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Messages - Ageing Stick Insect

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Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 21, 2013, 06:50:53 PM »
C'mon ASI at least have a sense of humour?
I have Ed but I just didn't find it funny.

Anyway regards tonight, I think (much as I'd like us to
win and go through) that we're in danger of turning the
great European comebacks into a cliche, a panacea to
excuse mismanagement and a detachment from reality.
Bit harsh. We've had great comebacks under Paisley, Dalglish and Rafa. Hardly mismanagement.

Judging from the buildup and words of the gaffer I'm not
in the slightest bit optimistic, feeling that the sensible
approach would have been resting key players (Gerrard in
particular) and taking a 1-0 against the Swans. What I've
noted this season is that the decision making around important
fixtures when he has to juggle against the schedule has been
highly suspect and rarely paid off.
Gerrard has not missed a minute of league footie this season and seems stronger than ever. I think that 5-0 win will give them a real boost but even so I would be surprised if we progressed. But if we give it a good shot then that's all we can ask of the players. They're experienced enough to know to keep things tight. Agger, Carragher and Skrtel have all played for their countries after all.

I see lads stepping up tonight and actually fancy us (with the
help of the crowd) to bag 2 but the chickens will come home to
roost in a lapse of concentration (which we have seen consistently
all season) and the post-match script will be:

"I can't fault the dedication and commitment of those players out there tonight"
"I'm proud of each and every one of them"
"The crowd were absolutely magnificent"
"I'm disapponted for the fans"

"Since I came into this place"
"Young Raheem"
"I've always said this season will be a learning curve"
"It is important now for the group"
"Going forward"

Again, I'll eat humble pie if I'm wrong and feel it would be a
big achievement for the gaffer were he to be successful tonight!

Rafa had a set number of statements for the press. IThey were quite monotonous. I'd much rather hear someone speak from the heart even if it doesn't always go down well with everyone. Who knows how this team will cope with the crowd if they turn it on. If it affected Chelsea then they could well be affected. I remember Juventus lost an early goal in 2005 because the crowd so affected their concentration. We do have a special crowd and ground. More than we sometimes appreciate.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 21, 2013, 05:55:23 PM »
i'm hoping obviously that we win tonight. Do i trust Rodgers to pick the right team? Nope, not me.

When the team is announced please post your thoughts on it and what changes you would have made.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 21, 2013, 05:50:28 PM »
Dunno, imo his latest Press Conference was impenetrable gobbledygook

"The squad got to two cup finals last season but it was broken up.
Players left. I moved some on. Last year the Carling Cup was a clear
priority for Liverpool. For me, it couldn't have been. I didn't have the
depth of squad. As much as I wanted it to be, I never felt it was going
to be that sort of season unless we could get the reinforcements. This
has been a great learning curve and we need to keep building the group."


I seriously have no idea what he's on about.

Just an embarassment ahead of an important European tie.

It's perfectly clear to me. Players left before he took over and he didn't want others. He couldn't treat the CC as a priority with such a small squad. He's learning as the season progresses and more quality players are required. Crystal clear!

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 21, 2013, 05:46:25 PM »
You keep saying 'minds made up' as though it's a fact. It's not, it's just your opinion. This is what I don't understand. There's no camps, or at least I haven't made a conscious decision to align myself with some group or other.
Yes it might just be an opinion but it's not far from the truth.

What I find interesting, is 'those of us', just to keep the 'camp' thing running, who as yet aren't as impressed with Rodgers as 'others of us' don't mind either way that not everyone sees things the same way as we do. We don't question your support, even though you seem satisfied with our position and seem much more easily able to overlook some things in order to accentuate other things. We don't accuse you of accepting mediocrity, whilst we claim to want much more for our club than 'you lot' do. (Jeez, this segregating nonsense is getting tedious). On the other hand, we're getting told we're wrong, our minds keep being attempted to be altered, our opinions changed to suit yours, in other words, "we're wrong, your right, so we need to change our opinions accordingly".
And then there's the little barbs and digs aswell, just like the one you threw in, Ray.

I have no argument with balanced opinions Tes. The trouble is some are not balanced. They're polarised and extreme. Others are fine and I have no problem with someone having a different opinion to me. And I don't recall ever telling you you were wrong with an opinion.

The reason you find it easier to 'take the rough with the smooth' and hence feel more able 'to give him time' is that as individuals you have the belief in him. What you base that on is your own personal reasoning. It's exactly the same thing that those of who aren't yet sold on him do. We have our own personal reasoning that doesn't produce belief.

Belief is one thing. Blind hope another.

Mine isn't blind hope. It's hope and everyone should have that.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 21, 2013, 05:35:32 PM »
Ray, I don't see any 'just' in conceding too many goals. I realise we all see football differently, but defending is 50% of the overall equation.
So presumably the other 50% is attack. That's very black and white Tes. I see it differently but can't put percentages to it.

You ask if it's beyond him. That I don't know and can't and won't judge until I see any evidence of him attempting it. We're as open now as we were on the first day of the season. WBA gave us a sample of that.

I won't judge him until 10 games into next season when he's been able to get a new defence sorted out. The WBA games were both one-offs and are unlikely to be repeated. I would draw your attention to the GF and GA tables. We're 4th and 8th respectively. We've actually scored more than City and only let in 3 more than Utd. It's how they've been conceded that have caused us to drop points but if you compare our performances now to earlier in the season we're playing better football. Utd, for all their good players and experienced manager were conceding almost every game earlier in the season. Was Ferguson criticised? No. So Rogers shouldn't either especially with his inexperience.

Whilst we're scoring more (with that I'm happy), we've regressed defensively by as much as we've improved in scoring goals.
Last season it was 47-40. This season it's 49-34 with 12 to go. We've already scored more than all of last season. We could still only concede 6 in our last 12 games but it will probably be a bit higher. I'm sure our GD will be more than 7 which indicates progress. Also, we now have the same number of points after 27 as last season but then we only picked up another 11 points. That WILL be bettered this season. Another pointer to progress.

Even is Suarez does dry up Sturridge and others will score. of that I'm sure.

I don't see a sign of an attempted improvement or that the manager has identified it as a problem.
For example, look how he talks about possession. "Teams that average 79% of possession win games". Fine.
However, it's what we do with our 79% in comparison with what the opposition do with their 21%. If we don't score with our 79% we need to be able to defend when they have the ball for 21%.
Possession alone isn't enough. You have to defend both with and without the ball, and you can't defend with possession as your only defensive plan.
Won't disagree with any of that.

As for minds made up. I'm not sure what you can mean. I base my opinion on what I'm seeing. If our defending improves and we concede less and drop fewer points, whilst continuing to score more regularly than last season, my opinion will change because what I'm seeing has changed. Ergo my opinion is based on what I'm seeing and not seeing.
Yours is a flexible mind so I don't put you in the same camp as other here. I won't name them. We all know who they are. That's what I mean about minds made up. They won't budge and in dude's case with continue to insult the manager even though he criticises people here when they supposedly insult him.

Personally I couldn't give a monkey's whether it's Rodgers' name or anybody else's on the door of the manager's office. All I want is for whoever that man may be, to do the neccesary for the club, and conduct himself appropriately as manager of LFC.
Now as far as belief goes, and that's a different thing to my opinion, at last for me, I have nothing to base belief on, as yet. I make a point of putting as yet, because if things change, and I'm hoping they will, and for the better, then there will be something to base belief upon.
I will back the manager too unless it's obvious he hasn't the backing of the team. The Kop is a pretty good barometer. Not heard much discontent from them after some disappointing games. But I do believe in Rogers. maybe that's the difference between us.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 21, 2013, 05:12:08 PM »
I hear the Pope is out of a job.  Maybe we could put feelers out and see if the oul boy would fancy taking over the Anfield job, come May time.    Like I mean, if empty CVs are all that you need to get the Liverpool job these days, then I might even put my own in.

And like the present boss, when things are not going great, you ask for belief and faith.  Pope would be well suited, because he is big when it comes to the faith business.


Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 20, 2013, 11:38:04 PM »
As for turning it around, the Mancs were in a worse state than we are when he joined. He joined them in 86, and they hadn't challenged for the league in any serious way under Docherty, Sexton or Atkinson. They'd been relegated in '74, returning in '76 and they did finish 2nd in 1980 and 4th in 1986, but were only a Cup team.

Then given we're in a better position than Manure back then Rogers could well succeed at Anfield were so many others failed. Look at Bob Paisley's record. Who would have thought it could better Shankly's? No-one outside Anfield had ever heard of him. Everyone thought we had a great chance of the league with Rafa. It never happened for whatever reason.

I really feel disappointed I have to defend a Liverpool manager to Liverpool supporters. I've said all I'm going to on this because so many minds are already made up. Those of you in the anti camp can get on pulling Rogers apart for every mistake made on the pitch. Those of us who believe in him will give him time and will take the rough with the smooth.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 20, 2013, 11:30:46 PM »
Ray, you disappoint me with that comparison. If we had a manager with Taggart's pre-United record that would would be a basis for believing the man had something about him as a manager.

My cynicism says there is simply no comparison between Rodgers and Taggart or Rodgers' pre-Liverpool record and Taggart's pre-Manc one.

You disappoint me Tes. We also had a manager who had an impressive record before joining us. Did he win us the title? No. What went on before might be a guide but there are no hard and fast rules.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 20, 2013, 11:27:59 PM »
I think that, once again, demonstrates your wilful ignorance
on the matter a) Ferguson broke the 15 year Celtic/Rangers stranglehold
on the Scottish league and ended a 25 year wait for the title at
He may have succeeded with Aberdeen but he came very close to being sacked at Manure. If he had he may well have sunk without trace. There was a huge element of luck in him staying because Utd had a lucky break enabling them to win the Cup in '90.

b) of course beating Bayern Munich and Real Madrid in the
final en route to the European Cup Winners cup was a minor achievement.

Is that the equivalent of the much derided Europa League. Okay so he won that 5 years after arriving. So he's granted all those years but you won't give our manager a single season. I'm speechless!

I think the point that you miss is likelihood in terms of success at a big club.
You're not wasting your time, it's just that your argument is weak. I'm
in camp Ed btw.

Ed, you're just not giving him a chance. That is so unlike a true Liverpool supporter. He's got us playing some brilliant football. We're just conceding too many goals. Do you honestly think it's beyond him to tighten things up at the back? My argument isn't weak. It's just that I'm trying to convince people whose minds are already made up so it's an argument I can never win.

Incidentally, this is taken from a site detailing his record at the club. Ferguson's first season...

United finished 11th in the division, a massive 30 points behind champions Everton and were knocked out of the FA Cup at home to eventual winners Coventry City.

Chances are Liverpool will finish higher than 11th is Rogers first season.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 20, 2013, 07:17:17 PM »
given Chris Bascoombe's bias, and his role in the dismissal of Benitez, I wouldn't give too much creedence to anything that the lad has to say about football.   It's all gone pear-shaped since Benitez was sacked.
His ALLEGED bias. Only by you dude. And no, it started to go pear-shaped long before Rafa left but you're too blind to have seen it.

And as for being blind - Ray, you speak of the time it took for Ferguson to turn United around - but you omit to recall that Ferguson had a very strong CV, prior to his appointment to the United job.  He broke up the Rangers/Celtic stranglehold in Scotland.  Indeed, he even conquered Europe, by beating Real Madrid in the Cup Winners Cup.  Amazing CV with little Aberdeen.
Little Aberdeen that were thrashed at Anfield 4-0. If he was so good why did it take 4 years at OT to win anything? He was on the verge of being sacked if he didn't win the cup in 90.

Indeed, I often think of Fergie and Rafa's similarities - Fergie broke up the duopoly in Scotland - and Rafa did the same in Spain.  It takes a special manager to overcome such strong opposition.

Sorry to bring up wee things called facts.   :D

That was the only thing they shared. You can keep moaning all you like about Rogers but he's here for the forseeable future so get used to it. You won't see Rafa back. If you're so keen on him join the Chelsea forum!

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 20, 2013, 07:08:12 PM »
You're simply and deliberately not comparing like with like there.

Ferguson had a track record of winning trophies prior to his
appointment at United.

Competition in Scotland is hardly comparable to England. And let's not forget his Aberdeen side were humbled 4-0 by Liverpool in Nov 1980. And if he had such a good track record why did it take 4 years to get his first trophy? Surely a better manager at the time would have turned things around much quicker.

If it takes a manager with  a 'track record of winning trophies' 4 years to win his next one it shows that a change of club can mean a pause in progress.

This argument that we should only sign a manager with a proven winning record is flawed because all managers start at the bottom in terms of experience and some develop quicker than others. It's not an exact science. Compare Villas Boas at Chelsea and now Spurs. A completely different success rate. He remained the same but the players didn't. So given time Rogers will blend LFC into his style and I'm sure that will bring success. The alternative, as Chris Bascombe alluded to is to bring in someone else and start all over again and in the process will probably lose some key players.

But I guess I've wasted my breath because you're in the dude camp.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 20, 2013, 05:12:26 PM »
Gaffer needs to demonstrate that he can win things.
There's no evidence of that.

It took Ferguson 4 years before Manure won their first trophy - the FA Cup. Imagine if the Utd board had the mentality of some on this board. he would have been out after a season. Two at the most. Why are so many people so impatient?

I'm pasting part of Chris Bascombe's match report. The rest can be found on the link.

 The statistic underlined the view that Rodgers is creating an exciting, attacking unit. If results matched performances, they would have considerably more points. To assess the potential of this team by number-crunching is dangerous, however. Trotting out favourable or unfavourable statistics has become a sport of its own on Merseyside, usually slanted to support an opinion.

It was pointed out before the game that Liverpool were three points worse off than they were after 26 games last season. This win means they have the same number after 27. They collected 13 points in their last 11 league games a year ago. Shall we update weekly for the rest of the season?

These evaluations establish ­nothing. If you support Rodgers, you see and sense the progression. If you do not, only the return of Rafael Benítez or Kenny Dalglish, or the appointment of the next flavour of the month – who would still get ditched in 12 months’ time for not producing magic – will suffice.

That last para encapsulates the opinions on this board perfectly.


I'm reminded of this saying... "There are none so blind as those who will not see".

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 20, 2013, 05:03:13 PM »
I also noticed Tes' increased inclination for cynical remarks. But each to his own an'all. Unfortunately Coutinho won't be eligible for Thursday.

Bugger. Still, their tails will be up after Sunday's performance and with the crowd behind them who knows what will happen.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 17, 2013, 11:06:58 PM »
On second thoughts Ray, you're right. It made a nice change no to have Martin and Edward spitting bile and personally insulting and abusing the players and casting doubts about the manager's abilities.

Let's hope Thursday  can be the 'Zenit' of our season.

You're becoming very cynical Tes. Yes, I hope too that we can take the form from this game into Thursday. Not having Sturridge is a pain though. Hopefully Couthino is eligible.

Liverpool FC, football, sport / Re: Season 2012-2013
« on: February 17, 2013, 11:05:06 PM »
Good result. Swansea rest 7 players though for the Carling Cup next sunday though. So i won't quite start feeling that Rodgers has turned a corner. We can only beat the team infront of us though and we did that capably today.
Just goes to show the lack of depth in the Swansea squad then doesn't it? And why rest your first choice when they won't be playing a game for 7 days? Where's the logic in that? Yes, it was a damn good result after two disappointing ones. MoTD is about to start so I shall enjoy watching it for a change.

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