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Messages - Edward224

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Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2017/18
« on: August 14, 2017, 07:56:34 PM »
With no further additions at best we'll finish 6th and at worst 8th or 9th.

We are light years behind both manc clubs and spurs in particular.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Summer Transfer Window 2017
« on: August 14, 2017, 07:53:55 PM »
Don't worry haven't left, just been on holiday for a few weeks.

Depressed really. With this squad and especially this defence best we can hope for is 6th.

How can we not buy any freaking defenders?! Coutinho as well.............

IMO we'll sell Coutinho and have no incomings. Milner will be like a new signing in central midfield, Kent and Woodburn will replace Coutinho and other b.s. that will be fed to us.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Summer Transfer Window 2017
« on: July 21, 2017, 12:26:29 AM »
I can't see the point in upping the Keita bid by just £4M to £70M, as seems to be a mooted possibility.

Surely we either go to at least £75M, or just try and preserve a relationship with Red Bull, and attempt to get first refusal for next Summer, and at the same time move on to another target so we don't miss out all together.

Likewise with Van Dijk. Do we make one big effort and then move on if not successful?

If not, we risk being arguably weaker than last season with Lucas having left, unless Sakho gets a reprieve. Even then, we could do with upgrading Klavan, if not Lovren.

I feel we'll put in one last bid for both............I think we stand a better chance of getting Van Dijk though.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Summer Transfer Window 2017
« on: July 20, 2017, 05:42:27 PM »
Looks like we're getting Robertson from Hull for £8-10M as our new left back.

Maybe he's the Plan B and the Plan A has yet to be revealed, or maybe Klopp plans to utilise Milner alongside Robertson for this season and look to upgrade next Summer as he sees the spine of the team, midfield and at least one central defender as more pressing an issue.

What worries me with lowering the importance of the full back positions this Summer, is that one of the ways we can tighten up defensively is to stop the supply from wide areas into the box, as that's a key area where we struggle to defend. Having a quality left back that doesn't get caught out of position, who is able to avoid giving away cheap free kicks in wide areas, likewise cheap corners and understands the importance of covering his centre half in behind and around the back, would help tighten up our defence to a worthwhile degree.

I'm not saying Robertson can't be that. He may well push on in his development and prove to be capable of providing what we need, it just feels like some positions are trying to be fixed 'on the cheap' in comparison to other positions, even taking into account the cost differential between certain positions.

Milner will still be our No.1 left back with Robertson pushing him.

With Stewart going the other way for £8m it's basically a free transfer, so can't complain for a decent, youngish player who has proven to be a good and potential to be very good left back for hardly not outlay.

People who I speak to say he reminds them of Steve Finnan a little bit, can't say I've seen enough of Robertson to judge that comparison though.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Summer Transfer Window 2017
« on: June 24, 2017, 03:59:25 PM »
We're not contemplating is all paper talk. We have no interest.

Clichy is no better than Milner and Milner isn't even a proper left back which shows you how badly I think Clichy is, so I don't think he'd be a good signing. But it is worrying we're not looking to sign a top class left back.

Jurgen has tracked Keita for a lot longer than one year. He is Jurgen's Number 1 target signing and wants him badly. However I rate our chances of signing him at around 20%.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Summer Transfer Window 2017
« on: June 22, 2017, 06:00:02 PM »
Thanks for that. I had no idea I was thinking that.  ;D

The point you make about Salah 'cutting in' was more to do with my liking for Lemar, as was having no need to cover for the AFCON absence of two players, as we're hoping both Mane and AN Other would be integral parts of the team by the AFCON of 2019.

Salah is left footed, but has predominantly played on the right cutting in, which he is less likely to do if played on the left as you suggest, hence a left footer, who plays on the left - Lemar.

Mane's right footed, so for them to both cut in, they'd have to switch sides, which is more likely to suit Salah, than Mane. That issue doesn't arise with Lemar.

Kent may be off to Bournemouth, especially if their £6M offer is genuine, but I'd add Harry Wilson and Sheyi Ojo to Woodburn. Solanke's an interesting one. He could prove to be a real shrewd buy, and will possibly lessen the need for an outright striking replacement should Sturridge go.

It would be nice to think we'll add at least one wide player to help soften the absences of our two AFCON absentees (Lemar would only leave one replacement required), but I'll wait until I see more evidence before hoping that would be the case.

Salah's time at Chelsea is irrelevant. As was suggested at the time, it was more a case of Mourinho stopping us getting him, than Mourinho actually wanting him to be a part of the 1st team in the same way he would have been with us.
He was hardly likely to displace Hazard or Willian, or even Schurle in Mourinho's thinking.
On that basis his time at Chelsea is no indicator of what he might do for us.

It'll be interesting to see how he fits in alongside Mane and if there is a compromise required from either player in terms of their most effective position. 

If I'm honest I don't think we'd necessarily target another striker if we did sell Sturridge. I think by targetting goalscoring wide players, who can play centrally at times, Klopp seems to be moving away from reliance on strikers as the goal supplier.

So. Gomez. Does he stay or go out on loan?

And what is your grapevine telling you about another centre half? Shirley that has to be a priority, no matter what happens to Gomez.

We have another 3 transfer windows  to think about cover for AFCON. So either the likes of Ojo and Woodburn Step up during that time or we will get another wide player in. I don't think that because he is African that specifically shouldn't dissuade us from signing one - if he is of high quality and he is.

I get your point about Salah normally plays in Mane's position but I feel that the free movement of that front line i.e. your point about not needing another striker as they can go central, is an important one.

I do hope Gomez does stay because I want to see how a fully fit Gomez does here and he can also cover in the full back roles too. So I'd definitely give him an opportunity.

I don't know about any names but seeing at the trouble we had of wanting a centre back in Van Dijk I do think Jurgen will attempt to buy one whether it is Van Dijk or not and I certainly think we need one.

What troubles me more is the lack of noise of any left backs coming in. Moreno is 99% definitely leaving. We've rejected an £11m offer from Napoli as we want £15m. I don't know why but he has plenty of suitors including 3 teams in the PL!!

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Summer Transfer Window 2017
« on: June 22, 2017, 05:47:49 PM »
A dilemma, indeed:

Mohamed Salah and the big dilemma Jurgen Klopp will need to solve at Liverpool

"Egyptian journalist Marwan Ahmed, who has followed Salah’s career closely, was adamant when he spoke to the ECHO about where Salah should play. “Right wing, that’s his best position," he said.

Despite being heavily left-footed, Salah prefers the right side to allow him to cut in and shoot off his stronger side. In his two seasons with Roma he has lined up on the left in just one game.

It's not really a dilemma though.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Summer Transfer Window 2017
« on: June 20, 2017, 06:11:50 PM »
Salah is a superb signing. Stop thinking of the player you saw at Chelsea and think his numbers and performances in the last 18 months.

He is even faster than Mane - FASTER!!!!!!!!!

He will play on the left side of the attack cutting in with Mane cutting in from the other side and they can alternate sides too which would also surprise defences.

Unless we sell Sturridge we are not after another striker.

I too like Lemar but he'd cost a lot more than £25m. I also get your point that both would be going to AFCON but we'll likely get another wide player next summer and also have the likes of Kent, Woodburn, Solanke etc that could cover us.

Salah is/was Klopp's Number 2 signing this summer. Keita is his first but that ain't happening.

Shame Klopp's other targets in Keita and Van Dijk are off the table. With those 3 and a left back and Salah I'm certain we'd have won the league.

Now I have my doubts we'll reach top 4.  But Salah is an excellent signing never the less. 

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2016/17
« on: April 16, 2017, 05:15:29 PM »
Six points from Stoke and WBA........points in the bag rather than games in hand all day long.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Summer Transfer Window 2017
« on: March 23, 2017, 06:27:53 PM »
Laughing at the news we're competing with Man Utd to sign Jose we have the ambition to get that type of proven top class player.

We'll offer him around 2/3rds of what man utd will offer and wonder what went wrong.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2016/17
« on: March 18, 2017, 10:20:33 PM »
Balanced teams in PL era:-

92 - 94 - Man Utd

97 - 98 - Arsenal

98 - 2002 - Man Utd

2000 - 2005 - Arsenal

2004 - 2008 - Chelsea

2007 - 2011 - Man Utd

2009 - 2010 - Chelsea

2013 - 2015 - Chelsea

2016 - 2017 - Chelsea

See the coincidences?

Non balanced teams:-

1992 - 1995 - Blackburn

1994 - 1998 - Liverpool

1992 - 1994 - Arsenal

1999 - 2004 - Liverpool

2004 - 2009 - Liverpool

2005 - 2017 - Arsenal

1999 - 2004 - Chelsea

2010 - 2014 - Man City

2013 - 2017 - Liverpool

2011 - 2017 - Man Utd

Spot the differences? Yes those teams won trophies but won it in the main due to individual talent and either through defensive nous or attacking flair not both. Or didn't win anything due to lacking one of the other.

So please stop the boll ocks that we were ever balanced under Rafa. If you think we were balanced then I suggest you read the definition of that it means.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2016/17
« on: March 18, 2017, 10:12:19 PM »
Another interesting, though obvious observation from Giles:

John Giles: Klopp and Guardiola wouldn't know how to put a basic defensive training drill together

Though maybe not as glamourous, and even seen as an inconvenience by some, a defence is as vital as an attack to a team's success. We are not Barcelona, and the PL, more than any other league is not La Liga.

One way or the other Klopp needs to sort that out. It cost us the title under Rodgers, and ultimately his job. It's why Evans' team, the best team going forward in the league at the time, were also 'barely rans'.

Yes because his Dortmund team was defensively frail...............He needs to be backed in the transfer market and he'll get what you are seeking. He brought in Matip who's been a very good signing and from August to December Milner at left back was solid. If had been given the left back he wanted then we'd have been more balanced. There is a reason he's not playing Moreno. His mistake was giving Mignolet another chance and Karius really needs another 12-18 months to really see how he develops.

But he needs backing in the transfer market. He can only teach old dogs so many tricks because no matter how much you try and polish a turd, at the end of the day a turd will always be a turd.

But I find it amusing certain people are already turning on him because trust me when I tell you this he can walk into any club in the world as manager tomorrow and I even said to Martin that when he arrived I was worried about his legacy because he can walk into any job in the world but he chose us. But as this club are so inept he is frankly our last hope of ever doing anything notably again otherwise we'll turn into Everton. I don't trust us and partly wished he went to the mancs or Barcelona or real or Bayern so his talent would match the success he'd have their. With us he can use all his talent in the world, but if we refuse to sign his No.1 target players then he can only do so much.

P.S. I also have to laugh at Dude saying we were ever balanced with Rafa as manager. We were totally negative team 'sh it on a stick football' was what it was called. If we were truly a balanced team from 2006 to 2009 we'd have won a league title. As the mancs were truly a balanced team then with defensive nous matched with attacking flair. We have defensive nous but no attacking flair - we only had Torres and Gerrard. Balanced my bottom.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Summer Transfer Window 2017
« on: March 18, 2017, 09:58:57 PM »
I'd rather keep Can as back up then sell him and have to buy 2 midfielders in the summer. As we haven't funds for transfers and wages for buying to midfielders this summer.

But I do agree he has been poor. But he and Milner are adequate back ups for Henderson, Lallana, Wijnaldum and another. So I'd give him next season and if not improvement sell him in 2018.

For me Can isn't a DM he is a CM and in that role isn't as good as the aforementioned 3, but as a back up is good enough. So I'd rather spend the cash on one midfielder than split it on two midfielders.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2016/17
« on: March 13, 2017, 10:05:56 PM »
for long parts of the game, Burnley looked like the home team.

Liverpool, at home, despite paying five times the annual wage bill of Burnley (166 million to 33 million), were resorting to winding the clock down, by taking the ball to corners during the final ten minutes.

Indeed Burnley could/should have equalised at the death, when our dozy defender was caught ball-watching.

I would lose no sleep, if Klopp left in the summer.

Simply nowhere near good enough.

You on drugs? Klopp is our only hope of achieving something of real significance. He needs to be backed in the transfer market and get his No.1 target players no matter the fee or wage.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2016/17
« on: March 11, 2017, 11:38:00 PM »

It seems to me that we’re still in a place where the people who run the club see football as just another type of business where the same rules of risk apply as they do in any other. Ayre’s replacement, Peter Moore, whose CV highlights include positions with Microsoft, Sega and EA Sports, is unlikely to view it any differently. Well I’m no business expert, but you don’t have to be “the Fernando Torres of finance” (in fact, it’s probably better if you’re not) to know that, in football, the risk is in not spending money if you want to be successful. That doesn’t mean you have to chuck it around like confetti, just be prepared to meet the opportunity cost when it comes along.

Nobody is expecting Pogba-levels of spending, but the club is competing in an environment where last summer Manchester United, who had already finished ahead of Liverpool for the past two seasons, brought in some people’s pick for the best manager in the game and broke the world transfer record with an outlay of £90m on a single player, all to win the League Cup and scrape into the top-4 picture (so far: other trophies may yet be added, of course). Add to that the signings of Mkhitaryan and Bailly, and this was a spending-spree necessary just to get to where Liverpool appear to be aiming, a club which in contrast was happy once again for the bulk of its major transfer spending to come from departures, in particular those of Christian Benteke, Jordon Ibe and Joe Allen.

I make no claims to be capable of running a football club but it’s a genuine wonder to me that “value” is as much of a concern to the hierarchy of Liverpool as it apparently is, with the club supposedly one of the top ten richest in the world. Surely they can’t think that Pogba’s signing was intended to represent “value”, outside of the usual inflated shirt sales claims? Maybe that’s a bad example given that Manchester United are frequently winning games at the moment in spite of Pogba rather than because of him, but the transfers of Cristiano Ronaldo and Gareth Bale to Real Madrid and, closer to home, Luis Suárez to Barcelona were very similar in that they were solely designed to bring on-pitch success to the purchasing clubs. Value? Suárez cost north of £60m and Ronaldo/Bale in excess of £80m in transfer fees alone, before you even start to skirt the matter of agent’s cuts, bonus payments, signing-on fees and weekly wages. The best don’t come cheap, the biggest don’t care.

I can only imagine what Liverpool’s current hierarchy would make of Manchester United’s decision to buy the 23 year-old Ferdinand from Leeds United. That fee (£30m+) was mind-blowing for the time and made him the world’s most expensive defender. When Paul Tomkins’ Transfer Price Index was applied to take account of transfer market inflation in the meantime back in 2015, it became £82m. In no way, shape or form did Ferdinand represent “value” in the traditional sense of the word, and when he eventually left 12 years later the club didn’t even receive a fee for him, instead having to make do with the 6 Premier League titles, 3 League Cups and Champions League he helped them win. The same will also soon be true of Wayne Rooney, signed for £25m as a teenager in 2004 (also £82m in 2015 money according to Tomkins) who will likely command a vastly reduced fee when he leaves Old Trafford. I doubt they’ll care.

Perhaps all of this is just a refusal on my part to live in the present. The truth is that FSG represent the inevitable conclusion of a journey that both football in general and Liverpool in particular have been on over the past 25 years or so. Arsenal and Wenger, who himself has never seemed particularly enamoured with modern football, have been on it too. Liverpool’s current owners likely wouldn’t have even had the opportunity to buy the club, much less at a knockdown price, had their predecessors not taken so long to adjust to the new reality represented by the Premier League. Everything else flows from that. Almost three decades of subtle, creeping mismanagement, never quite all-out collapse (well, once, almost) but nonetheless consistently operating at a level inferior (often vastly so) to what rivals have been doing in the same period followed and has long since culminated in death by a thousand cuts to another of those famous Bill Shankly mantras, one of the few not already laid to waste by the coming of the Premier League era, namely the one about building Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility and conquering the bloody world.

The resulting mistakes, inadequacies and near-misses have seen to it that ideas of the club dominating anything have long since gone the same way as notions that well-paid footballers not giving their all for the public are a menace who should be put in jail, that the various appendages of players belong to the club rather than themselves, and beliefs in everybody working for the same goal and having a share of the rewards. In fact, the only part of modern football with which a reincarnated Shankly would likely be familiar is that he would still no doubt close the curtains if Everton were playing in his back garden. The most striking change he would find, of course, is to his professed belief that directors are only there to sign the cheques. In the first instance, this idea presupposes that said directors are actually “there” in the first place rather than 3,000 miles away on another continent, and in any case, SEPA transfers are the preferred way of doing business nowadays. More importantly, it vastly underestimates the power of modern owners and their assorted underlings.

Rafa Benítez once said of Chelsea that “the key to them is Abramovich”, and he was right. In the decade or so before the Russian’s arrival, they had admittedly already moved from being a club purchased by its previous owner for £1 and with a carpark behind one of the goals as the Premier League era dawned to regular contenders at the top end of the table, but it was the billionaire’s purchase of the club in 2003 that started them on the path towards being one of the biggest names in modern football who, despite protestations to the contrary, now have going on 20 years’ worth of serious history to their name defined primarily by silverware and famous European nights in April and May. We all said that Chelsea won the lottery the day Abramovich showed up on the doorstep of Stamford Bridge with his billions, but their fortune was every bit as vested in his willingness to actually spend it as the number of pounds and pence to his name.

That’s one side of the coin, the transformation of a club whose most expensive signing was Paul Furlong as recently as 1994 to one which can routinely demand the attention of the world’s best managers and players. The other side is that, at their worst, the suits in the boardroom now have the capability, in a sport whose relatively recent enrichment would surely be far beyond the comprehension of a time-traveller from the 1960’s or 1970’s, to literally destroy football clubs, or at least inflict serious damage. I wonder what Shankly would make of Leeds United, for example, one of the club’s greatest rivals during his time in charge who are still slowly working their way back from the cataclysmic events wrought by the mismanagement of a businessman in a suit named Ridsdale (who, incidentally, almost repeated the trick later at Cardiff and is now an advisor at another of Shankly’s clubs, Preston), and whose current owner’s highlights include sacking 7 managers in his first 2 years of ownership, brief disqualification from running the club after being found guilty of tax evasion and another suspension upcoming for sanctioning an illegal payment?

And he would surely be downright baffled at the power now wielded by the likes of Jorge Mendes (I wouldn’t know where to begin), Mino Raiola (sufficiently cocksure of his place in the world to call no less a manager than Klopp “a piece of shed” earlier this season) and Aidy Ward (who was instrumental in an 18 year-old deciding that he had outgrown one of the most storied football clubs in the world). This is the era of money and moneymen, and the idea of players, manager and supporters forming a “holy trinity” into which the suits daren’t step is now as antiquated as terraces, tight shorts and perms.

Liverpool’s owners hold the fate of their club in their hands to an extent that would have been unimaginable and maybe even horrific to Shankly, and the fear, of course, is that their definition of “success” has already been achieved and then some. Having bought Liverpool for in and around £300m back in October 2010, they now preside over a club valued by Forbes last year at over £1bn. Their investment was shrewd, a massive return already pretty much guaranteed. With that being the case, and regardless of how much revenue is being generated by the club, their approach to running Liverpool has every appearance of seeking to minimise risk above all else. Even Arsenal, a club at which the amount being spent on players has similarly long been a hot topic amongst supporters, have had a number of transfer windows where the amount spent massively exceeded anything recouped (2014/15 and 2016/17 in particular).

With regard to Liverpool, I find it hard to shake the feeling that very few major transfers during FSG’s stewardship have been completed without a comparable sum, or the prospect thereof, coming the other way. The £23m signing of Suárez in January 2011 came a few months after Javier Mascherano left for £18m; the same month, Andy Carroll arrived for £35m on the same night that Fernando Torres left for £50m; the following summer, the £19m signing of Stewart Downing was offset somewhat by the departure of Raul Meireles for £12m; Sakho arrived for £18m in the same season that Andy Carroll left for £17m; the summer of 2014 saw a host of players signed primarily out of the £65m fee received for the departing Suárez; Christian Benteke (£32m) and Roberto Firmino (£29m) arrived as Raheem Sterling (£50m) left, Mané (£34m) and Wijnaldum (£25m) as Benteke (£27m), Ibe (£15m) and Allen (£13m) departed. Only Allen’s arrival for £15m in the summer of 2012 really bucks the trend in any meaningful way, and most of the original fee was recouped from Stoke this season.

That feeling, I assume, is why Klopp was moved to explicitly discuss the matter last Friday. The last time the club had a manager of this stature guiding it, he was far more vociferous than the German regarding the need to sign players. Liverpool’s current boss has been more circumspect, but I don’t believe for one second that a coach as obviously driven, talented and passionate about the game as Klopp doesn’t want to work with the very best and to win. Speaking of Pogba’s transfer earlier in the season, he said that “other clubs can go out and spend more money and collect top players. I want to do it differently. I would even do it differently if I could spend that money”. However, he went on to qualify this by saying that “if I spend money, it is because I am trying to build a team, a real team. Barcelona did it. You can win championships, you can win titles, but there is a manner in which you want it”.

If the transfer business of Barcelona, who haven’t been afraid to spend to spend huge sums over the years on the likes of Suárez, Neymar, Fabregas, Sanchez, Villa, Mascherano, Ibrahimovic and others to reinforce what they already had, is a benchmark for Klopp, then it’s safe to say that he is not adverse in principle to "spending big" on players he wants. Mané and Wijnaldum certainly weren’t cheap. The question then becomes whether he receives the backing this summer that he seems to be counting on (“We all have the same plan: sporting director, scouting department, owners, myself…we want to make this club as big and as successful as possible…Will it be a similar transfer window as last summer when we broke even? I don’t think it is possible. Now there will be a few other faces”).

We can only hope so because, regardless of how disappointing the performances have been over the past couple of months, the majority of the current squad, which took 43 points from 19 games to start the season, should surely be retained and reinforced with three or four players of the highest quality. That, it seems to me, is not just how you “build a team, a real team”, it’s how you build the kind of squad required to support it. Sakho, maybe Lucas and, the way the signs are pointing, Daniel Sturridge are likely to be the only major exits from the club this summer, along with Markovic who in any case will have been on loan for two years by then, that’s if Barcelona leave it a little longer to go all-in for Coutinho and the club can convince Emre Can to sign a new deal. Breaking even with the income generated by those four is unlikely to be enough in itself, especially given that the style of football Klopp favours tends to rely more heavily on individual ability than, say, Conte’s Chelsea, where perceived weak links like David Luiz or Victor Moses have been able to form key cogs in a system built on defensive organisation (Luiz in Klopp’s system, for example, with Jordan Henderson frequently providing the only midfield protection, would surely be a different proposition to the one who has Kanté and Matić in front and a centre-back either side on a weekly basis). The talent required for it to function properly is likely, therefore, to come at a premium. All of this is not even considering the longer term issue of what happens if/when we reach a point where the manager wants to keep everyone during a transfer window but would like to add a couple more.

Klopp’s Liverpool, occasionally dodgy defence and all, has frequently looked as good as anyone during his time in charge. To do that consistently is a tall order which will only be achieved by showing real ambition in actions as well as words, the kind of ambition that other top clubs are likely to be showing. Failure to take advantage of this opportunity will only result in more restlessness as the club falls further behind its rivals. Whether or not a top-4 finish is secured between now and May, this really does look like being the defining summer to end all defining summers.

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