The quotes that you use back up my argument so thank you!

As for the usual 'Go support someone else...' nonesense, I'm not being told about supporting Liverpool by some Irish bloke in America!  I will be there tonight, (Lower Centenary Row 21, seat 53 as usual) will you?

As you havent answered as to whether you have actually been to Anfield, I take that as a very unsurprising NO!

So please, unless you actually have a point, dont just spout nonesense, make yourself look daft, and cut and paste other peoples views!


Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 20, 2010, 10:59:54 AM
As for the usual 'Go support someone else...' nonesense, I'm not being told about supporting Liverpool by some Irish bloke in America!  I will be there tonight, (Lower Centenary Row 21, seat 53 as usual) will you?

what are you going to anfield for?  Will you be in the away end?

my first time at anfield was in the late 70s......we beat WBA by three goals to one (Peter Barnes got a late consolation goal, after a master class in dominance from the men in red)

You'd have enjoyed the glory years.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on January 20, 2010, 11:38:15 AM
what are you going to anfield for?  Will you be in the away end?

my first time at anfield was in the late 70s......we beat WBA by three goals to one (Peter Barnes got a late consolation goal, after a master class in dominance from the men in red)

You'd have enjoyed the glory years.


My goodness, did you type all of that yourself?  No quotes, or cut and paste? 

Yes I'm going to cheer spurs on! Idiot

What bit of USA you from?
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on January 20, 2010, 12:01:51 PM
The only reason I ask is that, if as you claim, you are from LA,  it is 4 oclock in the morning there, so wondering why you are on here, especially as you will be on again later on, you seem to be nocturnal!

Unless of course you are telling porkies?

Of course, I would never suggest this, as I dont think I have ever seen you mention something that is not true!!!!

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 20, 2010, 05:34:56 PM
Yes I'm going to cheer spurs on! Idiot

Hi Idiot,

get behind the team, or else shut your big fat mouth (not easy, I imagine).

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 20, 2010, 05:58:44 PM
The only reason I ask is that, if as you claim, you are from LA,  it is 4 oclock in the morning there, so wondering why you are on here, especially as you will be on again later on, you seem to be nocturnal!

Unless of course you are telling porkies?

Of course, I would never suggest this, as I dont think I have ever seen you mention something that is not true!!!!



I believe Dude lives in Panama which to my reckoning is GMT-5 so that would time his message at 7am and not 4am as you suggest.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on January 24, 2010, 05:53:36 PM
I believe Dude lives in Panama which to my reckoning is GMT-5 so that would time his message at 7am and not 4am as you suggest.

I was going off his bio, which says he lives in Los Angeles, pretty hard to confuse with Panama, either way though, the fact that he hasnt replied to this means either he cant find an appropriate article to cut and paste or maybe, just maybe he doesnt?
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 24, 2010, 06:07:43 PM
I was going off his bio, which says he lives in Los Angeles, pretty hard to confuse with Panama ...

I'm sure it was mentioned at some point in the past. I wouldn't make it up. What would be the point?  ???
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on January 24, 2010, 06:23:22 PM
I'm sure it was mentioned at some point in the past. I wouldn't make it up. What would be the point?  ???

Hey, not having a go at you, just saying that when I checked where he was from it says LA, but to be honest, he probably doesnt know himself unless someone else tells him!
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Ageing Stick Insect on January 24, 2010, 06:37:18 PM
Hey, not having a go at you, just saying that when I checked where he was from it says LA, but to be honest, he probably doesnt know himself unless someone else tells him!

I know you two don't see eye to eye so please just let it go. It's not nice seeing LFC fans having a pop at one another.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 25, 2010, 12:08:16 AM
I was going off his bio, which says he lives in Los Angeles, pretty hard to confuse with Panama

I got the fuk out of LA.  It was being overrun by German nihilists.

They stole my fuking rug.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: kopite70 on January 25, 2010, 12:24:26 AM
Lads these digs at each other getting s little bit boring now......if you want to have a pop at each other swap addy's and do it on messenger or on e-mail!! Who actually gives a monkey who is from where? Does it actually matter?
I'm from Liverpool but it doesn’t mean I am there every day! I have been in 3 different time zones in the last week alone but does that mean my posts are any less valued or have any less truth to them??

Give us all a break and post something that is at least entertaining or failing that something that generates proper debate!
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Irish_Mark on January 25, 2010, 02:05:28 AM
I got the fuk out of LA.  It was being overrun by German nihilists.

They stole my fuking rug.


That rug really tied the room together...
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 25, 2010, 08:42:34 AM

That rug really tied the room together...

they peed on it too.

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on January 25, 2010, 10:33:31 AM
I got the fuk out of LA.  It was being overrun by German nihilists.

They stole my fuking rug.

Given that you said the other day that you want to bin Gerrard and build a team round Dirk, it wouldnt surprise me if you were from the moon!

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 25, 2010, 03:57:50 PM
WTF are you waffling on about now.
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Irish_Mark on January 25, 2010, 04:10:09 PM
they peed on it too.



They peed on your fcukin' rug, Dude...
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 25, 2010, 04:17:38 PM
They peed on your fcukin' rug, Dude...

They peed on my fu.cking rug.

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on January 25, 2010, 05:33:07 PM
I Was talking about your other comments, about building a team without SG because apparently he has lost it, and we should know when to sell, yet Dirk sums up all that is great and is wonderful.

A couple of things there superfan

1.) They are the SAME age
2.) Dont be so ridiculous, it is an insult to someone with Stevies talent that he has to play with a bandy legged cart horse with no pace, no ability and no idea of anything around him other than Rafa shouting instructions.  And if you are talking about heart and spirit, next time you bother to watch a game, count how many times Stevie runs past Dirk either attacking or defending, then tell me who has more heart and pride for the club! 
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: Irish_Mark on January 25, 2010, 07:16:17 PM
Difference for me is Dirk isn't feeling sorry for himself
Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: the dude abides on January 25, 2010, 07:37:25 PM
yes.

And for that goal the other night, did you see Dirk's world class chest-off, to Aquilini, from Reina's long downfield clearance.

World class.

If Gerrard, or Henry, or Ronaldo, had done such a chest-off, we'd never have heard the end of it, in the papers for weeks.

Title: Re: What will it take for this fool to go?
Post by: centenaryjonny on January 26, 2010, 11:46:42 AM
Yeah, you're right Dirk is great!

Stevie should be moved on!

Put them both up for sale tommorw and see you we get more money for and who goes to the bigger club!

My guess would be Stevie to Barca, Dirk to Villa, maybe City, simply for the fact that they seem to be buying the rejects of the teams they are trying to beat.

Stevie has been the best midfielder in the world over the last 10 years.  Without a doubt, and he has been carrying an average team for the majority of that.

Dirk has not been the best anything in the last 10 years, and for the last 4 of them has been a very average part of that average team.

10 years from now, Stevie will be remembered as a true great, a Dalglish, a Souness or a Yeats.  Dirk will be a Ray Houghton. 

And before you slate Stevie too much, I dont think your precious 'Go Compare' man would have kept his job in 2005 had it not been for Stevie.   Certainly he would not be there now had Stevie moved on to win things. 

Do you just say things to see if half the people bite, you cant believe some of the stuff you come out with?